Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Update: Post 102]

[Finchinator]

art by tiki | VR OP credit goes to PK Gaming | thread run by Finchinator​

Welcome to the second official (first post-DLC) SS OU Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Mandibuzz can be ranked in the A+ tier as a supportive presence, Dragapult can be ranked in the A+ as an offensive presence, and Toxapex can be ranked in the A+ tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council will consist of the following users:

• Eo Ut Mortus
• Finchinator
• Jordy
• Lopunny Kicks
• Sacri'
• suapah
• talah
• TDK
• TPP
• xray

SS OU Ranking Tier List

S Rank:

S Rank

Clefable

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Corviknight

Dragapult

Excadrill

Toxapex

Urshifu

Volcarona

Zeraora

A Rank

Aegislash

Amoonguss

Blissey

Ferrothorn

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Kyurem

Magnezone

Rillaboom

A- Rank

Kommo-o

Mandibuzz

Rhyperior

Rotom-Heat

Skarmory

Tyranitar

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Alakazam

Crawdaunt

Ditto

Gastrodon

Gengar

Mantine

Primarina

Reuniclus

Scizor

Slowbro

Tangrowth

Togekiss

B Rank

Azumarill

Hatterene

Hawlucha

Necrozma

Quagsire

Torkoal

Toxtricity

Urshifu-R

Venusaur

Zarude

B- Rank

Charizard

Cobalion

Conkeldurr

Diggersby

Heracross

Jirachi

Keldeo

Kingdra

Mew

Pelipper

Terrakion

Weezing-Galar

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Bisharp

Chandelure

Grimmsnarl

Krookodile

Mamoswine

Marowak-Alola

Obstagoon

Salazzle

Talonflame

Weavile

Xatu

C Rank

Barraskewda

Chansey

Cloyster

Dracozolt

Gyarados

Ninetales-Alola

Rotom-Wash

Seismitoad

Slowbro-Galar

Slowking

C- Rank

Centiskorch

Comfey

Druddigon

Incineroar

Indeedee

Lycanroc-Dusk

Mienshao

Mimikyu

Snorlax

Rules - Updated as of 12/28/2019

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
• Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
• When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
• Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
• Being OU by usage alone does not guarantee a ranking. We touched on usage not being the sole reason behind viability of anything before, but this is very true here as a lot of things accumulate ladder usage despite not being the best option. Do not mistake the correlation between usage and viability as stronger than it actually is. If you have any further questions about this, please start a conversation with me on here or discord instead of posting it in this thread.
• When new Pokemon, items, abilities, and/or anything else relevant to the OU metagame are released, please hold off on discussing the ranking of the new Pokemon or the rankings of Pokemon that are impacted by these developments until there is approval to discuss the matter by an OU Moderator in this thread.
• Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction or possibly a ban depending on the severity of the offenses.
• If you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide replays of it being used in the metagame and you also should go out of your way to be as thorough as possible in explaining why it has a niche in the metagame (Example of GOOD UR Nomination) -- a vast majority of nominations have been of poor quality historically and we reserve the right to revoke nomination privileges from thread posters at any point in time. If you are in doubt, then feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord prior to nominating a Pokemon and I will give you honest feedback on the post.

Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)

• N/A -- let's try to not have this list grow too much this generation!

I am hoping for a productive discussion to take place in this thread throughout the generation. I am looking forward to seeing the metagame develop in front of our eyes; I find this to be a very cool prospect and it is one of the main reasons why I elect to run this thread. With this said, I am still only one person and our moderation team only consists of so many people, so try not to make our lives too hard here...post intelligently, lurk before commenting if you are new, and do not expect everything to be moderated super closely 24/7. We are all volunteering our time and effort to maintain threads like these, so we expect a certain degree of respect and understanding of this.

 

[GMars]

Update Log:

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August 19th
September 14th
October 7th

 

[Jordy]

Hallo everyone, here's the first update of the SS OU metagame after the drop of Isle of Armor!

New Rankings

S Rank:

S Rank

Cinderace

Clefable

Magearna

Toxapex

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Dragapult

Excadrill

Mandibuzz

Urshifu

Zeraora

A Rank

Blissey

Ferrothorn

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Rotom-Heat

Slowbro

Volcarona

A- Rank

Alakazam

Amoonguss

Corviknight

Kommo-o

Rillaboom

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Gengar

Kyurem

Reuniclus

Skarmory

Tangrowth

Torkoal

Venusaur

B Rank

Azumarill

Chansey

Gastrodon

Kingdra

Magnezone

Mantine

Marowak-Alola

Pelipper

Quagsire

Rhyperior

Togekiss

B- Rank

Aegislash

Bisharp

Charizard

Conkeldurr

Crawdaunt

Diggersby

Ditto

Grimmsnarl

Hatterene

Hawlucha

Heracross

Jirachi

Keldeo

Mew

Rotom-Wash

Scizor

Terrakion

Tyranitar

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Barraskewda

Chandelure

Krookodile

Mamoswine

Necrozma

Obstagoon

Salazzle

Talonflame

Toxtricity

Urshifu-R

Weavile

Weezing-Galar

Xatu

C Rank

Araquanid

Cloyster

Gyarados

Incineroar

Ninetales-Alola

Primarina

Seismitoad

Shuckle

Slowbro-Galar

Snorlax

C- Rank

Jellicent

Mienshao

Mimikyu

Slowking

Below I'll make an effort to explain the reasoning behind most of the significant rankings! I'll particularly focus on Pokemon that were introduced with Isle of Armor, but some other Pokemon that were already available may need some explanation too.

Upon the release of Libero, Cinderace has become one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. With access to coverage moves like Gunk Shot and Zen Headbutt as well as utility moves such as U-turn and even Sucker Punch, Cinderace has taken the tier by storm. Great speed and attack compliment this coverage and Libero phenomenally. It is able to pivot in repeatedly with the right team supoort and Heavy Duty Boots. From there, minimal chip with U-turn on checks can lead to it being an absolute wrecking ball in the mid-late game. Due to this, Cinderace has become one of the top Pokemon in the tier and clearly deserving of the S rank.

Magearna is easily one of the most potent, versatile Pokemon in the metagame. It brings a ridiculous amount of utility to the table, being capable of handling Pokemon like Clefable, Hydreigon, and Mandibuzz, while functioning as a ridiculously strong wallbreaker, primarily using a Choice Specs-boosted Fleur Cannon to put a hole in just about anything. It doesn't end at that, though; Magearna is very versatile to boot. You can run Shift Gear + Calm Mind, Shift Gear + 3 Attacks, Substitute + Calm Mind, Choice Scarf, and Assault Vest, just to name some other options available to Magearna. Magearna's sheer utility, combined with its wallbreaking prowess, and versatility certainly make it worthy of S rank.

Urshifu's impact on the metagame has been very significant. Because of its very short list of answers, the teambuilding landscape of SS OU has been shifted by it very heavily. Many teams have been have to run a physically defensive Clefable or some sturdy core like a Regenerator user + Pokemon that resists Urshifu's STABs, with Toxapex + Mandibuzz being a prime example of that. Urshifu's influence in the tier makes it worthy of A+.

It may be surprising to see Zeraora so high up the VR considering the introduction of solid checks like Amoonguss and Tangrowth, but it has most certainly earned this spot over the course of the past round of WCoP. With the combination of Heavy-Duty Boots, Volt Switch, and Knock Off, Zeraora is really hard to wear down and an incredible offensive pivot that can almost always create momentum as Pokemon like Clefable, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth switch into it. It is the single best Speed control option in the tier, as nothing faster is really that viable right now.

Chansey has outclassed Blissey for the last three generations, but with the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots and Teleport, Blissey is suddenly a fantastic specially defensive pivot that fits onto balance and bulky teams, while being generally regarded as a strong option than Chansey. It synergizes nicely with virtually every fast, but frail, offensive threat such as the aforementioned Zeraora and Cinderace. In addition, it still retains immense special bulk, walling things like Choice Specs Magearna, Nasty Plot Rotom-H, and even Life Orb Clefable, letting you cleanly pivot into revenge killers. This newfound niche makes Blissey one of the better Pokemon in the tier and deserving of being in the A ranks.

Teleport + Regenerator is a godsend for the bulky-Water that once lived almost entirely in the shadow of premier OU bulky-Water Toxapex. Of course, there is still ample competition there, but being able to function as a pivot while checking Pokemon like Excadrill, Cinderace, and Hawlucha goes a long way. Heavy-Duty Boots also bolster the viability of Slowbro, letting it pivot in-and-out repeatedly while ignoring entry hazards. Finally, Future Sight pairs so nicely with Teleport and makes physical threats like Urshifu and Cinderace problematic for balance teams. Slowbro is deserving of its place in the A rank as a stronger option in the metagame because of this.

You know what Volcarona does: it's a very threatening sweeper with Quiver Dance with a generally small amount of checks. Volcarona still does exactly that, it takes advantage of Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Clefable and uses them as setup bait to quickly overwhelm teams lacking Blissey or Toxic Toxapex. With Heavy-Duty Boots, it is significantly less restricted by Stealth Rock itself and also far less tasking to build with, as entry hazard removal is now significantly less important alongside it. People have also found utility in Roost sets, which can check Pokemon such as Clefable and Kyurem. Volcarona's overall threatening nature as a sweeper, the fact that it is not bothered by entry hazards as much as it was previously, and the utility people have found in Roost sets grant it a well-deserved spot in the A ranks.

With NP, Alakazam is back to being a strong OU threat despite losing the mega evolution this generation. With coverage moves like Focus Blast and Dazzling Gleam as well as support options like Recover, Alakazam is easily one of the most threatening Pokemon in OU. Unfortunately, poor physical bulk and being slower than common revenge killers like Dragapult and Zeraora leave it still manageable. However, it still belongs in A- alongside plenty of other strong options.

The current metagame benefits Amoonguss as a bulky Grass- and Poison-type greatly. It's one of the betters pivots into Rillaboom, Choice Specs Magearna, and Zeraora, meaning it has a lot of defensive applicabilities which are very useful right now. Beyond that, it's very hard to switch into Spore from Amoonguss without a Ferrothorn or Mandibuzz. Amoonguss will oftentimes be able to cripple many Pokemon throughout games because of the way it dictates switches. That said, Amoonguss does suffer from relative passivity; once something is put to sleep with Spore, it is significantly less annoying to switch into and will often serve as bait for many Pokemon, particularly Steel-types. It also suffers from a great weakness to Fire- and Psychic-types such as Cinderace, Volcarona, and Alakazam. Regardless of its weaknesses, Amoonguss brings a lot to the current metagame and has rightfully deserved its spot in A-.

Corviknight is still an effective option, but a variety of factors hold it back. Magnezone is new to the tier, offensive threats like Cinderace and Urshifu can muscle past it, and Mandibuzz finds itself a more practical Defog user on many structures due to a Ghost and Dark resistance as well as a neutrality to the Fire type. To make matters even worse, bulkier teams find themselves resorting to Skarmory on occasion, providing Corviknight with another, more direct rival. The signature bird of Generation 8 is still flying, but it is not quite as high as before with a placement in the A- rank, making it more of an average option than a top-tier presence.

Rillaboom has quickly risen to prominence thanks to its new-found access to Grassy Surge and Grassy Glide. Particularly the former is notable, granting Rillaboom a very strong Grassy Terrain-, Choice Band-boosted Wood Hammer, which can quickly overwhelm typical Grass-resistant Pokemon like Mandibuzz, as well as a very strong priority move in Grassy Glide, which is very useful right now to handle Pokemon such as Excadrill and Azumarill offensively. Rillaboom also has access to Knock Off and U-turn, allowing it to punish many checks, even if it can't directly break past them, like Amoonguss and Tangrowth. Swords Dance sets have also quickly become a staple on hyper offensive teams, with a lot of variability that can dictate how it's checked; it can run High Horsepower to overwhelm Magearna, or perhaps run Grassy Seed in combination with Acrobatics to turn bulky Grass-types like Amoonguss and Tangrowth into non-checks. Rillaboom is certainly deserving of its spot in A- because of how consistently threatening and useful it is.

Skarmory is a very good check to Pokemon like Excadrill and Rillaboom and is perhaps the most punishing out of them all. Despite the recent influx of Heavy-Duty Boots usage, Spikes is still a great tool that can punish many switches and force the hand of opponents. Skarmory matches up very well against currently popular entry hazard removers, particularly Mandibuzz and Excadrill, making it a particularly effective Spikes user. However, it does suffer from some passivity issues, freely letting in Pokemon such as Toxapex and Rotom-H as it lays a layer of Spikes. Skarmory also suffers from some of the same issues as Corviknight; it's susceptible to Magnezone and many of the newer prominent offensive threats in the tier, like Urshifu and Cinderace.

Although significantly less prominent than in previous generations, Tangrowth has been seeing usage as a physically defensive Grass-type, capable of handling Pokemon such as Excadrill, Zeraora, and Rillaboom. Combined with some good utility options in Knock Off, Sleep Powder, and Stun Spore while being generally resilient thanks to Regenerator shouldn't make it hard to see why Tangrowth is a well regarded Pokemon in OU. It, just like any other Pokemon, isn't flawless though; similarly to Amoonguss, it becomes pretty easy to take advantage of once it cripples a Pokemon with Sleep Powder. Beyond that, it is similarly to Amoonguss held back by Fire-types, though to a far lesser extent thanks to Knock Off, but it also has an absolutely abyssmal Special Defense stat, which makes it very hard to handle specially offensive threats with Tangrowth at all.

With the DLC, sun teams have earned a great amount of recognition. Teleport Blissey has offered these teams a phenomenal pivot to mitigate risk of directly switching into threats. Torkoal is a subpar Pokemon, but access to Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin go a long way with impressive physical bulk. Venusaur is the main abuser of Sun perhaps and with Chlorophyll, Growth, and Weather Ball, it can go a long way -- in fact, it is perhaps public enemy #1 to opposing offensive teams, who are no match for this coverage combined with the bolstered speed of Venusaur under Sun. And if this is not enough reason to hop on the Sun train, then Charizard scorching the earth to crisp and Cinderace having a boosted Pyro Ball should be plenty to sway you. While it is still regarded as an inconsistent -- perhaps cheesy -- archetype, Sun is strong as it stands right now and deserves a ranking to reflect that, hence Torkoal and Venusaur finding themselves in B+.

 

[Jordy]

This thread is going to be locked until Monday so that everyone can collect their thoughts!

 

[Jordy]

This thread is now open for discussion!

 

[Finchinator]

to A

Choice Band Rillaboom has common checks and counters such as Mandibuzz, Corviknight, Amoonguss, and Ferrothorn, but the ability to support teams with Grassy Terrain, provide consistent chip with Knock Off and U-turn, and have unmatched power for priority standards with Grassy Glide goes a long way. On paper, I see why Rillaboom could be A- or even B+, but it is a couple U-turns or Knock Offs away from being able to break through and Grassy Terrain increases the longevity of so many teammates. I also think that in a tier that makes hard-countering Alakazam, Urshifu, Excadrill, and even Cinderace challenging, being able to revenge kill them from fairly high amounts of health (especially Alakazam and Excadrill, which can die get OHKOd) is huge. I believe that Rillaboom teams are great right now and while it is not the best standalone breaker, the intangibles that come alongside it make it an A tier Pokemon.

to A-

Nasty Plot + 3 attacks Gengar is amazing right now. It is able to destroy cores, with +2 Thunderbolt making quick work of Mandibuzz, Corviknight, and Toxapex. It already naturally threatens walls like Slowbro, Clefable, and Tangrowth, too, making it one of the best balance breaking win conditions. I find the other sets to be a bit less consistent, but SubWispHex and even TrickChoice sets hold some merit. While Gengar is quite fragile and may require Teleport support, I quite like what it does in the current metagame and believe that it takes advantage of most recent trends, making it deserving of a small rise to A-.

to B

Having absolutely no counters and only enough checks to count on one hand while being used on what might be the most scary archetype in the metagame is enough to be in the B rank, even if you are terribly frail, 4x weak to Stealth Rock, and slowly dying upon entry when the weather that makes you strongest is present. Charizard is not a good Pokemon itself, but in Sun on those teams it is devastating and not even teams with SDef Toxapex, Chansey, or Blissey are prepared for it. Until the Sun craze settles, I believe it belongs just a single sub-tier below Venusaur and Torkoal.

Finally, a huge shoutout to Jordy for putting this first full-update together. I plan on taking charge again for the future as I did previously, but he did a great job getting this update going and despite the OP being in my name, he deserves a lot of credit for this and other contributions recently!

 

[Pokedom10]

B- -> C, C-, or UR; I'm not picky.

I already wrote about it so I'll link it here: Please do not use Hatterene in OU.

A+ -> S

Excadrill has been quietly one of the best Pokemon in the game for some time now. It's an incredible counter/check to every Pokemon in the S rank, as well as being equally great on many lower ranked Pokemon that otherwise blow through the tier. With multiple great sets at its disposal thanks to an excellent movepool (not a large one, but it has everything it needs) and two threatening abilities, it remains extremely customizable, able to slot itself into any team it wishes. The only thing it does not appreciate are the return of bulky Grass types. as well as the popular Rillaboom, but that's why we have teammates. And thanks to its splashability, its not hard to find room for teammates that can dismantle its common barriers preventing a sweep. Nothing wants to switch into it when Sand is up, and even less want to if it chooses to boost. Rapid Spin's buff is still unjustified but Exca is not complaining.

Jordy putting in WORK

 

[ImperialGamer517]

——> A+

IMO it is ranked too low. If you let it get a chance to get one Quiver Dance, it becomes a terrifying sweeper. Plus its STAB moves can hit mosy of the tier for decent damage. Fire Blast or Flamethrower nails Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Magearna, and Rillaboom. Bug Buzz has some noteworthy targets like Hydreigon, Alakazam, and Slowbro. Finally, it has Psychic-type coverage, which allows it to KO Pokemon that its STAB moves cannot, such as Kommo-o, Urshifu-R, and Cinderace if it’s Fighting-type after either a Bulk Up or HJK.

——> A-

Although it is still a decent Pokemon in OU, it’s not pre-DLC anymore and I think Hydreigon has been hurt a lot by the DLC. With new arrivals in Magearna, Volcarona, and Urshifu-S acting as newfound Hydreigon checks, Hydreigon is sure to face plenty of trouble. Heck, it doesn’t even OHKO Magearna with Flamethrower or Earth Power, and still gets OHKOed by Fleur Cannon. Even though providing a Ground-type immunity is nice and is appreciated by lots of teams, Mandibuzz does it better, since it doesn’t need to worry about Mold Breaker Excadrill.

——> B+
If Azumarill gets the chance to get Belly Drum off, it will. Belly Drum, which increases Azumarill’s Attack stat by 6 stages, combined with Huge Power doubling its Attack stat, makes it an extremely deadly sweeper. This thing is no joke, and it can dismantle many walls in the tier. Here are some damage calcs as proof:

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 273-322 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 305-359 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 1294-1524 (181.2 - 213.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

For those that wanted to know what the shifts were in full detail:

Rises
Magearna: Added to S
Toxapex: A+ → S
Urshifu-Single-Strike: Added to A+
Mandibuzz: A → A+
Blissey: Added to A
Slowbro: Added to A
Volcarona: Added to A
Alakazam: Added to A-
Amoonguss: Added to A-
Skarmory: Added to B+
Tangrowth: Added to B+
Cinderace: B → S
Reuniclus: B → B+
Azumarill: Added to B
Chansey: Added to B
Kingdra: Added to B
Magnezone: Added to B
Alolan Marowak: Added to B
Torkoal: B- → B+
Venusaur: B- → B+
Rhyperior: B- → B
Heracross: Added to B-
Scizor: Added to B-
Pelipper: C+ → B
Diggersby: C+ → B-
Ditto: C+ → B-
Mew: C+ → B-
Krookodile: Added to C+
Talonflame: Added to C+
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Added to C+
Quagsire: C → B
Weavile: C → C+
Galarian Slowbro: Added to C
Barraskewda: C- → C+
Galarian Weezing: C- → C+
Araquanid: C- → C
Mienshao: Added to C-
Slowking: Added to C-
Rillaboom: Unranked → A-
Charizard: Unranked → B-
Shuckle: Unranked → C

Drops
Rotom-Heat: S- → A
Corviknight: S- → A-
Ferrothorn: A+ → A
Hippowdon: A+ → A
Hydreigon: A+ → A
Kommo-o: A+ → A-
Aegislash: A+ → B-
Conkeldurr: A+ → B-
Seismitoad: A+ → C
Kyurem: A → B+
Terrakion: A → B-
Gengar: A- → B+
Togekiss: A- → B
Jirachi: A- → B-
Cloyster: A- → C+
Obstagoon: A- → C+
Primarina: A- → C
Keldeo: B+ → B-
Chandelure: B+ → C+
Mamoswine: B+ → C+
Incineroar: B+ → C
Snorlax: B+ → C
Crawdaunt: B → B-
Grimmsnarl: B → B-
Hatterene: B → B-
Hawlucha: B → B-
Tyranitar: B → B-
Necrozma: B → C+
Xatu: B- → C+
Gyarados: B- → C
Rotom-Mow: B → Unranked
Jellicent: C+ → C-
Mimikyu: C+ → C-
Darmanitan: C+ → Unranked
Milotic: C+ → Unranked
Sylveon: C+ → Unranked
Avalugg: C → Unranked
Celebi: C → Unranked
Centiskorch: C → Unranked
Dracozolt: C → Unranked
Haxorus: C → Unranked
Ludicolo: C → Unranked
Mantine: C → Unranked
Pyukumuku: C → Unranked
Ribombee: C → Unranked
Sigilyph: C → Unranked
Sirfetch'd: C → Unranked
Vaporeon: C → Unranked
Arcanine: C- → Unranked
Drednaw: C- → Unranked
Durant: C- → Unranked
Shedinja: C- → Unranked
Umbreon: C- → Unranked

 

[Rotten]

to B

Upon the release of DLC, Hawlucha is not only a great Pokemon on hyper offensive teams but can form cores with Rillaboom. This gives it more opportunities to be on teams and act as a frightening sweeper. After a single switch in on Grassy Terrain, it is able to outspeed most of the metagame thanks to Grassy Seed + Unburden. Its good stats paired with Swords Dance allow it to break through most teams and has some nice STAB combinations to go along with it. Despite having a couple of checks such as Hippowdon and Toxapex, they can easily be worn down by the support of teammates and can even be crippled by Taunt.

to B+

It is almost physically impossible to check this thing, and requires offensive counterplay to completely force it out. Once it gets a free switch-in against your slower or bulky Pokemon, it has potential to become as strong as the other wallbreakers in the rank. It's solid typing also allows it to check Choice Specs Magearna and Volcarona. The most notable addition it got this generation is Poltergeist, which is a 110 BP Ghost move that hits very hard. This move in particular can check so many Pokemon such as Pyukumuku and Quagsire, that few people have considered restricting their teambuilding by using a lack of items. This does not really indicate that it's broken, but it can definitely put pressure onto teams when given the chance. As a general breaker like Kyurem or Gengar maybe it isn't as great but as a slow wallbreaker it definitely excels at its role.

 

[ReadTheMango]

Rotom-Heat A -> A+

I'm a little surprised to see this mon in particular in A. It is a great check to Magearna and Volcarona with a bit of SpDef investment. Able to cripple, kill (in Magearna's case) or switch for momentum on these mons relatively consistently, which is a pretty key role to play in this meta. This isn't all that it does either. It packs a strong boostable Fire Nuke in its back pocket; it pivots on a large portion of the metagame and can utilise TWave, Will-O, Toxic or Trick to cripple opponents.

Everybody knows what Rotom-H does, which is why I'm surprised to see it in A instead of A+ at the moment. It is generally in a really good spot at the moment, obviously not at the level it was pre-DLC, but higher than A for sure.

It was still top 10 for usage in WCop. While its Win % isn't as good as one might like (45%), I would remind people that Dragapult's Win % in WCop round 1 was 40.77%. Dragapult is still a damned good mon, as is Rotom-H, and I would ask people to look beyond these numbers at their usability.

 

[Adrift]

Sylveon to C

Band Sylveon is pretty unexpected, she has a nice match up vs Urshifu, Rain and Blissey / Chansey in a single slot and unlike other priority users like Aegislash and Conkeldurr, she has a better way of dealing with dragons like Hydreigon and darks like Urshifu.
Now the Specs set, while it has competition with Magearna and Primarina, it still has the fabulous combination of Hyper Voice + Mystical Fire, they both have a niche over both, Hyper Voice on the one hand is a much more reliable fairy stab, so you can be better for late game cleaner than Magearna's Fleur Cannon and can also evade SubDD Dragapult and SubRoost Kyurem and Mystical Fire do two things, first hit Ferrothorn in a cool way without relying on scald burn or relying on such unreliable move as is Focus Blast and it can also annoy special attackers like Magearna and Volcarona, which is great and it can also put pressure on Toxapex with Psyshock, which is useful.
Assault Vest is a set that although lacks direct recovery and does not hit as much, I think that if you take AV Sylveon in Misty Terrain + Wisher + Slowbro it can work very well, especially since it can check Dragapult, Volcarona, Kingdra in rain and Magearna and is not passive like Chansey or Blissey and also Kyurem can not do anything vs Sylveon, not even SubRoost and can also use Misty Explosion to gain momentum in emergencies and Draining Kiss is especially useful for recovery. Sylveon throat spray is a good late game cleaner in teams trick room thanks to its good coverage and thanks to this it can hit quite hard Mystical Fire + Hyper Voice + Psyshock + Shadow Ball is a quite unique coverage.
Now let's talk about Wish Sylveon, the difference it has with clefable is that Yawn Sylveon pressures some switch ins like Cinderace and Magearna that although they usually check Sylveon, they don't like to enter and receive a Yawn and press setup sweepers like Volcarona, which It can be very annoying.
It can also be a Urshifu soft check, which is nice for certain team structures and also check things like SubDD Dragapult (quite used on tours) and Sub Hawlucha with Pixilate + Hyper Voice, which is important to mention too.

Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1154824881-02q5uncftldy5atkj5hbu5sgzmc6ndupw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1154595248-ig21l4dll4i2bzgrkzqpqnj9gvvdktapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1150128149-yrfoy8b8su43co3lj8g528b2f8uhzibpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1150124144
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1150149927-vhjqep11a6wr3xjc9h30em8uas3rhg6pw
edit:https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8ou-1151110042-4nmmzub12bswiz39bomf9u2ojmkyyi8pw

 

[readytolose]

This was one of those mons that was ranked on the prior incarnation of the tier list, and it wasn't something anyone really used and it fell by the wayside. That said, I think Arcanine should be re-ranked in C- or C tier cause it's honestly actually useful now. Arcanine is the closest thing to a hard counter to Cinderace that also checks Rillaboom. It competes with Rotom-H and I guess Incineroar as a pivot, but it's bulkier than Rotom-H thanks to Intimidate and has better recovery than either. It not being weak to Fighting (compared to Incineroar) is also a huge benefit for fighting HJK Cinderace, as well as doing a bit better against Urshifu and Hawlucha in certain situations.

-1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 109-129 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

The main threat Cinderace poses to Arcanine is getting a Gunk Shot poison, which really results in it getting worn down over time, but Arcanine is a counter. Although it gets chipped by U-turn over time, that's something kinda unavoidable that Slowbro faces too.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine in Grassy Terrain: 113-133 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 94-111 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 184-218 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 359-424 (93.4 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

So Rillaboom can use Knock Off which is annoying, but it only really stands to beat Arcanine if it runs High Horsepower, which it doesn't always run, especially on CB (Honestly SD Rillaboom should always run High Horsepower). I would definitely call Arcanine a soft check to Rillaboom, although until you know their set it's hard to say for certain.

Arcanine has some flaws that prevent it from being super amazing; namely, it can be worn down by status and Knock Off is a big liability for it too. Although Teleport lets it pivot around, it's faster than any other Teleport in OU, meaning it can just lose a lot of momentum if it ends up in against Slowbro or Teleport Clefable. The best it can attempt against most bulky waters like Toxapex and Slowbro is just burning them, which can help if you have Hex Dragapult or something.

Fun Arcanine facts:
-It is definitely not a check to Urshifu, but it can usually take a single hit
-Specs Magearna actually doesn't do too great against it (aura sphere is a 30% chance of a 2HKO) and you can EV it to outspeed max speed neutral Magearna very easily which could come in clutch
-You can actually EV it to be faster than Adamant Rillaboom, which makes it a much more theoretically sound check to it but you lose a lot of bulk doing so (it's still enough to be a good check to Cinderace)

replays:
Arcanine pivots in on Cinderace and Rillaboom (which was slow for some reason) well
Opponent tries to beat Arcanine with Cinderace for some reason. Arcanine also beats Rillaboom which luckily didn't have High Horsepower for some reason.
Opponent clicks Gunk Shot a lot.
Early forfeit, I guess they figured they wouldn't make much headway against Arcanine
Proof of concept of speed creeping rillaboom, still loses due to wisp miss
Arcanine checks multiple threats, the opponent sort of just let it do what it wanted

 

[fart goblin]

Porygon2 - C- or C

This weird cyber-duck-thing is damn-near impossible to kill without a Fighting type move or Toxic, due in part to its amazing bulk backed by Eviolite and access to a wide array of status moves such as Recover, Trick Room, Teleport, Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Pain Split. Its special attack is surprisingly high for an NFE Pokemon too (105), and it goes nicely with STAB Tri Attack. I can't really think of any Pokemon it checks (or counters), but it overall does similar things to Chansey and Clefable combined.
Obviously, Knock Off cripples it as without Eviolite its bulk is only...fine. The lack of passive recovery is kinda lame too. It also kind of suffers from 4MSS because of its moveset being full of both good status and attack moves. Basically any Fighting-type Pokemon can 2HKO (or OHKO in the case of Banded Urshifu) which sucks.

Here's a decent set I came up with:
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Teleport
- Recover
- Tri Attack / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam

This set should be pretty self explanatory, honestly. Think Chansey, but it actually can attack.
Sorry if this analysis sucks, I'm kinda new to this and I just think Porygon2 deserves at least a C-.

 

[Gomi]

Rad opinion time
Magnezone to B+
I really, really like this pokemon currently. Rilla+Zone naturally pair nicely with one another because all of Rilla's counterplay (Shed shell steel birds, Mandibuzz, Tangrowth, Amoongus) Either let in zone for free, take huge amounts of damage from its stab attacks, get trapped due to Rilla's knock, or can't deny Zone's volt switch. They both kinda need support to properly deal with the grasses or they'll be peppered with knocks and sleep powders, but Cinderace and things like Toxic Mandibuzz both do that very nicely without being hard to fit at all.
Chansey to B+
Sure, Blissey outclasses this thing on balance, but it's still the stall anchor it always was, and stall as a playstyle is in quite a good place currently, despite the rise of mons that on paper seem unmanageable, like Magearna and Urshifu. I just really don't understand how it fits into the same category as rather average picks like Gastrodon, Mantine, and rain when the playstyle it almost always slots onto is pretty solid currently.

Other ppl's noms i agree with would include
Rillaboom: Yh, the first thing I thought when I saw the rankings was that Rillaboom was too low, this pokemon is currently way too mandatory to prep for and consistent inbattle to not be in A. CB has amazing immediate power and basically supports itself vs everything not named Amoong or Corv/Skarm, SD LO takes more team support but is devastating when pulled off, and Grassy seed sets are cool on HO.
Gengar: This thing really does not like the increased usage of moves like Twave and Knock Off on Clefable but on the flip side, it appreciates bisharp falling so hard and the introduction of pokemon like Chansey and Blissey which, usually, have no way of harming it. It's a great Anti stall measure that does well VS. fat balance as well, not much to add, def deserving of A-.
Hawlucha: While I don't think Hawl is that great currently and struggles from how physically fat this meta is in comparison to SM, it still has a decent pairing with Rillaboom and can really clean house in certain matchups with a decent amount of support, Definitely a step above most of the mons in B- and more on par with the choices in B.

 

[BazInABasket]

Hydreigon to A-

I support this, someone already explained why further up so I won't go into details but Hydreigon got new checks in the DLC and also now faces competition from Alakazam for a NP special attacker.

Weezing-G to B-

Being able to take hits from Urshifu is a cool niche but that's not all that Weezing does, access to T Spikes, Will O Wisp and Taunt make this pokemon hard to switch into freely, althrough it has poor recovery options it still has Pain Split. Neutralizing Gas also helps to hinder a few pokemon (Cinderace, Azurmarill, Crawdaunt, Guts Pokemon) and Levitate gives it another immunity.

Urshfiu-R to B- or B

Yes Urshifu-S is going to be used 9 times out of 10 over it's water brother but Urshifu-R does do well when it's used. It does well on rain and doesn't have a fighting weakness, Surging Strikes also still breaks Subs and Sashes.

Scizor to C+

Cinderace, Volcarona, Rotom-Heat. It does well enough against Clefable and Rillaboom but there are other mons who can get rid of these 2 and don't have a 4x weakness to Fire. Also suffers 4MSS.

 

[crobatoh]

Hey guys, I want to contribute a few opinions to this, as well as state my opinions on pokemon in the meta.

Cinderace (S Tier)
Not gonna lie, Cinderace is kind of overrated. It's not bad by any means, and is certainly a great pokemon, but it isn't an overwhelming force worthy of a ban like gen 6 Greninja was. To begin, a lot of its moves don't have 100% accuracy. Pyro Ball, Zen Headbutt, and Hi Jump Kick have 90, and Gunk Shot has 80, generally this isn't a huge deal, but it can screw you if you have to rely on one of those moves. Second, although it checks a lot of pokemon, it does have a decent amount of checks. Toxapex doesn't care about Zen Headbutt too much, it's a guaranteed 3HKO, but Toxapex has recover, so unless Cinderace gets lucky with a perfectly timed flinch, Toxapex will be fine, and even if it does get a flinch, Toxapex could just switch and get a regenerator heal. DD Dragapult, while not a check, can handle Cinderace under the right circumstances. Generally Cinderace will go Sucker Punch, which will usually OHKO, but if Dragapult just spams Dragon Dance, the 8 PP of Sucker Punch will burn out quick, leaving an unstoppable behemoth on the field (This also goes with Alakazam but with Nastly Plot). This isn't a usual check, but I just thought it was funny, and I don't think it'd actually work out. Mandibuzz forces a U-turn, same goes with Urshifu-S. And although it can't be chipped down by entry hazards, it can with status and and sand, meaning Hippowdon, if it runs toxic, can force a switch for Cinderace. Slowbro is great for reasons similar to Toxapex, and lastly, Kommo-o can survive a Zen Headbutt, set up an Iron Defense, and have a guaranteed 2HKO for Body Press, if Cinder U-turns, Kommo-o gets a free turn to set up rocks. That being said, Cinder still checks so many things, so I think it should stay very high up Keep in S, maybe move to A+

Magearna (S)
I agree with it's placing. This thing should be banned. It's completely overwhelming, a team without a counter gets run over, I could go on for a while, but what's been said about it is true. Pls Ban

Zeraora (A+)
Why is this ranked so high? It's not useless but it isn't a defining pokemon. The new pokemon hurt it way too badly. It can't Volt Switch against a Ground Type, which will either force a switch, allowing for the other side to get a free set up turn, or require the use of close combat or knock off, which does hurt excadrill, but means practically nothing to Hippowdon, since losing it's rocky helmet isn't the worst thing in the world. In the right scenario it's great, but under normal circumstances, it can't do too much to most teams Drop to A, A- or maybe even B+

Kommo-o (A-)
The Fact that Kommo-o is in A- baffles me. Sure, it doesn't like Magearna, but fairies were already a problem for the scaly boi, in addition to the previously mentioned Cinderace, it does well against Excadrill, Urshifu, Rillaboom, Rotom-H, and many more, it might not be as good as i was, but it's still a great pick in my mind, as well as being arguably the best rock setter. Raise to A or A+

 

[Katy]

Hey guys, I want to contribute a few opinions to this, as well as state my opinions on pokemon in the meta.

Cinderace (S Tier)
Not gonna lie, Cinderace is kind of overrated. It's not bad by any means, and is certainly a great pokemon, but it isn't an overwhelming force worthy of a ban like gen 6 Greninja was. To begin, a lot of its moves don't have 100% accuracy. Pyro Ball, Zen Headbutt, and Hi Jump Kick have 90, and Gunk Shot has 80, generally this isn't a huge deal, but it can screw you if you have to rely on one of those moves. Second, although it checks a lot of pokemon, it does have a decent amount of checks. Toxapex doesn't care about Zen Headbutt too much, it's a guaranteed 3HKO, but Toxapex has recover, so unless Cinderace gets lucky with a perfectly timed flinch, Toxapex will be fine, and even if it does get a flinch, Toxapex could just switch and get a regenerator heal. DD Dragapult, while not a check, can handle Cinderace under the right circumstances. Generally Cinderace will go Sucker Punch, which will usually OHKO, but if Dragapult just spams Dragon Dance, the 8 PP of Sucker Punch will burn out quick, leaving an unstoppable behemoth on the field (This also goes with Alakazam but with Nastly Plot). This isn't a usual check, but I just thought it was funny, and I don't think it'd actually work out. Mandibuzz forces a U-turn, same goes with Urshifu-S. And although it can't be chipped down by entry hazards, it can with status and and sand, meaning Hippowdon, if it runs toxic, can force a switch for Cinderace. Slowbro is great for reasons similar to Toxapex, and lastly, Kommo-o can survive a Zen Headbutt, set up an Iron Defense, and have a guaranteed 2HKO for Body Press, if Cinder U-turns, Kommo-o gets a free turn to set up rocks. That being said, Cinder still checks so many things, so I think it should stay very high up Keep in S, maybe move to A+

Magearna (S)
I agree with it's placing. This thing should be banned. It's completely overwhelming, a team without a counter gets run over, I could go on for a while, but what's been said about it is true. Pls Ban

Zeraora (A+)
Why is this ranked so high? It's not useless but it isn't a defining pokemon. The new pokemon hurt it way too badly. It can't Volt Switch against a Ground Type, which will either force a switch, allowing for the other side to get a free set up turn, or require the use of close combat or knock off, which does hurt excadrill, but means practically nothing to Hippowdon, since losing it's rocky helmet isn't the worst thing in the world. In the right scenario it's great, but under normal circumstances, it can't do too much to most teams Drop to A, A- or maybe even B+

Kommo-o (A-)
The Fact that Kommo-o is in A- baffles me. Sure, it doesn't like Magearna, but fairies were already a problem for the scaly boi, in addition to the previously mentioned Cinderace, it does well against Excadrill, Urshifu, Rillaboom, Rotom-H, and many more, it might not be as good as i was, but it's still a great pick in my mind, as well as being arguably the best rock setter. Raise to A or A+

I disagree with dropping Cinderace since it has a high speed-tier and even with adamant-nature it is able to outpace many threats in the current metagame. Cinderaces movepool with Pyro Ball, Zen Headbutt, U-turn and Gunk Shot hits a lot of its checks and counters, like Zen headbutt hits Toxapex and Kommo-o, U-turn enables Cinderace to keep up momentum and with the Libero-Boost a U-turn dishes out a decent amount of damage, furthermore its access to a very strong Gunk Shot enables it to get rid of Clefable. It hits a lot of the Top-Threats in the current metagame mostly for super-effective damage. To add onto it Heavy-Duty-Sets give it the necessary longevity with not prone to getting worn down by entry-hazards like Stealth Rock, Spikes and even Toxic Spikes. U can even still run Sets with Sucker Punch as a strong Libero-boosted priority-option or High Jump Kick. Cinderace should stay S as it is one of the most controversial and best pokémon in the ou-tier right now.

I agree with its placing in the current metagame due to plenty of viable sets. Not much to add onto that.

however should stay where it is at currently as also Heavy-Duty-Boots enable this pokémon to have the necessary longevity as an offensive pivot and a wide variety of movepools compliment this pokémon really well. Volt Switch makes zeraora able to maintain momentum, Close Combat hits most of the tier like Blissey, Hydreigon and also Excadrill whereas Plasma Fist hits Corviknight and especially Mandibuzz, which is really good right now in the tier as well. Its other coverage options in Knock Off which also offers utility to Knock Off items from Ghost-types like Dragapult and Items from Hippowdon which is really common right now with Excadrill makes it able for the Zeraora-User to hinder Hippos longevity or to get rid of an annoying Rocky Helmet. Also the special-set with Volt Switch, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt and Grass Knot (Calm Mind) is really great right now and hits a lot of pokémon at least in a neutral fashion. Zeraora is one of the best offensive piots with being able to maintain momentum, thus it should not drop.

on the other hand suffers from the fast paced metagame and hard hitters with the necessary coverage-options, Cinderace runs Zen Headbutt to dish out a lot of damge to it, Zeraora can Knock off its Item and use Volt Switch to bring in another Pokémon, which can take on Kommo-o, Dragapult is everywhere and Hdreigon is really offensive currently and both are faster than Kommo-o, furthermore Clefable and Magearna make it not easy for it and Mandibuzz as well as Toxapex can put it on a timer with Toxic, as these moves are really common right now. All of these things combined I think Kommo-o should stay where it is right now.

 

[Jordy]

Just as an aside, please keep in mind that discussion here is not about whether a Pokemon deserves to be banned or not. There is really no reason to mention it in your posts.

 

[Jaajgko]

A- -> B+
I think this mon is underwhelming and it feels very overrated. First, let's look at the WCoP stats: 11 | Rillaboom | 66 | 17.01% | 34.85%
This mon has been spammed, yet it has a terrible win rate. While stats aren't arguments for viability in themselves, the fact that this is the only pokemon in the top 30 with such a bad winrate, and that this winrate was calculated with a decently big sample size is very telling. The problem with Rillaboom lies in 2 main aspects: it struggles offensively against the most common defensive cores and the grassy terrain support isn't so amazing. Offensively, it has useful tools to let beat its checks, with Knock Off + Rocks against Mandibuzz and Fire Types, with Adamant LO +2 Grassy Glide to destroy weakened faster grass resists like Cinderace, Hydreigon or Dragapult, and the Grassy Seed set with Acrobatics to defeat Grass Types and certain Mandibuzz sets. The problem is that most of those require preparation and predictions to put into work, and it is very rare to see a team without a mon that can take two wood hammers from the banded set. Its best counters, aka Mandibuzz, Corviknight and Skarmory had a combined usage of 73% in WCoP Round 1, and while it can beat Mandibuzz after some type, it just can't beat any of the two steel birds, and they have around 18.5% usage. And on top of that, teams not only almost always have a solid grass resist, but they even have two most of the time. That makes it even harder for Rillaboom to predict correctly the switch-in, because there could be 2 or 3 of them.
Now, let's move on with Grassy Terrain, what are the abusers? Mainly they are: Hawlucha, Venusaur and CM Magearna. Hawlucha and Rillaboom are a great combination, and Rillaboom is generally a great fit on HO because it provides a check to Drill, Zeraora and rain, which they tend to be weak to. The thing is, Grassy Seed Hawlucha is usually a one-time trick, and most teams have a check that doesn't get chipped down by hazards like Bold Clef, Slowbro or bold Pex (haze can be shut down by taunt but you still have to dodge the burn, and it's not to forget that the whole thing involves predictions, like predicting taunt, sacrificing something after taking a +2 acro to heal with regen, etc), so yeah grassy seed Hawlucha really isn't that amazing with grassy (definitely the best late game cleaner though). CM Mag functions well with grassy seed + stored power, but weakness policy + grassy terrain is also a good combination, but it doesn't help much against fire types, which are a very common form of counterplay, and if the Rillaboom doesn't run Terrain Extender it's usually hard to have enough turns of Grassy Terrain to setup on stuff like Drill, but Terrain Extender really limits Rillaboom's offensive abilities. Finally we have Venusaur, which appreciates the boost on Solar Beam/Giga Drain to have an easier time beating Kommo-O and Dragapult, but it comes in with a big counterpart, which is that you use a precious slot on sun for a secondary grass type, that doesn't even abuse of Sun. So here again, nice option but definitely not a sun staple.
So now with the description I just gave, Rillaboom looks like a B oder B- pick that only does well in a certain archetype (Hawlucha HO), but I think it's worth in B+ for its effectiveness as a utility pivot on offensively oriented Bulky Offense*, and as a strong priority user. Those teams tend to not have solid recovery options, no wish, no healing move on half/more than half of the team, and can get worn down quickly by coming in repetitively on the field to try and break fat teams, especially against 2 regenerator users or rocky helmet spam, so grassy seed really helps out. In terms of utility, U-Turn and Knock Off are also very nice for Volturn cores with Magearna and Cinderace. But most importantyl, what Rillaboom really does well is to revenge kill or simply force out fast threats; which are numerous and amazing this gen, and also very hard to deal with on that archetype; because of how absurdly strong its Life Orb or Banded Grassy Glide is. Scarfers are really bad this generation and on teams with Cinderace as the fastest mon, you leave yourself open to stuff like opposing Cinderace, Alakazam, Zeraora, and even Terrakion, Gengar, Keldeo if you run Ada Cinde sweeping your team. Thankfully, Rillaboom is here:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace in Grassy Terrain: 301-355 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu in Grassy Terrain: 237-280 (69.5 - 82.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam in Grassy Terrain: 445-525 (177.2 - 209.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 180-212 (68.9 - 81.2%)
Life Orb misses on some kills but still gets the job done.

My point is that instead of being a splashable option on many types of teams like its usage would suggest, it is instead a solid option on certain types of team, them being offensively oriented bulky offense (mainly with Cinderace and/or Mag), hyper offense with Hawlucha and sometimes Sun, but definitely not something that should be commonly used on defensively oriented bulky offense, or "balance" if you wanna call them that. My point of it fitting better in that team structure is also supported by statistical evidence (those are its combinations with the biggest winrate with more than 2% usage, the worst being Clef): | 38 | Magearna / Rillaboom | 31 | 7.99% | 45.16% | | 52 | Rillaboom / Cinderace | 22 | 5.67% | 45.45% |
And inside of those team structures, it fullfills precise roles, so it shouldn't be in A tier along with very complete options, and instead join the more niche options in B, like Venusaur.

Quite a long post because I also wanted to make tips about how to make better use out of it in the teambuilder.

 

[TheArchangle]

Gonna be talking about this little guy

I think Hawlucha should be bumped up to at least B or B+. Sure the tier shifting from specially bulky to physically has hurt it, but it also certainly got some things going in its favor too with the presence of Rillaboom and Magnezone in the tier. From ranks S through A-, the only top-tier mons who live a hit from this thing at +2 are the following, assuming physically defensive: Clefable, Magearna, Toxapex, Mandibuzz, and Slowbro.

While these are dangerous Pokemon, only Magearna survives being OHKO'd by Magnezone, and even then it still gets trapped and one hit is all the chip you need for Hawlucha to clean up shop. Notice that I didn't even mention Skarm or Corv who get trapped and destroyed. It doesn't feel like a burden to have Magnezone on the team considering how amazing of partner it is for Rillaboom as they clear checks and counters for each other and the two form a VoltTurn core.

Rillaboom obviously provides terrain, can U-Turn to bring in Lucha, deal necessary chip to a lot of pokemon with powerful grass moves, and its ability to provide Knock Off support makes it that much easier to break through something like Mandibuzz who wants to switch in.

While normally I guess you'd knock it for saying it needs Magnezone and Rillaboom to support it, two mons, Rillaboom is a great mon in general, and they're all such natural pairings that I see it as a strength more than a hinderance to team building. Is there anything safe from this core?
Hawlucha can still just easily sweep teams, and has all the tools to do so.

 

[Jordy]

Please don't use an overabundance of sprites of Pokemon to replace words in your post. It makes it very hard to follow your post and may also cause lag for mobile users. I edited the above post, but in the future we'll probably just delete posts that use too many sprites as it is a lot of effort to replace them. Also keep in mind that :pokemon: is a feature. For example:

:clefable:

becomes

 

[mathchu2]

Hi, first post here.
I'd like to talk about a pokemon I see as underrated in the current metagame, namely Chandelure.
C+ --> B-, B(though B is a bit of a stretch)
Though Chandelure does suffer with the addition of Urshifu and the rise of Mandibuzz, it also:
Enjoys the rise of sun teams being able to absorb overheat from Charizard and resists or is fully immune to everything Venusaur carries. I like to lead with it given that full or semi-sun likes to lead with Torkoal:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 381-448 (110.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It matches up well against Volcarona, being able to survive a +1 psychic and knock it out, and usually given that Volc only likes switching in on things that are helpless against it like Rillaboom or Ferrothorn, it could also choose a fire move only to find itself facing specs flash fire Chandelure which OHKO's a good portion of the metagame, including OHKOing Slowbro after rocks
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It does well against two of the S tier mons(Magearna and Clefable) and acts as a soft check to Cinderace, while abusing the presence of mons like Amoonguss and Tangrowth, switching in on moves that aren't knock off or spore to force the opponent to take huge damage. It tricks past mons like Blissey and Mandibuzz, which can cripple those mons and takes their boots, which is not a bad item for chandy given that it's weak to stealth rocks. With good prediction, it is absolutely deadly, but even without, it can deal serious damage to the opposing team.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 139-164 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Probably forces pex to recover or switch out
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-241 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You have to invest a lot into spdef to avoid the 2hko
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 176-207 (51.6 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Urshifu has no spdef lol
I could go on and on about how much Shadow Ball/Overheat hits so hard off of 145 SpA, but this isn't too surprising.
All in all, I think Chandelure has a good offensive STAB combination that also resists common types in this post-DLC metagame. Though it does suffer a bit with Mandibuzz and Urshifu, it dissuades them from switching in and has ways of dealing with them. Being a choice user that doesn't rely on prediction to deal serious damage, it fits well on teams that need a strong special breaker. Though it may be worse than it was pre-DLC, I don't think this should drop it 3 ranks as it has gained new targets and does not belong in a rank below mons like Hattrene, Jirachi, and Heracross.

 

[BlueLobster]

Just my quick thoughts:

Zeraora A+ to A: While this thing can be a nightmare with HDB voltturn cores with things like cinderace and scizor, I don't think it compares to the stuff in A+. Urshifu is one of the most threatening mons builder wise, mandi and exca have tons of utility and are splashable as hell, and pult has a wide variety of sets to justify it on most archetypes. In contrast, zera only really fits on these more aggressive voltturn teams and isn't really self sufficient, nor is it one of the biggest teambuilder threats. While it is a good mon, A+ seems like a little bit of a stretch for me, and I think it fits better in A.

Rillaboom Do Not Drop: So this things been nommed both ways already, and while I don't really care either way about a raise, it definitely should not drop as it is a great threat that also provides a ton of team support. It has its fair share of both offensive and defensive common checks, but is also just winning games if you support it correctly, not to mention it can cripple a lot of its checks (SD acro beats tang/amoong, tang already doesn't enjoy taking band knocks, it can knock mandi, I've even seen band high horsepower to take out mage 1v1 (although I wouldn't advise it, other moves are generally better). It's definitely a step above shit like sun and reuni in B+.

Crawdaunt B- to B+: I've been spamming band craw in high ladder for a while and it's extremely good. Knock was an amazing move even before megas/zs got killed and craws is extremely powerful, leaving it with no real switch ins. A lot of teams have just mandi as a dark resist, and since mandi is one of the worst knock absorbers in the meta knocks basically a free move, and teams generally have to make a sack in order to not let mandi take a knock. The only fat structure that I've found particularly annoying is clef pex, as you need to make a predict to get the kill (and if they're some garbage set like baneful pex you're a bit screwed), but even then you put a ton of pressure on any fat core. In terms of offensive threats, you threaten huge threats like cinderace and volc with banded jet and in general have a powerful cleaner. It can even take the odd hit in a pinch, being able to switch into awak once, come into fp mandi (although make sure it isnt knock first) and even taking a wicked blow from band ada urshi (not too useful but can cause a 50/50 if they try to take advantage of you). I haven't tried the SD set so I'm not going to go in detail about it but it also exists and can be pretty threatening to some builds, and adds an extra layer of the guessing game band creates for fat. B- in general looks like the "this stuff is all ok, I guess" rank and that's a huge understatement for craw.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1153375013-i18ryemk4mb836h7ggj0qvzz82x2vu0pw - Takes 1 from exca, removes bro, cleans with jet
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1152492942-1hbqp8fblbzwfav1ovpdrauqcnw3qwrpw - Saves the game along with volc (skip to turn 42)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1152507349 - Doesn't do a ton here but shows the lack of knock absorbers pretty well, removes quag which was huge for exca
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1152210215-swuq5fjzxdj5ea8egjzigcuhm7z8dflpw - Knock was basically free kills (V rain)

Other things I think/agree with but don't have much to say on:

Azu to B+: With the exception of knock the things about craw apply here, also has the sap sipper set which is annoying af if played well and BD is scary af.
Chansey to Higher: This should not be 1 whole rank below blissey. While blissey gets HDB, chansey is still significantly bulkier if you don't let it get knocked and, even though it isn't quite as good, is definitely not that much worse as the ranks currently suggest.
Hawlucha to B: Someone made this nom and I agree, this thing is really scary for some builds.
Terrak to B: Saw some people in OU room mention this one seeming like an outlier in B- and I agree, though I have no personal experience to make a formal nom.
Mienshao: I feel like this needs some explaination (even if its just a link to whatever tour usage it had) since I've never seen any use/discussion of this mon, and that probably goes for most the playerbase.

 

[Finchinator]

Zeraora (A+)
Why is this ranked so high? It's not useless but it isn't a defining pokemon. The new pokemon hurt it way too badly. It can't Volt Switch against a Ground Type, which will either force a switch, allowing for the other side to get a free set up turn, or require the use of close combat or knock off, which does hurt excadrill, but means practically nothing to Hippowdon, since losing it's rocky helmet isn't the worst thing in the world. In the right scenario it's great, but under normal circumstances, it can't do too much to most teams Drop to A, A- or maybe even B+

The best set, in my eyes, is Plasma Fists / Close Combat / Knock Off / Volt Switch with Heavy Duty Boots. When paired with Cinderace or another strong attacker, it can easily Volt Switch on the new Grass types and put them in a tough position. In addition, giving teams a Volt Switch immunity combined with speed control is a super valuable piece of role compression that many teams are making use of right now. It can also run Toxic over Close Combat, meaning that you just have to pick which one of Hippowdon/Excadrill you struggle against and the rest is all good. I think you underestimate the consistency of Zeraora usage and consistency and it should stay in A+ or at least be near the top of A rank.

Kommo-o (A-)
The Fact that Kommo-o is in A- baffles me. Sure, it doesn't like Magearna, but fairies were already a problem for the scaly boi, in addition to the previously mentioned Cinderace, it does well against Excadrill, Urshifu, Rillaboom, Rotom-H, and many more, it might not be as good as i was, but it's still a great pick in my mind, as well as being arguably the best rock setter. Raise to A or A+

It does alright against all of those Pokemon until you realize that it lacks recovery and it is really only a one-time check to most of them, perhaps even falling short of this against Cinderace and Urshifu. Kommo-O's Stealth Rock set right now is arguably worse than it was at any point prior in the metagame. BO with flimsier defensive components simply is not workable in a metagame as congested and hectic as this one. Kommo-O is an effective option, but the amount of teams that can make use of it is a lot less than prior points in the tier and it is definitely not on par with A+ or A rank.

A- -> B+
I think this mon is underwhelming and it feels very overrated. First, let's look at the WCoP stats: 11 | Rillaboom | 66 | 17.01% | 34.85%
This mon has been spammed, yet it has a terrible win rate. While stats aren't arguments for viability in themselves, the fact that this is the only pokemon in the top 30 with such a bad winrate, and that this winrate was calculated with a decently big sample size is very telling.

I already posted my thoughts on Rillaboom here, so I don't want to beat a dead horse, but what you did here is something we should avoid doing in most cases. The metagame over the three weeks of WCOP R1 has shifted dramatically and it is still shifting. Basing any argument off of win-rate is a really inaccurate representation whatsoever. Rillaboom's tendencies, teammates, and place in the tier overall has changed alongside these trends and looking at it in this fashion completely ignores that. Also (just because I get a feeling someone is going to chime in and claim I'm ignoring the core of their argument), the rest of your post gives a very linear account of the Pokemon and fails to consider long-term ramifications of Rillaboom being amazing at forcing chip with Knock/U-turn (not to mention it is more splashable than you give it credit for because of characteristics like this). Choice Band Rillaboom is a great team supporter, timely revenge killer, and can easily put things like Mandibuzz into 2HKO range, especially with more people shifting to SDef variants with the rise of PDef Clefable and PDef Hippowdon. And lastly, legitimately any grounded Pokemon is an abuser, not just the Pokemon who directly use Grass moves or the seed.