Resource SS UU Viability Ranking Thread (Pre-DLC)

[Gross Sweep]

So with DLC drops coming to UU in about 18 days I feel like there is time for one more update to get the VR as good as it can possibly be before the meta undergoes a drastic shift. These are a handful of nominations I feel fairly strongly about, that I'd like to discuss before the DLC.

Incineroar has been one of the top Pokemon in the metagame for a while now, and even with recent drops like Keldeo in the tier it still continues to thrive. Thanks to Heavy Duty Boots it serves as the premiere pivot in the tier. As the combination of Knock Off + Parting Shot / U-turn allow it to always be helpful. Regardless of what else you’re running in those 2 other slots, Incineraor will pull its weight in pretty much any matchup. Incineroar is also really nice in the current metagame as it’s one of the few viable Dark-types (and the most splashable one by far), which allows it to help vs strong psychic types like Reuniclus and Necrozma (depending on the sets) and helps check the Teapot who can be very threatening after a Shell Smash. Aside from being a solid pivot Incineraor has shown great flexibility running more offensive sets utilizing Swords Dance to help break down opposing teams. Overall Incineraor is an incredibly spashable mon that will find a way to make progress in basically every game it’s a part of, which is all you can really ask from a Pokemon.

Edit: lol I forgot to actually mention that Incin should rise to S, but I'm sure you all got that.

Gardevoir should drop. Gardevoir being A ranked seems like a relic from when Venusaur was terrorizing the tier, and it was one of the few methods of revenge killing the tier had. I had some hopes it would climb back to prominence when Pelipper dropped down, but Drizzle was quickly banned and here we are. At a point in time when Sylveon just outclasses Gardevoir in a lot of scenarios I just can’t support Garde being A ranked any longer. It’s still a decent mon with Scarf, but with mons like Darmanitan and Rillaboom being faster scarfers that Garde has to compete with it is tough. The combination of weather losing relevance in the tier, Sylveon being better at so many roles, and the rise of solid opposing scarfers has me losing faith in Gardevoir. A drop to A- or B+ feels like the right move to make.

The idea that Copperajah needs a rise is not new, but it’s important enough that I want to take a second to echo the notion. Copperajah is a force that I find myself loving more and more. It provides solid role compression of a bulky steel + Rocks. It also sets itself apart from others like Bronzong by providing a serious offensive presence. That said I do tend to find myself struggling with 4mss a bit as I want to fit Stealth Rock / Heavy Slam / Earthquake / Power Whip / and Heat Crash, which is just not doable. Copperajah is also excellent as it’s one of the better Roserade switch ins the tier has taking basically nothing from its STABs, while getting up Rocks vs it pretty easily. Also if you manage to fit Stealth Rock on another slot Copperajah is able to alleviate itself of its 4mss and run an Assault Vest. Which allows it to be more of a threat offensively with great coverage, and switch into fairies even better. I think Copperajah is going to continue to strive going forward and definitely deserves to rise, in my opinion, from B to A- or B+ at the very least.

Ninetales is B+ ??? This feels like another relic from the days sun dominated the UU tier. As Chlorophyll abusers like Leafeon and Shiftry have failed to fill the giant shoes left behind by Venusaur, Ninetales has also fallen off. While it still possesses a solid speed tier and strong set up with Nasty Plot, it just doesn’t feel like a standalone B+ Pokemon. I think Ninetales needs a rank that more directly reflects Sun in the current UU meta, to me a rank of B- or C+ feels more appropriate. C+ would make it equal with its Drought counterpart Torkoal, but I see Ninetales as bit more viable and would settle happily with a rank of B-

Gigalith should drop. Times have been hard on Gigalith. Having the ability to reset weather with Sand and use the Spdef boost to help take on special attackers like Sylveon and Noivern made it great. That said as opposing weathers have died down, and Volt Switch has grown more popular it has been tough for Gigalith to find a spot on teams. It’s almost not a matter of Gigalith doing anything wrong, but other mons have really started to separate themselves by handling common issues better. Be it Grounds like Rhyperior stopping Volt Switch, or Steels like Escavalier and Copperajah rising in usage to check fairies. It just feels like Gigalith is never the best option for a team and it’s not worth actually using. I’m not exactly sure where it should end up, but A is definitely too high for where it is currently.

Pangoro should be a rank above Machamp. The nuclear Knock Off that Pangoro provides really makes it stick out, and the Dark typing allowing it to greatly help vs threats like Necrozma and Reuniclus can’t be understated. Pangoro also provides teams with a ghost resist that can help keep Chandy from spamming Shadow Ball. While there are definitely some team compositions that make it worth running Machamp, like if you are trying to avoid stacking Dark-types and want to run Incineraor. At the end of the day though I feel Pangoro outclasses Machamp to the point them being in the same rank feels wrong as they compete with each other for team slots so closely. I personally want to See Pangoro rise to A, but I would also accept Machamp dropping down a rank if the VR council feels A is too much for Pangoro right now. The current rankings just seem inaccurate with these two in the same tier.

I would like to see Gastrodon in B+. Gastrodon is a really cool choice in the current meta, as it is one of the best anti VoltTurn mons in the meta. As it can easily switch into Rotom-W without a lot of fear, unlike a lot of other Ground types. The best spread that I’ve played with personally right now is Max Defense which helps you deal with Keldeo and Darmanitan who are two of the more prominent threats in the current meta. Overall I feel like Gastrodon is a strong pick in the current metagame that helps keep a lot of threats running around in check. It definitely isn’t a world beater, but deserves a rise to B+ in my eyes. (Also VR should use East Gastrodon regardless)

I will keep this very simple. Flygon is not A- material. While I will always stand by a faster scarfer, in terms of the meta, with a ground typing and U-turn. Flygon just does not measure up. This thing never hits hard enough. I often find myself clicking Dragon Claw with this Pokemon to revenge kill, and am often left unimpressed as this thing hits like a wet noodle. Outside of providing speed control and a pair of immunities Flygon is just bad. If you need some role compression in your 6th slot, Flygon could be worth a look. That said, this is a Pokémon that I actively try to avoid needing its role compression to complete my teams, as I honestly feel it is underwhelming in the roles it provides. At the minimum I’d like to nom Flygon to B+ and I would support a lower ranking. Also with Haxorus being banned Flygon lost a major niche it had, which was revenge killing +1 Haxorus. Haxorus warped the meta so much that it made Flygon usable, and its ban has quickly sunk Flygon. Also it’s probably worth mentioning that some defog Flygon sets are usable, but they are by no means A- rank sets.

 

[Bad feeling]

Rilaboom to A-

Rilaboom hits hard enough to jiggle your brain when you see damage output. I don't think Scarf Rilaboom is brilliant. Flygon and Gardevoir are better in their respective role. Flygon to scout and Gardevoir to clean a game. Moreover, it's a huge "mistake" to play Rilboom without a choice band.

Few Pokemon tanks a wood hammer boosted by grassy purge. I invite you to see adamant Rilaboom's damages. Umbreon is OHKO. Cobalion is 2-3HKO ( 50.3 - 59.2%). Weezing-G defensive is 3HKO (38.6 - 45.8%). Noivern is 3HKO (39.2 - 46.3%) , so he can't roost. Bronzong is 2HKO (52.6 - 62.1%). Copperajah is 2HKO (64.4 - 75.9%).

Jolly wood hammer's Rilaboom OHKO Toxtricity and Chandelure with SR. Even Necrozema DD is OHKO.

For our pleasure, the wood hammer's recoil is compensated by grassy terrain. We have a Pokemon with a low-risk high reward move, a good speed to revenge kill most of wallbreakers like Necrozema or Pangora, an "ok" bulk to check Rhyperior and Keldeo and supporting options in U-turn and Knock Off.

Pure Grass is not good, nor bad in UU. It's even a better typing since Haxorus is banned and Keldeo drops here. Many Pokemon like Jellicent, Gastrodon, Milotic, or Mantine rise in usage. The metagame trends to be favorable for Rilaboom.

In my opinion, Rilaboom's rank is near to be A. He is a little better than Pangoroo with higher speed and bulk but it's too early to rank Rilaboom higher.

 

[Chandell]

" Gardevoir should drop. Gardevoir being A ranked seems like a relic from when Venusaur was terrorizing the tier, and it was one of the few methods of revenge killing the tier had. I had some hopes it would climb back to prominence when Pelipper dropped down, but Drizzle was quickly banned and here we are. At a point in time when Sylveon just outclasses Gardevoir in a lot of scenarios I just can’t support Garde being A ranked any longer. It’s still a decent mon with Scarf, but with mons like Darmanitan and Rillaboom being faster scarfers that Garde has to compete with it is tough. The combination of weather losing relevance in the tier, Sylveon being better at so many roles, and the rise of solid opposing scarfers has me losing faith in Gardevoir. A drop to A- or B+ feels like the right move to make. "
Maybe the problem is you're focusing too much on scarf and not on the real deal which is specs. Specs Gardevoir has zero switchins, the only things which can come in have to guess what Garde is going to do. Sylveon is so much easier to counter, it has significantly lower speed and much poorer coverage. While technically Sylveon shares coverage type wise with Gardevoir through hyper voice/mystical fire/shadow ball/psyshock, Gardevoir has a really hard hitting STAB psyshock which tears through special walls such as Mantine and Snorlax, and fire types such as Arcanine and Centiskorch. When one looks at UU mons alone they may not notice the gap in offensive prowess between Gardevoir and Sylveon, but after taking all the other tiers into account the big picture becomes clear. One may ask why a player would choose from lower tier pokemon to form their team, but a good player uses all the tools in their arsenal. Just as Runerigus, Goodra, Snorlax and Toxicroak are considered on UU teams for various valid reasons, so are a splurge of potential Sylveon counters which Gardevoir destroys. NFE super-walls such as Type;Null are destroyed either through trick or focus blast by Gardevoir, wall Sylveon all day and night since it lacks both of these. Now although you may not come across mons like this that often, given the ban of haxorus there is the potential for a slight rise in stall. Even if you don't look outside UU, Gardevoir has access to coverage such as focus blast to blow would be checks away such as Gigalith, and its speed means it's harder to force out. Long story short, Gardevoir is in no way outcompeted by Sylveon as an offensive pokemon, and I don't think it should drop.

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

I will keep this very simple. Flygon is not A- material. While I will always stand by a faster scarfer, in terms of the meta, with a ground typing and U-turn. Flygon just does not measure up. This thing never hits hard enough. I often find myself clicking Dragon Claw with this Pokemon to revenge kill, and am often left unimpressed as this thing hits like a wet noodle. Outside of providing speed control and a pair of immunities Flygon is just bad. If you need some role compression in your 6th slot, Flygon could be worth a look. That said, this is a Pokémon that I actively try to avoid needing its role compression to complete my teams, as I honestly feel it is underwhelming in the roles it provides. At the minimum I’d like to nom Flygon to B+ and I would support a lower ranking. Also with Haxorus being banned Flygon lost a major niche it had, which was revenge killing +1 Haxorus. Haxorus warped the meta so much that it made Flygon usable, and its ban has quickly sunk Flygon. Also it’s probably worth mentioning that some defog Flygon sets are usable, but they are by no means A- rank sets.

I'd like to echo this cuz dear god Flygon has really fallen off with Haxorus being gone. I still think that Flygon is atleast B+ material, since ground stab + U-turn + 100 in both attack stats are pretty good qualities, but overall it's just not strong enough, although saying that it hits like a wet noodle is a bit of an over exaggeration, since it still revenge kills most of the things it needs to.

I do think that, with Haxorus gone, Flygon could perhaps experiment with other sets than scarf, like maybe DD or Band (maybe even specs or mixed LO kek), but until such a day comes, I'm 100% for a flygon drop.

 

[DraconicLepus]

I would like to nominate Decidueye to C! (though i could honestly see it ranked higher)

: Unrank --> C

Now, let's first get out some of the big reasons I think Decidueye is worthy of being ranked. One of them being its typing and its base stats. Grass/Ghost is honestly a really valuable typing in UU currently. This typing makes it a great check to Keldeo, either resisting or being immune to its STABs, along with checking Toxtricity. These aren't the only good pokemon it checks but its two big ones in my personal opinion. There are a plethora of grass types it has to compete against such as Roserade and Celebi, but how it differentiates itself is through being a defogger. Below I will provide a sample set and explain why it does well.

Set

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Defog
- Shadow Ball
- Leaf Storm
- U-turn

This is a defog set i've been using that focusing on pivoting and dealing general good damage, while taking the time to check waters. The speed allows it to outspeed modest Specs Sylveon, though could be lowered down to Pangoro if more bulk is wanted. Max Special attack gives it the best chance of doing damage as possible. The rest put into bulk to leave it the best chance of taking hits. Special was chosen over Physical so it could better check scald users such as Milotic, so burn couldn't cripple it. U-turn is essential so pokemon such as Incineroar can't take advantage of Decid. Leaf Storm and Shadow Ball are the attacking moves of choice. Now you may be thinking, why isn't roost in the set? Which leads to one of Decidueye's biggest downsides, 4MSS. It has a very hard time choosing between recovery, defog, stabs, and U-Turn as all of them are important in using it well. It really comes down to what your specific team needs in that case.

Now, not only does it check multiple mons well, it also does very respectable damage. I'll leave a few example calcs below versus mons that may try to switch in. I'll also show some calcs of its bulk, the pokemon it may try to check.

Damage Calcs

252+ SpA Decidueye Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 258-304 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Decidueye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 144-169 (46.3 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Decidueye Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 422-500 (130.6 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Decidueye Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Milotic: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Decidueye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 115-136 (44 - 52.1%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO

Bulk Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye: 134-158 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye: 116-137 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
48 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye: 65-77 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye: 130-154 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Decidueye has a lot of tools to make it successful in the UU meta, especially when being able to be paired with Pangoro, who I would say is one of the best partners to it due to the ability to take advantage of pokemon like Incineroar. While I only mentioned a special set in this post, there's still room for a lot of exploration as it is also able to be run as a physical attacker. If you haven't thought of Decidueye i'd give it a try as I feel it has a lot of potential given the current UU meta.

Now that most of thats out of the way, which is the main nomination I wanted to do I will be just covering some things I agree with in

Other Noms

to S: Agree
Incineroar has, and shall be one of the best pokemon in UU. It's sheer splashability on so many playstyles in the tier and the utility it provides is unmatched. It definitely deserves a raise as it is easily on the same level as Noivern.

to A- (or even B+)
Gigalith has.. really lost it. While it's still a great check to a lot of pokemon such as Noivern and Chandelure, what made it good before and the introduction of Keldeo really just makes it so risky to use. Not to mention sand can be a MAJOR hinderance to many teams due to the damage it does to your own team members if they arent ground/steel.

to ranked: Agree
Sneasel is baby weavile. It is not as fast or strong but its speed tier is still respectable, and the STAB combo Ice/Dark is scary as ever. It was quite a bit ago that this was meant but I agree with it.

to C-
I don't know when the last time i've seen this thing. There's no reason to use it over the dark types we have. Roserade and Weezing are better T-Spikes users, we have a multitude of great knock users in Pangoro and Incineroar. Just.. there's no reason to use this now.

to A+: Agree.
This thing is just good. It has a lot going for it, good bulk, good speed, good STABs, good coverage, good a lot of things. It easily fits with our other mons in A+.

to B+/A-: agree
I've always been a believer in rajah. It's power, bulk, coverage makes it a main to switch into and predict so it easily deserves its positioning up in the elite with some of our other steels.

to C-
Once again, now that it's niche as a sun setter with rocks is gone, it really has fallen. It could still be used on the very niche on the sun playstyle that is workable.. but again not nearly as good as before when sun was such a dominant playstyle.

Thats all for this post.. thanks for reading everyone o/

 

[scorbunnys]

hi bros

A+ to S
I do not know if it is suspect worthy because the metagame has started to get used to it with fantastic counters like AV Copperajah, but not putting it in S is crazy, it is one, no, the best pokemon in the tier, it is versatile as hell and it has a lot of really unexplored things in his movepool like Yawn, so a Yawn / Hyper Voice / Wish / Protect set is very good because Yawn forces the switches to change, so his movepool isn't too bad either, just lacking exploration .
In addition, Sylveon is very easy to fit into any team and literally creates a entire playstyle (i mean, Incineroar + Grass + Keldeo + Sylveon + Steel), which is pretty nice and is pretty flexible.
Finally, I must mention that Sylveon is really centralizing, depending on mons such as AV Copperajah, AV Reuniclus, Gigalith Heavy Slam qne Snorlax, which makes building a little more restricted, because if we talk about other steels, they can eat a Mystical Fire and die as is the case with Escavalier or it is just ohko by Hyper Voice Specs as Cobalion, it is simply tremendous madness that must rise to S.
Despite that has flaws, is easy to revenge kill and mons like Toxtricity can check it, but S fits really well for Sylveon, because Keldeo + Sylveon is a nearly perfect core.

Other changes:

A- to A (Disagree) - It is good, in fact very good, just now with the rise of other steels they just give Escavalier some competition, plus it does not count as well to the most common fairies like Sylveon and Gardevoir, because Escavalier dies from a single Mystical Fire, i just think it's overrated, despite that, A- is fine.

UR to B+ / A- - With the arrival of Keldeo in particular, Ditto improved a bit because he can make Keldeo Specs 1v1 because Ditto Scarf is faster, he also copies many offensive mons and defeats them, although he struggles against Sylveon and Gardevoir, so I suppose B+ is a good rank, I can see it in A-.

A to A+ (Agree) - Celebi is great, she is one of the best Keldeo checks and offers a very valuable amount of utility with her Stealth Rock + U-Turn and Nasty Plot set sets, you can even wear Scarf Trick Celebi, although I personally prefer Espeon for this role, because Espeon Scarf outspeeds Heliolisk Scarf and Keldeo Scarf, even so Celebi lacks counters on her NP set and offers a lot of utility, she could honestly see her in S if not for her limiting weaknesses (she has many weaknesses in her I type), but A undervalues her a lot.

A- to B+ (Agree, i'll go further and drop golisopod to B) - I think he is a good mon, simply with the ban of mamoswine he has lost some of his great niches which was to be a counter of Mamoswine and with the descent of rotom wash, he was simply a bit outclassed as bulky water and even as offensive water, because rotom wash has access to nasty plot and has a better typing in general, sincerely I am going to go further and propose a drop to B, that is not a bad mon, spikes is an interesting and underrated move in my opinion, but still it is not worthy of A-, I think a drop to B would reflect that.

B+ to B (Obviously disagree) - I could see this change before, but now that Keldeo and Pelipper went down, Espeon has one more purpose and that is to be a Keldeo revenge killer, because he can beat Keldeo in speed and he can bounce keldeo toxic (Keldeo uses toxic by defensive walls), which is why I think Espeon is not the best UU, but it should not definitely go down.

B- to B (Agree, but pretty indiferent) - Xatu has increased its use a little and this is due to the emergence of more offensive teams and I suppose that the descent of Keldeo helped a little because Xatu resists Secret Sword and also the flying type is good, Teleport + Dual Screens + TWave is a unique set in HO, as far as I can see Xatu in B, but i am indiferent because Espeon is a superior option because outspeeds Keldeo.

B to A- (Agree) - Copperajah AV is the best Sylveon check rn and with his impressive offensive coverage and Stealth Rock, I can see Copperajah as a really splashable mon, he can also check things like Celebi and Noivern, so he's cool, I think I should go further and take Copperajah to A rank, it is even better than Escavalier because Copperajah walls the fairies better in general and hits hard, I do not understand why if I want to go down to C+, maybe I will suffer a little competition with Bronzong, but they both offer different things, so, rise this thing to A.

A+ to S (Disagree) -
It is excessively overrated, Incineroar is a good mon that offers a lot of utility and it is undoubtedly top 10 in Under Used if it is not top 5, but it has certain problems for which I don't think it should be S, I will list them below.
Lack of reliable recovery: This is definitely a very limiting thing for Incineroar because being forced to wear Heavy Duty Boots cannot carry Leftovers and this means that if you want you can recover a little every turn, so it depends a lot on the team's wishpasser, If they have already weakened your team's wishpasser, Incineroar will no longer have such longevity, it is just waiting for them to wear you out a few times, which is a pity for an S rank.
The counting pokemon usually have a way to stop Incineroar: This is terrible in several cases, because things like Necrozma Earth Power, Celebi NP Earth Power, Sleep Powder Roserade, and High Horsepower Rillaboom (Incineroar can't switch to High Horsepower Rillaboom) .
The arrival of Keldeo: Keldeo destroys Incineroar in all existing ways, Hydro Pump and Secret Sword make him 2HKO if Keldeo does not wear Specs and chooses to use the Scarf and Specs Keldeo makes OHKO Incineroar, he can even wear down Incineroar with Toxic Incineroar has nothing to do vs Keldeo, except use Parting Shot.
I honestly think Incineroar could go back to A rank in the future, but for now A+ is fine.

Rank for Keldeo:

UR to S - I mean, the Drizzle ban might have hurt Keldeo a bit, but it's still great, Specs Keldeo doesn't have switch ins except for Celebi SpDef and is revenge killed by Espeon, Sylveon + Keldeo is without a doubt, the most powerful core of the tier because this core does not have real counters, I think Keldeo should be in S rank, it is the best Under Used with Sylveon and maybe Noivern.

Noms that was explained by another user above and I want to give my support voice, but it was already explained.

UR to C (even B- tho)

UR to A- or B+

A- to B+

UR to C

A to B+

B+ to C+

Bye bros :3

Edit: Thanks Chandell, sims796 and PlusC for helping me correct some points of the post, I really thank you very much

Edit 2: I need to post again.

 

[Chandell]

Pokeseba, the best Sylveon counter in UU is probably Arcanine, it has psuedo-reliable recovery and outspeeds Sylveon. If you'res speaking of Sylveon being difficult to counter why haven't you mentioned Gardevoir, I don't see Sylveon as a problem and I don't think Gardevoir will be one once Galarian-Articuno and Slowking drop. It was nice of you to mention Incineroar being overrated, it has too many flaws to be an S rank pokemon.

 

[sims796]

Hey Pokeseba, I'm not seeing any of your attachments, I have no idea which mons you are talking about except for the final three (Rillaboom, Decidueye and Flygon).

 

[PlusC]

Pokeseba, the best Sylveon counter in UU is probably Arcanine, it has psuedo-reliable recovery and outspeeds Sylveon. If you'res speaking of Sylveon being difficult to counter why haven't you mentioned Gardevoir, I don't see Sylveon as a problem and I don't think Gardevoir will be one once Galarian-Articuno and Slowking drop. It was nice of you to mention Incineroar being overrated, it has too many flaws to be an S rank pokemon.

Don't forget Toxtricity, resists Hyper Voice, plus reduces it further with Punk Rock and depending on the sets they each run either 1 or 2 hits it back. Choice Specs Sludge Wave alwayd OHKOs after Stealth Rock, Sludge Bomb can miss out on that.

The only risk is if it runs Psyshock, but I can't say I've ever actually seen one run it.

 

[Moutemoute]

I firmly believe people who believe Incineroar isn't a S-rank material Pokemon don't play the same tier. Even with Keldeo in the tier, Incineroar is still one of the greatest Pokemon UU has to offer. Incineroar is a natural check to many threats such as Necrozma, Polteageist, Doublade, Reuniclus, Chandelure etc.. and while it has no recovery on its own, it's hellah easy to pair it with some wish support from Pokemon like Sylveon. Incineroar is just amazing in Underused and can run almost any set/spread depending of the team it fits into... It can be offensive SD with 3 attacks, Bulky SD with U-turn, SpD Rest-Talk, Bulky Pivot, Stallbreaker with Taunt, Sweeper under Screens thanks to Flame Charge. I know I'm kinda biased on this Pokemon because I'm using it quite a lot but let's be honest, Incineroar is top 3 Pokemon in UU alongside Noivern and Keldeo.

 

[Revelation]

I firmly believe people who believe Incineroar isn't a S-rank material Pokemon don't play the same tier. Even with Keldeo in the tier, Incineroar is still one of the greatest Pokemon UU has to offer. Incineroar is a natural check to many threats such as Necrozma, Polteageist, Doublade, Reuniclus, Chandelure etc.. and while it has no recovery on its own, it's hellah easy to pair it with some wish support from Pokemon like Sylveon. Incineroar is just amazing in Underused and can run almost any set/spread depending of the team it fits into... It can be offensive SD with 3 attacks, Bulky SD with U-turn, SpD Rest-Talk, Bulky Pivot, Stallbreaker with Taunt, Sweeper under Screens thanks to Flame Charge. I know I'm kinda biased on this Pokemon because I'm using it quite a lot but let's be honest, Incineroar is top 3 Pokemon in UU alongside Noivern and Keldeo.

Wholeheartedly agree here. Incineroar just got Scorching Sands too lmfao.

 

[Morsel]

Hi everyone,

I know I've posted a lot in this thread, but I want to nominate one more thing before the rankings get updated.

Necrozma to A+


Nomination:

I'm sure to many this nomination makes a lot of sense, but for others I'll go into detail on why I think Necrozma deserves to rise. Necrozma is an extremely versatile, customizable Pokemon with a wide variety of great sets that each have different forms of counterplay, making it very hard to prep for and easy to put on a wide variety of teams. Rocks+3 attack is incredible on bulky offence as a one-time CB close combat switch-in, a way to force in and weaken Incineroar, and rock setter (which it gets up easily due to its coverage+power forcing a lot of switches). 3 attack+moonlight is another great set on BO which lets it stay in on non-Hurricane Noivern and check fighting types more reliably. With Rillaboom in the tier, Grassy Seed+Calm mind is incredibly lethal and acts as a faster alternative to Grassy Seed Reuniclus with better coverage. And Dragon Dance is as great as ever with less people using Golisopod and Escavalier due to the recent Haxorus ban. I've even seen defensive Calm Mind sets (similar idea to dual-dance Reuniculus). Due to the amount of sets, Necrozma fits well on HO (DD under screens), BO (rocks, DD, moonlight 3 attacks, grassy seed), and balance (offensive or defensive calm mind). Its wide-range of sets also have different checks, which forces your opponent to guess/pivot around it. For example, Escavalier is a good check to DD Necrozma, but folds over to special variants; AV Reuniclus is a good check to 3-attacks special sets, but loses to DD. Overall, its bulk and power mean that it almost always forces your opponent to trade with it and sack something in order to actually take it down (unless they have an Umbreon) in almost any matchup, since almost nothing OHKOs it. Basically, it will always get you some sort of progress, whether it is chipping Incineroar, knocking off Escavalier, getting rocks up, or setting up and cleaning late-game. As in my Rillaboom post, I'll share some good partners/cores+testing process+a team for people to try out.


Good Partners:

1.

(DD)+ Healing Wish

DD Necrozma paired with Healing Wish from Celebi or Gardevoir (I use Celebi) is incredible. With HW support, you can play Necrozma much more aggressively early on and hard switch it into fighting types or other stuff it checks, while using DD+coverage+photon to threaten its usual checks (I.e., getting 30% on an Incineroar with EQ, knocking off an Escavalier early game). You can basically trade its HP to weaken its checks and switch it in more often, while being able to easily heal it to full later on.

2.

(Calm Mind+Grassy Seed)+

Calm Mind Necrozma with Grassy Seed (which boosts its defense) with Photon Geyser+2 of these (Heat Wave, Earth Power, Moonlight) is a very potent win condition that smacks offensive teams since it's so hard to take down without Toxic after one boost. I like to use Heat Wave+Earth Power since grassy terrain already helps enough with recovery, especially considering that you are supposed to use this late-game. You can run a Lum Berry instead of Grassy Seed as well, since Necrozma is Toxic bait.

3.

+

(Offensive)

When talking about good cores, Incineroar pairs well with literally anything so I feel like it's cheating to throw it in here. Anyways, offensive Incineroar is a great Necrozma partner since it can surprise and OHKO Pangoro with CC, weaken other Incineroar who may stay in to Toxic you with CC, and check Chandelure, other Incineroar, and Reuniclus. Necrozma checks Cobalion, Sirfetch'd, Rotom-W, and Weezing for Incineroar and can either set rocks to help Incineroar late game or take advantage of the holes SD Incineroar makes to clean with DD late game (depending on the Necrozma set you use).


Testing Process

I decided to play a little over 30 games on my alt 'Scarf-Darmanitan' using DD Necrozma bulky-offence with healing wish support. From my testing, I've used DD Necrozma early game to trade HP and weaken its checks, only to healing wish it back to full and clean late-game.

Testing so far

Example Team

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Importable
This team has a similar structure to a team I used to qualify for UULT, with the similarities being Taunt Cobalion, Scarf Celebi with Healing Wish, and Specs Sylveon. On this version, I put Rotom-W for Defog support, which is mainly to remove Toxic Spikes (which Necrozma hates). The idea behind this team is to use Specs Sylveon to beat down Necrozma checks like Escavalier and use DD Necrozma to clean late-game.


Like with my Rillaboom post, I wanted to go into a lot of detail, which is why this post is as long as it is. Thank you for reading!

Edit: Fixed broken importable link (and fixed a spread that was imported incorrectly).

 

[Hilomilo]

Here's our final update for the pre-DLC meta! This thread will be locked due to the tier being likely to undergo some massive changes as more drops come in next month, though for now we've ranked Pokemon newly available to us or with new roles in the metagame from tools DLC has gifted them, like Rillaboom. Here's what changed:

New Placements

Added to S

Added to A+

Added to B

Added to B

Added to C

Added to C

Added to C-
Rises

A+ -> S

A -> A+

A- -> A

B -> A

B -> B+

B- -> B+

C+ -> B-

C- -> C+

C- -> C
Drops

A -> A-

A- -> B+

B+ -> B

B+ -> B-

B -> B-

(Steel) B -> C+

B- -> C+

C+ -> C

C+ -> C-

C -> C-

(Fairy) C -> UR

(Ghost) C- -> UR

New Placement Reasonings

• Since gaining access to Grassy Terrain and an immensely powerful STAB priority attack, Rillaboom has emerged as a massively defining and threatening force that applies both heavy offensive pressure and excellent support to teammates like Incineroar and Grassy Seed Necrozma. It’s one of the tier’s most immediately threatening Pokemon and has already proven vital in influencing several team structures, warranting a huge jump to S.
• Keldeo’s combination of Speed, power, set versatility, and typing have allowed it to become one of the metagame’s most centralizing forces with limited defensive counterplay. It also offers excellent utility with its ability to check Pokemon like Incineroar and Escavalier, though the tier’s decent amount of switch-ins to its STAB combo, like Celebi and Noivern, prevents it from being just defining enough to start in S.
• Porygon2 and Scyther could both use more exploration but have each established enough uses in the tier to justify placement in B. Porygon2 is an extremely bulky wall capable of checking big threats like Noivern and 3 attacks Celebi, while Scyther’s new access to Dual Wingbeat and excellent Speed give it a lot of potency as a cleaner. Both run into their fair share of flaws and are still quite new but have still solidified respectable niches.
• Ditto and Magneton are both starting in C. Ditto’s a niche yet reliable revenge killer that can take advantage of Pokemon like Cobalion and Scyther but generally lacks splashability. Magneton is quite middling in practice but has a decent damage output and unique niche with Magnet Pull, although no more Hidden Power hurts it pretty badly.
• Pelipper is generally pretty bad but has a serviceable niche as a defogger that provides a useful typing and pivoting unlike its main competition in Mantine. Its uses are often very team-specific, however.

Rise Reasonings

• Incineroar is truly a top Pokemon capable of making progress nearly every turn it’s in play. Between its amazing typing, utility movepool, and set versatility it offers more consistency and splashability than possibly anything else in the tier, emerging as a seriously defining and centralizing force well suited for a spot in S.
• Celebi is rising to A+ on the merit of its 3 attacks set proving extremely useful in fulfilling several roles, as well as the usefulness of sets like Nasty Plot and Stealth Rock. Between its great stats, ability to check Pokemon like Keldeo and Rotom-W, and excellent coverage, Celebi barely fails to pull its weight and makes for a strong fit on the majority of team compositions.
• Necrozma is one of the tier’s most versatile Pokemon and is capable of making great progress with either its Dragon Dance, Calm Mind, or Stealth Rock sets. It’s become a staple on cores with Rillaboom due to its excellence use of Grassy Seed, which has been big in further increasing its potency and overall threat level, justifying a rise to A+.
• Reuniclus is another Pokemon that’s grown prominent on cores with Rillaboom, massively furthering its longevity and sweeping potential with Grassy Seed. Options like Assault Vest have also grown more useful, layering Reuniclus’s uses and giving it a lot to love as an option in the current meta.
• Rhyperior offers some of the best role compression available and is rising to A+ to represent its fantastic splashability and consistency. Between checking Pokemon like Toxtricity and Incineroar and even luring in the likes of Celebi and Rillaboom with Megahorn, there’s a lot it can accomplish in a match while offering traits that keep it a step ahead of its main competition for rockers.
• Pangoro has persisted as a strong option for a breaker with both its nuclear damage output and useful typing in matchups against the tier’s several rising Psychic-types proving vital in giving it great splashability. A-rank certainly represents its current value.
• Copperajah sees a huge rise to A due to the massive exposure both Stealth Rock and Assault Vest sets have seen as great options for the meta. It offers a delightful balance of offensive pressure and defensive utility and is an absolute monster both to switch into and to wear down without usually making a vital trade. Its consistency and teambuilding value are at an all-time high.
• Gastrodon has maintained its surge in usefulness as Rotom-W has persisted as a defining presence and other threats like Keldeo and Heliolisk have stayed prominent. It also pairs excellently with rising Pokemon in Copperajah, increasing its defensive merit enough for another rise.
• Barraskewda getting Flip Turn and Indeedee getting Expanding Force has allowed both to reinvent themselves as great offensive threats in the metagame. Both still struggle with the tier’s many Water immunities and Dark-types, respectively, though their new tools have hugely helped them out and could justify larger rises in the future.
• Goodra’s near perfect coverage and ability to switch into the tier’s bevy of rising Grass-types has allowed it to establish a stronger niche thanks to the several things it can accomplish in a given match. Its role compression is well worth a rise from the C ranks.
• Golurk and Vileplume are rising two subranks to reflect expanded niches within the tier. Golurk’s access to Poltergeist has massively benefitted its offensive worth while checking Toxtricity is just as important as ever. Vileplume has received more exploration as a very useful defensive tool with Strength Sap, a great typing, and the ability to check Pokemon like Cobalion, Keldeo, and Rotom-W.
• Claydol and Runerigus’s access to new tools in Scorching Sands and (in Runerigus’ case) Poltergeist have improved their niches as rocks setters in the tier enough for small rises, though whether they can further rise will require deeper exploration.
• Steelix and Galarian Stunfisk are experiencing small upgrades in ranking due to their useful typings for the metagame and the unique tools each can provide. Steelix’s stronger physical bulk and access to Toxic and Stunfisk’s access to Yawn and Snap Trap give both useful niches to differentiate themselves while still each checking a host of threats, including Toxtricity and Sylveon.

Drop Reasonings

• Bronzong has struggled to keep up as a rocker with other options in Rhyperior and Copperajah proving themselves as more consistent, versatile, and less passive. Its typing is still great but it has struggled a bit as the metagame has grown even more offensive, leaving it more prone to being overwhelmed.
• Darmanitan is still a great breaker but suffers fair opportunity cost with Incineroar being so good and Darmanitan’s defensive utility and longevity being really lacking overall. It’s still among the tier’s most threatening breakers but has grown harder to consistently fit.
• Gardevoir suffers fairly massive competition from Sylveon which has really hurt its opportunity cost in recent months. Between Psychic-type STAB, Trick, and the ability to run Choice Scarf it still has options, though its prominence has definitely fallen off quite a bit.
• Gigalith has struggled a bit as a defensive option due to other Pokemon handling relevant issues better. Between Rhyperior blocking Volt Switch and Steel-types like Copperajah more reliably checking Fairy-types, Gigalith just struggles to differentiate itself as well, though it still offers one of the most consistent checks to the likes of Noivern and Incineroar.
• Flygon has fallen off post-Haxorus ban due to its revenge killing capabilities being rather situationally useful and its damage output being lackluster overall. Dragon Dance sets could certainly pick up in usage but have generally failed to make enough of a splash to keep it in A-.
• Espeon sort of just lacks an identity in the tier. Screens has fallen off a bit as an archetype while its offensive sets face pretty severe competition from top tier options in Necrozma and Reuniclus. It still carves a niche with its high Speed and damage output but generally struggles to find uses worth keeping it in B+.
• Ninetales and Rotom-C have both fallen off as the meta has developed against them. Ninetales’s new access to Scorching Sands is neat, though it still struggles for a slot with other Fire-types in Chandelure and Incineroar often presenting far more utility with their typings and immediate threat level. Rotom-C struggles to carve a worthwhile niche over competing Grass- and Electric-types and can’t handle rising threats in Rillaboom and Celebi very well.
• Salazzle faces intense competition as a Fire-type breaker from options that offer more overall utility in Chandelure and Incineroar, as well as the ability to more easily work around checks like Rhyperior and Gigalith. Centiskorch has fallen off a bit as a defensive option due to the competition both Incineroar and Arcanine often give it, as well as its vulnerability to several of the tier's top threats.
• Silvally-Steel has unfortunately largely fallen off due to how awkward a fit it’s become and how useful other Steel-types like Escavalier and Copperajah have proven to be. Its longevity really suffers due to its item reliance while it struggles to maintain the same balance of offensive pressure and defensive utility as the listed options.
• Sigilyph, Snorlax, Toxicroak, and Whimsicott have all become slightly outdated picks. Sigilyph is largely outperformed by the tier’s rising Psychic-types and struggles to work around threats like Incineroar and Copperajah without careful prediction. Snorlax is the opposite of splashable and is largely prone to being overwhelmed or crippled by many top threats. Toxicroak struggles intensely to compete with Fighting-types like Keldeo and Cobalion, while Whimsicott generally fails to apply itself very well in a post-Haxorus metagame.
• Drapion, Froslass, Shiftry, and Togedemaru are all dropping from C+ due to recently hurt niches. Drapion suffers pretty massive competition from other bulky Dark-types but sustains a small niche with a solid Roserade matchup. Froslass Spikes have never really a been a hit at all in the tier, Shiftry has grown easier to defensively combat while Sun in general is rather mediocre, and Togedemaru can’t convincingly check a lot of what it wants to with its fairly subpar bulk and offensive stats.
• Avalugg is supremely unsplashable and struggles to check much without either Mamoswine or Haxorus in the tier, Torkoal’s preferred archetype often prefers Ninetales as a setter due to its passiveness and isn’t too great to begin with, and Vikavolt’s awkward stat spread and typing just makes it very hard to identify a clear niche, justifying drops to C- for all.
• Galvantula and Galarian Rapidash are both fringe-viable at best which justifies drops to C-. Galvantula has a small niche with its typing and Speed but offers no utility or relevant tools over other Electric-types, while Galarian Rapidash’s iffy damage output, competition, and 4mss make it extremely hard to reliably fit and build around.
• All of the mons that got unranked are really bad.

That's a wrap! Thanks to our community for their role in keeping this thread active and productive and cheers to a new metagame in just a few weeks!