Resource SS PU Viability Rankings

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Thwackey C to C+, but still should be higher than absol

Can we talk about how people wanted eggy banned cause it abused all the rockers, but thwacky absolutely crushes anything without a lure item or regirock?
+1 252 Atk Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock in Grassy Terrain: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

+1 252 Atk Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gigalith in Grassy Terrain: 378-446 (101 - 119.2%)

Without any investment You can really just switch in on toxic/ground coverage/hazards super free requiring a hard call out to avoid a clean ko, knock/u-turn

And obviously not looking at grassy seed teams(stored power mes?) it offers tons of utility to electric mons, life orbers, and ground weak mons in a meta that turns to a rapid spinner/centi for reliable grass coverage while being able to glue itself into teams a little more soundly than tangla, tang+fire resist+hazards just isn't as clean imo, while tang is a godly def wall other than sludge bomb/powder and easy knocks, anytime You need to switch out thwacky reveals any weight it needs to carry when switching out, that said tangla obv gives no shits about hazards and thwacky is extremely dictated by whatever item it must run with very little room for surprises, but hey pass is still good.


Thwack is also a huge gatekeeper on what scarf users can be viable and does always have to resort to wood hammer
+1 252 Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 258-304 (95.2 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon in Grassy Terrain: 252-297 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- 56.3%
+1 252 Atk Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol in Grassy Terrain: 253-298 (93.3 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

toge loses the 1vs1 after very little chip assuming it's a revenge killer
+1 252 Atk Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togedemaru in Grassy Terrain: 122-144 (45 - 53.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thwackey: 144-171 (51.2 - 60.8%)


+1 252 Atk Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandslash in Grassy Terrain
+1 252 Atk Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctovish in Grassy Terrain: 336-396 (104.6 - 123.3%)
+1 252+ Atk Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctovish: 204-242 (63.5 - 75.3%)

+1 252 Atk Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Lanturn in Grassy Terrain: 392-464 (98 - 116%) -- 87.5%
+1 252 Atk Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire in Grassy Terrain: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%)

Thwacky is the only offensive grass type able to threaten with priority, breaker power and support besides Tsareena/ Groug and they can fill a similar pivot role they do deserve to be higher than thwacky. They can easily be shuffled around still having a similar team comp when losing to weezing. I just think thwacky is an amazing end game/lategame mon that can't be understated.

In bad match-ups You just have to accept only when You need a u-turner/knocker and enjoy not being weak to standard rocks, but suffer vs T-spikes



Balanced Moth (pokepast.es)

This team just won't let me sink under 1400 or go over 1500


Weezing to A
regirock doesn't deserve to drop, tho is barely has a niche



Future updates

Lunatone to B+/A-
lunatone 1v1's Set-up W.P. G-Cuno
[Gen 8] PU replay: Hawkking811 vs. INSANE CARZY GUY
wrath to B+
 
Last edited:

gum

sleep awake
is a Community Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
gm, gna try to revive this thread w some noms

7BC12C95-7DEF-4EAF-BDD7-91A62501FB4E.png
a+ -> s
i think tsareena is easily a top 3 mon rn. it's the tier's best removal option, as it can beat most entry hazard setters in a 1v1 (and even switch into some of them). it's also an incredibly threatening wallbreaker; not much can switch into power whip + knock off + hjk safely. options like synthesis, u-turn, and aromatherapy are also really solid in the last slot, which makes it a very customizable & splashable mon

4B869364-98FD-4965-875C-883DD4B34C6D.png
a -> a+
drampa's the tier best wallbreaker imo, our dragon resists are kinda ass & all die to hvoice / coverage. it also really appreciates gigalith being the tier's main spdef wall as cloud nine allows drampa to do like, 85% with draco meteor and ohko with grass knot / focus blast / hydro pump. it doesn't have a particularly hard time getting in either, as we have plenty of u-turn mons like passimian and togedemaru to support it, while its usable bulk & typing means it afford to switch into stuff like weezing snd smallgeist once

14C0CF76-E154-4C0C-9B50-7C2A4355E658.png
a- -> a/a+
one of our only tsareena answers, and it's also a really solid fighting resist & fairyvally answer (and also to most vallies if you only need to burn them). toxic spikes are borderline broken bc we have like, 2.5 viable absorbers, with one of them being neutralizing gas weezing, and it can also set its own. taunt + neutralizing gas is also cool to beat scrafty. but yeah, cool mon that can check a bunch of stuff

FD0E3F54-206D-4BC1-8807-B595F235E4A1.png
b+ -> a-/a
i'd consider this our best defensive steel rn. formidable check to mons like cb aggron, ribombee, togedemaru, and mesprit, and it can run both spdef and physdef sets successfully. spikes are also really good, and it can punish tsareena with iron barbs, while knock off + gyro ball prevents it from being overly passive. it can get worn down rather fast, but it'll usually have done its job effectively by the time it's dead

98A10DEC-7CAE-4578-96C2-923EFC1D6B03.png
b -> b+
zard (and steelvally) answer!! very cool pivot rn, as it hits decently hard while not sacrificing any bulk. we don't have many solid scald switchins either, with a lot of them getting chipped down by u-turn pretty fast.
 
Hi PU players, I've been playing, building, and spectating tournaments like PUPL and the Summer Seasonal and with those coming to an end, it'd be cool to see an update on what everyone thinks of the status of the Pokemon in the tier. I thought I'd give a format showcasing my current thoughts on each Pokemon as a whole. I only have time to sit and talk about the S rank and unranked Pokemon, but I'd like to incite discussion for others if possible!

my-image (2).png

As for the Silvally rankings, I think everything is accurate (although I would strongly advocate a rise of Silvally-Poison)


S tier analysis:

  • Best blend between offense and defense in the tier. Resists Grass, Fighting, Bug, Ground (immune), Steel, and Fairy, while reaching a competitive speed tier with an insanely power dual stab offensively
  • The aforementioned typing attributes allow it to fit in every team
  • Toxic and Scorching Sand help it play in a way that's more centered around slowly pressuring its few checks (Gigalith, Regirock, Coalossal with minimal risk
  • Defog is a lesser option due to it being less able to keep Gigalith away from hazards, but it's among the fastest at it while not enabling deterrents (Passimian, Galarian Articuno) to come in
  • DDance and Belly Drum is tough to sweep with effectively, but both sets can outspeed every common Choice Scarf user and can setup for serious game-ending outcomes with the right support

  • PU's quintessential source of Knock Off, both for its own offense and support
  • Fits on wide ranges of teams due to its Knock Off and other traits, being the most accessible Ghost resist, status absorber that inherently beats most defensive Pokemon, and it's reliable status as a win condition
  • Switch ins dislike Knock Off due to their frequent reliance on Heavy Duty Boots, making it a risk-free early game pressure tool
  • Punishes teams with defensive and offensive options (Roar, Bulk Up, Dragon Dance) like little else due to it require aggressive counterplay in most situations
  • Dragon Dance has issues being consistent due to Whimsicott, Ribombee, Choice Scarf Passimian but can adapt in ways that enable it to overcome its answers and sweep like little else (Roseli Berry, Sticky Web)

  • Defensive pillar that sets the tempo of the match the moment it's brought in
  • Sand chips at the opposing team and creates endless possibilities with synergistic strategies (enabling sweepers like Sandslash, chipping teams with Toxic (Spikes) and Protect, etc.)
  • Go-to choice as the most consistent Charizard answer, while reliably handling Ribombee, Drampa (if Protect), Mesprit, and G-Articuno)
  • Its unmatched defensive and utility traits make it the centerpiece of many successful cores
  • Sky-high attack and good coverage options means it can't be taken advantaged of in a way that is applicable for its more passive counterparts

  • Overloaded kit and well-rounded matchup against hazard setters and spinblockers enables its teams heavily as a Rapid Spin user
  • Has a very easy time forcing progress with its incredible offense, with its coverage options (HJK, U-Turn, Triple Axel) being borderline oppressive in addition to its STAB and Knock Off being very safe against more aggressive switch-ins
  • While it mainly relegates to running Power Whip+Rapid Spin+Knock Off, this is enough to supports its team in just about any context. Having free will in how it wants to function otherwise (items like HDB, Assault Vest and Choice Band, support moves like Synthesis and Aromatherapy) is invaluable

  • Unmatched combination of attacking and pivoting such that it is always exerting immense pressure
  • Offensive support from other teammates (Spikes and Future sight for Scarf sets, multiple pivots, Glare) is game-changing as it effectively makes even Choice Scarf a nuke with the right setup
  • Great blend of offensive and defense with its coverage and bulk, and deterrent to Defog and the ability to dominate matchups against playstyles depending on the set
Unranked to ranked (analysis):

  • Life Orb AoA with Grass Knot is very potent. It loves Spikes because it loses to Steels but the upsides are worth it, as it is actively dealing big damage to Pokemon like Gigalith, Aggron, Regirock, Jellicent, and Palossand while ignoring Weezing's Toxic Spikes and other indirect damage

  • Rapid Spin + Aromatherapy + Regenerator with options like Sleep/Paralysis and Leech Seed is pretty good utility. It also helps that it switches in against Ground-types easily and fits a nice backbone with Gigalith, let it rack up Leech Seed+Sand chip or even lure Charizard with Rock-type Weather Ball

  • Fairy-type with an ability that lets it pseudo-wall Drampa + Healing Wish are some recognizable attributes. It's not that hard to answer, but it can usually disrupt something in a pinch otherwise.

  • Works as a Charizard answer between avoiding getting 2HKOed by its attack and having Natural Cure to evade Toxic. It's also an underrated Defog user in general as most hazard users outside of Gigalith can't touch it well. Fire Spin + Perish Song is also some decent cheese against defensive Pokemon that doesn't take away from its traits otherwise.

  • Defog user that spreads status, pressures with Hex, and outlasts many Pokemon otherwise with Strength Sap, which could work well in tandem with its Spinblocking. Abilities can be clutch in its role also. Calm Mind with Thwackey support is also quite functional!

  • An Electric-type that is infamous for its suboptimal coverage, but can still take the initiative as one of the leading faces of a functional playstyle in hazard stack pivoting offense.
  • Galvantula performs said role better generally with its stronger Thunder, better coverage options and Ground- neutrality + Fighting and Grass resist, while Jolteon is faster than Archeops, Froslass, and Sneasel
  • Needs Spikes to work optimally which is why it can't fit on many teams, but the upsides are worth it

  • Choice Specs Stakeout is incredibly powerful, and it has Parting Shot to contend with the matchups where it is gatekept from the likes of Scrafty. It's better at using Parting Shot that a lot of other relevant Pokemon due to it being able to destroy deterrents with its boosted moves.
 
Hi PU players, I've been playing, building, and spectating tournaments like PUPL and the Summer Seasonal and with those coming to an end, it'd be cool to see an update on what everyone thinks of the status of the Pokemon in the tier. I thought I'd give a format showcasing my current thoughts on each Pokemon as a whole. I only have time to sit and talk about the S rank and unranked Pokemon, but I'd like to incite discussion for others if possible!

View attachment 369254
As for the Silvally rankings, I think everything is accurate (although I would strongly advocate a rise of Silvally-Poison)


S tier analysis:

  • Best blend between offense and defense in the tier. Resists Grass, Fighting, Bug, Ground (immune), Steel, and Fairy, while reaching a competitive speed tier with an insanely power dual stab offensively
  • The aforementioned typing attributes allow it to fit in every team
  • Toxic and Scorching Sand help it play in a way that's more centered around slowly pressuring its few checks (Gigalith, Regirock, Coalossal with minimal risk
  • Defog is a lesser option due to it being less able to keep Gigalith away from hazards, but it's among the fastest at it while not enabling deterrents (Passimian, Galarian Articuno) to come in
  • DDance and Belly Drum is tough to sweep with effectively, but both sets can outspeed every common Choice Scarf user and can setup for serious game-ending outcomes with the right support

  • PU's quintessential source of Knock Off, both for its own offense and support
  • Fits on wide ranges of teams due to its Knock Off and other traits, being the most accessible Ghost resist, status absorber that inherently beats most defensive Pokemon, and it's reliable status as a win condition
  • Switch ins dislike Knock Off due to their frequent reliance on Heavy Duty Boots, making it a risk-free early game pressure tool
  • Punishes teams with defensive and offensive options (Roar, Bulk Up, Dragon Dance) like little else due to it require aggressive counterplay in most situations
  • Dragon Dance has issues being consistent due to Whimsicott, Ribombee, Choice Scarf Passimian but can adapt in ways that enable it to overcome its answers and sweep like little else (Roseli Berry, Sticky Web)

  • Defensive pillar that sets the tempo of the match the moment it's brought in
  • Sand chips at the opposing team and creates endless possibilities with synergistic strategies (enabling sweepers like Sandslash, chipping teams with Toxic (Spikes) and Protect, etc.)
  • Go-to choice as the most consistent Charizard answer, while reliably handling Ribombee, Drampa (if Protect), Mesprit, and G-Articuno)
  • Its unmatched defensive and utility traits make it the centerpiece of many successful cores
  • Sky-high attack and good coverage options means it can't be taken advantaged of in a way that is applicable for its more passive counterparts

  • Overloaded kit and well-rounded matchup against hazard setters and spinblockers enables its teams heavily as a Rapid Spin user
  • Has a very easy time forcing progress with its incredible offense, with its coverage options (HJK, U-Turn, Triple Axel) being borderline oppressive in addition to its STAB and Knock Off being very safe against more aggressive switch-ins
  • While it mainly relegates to running Power Whip+Rapid Spin+Knock Off, this is enough to supports its team in just about any context. Having free will in how it wants to function otherwise (items like HDB, Assault Vest and Choice Band, support moves like Synthesis and Aromatherapy) is invaluable

  • Unmatched combination of attacking and pivoting such that it is always exerting immense pressure
  • Offensive support from other teammates (Spikes and Future sight for Scarf sets, multiple pivots, Glare) is game-changing as it effectively makes even Choice Scarf a nuke with the right setup
  • Great blend of offensive and defense with its coverage and bulk, and deterrent to Defog and the ability to dominate matchups against playstyles depending on the set
Unranked to ranked (analysis):

  • Life Orb AoA with Grass Knot is very potent. It loves Spikes because it loses to Steels but the upsides are worth it, as it is actively dealing big damage to Pokemon like Gigalith, Aggron, Regirock, Jellicent, and Palossand while ignoring Weezing's Toxic Spikes and other indirect damage

  • Rapid Spin + Aromatherapy + Regenerator with options like Sleep/Paralysis and Leech Seed is pretty good utility. It also helps that it switches in against Ground-types easily and fits a nice backbone with Gigalith, let it rack up Leech Seed+Sand chip or even lure Charizard with Rock-type Weather Ball

  • Fairy-type with an ability that lets it pseudo-wall Drampa + Healing Wish are some recognizable attributes. It's not that hard to answer, but it can usually disrupt something in a pinch otherwise.

  • Works as a Charizard answer between avoiding getting 2HKOed by its attack and having Natural Cure to evade Toxic. It's also an underrated Defog user in general as most hazard users outside of Gigalith can't touch it well. Fire Spin + Perish Song is also some decent cheese against defensive Pokemon that doesn't take away from its traits otherwise.

  • Defog user that spreads status, pressures with Hex, and outlasts many Pokemon otherwise with Strength Sap, which could work well in tandem with its Spinblocking. Abilities can be clutch in its role also. Calm Mind with Thwackey support is also quite functional!

  • An Electric-type that is infamous for its suboptimal coverage, but can still take the initiative as one of the leading faces of a functional playstyle in hazard stack pivoting offense.
  • Galvantula performs said role better generally with its stronger Thunder, better coverage options and Ground- neutrality + Fighting and Grass resist, while Jolteon is faster than Archeops, Froslass, and Sneasel
  • Needs Spikes to work optimally which is why it can't fit on many teams, but the upsides are worth it

  • Choice Specs Stakeout is incredibly powerful, and it has Parting Shot to contend with the matchups where it is gatekept from the likes of Scrafty. It's better at using Parting Shot that a lot of other relevant Pokemon due to it being able to destroy deterrents with its boosted moves.
if nothing else, i really would love to know what niche pumpkaboo has to warrant B+
 
if nothing else, i really would love to know what niche pumpkaboo has to warrant B+
Sorry I hadn't specified, assume Pumpkaboo to be Gourgeist-Small (I couldn't find minisprites for the alternate formes) and the other Gourgeist sprite to be XL. Gourgeist-Small's niche lies in the value in its Choice sets in tandem with its Speed, due to its great STAB options (Power Whip, Poltergeist) to threaten a lot of slower Pokemon. Notably, it's one of the better answers against Sand Offense as unlike the more common Choice Scarf users (Passimian, Mesprit, Togedemaru), Gourgeist-Small is the only Pokemon that is faster than Sand Rush Adamant Sandslash besides Togedemaru, who doesn't threaten it enough to reliably revenge kill it.
 

  • An Electric-type that is infamous for its suboptimal coverage, but can still take the initiative as one of the leading faces of a functional playstyle in hazard stack pivoting offense.
  • Galvantula performs said role better generally with its stronger Thunder, better coverage options and Ground- neutrality + Fighting and Grass resist, while Jolteon is faster than Archeops, Froslass, and Sneasel
  • Needs Spikes to work optimally which is why it can't fit on many teams, but the upsides are worth it
Jolteon is indeed a nice Electric-type option. It was outclassed by :Heliolisk:, but now that it is gone, :Jolteon: seems to have an opportunity to shine. Refer to Heracross2.0 message of some months / metas ago:

Hi there!

:jolteon: UR to C/B-

Hear me out here.

On paper, Jolteon seems outclassed by Heliolisk due to a few factors. Heliolisk has all the coverage it could ever want to hit common Volt switch-ins such as Claydol, Rhydon, and Sandaconda, a secondary STAB in Hyper Voice than can seriously chip Lanturn, and Dry Skin, letting it switch into Vaporeon and opposing Water-types for days. However, Jolteon does occupy a few niches I feel warrant a ranking.

  1. Jolteon has a blazing fast speed tier. Not only does this mean it can run a boosting item such as Choice Specs or Life Orb, but it also outpaces similarly fast Pokemon such as Ribombee and Talonflame. As shown by Lycanroc being A- and by Omastar being nominated for a big rise, being able to take advantage of Talonflame in some way is big. This also gives Boots Jolteon a solid matchup against cheeser teams likes Webs or Screens.
  2. Jolteon's movepool is not exactly the best thing in the world; however, it's just enough to be able to work with what it's given. Shadow Ball is a particular point of interest, as due to Jolteon's slightly higher Special Attack stat, a Shadow Ball from Jolteon actually hits harder than any of Heliolisk's moves against Ghosts and Psychics (see below for calcs). Due to Jolteon's great speed tier combined with the fact that Ghosts and Psychics are very commonplace in the meta, this interaction sees more use than one would think, and makes Jolteon able to dispose of Ghosts and Psychics easier than Heliolisk.
  3. Adding onto the previous point, Jolteon is able to bait in common blanket special checks such as Gigalith and AV Guzzlord and cripple them with Toxic. Admittedly, Heliolisk can do the exact same thing since it also has access to Toxic along with 90% of the tier. However, Jolteon's limited coverage makes it easier to bait said special walls, and this is heavily appreciated by teammates who want to wear down these Pokemon easier.
  4. Finally, Jolteon makes for an excellent cleaner. Its speed tier, high SpA, and powerful STAB means that, while it does need more support than other cleaners such as Passimian, it is able to cleave through weakened foes with a Specs while still usually being the faster thing in the lategame.
252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 150-178 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 150-178 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 126-148 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Don't believe me? Here are a couple of replays that showcase Jolteon's positive qualities.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1286951653

Here, a Boots Jolteon was able to cripple both Trick Room setters (Eggy-A didn't reveal itself) and constantly force defensive options thanks to Toxic and some lucky statues from its teammates. Eventually, Toxic damage overwhelmed Aromatisse while Uxie had to waste a turn Heal Belling, which gave a clear path for Jolteon to further chip it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1287701537

This time, it was Specs Jolteon, and it showcased its speed tier turn 1 by immediately forcing out Talonflame, severely damaging Claydol, and taking a solid chunk from Absol. After a few turns of pivoting around, Jolteon was able to chip its supposed switchins via Hyper Voice. Its ability to force damage on unsuspecting foes is solid.

Overall, while Jolteon is outclassed in a few roles by Heliolisk and other, more specialized Electric types, it carves itself a niche with its blazing fast speed tier, good enough coverage options, ability to force damage on its checks either by Toxic or just sheer power, and solid matchup against cheeser teams due to its unique qualities, especially with Boots. I think this warrants an official ranking on the VR, lest we create a D rank solely for Jolteon even when it clearly has a niche.
 

termi

the eye of the needle
is a Tiering Contributor
First off, I agree with basically all of gum's noms except Weezing because it's often too easily worn down for a wall and lets Drampa in too easily, which is not to say it's bad by any means but definitely has flaws too noticeable for me to support another rise for it.

:jolteon: UR -> C: Jolteon remains something of a niche pick but I do think it is at least viable enough to warrant being ranked. It brings non-choiced speed control to the table as well as an Electric immunity and a powerful Volt Switch, making it decently annoying to play against in a meta where people sometimes forfeit having an Electric immunity (see my PUPL finals game vs TJ for a good example). As someone above me pointed out, it functions well with Spikes support, making immunities like Lanturn and Scarf Toge unreliable vs it in the long run.

:jellicent: B+ -> A: Jellicent is easily the best bulky Water right now imo, both thanks to its unique typing which allows it to double as a Fighting check and its access to reliable recovery. The latter in tandem with its solid bulk and U-Turn resistance also makes it a decent Archeops check. Aside from this, Jellicent also distinguishes itself by being able to occasionally just shut down entire teams between status + Taunt, making it surprisingly difficult to play around for a wall. This is even moreso the case with Cursed Body, allowing Jellicent to do things it shouldn't be able to do, like walling Scrafty (if Taunt + faster) and Boots Whimsicott (as seen in my PUPL finals game vs TJ). Specs is also a really solid option if you know how to build with it, as few teams appreciate its STAB combo. Moreso than Lanturn and Wishi, Jellicent just feels like a genuinely good mon even beyond the resistances and utility it provides and I think this should be reflected in the rankings.

:silvally: (Steel) A+ -> A: Steelvally was a total menace for a minute and it's still dangerous enough, but I do feel it is being oversold in A+ atm. Bulky Waters like Jellicent and Wishiwashi are faring well in this meta and trouble the standard SD set. Also, bulkier teams are more favored in the meta currently, and I feel that Steelvally isn't optimal as a Steel type in such a meta due to its poor longevity. Still dangerous enough, especially with mixed sets getting more attention, but misses out on being among the cream of the crop in my estimation.

:togedemaru: A+ -> A: Toge also does not feel quite at home in A+. I always felt Toge's high ranking was first and foremost the result of it being a necessary gluemon on many a team, whether it was as one of the few reliable "bulky" Steels with its Wish set or as a Scarfer that could outspeed such menaces as Shell Smash Omastar in a previous meta. In this meta, Toge feels much less necessary, gaining major competition as a bulky Steel between Aggron, Ferroseed, and even Alolaslash, while being less optimal as a Scarfer in a meta that is bulky and lacking in real speed demons. As we have seen in PUPL, Toge's usage tapered off quite significantly after the first few weeks, which I think is a good indication that it is now just one good gluemon among many rather than a staple of the metagame.

:whimsicott: A+ -> A: A+ is all too bloated, especially if we move Drampa up, and Whimsi is another gluemon that just does not feel quite as needed as it used to. Whimsi's role compression remains appreciated, but in a bulkier meta it also feels like its relative lack of longevity becomes more of a problem. BU Scrafty and Coil Conda for example often just muscle through it in longer games, especially now that great Whimsi teammate Wish Toge isn't as good as before. Whimsi also struggles more than before to justify itself over competitors like Ribombee and Tsareena, with both having more durability as well as additional utility as revenge killer/cleaner and hazard removal, respectively. None of this is to say that Whimsi is anywhere near suboptimal right now, but much like Toge, Whimsi's high ranking feels like a relic from a previous meta in which it felt much more essential on teams than now.

Here's some noms I'm more whatever on but I feel like they're worth bringing up:

:tangela: B+ -> A-: I feel like Tang is somewhat underrated compared to some other Grass types. Regen remains broken and Tangela's excellent at taking advantage of it, providing long term counterplay to stuff like Sandaconda, Trevenant, and Aggron. Also, although it doesn't like losing its Eviolite, it's actually one of the few decent Tsareena switchins if Tsar lacks U-Turn. Aside from Drampa and Neutralizing Gas Weezing, there's not a lot in the meta that can really claim to take advantage of Tangela that well either, as most of its switchins really don't wanna eat a Knock.

:audino: B- -> B+: Audino's legit even outside stall. Great Wish passer on more passive teams, providing a decent switchin to special menaces like Zard and Guno while also being a decent midground vs Drampa. Regen means you can pass Wishes more freely than something like Aromatisse, which absolutely hates taking chip from hazards etc. Normal typing also is more defensively useful than before because Ghosts have like no resists atm.

:froslass: A- -> B+: CB Lass has known better days, it presently is too weak to really put a dent in things despite its near unresisted STAB combo. As a Spikes setter, meanwhile, it doesn't get a lot of opportunities to come in and do stuff and faces major competition from the much more splashable Ferroseed. Doesn't strike me as belonging in the A ranks.

:gurdurr: B -> C or wherever: Haven't seen this in ages. I'm sure it's not terrible but it seems pretty mediocre as hazard control and faces significant competition from the much more splashable and generally better Scrafty and Sandaconda as a bulky setup sweeper. Just really hard to justify.

:rotom-frost: B -> C/UR: I think I voted this to UR last time and I need someone to convince me why I shouldn't do it again because I really don't see a niche for this thing. Fairly lacking in utility, relies on Blizzard, and its BoltBeam STAB combo is not even unresisted in PU. Doesn't seem worth the trouble, a bump down seems warranted at the very least.

:claydol: B -> C: I used to like this as an SR setter with some valuable immunities and a momentum move, but I don't think this is the right meta for it at all. Longevity is once again the keyword, Claydol just doesn't have that, especially given that just about every good mon other than Gigalith and Sandaconda can chip it decently well. As a spinner it has never been good so don't even start me on that.
 
Last edited:
I have returned from the depths of Discord to once again post VR noms.

:ribombee: a+ -> a
Hot take, but Bee has seen better days. It's tough to make progress when Giga/Aggron/Toge are everywhere, its reliant on getting a QD boost to actually pose a threat, and provides little to no defensive utility despite its semi-decent typing. Specs is a potent breaker nonetheless, but it's not exactly easy to slap onto a team. If A+ is for metagame staples and A is for good mons, then I believe that A is a better fit for Ribombee.

:basculin: b -> b+
This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's seen me gush over it on Discord. This thing is sooooo good at the moment, it's criminal how underrated it is. While the loss of Lisk and Toxicroak have benefited all offensive Water-types, Basculin is a clear-and-cut winner. Banded Liquidation kills pretty much everything except for Grasses, which can be dealt with Superpower/Crunch with the sole exception of Whims and Tangela. Basc's speed tier is a huge boon in this somewhat slower meta, outspeeding the likes of Guno, Zard and Silv forms just to name a few. Basc also isn't a one trick pony as well; while Band is the preferred set for wallbreaking, Specs, AoA, and even SubTox all have their uses. Its general frailty and how vulnerable it is to faster mons is why it shouldn't go higher than B+ atm, but other than that, it's a perfectly serviceable mon rn.

:poliwrath: b- -> b
Was inspired by ojr after seeing him use it and yo, this mon is actually pretty nice. Checks Scrafty, Conda, A-Slash, Wishiwashi, and Steelvally all in one slot, alongside more mons I'm forgetting. Considering how difficult it can be for Fairy-less teams to check Scrafty and to a lesser extent Wishi, Poliwrath is a godsend for these kinds of teams. Scarf acts as a good-ish revenge killer with decent utility with Toxic/Encore, while its tried-and-true Resttalk set is a great deterrent and check to Darks and Silv forms, while providing crucial phazing against sweepers not named Ghostvally. Yes, while Quag can check the same mons Resttalk Poli can, it cannot providing a Water immunity, is infinitely slower, and becomes much easier to pressure when poisoned, something Poliwrath doesn't have to worry about.

:skuntank: :clefairy: :swoobat: :dugtrio-alola: :stunfisk: c -> ur
I have not seen any of the above Pokemon used in any tournament matches nor on ladder, except for Skunk in like two matches. They are either a) horribly outclassed by other mons, b) have such an insignificant niche that's not worth using, c) mandate being built around, or d) a combination of the above three.
 
With the VR Review coming up, I have taken my thoughts on what I think has improved in the meta, and what has not. Because a lot of people have hit the positive notes in their own nominations, I have made my agreements based on folks who nominated pokemon I wanted to nom to the same rank. That left me with a lot of pokemon I feel are overrated, including some of the ones I like, with a surprising exception.

As well, I am using the updated minisprites as icons because it was recommended by Luna's Banned Now and Chlo in the discord. Thank you, you two! And of course, a special thanks to ayo sb who allowed me to use some of his games, and to the general discord crew for providing many opportunities for discussions.

Rank Up

UR -> B-
You know what's hot and popular, and not on the VR? Solrock Lunatone. The rock solid moon needs to come on up on the VR. Lunatone has been on the rise as a niche pokemon with insane top-ladder usage and tournament appearances. It's being used more than Archeops in the 1760 ladder! With Levitate and it's typing, it can come in on Charizard and threaten it out, it can heal itself, and it can set up rocks. It also can set up Future Sight, giving a good role compression on it.

While the PUPL tour does not have any examples of Lunatone, with permission from ayo sb, I have gotten a number of good games showcasing how Lunatone performs in PU. In general, it makes for a good pivot into pokemon that doesn't 2HKO it, and it either moonlights back or skirmishes with solid special attacks or future sight. You can see Lunatone below justify it's teamslot in the respective games; I think a few of the other 'Lunatics' in the tier can offer their own games showcasing that Lunatone does have a niche.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1410592546
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1366214011-0v6l5wc5btrfndwg5r6658h456frmp6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1364758858-927gy3oml0j0v61km0s1uxf59ci42y5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1410613173

What's holding it back? Bad stats plus rock/psychic typing exposes a wide scope of weaknesses, and competition. Lunatone isn't an easy pokemon to use, and the competition for rockers, anti-Zard pokemon, and future sight setters is awfully steep. While levitate and stealth rock neutrality helps, it is awfully dependent on resists to come in safely. Still, I think with the respectable usage on high ladder and the creeping demonstration of Lunatone in the resources for future sight play argues for its viability.

Rank Down

A+ -> A
A minor adjustment for Aggron. I am very positive on Aggron, I consider it my favorite rocker. But Aggron's performance in the PUPL and High Ladder play is concerning though. With 20 uses, it had a 30% win rate (!?), and high ladder usage shows it being less popular as it is in lower tiers. I think it's still a very good pokemon. But looking at its performance compared to its fellow A+ alumni, I feel that it might be overrated. It feels good, it does big damage, it has great resists, but something seems off between it's expectations and performance.

B -> B-
I have used Kabutops many times, and have been disappointed in nearly every type I have used. On paper, it really shouldn't be so bad. It resists Zard's stabs, it's in a good speed spot, it has weak armor, it has priority, setup, pivot move in Flip Turn. But every time I have used Kabutops on my team, I always feel like I wanted another pokemon in the slot. There are better spinners, there are better wallbreakers, there are better sweepers, there are better pivots. So anything you use it for, there is probably a better alternative. I cannot knock it too savagely because it did have a decent winrate in the PUPL… but I also will note that some of those wins include award winning plays from Kabutops such 'not showing up in the fight at all' and 'dodge the will o wisp and out predict the Pass by not switching out'. It's a really unreliable pokemon, and I think that justifies a drop. C+ doesn't exist, so I will opt for B-, but even C may be fair for it.

A -> A-
On the discord, someone was talking about making noms, and on the back and forth, Silvallies were brought up. Of the big three Silvallies, Steel is definitely the best, Ghost is also good. Silvally-Fairy stood out as being kind of mediocre compared to the other two. As a sweeper, it's stopped harder by the likes of Weezing and Aggron. As a bulky utility, its only immunity is the relatively uncommon Dragon AND it takes normal damage from entry hazards makes it less useful as a pivot and defogger. I think it's the worst of the big three right now, and that should reflect it's ranking. It still has some valuable niches, being able to switch into Drampa is fantastic. But when compared to Steel and Ghost, it does feel a mark lower than those two.

A- -> B+
On the discord, Pallosand came up, and I made the comment that Palossand feels like a 'checkbox' pokemon. What I mean by that is that Pallosand often ends up on teams not from the inherent value of the pokemon justifying itself, but in order to check boxes. Pallosand ends up on teams when you need ( ) An electric immunity ( ) Fighting/Normal immunity ( ) Bulky Rocker that ( ) Can Heal itself reliably. There are better electric immunities in the tier. There are better ghosts in the tier. There are better rockers in the tier. And of those rockers, electric immunities, and ghost types in the tier? Several can heal themselves, but not all four of them. This may sound like praise, but what I find is that instead of -building- around Palossand, I use Palossand if I have to or to fill gaps on the team. I would be more lenient on Palossand for being a quiet but powerful threat, but it kind of lets in dangerous pokemon like Scrafty in safely and I really hate that.

Unranks

B- -> UR
I like Piloswine. Nobody uses Piloswine. Nobody uses Piloswine, because its electric immunity is wasted in the tier because those pokemon hit it super effectively anyways, like Lanturn or Togedemaru, or it just gets burned and is useless. Or knocked off and useless. Or just worn down. It does poorly against spinners, like Hitmontop and Tsareena. If more people used Piloswine, the worst it would be because it's flaws would swiftly outweigh the surprise factor. It's usage rivals Shedninja in the tier. I think it needs to be retired from the VR until it starts reappearing in the general usage.

Noms I Agree And Support

B+ -> A-
Gum is right, and so is ICG. Ferroseed has significantly grown on me (Heyooooo). I experimented with it as part of a FerroJelli core, and was surprised how little support it needed, and much support it provided. It can spike or stealth rock, it can knock off threats (like Zard), it can -lure- pokemon that you want to get knocked off (like Zard), it can cripple pokemon with status like toxic or thunder wave if it so pleases you, it can absorb status (because it doesn't care about status, and is immune to the occasional ), and it can actually scare off the frail fast fairies in the tier with Gyro Ball. Iron Barb does an acceptable job of racking up passive damage. It just does so much in a single slot, and it's just short of being too passive. I've always found Ferroseed to be useful when I use it on my team, and it's been showing up more and more on my teams as such. The bottom line is it's easy to get on the field, it's easy to use it to make progress on the other team, and it's easy to get hazards up. Just watch out for pokemon with taunt or encore.

A- -> A
I don't like using Weezing very much. Weezing is also one of the most used pokemon in the tier. Also weezing is the rock standard metric I use for all physical attack metrics, because it's the most defining physical wall in the tier. And based on discussions I have seen on the viability of physical attackers, so do other people. I support it being A tier. It's -the- physical wall of PU. It's the most widely used physical wall in all levels of play, high ladder to low, tours and tournaments.

C -> B-
I have used Thwacky a number of times, and he absolutely has issues. But I like using Thwacky. Banded does good wall breaker work with knock off, pivot, and grassy terrain utility. It's very much feels less like a grassy terrain setter, and more of a generally useful pokemon that also provides grassy terrain. C+ doesn't exist as a rank, so I will give it a full jump to B-.

UR -> C
I am still surprised that Jolteon has been unranked. I still don't like using it but it definitely has a niche so I agree with this rankup. Tungdil, termi, and Heracross all make good arguments on this so this is just a bandwagon at this point.

A- -> B+
I like Froslass a lot, but her weaknesses are beginning to make her a lot more niche. She's a spiker that has a lot of trouble getting in, and a lot of the threats it -could- come in on, they just cripple her with burn or paralysis. She's fallen off of the A tier for me too, and I could get behind her being B+.

B+ -> A
I nominated Jellicent to A- last go around, and Jellicent has still remained a flexible, strong pokemon that I try to include on my team. Termi really hits all the notes, with the most important one (to me) being how Jellicent feels like a genuinely good mon. When I mentioned Palossand, I talked about how Palossand checked boxes. Jellicent checks boxes AND provides diverse utility for your team AND offensive presence, with both being really up to how much utility vs offense you want for it. I'll support an A rank.

B- -> C
I talked about 'pokemon that check boxes' on Palossand, and Claydol is basically the same. It does have a niche still, so I wouldn't UR. I sometimes use it for specific jobs, especially for a bulky teleport pivot. But it definitely has gotten bad.

Thank you for reading, and if you have any feedback, I would be happy to hear from you about it!

Edit: Added another Lunatone fight, demonstrating it's pivot potential in the Weezing and Zard matchup. Thank you ayo sb!
 
Last edited:

2xTheTap

Nihilego my Eggo!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
PU Leader
Hello again! Council (minus HJAD) voted on all of your noms over the weekend. Given there were 6 of us voting, some of these votes ended in a tie and so their original rankings prior to this vote were retained (that is, assuming not everyone was for a rise / drop - there were some cases like Gurdurr where we couldn't agree on how far it should drop, or Jellicent where we couldn't agree on how much it should rise). We took some extra time to discuss these noms that the 6 of us were split on, so this update is coming out a bit later than it usually does. Per usual, we provided some of our own noms too (marked with *; I did a lot of these, given the VR was looking like our meta from early PUPL instead of reflecting our post-PULT and SCL meta). Here are the results:

RANKED TO UNRANKED (DROPS)
B
:Piloswine: B- to UR

C
:Carracosta: C to UR
*:Sableye: C to UR
:Skuntank: C to UR



UNRANKED TO RANKED (RISES)
C
:Altaria: to C
:Eldegoss: to C
:Jolteon: to C
:Kadabra: to C
:Lunatone: to C
:Thievul: to C

*:Vanilluxe: to C


DROPS
A
*:Passimian: S to A+
*:Regirock: A to A-
:Silvally: (Steel) A+ to A

B
*:Absol: B to B-
:Froslass: A- to B+
*:Frosmoth: B to B-
:Gurdurr: B to B-
:Palossand: A- to B+
*:Scyther: B+ to B

C
:Kangaskhan: B- to C

:Rotom-Frost: B to C
*:Silvally: (Dark) B- to C
*:Silvally: (Water) B- to C



RISES
S
:Gigalith: A+ to S
:Tsareena: A+ to S

A
*:Articuno-Galar: A to A+
:Drampa: A to A+
:Ferroseed: B+ to A
:Jellicent: B+ to A-
:Weezing: A- to A+

B
:Audino: B- to B+
*:Galvantula: C to B
*:Hitmontop: B to B+
*:Miltank: B to B+
:Poliwrath: B- to B
*:Qwilfish: B to B+
*:Sandslash: B- to B



TIED UP VOTES
:Claydol: B to B- or C (3 for B, 3 for C)
:Gurdurr: B to B- or C (3 for B-, 3 for C)

:Jellicent: B+ to A- or A (3 for A-, 3 for A)
:Togedemaru: A+ to A (3 for A+, 3 for A)
*:Appletun: C to UR (3 for C, 3 for UR)
*:Cofagrigus: B+ to A- (3 for B+, 3 for A-)
*:Quagsire: A- to A (3 for A-, 3 for A)



This was a large update that became even larger, as I personally felt that the VR, even factoring in everyone's updates in this thread, resembled something closer to early-stage PUPL instead of what we're currently playing with, so I added a lot of my own nominations this time around. The first meta trend you'll notice here is that very fat Pokemon, especially those used to answer meta-defining threats like Aggron, Charizard, Tsareena, etc., all went up in viability: ex. Gigalith, Audino, Miltank, Ferroseed, Jellicent, Weezing, etc. all went up at least one subrank. Even uncommon Pokemon like Altaria and Lunatone were moved up for their ability to check Charizard while sporting reliable recovery. You can see this trend of fat becoming more common in games like neider vs Lambovino (SCL).

In response, powerful wallbreakers like Drampa, FS or Specs Articuno-Galar, Specs Jellicent, etc. also went up in viability (an example of Specs Jellicent putting in work on a predicted Weezing switch: termi vs Chlo); there's a visible trend now where people are building more defensively than they have been previously in order to cover as many Pokemon in this meta as possible, given that the meta is still oversaturated with threats and running offense right now is therefore more difficult and more match-up reliant. The key take-away for me in watching many of these SCL and PULT games has been, always remember your stall/wallbreaker! We saw tlenit make good use of Perrserker (here), which is something that can make easy progress in the face of Quagsire and other bulky Ground- and Water-types (via Seed Bomb), Ferroseed and other Steel-types (via Close Combat), and Fairies and Gigalith (via Iron Head). Perrserker was not nommed by anyone this update, but expect more wallbreakers like Perrserker to rise in viability and see more usage in the future. I've seen similar fortune myself with using off-meta Pokemon like Specs Weak Armor Vanilluxe - simply weaken Gigalith/SpDef Togedemaru, and it's on its way to victory. Many of these breakers are very easy to bring in safely off of a pivot, ex. Tsareena into Specs Jellicent on a Weezing switch, or Archeops into Drampa on a predicted Palossand / Regirock switch. Pokemon that eat up U-turn and are often forced to switch into Archeops, ex. Palossand and Regirock, are slow enough that they're liable to be broken afterward by something like Drampa, Arctovish, Jellicent, etc. So, the more defensive portions of the meta that are too slow to creep breakers like Modest Drampa have been more difficult to use in this meta, more or less, assuming they don't have outs like Protect to alleviate that offensive pressure. Gigalith is also just extremely reliable and so Regirock and other SR users face quite a bit of competition here, which justified Regirock dropping one subrank (perhaps it may be better to run enough Speed and Body Press for Modest Drampa?).

Conversely, many Pokemon that are strong against offense and HO teams but have trouble making progress against more defensive ones dropped in viability, ex. Silvally-Steel has a really hard time making progress against bulkier teams that utilize options like bulky Jellicent and Quagsire, as it's hard-pressed while running Flame Charge sets to drop Rock Slide (necessary coverage for Charizard) in favor of more niche options like mixed sets with Grass Pledge. More notably, Passimian dropped out of S; it's something that can make good progress through Knock Off, but with Weezing being much more common than it used to be as a result of people using more Tsareena, Passimian has a much tougher time safely committing to any of its options; on top of that, Protect from a lot of these fat Pokemon like Ferroseed and Gigalith, and RH / Rough Skin / Iron Barbs (Spiky Shield) from Pokemon like Weezing, defensive Druddigon, Togedemaru being pretty common puts a damper on how much Passimian can accomplish. Passimian just doesn't fit as well as it used to, and makes less progress than it previously could in a meta more defined by offensive Pokemon than defensive ones. Having said that, it's still a great choice for many teams, so it only dropped a subrank. Perhaps try experimenting with other sets that are more effective against fatter teams, like CB or Taunt, while moving your speed control to a different slot.

There was a bit more here to comment on, especially the Pokemon listed above that Council was split on. So, we'd like to hear more from the community on Quagsire / Cofagrigus / Appletun / Togedemaru / Jellicent / Gurdurr / Claydol: do their placements on the VR accurately reflect their viability in this meta? Do you have other noms? Or, would you like to see other changes in the VR not related to any of this, like using different sprites from Serebii (this has been mentioned to me in Discord!). As usual, if there are any questions you have about the above, feel free to PM me or ask in Discord/PS chat.
 
Last edited:
TIED UP VOTES
:Gurdurr: B to B- or C (3 for B-, 3 for C)
From what I’m reading here, all 6 people voting had voted to move Gurdurr down; instead of just keeping it at B because it wasn’t agreed whether it should drop to B- or C, wouldn’t it make more sense to just drop it to B- since it was unanimously agreed it should drop at least one subrank?

EDIT: And I just noticed the same is true for Jellicent but in the opposite direction where it was unanimously agreed to rise but ended up not changing position on the VR.
 

2xTheTap

Nihilego my Eggo!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
PU Leader
From what I’m reading here, all 6 people voting had voted to move Gurdurr down; instead of just keeping it at B because it wasn’t agreed whether it should drop to B- or C, wouldn’t it make more sense to just drop it to B- since it was unanimously agreed it should drop at least one subrank?

EDIT: And I just noticed the same is true for Jellicent but in the opposite direction where it was unanimously agreed to rise but ended up not changing position on the VR.
Jellicent did rise from B+ to A-, and Gurdurr did drop from B to B- at least, see above. There was the potential for these changes to be more drastic than they were though, which council wasn't agreed on. Re: Gurdurr, there is the idea that, in a meta where we have Gigalith moving to S, removal that actually beats Gigalith and keeps SR down is usable. On the other hand, Gurdurr is a defogger that lacks reliable recovery and struggles in a meta with Weezing, Jellicent, etc. everywhere. In contrast to its effectiveness vs Gigalith as a removal option, it doesn't keep Toxic Spikes off the field at all vs Weezing. It's basically difficult for Gurdurr to not be constantly on the backfoot, even if it's good in theory against the meta's SR users, given that it's often taking residual damage from Gigalith's Sand, Weezing's Rocky Helmet, and so on.
 
Hey I’ve been trying to build again recently and it’s been fun so I figured I’d post some noms of Pokémon I have/haven’t been enjoying. If u disagree w any of them feel free to prove me wrong bc more discussion is always cool:

:centiskorch: B -> A
This might seem like a huge jump but Centi is one of the best if not the second best single breaker in the tier rn; first should go to drampa. Despite its flaws like being heavy duty boots reliant and slow, it’s excellent at breaking apart defensive cores. Centi itself has no switchins aside from the uncommon qwilfish which makes it exceptional against stall in particular and a great progress maker. Pwhip/knock/leech life/fire lash nails the entire tier; it’s fairly easy to get it in vs something like ferroseed, ribombee, or quagsire and just start breaking. The uptick of quag and ferroseed helps it as well; and getting boots knocked isn’t a huge issue considering tsareena is amazing rn as a spinner. Centi is in a great place atm and it should see eye to eye to the a ranked mons due to how easy it is to slap on teams.

:quagsire: A- -> A
Quagsire is great and blanket checks a ton of mons in the tier; a lot of which are huge threats in the meta. All of the SDvallies, scrafty, passimian, togedemaru, sandaconda, aggron, lycanroc, Archeops become a non issue when u slap a quagsire on ur team, which really says a lot about this Pokémon’s effectiveness in the meta for compression. Even answers like whimsicott and tsareena hate switching into toxic/scald. Quag is notorious for being put on stall but rn it’s also just amazing defensively on balance and putting it above the more fringe mons in a- should represent that nicely.

:whimsicott: A -> B+/B
I really dislike whimsicott bc it’s so awkward and it’s hard to justify using it bc of that on a majority of teams. As a fairy it doesn’t get recovery to check scrafty consistently, as a defogger it can’t really remove on any hazard setters bar sandaconda, and it’s god awful offensively. Its poor typing/bulk makes it really awkward to get in combined with no recovery and its offensive typing is generally just shit with low offensive stats leaving it walled by common pokemon, a few of which are on the rise rn such as weezing and ferroseed. I can’t remember the last time I looked at a team and went “yeah whimsicott fits here” because it’s just so awful.

:eldegoss: C -> B
Eldegoss is really cool for removal over the traditional tsareena; I’d say it’s actually the best at solely removing atm. The thing with pu rn is that all the common defoggers die once they’re knocked(charizard) or need support to function (steelvally, whimsicott) so they generally are awkward to fit on a majority of teams. The rapid spinners are really passive and don’t do much back to the hazard setters with the exception of tsareena which is why it’s amazing atm. Eldegoss is like a combination of tangela and tsareena; as removal it doesn’t really care about getting chipped down because of regenerator which means it has an amazing matchup against common setters like aggron, ferroseed, gigalith, and palossand. Tsareena has to worry about getting chipped down despite being great removal and tangela of course can’t remove hazards despite being great defensively. Eldegoss also gets utility in leech/aromatherapy/stun spore so it’s not too one dimensional. I’ve been running giga drain/spin/synthesis/filler move and it’s been going really well. Here are some games which show how good eldegoss can be: replay 1, replay 2

:sneasel: B -> B+
Cool speed tier and coverage makes it a good breaker. Really liked the team lambo brought in scl which iirc was spikes + sd sneasel but I generally think 4 attacks is best since low kick is really good for killing aggron.

:magneton: B -> UR
Magneton is awful and should not be used on any team ever. It’s extremely weak as a scarfer and has no defensive utility. Steel typing and magnet pull are cool on paper until you realize it’s not a good steel as it has next to no bulk and the steel pokemon it can “trap” (aggron, Steelvally) only really face the threat of volt switching out for a bit of chip damage. Losing hp fire and not having body press means it can’t beat other steels like ferroseed and togedemaru which is sad.
 
:eldegoss: C -> B
Eldegoss is really cool for removal over the traditional tsareena; I’d say it’s actually the best at solely removing atm. The thing with pu rn is that all the common defoggers die once they’re knocked(charizard) or need support to function (steelvally, whimsicott) so they generally are awkward to fit on a majority of teams. The rapid spinners are really passive and don’t do much back to the hazard setters with the exception of tsareena which is why it’s amazing atm. Eldegoss is like a combination of tangela and tsareena; as removal it doesn’t really care about getting chipped down because of regenerator which means it has an amazing matchup against common setters like aggron, ferroseed, gigalith, and palossand. Tsareena has to worry about getting chipped down despite being great removal and tangela of course can’t remove hazards despite being great defensively. Eldegoss also gets utility in leech/aromatherapy/stun spore so it’s not too one dimensional. I’ve been running giga drain/spin/synthesis/filler move and it’s been going really well. Here are some games which show how good eldegoss can be: replay 1, replay 2
I 100% support this decision, after some stall testing Eldegoss is invaluable for stall teams due to its incredible role compression, Key Resist in Grass (Water and Ground are also nice), pairing incredibly well with tier staple Gigalith in order to check many of PU's threats. It being a spinner that can punish spinblockers and switch ins in general with Sleep Powder is also great and specifically on stall teams, Aromatherapy is a great way to support Pokemon, specially the aforementioned Gigalith, so while it definitely has flaws, such as no offensive presence, competition from other grasses, specially tier queen Tsareena, and 4MSS and lack of options at the same time, its pros greatly outweight the cons in some teams, which seems adequate for B

Sadly I don't have many replays, and the one I have is against low ladder, sorry.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1433277362
 
nom nom nom!

:sandaconda: a -> a+: the #1 used pokemon in scl post-passimian meta, barely after ribombee, and for good reason. sr set is one of the most splashable blanket physical mon checks in the tier especially since teams really benefit a mon that puts boosting vallies, u-turn mons, and archeops in its place while always generating progress with its support kit. coil has also emerged to one of the most solid wincons in the tier, applying immense pressure to slower teams that rely on conventional means to take it down defensively and ensuring great survivability between its bulk and sskin rest.

:ferroseed: a -> a+: clearly the best spikes user that frequently finds its place among defensive and offensive cores alike more than any other. ferroseed's ability to apply pressure and set up dominant gameplans immediately forces immediate responses to it, as otherwise it's a big component to deciding what happens in matches. its tour results are a great telling of this.

:audino: b+ -> a-: seeing an increasing trend of audino in a stall-less context is a revelation worth noting. turns out it gives a lot of offenses a nice blend of support and defensive cushion to fall back to, with tools like knock off, toxic, and encore to accentuate pressure regardless of the situation. so far it has been working out well results-wise, so i think it’s justified to rank it higher to reflect that.

:jellicent: a- -> a: specs is a top tier wallbreaker and defensive sets have shown to adapt quite favorably in the meta, as evidenced by tlenit's team where it can be used as a fairly nice pivot into specs drampa, among other things.

:clefairy: c -> b: now that we've had time to see how ppl are doing incorporating clef into builds, it's safe to say that it's bordering on being a real defensive staple in the meta. it's scl results don't lie, proving it to be option to uphold reliable defensive cores together, and because of that, you see stuff like sanda more frequently having room to run coil. its most common set appears to be spdef mblast / toxic / softboiled / stealth rock, which is solid on its own and blanket checks a lot of the relevant meta. other options can include knock off, teleport (tho incompatible with softboiled, meaning you'll need stronger gigalith couterplay on the team), etc which gives it a little more depth. overall, new flavor of the month that is worthy of its rise at this point.

:perrserker: c -> b: this kitty is cracked. other than tlenit's one-time success w/ sub+3 attacks, cb steely spirit is putting in serious work. it's a crazy strong breaker that exploits a lot of the defensive meta with the means to break through physical walls like sanda, ferroseed, and quagsire that cb aggron can only dream of. on that of that, it has momentum, and being a steel-type with decent bulk, has defensive utility in a pinch that can pivot into mons like bee, gigalith, eldegoss, mesprit, and guno.

:silvally:(poison): b- to b: vally defoggers are inherently flawed due to their lack of recovery and inability to run boots, but poisonvally is clearly working out as the best of the bunch. tspikes absorber, solid fairy check, tsar check, and knock off absorber in one are great qualities all in one, and its tendency to force out a consistent pool of threats while keeping momentum can play in its team's favor a lot of the time. offensive sets are fine, although it's probably the most reliant on grass pledge which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

:scyther: b to b+: go back up imo. not only is it the pu's strongest u-turn user, but it generates a lot of free turns due to that and its speed tier. if we continue to see a trend of defensive and offensive pokemon it exploits (tsareena, eldegoss, centiskorch, scrafty), it'll always remain good and successful, as shown by its win rate in scl up to this point. recent adaptations include knock off and brick break to exploit common switchins (aggron, togedemaru, aloslash, ferroseed), so even if you aren't using sd (not as consistent imo) you can still adjust with the right read as u-turn and knock off are good all-rounder options to click in most scenarios.

:jolteon: and :kangaskhan: c to b-: they fit on similar archetypes but what's important is that those playstyles are on the rise in terms of consistency, making them more functional. teammates like weezing and ferro really play to their strengths well, and they're by no means outclassed in what they do as jolteon for example has a volt immunity and can even fit options like wish to supplant longevity for its teammates that lack reliable recovery like the aforementioned weezing/ferro. kanga needs stacking to play its game, but once it does, it goes ham.

oh and free s tier :scrafty:!
 

termi

the eye of the needle
is a Tiering Contributor
Looking at the VR I keep noticing things I disagree with, but rather than making another full nom post I'm just dropping how I'd personally organize the VR more or less, with brief explanations for rises and drops.

S-Rank
  • :Tsareena: Tsareena
A-Rank

A+
  • :Aggron: Aggron
  • :Charizard: Charizard (zard doesnt consistently make progress the way it used to, it doesn't always find opportunity to come in and even when it does it has to get past sturdy special walls like audino and clef which dont care abt toxic)
  • :Drampa: Drampa
  • :Ferroseed: Ferroseed (easy contender for our best defensive steel and this should be reflected in the rankings)
  • :Gigalith: Gigalith (i dont know why this ever rose to S to begin with, it's very one-dimensional and it's not like its one good set doesn't have its share of flaws. obviously still hella splashable but not S rank splashable)
  • :Ribombee: Ribombee
  • :Scrafty: Scrafty
A
  • :Archeops: Archeops (very dangerous mon but also kinda hard to fit and make work, especially given that zard isnt quite as dominant as before and thats really the only thing you switch into with this thing)
  • :Articuno-Galar: Articuno-Galar (another very dangerous mon that is hard to actually fit in the builder and make work, definitely wouldnt drop it below here because future sight and specs sets can be devastating with team support but it's not dominant enough to be A+ imo)
  • :Mesprit: Mesprit
  • :Sandaconda: Sandaconda
  • :Silvally-Ghost: Silvally-Ghost
  • :Togedemaru: Togedemaru (just see my previous post in this thread for this one)
  • :Weezing: Weezing (it has noticeable flaws in that it lets in a lot of dangerous special breakers and is susceptible to getting worn down. its prevalence makes A+ understandable but between its flaws and its slightly reduced utility in post-pass meta i think it's too high)
  • :Whimsicott: Whimsicott
A-
  • :Audino: Audino (only reason i dont nom this higher is because it has clear passivity issues, its entry in the top 10 most used mons in scl should make it clear that this is a defensive staple tho)
  • :Centiskorch: Centiskorch (really awkward to build with imo but it eats fat balance that has become popular for breakfast and there's not much u can do about it in the builder)
  • :Gallade: Gallade (similar reasons as the above, plus its most direct competition is gone)
  • :Jellicent: Jellicent
  • :quagsire: Quagsire
  • :Regirock: Regirock
  • :Silvally: Silvally-Fairy (really just a matter of being hard to fit for me, it doesnt rly offer the same utility as bee/whimsi because pivot sets kinda stink in boots meta so i feel it only rly fits as a breaker)
B-Rank

B+
  • :Clefairy: Clefairy (rapidly solidified a niche on balance as a rocker that checks drampa and other special attackers while not minding status or hazards)
  • :Froslass: Froslass
  • :Frosmoth: Frosmoth (moth appreciated recent shifts a lot, losing two offensive checks. good at abusing passive teams, very little can stop it once the gigalith/steel is weakened)
  • :Gourgeist: Gourgeist-Small
  • :Hitmontop: Hitmontop
  • :Qwilfish: Qwilfish
  • :Rotom: Rotom
  • :Sandslash-Alola: Sandslash-Alola
  • :Scyther: Scyther (still not a fan of building with this thing but admittedly it's had a pretty strong showing in scl so far, knock + u-turn is just a really easy way to force progress)
  • :Sneasel: Sneasel (awkward to build with but very dangerous, serves as good speed control and even has an easier time cleaning up with scarf pass out of the picture)
  • :Tangela: Tangela
  • :Vikavolt: Vikavolt
  • :Wishiwashi-School: Wishiwashi
B
  • :Basculin: Basculin
  • :Cofagrigus: Cofagrigus (never was a big fan of this, on paper it cleans a lot of teams but it's both weird to build with and hard to actually get going vs a lot of teams because of offensive pressure + hazards whittling cofa easily)
  • :Druddigon: Druddigon (other rockers tend to offer more utility on most teams)
  • :Galvantula: Galvantula
  • :Haunter: Haunter
  • :Kabutops: Kabutops
  • :Lanturn: Lanturn (zard has become less dominant and lanturn now faces competition from other sdef utility mons like audino and clef, moreover it has started needing to juggle moves again in order to not become total drampa bait. disappointing scl usage speaks for itself)
  • :Lycanroc: Lycanroc
  • :Magneton: Magneton
  • :Miltank: Miltank (technically it durably checks ghosts, tsareena, archeops, and fire types, but not all at the same time due to 4mss and 1 ability syndrome(?). feel like audino w/ a superior rocker is a better approach if you're looking for a fat normal type)
  • :Perrserker: Perrserker (being a fake steel sucks but cb and sd sets admittedly are very dangerous for fat balance and stall so for that id say it deserves a decent bump up in the ranks)
  • :Poliwrath: Poliwrath
  • :Sandslash: Sandslash
  • :Sawk: Sawk (becomes a lot more viable after passimian's departure. faces competition from gallade but distinguishes itself thru slightly different coverage and a speed tier that allows it to run ada more comfortably. scarf seems mid but aoa sets are threatening)
  • :Trevenant: Trevenant (hard to build a good team with bc we have more useful grass types and it synergizes poorly with knock off users. incredibly dangerous in certain matchups but it is kind of a fish, B+ seems too high)
B-
  • :Absol: Absol
  • :Articuno: Articuno
  • :Exeggutor: Exeggutor
  • :Flapple: Flapple
  • :Gourgeist: Gourgeist-XL (this thing doesn't look great in drampa meta. inclined to drop it even further but i guess the otr set still is scary, if inconsistent)
  • :Gurdurr: Gurdurr
  • :Palossand: Palossand (0 scl usage really shows how much this former metagame staple has fallen off. good defensive typing on paper but awkward to fit on most teams in practice, especially considering how easily drampa exploits it)
  • :Rhydon: Rhydon
  • :Runerigus: Runerigus
  • :Silvally-Dragon: Silvally-Dragon
  • :Silvally-Ground: Silvally-Ground
  • :Silvally-Poison: Silvally-Poison
  • :Stunfisk-Galar: Stunfisk-Galar
  • :Uxie: Uxie
C-Rank

C
  • :Accelgor: Accelgor
  • :Alcremie: Alcremie
  • :Altaria: Altaria
  • :Appletun: Appletun
  • :Arctovish: Arctovish (doesn't offer speed or defensive utility and is not good enough as a breaker to compensate for that imo. fat water resists like ferro and jelli are fairly popular and the latter does the water type breaker thing better with its specs set anyway)
  • :Aromatisse: Aromatisse (easily exploited by hazard setters and more or less outclassed as a wish passer by audino at this point, while facing competition as a bulky fairy from clefairy)
  • :Carbink: Carbink
  • :Cinccino: Cinccino
  • :Claydol: Claydol (it's a bulky ground that sucks at being a bulky ground, specific teams may find it useful but every time i consider using this mon i end up discarding the idea because it's too easily chipped, has too many weaknesses, and is too passive)
  • :Coalossal: Coalossal
  • :Ditto: Ditto
  • :Dugtrio-Alola: Dugtrio-Alola
  • :Eldegoss: Eldegoss
  • :Golbat: Golbat (cant remember the last time i saw a golbat team that wasnt structurally unsound, sorry but it's pretty bad)
  • :hattrem: Hattrem (mini hat kinda sucks but the prevalence of passive ass hazard setters like ferroseed and clef admittedly gives it a niche)
  • :Hitmonlee: Hitmonlee
  • :Jolteon: Jolteon
  • :Jynx: Jynx
  • :Kadabra: Kadabra
  • :Kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
  • :Lilligant: Lilligant
  • :Ludicolo: Ludicolo
  • :Lunatone: Lunatone
  • :Magmortar: Magmortar (hard to get in, mostly an inferior zard with more firepower that also relies on inaccurate moves. it has potential as a dedicated stallbreaker or something but it's almost never worth considering over other breakers tbh)
  • :Persian-Alola: Persian-Alola
  • :pyukumuku: Pyukumuku
  • :Rotom-Frost: Rotom-Frost
  • :Shiftry: Shiftry
  • :Silvally: Silvally-Water
  • :Stunfisk: Stunfisk
  • :Swoobat: Swoobat
  • :Thievul: Thievul
  • :Throh: Throh
  • :Thwackey: Thwackey
  • :Turtonator: Turtonator
  • :Vanilluxe: Vanilluxe

UR:
  • :Aurorus: Aurorus: the meteor beam set is funny in theory but i dont think is ever really worth using, archeops probably does it better anyway. i just havent seen the evidence that aurorus has a serious niche
  • :Malamar: Malamar: for how much longer do we have to pretend that inferior scrafty that dies to u-turn has a significant enough niche to be worth ranking
  • :Silvally: Silvally-Dark: this never really got going at all, dont know why you'd use this over another dark type or another vally except for surprise factor ig?
 
:Aromatisse: Aromatisse (easily exploited by hazard setters and more or less outclassed as a wish passer by audino at this point, while facing competition as a bulky fairy from clefairy)
I was just going to post about how I think Aromatisse shouldn't be down in C, but I actually think it can rise to B+ to be even with Clefairy.

I don't have much experience with Audino and Clefairy, but I feel like A- (Aud) -> B+ (Clef) -> B+ (Tisse) describes their viability much better than the suggested A- -> B+ -> C does. Aromatisse may not have Regenerator or Magic Guard, but it's still up there with Audino and Clefairy.

Here's how each of them fairs as a (specs) Drampa check:
(None can switch safely in w/o a prediction because Drampa can 2HKO)
Audino (Clicking Knock):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 285-336 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 429-505 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
(After knock and 1 draco:)
-2 252+ SpA Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 96-114 (23.4 - 27.8%) -- 78% chance to 4HKO
Audino can't KO Drampa and is either forced to be sacked or switched.

Clefairy (again clicking knock first):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 157-186 (45.6 - 54%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 105-124 (30.5 - 36%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 150-176 (45.1 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
Clefairy can knock, heal after a second hyper voice, and KO.

Aromatisse (w/ boots & CM):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 193-228 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 129-153 (31.8 - 37.7%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
+1 8 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 332-392 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Aromatisse uses CM-> Wish -> prot -> Blast and always OHKOs Drampa w/ 8 SpA EVs)

Without Gunk Shot Pass running around, Aromatisse can run SpD sets. Basically, Aromatisse can take on Drampa almost as well as Clefairy, and better than Audino. Also, due to not relying on knock, using Aromatisse allows you to switch a ghost into Hyper Voice safely, which Audino and Clefairy can't offer.

Aromatisse is also slightly bulkier than Clefairy is:
252 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 254-302 (73.8 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 284-336 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I couldn't think of a better special poison/steel than Weezing, sry)
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 108-128 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 78.6% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 134-158 (33 - 39%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recover

So, why should a better Drampa check than Audino with slightly more bulk than Clefairy be in C? It shouldn't. Aromatisse holds its own among these defensive staples. Aromatisse also has the advantage of fitting in setup with CM, making its 99 SpA (Compared to Audino and Clef's base 60s) actually threatning. Also, unlike Clefairy, Aromatisse can afford to run leftovers and can actually absorb Knock Off, due to not being item-reliant. The only thing that Clefairy has as a defensive fairy that Aromatisse doesn't is an immunity to toxic poison and utility moves.

Aromatisse is almost like a mix between Audino and Clefairy, being a cleric and a solid Drampa check, and its ability to do that job well, while also being the least passive of the bunch, makes it deserve B+.

EDIT: Probably should note that I based this off of where termi nominated Audino and Clefairy because I forgot to check the actual VR, so if I were to use the actual VR rankings Aromatisse would stay in B and still be higher than Clefairy (or equal to depending if Clef rises).
 
Last edited:

tlenit

is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
Moderator
I was just going to post about how I think Aromatisse shouldn't be down in C, but I actually think it can rise to B+ to be even with Clefairy.

I don't have much experience with Audino and Clefairy, but I feel like A- (Aud) -> B+ (Clef) -> B+ (Tisse) describes their viability much better than A- -> B+ -> C does. Aromatisse may not have Regenerator or Magic Guard, but it's still up there with Audino and Clefairy.

Here's how each of them fairs as a (specs) Drampa check:
(None can switch safely in w/o a prediction because Drampa can 2HKO)
Audino (Clicking Knock):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 285-336 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 429-505 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
(After knock and 1 draco:)
-2 252+ SpA Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 96-114 (23.4 - 27.8%) -- 78% chance to 4HKO
Audino can't KO Drampa and is either forced to be sacked or switched.

Clefairy (again clicking knock first):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 157-186 (45.6 - 54%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 105-124 (30.5 - 36%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 150-176 (45.1 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
Clefairy can knock, heal after a second hyper voice, and KO.

Aromatisse (w/ boots & CM):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 193-228 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 129-153 (31.8 - 37.7%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
+1 8 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 140 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 332-392 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Aromatisse uses CM-> Wish -> prot -> Blast and always OHKOs Drampa w/ 8 SpA EVs)

Without Gunk Shot Pass running around, Aromatisse can run SpD sets. Basically, Aromatisse can take on Drampa almost as well as Clefairy, and better than Audino. Also, due to not relying on knock, using Aromatisse allows you to switch a ghost into Hyper Voice safely, which Audino and Clefairy can't offer.

Aromatisse is also slightly bulkier than Clefairy is:
252 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 254-302 (73.8 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 284-336 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I couldn't think of a better special poison/steel than Weezing, sry)
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 108-128 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 78.6% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 134-158 (33 - 39%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recover

So, why should a better Drampa check than Audino with slightly more bulk than Clefairy be in C? It shouldn't. Aromatisse holds its own among these defensive staples. Aromatisse also has the advantage of fitting in setup with CM, making its 99 SpA (Compared to Audino and Clef's base 60s) actually threatning. Also, unlike Clefairy, Aromatisse can afford to run leftovers and can actually absorb Knock Off, due to not being item-reliant. The only thing that Clefairy has as a defensive fairy that Aromatisse doesn't is an immunity to toxic poison and utility moves.

Aromatisse is almost like a mix between Audino and Clefairy, being a cleric and a solid Drampa check, and its ability to do that job well, while also being the least passive of the bunch, makes it deserve B+.
I will keep it short. Wish is probably the worst possible self healing move after life dew, bcs you are forced to protect to get the wish come true.

The sequence can and will easily go in competitive scenes: Aromatisse comes in vs. Drampas hyper voice and takes 50%-ish as you pointed. Following turn Drampa can pretty freely hit hyper voice again and force Aromatisse down to 1-13% unless two absolute max rolls which will KO Aromatisse. Third turn Aromatisse is forced to protect to regain HP meaning Drampa has absolute free switchin out. Next time Drampa comes in, you cant bring brainlessly Aromatisse in since its around 60% at this point.

So, theres that and on another note i dont think audino, clef and aromatisse should be that high regardless, but thats entirely different story.

Cheers bud
 

Heracross2.0

Man, what a bunch'a jokers!
is a Pre-Contributor
my-image (4).png


The Gourgeist in B+ is Small and the one in B- is XL.

Idk what everyone else used, I used this.

People already went over some of my changes so I'll just talk about the big ones.



Tsareena's viability is very weird imo. It's at least a top 3 mon, but at the same time it feels...less valuable than either Zard or Giga, both in the builder and in practice. In practice, I often find myself wanting at least 6 moves with Tsar (Whip/Spin/Knock/U-turn/Synthesis/HJK or other coverage), and not having one of them makes Tsareena so much less impactful, specifically in the last two moveslots. No Knock means it's much harder to wear down switchins like Sap Sipper Miltank and Ferroseed, no U-turn makes you a sitting duck and unable to generate momentum, no Synthesis makes Tsar a less reliable Spinner, and while it is possible to go without coverage like HJK or Play Rough, it makes Tsar a less effective breaker overall, especially if it is also forgoing U-turn. The popularity of switchins such as Ferroseed (A), Weezing (A+, most used mon in SCL), and Drampa (A+) also make me skeptical of an S Rank for it. Compare that to Charizard's switchins, where one sits at S (Gigalith), and the next best options are Archeops (A+ but has seen less than 10% SCL usage) and Audino (B+). Again, Tsareena is a very effective and powerful Pokemon right now, I just feel that there's a big enough gap between it and Gigalith/Charizard to warrant a drop (or create an S- rank for it).

:rotom:
I have been loving Rotom lately. With Togedemaru and Lanturn dropping off in usage, the most common Electric immunity in Sandaconda takes a considerable amount from Shadow Ball and it doesn't care for the Glare + Earthquake combination because of Levitate + paralysis immunity. This means that Rotom generates momentum like no one's business with Volt. The rise of Drampa and Audino should, in theory, stifle Rotom from clicking its Ghost STAB, but it Volts on them into a partner like Gallade that can abuse them. I was also too harsh on Defog sets in the past. The main hazard deterrent, Galarian Articuno, does not enjoy coming in on its STAB, and with Colbur + Wisp, it can deny Tsareena's attempts at removing hazards. It does have issues, such as having to use Pain Split for recovery and pretty meh power without Specs, but I would heavily suggest using Rotom, as it is surprisingly effective in the current meta.


My reasoning behind this drop is, "It's seen really low usage and win rate in SCL, this must mean it's not as effective as it used to be". My mind can definitely be changed and I'm not 100% confident in this nom, but it makes more sense to me than it staying in A. Compared to its compatriots in A, it feels less splashable than any of them. This is mostly due to a middling Speed tier, a poor STAB, and a lacking defensive presence. It also faces massive competition from Galarian Articuno; while Galarcuno is weak to Rocks and has an equally poor defensive profile, it is much more devastating when given openings, particularly with the FS + Roar strategies despite their inconsistencies at times. Meanwhile, despite Mesprit's colorful movepool, it rarely gets to use these moves due to special attacking sets generally being superior. At times, it ends up feeling like a master-of-none than a jack-of-all-trades.


Sorry, but I think it being a passive momentum sink impacts any chance it has of it being at a higher rank. It's only really good at switching into Charizard and Drampa not running Focus Blast (btw use Focus Blast on those mons, it's cool), Galarian Articuno that don't click Future Sight when it comes in, Whimsicott that don't click U-turn when it comes in, and a few more niche special attackers like Frosmoth. Everything else can abuse/threaten in it, and while Regen is a broken ability that allows more leeway from switching out than, say, Aromatisse, the popularity of hazard stacking cores, NGas Weezing, and Knock means that it's not hard to make sure Regen is at least neutered, if not outright negated. It also really wants Knock/Toxic/Bell/Encore for its last two moves, and lacking any of them makes it much less effective at its role. Plus, all of the defensive staples in A- to S have ways to get around their passiveness. Gigalith has Sand, Weezing has NGas + Taunt + can spread status effectively, Scrafty boosts itself while having Shed Skin, Ferroseed has Iron Barbs + Leech Seed, Togedemaru has U-turn, Jellicent has Taunt + status spreader (if Toxic), and while Quagsire is still passive, Unaware makes it great at walling SDvally forms and other physical sweepers. Audino has nothing on a similar level compared to these, so I can't really see a reason for it to rise.


On second thought this should probably stay at B, but Magneton is a very underrated breaker right now with Analytic + a solid STAB combination. Like Rotom, it loves the fact that Togedemaru and Lanturn are dropping in usage, while the most common Electric immunity, Sandaconda, is 2HKOed by Specs Flash Cannon. A lot of my reasoning for Rotom rising is very similar to Magneton: great power, good at generating momentum, really good secondary STAB, but Magneton's lower speed tier and pretty poor defensive typing ultimately limit its opportunities to come in. However, offensive sets are surprisingly malleable, as shown here during Week 7 of SCl, where Sub Metal Sound Magneton was able to wear down the Steel resist and eventually remove Jellicent so Sandslash could clean. It's definitely good and much more potent than it was before.

:tangela: :regirock:
These two have similar reasons for dropping. With Drampa becoming a top 5 mon, most things that let it in with little drawback are not popular, as shown by their low usages. They both are also dealt with by a majority of the top tiers, or their niches are outclassed by other mons. Tangela was always reliant on its item to check what it wants to, but now that Tsareena has become popular, it can often find its item removed and its presence diminished. It is also finding competition from Eldegoss as a Grass-type Regenerator mon, as despite lacking Toxic and only having Grass moves, it has Spin and is less reliant on its item for bulk, as well as Aromatherapy to heal off status (it can also live any Zard hit from full in a pinch). This means Tangela is less needed on teams as well as being less effective. As for Regirock, while in theory, it should be able to stop Drampa from coming in via Body Press, in practice it finds itself overwhelmed trying to do a variety of things, from laying Rocks to trying to cripple stuff with status. All of the top tiers can either wear it down or directly threaten it somehow, and having lower special bulk than Gigalith makes it a worse Zard switchin. Regirock has always struggled imo but this is an even less kind meta to it than in the past.

:thwackey:
I nommed a lot of things up and down in the B- and C Rank areas, but I wanted to talk about Thwackey particularly because I have a lot of experience with it. Grassy Surge + a better speed tier than Tsareena does give it a sizeable niche as an offensive Grass-type. Knock/U-turn/Drain or Wood Hammer perfectly round out the Band set, as something like Weezing (the most common Grass resist besides Ferroseed) dies at 50 switching into Wood Hammer, while Ferroseed gets Knocked and U-turned on/Drain Punched on. As a standalone breaker, it's already good, but taking into account its ability to enable Grassy Terrain teams, it becomes much better as shown here, where it was able to enable CM Rest Uxie to simply win. Grassy Terrain teams as a whole are on the rise, and I think that + the potency of Thwackey as a breaker make it worthy of a rise.


When I first nommed Ditto down a while back, I said it was because hyper offense was becoming less common and stall was still niche, but as long as they existed then Ditto had a niche. Now, while hyper offense still exists, many of the most popular ones have ways of Ditto proofing themselves. Grassy Terrain has Unburden sweepers, Trick Room is naturally slow so it can't be outsped by Ditto, the rare Electric Terrain has self immunities, and even just regular offense is seldom seen due to the shift to fatter balances. Ditto has a good matchup against the underrated Webs, but those teams are so uncommon that most of the time, you're better off using another Scarfer. This should mean Ditto can fall back on its stall matchup, but with NGas Weezing being a solid option on stall, hazards being common, and only being able to come in on Audino out of the stall staples, Ditto suffers against stall as well. As a whole, Ditto struggles too much and I can't find myself saying this thing is viable.


Very tired of seeing a mon that does nothing other than have an okay matchup against stall here. The popularity of Gigalith means that you will not be making progress with Shell Smash, as Gigalith can come in and either trade (at best) or outright win (at worse). This could be interesting for baiting in and wearing down Gigalith, but at that point, there are at least 10 Pokemon that can do this better. What's even worse is that at +2, you fail to outspeed Ribombee. This not only means you have to Shell Smash twice to be able to pressure teams with this extremely common mon, but you have to take absolutely no chip in the process or else you die to Moonblast. And this is just considering if it even gets the chance to Shell Smash, as a well-built team often has ways of full stopping Turtonator from making progress. It's outclassed, ineffective, and unviable imo.

Also, I am 100% for ranking Hattrem, very cool and flexible mon. I've used RestTalk on balance and stall and I have been generally impressed with it.

Thanks for reading!
 

Attachments

Specs

Remember where you've been
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
PU Leader
PU VR Nov 2021.png


Ordered in every tier, B- the ordering doesn't super matter but tried my best.

Didn't bother doing C as I actually agree with most of them being there that weren't already moved up

If I somehow missed a super viable mon you can send me your complaints on discord kek, but I did double check

Some talking points I had thought of while ranking:

S:

Tsareena is the most viable mon to me in the tier. It does the most for you in one slot and almost always comes on top in 1v1s that aren't against a faster mon with strong SE dmg

I was skeptical of Scrafty being so high going into doing this but I think it's stupid good defensively and while it isnt the soul reason Fairy types are everywhere (the type itself is just really really good anyways) it does have a big impact on the meta game, they probably wouldn't be on every team if it wasn't a thing

A+:

Zard isn't really S anymore but it's still a top progress maker and gets around things that are supposed to beat it long term. The issue that has hit it is the "long term" part. It doesn't actually safely get in that much to take advantage of its high ceiling. Amazing mon, not S

Gigalith Ferro and Sandaconda could be in any order I just think sand chip is so important with fat being dominant. Not a lot of leftovers going around so it sticks, and even if they do have lefties you're negating recovery. But yeah all 3 of these are amazing

Might be a hot take, Audino is amazing and a big reason fat is working rn. Great glue that doesn't need anything other than the best move in the tier (Knock) to make progress

A:

Toge doesn't really do it for me as much anymore and I think top level play has confirmed this, still a great set of resistances but scarf is super down
even if it does pop up and get a great mu once in awhile and Spdef is outclassed imo.

Am a big Guno activist but you sorta have to build into it. When you do I think its solid, just isn't splashable at all and can almost feel mu fishy at times. Good mon tho

Offensive Jellicent sets carried it up here for me, great breaker that in some situations can struggle to find its way in (preserving Water Spout BP is huge.) Overall abuses some top mons and water resists are hard to come by. Spdef is amazing against Drampa too

A-:

Rotom is super good and had it not been for Audinos rise in popularity I think it might even be higher(?) Tricky mon to switch into in some match ups and it fits great on volt turn. Wisp is annoying to switch into as well

B+:

Centi is incredible. I think it is a very high risk high reward mon. Getting turns right is everything, and not getting knocked. If you can do those 2 things it'll break like no other mon (if Drampa gets banned kek) I'm holding back my huge bias to not put it in A-, but please try this mon out if you haven't.

Gallade has found its way into the meta. Extremely tough to switch into middling speed breaker. Limited defensive value but it rewards outplaying in a very big way.

Scyther in my experience creates a lot of vortexes that can be hard to get out of. It makes progress with knock too on middle grounds. Just don't get knocked yourself. If it didn't have big 4MSS could probably eventually see it move up.

B:

Both Alolan and Kanto Sandslash are pretty good. Kanto is a really solid Sand Breaker that is tricky to get around in the late game, and can potentially break cores if your opponent isn't careful. Alolan has a good set of resistances (most notably Fairy) and solid utility

Kabutops is rarely able to set up vs anything other than Charizard, if it was able to it would be higher. Even with its inability to do so, it's quite scary if you don't have like Ferroseed (they don't run super very often.) I think scarf isn't that great, SD LO is where it's at

Galvantula is legit annoying to face. Please don't take ladder games as a testament to how it actually performs. It's a decent breaker with a good speed tier, esp with Archeops falling off a bit. You annoy common electric answers pretty well

B-:

I don't have too much to say about this tier other than there are a ton of Mid speed breakers here that can be tough to switch into but either don't get in or aren't rewarded heavily enough for doing so.

Some mons to try out here if you haven't would be: Throh, Magneton, Miltank, Sawk.

Oh and I lost the Hattrem sprite somewhere in the thousands of mons on Tiermaker so you're stuck with looking at a Hatenna, its cute though so no complaints
 

SOMALIA

The Spartan Mayor
is a Tiering Contributor
Archeops has fallen off sadly; yes it has insane offensive stats however it's in that weird place where its speed stat is good but not "IMPRESSIVE" and its offensive stats are great but wallbreaking capabilities are medicore at best. You usually tend to break anything thanks to lucky crits if anything. I strongly feel it should not be in the same rank as absolute demons such as Articuno G and Togedemaru.

The real Pokemon I just want to talk about that I wasnt exactly sold on Togedemaru until I actually tried it and boy does is impress. The choice scarf set is an amazing RK of the nasty Fairyvally and acts as a soft check to common pivoting moves. Helps that it always improves your matchup vs Electric Terrain. However, that isn't what got me hooked. The Choice band set is a *£@$% nuke:

1) great speed tier for the Pokemon that it threatens and dispatches; Gallade, Slightly weakened Tsarnee, Galar Cuno, Silvally
2) Ability really lets you regain momentum even after misplaying a turn or two which is huge if using this on what I presume to be an offensive team.
3) Ability to Pivot


This isnt something that just looks good on paper and then dissapoints, I urge you all to try it and I promise it will deliver results real easy. For instance, all you have to do is knock off Weezing and have hazards down and that prior damage + 12% puts it p much in 2hko range which is just stupid lol.


252 Atk Choice Band Togedemaru Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Weezing: 105-124 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Doesn't seem much but anyone who's played PU knows how easy it is to chip Weezing and deny it to get much back via Pain Split. Heck I have legit taken out Weezing 1 v1 with a burnt Band Toge just because they usually dont carry a move to hurt you and as you lose health you end up killing them or better yet just get them in range where your next Pokemon can just come in ie. Silvally Ghost, and then just sub and win lol. Goddamn this Pokemon is just the goat...sorry for being way too passionate about this but its just amazing lmao. I like using Encoere as my 4th move to block last fat mon attempts to sweep and it works a treat :)
 
Hi! A nom for my recent obsession:

> B

Flapple @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Grav Apple
- Draco Meteor
- Sucker Punch
- Outrage / U-turn

This is a really potent breaker that actually carries significant utility vs offense. You get in on something like Sandaconda, Lanturn, Jelli clicking something that isn't wisp etc. and click Grav Apple. Then do as follows!

If they switch in a faster grass resist:
The defense drop means that every faster grass resist drops to a follow up Sucker Punch that isn't fast Tsareena (getting rarer and rarer nowadays) - Zard, Toge, Bee, Whims, Scyther, Articuno, Centiskorch will all drop to this combination. This is the point where you have to predict, but you've already made some progress at the very least because LO Grav is doing like 75% to a Ribombee or 50% to a Tsareena.

If they switch in a slower grass resist:
Levitate Weezing is guaranteed to drop to a Grav Apple and Draco Meteor combination. Neutralizing Gas Weezing needs either rocks or sand chip for it to be guaranteed. Tangela will drop to the same combination. Drud of course dies to Draco Meteor. Sap Sipper
Ferroseed is trickier - Outrage will 2hko even max phys def sets after a Grav Apple drop, but the recoil + gyro ball damage will leave you almost dead, so use with caution. U-turn is handy here as grav into u-turn does like 50% minimum. Sap Sipper Miltank is 2hko'd by outrage but again, Outrage is a pretty suicidal move so use with caution.

If they switch in a non-resist
Any offensive mon will be dead or in range of Sucker Punch. Anything slower will be 2hko'd - even max phys def Aggron can drop to two Grav Apples. If you see a pesky phys def Avalugg it's gonna die to a Draco.

I feel like this set works to Flapple's strengths better than most other sets. Missing once or twice is less significant on a set like this that comes in a few times a match to punch holes than on sweeping DD sets. The immediate power of adamant and Life Orb means it scares mons like Gigalith and Sandaconda out more effectively with the threat of being 1hko'd. Outrage is an absolutely absurd nuke and threatens neutral fatmons like Scrafty, Audino and Articuno with outright 1hkos. Sucker Punch has utility even without Grav drops, having a 50% chance to drop Silv Ghost from full, chunking scarf Toge for like 70, doing the same to Archeops and bringing it into defeatist range and outright killing Articuno-Galar. And Draco Meteor gives you something to click to worry less about missing!


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1448917067 - Once Ferro goes Flapple has complete free reign on a team of fat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1441670691 - Even with a bunch of really unfortunate misses Flapple tears up a team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1457396676-vv0h5ivghfov7gdvnjm1dijewxevhnspw - Nothing super out there but nabs a kill on a Zard and Sandaconda.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1454409861-30ifz4daz1eylrxcz5b2si3wo79gdcopw - Breaks through a core of Stunfisk-G and Weezing
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1457497780 - Breaks a Weezing and cleans up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1453476321-n5xgnusz1i8d5l66kg106p1awhuowpxpw - Kills 4/6 mons vs a standard balance squad


In short, super strong breaker with good utility vs offense and meta changes have been favourable to it - no pass to absorb sucker punches, no silv steel to eat up hits and no Drampa means less dragon nuke competition. It's held back by missing, a lack of longevity with Life Orb use and general vulnerability to passive damage, but still a very solid choice imo that deserves to move up.
 
1637608717826.png
C -> A-
Perrserker has a nice 110 Attack Stat and the Tough Claw Ability which makes it's physical moves even stronger, it's physically bulky and has a nice moveset with coverage moves such as Seed Bomb and Close Combat, it does struggle with Weezing which threatens it with Will-O-Wisp.
 

Specs

Remember where you've been
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
PU Leader
View attachment 387055C -> A-
Perrserker has a nice 110 Attack Stat and the Tough Claw Ability which makes it's physical moves even stronger, it's physically bulky and has a nice moveset with coverage moves such as Seed Bomb and Close Combat, it does struggle with Weezing which threatens it with Will-O-Wisp.
Hi! I agree that Perrserker should move up. The explanation given is very surface level though. Why do you think it does so well? Does it match up well vs the tier or is it just because of base 110 Attack + Tough Claws? Would love to hear more

Biggest thing to me is the Stall/ very fat mu with the Sub SD set. Vs anything else it can be tough to get the sub down but in match ups where it can consistently its genuinely one of the scariest pokemon in the tier. Its BO mu isn't the worst ever, though it struggles to get going with both Sub and SD usually only getting one or two turns before being forced out. I think it deserves to move up for sure
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top