Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

-> B+

its just not that consistent and should deserve the drop to B+... in some matches it can be good, some matches it can flop easily as it has very very little entry points besides skarmory, primarina, and celesteela, and while it can be good in some matches it just doesn't feel as consistent and should warrant the drop to B+.


-> B+

Def underated asf and can easily win games on the spot esp if they dont have a phazer and if so it can still go last mon scenario and just sweep. It is good as a rocker and just a general steel type that can switch into pokemon several times per game such as jirachi, tang, amoonguss, bulky mence, slowking, and possibly some more and aquire boosts to potentially win the game on the spot. With one less ghost in the tier it means that most teams dont have an immunity to body press and is much harder to stall out to


-> C

this pokemon doesn't see usage at all...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-637472 here it just died and didnt accomplish others waters couldnt and esp against an offensive team it was under to much pressure to get anything going

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-639517 here it also flopped and struggled to get anything going

grasses are a pain in the ass for it and it has great competition from other waters such as primarina, cm keldeo, and cm slowking who can just do its job better and who are more consistent on a game to game basis. Unlike suicune who will pull a good matchup but then also have 10 matches where it does jack shit
 
:zarude: A+ --> A

I haven't been fitting this mon onto teams like I used to in aegislash meta, and besides losing one of the main pokemon it used to check, a number of other trends are hurting right now. Crobat, which has seen a huge rise in tournaments, loves to steal momentum from the monkey, and S rank scizor is running bulky sets pretty much exclusively. Cobalion is better than ever. I don't see zarude as significantly better than any of the other pokemon in A, like keldeo, tang, or skarm, and I don't think it should be above them. Zarude certainly still has relevance with its increasingly popular band set, which lets it punish some of the dark neutral mons that like to come in on it, but by nature of the item, that set is much more exploitable than its traditional boots set.
 

Lily

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Update time:

Rises:
:hippowdon: Hippowdon: S- —> S
:cobalion: Cobalion: A+ —> S-
:keldeo: Keldeo: A —> A+
:diggersby: Diggersby: A —> A+
:tangrowth: Tangrowth: A —> A+
:rotom-wash: Rotom-W: A- —> A
:conkeldurr: Conkeldurr: B+ —> A-
:slowbro-galar: Galarian Slowbro: B+ —> A-
:gyarados: Gyarados: B+ —> A-
:crobat: Crobat: B+ —> A
:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt: C+ —> B-
:suicune: Suicune: C+ —> B-
:jellicent: Jellicent: C —> C+
:politoed: :mantine: :kingdra: :heliolisk: Rain: UR —> C+

Drops:
:scizor: Scizor: S —> S-
:zarude: Zarude: A+ —> A
:thundurus-therian: Thundurus-T: A+ —> A
:excadrill: Excadrill: A —> A-
:zygarde-10: Zygarde-10%: A —> A-
:moltres: Moltres: A- —> B+
:mandibuzz: Mandibuzz: A- —> B+
:tentacruel: Tentacruel: A- —> B+
:swampert: Swampert: A- —> B+
:azumarill: Azumarill: B+ —> B
:nidoking: Nidoking: B+ —> B
:cloyster: Cloyster: B —> B-
:entei: Entei: B —> B-
:reuniclus: Reuniclus: B —> B-
:tapu bulu: Tapu Bulu: B —> B-
:rhyperior: Rhyperior: B —> B-
:inteleon: Inteleon: C+ —> C
:marowak-alola: Marowak-Alola: C+ —> C
:porygon2: Porygon2: C+ —> C
:regidrago: Regidrago: C —> UR

I don't really have time to explain all of these right now so I'll take any questions you may have and answer them. Feel free to inquire about whatever's confusing!
 

pokemonisfun

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how come krookodile wasn't one of the pokemon to drop to B-?
I speak for myself only, I like Krook because of it's Taunt sets can put a lot more offensive pressure on the opponent than Hippo can. Overall worse mon, but it has that going for it alongside obvious things (more speed, Knock Off, Intimidate). But yes, I like the Taunt SR set.

Hopefully others can chime in.
 

Estarossa

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Voted to drop it personally but another thing it definitely has going for it atm that pif only touched on tangentially is it is really good at knocking helmets since all it’s best switch-ins tend to run them, so even though it is a fairly niche mon to me and has no real offensive presence after a knock (compared to hippo having sand, decent power eq still, toxic etc) it pairs pretty well with some options like subtox rachi or anything that hates helmets (honestly I kinda like toxic 4th more than taunt cause of this but yea)
 

Monky25

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why the crobat rise to A?
yeah, crobat doesn't seem like it's as good as the other pokemon in A
Crobat has emerged as one of the most reliable speed control and offensive pivot options in the tier. Our speed control kinda sucks right now with only 2 good Choice Scarf users in Hydreigon and Diggersby, so Crobat's high speed letting it beat out the likes of Azelf, Zydog, Noivern, and even +1 Adamant Gyarados is very valuable to many teams. Moreover, Flying-resists are quite limited in UU, with our most common steels being Scizor and Cobalion, which are taking neutral damage from Brave Bird, so Crobat has solid offensive potency right now. Out of the most common Flying resists; being Nihilego, Celesteela, Thundurus-T, and Rotom-W, Nihilego and Thundurus take decent chunks from Brave Bird to keep them from being reliable checks, while Rotom-W gets worn down between rocks and U-turn. Taunt is very good right now at disrupting defensive Pokémon like Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Salamence, giving Crobat a great matchup vs more bulkier builds and a great teammate to bring in Pokémon like Tangrowth who enjoy avoiding Toxic from Hippowdon. It’s currently #12 in usage in UUSD, beating out many Pokémon in the same rank as it and above it like Celesteela, Keldeo, Slowking, and Zarude. For these reasons, Crobat has shot up all the way to A to reflect its dominance in the current metagame.

Why did pert drop?
One word: Hippowdon.

While they do fulfill different roles, with Swampert being a bulky pivot on offensive VoltTurn teams and Hippowdon just being a fat wall on bulky offense and balance, you can't deny they do compete for a team slot a large amount of the time. Hippowdon's main selling point is Slack Off, which lets it check foes like Salamence, Zygarde-10%, and Cobalion throughout a game, as opposed to Swampert who will eventually get worn down and unable to fulfill this role. Hippowdon's 2x weakness to Grass also lets it stay in and Toxic Tangrowth as opposed to Swampert where you have to switch out to avoid dying to Power Whip. Like said earlier, Swampert still has its roles on teams that are weaker to Rotom-W and like its pivoting capabilities, but when your main competition is the best Pokemon in the tier (its subjective but its currently the sole S rank so yeah) that manages to overcome your biggest issue in longevity, Swampert shouldn't expect to see the A ranks anytime soon.
 

dingbat

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I wonder, why hasn't Lycanroc-Dusk dropped? To B- and why hasn't celasteela risen to S
as one of the people to nom it down to b-, i have to concede that it's still one of the more difficult threats to switch into; for example, sciz risks dying if it switches into a cc and tries to predict a switch out with roost only to catch another cc to the head, and hippo is no longer a safe switch-in after some amount of chip damage, depending on how much physical defense investment it decides to run. while it's still hit/miss with its effectiveness and has difficulties fitting on teams, it's still a threat that packs in a lot of power with a great speed tier to boot.

for steela, it's definitely a top 5 mon in my eyes that has once again become a huge menace in a lot of matchups, but i can see a good amount of players believing that it's very slightly less consistent at its roles compared to those of sciz/cobalion.
 

Moutemoute

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View attachment 446459 Also how is Mantine in particular a rain mon out of curiosity?
Mantine has been used as a Rain Sweeper thanks to its Flying-type which allows it to abuse of its STAB Hurricane which melts Grass-types which are used to check Water moves from most rain abusers. Some sets have seen some usages alongside Substitute and Leftovers which allows Mantine to pressure with more ease teams that lack Chansey or fat special sponge.

Overall Mantine typing and movepool is what offers it a niche in rain teams even tho its offenses kinda suck.
 
Mantine has been used as a Rain Sweeper thanks to its Flying-type which allows it to abuse of its STAB Hurricane which melts Grass-types which are used to check Water moves from most rain abusers. Some sets have seen some usages alongside Substitute and Leftovers which allows Mantine to pressure with more ease teams that lack Chansey or fat special sponge.

Overall Mantine typing and movepool is what offers it a niche in rain teams even tho its offenses kinda suck.
Ah I understand that makes sense cheers
 
Crobat has emerged as one of the most reliable speed control and offensive pivot options in the tier. Our speed control kinda sucks right now with only 2 good Choice Scarf users in Hydreigon and Diggersby, so Crobat's high speed letting it beat out the likes of Azelf, Zydog, Noivern, and even +1 Adamant Gyarados is very valuable to many teams. Moreover, Flying-resists are quite limited in UU, with our most common steels being Scizor and Cobalion, which are taking neutral damage from Brave Bird, so Crobat has solid offensive potency right now. Out of the most common Flying resists; being Nihilego, Celesteela, Thundurus-T, and Rotom-W, Nihilego and Thundurus take decent chunks from Brave Bird to keep them from being reliable checks, while Rotom-W gets worn down between rocks and U-turn. Taunt is very good right now at disrupting defensive Pokémon like Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Salamence, giving Crobat a great matchup vs more bulkier builds and a great teammate to bring in Pokémon like Tangrowth who enjoy avoiding Toxic from Hippowdon. It’s currently #12 in usage in UUSD, beating out many Pokémon in the same rank as it and above it like Celesteela, Keldeo, Slowking, and Zarude. For these reasons, Crobat has shot up all the way to A to reflect its dominance in the current metagame.


One word: Hippowdon.

While they do fulfill different roles, with Swampert being a bulky pivot on offensive VoltTurn teams and Hippowdon just being a fat wall on bulky offense and balance, you can't deny they do compete for a team slot a large amount of the time. Hippowdon's main selling point is Slack Off, which lets it check foes like Salamence, Zygarde-10%, and Cobalion throughout a game, as opposed to Swampert who will eventually get worn down and unable to fulfill this role. Hippowdon's 2x weakness to Grass also lets it stay in and Toxic Tangrowth as opposed to Swampert where you have to switch out to avoid dying to Power Whip. Like said earlier, Swampert still has its roles on teams that are weaker to Rotom-W and like its pivoting capabilities, but when your main competition is the best Pokemon in the tier (its subjective but its currently the sole S rank so yeah) that manages to overcome your biggest issue in longevity, Swampert shouldn't expect to see the A ranks anytime soon.
Yeah I guess that makes sense
 
Mantine has been used as a Rain Sweeper thanks to its Flying-type which allows it to abuse of its STAB Hurricane which melts Grass-types which are used to check Water moves from most rain abusers. Some sets have seen some usages alongside Substitute and Leftovers which allows Mantine to pressure with more ease teams that lack Chansey or fat special sponge.

Overall Mantine typing and movepool is what offers it a niche in rain teams even tho its offenses kinda suck.
This seems Overly Reductive. Surely Mantine is better used as a Tanking Pokemon, no?
 

pokemonisfun

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This seems Overly Reductive. Surely Mantine is better used as a Tanking Pokemon, no?
Speaking only for myself, I will add on to Sulo and Moute’s point and say that defensive Defog Mantine is not meta but at least not an unreasonably poor set. It does very reliably Defog against standard ID Body Press Skarmory and with Haze it can beat many slow boosters than break fat mons like CM non Thunder Reuniclus, CM Hatt and CM Rest Primarina.

However, it has a poor MU vs Hippowdon type notwithstanding as it’s Toxic weak and many of the Haze targets are also beaten by Quagsire which is very reliable and common on defensive teams. Beating Keldeo is nice but you don’t even beat CM Leftovers Air Slash Keldeo which is favored to flinch you to death or waste all Roosts and you don’t have sufficient room for Toxic.

Defensively, Slowking gives you huge competition as Teleport + Regen is more important than Haze/subpar Defog for so many teams.
 
Was Inteleon just ranked too high earlier or did more stuff come to weaken its small niche?

Also is Cloyster worse than it was before or is it in B- now because B- was removed from the VR at that point in time?
 
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Monky25

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Was Inteleon just ranked too high earlier or did more stuff come to weaken its small niche?

Also is Cloyster worse than it was before or is it in B- now because B- was removed from the VR at that point in time?
Note that this is just my opinion and not reflective of the entire VR team's.

Inteleon's main niche was a Water-type wallbreaker that outspeeds Azelf and Zygarde-10% while still hitting fairly hard, but that role has become less useful over time. Other common wallbreakers like Keldeo and Primarina hit a bit harder than Inteleon and have far more defensive utility as well, which can help glue teams together compared to Inteleon's inability to take a hit. Moreover, we have seen better Speed control options like Crobat, Noivern, Choice Scarf Hydreigon, and Choice Scarf Diggersby becoming mainstream, thus leading players to often take up 2 slots of a team like Primarina + Diggersby rather than one and have greater potency still because of their other factors like typings and moves. It almost went straight to UR even. Inteleon is strong, but not that strong, and fast, but not that fast as it still gets beaten out by common speed control options, therefore warranting a drop.

I'd say it probably is a bit of both, as Cloyster got voted into B- but bumped up to B as we removed B-, but now I would say the drop is fairly warranted. Hyper Offense is just in an alright spot in the metagame and Cloyster's niche of abusing Zygarde-10% has become a lot less prevalent as Zygarde has been declining. It doesn't get too many setup opportunities with its bad Special Defense and common Pokemon like Keldeo and Rotom-W easily take on boosted sets. It's just a bit less useful than before, so a small drop to B- was fair to have.
 
Sun(
1661976881197.png
1661976911336.png
1661976927712.png
)C+ to B-/B


Not sure why the sun core is so low, venusaur is great for breaking through many pokemon such as hatterene and having a good defensive typing as well as decent bulk to allow it to set up on opposing grasses and Celesteela is a great thing. Also Venusaur also outspeeds everything under sun and can beat the best defensive mon in the tier in Hippowdon ( 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Hippowdon: 296-351 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) which allows sun to stay up. Darm helps against Chansey as well as providing excellent firepower and a good speed tier when scarfed, notably outspeeding best scarfer Diggersby. Subsequently sun's low ranking seems peculiar to me as it performs better than this rank shows within the meta in my opinion.
 
-> UR

A mon that is good against HO that is exclusive on stall.... but HO has fallen off and stall isnt so desperate needing to use ditto. Ditto as a mon is falwed over all and just playing 5v6 with stall isnt going to make u go anywhere since most mons on stall can answer Ho threats such as chansey for nihi, steela, Thundy-t. Skarmory for salamence, gyarados, scizor, azu, diggersby. Umbreon for azelf, mence, gyara, diggersby. And amoonguss pressures all of them with spore. IDT stall is really that desperate for ditto. It also has seen 0 usage all through UUSD which even tho usage doesn't mean bad it means that ditto is not exactly that valuable for stall to give up a team slot for a dead mon half the time
 

Estarossa

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:bw/lanturn:

Lanturn: UR -> C

Been exploring Lanturn on stall a bit recently, (Lily has also used it in a tour too) and it's got some really cool role compression that imo gives it a niche worth ranking. Heal Bell users are always useful due to the value of freeing up moveslots on Umbreon and Chansey, but alongside this it offers the valuable niche of an extremely reliable volt blocker; it entirely counters the rotom's and has a particularly nice matchup versus thundurus-t too. Float Stone Gastrodon has seen some usage for a similar role too but Lanturn differentiates itself from Gastro through its Heal Bell compression making it easier to fit, + its ability to maintain momentum with Volt Switch, which while not necessary for fat teams definitely has value when it comes to not having to predict switch-ins like Zarude etc. In particular its a pretty nice partner to stall win con/breakers like Jellicent and Slowking that appreciate it clearing off Sludge Psn's from Glowbro etc, and it countering the electrics that can give them trouble.

The set I run:

mio (Lanturn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Heal Bell
- Toxic

Replay demonstrating its value from my r1 swiss series:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1661017797
 
Hopefully for the final time, I am here to argue for Celebi's place on the VR again (i.e. I am nominating it for C rank). But I'm not just here to rehash the same old sets (i.e. the Stealth Rock user, although it is still viable!) - I have two new ones I would like everyone to consider, plus another one I believe has potential:

Thunder Wave
Celebi is among the best Pokemon available for spreading Thunder Wave, mainly because almost nothing immune to Thunder Wave (i.e. Ground-types and Thundurus-Therian) can switch into Celebi safely due to its powerful STAB Psychic- and Grass-type moves. The exception to this is :zarude:, who is not immune to Thunder Wave, but easily shrugs it off with Jungle Healing and threatens Celebi out. This makes a Rocky Helmet user or bulky Steel-type a necessary partner for Celebi to function, as these are able to switch into U-Turns for Celebi. Fortunately, :skarmory: and :cobalion: are two of the best Pokemon in the tier and do this job excellently while also appreciating Celebi soaking up Ground-, Electric-, and Water-type attacks for them. Once an opposing team is slowed down with paralysis, there are several abusers that can capitalize, but perhaps no Pokemon is scarier to take a hit from than :marowak-alola:, which happens to have great synergy with Celebi type-wise and can easily be brought in on the common :skarmory:, especially with U-Turn support. I elected to do exactly that on the paraspam team I built with Celebi:
:ss/celebi: :ss/marowak-alola: :ss/skarmory: :ss/slowking: :ss/diggersby: :ss/celesteela:

Replays

Light Screen
Celebi also makes an excellent user of Light Screen. In this case, Light Screen patches up Celebi's defensive profile and allows its offensive teammates to stay in on hits that would normally force them out. In particular, I found that Swords Dance :cobalion: makes a great recipient of Light Screen, allowing it to tank hits like :salamence:'s Flamethrower and :thundurus-therian:'s Focus Blast to set up a Swords Dance and begin to sweep. Other Pokemon that are mainly forced out by special attacks could benefit from Light Screen, too. These might include: :celesteela:, :conkeldurr: ,:crawdaunt:, :gyarados:, :keldeo:, :mamoswine:, :moltres:, and :diggersby:. The team I used for this went through a few variations, so I'll provide both:
:ss/celebi: :ss/cobalion: :ss/celesteela: :ss/chandelure: :ss/diggersby: :ss/swampert:
(weaker to hazard stacking and Hydreigon)

:ss/celebi: :ss/cobalion: :ss/togekiss: :ss/chandelure: :ss/diggersby: :ss/swampert:
(weaker to Mamoswine)​

Replays
Other Sets?
In a similar vein to Light Screen, I believe Reflect also has potential as a great last move for Celebi. Many dangerous offensive Pokemon fear strong physical hits, and Reflect grants them extra turns to set up or dish out attacks, enabling them to take out Pokemon they would not normally be able to. In particular, :azelf: appreciates Reflect support greatly, allowing it to stay in on Knock Offs and U-Turns that would normally force it out in order to set up a Nasty Plot or simply attack. Some other Pokemon that might benefit from Reflect support (due to their weaknesses/checks being primarily [to] physical attackers) include :togekiss: ,:hatterene:, :tentacruel:, :slowbro-galar:, :thundurus-therian:, :chandelure:, :moltres:, :primarina:, :nihilego:, and :hydreigon:but this is theory at this point. Making a functional team with Reflect Celebi has proven more difficult than making one with Light Screen (partially due to the overlap in weaknesses between Celebi and Pokemon that benefit from Reflect), but I plan to keep working at it.

Other Replays
These replays don't focus on the sets I mentioned above (though they do use some of the same teams), but reiterate Celebi's value as a member of a team. I feel it's important to include these since it tends to be forgotten just how valuable a team member Celebi can be and how many Pokemon it actually has a great matchup against.
 

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