Resource SS ZU Viability Rankings v2 - Update @236

Alright time for my by-weekly VR novel.

Raises:

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A --> A+
This things the devil. I think people are well aware just how much of a threat this is and its starting to cross the line of extremely centralizing for the tier as if you don't have a hard answer that can go the grind game, you're in trouble because no matter if you're playing stall, balance, HO, webs, or whatever it may be, this thing only needs 1 free turn and you can auto lose just on the cremie match up alone. Its threat level alone is worth the A+ rank on the stored power sets but you can mix it up with other variations too with Dgleam, Mystical fire, and recover sets. I don't think anyone didn't see this nom coming.

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A- --> A
My personal favorite rocker and something I basically made daniYSB spam during his seasonal run. Offense is back and its the best rocker the playstyle has access to because it fixes your rotom, mane, and Kanga match ups while also pressuring all our common removal options and abuses key walls like Garbodor. Heavy slams also really fun for Alcremie.

EDIT: I was running heavy slam on this for cremie but it turns out SD rhydon just hard checks cremie because you win the set up war against it. So its a lot more generically good than I thought because its just a hard kanga, rotom, mane, and cremie answer in your rocker slot.

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B --> B+
This is honestly my pick for something that can go even higher than this but more people need to start using the Night Shade taunt toxic sets before I really start pushing this up any higher. Its so solid in the metagame right now as its a physical wall not bothered by knock off (which is huge) that also gives you a water immunity against stuff like Specs Poliwrath and Cramorant which is just a side bonus to what the mon already does. It also slaughters any Clefairy/fat type teams.

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B --> B+
Solid little glue mon. Currently one of the better rotom answers and all around special sponge. Not a lot to say about the little pancake that people don't already know. Its just good and widely used.


Drops:

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A -->A-
Trend of teams straying away from this continues. Still good but generally not as favored by teams in the meta as these bulky pivots just aren't seeing a ton of play right now.

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A --> A-/B+
So touching on the point of bulky pivots not really being as favored lately compared to when this was first ranked in A ages ago, Wishi also has the unfortunate downside of other water resists taking its place for a lot of teams. Things like Cram, Specs Poli (which while not super common yet has gotten a lot of important tournament wins this past week and I expect to start picking up even more), Jellicent which I think will only get even more common, and even stuff like Jynx, cuno, clef, and Ferroseed. I think we have plenty of amazing water resists to chose from right now and holding an A rank for a mon like this just is a product of a past meta sticking around on the VR despite the meta moving on past it.


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A- --> B+/B
This one hurts my soul a bit as an avid stall lover. But this meta has just not been kind to the poor thing and full stall has seen a drastic drop off in both play and success in the tier. Its still a perfectly fine playstyle but I wouldn't call it one of the top tier play styles right now even tho I think it can be a good tournament pick because in a tournament you don't need to account for every random on and can more tailor a team. But as a general playstyle I think its rather hit or miss.

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A- --> B+
Same story as Pyuk but it does have the saving grace of Audino balance teams still holding on to a bit more relevancy, but I don't think that's enough to keep it from dropping out of the A ranks.

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A- --> B+
Thievul pretty much replaced this. And with Tangela being everywhere you don't even get the luxury of clicking SD and expecting to break. Knock into Leaf Storm still does 75% to Tangela so its still mildly annoying, but its really not as great as it was when it first rose up. Its also absolute Cremie fodder despite being a dark type thanks to it just getting LO recoil stalled.

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B+ --> B-
This was good for like a week before Cram and Rapidash really showed up so it snuck all the way up here and has remained under cover ever since. I've tried to experiment with this mon so much but its just so lack luster in almost every way this meta.
 
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viet noa

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is a Pre-Contributor
:manectric: to A
i've been an advocate for manectric for a while now, and there’s a reason why. i feel like manectric is one of the most splashable pokémon in the entire tier, and its ability to either hard wallbreak or reliably clean is already extremely valuable in and of itself. even without switcheroo and lightning rod, it would still at least be a solid threat. however, the volt switch immunity that gives it a special attack boost is a massive boon imo. with volt switch immunities being required on teams, manectric provides that value while also getting extra power. furthermore, walls like audino and bulky alcremie have to be careful to not get completely crippled by switcheroo. the team support from volt immunities + its own volt switch + great spatk and speed + switcheroo makes it easy to slap on any team that isn’t stall. because of that, i view manectric with the same value i view other A tier threats.

:tangela: to STAY, :kangaskhan: to S-
this is no disrespect to kangaskhan, i just feel like tangela is in a league of its own. most offensive threats in this tier are beasts that still need at least a tiny amount of team support. often times, tangela IS that team support that everyone looks for. kangaskhan is an absolute beast, but you can at least justify not having it on your team. maybe you have another great physical breaker like sawk, centi, or cinccino. if you don’t have tangela on your competitive team, it’s not always easy to justify why. as a result, i think tangela is the most defining pokémon in the tier.

:ninetales: to STAY
it’s definitely more difficult to add ninetales onto teams than before, because the rise of rapidash and cram give it reason to not be thrilled. however, with the right team support, which usually consists of “slap on a tangela and another check”, ninetales becomes a terrifying special attacking sweeper. i think its role in the meta, due to its great speed tier and offensive prowess on the special side, is great enough to warrant its B+ ranking.

noms i agree with:
:alcremie: to A+
:jellicent: to B+
:pyukumuku: to B
:silvally: (Electric) to C
edit: even if it’s a requirement on stall, i never completely got the hype around pyukumuku. trick and taunt are really prominent, as well as threatening grass/electric types that can force it to spam recover and eventually wear down.
 
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:dugtrio-alola: Dugtrio-Alola B- to C-
Maybe this would be too steep a drop, but Duggy-A just seems bad right now. It's mainly used as a lead, but it has a bad matchup against some of the tier's best rockers (namely Rhydon) and pivot leads (e.g. Cinccino, Persian-Alola, Thwackey). It usually ends up being a suicide lead and Froslass fills that role better. It has a good speed tier, but its attack stat is underwhelming and STAB Earthquake and STAB Iron Head are resisted by the bulky grass- and water-types, respectively, that are becoming more popular. It's also really frail and won't get a lot of switch-in opportunities - if any - throughout the course of game. It's not a terrible mon, I just think it's not well-suited to the current metagame.

:silvally: Silvally-Electric UR to C/C+
I won't make this section too long, I just wanted to ride beauts's coattails and second the notion that Silvally-Electric is viable. My EV spread is a little different than his, but I ran the same movepool and found it to be a pretty effective mixed breaker/cleaner. Like Beauts said, I'm not sure exactly how to rank this thing just because there's the opportunity cost of a Silvally slot, but I do think it's viable and is worth including.
Silvally-Electric @ Electric Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Work Up

EDIT: I'm tacking on another nomination to highlight a Pokemon that I think deserves more love right now.

:unfezant: Unfezant UR to C/C+
I began toying with Unfezant for a few reasons: 1) it is one of the few physical attackers in the tier that cannot be countered by Tangela, and 2) its ability to lure fat ground-types like Rhydon and Stunfisk and pivot out.

It punishes some of the tier's answers to common physical attackers like Sawk...
:tangela: 252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 158-188 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
:qwilfish: -1 252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
:jellicent: 252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
...and can occasionally help counter threatening physical attackers like Thwackey, Centiskorch, and three attack Gourgeist-S variants, by virtue of its typing
:thwackey: vs. :unfezant: 252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Unfezant in Grassy Terrain: 100-118 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
:unfezant: vs. :thwackey: 252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thwackey: 482-570 (171.5 - 202.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:centiskorch: vs. :unfezant: 252+ Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Unfezant: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:unfezant: vs. :centiskorch: 252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Centiskorch: 510-600 (149.5 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:gourgeist: vs. :unfezant: 252 Atk Gourgeist Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Unfezant: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO
:gourgeist: vs. :unfezant: Gourgeist Poltergeist vs. Unfezant: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
:unfezant: vs. :gourgeist: 252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist: 306-360 (112.9 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It has a few other decent matchups of note: it checks unboosted Frosmoth and Shiftry, and Super Luck gives it a shot to break bulky booster Alcremie.

It can also offer role compression as a defogger, if need be, although it admittedly doesn't have a great matchup vs. a lot of rockers. If another Pokemon on your team is packing hazard removal, it has some other options for its fourth moveslot. It can run Taunt or tech Heat Wave for Ferroseed to bypass Iron Barbs. Quick Attack is also an option to help finish off severely weakened scarfers. Lastly, Facade might be helpful in the event that you get statused.

There are some things that limit its effectiveness, of course. 120 STAB Brave Bird behind 115 base attack hits hard, but recoil is a double-edged sword. 252 speed EVs and a Jolly nature still aren't enough to speed Silvally forms. It also hates getting knocked. Additionally, Rotom forms are lurking everywhere and it won't bust through the aforementioned Rhydon and Stunfisk on its own.

That said, I think having the ability to break Tangela and some other physical walls, to fast pivot into favorable matchups, to help answer common physical attackers by virtue of its typing, and offer role compression as a defogger, make it worthy of being listed in the VR despite its limitations. I've included some replays of Unfezant being useful vs. some pretty good players.
 
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Got a few mons I think deserve a raise:

:unfezant: Unfezant UR to somewhere in C
I'll start by agreeing with thebtboy above that Unfezant should be ranked; as he said, it really takes advantage of Tangela/other grass types being the sole physical wall for a lot of teams.

I have been using CB Fez a bit with slow pivot support, and aside from a few bulky mons that resist flying (e.g. Rhydon, Stunfisk) and exceptionally defensive ones (e.g. Avalugg) it doesn't really have any switchins. The majority of those that can come in on it lack reliable recovery and so can be pivoted on with U-Turn and slowly chipped away; another bonus is that if you 'unfortunately' pick up a burn from something like Coalossal while pivoting out you can switch from spamming BB to spamming Facade instead.

Here are some random fun calcs and the set I've been using:

252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 236-278 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 150-177 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Miltank: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 204-241 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 162-192 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 119-141 (45.5 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lycanroc-Midnight: 169-200 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 130-154 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Unfortunately I never remember to share replays so just have this one from ZULT where Unfezant only netted 1 kill - but the team it was facing pretty much lost a mon every time it was in.

It does, however, have several drawbacks:
  • Reliant on defog support if not using HDB
  • BB recoil, especially combined with rocks weakness
  • Frustrating speed tier - just below the Silvallys

:electivire: Electivire UR to C-
I don't have a super long compelling argument for this but I think mixed Electivire is in quite a nice spot right now, with coverage that threatens a lot of the walls in the tier, cleaning the way for other mons that would otherwise struggle to break through. 123/95 offensive stats are pretty nice, and Evire has two decent abilities to choose from as well.

252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 199-235 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Expert Belt Electivire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Expert Belt Electivire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 163-192 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 331-394 (93.5 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Stunfisk: 242-286 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Fan: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I actually played around with CB for this guy a bit too but imo Electivire needs the versatility of not being locked into one move.

Again, key drawbacks:
  • Doesn't have the power to break walls it's not packing a SE move for
  • Slight 4MSS: Wild Charge, Cross Chop, Ice Punch, Flamethrower, Earthquake; even Toxic and Volt Switch are all useful depending on the situation
  • Speed ties with Silvallys

:lurantis: Lurantis C- to C
At first glance this thing just looks like a slower, worse version of Malamar but it has a cool niche in being able to power through mons that would wall a purely physical set with Leaf Storm, letting you comfortably deal with bulky ghosts and physical walls. This thing can tear apart balance/BO teams that aren't packing a bulky flying or poison type (e.g. Altaria, Golbat, Articuno) and even these dislike losing their item to a potential Knock Off, which is not on my preferred set but is definitely usable. It's also nice how physical attackers with a type advantage such as Centiskorch actually lose if they switch into a Superpower.

Furthermore, Lurantis has a reasonable support movepool, with reliable recovery, Aromatherapy, and Defog, allowing it to compress a few roles within a team if necessary. If using a Phys Def set, it has the bulk to function as a shaky Silvally-Ground check (but needs to correctly predict the U-Turn to heal up). I've also seen some more attack-oriented sets on the ladder with G-Glide and terrain support which seems cool too, but haven't experimented with these.

In this replay you can see how, once Altaria and Combusken are removed, Lurantis has a clear pathway to a win - it is able to set up physically alongside its contrary pal Malamar and then bop it with special moves. Unfortunately I got crit and lost, but such is life.


Drawbacks:
  • Fairly match up dependent
  • Key moves run out of PP quickly
  • Very slow; easily revenge killed by strong special attackers
  • Not useful as a defog deterrent due to flying weakness
 

Tuthur

Haha CEO
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Noms time!
:kangaskhan: S -> A+, Kanga just doesn't feel like an S mon anymore. Physical walls like Tangela and Rhydon are just too popular and prevent Kangaskhan from making much progress. Trapping sets are really hard to use well versus offensive teams which have been far more popular lately.

:tangela: S -> A+, preparing for Tangela is honestly pretty simple. It must stay away from a lot of attackers due to the need of its Eviolite to check threats like Adamant Kangaskhan and Band Sawk. Jynx, Sweet Veil Alcremie, and Silvally-Poison are checks wich have risen in popularity, while stuff likes Garbodor and Skuntank are still top tiers.

:rapidash-galar: B -> A-
:swoobat: B -> A-
:cottonee: UR -> somewhere in C and maybe higher kek.
:bw/cottonee:
Cottonee @ Terrain Extender / Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grassy Terrain
- Encore
- Taunt
- Memento
Grassy Terrain is an amazing playstyle atm and Cottonee just provides insane setup opportunities for the Grassy Seed sweepers. I also think Swoobat and Galarian Rapidash are insane breakers and the VR should reflect how dangerous they are and how easily they can claim wins.

:ss/silvally-flying: UR -> C+
Silvally-Flying @ Flying Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Flame Charge
- Surf
Silvally-Flying is an amazing cleaner. Most teams rely on Tangela to deal with Silvally formes, Silvally-Flying is able to take advantage of these teams pretty easily. It also takes advantage of Coalossal and Rhydon's rise as it is able to break through them after minimal chips thanks to Surf. It also gets setup opportunity on two of the most common attackers in Sawk and Thwackey (also resists its priority, helping it to clean).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1362120595
 

wooper

heavy booty-doots
is a Forum Moderator
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A --> A+
This things the devil. I think people are well aware just how much of a threat this is and its starting to cross the line of extremely centralizing for the tier as if you don't have a hard answer that can go the grind game, you're in trouble because no matter if you're playing stall, balance, HO, webs, or whatever it may be, this thing only needs 1 free turn and you can auto lose just on the cremie match up alone. Its threat level alone is worth the A+ rank on the stored power sets but you can mix it up with other variations too with Dgleam, Mystical fire, and recover sets. I don't think anyone didn't see this nom coming.
i personally have never contributed to the vrs of any tier of any generation because i mostly just play for fun, but i really wanted to second this nomination. alcremie's versatility in movesets, its usable bulk, great abilities in sweet veil and aroma veil, support options, sweeping potential, prowess as a wincon, and more really solidifies this mon as a top tier threat imo. i could even see it being bumped up to S if im being totally honest, but i totally agree with A+ at the bare minimum though. you have so many options when running this mon, including double dance with either gleam or stored power, defensive cm + gleam + mystical fire, draining kiss + aromatherapy, cm 3 attacks, offensive with 3 attacks + recover, and honestly probably more. echoing kay, sometimes it really only needs just 1 free turn in order to win. it's so scary sometimes and definitely worthy of a rise imo. edit: i think that even the increase in popularity of heavy slam rhydon should show us that more people are trying to compensate for this beast, thus warranting a rise.

ive been having fun with this set on a team that has a lot of other defensive mons, so i opted for a more offensive spread. it outpaces adamant max speed perrserker and ohkos with mystical fire, with the rest in hp to boost its bulk.
Alcremie (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 244 HP / 120 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire
- Recover

:kangaskhan: S -> A+, Kanga just doesn't feel like an S mon anymore. Physical walls like Tangela and Rhydon are just too popular and prevent Kangaskhan from making much progress. Trapping sets are really hard to use well versus offensive teams which have been far more popular lately.

:tangela: S -> A+, preparing for Tangela is honestly pretty simple. It must stay away from a lot of attackers due to the need of its Eviolite to check threats like Adamant Kangaskhan and Band Sawk. Jynx, Sweet Veil Alcremie, and Silvally-Poison are checks wich have risen in popularity, while stuff likes Garbodor and Skuntank are still top tiers.

:rapidash-galar: B -> A-
:swoobat: B -> A-
while im here i might as well second these noms as well. ive been feeling similarly about literally all 4 of these mons. kang just isnt as prevalent anymore in my experience and lots of teams are packing ways to deal with her. same with tang: the spaghetti monster just is not as omnipresent as it once was a few weeks back, and while it does handle something like thwackey with the rise of gterrain teams, it loses its eviolite far too often and/or loses to the special sweepers in the back, namely mons like gapidash, swoobat, drifblim, etc.
 
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A+ --> A
Okay this ones going to sound wild because people still think its the best rocker in the tier but let me break down why I think its actually really bad as a rocker despite it being a god-tier pivot.

Right now the metagame is very dependent on getting your rocks down and maintaining them as well as boots that need to get knocked off. In theory Uxie can do this by being a rocker that can knock the boots off of Cram/Alt/Cuno but in reality it does this very very poorly because all these boots removal mons can freely defog on Uxie which means them getting their boots knocked actually does nothing as if you can't maintain these rocks you're putting out then you don't get any value in the knocked off boots; the only removal that can't freely defog on it is basically just rotoms and Golbat which leaves it in a very awkward place of being an amazing pivot but really bad at being a rocker. It also doesn't help that defensively all it really does is wall sawk and kinda buys you time vs kanga and vally ground which ends up giving it a huge opportune cost of using compared to its counter parts like Rhydon or Ferroseed. The only teams I think that actually end up valuing Uxie as a rocker are strictly volt-turn and I've been vocal about how these teams aren't doing too hot in this meta. It is interesting in that Uxie can force specific lines where it just u-turns all game on cram/alt/cuno so there is potenital in that kind of team that can abuse those mons but again, you're making that trade off by never being able to maintain rocks the entire game so its still kinda sketchy.

I think this is by far the most over rated mon in ZU as a rocker and the best set left for it is NP which is why I'm not nomming it lower.


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B+ --> A-
The last time I nommed this it was before it started seeing wide-spread use so now that its had time to sit in the meta and get popular (10% usage in UMPL with over a 70% winrate) I figured I'd take the time to nominate it to move up again because its still so solid especially now that specs poli is a set now. Its a water resist that preys on a lot of the common water resists people are running right now like jynx, wishi, and poli which can make it super awkward to play around as gulp missile is hell to get through. It has gotten slightly worse since the original nom since skorch teams have gotten better about playing around it but it still maintains itself as one of the best removal options in the tier and its a mon that almost no matter what will put in work every single game.


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A- --> B+
This was good for a very small time but the rise of Alcremie, Clefairy, and offense means this really has a hard time doing what it did when it first moved up. I think specs knock off sets are interesting and largely under used to get past Clefairy but it still maintains the problem of needing so much slow momentum support just to bank on the fat match ups.


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B+ --> B
Alright unpopular opinion #2. This mon sucks for everything outside specifically checking Frosmoth. So its a Skorch switch in but Skorch just knocks its boots and now it takes 50% for trying to switch in from rocks + the hit. Its a rock type like Rhydon but unlike Rhydon it can't actually switch into Kangaskan unless you get a really lucky burn on it. It can however switch into Cinc if you're willing to lose your boots but often times that's a really hard trade to make. And because of that rock typing its a fire type that you can't use as a grass resist because Thwacky and company just breaks it. Its a mon that tries to do so much but end up doing so little when you factor in you're also sacrificing HP on it to get rocks out, and you still get hard abused by mons like Rhydon. I'd personally nom this a lot lower but I know its a fan-favorite. But seriously this mons really not good outside terrain.
 
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5Dots

Chairs
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:Marowak: C -> UR
Marowak’s barren usage in ZU tournaments, reliance on Thick Club to be an attacker, and terrible speed feels that its role really hasn’t been established. Sure, it is one of the premier Trick Room attackers and can be an...okay Stealth Rock setter. However, i feel Knock Off is commonly seen by over half of the tier, and Marowak doesn’t have ways to patch up its speed tier or improve its special bulk. I feel that while it can warrant usage in a team slot, a lot of other wallbreakers can contribute more without relying on a Pokemon that has to walk on eggshells just to do its job.

:Butterfree: C+ -> B-
Butterfree on the other hand feels like it has improved with all the grasses running around. Its resistances force Pokemon like Thwackey and Tangela to either switch or die, which is valuable for it to start off a sleep powder/quiver dance. It can’t take hits well, but as an early-game lead as a sleeper, it’s excellent at incapacitating opponents like Garbodor or Uxie to prevent hazards from going up. Sure, Frosmoth will often be better for Ice Scales + better STAB options, but sleep is a really powerful niche few Pokemon can replicate.

:Throh: C ->B
Similarly, while Sawk and Gurdurr will usually be preferred over Throh, I feel like it functions as a neat midway between all of them. Throh mixes in Gurdurr’s role as a status absorber (which Sawk hates) while also not being too affected by Knock off (which Gurdurr hates). Storm Throw is another distinction since the guaranteed Crit chance essentially means that opponents trying to boost defenses with Work up or something won’t be very effective. Due to its great all-round bulk and blend of healthy qualities I find this set to what makes Throh in balance/stall:

[SET]
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Storm Throw
move 3: Knock Off
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Guts
nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

:Thwackey: A -> A+
I think it’s pretty clear that Thwackey is one of the faces in the tier. Besides being a star in Terrain teams, I think Toto has summarized its roles really nicely:
Choice band Thwackey is amazing right now, it just does it all. Need a rain check? Revenge killer? Wallbreaker? Late game sweeper? Pivot? Knock off? This monke has got you covered! The meta is very favourable for Thwackey currently as it checks both Silvally-Ground and rain (which should both be banned btw) whilst also fitting in nicely on the popular VoltTurn bulky offence playstyle. Grassy terrain is also a nice bonus for your teammates and can be paired well with mons such as Qwilfish, Garbodor and Coalossal to reduce their weakness to Earthquake whilst also providing passive recovery.
It’s only gotten better based on how threats like Rhydon Rotom and Manectric have become centerpieces of the tier. It’s also flexible in what item it wants to run, as Choice Band is quite a task to switch in (esp. with hazard support) without stuff like articuno, swords dance makes it even more threatending, and terrain Extender could let its teammates run opposing teams over.
 

viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
:ss/sandslash-alola:
Sandslash-Alola: New -> B+/A-
This thing looks pretty sweet. It's a decent counter to Grassy Terrain teams, resisting Grass, Psychic, Fairy, and Normal, along with competent bulk. STAB Steel-type moves can help it ruin the day of Alcremie (even if Alcremie is at +2, LO Iron Head does 40% minimum, so all it really needs is a couple of lucky flinches). It also provides powerful Ice-type moves (allowing it to 2HKO Tangela, among other things), as well as some Rapid Spin utility. It's not fantastic, namely because of mediocre Speed, but switching in can be difficult. It can also run Swords Dance if you already have some hazard removal, making it even scarier. Time will tell how good it turns out being, but first impressions look pretty solid.
with all due respect, and i do lowkey agree with you, it’s been only 60~ish minutes lmao lets hold our horses
 

wooper

heavy booty-doots
is a Forum Moderator
gonna try and keep this short so let's see how this goes.

i think :centiskorch: is deserving of a rise back into S rank. even before today's shifts, this mon has been a menace in the tier. it has very limited counterplay, with just a few checks in :altaria:, :articuno:, :coalossal:, :cramorant:, :ninetales:, :rapidash:, :silvally:-ground, :qwilfish:, and itself, and no counters that immediately come to mind (if im missing any, let me know!). losing :garbodor: hurt, as it was able to get chip with rocky helmet damage and stifle attempts at healing itself with leech life. it's an obscenely great wallbreaker with the guaranteed defense drop from fire lash, ability to recover with leech life, access to knock off, and strong coverage in power whip, all coming off of a whopping base 115 attack stat. it is even able to break for itself early game with knock off so that it can get the upper hand later. it can even run coil sets, turning it from an all-out attacking behemoth to a deadly wincon in the right matchups.

while its 4x weakness to stealth rocks, and thus its overreliance on heavy-duty boots, may seem like a hinderance, ive found that knocking off opposing :centiskorch: is very hard with the right team support (think :alcremie:, :jellicent:, :silvally: :uxie:), and even if you end up losing your boots, you arent fully at a loss just yet. it boasts some key resistances, namely to fighting and a 4x resist to grass, as well as an immunity to fire if running flash fire, which help it come in vs very common mons like :sawk: and :thwackey:, especially if they are choiced and scouted. even with a supbar base defense and being fully invested in attack and speed, it has a high enough base hp stat of 100 to be able to stomach a hit here and there, and if given the opportunity, can recover with leech life, as stated above.

overall, fighting against :centiskorch: gets very difficult at times because of its sheer power as a wallbreaker or setup sweeper, its utility in knock off spam, and useful resistances. youre almost always going to put in some sort of work with this mon on your team. it's definitely not the most centralizing mon in the tier, but in my opinion, it warrants a rise.
 
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Will start off with the mons we already had and then the drops.
1) :Ferroseed: A->A+ This mon was already pretty great and after these shifts, garb, one the best spiker was lost; arct and slash struggle against it(not enough damage by arct and too much recoil for slash); Thwack became better.
252+ Atk Life Orb Arctovish Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 79-95 (27 - 32.5%)
0 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arctovish: 93-111 (28.9 - 34.5%) +Lo+leech
252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash-Alola Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 108-132 (36.9 - 45.2%)
Now its def not the best answer to the two but def a nice one.

2) :Gurdurr: B+->A-/A Gurdurr's phy bulk + mach punch + guts are more than appreciated rn. Why? There's one less problem for it with departure of garb; the new threat drops; jelli has risen to beat the drops whose wisp is setup for gurdurr.
252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash-Alola Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 240 HP / 208+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 120-144 (32.3 - 38.8%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 292-348 (100.3 - 119.5%) 39 - 39% recovered
252 Atk Life Orb Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 240 HP / 208+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 156-185 (42 - 49.8%)
0 Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctovish: 168-200 (52.3 - 62.3%) 22.6 - 26.9% recovered
0 Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctovish: 92-110 (28.6 - 34.2%)
lo+rend mechanic against mach leads to winning.

3) :Jellicent: B->B+/A- Again, due to limited "couter"play to the drops this guy has enhanced a ton too. With sap(if you run it) jelli already checks mons like kanga and sawk. Overall with departure of garb I think it's a good and outstanding tank.

4) :Centiskorch: A+->S Was already hard to deal with and now we lost garb damn! Supa dupa limited switch ins that can be played around. I was already near to borderline S earlier and now I don't see any reason to not be one. Btw sexy wooper ninetales isn't a check. IN fact centiskorch counters it(with quite some damage).

drops in next post.
 
Sorry for being trigger-happy last time. Now, here’s my updated nom.
:ss/sandslash-alola:
Sandslash-Alola: New -> A-
This thing looks pretty sweet. It packs a lot of valuable resistances, including Grass, Psychic, Fairy, Normal, and more, along with competent bulk. STAB Steel-type moves can help it ruin the day of Alcremie (even if Alcremie is at +2, LO Iron Head does 40% minimum, so all it really needs is a couple of lucky flinches). Steel-typing also makes it immune to Toxic, which is really good against defensive teams. It also provides powerful Ice-type moves, allowing it to 2HKO Tangela (which is huge for a physical attacker), among other things, and it has some Rapid Spin utility, that it can also use to boost its Speed. To round things off, Earthquake allows it to deal with Steel and Fire types that could otherwise wall it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash-Alola Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 148-174 (44.3 - 52%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash-Alola Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Alcremie: 135-164 (40.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash-Alola Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal in Grassy Terrain: 172-203 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash-Alola Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arctovish: 156-185 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arctovish Fishious Rend (85 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 133-157 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Thwackey Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 232-276 (79.7 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+4 252 SpA Frosmoth Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sandslash-Alola: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 166-196 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Rapid Spin to boost Speed -> Attack)
+1 0 SpA Alcremie Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sandslash-Alola: 82-97 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
It can also run quite a few other options, including Swords Dance, Stealth Rock, Ice Shard, Triple Axel, Stone Edge, and Knock Off. My preferred set is Icicle Crash, Iron Head, Rapid Spin, and Earthquake, but it is good that there are other options available. Snowslash isn't fantastic, mainly because of mediocre Speed without at a Rapid Spin boost, but switching in can be difficult. Also, a quad-weakness to Fire and Fighting and a normal weakness to Ground aren’t great, but I don’t think it’s enough to keep it from being a solid mon. Overall, a reliable answer to Tangela and Double Dance Alcremie, Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock utility, good strength, great coverage, decent bulk, a lot of resistances, and good set variance make Alolan Sandslash a good addition to the ZU meta. Time will tell how good it turns out being, but first impressions look pretty solid.

Also here are some quick noms that have to do with the recent Grassy Seed ban. Yes I wrote these ahead of time, but there was already a 4/6 vote for the ban at the time.
:rapidash-galar: B -> B-
:thievul: A- -> B+
:swoobat: B -> C+/C
:drifblim:C+ -> C/C-
With Grassy Seed being banned, the effectiveness of these mons has decreased by a fair amount, as they can't use the item to help with their setup sets. At the very least, Rapidash-G has workable bulk, and also has a decent Swords Dance set with HorsePlay coverage that I talked about in my last post on it. Thievul is now pretty much limited to its Specs set, which is still very good, but not really good enough to be in the A ranks. Swoobat, however, is really frail, and isn't strong enough unboosted to threaten very much out, meaning it requires a lot of support to get its job done. I feel like it could be usable, but it's a lot harder to use now than it was when it could use Grassy Seed. Drifblim is a similar case: the biggest reason it rose to C+ is because of how effective it could be under Grassy Terrain, even though it had competition. Now, it's pretty much limited to Flare Boost, which can be annoying, especially with Strength Sap to heal itself from burn damage and hinder physical attackers, but even that is hampered by Drifblim's mediocre Speed, and it's also super frail.

Also, for all of these mons, they could be used on Electric Terrain, but that is a weaker playstyle overall. Mostly because of the reasons risin displays in the post below, but it also seems we have a lack of setters. Pinchurchin is a pretty mediocre mon, but is also the only real setter, due to it having Electric Surge. Pretty much every mon in the tier that can learn Electric Terrain seem really mediocre at best as setters, as they're either too frail, can't fit the move, or both. Not even risin's post on the NP thread (which he lists in his roast of me below) lists a single other setter. Compare this to Grassy Terrain, which could use Cottonee and even Grookey as backup setters. Also things like Coalossal can't benefit from the lessened Earthquake damage, that was mainly what I meant by fewer abusers; I just worded it really poorly. Hence, I feel like these mons deserve to drop.

Edit #50000: One more nom:
:ss/pincurchin: C- -> C+
This one's pretty obvious: with Grassy Terrain basically gone, Electric Terrain has a chance to rise to be a solid, if still worse alternative. Pincurchin is basically mandatory on ETerrain teams, due to Electric Surge. I don't think it should go above C+ though, as it's pretty bad outside of setting, with god awful speed (15 wtaf!?!?) and coverage. It can set Spikes I guess, and having recovery is nice, but even then mediocre bulk somewhat offsets that, and there are just better Spikers you can use. Still, it will be essential on Electric Terrain teams, so I think a rise is justifiable.

Edit #60000: :ninetales: I also believe that Ninetales should stay in B+. After building a team around it with 5gen, I've found it to be really solid. Given a chance to set up, it can be devastating and really hard to stop. Even if it can't set up, its decent strength and powerful moves can take a decent bite out of a good amount of the tier. Backing this up is good speed and decent special bulk, along with Flash Fire to switch into Fire-type moves. Rapidash isn't even a good counter, as High Horsepower can't OHKO, while +2 Scorching Sands can. Even a more defensively EV'd Dash will be 2HKO'd, and then HH does even less. I can agree that it's definitely not good enough for the A-ranks, but B+ is a very fair ranking imo. I can maybe see B, but I’m still leaning towards B+, and certainly not B-.

I still think Crustle should be C+ (my man kay knows how I feel), but clearly I haven’t convinced enough of the council (and for some reason Apa thinks it should be UR, which it’s clearly not lol) and I don’t have any new arguments, so I’ll wait until I do to make another nom.
 
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they could theoretically be used on Electric Terrain, but that is a significantly weaker playstyle, mainly because of the lower amount of abusers.
1) E Terrain is a weaker playstyle due to: a]Opposing gterrain teams messing + gglide b]Kinda hard to deal with grounds like pilo especially from turn1. However reason a probably wont be a big deal anymore tho and there are ways to deal with pilo including frostom and leading answer. So like yeah it's def not as good as gterrain teams but it's passsable enough imo.

2) Uh.... how does eterrain have "lower amount of abusers"? It has all gseed abusers + liligant + most electric types.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-zu-stage-5-2-grassy-seed-banned-68.3677885/post-8868677 check out this post where I have discussed quite a lot about eterrain amongst other things. I always said that eterrain is underrated and while its worse gterrain its good enough to pick up after gseed ban.
 
Hello you all magnificent human. It has been a while since I've posted on a forum, but since im playing more lately, I feel ready to express my opinion here about one pokemon.
Sableye : C to B/B-
You all are criminally underestimating Sableye right now. Its access to priority will-o-wisp, taunt and recover with a decent bulk if invested and a very good typing makes it nice to play. It can taunt noms such as audino or miltank, which stops them from using moves such as Heal Bell, or even stop setups from id cofagrigus or dubwool, which is left completely harmless. it can tanks pretty much all attack of silv-ground if it burns it first, and once it did, it can taunt it and either stall it or switch to a more offensive pokemon. Sableye is also a decent wall to sawk, or any physcial wallbreaker/sweeper which, again, can't do a lot to start with, even less burned. Though it cannot stop centiskorch. I have yet to see a better pokemon then Sableye in its category, maybe Persian-A, but its single-type dark and not having access to recover or other fast healing move makes it, imo, not really better. Though Persian-A does have access to parting shot or u-turn. the single fairy weakness of sableye, which isnt that common in the tier other then alcremie, makes it really hard to kill. Pair it with noms such as audino who can tank and wall decently alcremie (even better if you taunted alcremie with sableye first), and it will do a very good defensive core. Even spdef uxie can do the job.
Although, like I said, I acknowledge the competition with persian-a, I truly think sableye has a place in the current metagame. And it being kinda underplayed (behind dusknoir in usage notably) doesn't helps its cause.
Like some of you know, I like playing with underplayed/dogshet pokemon to see if i'll find a hidden gem somewhere, someday. Well I found one.
Thats all I had to say.
Feel free to disagree or anything. I know a lot of you have yet to try it, so that's why I wrote this here.
 
Sableye : C to B/B-
You all are criminally underestimating Sableye right now.
uh... its like saying we are underestimating and underrating licki. I would like to first mention that I don't speak theoretically but also by in practice experience. Its a big hindrance to offense and stall so was the fav mon for me and hitmon to spam in dec, also why I continued to retest it in different metas. Every time I used it its performance was continuously hindered by dark types that completely shut it down. You say you have got team support but the point is that every time you switch out sab the dark types heavy chip, which over the course of game makes it easier for opponent to sweep. Even dark vally is now rising slowly. Then you say alc is the only fairy but tbh its one of the best mons in the tier so obviously pretty common and with sab you are giving it a perfectly safe setup opportunity. Besides due to tang mostly, mixed breakers are now being used more.

All in all its just about how the VR works. You see, C tier is for mons that have niche roles and irrespective of how well they do against their targeted mons they are easily and frequently walled or naturally countered.
Apart from that there is also the fact that best way to overcome these shortcomings of sab is to pair it with one of our two fairies which has 2 problems
1) skun still laughs
2) there aren't much ways to complete the team with that core considering how much has to be prepared for. This trait is definitely not of a B tier mon.

Due to the above reasons I believe sab is well placed in C.
 

viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
:sandslash-alola: to A- or A
alolan sandslash has a hell of a lot of utility, as i’ve said plenty of times before. i think its defensive sets are extremely versatile, due to its access to so many different moves (spikes, rocks, knock, spin, etc). under hail, its swords dance threat is extremely potent, but it’s even good outside of that context. since it can soak up physical attacks well & has a lot of resistances, sandslash is good at getting boosts off. i talk more about alolan sandslash in my metagame post, but overall aloslash is a really interesting and entertaining threat in the meta.
:arctovish: to B+
arctovish isn’t the broken threat i thought it was, but it still has ways of working around its low speed. icy wind is a rather interesting tech (credit to beauts), even if it’s not super conventional. of course though, arctovish is a demon under hail. it can be revenge killer easily, but it’s near guaranteed to get a KO once it has its opportunity. whether that’s through hail, slowing down an opponent, or just being faster than an already slow opponent, arctovish finds its ways.
:silvally-poison: (Poison) to B+ or A-
with garbodor’s absence, silv-poison gets a bit more of a niche as a defensive poison type. its defensive defog set can consistently do decently against centiskorch, due to its access to twave/parting shot alongside a good amount of bulk and a good defensive typing. i also like swords dance sets in this meta right now ~ immunities + resistances to its poison type multi attack can’t do much against flame charge or other coverage moves.
:centiskorch: to S
centiskorch has been getting ban talks right now, and while it’s not universally agreed upon, i think a ban is warranted. it’s nearly impossible to properly switch into on a consistent basis, and this pokémon has a shocking amount of longevity due to its natural bulk, usage of boots, and its recovery move. it’s still going to be easy to revenge kill, but that’s nothing a little team support can’t fix. centiskorch technically isn’t as broken as other banned pokémon, but i think it’s a centralizing threat whose presence only increased with these shifts.
:tangela: and :kangaskhan: to A+
i mainly want to establish that centi is in a tier of its own right now.
:cramorant: to A-
i think cram is a really nice defog user, as it has decent enough bulk and the fantastic gulp missile. its defensive typing also allows it to reliably switch into a lot of attacks, even if it doesn’t like electric attacks one bit. even if it has its flaws, i view cram as one of the premier defog users in the tier. if you’re not properly prepared for it, cram can annoy a team a lot. even if you are prepared, cram always has the threat of gulp missile.
Grassy Terrain Sweepers to lower ranks
this is a given due to the ban of grassy seed. not much to explain here
 
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viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
:aurorus: to C+ or C
aurorus feels really out of place in this meta, especially alongside the b tiers that have legitimate upside. aurorus can be a strong breaker, but its lack of defensive utility alongside its lack of speed makes it extremely hard to fit on many teams. i seriously haven’t seen a single great team with aurorus on it ever since snow warning was banned. it still has some potential, as it can be hard to switch into stab ice voice, as well as power herb meteor beam, but it seems like such an awkward fit on so many team archetypes.

:throh: to C+ or B-
i think throh can work as a fantastic physical wall. with 240 hp and 92+ defense, it takes a maximum 96% from switching into a knock off into 2 fire lashes from centiskorch. it can also live two, potentially three, multi attacks from silv-ground. i think rest with chesto berry, and fitting stone edge alongside knock and circle throw can help it be a great mixed wall to counter key threats in the meta. alternatively, it can run max defense to make it hard counter centiskorch.

252+ Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Throh: 211-250 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. -1 240 HP / 92+ Def Throh: 186-220 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

even once centi’s banned, throh has its niche that makes putting it at c rank disrespectful. unlike gurdurr, who gives it lots of competition, it’s an amazing knock absorber that doesn’t fear losing its item. it also boasts better special defense, giving it the chance of being a special wall rather than a physical one.
 

5Dots

Chairs
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
So I got around testing some URs around throughout, and I’ve come up with some thoughts:

:Unfezant: UR -> C- I actually like using this a lot as a decently fast pivot/breaker thanks to its critical hit-happy nature. It can be really annoying for slower teams as it will often break past Pokemon that rely on defense boosts/grass types like tang. Just has a bit of a 4MSS - Brave Bird is absolutely necessary for STAB, U-Turn’s important to pivot, and either Night Slash/Quick Attack/Roost/even Facade can round it off. Positive matchups against Alcremie, outspending Kanga, and being having decent abilities in Super Luck or Big Pecks gives this pidgeon a small, yet meaningful place in the centipede meta.

:Metang: UR -> C- Metang feels okay on stall builds as it provides some backbone as a stealth rocker that has good coverage and good MUs against common defoggers like Articuno and Altaria. I don’t like how embarrassingly weak a defensive set is, though, especially against Pokémon like Qwilfish and Wishiwashi. My biggest gripe is how the Psychic typing messes things up: it provides the neutrality to fighting, but fighters can still beat it anyway and adds 3 additional weaknesses. It also shares the fire weakness as well, which complicates builds.

:Carbink: :Beheeyem: :Cursola: UR -> D (UR) Trick Room is really hard to use with all the priority, status, and entry hazards running around. This is especially true given how prominent kangaskhan currently sits here. However, against teams that rely on speed or weather, the archetype does...okay at disrupting the game plans? Carbink does its job as a suicide stealth rock + trick room lead decently, and can surprise normals looking to wall it with body press. Meteor Beam Cursola might face competition with Aurorus but the highest special attack in the tier is not something to underestimate. In case sweepers like silvally ground grow out of control, Perish Body can be a decent last ditch option to prevent things from outright ending on the spot.
Beheeyem is annoying on stall teams - Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Psychic, Shadow Ball backed by Analytic can really screw around with the Pyukumuku/Tangela cores running around. Outside of TR it could also operate as a okay future sight pivot with teleport. Its future sight hits like a truck against non-resists, though its meh defensive stats prevent it from firing many off.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1373231066-ryagvwstisyarou6w6al4aubofa5a0bpw
A decent showing where each team member got to play a role - Beeheyem performed amicably as a late-game cleaner, Cursola did its work as a mid-game wallbreaker, Carbink set up TR multiple times throughout the game to provide momentum, and even Flareon fulfilled its job at soft checking Klinklang.
:Musharna: UR -> D (UR)
This is really tanky, easily one of the best fighting counters and can serve as a decent fat wincon when the Centiskorch is gone. Outside of this I‘d feel I’d use Alcremie 92 times out of 100 because of better typing + more diversity in sets + being more aggressive throughout a game to game basis, not to mention alcremie also checks fighting types in a similar way. I find Musharna to be really hard to fit on teams because of this.

:Electivire: UR -> C-
I really didn’t like using this. Theoretically, it has a wide variety of sets that are usable, like life orb, expert belt, or choice band, and awesome coverage options, but this yeti has among the worst of set and moveslot syndromes I’ve ever seen. It wants Wild Charge, Volt Switch, Ice Punch, Flamethrower, Cross Chop, and Darkest Lariat, and the aforementioned items just to be a strong wallbreaker. I feel that it can still earn a place against stall teams with its coverage options and maybe on webs teams to justify its wonky speed stat, but it‘s trying too hard as a mixed attacker.
:Beartic: UR -> D (UR)
Having access to Taunt + Swords dance can help against Pyukumuku and stall, but I think the extra weaknesses in the hail archetype is detrimental. Sure, it brings off a high attack stat, but I think it doesn’t hit hard enough against walls like Tangela, A-Persian, and Gurdurr to be worth justifying. It still will get outpaced by scarfers like manectric and sawk, which makes it even harder to justify bringing it over to a team. When hail stops, Beartic is just another attacker that gets easily revenge killed by any offensive threat with at least some speed investment. Not to mention a stealth rock weakness and having the worst defensive typing in the entire game, and it’s not very bulky either.
:Pawniard: UR -> C
Webs are starting to get more usage, and with Defiant, it is one of the better abusers of the tier. A superb matchup against Articuno and Altaria and good STAB options, there is warranted use for this piece. A +2 Sucker Punch is not something to underestimate, and with Centi anticipated to be banned, I’m confident this Pokemon will see more usage.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1380216421-36dlbvood4xgp4bpv10mfhj0eofpuqypw
The replay displays how items do not particularly affect its performance significantly - in fact, the extra speed gives it just what it needs to securely defeat Frosmoth.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1378758570-zu50um8awx4fqjn89o66jsqfofcmahvpw
Pawniard performs the role of a wallbreaker and late-game cleaner quite well - it can reliably serve as a one/two-time switch-in to Gourgeist-Small’s STABs, and takes advantage of the opponent’s lack of defensive responses + ability to clean well with its priority + dual STABS, even without webs.

:Roselia: UR -> D (UR)
This feels really close to good. Neat tech in natural cure rest, decent 100 sp attack, and a better defensive typing than Tangela seems viable at first, but the low physical bulk (and meh bulk in general) just feels underwhelming in a tier dominant by strong physical attackers and hazards. It could pull off being a more offensive Tangela, but Tangela also has that same stat while being much more reliable defensively. Roselia feels like it could get better without Centi in the picture, but for now it’s a bad spiker that loses to a lot of common foes.

:Combusken: UR -> D (UR)
No Z-Moves, being outpaced at +1 by a lot of Pokemon in general, lackluster power even after a swords dance...it’s just not worth using over other fire types. It could potentially act as a deadly wincon, but needing extra turns to activate speed boost is a deterrent for me.
:Regigigas: :Regice: :Orbeetle: :Armaldo: :Dusknoir: :Dubwool: UR -> Please Stop using them (UR)
These are all outclassed by at least two Pokemon, their power is just underwhelming and they’re very easy to check/counter. They don’t pose as immediate threats and they’re gimmicks that are there purely by surprise.
 
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Jett

gn gobodachis
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(Hate using big sprites for noms but Silvally moment)
Rise of the Silvallies

:ss/silvally-dark: B -> A-/A

Silvally-Dark was honestly the Pokemon I was most impressed with during my Centiskorch reqs run, given how far it had dropped in the previous months and with other Silvallies on the rise taking the spotlight. Definitely benefitted from the departure of Silvally-Ghost and to some extent Garbodor as well. It sort of reminds me of a budget Silvally-Dragon, budget because it has to find ways of dealing with Fighting-types and certain opposing Dark-types (it'll honestly just U-turn out against these if it can and only Gurdurr realistically can counter it long-term which isn't that common), but it serves as a reminder that our common Fairy-types are still not really sufficient answers to the Silvally types they resist since they have access to Iron Head. In general, it's just very threatening setup sweeper and pivot, which has a unique typing that helps it check Ghost-types like Rotom, Jellicent, and Gourgeist-Small (incredible Silvally-Ground check btw) which are all great Pokemon at the moment, some even being on the rise.

+2 252 Atk Silvally-Dark Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alcremie: 244-288 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Dark Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Alcremie: 354-418 (105.9 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Alcremie Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 194-230 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Silvally-Dark Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 334-394 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 140-168 (42.2 - 50.7%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

:ss/silvally-poison: B -> B+
:ss/silvally-electric: UR -> C

Both of these Pokemon have been nommed already, but I agree with both. Silvallies have honestly been quite troublesome to check in general, with most teams focussing a lot of their attention on checking the best Silvally (Ground). Poison takes advantage of this as Grass-types, like Tangela, and use it as either setup fodder or just use the turn to get a free hit off. Benefits a lot from Garbodor leaving not only as this is one less offensive check but it can also fulfil defensive duties/utility roles. Amazing coverage with Flamethrower and Grass Pledge to hit Steel-types like Alolan Sandslash and Ground-types Rhydon make it annoying to play around. Toxic immunity is also super nice since a lot more Pokemon seem to running the move as their filler recently.

While Silvally-Electric definitely suffers from a lot more competition whether it be from other Silvallies or other Electric-types like Rotom or Manectric, it does have better means of breaking past walls due to its better coverage. As an off meta niche mixed wallbreaker, I think it ultimately deserves to be ranked in the same area as all the other Pokemon that need dedicated teams around them to justify their position on the team in the first place.
 
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viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
:centiskorch: IS GONE
925118FF-7CCC-45BD-8921-AEF155212B8A.jpeg

anyways
:rapidash: up to A+
with centiskorch gone, rapidash takes its place as the premier fire type of the metagame. with its fantastic mix of both defensive utility and offensive firepower, rapidash fits on basically every team. balance and stall teams love its longevity w/ its fire immunity, recovery, and easy access to toxic/wisp. offensive teams love its swords dance-boosted flare blitz, alongside coverage moves in high horsepower and/or wild charge tearing through many walls. most importantly, its fantastic speed tier lets it set the tone in its matchups, as it outpaces nearly every unboosted threat in the game.
:frosmoth: down to B+
frosmoth can still sweep teams if left unchecked, however, it feels more and more difficult to fit frosmoth on teams. with the rise of fantastic ice types like jynx, articuno, and rotom-frost, there’s quite fierce competition. rotom-frost and articuno have quite the versatility, making them easy to fit onto teams. articuno has the added bonus of being a great defensive stalwart. in contrast, frosmoth’s low speed for a sweeper, as well as its obviously frail physical bulk, often makes it too demanding of team support. jynx is similarly needy, but its overwhelming immediate power is complemented by a much better speed tier, making it more consistently rewarding. frosmoth is still a terrifying sweeper when properly used, but it’s not the metagame staple that it once was.
low tier noms
:silvally: down to B-

out of the pokémon in b tier, regular silvally kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. it definitely has some utility as a scarfer, but it seems too difficult to fit on teams due to the presence of kangaskhan and its fellow silvally forms. i’ve seen a rise in silvally ground, dark, and poison, but not normal.
:crustle: up to C+
c tier is filled with a lot of rather bad pokémon that debatably could be unranked entirely, but crustle is far from that. as a stealth rock setter, although rhydon is better, its coverage and bulk makes it able to scare hazard removers. it can also have shell smash thrown into its hazard set to make it terrify opposing defog users. as a shell smash breaker, it’s not amazing, but stab stone edge and x scissor give it threatening coverage with earthquake. it’s not a great pick, but it feels like a step above c tier threats like boltund and hattrem (who have rather minimal novelties to them).
agreements/disagreements:
silvally-dark up to B+ ~ agree
making a D tier ~ strongly disagree
 
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S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
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Mega Super Ultra Gigas VR Update (Still No Regi): Check votes here.

The descriptions below are written by myself and only express the general idea behind the changes that I'm aggregating.
:alcremie: A > A+: The best defensive sweeper with variability and inconsistent counterplay; the lack of Centiskorch means there's one less counter for it.
:gourgeist-small: A- > A: Phenomenal for offensively checking Silvally-Ground, and the popularity of mixed sets to target Tangela makes it harder to switch into.
:rhydon: A- > A: Really great rocker, completes a ton of defensive cores, and is a mandatory Ground-type to check Volt Switch, especially if you want to fit a different Silvally forme. Spoiler alert: a lot Silvally formes rose this update!
:gurdurr: B+ > A-: The tier shift + ban were all perks for Gurdurr.
:jynx: B+ > A-: This thing rose from a lowly C rank to one of the most notable special breakers / sweepers in the meta. Tuthur even thinks its A+ for some godforsaken reason. Wow! For real, the Water immunity, rare offensive typing, and competitive Speed are undeniably huge pros for it.
:miltank: B+ > A: A big leap, this cow is really milking the Centi ban and rise of offensive Ghost- and Grass-types.
:jellicent: B > A-: Alolan Sandslash became the partner it needed to be a relevant A-rank wall, making it arguably the best for the spinblocking niche too.
:klinklang: B > B+: Shift Gear sweeps are happening more often now that the meta favors it, Sub Toxic sets are working, and it finds a home on bulkier / stallier teams as a wincon with great setup opportunities thanks to its defensive typing.
:silvally: (Dark) B > A-: Bonafide offensive threat, little switches in, great neutral matchups to abuse the raw power of Multi-Attack and Silvally bulk / Speed.
:silvally: (Poison) B > B+: Great defensive typing with unique coverage to patch holes on your team.
:Malamar: B- > B: While a little fishy, Malamar is capable of sweeping unprepared teams after its checks are worn down / it's in on the right wall.
:morpeko: B- > B: CB sets clean very well and wear down opposing Ground-, Grass-, and Electric-types no problem because a lot are neutral to if not weak to Dark.
:cradily: C > C+:No Centi, relevant Water immunity.
:crustle: C > C+: HO teams are enjoying more as a lead or even late-game cleaner.
:Throh: C > C+: Basically rising for the same reason Gurdurr is.
:pincurchin: C- > C: Gseed ban!
:palpitoad: S+++++++++++++: You don't need me to tell you why.
:arctovish: B: Super fishy when Water immunities are everywhere and very good, hail teams are mediocre.
:sandslash-alola: A: Premier special wall and hazard mon, even has decent offensive traits / sets.
:silvally: (Electric) B-: Off-meta pros with perfect coverage, great for patching offensive holes and punishing anything coming your way thanks again to the coverage options.
:silvally: (Flying) C+: Flying is a great offensive typing and the Silvally forme hits a lot harder than say Rotom-S does so there's little to no competition for an offensive Flying-type.
:raichu: C: Electric terrain + unique Speed and coverage for an Electric-type.
:shiinotic: C-: Defensively, the Fairy typing is enough to give it a niche over Tangela sometimes.
:silvally: (Grass) C: Unique coverage to take advantage of some shared Grass and Silvally checks that the meta usually preps for.
:beartic: :carbink: C, C-: Hail mons are in the tier and these two are sometimes on hail teams as a sweeper / setter.
:gourgeist:(Super) C: An OK Grass wall if you need the Ghost-typing to help check Normal-types.
:bellossom:C-: Seeing tour success so its not unviable per say.
:silvally: (Fighting) C: Unique from other Fighting-types thanks to its Speed, pivoting, and coverage.
:kangaskhan: :tangela: S > A+: The metagame has adapted heavily to combat these former S ranks and their checks, counters, and lures are prevalent enough to see them more on par with A+ rather than a step above. Some of us still see Tangela as S, though.
:uxie: A+ > A: Not as effective or as splashable like in prior metas. There's clear competition as far as rockers go, but it's still likely the best slot for VoltTurn teams.
:ferroseed: A > A-: Alolan Sandslash came and took its slot for general purposes.
:persian-alola: A > A-: Less popular, harder to build around, all-around awkward to fit.
:skuntank: A > A-: More viable competition, meta favors it less as a stallbreaker.
:altaria: A- > B+: We lost Centi, we lost a reason to use Alti!
:manectric: A- > B+: The predictability makes it hard to play; having to Switcheroo Rhydon for meaningful progress in that matchup is tough as well.
:shiftry: A- > B+: Unreliable thanks to its frailty and the fact that so many teams rely on the defensive pros of a Grass-type in this meta; see Gourg-Small for example.
:thievul: A- > B+: More defensive Fairy- and Fighting-types are being used and spamming Dark Pulse isn't as effective.
:appletun: B+ > B: Way more Ice-types in the meta like Alolan Sandslash and it's just short of being a reliable counter to Fire-types.
:basculin: B+ > B: Water immunities are a plenty. Clicking with Basc isn't easy nor always rewarding.
:coalossal: B+ > B: Goodbye Centi, hello Fire-types that run Ground-type coverage haha...
:cramorant: B+ > B: Its lackluster stats don't cut it, and there's better Water-types for the slot.
:flapple: B+ > B: Flapple teams risk a lot due to Hustle, so the end up being just average. Also, why not use a more reliable wallbreaker?
:aurorus: B > B-: Ice-types are everywhere in this meta so it's harder to fit and justify Aurorus outside of some niche offensive roles. The rise of Gurdurr doesn't help either.
:kabutops: B > B-: Rain and scarf sets aren't as relevant, better options, Poli + Gurdurr usage hurts.
:rapidash galar: B > C: Gseed ban.
:silvally: (Normal) B > B-: Opportunity cost of other offensive Normal-types and Silvally-formes.
:stunfisk: B > B-: There's better Ground-types, but Ground-types are still pretty good.
:swoobat: B > C: Gseed ban!
:trevenant: B > C+: See above + more competition for it on teams outside of Gterrain.
:Butterfree: C+ > C: czim "Slash, Cuno...."
:drifblim: C+ > C: Gseed ban!
:ludicolo: C+ > C: Rain teams aren't that great, and Ludi is barely used.
:runerigus: C+ > C: Too much competition as a Ground- and Ghost-type, creates bad teambuilding weaknesses.
:bouffalant: :Carracosta: C > C-: No one is using these two, they barely have niches as sweepers but they're anti-meta enough to note.
:hattrem: C > C-: We have ample hazard removers, we don't need to use an NFE anymore.
:marowak: C > C- Why waste your Ground-type on a too-slow too-frail breaker...?
:stonjourner: C > UR: Bad Lycanroc lol!
:vibrava: C- > UR: It's only S rank in NU.
Discussion Points:
  • No new S ranks, unless you accept Palpitoad as the tier's supreme overload. Would something like Rotom or Silvally-Ground deserve the spot, or should have Kangaskhan or Tangela never dropped?
  • If Tangela is the A+ tier physical wall, should there be an A+ special wall? Articuno or Alolan Sandslash? Or neither because they're not on Tangela's level?
  • While some URs didnt make it this round, we still have a huge C rank. Should it be trimmed, some mons up or down? A good question is what to do with the terrain abusers and if Pincurchin and co could be any higher.
 
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Lazy data viz inbound. I intended to stitch these together as a .GIF, but my machine is having some performance issues I don't care to troubleshoot right now. Anyways, I took the liberty of going through and identifying the ZU Council's lowest rank and highest rank for each Pokemon on the VR slate. Pokemon are plotted based on their final rank, and the error line basically indicates how split the Council was on a Pokemon. The plot goes in alphabetical order from left to right.

Take, for example, Alcremie and Articuno in the first plot. Alcremie has no line, which means that every single Council member thought it was A+, whereas Articuno's line stretches from A+ to A-, indicating that at least one council member thought it was A+ and at least one council member thought it was A-. Hope these are somewhat useful and apologies that all the info isn't all on one graph. Putting all the Pokemon on a single, static plot made it tough to read and I'm too lazy to troubleshoot the performance issues preventing me from executing a fix. If you notice any errors in my tallying, please let me know.

Zu-new-viability-rankings-AL1.png


Zu-new-viability-rankings-MZ.png
 
YES! FINALLY!!!

As usual, great work to council on the VR update. This was the biggest shift since the Crown Tundra drops, and I'm almost surprised that this wasn't the start of a v3 VR (though with Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl coming out in a few months that’s still not entirely off the table). Mostly looks good at first glance. I just have one problem off the top of my head.
:ss/rapidash-galar:
Rapidash-Galar: C -> C+
Galarian Rapidash is definitely not as good as it was when Grassy Seed was still allowed. However, I think dropping it all the way to C was a bit much. I still stand my opinion that Swords Dance is an underrated set for it. You can read up on it on my last post here, but I'll restate my argument here. HorsePlay (Fairy and Ground) is one of the best offensive type combos in the game. There are only 6 Pokemon in the tier that resist both types, and only one of them is viable, that being Golbat. The other five (Bronzor, Fletchinder, Gastly, Koffing, and Zubat) are memes. Backing this up is good stats, with 100 Attack and 105 Speed (the former allowing it to deal decent damage even unboosted). To top it off, it can run Morning Sun to use on a switch or predicted weak move, allowing it to heal off damage. And while this set is generally outclassed by Kantonian Rapidash, there are still benefits that GDash has that make it worth considering. The big one is an immunity to being poisoned, which is a GODSEND against defensive teams, hazard stack, and other Pokemon that rely on or can otherwise use moves that are capable of poisoning. In addition, Galar can run Life Orb more easily than Kanto can, because a) it's not weak to Stealth Rock, and b) its moves don't do additional recoil damage. This can help make up for the generally lower base power of Galar's moves, and LO’s recoil is not really a terrible issue because of Morning Sun. In addition, Centiskorch leaving is really good for it, as Centi was one of the most consistent ways to check it. GDash also appreciates some recent meta changes like the rise of Malamar and Darkvally, and the drop of Ferroseed. Seriously council, please try SD GDash, it's nowhere near as bad as you think. Especially compared to Palpitoad, please stfu czim. PS stands for Palpitoad Sucks.

And all of this hasn't even mentioned its Calm Mind set. On its own, it's actually not intolerable, as after one Calm Mind, Stored Power has a not terrible 90 Power (at +1), while also giving GDash decent special bulk. It also has a decent coverage option in Mystical Fire. However, it can also be really scary on Electric Terrain teams, which aren't great right now, but with Grassy Terrain now basically gone, Electric Terrain has a chance to grow. Using Electric Seed, you get a free 30 extra BP for Stored Power (not 20 because STAB) and better Defense. So yes, all-in-all, I can see why Galarian Rapidash fell considerably in the new update. It definitely has flaws, namely mediocre bulk, and Kantonian Dash is better for SD sets overall. But I think C is too harsh, and it is definitely NOT limited to Electric Terrain only; there are still reasons to pick SD GDash over SD KDash on some teams, so it's not completely outclassed. As such, I feel C+ is a better representation of Galarian Rapidash's abilities.

P.S: Jett: "Please blacklist [Palpitoad] from VR discussions ty"
Yes. (someone should've changed their "vote" to "S hit")

Also first nom, and I have a Super Horn. Also also yes I wrote most of this like a day ahead of time but I don't care dropping GDash to C is a crime.
 
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As always, the council has done an amazing job, I agree with nearly everything :blobwizard:
Do wanna give my thoughts on some stuff tho

No new S ranks, unless you accept Palpitoad as the tier's supreme overload. Would something like Rotom or Silvally-Ground deserve the spot, or should have Kangaskhan or Tangela never dropped
I propose we start :Marshtomp: propoganda instead, it's cuter and has actual arms :)
I don't think :Rotom: or :Silvally: G deserve S. Don't get me wrong, the're super good, but S is meant to be for absolutely-out-of-this-world-good mons. I would actually argue, that an S- rank should be created, and :Rotom: should be kept there along with *drumroll* :Tangela: (I'll explain why later)
Groundvally, imo, is super good, but still not s or s- material. Being walled by one of the absolute best pokemon in the tier is already a hinderance, not to mention it actually didn't like :Centiskorch: being banned, because it preyed on common centi checks like :Qwilfish:, and appreciated Centi taking on ices. Ofc , Groundvally can run mix ice beam, but then it gives up momentum, which is kinda big. It's low-key pick your poison, either be walled by something you'll see on like every second team, or prey on that exact thing but give up a move as good as U-Turn. It also lacks the speed for some threats like Ninetales. If I don't procrastinate too hard I'll write about it in the metagame discussion thread. Now onto :Tangela:. Imo it's the face of zu, the catch all physical wall, capable of walling the scariest Pokemon around. It's a big reason why :Kangaskhan: fell of a bit, and stuff like Groundvally haven't straight up been banned. Centi was one of the few physical attackers it feared but now no more. If it was just a passive wall and nothing else, it would have been good but not super duper good (see - :Audino:) but Tang is actually pretty hard to switch into as well. If you can take its stab giga drain, chances are, you can't take sludge bomb (see - grasses like opposing :Tangela:) or are crippled by its poison rate(see - :Gourgeist:) If you can take both, you can't take knock off, it would likely cripple you by knocking your boots, (see - :Altaria:). If, by some miracle, you can take them all, (see - Poison :Silvally: or :Skuntank:), go to sleep, sweet dreams ;). Only stuff like Sap Sipper :Miltank: can take it on, but it prefers running Thick fat so :/ (there might be a couple switch ins I've missed)
So that's why, imo, it should be s-, with :Rotom:. As to why the latter, it's simply stupid good. One of the two offensive mons that can switch into Groundvally, alongside Gourgiest. Rotom is a bonafide threat as well. :Choice Scarf: lets it revenge nearly everything, :Choice Specs: dents the entire tier, and wisp Hex offensive utility is just out of this world good. It also makes the most out of its 3 immunities, 2 of them being very important.
tldr , :Rotom: and :Tangela: to S-
And Groundvally same as it is

Have a good day :blobuwu:
 

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