Resource SS UU Viability Ranking Thread (Pre-DLC)

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explodingdaisies

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I would like to nominate shedinja for C-

Forgive the formatting am on mobile and am forum-challenged.

With the introduction of heavy boots, it has breathed new life into shedinja and has given it a nice niche in the meta. It walls some of the biggest threats in the meta including primarina, toxtricity, and gyarados(sans crunch. Bounce is walled by protect). It can 2HKO SpD umbreon after rocks or a bit of chip. Has STAB priority in shadow sneak and can set up with SD. While some may opt for safety goggles with the prevalence of gigalith and sand, boots gives shedinja an immunity to all forms of hazards. And in a meta that's heavily on the offensive side with a plethora of good hazard setters, I prefer to run boots on it.

It is matchup reliant and with the return of toxic on almost every mon, shed needs to run protect to scout lest you get caught by a random toxic.

The set

Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- Protect
 
Aridame/so gimmick here. I'm not comfortable with the idea that Shedinja is actually viable in this tier rather than still just being a fun niche. Its ability to resist entire sets carves itself a pretty nice niche but the list of mons where it's able to do that has been shrinking since the most recent tier shifts and with Gyrados and Primarina likely on their way out almost every mon from A+/A barring Roserade and Toxtricity can run a move/induce status/set up weather to kill it. It used to be that knock off/stone edge was so prevalent in older gens that it had an amazing role at crippling mons that would switch in, like running will-o to burn cobalion and mamo, but for some reason fire types/special attkers feel really threatening in this tier right now that I've switched to toxic instead, which leaves me open against steels. Unless gardevoir suddenly rises I don't really see a case for people to try using it competitively (although the sheer joy of stopping your volturn cores never fades), as having it on your team without properly building around it feels a lot more punishing than the others currently in C-.

(Part of me really wants to say the real answer here should be to stop banning mons that Shedinja resists and instead ban Gigalith so Shedinja can be C-?)

Also I feel like if we're gonna put a mon in S I feel like it should have just as much a proactive role and not just reactive in the meta. What I mean is that Noivern feels more like the poke you slap on a team because you need something that checks a wide range of mons but not threatening enough for me to feel like I need to build the other way around with a Noivern counter in mind. The fact that Hurricane with 70% accuracy is run almost 100% of the time more than Air Slash should indicate that it doesn't really have a high enough special atk and while we noted that hustle wasn't a problem for Durant, Noivern's Hurricane generally hits less with even less accuracy. Maybe I'm just scarred rn by specs Prima being able to ohko at neutral damage and Noivern can't really match that offensive presence without major drawbacks but overall I feel like if you don't build with Noivern in mind you're not really punished for it which feels like a criterion if you want a mon that defines/shapes the metagame.
 
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:Drapion:

Drapion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

This set is underatted and uncommon. Its STAB's hit hard/Knock Off spam is always nice, at +2 it 2hkos everything. It has max attack and speed Jolly to fully utilize its sweeping potential. Lum Berry is always nice vs Will o Wispers/random para, sleep or confusion hax. Yes, it comes in on things like Umbreon, psychic types with ease; sets up a Swords Dance and everything dies:

+2 252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing-Galar: 139-165 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

+2 252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 243-286 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

+2 252 Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 222-262 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Ok so it may look sketchy, but after a Knock Off it clicks Poison Jab and they get knocked out(if they take some chip damage). If it gets Scald Burned or Will o Wisped, it just heals itself with Lum Berry.

Earthquake lures steel types, that some allies would like dented or rid of such as Lucario, Cobalion, Doublade, Duraludon:

252 Atk Drapion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Drapion Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 272-322 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Drapion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Duraludon: 276-326 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 234-276 (72.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Immune to Toxic, Prankster's moves are nullified, resists dark.

I nominate for A
 
So, never said much here before but I've got a bit post for sure! Mainly wanting to focus on two pokemon in particular. Those two mons being Golurk and Runerigus!

:golurk: + :runerigus: to C!

Since their reasons for being viable are similar, i'm going to clump a lot of the information into one nomination. The first and biggest thing to note is its typing of Ghost/Ground. Why is this typing so good? One of the biggest reasons is making it a 100% counter to Toxtricity. This is a huge thing because a lot of the common pokemon in the tier do not appreciate switching into it. The other most common switchins are Gigalith and Rhyperior who both get heavily chipped each time they switch. Being immune to boomburst and overdrive, toxtricity's most spammable moves, makes the niche they have already a big plus for them. Another thing they both share is having hazards, specifically stealth rocks. It makes them fill a niche otherwise hard to find due to the utility the two compact into one slot. Now that I covered the basics that the two share, i'm going to separate the two when talking to say the intricacies that separate them both, and why they are so effective. This will include a sample set for both so people know what it may be able to run.

:ss/golurk:
Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Shadow Punch
- Ice Punch

The Golurk set shown is an offensive stealth rocker similar to Mamoswine. The coverage it has is very much like it, along with it having an overall high attack stat to boot. Compared to most offensive pokemon it is relatively bulky which allows it to, for example live a Hurricane from Noivern and kill it in return. Focus sash is used on it for the general utility of being able to easily live a pokemons attack from from full or during a lead if needed. This set is primarily going to be used on more offensive teams who may need a rocker while also covering the ability to check Toxtricity, and other pokemon if needed due to its focus sash and bulk. It could potentially be used on Balance as an offensive rocker, but it is unexplored in that sense. This leads perfectly into the points for Runerigus!

:ss/runerigus:
Runerigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Wandering Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Protect / Shadow Claw / Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic Spikes / Shadow Claw / Earthquake
- Body Press

Runerigus will primarily be found on balance teams due to its defensive prowess. This is how it seperates itself from Golurk being able to check a multitude of offensive threats that Golurk could not, such as Machamp and Cobalion, due to its enormous defense stat. Unlike Golurk as well, it has options such as being able to set Toxic Spikes and Will-o-Wisp. Overall there are so many options Runerigus can allow on balance teams that no other pokemon would allow especially since it can check Machamp, one of the hardest pokemon for any balance team to deal. Being a ground type with options like t-spikes, and being able to check what it can is amazing role compression. This pokemon is still very unexplored, but due to a lot of these reason it has a lot of potential to fill a niche on balance teams.

Shameless plug but check out Research Week! We're researching Runerigus this week which is very relevant to this post here! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...aquanid-runerigus.3660085/page-3#post-8392531 Click the link to check it out and sign up!

S/O to A Cake Wearing A Hat for the Golurk replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075221832 Golurk kills two pokemon immediately due to great coverage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075348363 Golurks typing coming into hand by not allowing Toxtricity to click its moves
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1080409980 Runerigus checks and weakens Machamp for the rest of the team to win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1080414087 Similar to Golurk, Runerigus' typing coming into handy allowing me to stall out the endgame

Now that I covered the two big ones, I have a few other pokemon that I want to mention that I havent seen anywhere else in the thread.

:sirfetchd: to B+
Overall, it's still a great pokemon and wallbreaker but its viability has just really lowered especially with its competition in Machamp. You can never go wrong with banded scrappy close combat but I feel its just harder to fit onto teams compared to some of the other common fighting types. To me, this warrants a drop.

:incineroar: to A
The tiger is amazing this generation. Heavy duty boots gave it everything it wanted to be an amazing pivot, along with parting shot which is just all the better. Due to being the only fire/dark type in the game currently the pokemon it checks in the tier that were so hard to check before just makes it so splashable on so many teams. It's a great pick I find myself using constantly and I feel with just how consistent it is, it easily warrants a rise up to A.

:braviary: to C+/C
Honestly, I don't even see a reason to use this. It has bulk up but there are so many viable checks to this set it makes it hard to use. Defog isn't viable because of pokemon like Noivern just being so much better at the role. If I wanted a scarf user with defiant, i'd prefer passimian because it can check incineroar. Overall I see very little reason to use this and because of that I think it should drop.

:silvally-steel: to B
So, i'm a big fan of Silvally in general. Silvally-Steel is easily the best out of all of them. Getting defog back was a huge boon for it, especially if you pair it with Noivern, letting it run another set. It also is a great swords dance user and general pivot. It's one of the only lures to water types too because Swords Dance BOOM. Anyways, I think it has the tools and versatility to rise.

:persian-alola: to Shadow Realm
This one is a quick one. This is Incineroar, but faster, and a worse typing. There's no reason to use this at all. Just use the other superior cat in Incineroar everyone.

:accelgor: to Shadow Realm
Another one that is very meh to me. If I want a fast, suicide lead that can set spikes I feel froslass is the superior option for a lot of reasons. There may be nothing that can rival accelgor's speed, but other than that, there's really no benefit to using it.

Noivern A+ -> S Agree
Reuniclus A+ -> A Agree
Lucario A- -> A Disagree
Polteageist A- -> B+ Agree
Espeon B+ -> B Abstain
Araquanid B -> B+Abstain
Bewear B -> B- Agree
Snorlax B- -> B Disagree
Rotom-F C+ -> B- Agree
 

Moutemoute

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is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion

Ø ➔ C+ or C

I definitively agree with DraconicLepus post. Both Runerigus and Golurk are viable pick in the current metagame, thanks to their typing which allows them to check with ease Toxtricity which is a dominent threat. Golurk is a nice pick for more offensive builds while Runerigus is a more defensive pick and a great check to common threats such as Cobalion, physical Necrozma if it runs Will-O-Wisp and Machamp thanks to its ability. Not gonna talk a lot about them, the post just above mine cover pretty much everything about this two.


A- ➔ A

Although Incineroar is pretty much a staple at the moment, I firmly believe Bronzong should rise. I love the fact that this Pokemon is able to handle so many threats such as Specs Gardevoir, Toxtricity, non-Shadow Ball Celebi or Roserade. While it needs some support (mainly some Wish support to stay healthy), it provides a ton of utility to a team. It's also a quite nice user of Toxic thanks to its Steel-type which allows it to punish Umbreon without having to fear its Synchronize. One of the best Stealth Rock setter in the tier in my opinion.


A- ➔ A

Incineroar is just amazing right now. It provides so much utility thanks to its typing, its access to Intimidate, to Knock Off, Parting Shot, Toxic, Will-O-Wisp etc.. This Pokemon fulfill its role perfectly. Heavy-Duty Boots are a real bless for it and allows it to be a perfect pivot without having to fear Entry Hazards and especially Stealth Rock. Like Bronzong, its better with some Wish support but which allows it to handle even more threats such as Gardevoir, Chandelure, Espeon, non-Earth Power Celebi/Necrozma. I've been playing it with Overheat to catch out of guard things like Doublade and Cobalion and it's definitively really nice.
 
So, never said much here before but I've got a bit post for sure! Mainly wanting to focus on two pokemon in particular. Those two mons being Golurk and Runerigus!

:golurk: + :runerigus: to C!

Since their reasons for being viable are similar, i'm going to clump a lot of the information into one nomination. The first and biggest thing to note is its typing of Ghost/Ground. Why is this typing so good? One of the biggest reasons is making it a 100% counter to Toxtricity. This is a huge thing because a lot of the common pokemon in the tier do not appreciate switching into it. The other most common switchins are Gigalith and Rhyperior who both get heavily chipped each time they switch. Being immune to boomburst and overdrive, toxtricity's most spammable moves, makes the niche they have already a big plus for them. Another thing they both share is having hazards, specifically stealth rocks. It makes them fill a niche otherwise hard to find due to the utility the two compact into one slot. Now that I covered the basics that the two share, i'm going to separate the two when talking to say the intricacies that separate them both, and why they are so effective. This will include a sample set for both so people know what it may be able to run.

:ss/golurk:
Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Shadow Punch
- Ice Punch

The Golurk set shown is an offensive stealth rocker similar to Mamoswine. The coverage it has is very much like it, along with it having an overall high attack stat to boot. Compared to most offensive pokemon it is relatively bulky which allows it to, for example live a Hurricane from Noivern and kill it in return. Focus sash is used on it for the general utility of being able to easily live a pokemons attack from from full or during a lead if needed. This set is primarily going to be used on more offensive teams who may need a rocker while also covering the ability to check Toxtricity, and other pokemon if needed due to its focus sash and bulk. It could potentially be used on Balance as an offensive rocker, but it is unexplored in that sense. This leads perfectly into the points for Runerigus!

:ss/runerigus:
Runerigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Wandering Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Protect / Shadow Claw / Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic Spikes / Shadow Claw / Earthquake
- Body Press

Runerigus will primarily be found on balance teams due to its defensive prowess. This is how it seperates itself from Golurk being able to check a multitude of offensive threats that Golurk could not, such as Machamp and Cobalion, due to its enormous defense stat. Unlike Golurk as well, it has options such as being able to set Toxic Spikes and Will-o-Wisp. Overall there are so many options Runerigus can allow on balance teams that no other pokemon would allow especially since it can check Machamp, one of the hardest pokemon for any balance team to deal. Being a ground type with options like t-spikes, and being able to check what it can is amazing role compression. This pokemon is still very unexplored, but due to a lot of these reason it has a lot of potential to fill a niche on balance teams.

Shameless plug but check out Research Week! We're researching Runerigus this week which is very relevant to this post here! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...aquanid-runerigus.3660085/page-3#post-8392531 Click the link to check it out and sign up!

S/O to A Cake Wearing A Hat for the Golurk replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075221832 Golurk kills two pokemon immediately due to great coverage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075348363 Golurks typing coming into hand by not allowing Toxtricity to click its moves
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1080409980 Runerigus checks and weakens Machamp for the rest of the team to win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1080414087 Similar to Golurk, Runerigus' typing coming into handy allowing me to stall out the endgame

Now that I covered the two big ones, I have a few other pokemon that I want to mention that I havent seen anywhere else in the thread.

:sirfetchd: to B+
Overall, it's still a great pokemon and wallbreaker but its viability has just really lowered especially with its competition in Machamp. You can never go wrong with banded scrappy close combat but I feel its just harder to fit onto teams compared to some of the other common fighting types. To me, this warrants a drop.

:incineroar: to A
The tiger is amazing this generation. Heavy duty boots gave it everything it wanted to be an amazing pivot, along with parting shot which is just all the better. Due to being the only fire/dark type in the game currently the pokemon it checks in the tier that were so hard to check before just makes it so splashable on so many teams. It's a great pick I find myself using constantly and I feel with just how consistent it is, it easily warrants a rise up to A.

:braviary: to C+/C
Honestly, I don't even see a reason to use this. It has bulk up but there are so many viable checks to this set it makes it hard to use. Defog isn't viable because of pokemon like Noivern just being so much better at the role. If I wanted a scarf user with defiant, i'd prefer passimian because it can check incineroar. Overall I see very little reason to use this and because of that I think it should drop.

:silvally-steel: to B
So, i'm a big fan of Silvally in general. Silvally-Steel is easily the best out of all of them. Getting defog back was a huge boon for it, especially if you pair it with Noivern, letting it run another set. It also is a great swords dance user and general pivot. It's one of the only lures to water types too because Swords Dance BOOM. Anyways, I think it has the tools and versatility to rise.

:persian-alola: to Shadow Realm
This one is a quick one. This is Incineroar, but faster, and a worse typing. There's no reason to use this at all. Just use the other superior cat in Incineroar everyone.

:accelgor: to Shadow Realm
Another one that is very meh to me. If I want a fast, suicide lead that can set spikes I feel froslass is the superior option for a lot of reasons. There may be nothing that can rival accelgor's speed, but other than that, there's really no benefit to using it.

Noivern A+ -> S Agree
Reuniclus A+ -> A Agree
Lucario A- -> A Disagree
Polteageist A- -> B+ Agree
Espeon B+ -> B Abstain
Araquanid B -> B+Abstain
Bewear B -> B- Agree
Snorlax B- -> B Disagree
Rotom-F C+ -> B- Agree
One quick thing I wanted to add on the topic of Golurk is that it has a unique niche in AV Trick, something only it and Swoobat can do. I played with it a little bit in OU last week, while exploring how good trick was. I haven't had a chance to test it in UU but I imagine it fairs better. In case you forgot, tricking an assault vest is effectively a permanent taunt, although there are a few ways around it, most notably tanking a knock off after. But it's a great tech that shuts down a lot of support mons.
 
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Hello everyone! I have only started playing UU in this generation for a few days, but I wanted to a nomination based off my experience on the ladder.

1584804124306.png
Toxtricity to A- or lower:


I tested this Pokemon extensively on the ladder, and the issue I felt was that I had to constantly guess with this Pokemon. It feels like a constant 50/50 whether or not your opponent will go into their ground or steel type. I often find myself clicking Boomburst as a mid-ground play, which isn't as strong as attacks from other breakers like Gardevoir or Haxorus. Using this over other wallbreakers is a hard sell considering that it has 0 defensive utility, is slow, and often has to guess in order to get anything done.
 

ShroomisHarold

Banned deucer.
1584830402911.png


I noticed, we have not got any SRank pokemon in this viability ranking thread. May I First nominate Mamoswine for this, position it has the Best STAB offense type in the tier and hit many pokemon super effective. A Nightmare for offense teams to face with a, combo that balanced and stall team may find Hard to handle too. A Hefty attack stat and lot of good moves and utilities. Thick Fat is Just icing on the cake. A menace, in previous generations and the same here. If you do not think this is the case well then I have, a rhinocerous to sell you!!
 

ShroomisHarold

Banned deucer.
1584901962471.png



Firstly I would, like to apologie for double post I had a Thought that arrived in my mental, after the above fact. Also I additionally, would like to say I apologie for what I am About to profess. I know hard work and effort, has been put into this viaiblity rank, but I believe this Intellion is too highly ranked. The niche it brings, to this tier is just Not apparent to me. while I admit that This can be useful I also, in addtion believe that he is just Jack of all trades but not very well At them all. Slightly too weak and not, strong, yes it is fast. But how far does this take you in this tier?? I don't think, very far. Perhaps the author could reconsider, a slight Demotion in ranking. And when hidden ability, is released then we Can think about this matter again?
 
I think everybody is sleeping on Hustle Flapple and how much damage this thing can do.

:flapple: Unranked ——>C
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOVESETS

:flapple: @ Expert Belt
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Grav Apple
- Outrage
- Sucker Punch / Draco Meteor
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CALCS
Hustle + Expert Belt + Dragon Dance makes his attack stat skyrocket, making it able to just...

:Milotic: 252 Atk Expert Belt Hustle Flapple Grav Apple vs. 252 HP / 220 Def Milotic: 398-470 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:Vaporeon: 252 Atk Expert Belt Hustle Flapple Grav Apple vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 410-485 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
:Reuniclus: +1 252 Atk Expert Belt Hustle Flapple Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 461-545 (108.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:Umbreon: +1 252 Atk Hustle Flapple Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
:Necrozma: +1 252 Atk Hustle Flapple Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 387-456 (115.5 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:Rotom-Mow: 252 Atk Hustle Flapple Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Mow: 246-289 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:Centiskorch: 252 Atk Hustle Flapple Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Centiskorch: 369-435 (108.2 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
PROS vs CONS
It's biggest strength is in the form of its signature move Grav Apple, which reduces the opponents defense by 1 stage with every hit, meaning even against things that can normally survive 2 hits, the -1 defense could change that, causing more damage output for Flapple.
This puts mons like Umbreon and Slorlax in 2HKO Range of Grav Apple, making you able to avoid having to lock yourself into Outrage against the opponent, leaving you open to a fairy switch in.

I would rank Flapple higher, if it wasn't for its biggest enemy.. itself. With Hustle every move has an 80% accuracy, meaning games could be lost on that 20% chance on times... I have experienced that first hand. Along with the fact that the moveset itself has little to no variation. I've theorized about a possible Choice Scarf set to outspeed some other threats, but it would lose access to even more damage with the Dragon Dance, though anyone is free to play around with that to see what you can come up with.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHECKS AND COUNTERS
While this thing can do a lot of damage tho, there are definitely things that can stop it in its tracks.
Corsola-Galar can stop Flapple, but only if it doesn't have a +1, once Flapple is +1 it is able to 2HKO Corsola
+1 252 Atk Hustle Flapple Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 187-222 (57.7 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:mamoswine: -Anything with Ice Shard just straight up OHKO's Flapple, including the current biggest UU Threat.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flapple: 452-536 (160.8 - 190.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Though Flapple's biggest saving grace here is Sucker Punch, as if Mamoswine is weakened, you can take out Mamo with it.
252 Atk Hustle Flapple Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 123-145 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Though with a possible ban for Mamo coming soon, Flapple would definitely have a better time not having to worry about playing around Ice Shard.

:Avalugg: -Avalugg seems to be Flapple's biggest problem, as you can only 3HKO with help from Grav Apple, while Avalugg can in return completely obliterate you.
0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flapple: 712-840 (253.3 - 298.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Flygon: -Honorable mention to Flygon, as although it can't switch into Flapple, once it's in against it, Scarfed sets outspeed +1 Flapple and can OHKO it pretty easily, usually leading to Flapple being forced to switch, while DD Flygon can threaten it out if it isn't +1, but once Flapple is +1 DD Flygon isnt an issue.

Overall while I think this thing can definitely be stopped by things, when it gets set up it can take down some really bulky mons, and when set up correctly can run through teams, and I definitely think this thing at least deserves a mention near the lower tiers, as it can be very useful to take down the bulky water types that can plague teams.

A team I have been using with this set has used Araquanid along with a few really bulky walls to help Flapple and the other sweepers get in and do damage, it's definitely not a perfect team, but I've been having a lot of fun with it, and thought i'd add it as a footnote: https://pokepast.es/be0152446b9eb018
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
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Hi everyone. Just checking in to let y'all know that this thread will be locked temporarily. We'll reopen discussion with a considerably large update considering the rankings are pretty outdated right now, though I'd expect that to happen around a week from now so that we have time to settle in a post-suspect metagame with our new drops. Thanks!
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Here's our update for the post-suspect metagame:
New Placements
Added to A+
Added to A+
Added to A
Added to B
UR -> C+
UR -> C-
UR -> C-
UR -> C-
Rises
A+ -> S
A -> A+
A- -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> B+
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
C- -> C
Drops
A+ -> A
A -> A-
A- -> B+
A- -> B
B+ -> B
B -> B-
B- -> C+
B- -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C-
C- -> UR
  • Rotom-W has already made a strong impact thanks to its amazing typing and ability in addition to its great bulk and Special Attack. Between its boosting, defensive, and choiced sets it has a lot of strong options to take advantage of its colorful movepool with. It also offers a solid check to a surplus of defining presences, including the tier’s many waters, overall giving it enough value to fit nicely at the top of the A ranks.
  • Sylveon is another Pokemon that’s made a big splash both offensively and defensively. Choice Specs is a top notch breaker thanks to Hyper Voice’s amazing damage output, great coverage, and the additional utility Sylveon presents with its great typing and bulk. It’s also a premier cleric/wish passer capable of taking on several top threats, most notably including Noivern and Haxorus.
  • Darmanitan is among the best choices for wallbreakers thanks to its great Speed for the metagame and Flare Blitz’s devastating power. It’s a staple on sun cores and brings useful pivoting capabilities and the ability to viably run various items alongside its breaking prowess. Its longevity issues and limited defensive utility hold it back enough for A to be a solid starting point.
  • Torkoal has a firm niche as a sun setter thanks to the current presences of both Venusaur and Darmanitan. While its usability is limited to sun, it provides the archetype great utility thanks to its solid support movepool. Torkoal and Ninetales each offer different yet key benefits over one another as sun setters, though Ninetales’s better splashability and role as a standalone breaker makes keeping Torkoal a rank lower fair for now.
  • Togedemaru offers a decent answer to threats like Toxtricity, Heliolisk, Roserade, and Sylveon and can put in work with both Choice Scarf and Wish sets. Despite its lackluster stats, the strength of its typing has been highlighted well in UUPL and through increased general exploration, justifying C+ as a starting point.
  • Golurk and Runerigus both have niches as rockers capable of countering Toxtricity in addition to offering other useful tools. Golurk’s great coverage and damage output give it an offensive niche, while Runerigus offers better bulk and additional utility with options like Will-O-Wisp and Toxic Spikes, giving both use on different team structures.
  • Vileplume is fairly unexplored but has enough of a niche for a rank thanks to its awesome defensive typing, Strength Sap, and utility with options like Sleep Powder and Growth. It’s a strong check to many powerful threats and puts in work consistently enough for a rank.
  • Noivern’s Speed, typing, and amazing coverage and support movepools make it the tier’s most malleable and splashable Pokemon available. It provides a stellar blanket check to a vast amount of threats while offering a strong offensive presence of its own. Its combined supportive and offensive capabilities are unmatched and the amount of roles it can fulfill in the metagame at such a small cost is well worth a rise to S.
  • Roserade’s UUPL showing has perfectly showcased its offensive hold. Its amazing STAB combination is complimented excellently by its options for abusing forced switches in Sleep Powder and Spikes, which rarely prevents it from wasting a turn. Despite its frailty, Roserade’s synergy with several prominent threats, offensive potency, and fantastic utility movepool make it a top pick and one of the tier’s most consistent Pokemon, warranting a spot in A+.
  • Bronzong has surged as a rocker, functioning as one of the tier’s few sturdy checks to presences like Roserade and Celebi while blanketing Fairy-types like Gardevoir and Sylveon. With Incineroar it forms one of the tier’s strongest defensive cores and makes great use of options like Toxic and Protect to circumvent its existing weaknesses. Its current value is far more pronounced than before, which is reflected well with a rise.
  • Incineroar is an amazing pivot with the perfect combination of defensive tools to check several prominent Pokemon and consistently contribute in a match. In cores with Bronzong it can force many threatening breakers onto their back foot, including Sylveon, Gardevoir, and Celebi. One of the most splashable and valuable teambuilding tools, an A ranking adequately reflects Incineroar’s current worth.
  • Machamp has surpassed its competition as the tier’s most fearsome Fighting-type with its practically unwallable coverage and immense damage output. It can reliably pick up a kill or two in every match and consistently forces defensive backbones on their toes, and overall poses a larger threat than the rest of B+.
  • Venusaur benefits from sun’s new access to Darmanitan and Torkoal as well as the archetype’s generally increased exploration. It’s a lethal sweeper that has become easier to position favorably late-game, with the drops of Sylveon and Rotom-W also improving its value.
  • Escavalier is a great pick as all of Sylveon, Gardevoir, Roserade, and Celebi remain prominent threats in building. Although it can be hard to fit over other Steel-types at times, it has a firm niche of remaining offensively threatening while checking a bevy of important Pokemon, which has proven strong enough for a rise.
  • Arcanine and Gastrodon are both rising thanks to their current defensive value. Teleport has proven a great addition to Arcanine’s arsenal, improving its niche as a pivot while giving it another notable perk over Incineroar in addition to its access to recovery. Gastrodon is the tier’s best check to one of its biggest presences in Rotom-W.
  • Blastoise is rising to C+ while Goodra and Galarian Rapidash are rising to C due to having improved or more explored niches within the tier. Blastoise’s defensive spinning sets have proven useful while Shell Smash can still pose a threat against unprepared teams. Goodra’s breaking sets have excellent coverage while still providing a solid check to Roserade, Rotom-W, and Venusaur. Rapidash has received sparing usage in UUPL, which has decently showcased the threat it poses with its strong STAB coverage and great Speed.
  • Chandelure, Milotic, Reuniclus, and Galarian Weezing have all struggled enough to fall from their status as top-tier, A+ worthy Pokemon. Chandelure has lost a lot of steam as Incineroar has become a defining pivot and other options for Fire-type breakers have developed strong niches. Milotic struggles from an offense-oriented metagame as well as the surges of several strong Water-type checks. Reuniclus is easy to offensively overwhelm and requires far more support as the tier has naturally adjusted to Psychic-types. Sylveon’s drop has eaten into Weezing’s niche while it also dislikes the surges of Roserade, mixed Lucario, and sun teams.
  • Cobalion, Incineroar, and Sylveon’s drops have largely eaten into Umbreon’s reliability. Now a harder fit with more competition, it struggles to find as much use and consistency, which a drop reflects well.
  • Polteageist is dropping due to its lack of appreciation for Incineroar’s prominence, while the persisting usage of Gigalith and Doublade also hurts it a fair amount. It’s grown far easier to naturally prepare for overall.
  • Vaporeon has struggled with the influx in Electric-type usage, as well as the stiff competition it faces from other Wish passers and bulky Water-types. Due to its Wish reliance constricting moveslots, it also often struggles to provide the same extent of utility as other options like Mantine.
  • Sirfetch’d has greatly fallen off due to often being outperformed by Machamp. Despite this, it can still carve a niche with its more spammable STAB move and access to First Impression, though it has grown far more situational, justifying a two-subrank drop.
  • Drapion and Sigilyph are falling from B+ due to becoming rather outdated picks. Drapion lacks as clear a niche in a post-home metagame and struggles to perform a particular role without fair competition from Pokemon like Incineroar or Pangoro. Sigilyph is hard to justify over options like Reuniclus, Gardevoir, and Necrozma due to its worse power and greater vulnerability to prominent Pokemon like Gigalith and Incineroar.
  • Bewear, Duraludon, Virizion, and Xatu have all dropped from B. Bewear is hard to justify over the tier’s bevy of more popular Fighting-types due to their better typings, movepools, or overall utility. Duraludon provides very iffy defensive utility due to its awful special bulk, and also lost some worth as a rocker after Cobalion dropped. Virizion can’t reliably break past several prominent threats, like Noivern and Celebi, while facing massive competition from other Grass- and Fighting-types. Xatu is a bit of an awkward fit due to how passive it can be while also struggling against a lot of premier Pokemon.
  • Copperajah, Corsola, and Linoone are all dropping from B-. Copperajah also struggles to provide too much defensively and is held back by its awful Speed and opportunity cost. Corsola is among the tier’s easiest defensive Pokmeon to take advantage of, and Linoone struggles to make headway as Cobalion and Doublade remain prominent Steel-types.
  • Alcremie and Vaniluxe are dropping two subranks from B-. Alcremie’s niche and opportunity cost have been hurt massively by Sylveon’s drop. Vanilluxe can’t reliably make progress with Gigalith, Ninetales, and Torkoal all being popular hail deterrents, while the defensive presences of Incineroar, Bronzong, and Escavalier hurt it a lot too.
  • Aromatisse greatly struggles for a niche with Sylveon in the tier. Its main niche is its better physical bulk for handling Poison Jab Haxorus among other threats, as well as a potentially key Taunt immunity, though unless this is further explored a future unranking is quite likely.
  • Accelgor and Alolan Persian don’t provide nearly enough over other Pokemon that fulfill their roles, like Froslass and Incineroar respectively, justifying falling off the map entirely. Throat Spray Accelgor is also just bad.
Discussion points will be covered in the next post. Thanks!
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
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Discussion Points
Sylveon A+ -> S: Sylveon has already become a dominant presence in the tier, offering amazing offensive and defensive qualities and finding uses on nearly every team structure. Between its solid longevity even on breaking sets, fearsome offensive capabilities, and great splashability, it has a lot to love and is already proving important in shaping the direction of the metagame, which could very well be worth a rise to S.

Gigalith A -> A+: Gigalith remains a premier defensive option as Noivern, Gardevoir, and Toxtricity remain solid, though it also provides a great answer to sun teams and can combat Incineroar fairly well. Its role compression could be well worth a rise, though it has some healthy competition with rockers like Rhyperior and Bronzong.

Milotic A -> A-: Milotic has experienced a pretty big decrease in overall prominence which could be reflected best by dropping a bit further. While it still presents a great answer to the likes of Noivern and Doublade, it’s been hurt by the experimentation of many other bulky waters, Rotom-W’s drop, and the surge of Pokemon like Roserade, Venusaur, and Shift Gear Toxtricity.

Reuniclus A -> A-: Like Milotic, Reuniclus has also fallen off a fair amount, which dropping further could better reflect. It’s become easier to defensively answer to with Incineroar, Bronzong, and Escavalier all seeing increased value, while the tier is also no stranger to powerful wallbreakers capable of blowing past Reuniclus.

Rotom-C A- -> B+: Rotom-C provides a strong offensive check to Rotom-W while offering a strong sweeper with its unique typing, though it also suffers massive competition from the washing machine and has unfavorable matchups against the trending Roserade, Darmanitan, and Venusaur. Whether its unique traits are enough to keep it at A- is worth more closely discussing.

Umbreon A- -> B+: Umbreon has been hit pretty hard by metagame trends with Sylveon’s recent drop, Cobalion and Incineroar’s huge roles in the metagame, and the high viability of offensively inclined builds. It still provides one of the tier’s more reliable switch-ins to Pokemon like Chandelure, Polteageist, and Heliolisk, which may be enough to maintain its current spot.

Flygon B+ -> A-: Flygon has always been one of the tier’s best scarfers but also greatly appreciates Mamoswine’s recent departure. Its typing and ability both provide several offensive/defensive perks, though locking into either of its STABs can be quite unfavorable while Dragon Dance sets, despite receiving more recent exposure, have considerable opportunity cost.

Passimian B- -> B: About half of the VR team voted in favor of a Passimian rise, so I figured it’d be a good option for a discussion point. With Defiant it can provide a decent Parting Shot deterrent while both banded and scarfed sets provide their unique merits, though its shaky Fairy-type matchup, odd Speed tier, and competition from other Fighting-types can hold it back at times.
 
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Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
The meat of this post is gonna be on the controversial kitten bc I haven't seen much comprehensive discussion on it and would like to see a little more.

:ss/sylveon:

Sylveon A+ -> S: This is one I've been thinking about for a while and I just can't see it yet. Sylveon's a menace for sure; it's difficult to break and no slouch offensively - but there's a significant amount holding it back..

-4MSS. Not as much of a problem on Specs sets because it gets like, 2 coverage moves, but on cleric sets this is a nightmare. It needs Hyper Voice, Wish and Protect, so you're immediately down to 1 slot. In that slot, it wants one of Mystical Fire, Heal Bell and Calm Mind, all of which helps its matchups vs various different teams but leave it highly vulnerable to others; for example, without Mystical Fire it's fodder for the ever-common Roserade and the trending Escavalier, without Heal Bell it can't sit on fat mons like it would otherwise try to, and without Calm Mind it can struggle to actually get much breaking done - it's strong for a defensive mon but still not really that powerful.

-Stuff it'd check is already running stuff to answer it.
Rhyperior and Gigalith used to sometimes run Heavy Slam for Weezing as a matchup thing, but now it's pretty much standard to deal with the kitty.

-While nothing in the tier can really do what cleric Sylveon does, its offensive sets face direct competition from the very powerful Gardevoir. Between its stronger Psychic/shock, slightly stronger coverage moves and fairly comparable power with Moonblast, it's got a little more strength behind it. On top of that, it's faster, has utility options in Knock Off, Healing Wish, hell even stuff like Will-o and most notably Trick, and it has defensive utility in Trace allowing it to switch into stuff like Vaporeon and Milotic a little easier. It's not as bulky, sure, but offensive Sylveon really can't come in on much either. Plus, Scarf Gardevoir is a thing too - Sylv just can't pull off a similar set.

-It's just really quickly worn down. It suffers from one of its best answers, Roserade, being one of the two Spikers in the tier, which screws it over next time it comes in, in addition to the fact that the new defogger on the block, Rotom-Wash (which btw is a great pairing for sylveon) also hates it. It also takes sand chip, possibly toxic damage and is vulnerable to getting its Leftovers knocked off. It's all well and good that Sylveon checks Haxorus at 95% but it's just realistically hard to keep its HP that high without a lot of support - something that an S rank mon generally doesn't need.

Sylveon's amazing. It's threatening in every sense of the word and has a whole host of great traits that make it great against the current meta. But, in my opinion, it's just not S rank. Not yet.

---------------------------

Ok the rest of this will not be as fleshed out but here goes:

Gigalith A -> A+ - As long as sun's in the tier I definitely agree with this one. Being the ONLY consistent sun answer is huge, in addition to the whole host of other threats it walls. I think it's absolutely on par with the A+ mons - at the very least it's leagues ahead of all the A mons save maybe Incineroar.

Milotic A -> A- - No. It faces a lot of competition in Rotom-Wash now, but nothing is capable of sitting on half the tier like Milo is. It's such a threat vs bulky offensive teams and those are absolutely the most prevalent teams in the current metagame - if anything it's gotten better because it's a decent check to Darm and the loss of Mamo is huge because it couldn't take that on even tho it was supposed to. I think it's still a league above Mantine and the rankings should reflect that.

Reuniclus A -> A- - Team player cat is team player cat. Plus, there's so much offensive shit flying around like Roserade and Darmanitan that Reuni wants to check and just can't. It's not even that good of a breaker, either; Psychic might have great neutral coverage in this tier, but it hits like nothing SE. All of its sets suffer against something that's prevalent in the meta. It was overhyped to begin with and A- is exactly where it belongs.

Rotom-C A- -> B+ - Too much competition, too many things that wall it, not rly the best. I think it's got a lot of merit in the sense that it checks most of the other elecs but it's not a very good one on its own. I'd be fine w/ this.

Umbreon A- -> B+ - ;-; sorry esta but kitten is broken and it's just not good in fairy + coba meta. Umb's struggled for a while, I don't have much to say. It's gotta go down a little.

Flygon B+ -> A- - FIRE ASS FLYGON OML. Flygon's got so much to love rn; being one of the only Rock resists in the tier that isn't literally a Rock type, being the best Haxorus revenge killer ever, being great vs Sun, a solid Noivern revenge killer and more. It's got decent defensive utility alongside its ok bulk and is just so much better than its B+ placement says. Definitely should be a bit higher.

Passimian B- -> B - I have not used the monkey but my UUPL team has and it has put in work. It abuses the shit out of broken cat too. B seems fine.

---------------------------

And now for some personal noms:

Heliolisk A- -> A - Helio abuses the shit out of so many mons in this tier that it's kinda insane. It bops non-scarf Darm, walls Rotom-Wash, outspeeds and does massive damage to Cobalion, gets the freest volts ever on Doublade and Incin, laughs at every Water type in the tier other than like Pod, beats every Ground ever, is hard to switch into and is just so much better than literally anything at generating offensive momentum. It's fast, powerful and has real defensive utility despite its crappy bulk. What really sets it apart for me, though, is how much it abuses current teams - with the exception of Togedemaru (or Flygon if you're crazy), nothing can block its Volt Switch and get away with it, and in a tier with a million and one crazy breakers it's amazing to have a mon that can reliably get them in for free while still doing some damage. It's a cut above all the other elecs, minus Rotom-Wash. Being in A would reflect that so much more than its current placement.

Ribombee B- -> B/B+ - I've been preaching the bee for as long as I can remember now, but I'm finally making a formal post about it. Specs Ribombee is a massive threat that easily abuses this tier's severe lack of Fairy resists while being significantly faster than Gardevoir and Sylveon, its direct competition. It also has access to Trick to cripple opposing Sylveon which is huge for a lot of teams. In addition to its genuinely scary strength, it has access to Sticky Web, which is viable on Choiced sets and creates a playstyle that's incredibly difficult for most teams to handle that I've called "Semi Webs" bc I'm bad at naming things. A strong offensive partner - for example, Lucario or Choice Band Darmanitan - can take advantage not only of the switches Ribombee forces into mons like Escavalier and Bronzong (uturn's good!) but also abuses the shit out of the webs it can put up. This is a team featuring -three- Choice Specs users that showcases not only Specs Ribombee's breaking power but also its ability to support more breakers on its team. I think this is incredibly unexplored and Bee's rank seems to be based purely off its sash lead set, which is upsetting. Hopefully this one gets considered.

I've been writing for like half an hour so I'm gonna stop but expect a post on some mons like Linoone and Haxorus in the future. Thank you for reading and remember to stay safe and wash your hands in these trying times.
 

Reuniclus A -> A- strongly disagree A+ RISE: Reuniclus has a new role with assault vest. He counters choice spec Gardevoir, growth Venusaur, NP Lucario, choice spec Intelleon, choice spec Toxtricity, life orb Roserade, choice spec/taunt Noivern, Rotom-W/C NP and choice spec Sylveon in one slot. In comparison Gigalith is less flexible. He has no recovery option excepted rest and protect even if he set ups sandstorm and stealth rock. Reuniclus has Knock off and Futur Sight. They are good supports options.


Gigalith A -> A+ agree: Sun is the main purpose for Gigalith rising. Sandstorm is powerful because few Pokemon are immune in UU. Gigalith regains Toxic with Pokémon Home


Umbreon A- -> B+ agree: Umbreon is a better defensive Pokémon than sylveon is checking psychic, poison and ghost Pokémon. Darmanitan and Chandelure are punished by Foul Play. However, Umbreon is in competition with Incineroar and it isn't easy when you face a Pokémon with a better ability, a better movepool and a better typing in a metagame with sun domination.


Sylveon A+ -> S disagree: My analysis is Sylveon is the new toy syndrome. He has various utility but considering tiers orientation now with many fire-typing and poison-typing Pokemon Sylveon can't perfoms well.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tFc5gKScBMin_15a7ehSRiVTvviVI700MBWc_rv1N3Zrc3k9jjJgrRWEutl2c1pDCHMaNgHLpIIYwd5u3jCJtMDYvzeWAjKaRQJEk8pGCC0usAHFJTtI9QEFvWZjmhKgnOOUp_Ux
A -> A+ must rise: Chandelure is an offensive check to Venusaur (without earth power), Sylveon and fire spam (thanks flash fire).
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.

Reuniclus A -> A- strongly disagree A+ RISE: Reuniclus has a new role with assault vest. He counters choice spec Gardevoir, growth Venusaur, NP Lucario, choice spec Intelleon, choice spec Toxtricity, life orb Roserade, choice spec/taunt Noivern, Rotom-W/C NP and choice spec Sylveon in one slot. In comparison Gigalith is less flexible. He has no recovery option excepted rest and protect even if he set ups sandstorm and stealth rock. Reuniclus has Knock off and Futur Sight. They are good supports options.
What EVs do you run. For the record, you need max SpD to counter Toxtricity:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 160-189 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And no matter what, you never counter Sylveon:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 138-163 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO

Sylveon always 2HKOs or 3HKOs you and you are slower and cannot OHKO back. Same for Intelon (unless you run Thunder or Energy Ball).

I don't know how I feel overall about Reuniclus but I wish we could be more measured in our statements. Honestly, being a very strong check to all these Pokemon is still huge.
 

warzoid

I have several gelatinous friends
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
:ss/reuniclus:
As someone who has used specially defensive AV Reuniclus on multiple teams, I think the set has a lot going for it. Special attacking dark and bug types are rarely seen, leaving Chandelure and Polteageist as the only common special attackers that Reuniclus can't safely switch into. It is a solid answer to the increasingly popular Venusaur and Shift Gear Toxtricity. Like all Regenerator mons, it's very difficult to chip (especially with Pursuit gone). It is true, as pif pointed out, that Reuniclus cannot switch into some of the stronger Specs users and KO them before it is KOed itself. Does that mean it is useless against those mons? Not really. First, it can scout the move that the Specs user has locked into, allowing a teammate that resists the move to pivot in. Second, Reuniclus can simply Knock Off the Choice Specs, weakening the foe's power. In the worst case, you might have to switch out Reuniclus and sack, but Reuniclus will heal and will be able to check the now itemless enemy in the future.

So, is this a Reuniclus to A+ post? No, it's not. AV Reuniclus is great on stall, but on balance it faces strong competition from Bronzong and Gigalith, which offer Stealth Rock support and key resistances that allow them to be useful against physical attackers as well as special attackers. Reuniclus doesn't fit well on offense, although there is unexplored territory with the Future Sight + fighting type combo. I'm not necessarily against dropping Reuniclus to A- either, but I would encourage
everyone to try building with the AV set because I think there is a ton of potential there.

:mantine:
I think Mantine should drop to B+. Physdef spread is shaky versus specs Chandelure, Cobalion are all Stone Edge or Volt Switch, and Golisopod is on the decline with Mamo gone and sweepers running Protect. Rotom-Wash also gives it new competition as a defogging water type.

:sylveon::rotom-mow::milotic:
I'd keep Sylveon at A+ for now, although I could see it being S rank in the future. Supporting drops for Rotom-Mow and Milotic.

:flapple:
Not a nom, but I'll share my thoughts on SlippySlappySwampy's Flapple post while I'm here. Expert Belt isn't great because generally everything that Flapple hits super effectively is already going to be OHKOed easily. The set you want to be running is Life Orb. Physically defensive Avalugg can drop to Life Orb Grav Apple into Outrage (learned that one the hard way). It's tough to justify using a 70 base speed mon with inaccurate moves over something like Haxorus though.
 

ramolost

parfum quartier
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Here to nominate.

:ss/cobalion: A+ -> S
I think Cobalion should be with Noivern in S, because it sits on the whole tier. SD is a huge threat for a lot of teams, and its speed tier is really good for the tier. Also, T-Wave allows it to cripple its most plentiful check in Noivern. Access to Volt Switch and SR is also huge utility for teams. i feel like this mon should be S: it's consistent, versatile, brings a lot of utility in one slot and it's definitely shaping the meta game.


:ss/espeon: B+ -> B

I don't really see how Espeon is any better than Sigi tbh. It struggles against Incineroar and is outclassed by Gardevoir in every way. Magic Bounce is cool, but since its got substandard bulk, its not reliable. It's not bad at setting screens, but I feel like screens are quite forgettable in the meta rn. Personally just feel that Espeon compared to the other B+ mons is truthfully outclassed.

EDIT : i totally forgot this one :

:ss/aromatisse: C- -> UR
do i have to explain why ? now that sylveon is in the tier you have 0 reason to use this. Sorry bud you carried some of my games but now u have to go.

Sylveon A+ -> S disagree : idk yet tbh sylveon seems fine in A+
Gigalith A -> A+ disagree : idk i understand that giga is cool w sun but i dont think its better than other rockers A is fine
Milotic A -> A- Agree
Reun A -> A- Agree
Rotom C A- -> B+ no idea
Umbreon A- -> B+ agree : i dont really like umby in this meta its just free breakers against balance teams i just feel like sylv is better and having coba / luke / garde in the tier doesnt really help it. Still a cool mon.
Flygon B+ -> A- agree : really cool mon idk why it was in B+
Passimian : B- -> B AGREE : i wanted to make a post about it and now i see that ? pass is just super cool with all these cats and cobalion i really like it. One of the rare scarf who with u-turn too so its a yes for me.
 
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Notily

dirt rich
:barbaracle: --> idk higher
Barbaracle @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Stone Edge
- Shell Smash
- Protect


3am nom so not gonna be articulate but barb is danger as fuck and way better than everything in c+ and probably half the stuff in b. a bunch of structures rely on super common mons doing stuff that barb abuses really well (noivern dracoing stuff, gigalith/rhyp in general). with stuff like pivot spam from noivern/incin and the set-up opportunities trick/sleep(rose) provide you can justify running barb on common bo builds because the super constricted options for counterplay to the s / a+ / a rank mons give it set up and theres very few ways to reliably revenge it, and that outweighs the lack of defensive utility it provides.

on top of that it's able to choose it counters to an extent (read: matchup fish) via chople / lum / lo + low kick though i think shuca is most reliable.

so yea its not hard to put barb in a spot where it wins cause our speed control options are basically scarf flygon / noiv / first impression, i think it should rise
 
Hi all,

Just wanted to give my support to Slowpoke92i's nomination for Espeon. I'd argue for an even lower drop to C+/C rather than B.
1586636991552.png



I legitimately cannot think of a single reason to use this Pokemon. As a special breaker, it is completely outclassed by Gardevoir, Sylveon, and Chandelure; as a way to deter hazards, you may as well use Rotom-W or Noivern for hazard removal; and both Necrozma and Indeedee are far better for dual screens (Necrozma provides rocks while Indeedee provides protection from priority, respectively). Being parting-shot bait for Incineroar, walled by the increasingly-popular Escavalier, while not being able to break through popular specially defensive Pokemon like Gigalith, Milotic (specs psyshock can 2HKO after some chip damage, but do you really want to choice lock yourself into a psychic move in this meta?), and Umbreon is not a good look. Several Pokemon in the B or B-, while not necessarily being great, fill at least some niche. Drapion is a decent T-spiker, Passimian is a nice offensive pivot, and even niche picks in C+ like Barbaracle are scary in the right situations. I'm struggling to think of any niche Espeon has, even compared to Pokemon in the B+/B ranks. This lack of niche is why I'm proposing it to drop this low.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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Alright so since people seem to be very confused about what
this thing actually does, I'm gonna attempt to show why it's good over other mons that, on the surface, give it competition.

:ss/espeon:
Espeon @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Toxic
- Light Screen
- Reflect


Here's what I believe to be Espeon's best set. I'm not sure where the misconception comes from that Necrozma is a better screens setter - your own rocks aren't nearly as valuable as keeping rocks off your side of the field on HO teams - and Indeedee, while helpful for Polteageist, has to choose between Light Clay and Terrain Extender and also screws over other strong HO mons like Linoone.
This set's important for Polteageist, Barbaracle etc. because keeping their sashes intact is HUGE! I don't think any other screener is nearly as viable as Espeon, and in fact I don't think any other screener bar Indeedee should -ever- be used over it. It's just too good on these teams.

:ss/espeon:
Espeon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Trick


This thing is a NIGHTMARE to switch into. Yes, it's slight bait for Incineroar, but that's far from the hardest mon to chip and lure and you can just Trick it your specs anyway. People seem to be under the illusion that this is outclassed by Gardevoir and Sylveon entirely and that couldn't be further from the truth.
Espeon's Speed tier is what gives it an advantage over these two. Relevant threats that it outspeeds (assuming no item, so ig some scarfers dont always count) that would otherwise cause Sylveon and Gardevoir issues are:
:heliolisk: :cobalion: :rapidash-galar: :celebi: :flygon: :haxorus: :togedemaru: :darmanitan: :drapion: :roserade: :lucario: :rotom-wash: :rotom-mow: :toxicroak: :venusaur: :chandelure: :passimian:
In Sylveon's case, this list extends to:
:toxtricity: :tsareena: :polteageist: :barbaracle: :centiskorch: :sirfetchd:

So, that's a long list. And we seem to be ignoring all these mons, which will often cause big issues for the teams Espeon fits on. But that's not all! Espeon can also run this exact set with a Choice Scarf and become the 2nd fastest scarfer in the entire tier, achieving feats such as outpacing +2 Polteageist and +2 Barbaracle and even +2 Modest Venusaur.

There are other, unexplored sets:

Espeon @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Morning Sun

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot

...and some others that I've decided to omit. Go look at its movepool, you'll see what I mean.


I'm not sure why everyone seems to hate this thing. Maybe it's just because I'm a HO spammer, but there's really a LOT to love about Espeon in this meta, especially since Garde is giving it less competition due to new competition in Sylveon. It's been having effective performances on ladder, in tournaments and is overall just a strong mon regardless of how much it hates -ONE- other mon that's very prevalent in the meta. Keep Espeon in B+.
 

Estarossa

moo?
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I also want to post in favour of Espeon staying at B+, as Lily has explained well for the Dual Screens set, so i'll just talk about offensive sets. It terms of the Specs/LO set its speed tier is honestly a huge part of what makes it good atm for me, being able to check super common stuff like Roserade and Cobalion unlike Gardevoir is honestly huge, making it a really good option on teams lacking long term reliable answers to them, and honestly feels easier to fit on teams than Gardevoir cause of this too.

There also seems to be a missconception being posted that Espeon is always going to be completely Incineroar food, but Weather Ball is a really neat option that is starting to be explored, that allows Espeon to get through Incineroar very easily, and takes advantage of the prevalence of Gigalith's Sandstorm.

-------------------------------------

Other stuff -

:gigalith: A -> A+ agree - While sun is here, Gigalith is so incredibly valuable, as otherwise counterplay is really limited to stuff like keeping checks like Incineroar near full, or aggressive play with Noivern that can be easily punished by Hypnosis Ninetales. This alone honestly makes it worth A+ to me right now, but all the other important stuff it keeps in check like Shift Gear + Protect Toxtricity, Noivern, Specs Sylveon is just so valuable.

:barbaracle: rise agree - 100% Agree with Notilys post on this one. It's a super underrated threat at the moment, Pokemon that can revenge kill a +2 Barbracle is especially limited against Protect sets, and it's basically guaranteed to force sacks from the opponent against most common teams currently in order to revenge kill it, eg. by Intimidating it. It can really abuse a lot of common team structures for set up opportunities too as Notily said. Its especially dangerous on Screens HO's too, since Espeon can guarantee it's sash stays intact, basically guaranteeing that it can get that free set up.

:gastrodon: B- -> B : While it was a very niche option in the past, Gastrodon has a really nice niche currently on more defensive teams as a Washtom counter, which is really valuable for certain team structures, and massively helps against the popular Washtom VoltTurn teams atm. (It also beats Tect Barbaracle which is legit threat rn lol)

:escavalier: B+ -> A- : Honestly this Pokemon is arguably the best it has been atm. Walling Roserade is always valuable, especially with how much usage it has right now and how difficult it actually is to switch into especially Sleep Powder variants, and being able to cripple Incineroar for teammates with Knock Off / Close Combat is great. Being able to dissuade Choice Specs Sylveon from clicking Hyper Voice, and dissuading the use of Heal Bell Wish sets is always fantastic. With Sylveons drop, it also got arguably the best partner it could have wanted too as a Cleric. Escavalier in general really punishes common team structures right now and dissuades Pokemon like Bronzong from ever offering it free turns, and the lower and lower use of Milotic/Vaporeon/Mantine has just made it even more threatening.

Furthermore, Escavalier serves as one of the few Pokemon that can safely switch into Venusaur even with Gigalith removing it's Sun, as checks like Noivern take far too much from Sludge Bomb (and sand weather ball) which is very valuable with how much of a threat Sun is atm. Escavalier being a Steel-type that can check Haxorus is also valuable right now with the loss of Mamoswine, and being a check to threatening sweepers like DD Necrozma which have been seeing increased usage is fantastic.
 
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Eve

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time for me to finally make a VR post! It's also my 666th post so hopefully it isn't too cursed. I just wanted to talk about the mon I use the most in UU, because it really deserves to be talked about.

:ss/flygon: B+ -> A-: STRONGLY AGREE
I'd say Flygon is currently easily the best it has been this gen with the drops and Mamo ban significantly improving the meta for it, and imo it's the best Scarfer by a mile. Scarf Flygon has a positive matchup against a lot of the best mons in the meta as a revenge killer, most importantly the extremely dangerous Haxorus but also Noivern, Cobalion, Roserade, Celebi (with prior damage), Chandelure, Gardevoir, Darmanitan, Ninetales, Gigalith, Incineroar, Heliolisk, and other less common things. these are all extremely valuable targets to keep in check, and Flygon does it with relative ease and consistent moves (unlike other Scarfers such as Inteleon). Flygon can also do these things throughout a game much better than other Scarfers due to its immunity to most hazards, resistance to Stealth Rock, and immunity to Sandstorm, which all combine to let it stick around very well. This reliability in checking so many common Pokemon means that Flygon is almost always valuable in any given game, obviously a good trait.

The rise of Rotom-Wash is a slight annoyance as it's immune to Earthquake, but its effect on the metagame in lowering the usage of various other Water-types with reliable recovery (and Golisopod, who has fallen off significantly due to Mamoswine's departure too) is also a benefit as Rotom-Wash is vulnerable to being chipped down via U-Turn or Dragon Claw and hazards if not running Pain Split. Flygon actually pairs quite well with Rotom-Wash, as Rotom can pressure some of Flygon's best switchins (Bulky Waters and Galarian Weezing), lets Flygon drop Defog for the extremely useful Dragon Claw, and covers the Ice weakness. Flygon also pairs amazingly with Roserade and Celebi, both of which are in a great place in the meta currently and love the free switch-ins Flygon can provide to stuff like Rotom-Wash, other Waters, and Sylveon in Roserade's case.

Flygon can make use of the aforementioned breakers softening the opponent for its other talent- cleaning. imo Flygon is one of the absolute best cleaners in the meta right now, with Outrage and Earthquake being extremely potent STABs for the majority of the tier to deal with. Flygon doesn't even have to KO in one hit to get work done thanks to its respectable natural bulk, which lets it do impressive stuff like survive a +2 Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed after Stealth Rock and KO back, and typing which provides a means to block Volt Switch spam, a resistance to Fire attacks, and the ability to easily tank out standard Rhyperior and Gigalith variants as it breaks them down.

tldr; Flygon has an amazing matchup against most of the offense you see in the meta at the moment, reliably checks things that you need a check for, brings out the best in great mons like Roserade, has decent offensive-defensive utility, and is a surprisingly effective and reliable cleaner. Oh also, it can Defog if you desperately need that and also need a Scarfer. I've been replacing Noivern with Flygon a lot lately as my fast Dragon, and it hasn't failed to impress in the slightest. I'd absolutely consider it better than its fellow B+ Pokemon and on par with those in A-.
nomorenoivern.png
 
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time for me to finally make a VR post! It's also my 666th post so hopefully it isn't too cursed. I just wanted to talk about the mon I use the most in UU, because it really deserves to be talked about.

:ss/flygon: B+ -> A-: STRONGLY AGREE
I'd say Flygon is currently easily the best it has been this gen with the drops and Mamo ban significantly improving the meta for it, and imo it's the best Scarfer by a mile. Scarf Flygon has a positive matchup against a lot of the best mons in the meta as a revenge killer, most importantly the extremely dangerous Haxorus but also Noivern, Cobalion, Roserade, Celebi (with prior damage), Chandelure, Gardevoir, Darmanitan, Ninetales, Gigalith, Incineroar, Heliolisk, and other less common things. these are all extremely valuable targets to keep in check, and Flygon does it with relative ease and consistent moves (unlike other Scarfers such as Inteleon). Flygon can also do these things throughout a game much better than other Scarfers due to its immunity to most hazards, resistance to Stealth Rock, and immunity to Sandstorm, which all combine to let it stick around very well. This reliability in checking so many common Pokemon means that Flygon is almost always valuable in any given game, obviously a good trait.

The rise of Rotom-Wash is a slight annoyance as it's immune to Earthquake, but its effect on the metagame in lowering the usage of various other Water-types with reliable recovery (and Golisopod, who has fallen off significantly due to Mamoswine's departure too) is also a benefit as Rotom-Wash is vulnerable to being chipped down via U-Turn or Dragon Claw and hazards if not running Pain Split. Flygon actually pairs quite well with Rotom-Wash, as Rotom can pressure some of Flygon's best switchins (Bulky Waters and Galarian Weezing), lets Flygon drop Defog for the extremely useful Dragon Claw, and covers the Ice weakness. Flygon also pairs amazingly with Roserade and Celebi, both of which are in a great place in the meta currently and love the free switch-ins Flygon can provide to stuff like Rotom-Wash, other Waters, and Sylveon in Roserade's case.

Flygon can make use of the aforementioned breakers softening the opponent for its other talent- cleaning. imo Flygon is one of the absolute best cleaners in the meta right now, with Outrage and Earthquake being extremely potent STABs for the majority of the tier to deal with. Flygon doesn't even have to KO in one hit to get work done thanks to its respectable natural bulk, which lets it do impressive stuff like survive a +2 Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed after Stealth Rock and KO back, and typing which provides a means to block Volt Switch spam, a resistance to Fire attacks, and the ability to easily tank out standard Rhyperior and Gigalith variants as it breaks them down.

tldr; Flygon has an amazing matchup against most of the offense you see in the meta at the moment, reliably checks things that you need a check for, brings out the best in great mons like Roserade, has decent offensive-defensive utility, and is a surprisingly effective and reliable cleaner. Oh also, it can Defog if you desperately need that and also need a Scarfer. I've been replacing Noivern with Flygon a lot lately as my fast Dragon, and it hasn't failed to impress in the slightest. I'd absolutely consider it better than its fellow B+ Pokemon and on par with those in A-.
Strongly Agree, This thing just feels like a Landorus-T From Gen 7 OU, because it can do so much. In the past 100 attack was mediocre, but with the tier being "softened up" scarf becomes a great sweeper and pivot. The reason I compare it to Landorus is that they both had the scarf set as their main set, but it can be sculpted to fit almost any team save the fattest balance. 80/80/80 bulk is not that bad when you start looking at how many common mons this thing resists, mainly by chance. Need a fast pivot? Scarf Flygon, Need a bulky cleaner? Roost Dd Flygon. Hell this thing can also be hazard control to act like a noivern if your team calls for it. In addition, Ice is not a very common sight. Is haxorus a better dragon breaker? sure, Is noivern a better pivot, sure. Is Rhyperior a better ground type tank? sure. But can any of those mons fill the same number of roles that Flygon can? no.
TL;DR: Role Compression
 
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