Resource SS ZU Viability Rankings v2 - Update @236

[viet noa]

C-rank cleaning!

C+ -> C, Steel-types got more prominent, which are a pain for it. Also it struggles with other rising threats like Malamar and somewhat Aurorus.
C+ -> C, idk why it is so far from Carbink, the other Hail setter and Beartic the hail abuser. idt the specially defensive set is good enough to keep it so high, even articuno which is its biggest competitor struggles in the current metagame.
C -> UR, this mon is complete garbage. It is impossible to fit in teams, it has a terrible typing, is heavily outclassed by other special attackers, and whenever people try to use it in tours it loses.
C -> UR, Specs is weak (can't break any special sponge lol), mostly outclassed by Arctovish, and weak to Stealth Rock. It just needs to much support to be worth using.
C- -> UR, complete garbage that shouldn't have been ranked, it doesn't even check well rotom and skuntank is bad anw.
C- -> UR, every team has at least 2 grass resists, this mon just needs to much support.

I know those two just rose on VR but they are pure garbage. Electric terrain as a whole doesn't deserve more than C- and Shiinotic is just terrible.

C+ -> B+, can we acknowledge Ivy is the goat and sun is great? Shiftry is already in B+ and sees almost 0 usage outside of sun, its partner in crime, Ivygoat, deserves the same rank.
B -> B+, ditto. Sun is B+, Liepard is mandatory on sun.
C- -> C, put it with beartic plz.

edit: -> A, this mon is wonderful and it is being spammed recently because it is an incredible spinner and rotom and rhydon check. Most of what I said last time I nommed it up still stands. Long live to the Goss.

some interesting takes here; thought it'd be fun to start a conversation about some of these takes.


Shiinotic: C to C+ (or higher!)
I was a Shiinotic doubter for a bit, but I've come around to this Pokémon quite a bit. With a unique defensive typing alongside a solid moveset, Shiinotic carves a respectable niche as a physical wall. In particular, it's one of the best Knock Off absorbers in the game. Being able to completely wall physical breakers (and Knock spammers) of the likes of Sawk, Cinccino, and Thwackey, is nothing to sleep on. These Pokémon simply can't U-Turn in its face, either, unless they want to suffer RH damage and risk a chance of status. Besides walling some prominent breakers, Shiinotic also abuses certain passive mons. Its coverage allows it to take advantage of particularly popular defesive sponges in this current meta, like Throh, Wishiwashi, and Rhydon. Spamming a 100% accurate Sleep move is also a blessing, since it enables setup sweepers like Silvally-Dark and Jynx really nicely. And don't even get me started on Strengh Sap.


Ivysaur: C+ to B
I completely agree that Ivysaur should rise, although I'd put it below Shiftry because I still like Shiftry outside of Sun. Nevertheless, Ivysaur has quietly become the star of the show on Sun teams, because its bulk makes it easiest out of any Sun sweeper to set up stat boosts. Sun will also be a big MU fish, but it's had a valid place in the meta for a while now. Thus, with Ivysaur's strong influence on this team style's success, I think it's about time we give Ivysaur its flowers.

Other Notes:
to A- or A: My OU friend made a ZU team with Eldegoss several months ago, and I always wondered why it would do surprisingly well whenever we played ZU against each other. Now we know why.
to B+: Sun setting is nice and all, but Banded Copycat is one the coolest things in ZU.
to UR: I've seen some people experiment and do OK with EPack Leaf Storm + Future Sight, so I wouldn't put it in UR just yet. I agree with the rest of your UR noms though.

 

[Corthius]

C+ --> B- (or even B?? even tho that is a little high, even for me)

sets

#1 (Unfezant) @ Choice Band
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Night Slash / Giga Impact / Facade
- Quick Attack

Silvally Water (Silvally-Flying) @ Flying Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 172 Atk / 84 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flame Charge
- Surf
- Multi-Attack
On ladder, people will actually fall so easily for the name change since it actually looks more like Silvally-Water is (imo) supposed to which is super funny and kind of an asshole move but w/e; everything for ELO!!!
The SpA EVs allow you to 2HKO max SpD Coalossal and Rhydon with Surf. The loss in Atk EVs is not too big and you don't miss out on any notable OHKOs (correct me if I am wrong).

I love birdspam and saw Tuthur (iirc) using Unfezant which made me realize I can use super strong Brave Bird + coverage monster allrounder Silvally-Flying for some nasty offense. Both have their benefits and drawbacks but synergize really well together. Silvally e.g. is really good at breaking common defensive Rock types like Coalossal and Rhydon with Surf and cleaning lategame with Flame Charge + Swords Dance (like Silvallys do), while Unfezant can use its other STAB moves (I used Facade and Giga Impact, both having different niches) and coverage versus other Flying resists like Stunfisk and Rotom. Unfezant also provides a useful ghost immunity and grass resistance, making it a fine check to Gourgeist-Small/Super and versus choice-locked Rotom.
Ofc they still struggle versus some of the best pokemon in the tier like Rotom, Rhydon and Sandslash-Alola, but they fill their niche enough for me to believe they are worth of being put in the same subrank as Silvally-Electric (literally have not seen this mon ever, what does it even do with Stunfisk rising in usage).

Ty for reading, encouraging everyone to post their thoughts on the VR!

 

[SpaceGirl]

C+ --> B- (or even B??

highly support this nom!!! I was interested in trying these out so i made a team and have been having decent success with it, although its not the best team,i got a really funny game where the game ended in 10 turns with Unfezant and Flyingvally each getting 3 kills like damn
bird up
i'll make noms in a couple days just wanted to show the game :p

 

[czim]

All those noms are very similar and I think they all benefit from the same aspect of the metagame which is how pressured our Rock-resists are. Like how our ground-types already have to deal with Skuntank, Rotom, Silv-Psn, Rapidash and so on for example. Thing is though, our offensive rock-types have insane coverage to hit their usual resists like how Aurorus has been making waves since it can punish anything that isn't a Steel-type with its STAB combination. Kabutops Water-STAB lets it pressure usual Rock-checks like Stunfisk and Rhydon and gain momentum on what it cant pressure. Lycanroc-Midnight has coverage to hit pretty much every Rock-resist with CC+Play Rough/Psy Fangs. Finally, Lunatone is a cool alternative to Aurorus that is slightly faster, has a pretty insane Rapidash matchup and don't care about Fighting-types that pressure Aurorus like Gurdurr and Throh with its secondary Psychic-typing. Rock-typing is also pretty nice in this meta defensively since it helps pressure common Pokemon like Altaria and Rapidash.

B+ to A- Might be jumping the gun here a bit but I think the tournament performance that Aurorus has shown is undeniably good. It is an extremely hard mon to wall and it tends to break most teams easily. If you have any doubts, just ask yourself how the hell did Toto make so far in seasonal if Aurorus isnt good? Not only that but, its typing/bulk is also not the worst thing in the world, giving it some alright matchups vs stuff like Articuno, Altaria, Rotom and Skuntank. Overall, a good pick in this metagame.

B- to B Also pretty cool. I've been experimenting with a Choice Band Weak Armor set and it has been deadly (I definitely didn't lose to this on ladder), check g1 on majors finals if you wanna see how well it pressured Ho3n's team. Also has a pretty decent typing and deserves a small rise. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1458008227

C to C+ Scary CB mon that is very hard to switch into unless you have a non-knocked Tangela. Deadly coverage and also works as a revenge killer. Also has potential with Swords Dance sets so not really that easy to play around

UR to C After losing to this twice during Rotom suspect while spamming the classic Aurorus team I realised the potential this had in pressuring builds that relied on Throh as its main special tank. Other than that, it also had a great Rapidash matchup and also a slightly better speed-tier than Aurorus that helps it carve a niche for itself. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1458012072

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

Quick post to nom up psyvally and give my thoughts on some of the previous noms.
UR to B

B rank might seem overkill for a previously unranked mon, but imo it's the most accurate assessment of this underrated pick. Its effectiveness stems from the fact that we don't really have any offensive physical psychic types (the closest would be galardash or 3 attacks malamar and they're both bad). Other vally forms like electric or fighting suffer from the fact that their types are being heavily prepped for. Type spam or unconventional coverage is still an option for those ofc but psyvally doesn't even need to do this. U-turn deals with any bulky psychics or darks trying to stop you and Flame charge is great for steels and outspeeding scarfers (also helps that the best steel is 4x fire weak). The only (non-pyuk) blanket vally check that's effective is persian-a (whose usage has fallen off a cliff), tangela has trouble with vallies in general since it can never safely sleep anything (especially if no synth) and is a generally overrated mon, miltank really wants to run spdef for vanilluxe and qwilfish is obv not an option. Psyvally is a mon that can capitalize immensely on a good mu and still be decent in a bad one. Anyway here's a replay of it doing its thing: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1461068472. Worth noting that it would have gotten a win in zupl had I played better w2.

this took up a lot of space

Sorry for bullying you (again) tuthur but I just genuinely disagree with a lot of these takes.

C-rank cleaning!

C+ -> C, Steel-types got more prominent, which are a pain for it. Also it struggles with other rising threats like Malamar and somewhat Aurorus. agree
C+ -> C, idk why it is so far from Carbink, the other Hail setter and Beartic the hail abuser. idt the specially defensive set is good enough to keep it so high, even articuno which is its biggest competitor struggles in the current metagame. agree
C -> UR, this mon is complete garbage. It is impossible to fit in teams, it has a terrible typing, is heavily outclassed by other special attackers, and whenever people try to use it in tours it loses. hard disagree, could see this in C+ even. People have already argued its perks and I mostly agree, rn I'll show some example from my own experience (for example its wr in zupl is biased):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1418803584 : perrserker is probs the worst thing you can run into with eggy, both it and my opponent in general had a horrendous mu, not representative
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1424226183-5acdm39v06q930wq39jozh9pue4sivgpw : despite losing it put in a lot of work here, most notably allowing thievul to come in repeatedly and wreak havoc. Opponent also threw this by not going Thievul with the flip turn t37 and clicking psychic which was a guaranteed win, once again not representative (detail but ferro is also gone now)
C -> UR, Specs is weak (can't break any special sponge lol), mostly outclassed by Arctovish, and weak to Stealth Rock. It just needs to much support to be worth using. agree but outdated bc hail and no vish
C- -> UR, complete garbage that shouldn't have been ranked, it doesn't even check well rotom and skuntank is bad anw. disagree, this can be a good partner for a ground like duggy-a or even rune whose biggest flaws are they can't really switch into rotom/skunk. This would be a good countermeasure for teams that try to overwhelm grounds, sub dd or sub bu can set up on stuff like skunk, a choice-locked rotom or tangela and can be surprisingly hard to break/wall without (good special breakers or) fairies.
C- -> UR, every team has at least 2 grass resists, this mon just needs to much support. disagree, lilligant is unviable in theory but in practice in can brute-force its way through a lot of would-be answers. Tangent but relevant: for majors I was planning to cteam bossaru's team since he reuses , it contained a life orb qd sleep petal npower lilligant. When trying to cteam I realised that depending on the move he clicks a lot of checks become invalidated (for example the calc vs cb perr or scarf gour is disgusting). I ended up resorting to spdef vital spirit magmar just to be secure (which got frozen by npower so lol). Obviously I'm not suggesting we use magmar but lilligant can 100% get out of hand vs a team with a bit of good play due to its brute power even if grass resists are common.

I know those two just rose on VR but they are pure garbage. Electric terrain as a whole doesn't deserve more than C- and Shiinotic is just terrible. This feels like a cheap potshot, and an incorrect one at that. Electric Terrain is far from problematic but it def has tools to overwhelm certain mu's. C- is too harsh. Shiinotic is just not terrible, way more reliable vs a lot of physical threats than tang or goss. This might be an inelegant way of putting it but "it just checks a lot of random stuff" is absolutely true. I could make a trivial list that would go smth like sawk, thievul, apple, peko, cofa, malamar etc but I've done that before. A lot of offensive builds appreciate this quality + the free sleep.

C+ -> B+, can we acknowledge Ivy is the goat and sun is great? Shiftry is already in B+ and sees almost 0 usage outside of sun, its partner in crime, Ivygoat, deserves the same rank. disagree, this really shouldn't be ranked with shiftry, shiftry is broken in sun and ivysaur isn't even mandatory imo, sun could easily opt for smth like frosmoth (or eggy, leafeon, alt, tales, hell even coal), rise to B-/B imo
B -> B+, ditto. Sun is B+, Liepard is mandatory on sun. agree (someone tell this to ladder as well lol)
C- -> C, put it with beartic plz. agree but also outdated

edit: -> A, this mon is wonderful and it is being spammed recently because it is an incredible spinner and rotom and rhydon check. Most of what I said last time I nommed it up still stands. Long live to the Goss. hard disagree, feel like this and the lilli nom kinda contradict since they have some similar problems. Eldegoss is pretty cool rn (especially for rhydon) but its inability to touch grass resists with anything other than sleep prevents if from rising imo. You also have to forgo one of synth or ppuff which each come with its own set of problems. I also don't really consider it a rotom check (not sure what the reasoning is there).

This is not an attack on tuthur ftr he's made a lot of great noms, and some of his hot takes are just hard facts. (these noms aren't tho sorry not sorry)


Shiinotic: C to C+ (or higher!)
I was a Shiinotic doubter for a bit, but I've come around to this Pokémon quite a bit. With a unique defensive typing alongside a solid moveset, Shiinotic carves a respectable niche as a physical wall. In particular, it's one of the best Knock Off absorbers in the game. Being able to completely wall physical breakers (and Knock spammers) of the likes of Sawk, Cinccino, and Thwackey, is nothing to sleep on. These Pokémon simply can't U-Turn in its face, either, unless they want to suffer RH damage and risk a chance of status. Besides walling some prominent breakers, Shiinotic also abuses certain passive mons. Its coverage allows it to take advantage of particularly popular defesive sponges in this current meta, like Throh, Wishiwashi, and Rhydon. Spamming a 100% accurate Sleep move is also a blessing, since it enables setup sweepers like Silvally-Dark and Jynx really nicely. And don't even get me started on Strength Sap.

amen



C+ --> B- (or even B?? even tho that is a little high, even for me)

agree with flyvally (vallies that aren't fightvally in general are underrated), unfezant is bad idk what it's supposed to in rotom rhydon snowslash meta


All those noms are very similar and I think they all benefit from the same aspect of the metagame which is how pressured our Rock-resists are. Like how our ground-types already have to deal with Skuntank, Rotom, Silv-Psn, Rapidash and so on for example. Thing is though, our offensive rock-types have insane coverage to hit their usual resists like how Aurorus has been making waves since it can punish anything that isn't a Steel-type with its STAB combination. Kabutops Water-STAB lets it pressure usual Rock-checks like Stunfisk and Rhydon and gain momentum on what it cant pressure. Lycanroc-Midnight has coverage to hit pretty much every Rock-resist with CC+Play Rough/Psy Fangs. Finally, Lunatone is a cool alternative to Aurorus that is slightly faster, has a pretty insane Rapidash matchup and don't care about Fighting-types that pressure Aurorus like Gurdurr and Throh with its secondary Psychic-typing. Rock-typing is also pretty nice in this meta defensively since it helps pressure common Pokemon like Altaria and Rapidash. hard agree, I've said this before but our grounds are super pressured

B+ to A- Might be jumping the gun here a bit but I think the tournament performance that Aurorus has shown is undeniably good. It is an extremely hard mon to wall and it tends to break most teams easily. If you have any doubts, just ask yourself how the hell did Toto make so far in seasonal if Aurorus isnt good? Not only that but, its typing/bulk is also not the worst thing in the world, giving it some alright matchups vs stuff like Articuno, Altaria, Rotom and Skuntank. Overall, a good pick in this metagame. hard agree

B- to B Also pretty cool. I've been experimenting with a Choice Band Weak Armor set and it has been deadly (I definitely didn't lose to this on ladder), check g1 on majors finals if you wanna see how well it pressured Ho3n's team. Also has a pretty decent typing and deserves a small rise. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1458008227 agree

C to C+ Scary CB mon that is very hard to switch into unless you have a non-knocked Tangela. Deadly coverage and also works as a revenge killer. Also has potential with Swords Dance sets so not really that easy to play around hard agree

UR to C After losing to this twice during Rotom suspect while spamming the classic Aurorus team I realised the potential this had in pressuring builds that relied on Throh as its main special tank. Other than that, it also had a great Rapidash matchup and also a slightly better speed-tier than Aurorus that helps it carve a niche for itself. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1458012072 cautiously neutral (it's better in pu tho lol)

well it's no longer a "quick" post

 

[5Dots]

S -> S-/A+
Don't get me wrong, Sawk is still one of the very best Pokemon in the tier and should always be prepared for. However, I feel it has a lot of trouble choosing what set it wants to use - both Choice Band and Choice Scarf cause it to be prediction-reliant in order to make an impact, with the Scarf set wishing it could deal more damage to more defensive foes like Tangela, Altaria, Alcremie and Qwilfish, especially when these Pokemon are often paired up with each other. Meanwhile, the Band set has more trouble against offensive teams featuring Kangaskhan, Silvally formes, Jynx, and Gourgeist-Small. Muscle Band/Black Belt can be nifty to bluff Choice sets, but they lack both the power Band provides or the speed Scarf gives. Unlike Rotom, Sawk has to forfeit momentum whenever it encounters bad matchups, since it doesn’t have moves like u turn or volt switch.

B+ -> B:
Shiftry faces immense competition from other Grass and Dark-types - although it has great mixed attacking stats, its frailty prevents it from setting up/wallbreaking, and if it doesn't OHKO the foe it will likely get etiher ohkoed by a super effective attack or just take massive damage from neutral hits. Harsh competition from the faster Gourgeist-S generally leaves it as a sidegrade option. Sun is still a neat playstyle, but it's quite difficult to fit it over other playstyles. Hail's recent emergence can be problematic as this prevents Shiftry from spamming Solar Blade.

B -> C+
Stall is usable but B is still too bloated for it, as Audino helped patch up a team's longevity and vulnerability to status. Now, stall has to either play without a wish passer (which I do not believe works well due to vulnerability to hazards/toxic which are very common) or use the inferior lickylicky (which is not as good as before since it lacks regenerator). With how prominent hazards, toxic, skuntank, and grass and electric-types are, it becomes difficult to find the right matchup where it can succeed.

C+ -> C
You'd think with its Steel-typing and good all-around defensive stats, it'd be a solid wall that provides decent utility with Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and Yawn. However, it lacks a proper STAB move to deal with Rotom (in fact it loses to the WispHex set, gets ruined by Trick, and is fodder if Rotom gets a free sub up), and lacks a good Steel STAB move (causing it to lose to Alcremie). A lot of Pokemon it's supposed to beat, like Electric-types and Steel-types, have coverage that wears it down quickly with repeated hits (Raichu + Mane with Water/Fire coverage respectively, latter has switcheroo, Perrserker + Duggy-A have Fighting/Ground coverage respectively), causing it to underperform in its walling capabilities. Regular Stunfisk and Alolan Dugtrio outclass it since the former has better STABs and a more reliable defensive typing, while the latter can wear down walls like Tangela and Altaria with SubToxic.

(Grass) C -> UR
As a mixed attacker/physical sweeper, it faces too much inherent competition from other Silvallies (Poison, Dark, Electric, even Fighting), and the plethora of Grass-types in the tier. If I wanted a mixed wallbreaker, I could go for Silvally-Poison or even LO Gourgeist-S for the job, as the former has better defensive typing and more flexible coverage choices, while the latter's helpful secondary Ghost typing (spinblocking niche), more useful ability, and better speed tier enables it to be more splashable. While this Pokemon is usable, I don't think this is worth ranking over other Pokemon that have shown actual tournament play + success.

 

[5Dots]

Gonna throw in a couple extra noms before shifts change the meta:
UR -> A
Between Choice Specs, Heavy-Duty Boots, and Icy Rock, Vanilluxe is one of the best special attackers thanks to Snow Warning complemented with excellent Blizzard/Freeze-Dry coverage to hit everything bar Fire- and Steel-types effectively. Vanilluxe is able to perform excellently against defensive teams thanks to its hail chip negating recovery + access to options like Taunt + Toxic to hinder defensive staples like Pyukumuku, Stunfisk, Tangela, Articuno, and Altaria. Although it struggles a bit more against offensive teams with its middling speed tier, on its own it provides the support needed for fellow hail abusers with the valued ability, in addition to providing support with Icy Rock and Aurora Veil to warrant easier setups. Even with a Stealth Rock weakness, shallow movepool, and horrid defensive typing, it still provides outstanding offensive and defensive support thanks to its raw power and ability.

EDIT: ;-; RIP Ice Cream Cone, you will be missed

UR -> C+
Although a far cry from Vanilluxe’s raw power, Abomasnow still provides the same offensive/defensive support with said ability + offensive movepool. What really separates this yeti tree from the rest of the pack is its greater mixed movepool and additional Grass-typing - unlike Vanilluxe, Abomasnow can find better switch-in opportunities against the likes of Stunfisk, Basculin, and Appletun, and Choice-locked Rotom. Unlike other Hail setters, Abomasnow provides a source of recovery with Giga Drain, giving it more longevity compared to Aurorus and Vanilluxe, and can more reliably fit Ice Shard into its moveset to pick off weakened threats. While far harder to fit on teams than the Slush Rush Abusers and other Hail setters, Abomasnow still has a defined place in a popular archetype, where the meta is far kinder to it than before.

EDIT: Although Vanilluxe leaving gives it a more distinguished role as a hail setter, aurorus will still be better most of the time, and Aboma struggles to utilize its only okay attacking stats and additional grass typing compared to aurorus.
C -> C+/B-
Beartic has already shown waves in NU for being a scary Slush Rush breaker, and in ZU it’s no surprise on how it’s even scarier. 130 Attack is difficult to stomach, especially when considering its nifty coverage choices complemented with Life Orb or Choice Band. While it is slow even at +2, barring Choice Scarf Sawk, Manectric, and the uncommon Accelgor, Beartic can still easily mow down unprepared teams. Bulldoze to deal with Qwilfish, Rapidash and Coalossal (no triggering flame body!) is a neat tech and gives Sandslash-A some more flexibility to explore other options in its movepool.

C- -> C:
If hail has gotten better, so too has Trick Room. Beheeyem only needs to survive one attack (and not get frozen) to activate Trick Room and launch a powerful counter-assault - Save Abomasnow, most of the hail abusers don’t run priority to mess with Beheeyem, which gives it the freedom to set up with meteor beam and attack away with powerful psychics. Another set that S1nn0hC0nfirm3d has used is a bulky nasty plot set and still be equally as monstrous to switch into if there are no dark-types:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1465532130-m7hkbligwajqvm8ajdq3ervmaut813jpw

A -> A-
Fire = super effective against ice, so you’d think Rapidash could do better here, right? Strangely enough, Rapidash is much more limited in the hail-based offense - Its recovery is halved under Hail, not to mention Beartic and Alolan Sandslash, two prominent abusers, can easily dispose of it even if they don’t like incurring flame body. Rapidash sometimes struggles with offensive utility sets since it is reliant on heavy-duty boots, and its bulk, while not terrible for its archetype, is still frail and can suffer a lot of damage from moves like kangaskhan’s earthquake or any of sawk’s moves.

A- -> B+
I don’t have a strong argument for Persian-Alola, but I feel that Skuntank provides much more offensive value while still offering just as much, if not more, defensive utility with Corrosive Gas and a secondary typing. Persian-A is very fast and provide good pivoting capabilities, but it tends to lose some presence against more offensive teams due to how it doesn’t hit hard and it could accidentally give a choice scarf to something useful like sawk or manectric. Also doesn’t really do anything to stop hail mons from setting up the weather or the abusers from attacking.

Apologies for the double post.

 

[viet noa]

Abomasnow: UR to B-
I don't have any replays right now, but I'm doing this nomination because it's less of a matter of if it's viable, and more of how viable Abomasnow is. With access to Snow Warning, not only does Abomasnow facilitate Slush Rush abusers like SnowSlash, but it also gains access to a no-miss Blizzard. This plows through notable walls like Tangela, Altaria, and Appletun, making it a strong special attacker. However, what sets it apart from other breakers is its abilty to answer traditional checks with its coverage. Its STAB Grass moves threaten Water-types like Wishiwashi, Earthquake threatens Fire-types like Coalossal, and Ice Shard can revenge kill faster breakers like Sawk that are weakened. Despite its versatility as a mixed breaker, it suffers from a terrible defensive typing alongside poor speed. As a result, faster Pokémon like Klinklang, Rapidash, and Sawk can easily dispose of it if they aren't in Ice Shard range. Furthermore, despite destroying common walls, Abomasnow also gets sat on by OTHER common walls like SnowSlash, Articuno, and Miltank. While Abomasnow has clear flaws holding it back, it has unique coverage and good strength, making it a fun breaker to build around.

Aurorus: B+ to A
Even without unbanning Snow Warning, Aurorus was shaping up to be a notable threat. With Snow Warning's chip and Blizzard's stronger power now in the fold, switching into Aurorus has only become even less bearable. Despite its lacking speed and terrible defensive typing, Aurorus wreaks havoc whenever it's able to see the field. It has near perfect coverage, being able to threaten Steel-types with Earth Power and Water-types with STAB Freeze-Dry. For the most part though, Meteor Beam and Blizzard serve as absolute nukes that can overwhelm almost any defensive Pokémon. Of course, Meteor Beam is a one-time use for the most part (it can do a second Meteor Beam against a passive Pokémon like Uxie, though), but most switch-ins to Meteor Beam are terrified by Blizzard or Earth Power. As a result of these things, Aurous greatly punishes bulky teams that leave any wiggle room for it to drop bombs. So, players HAVE to prepare for Aurorus in the teambuilder.

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

and UR to A-: These two are pretty much mandatory on hail and hail is an A- playstyle at least (if you disagree with this, you're wrong). Not much else to add apart to say that Aboma deserves B+ on its own for sure.

A+ to S: Probably a controversial take that I'm sure will be met with skepticism, but imo snowslash is the most threatening mon in the entire meta rn. Even support sets deserve A+ from my experience so it's not a one-dimensional mon at all (in case anyone is arguing this). Anyone who's played ZU recently should be familiar with hail by now. Whether it's a lone aurorus, a hail core, or full hail they're all pretty deadly in their own way. The reason I consider it a cut above the rest above the ice types is because of its unmatched sweeping potential. Abomasnow and Aurorus, while scary, can't run through entire teams. Similarly, Beartic gets outpaced by almost every scarfer and doesn't get nearly as many setup opprtunities due to a worse typing (if you decide to go the sd route ofc). It's extremely difficult to stop a +2 snowslash without one of wishi, gurdurr, poliwrath or scarf mane, and even then those can get overwhelmed (as has happened in plenty of games I've played). I've seen pilo and miltank mentioned as answers but they both lose (unless miltank is body press) since the optimal fourth move for the sd axel eq set is iron head. There's very little reason to run knock with Jellicent having left and iron head ensures you do not lose the aforementioned "checks". Snowslash also outspeeds scarf sawk (and even rotom if jolly) so that's not a viable solution either. +2 eq still does big damage vs answers especially with life orb while wide lens makes sure you practically never miss ur sub-ignoring 120 bp stab attack (yes helmet is still pain but detail). Its typing also gives it a good amount of setup opportunities while scaring out a significant number of mons. tldr snowslash is nutty.

A to A+: Qwilfish fits pretty much on every type of team, everything from ho to semistall appreciates its qualities. Apart from providing the very valuable spikes it naturally checks a lot of relevant threats with its moveset being customizable to deal with fat or offense alike. For example taunt split or twave waterfall or even sd are all good at their job.

A+ to A-: This hasn't been A+ for a while but it got even worse with the entrance of hail. It's still exploitable and cirumventable but there's even more ways to take advantage of it now. It also can't check the new most threatening physical attacker. One could reasonably argue this dropping even further but i'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now.

A to B+: It really doesn't appreciate hail halving its recovery and even without that it loses to half of the hail mons anyway due to its low bulk. A bit counterintuitive, but hail has definitely made dash significantly worse.

 

[diegoyuhhi]

casual zu player here, some unpopular opinions

not gonna go over hail stuff since everyone knows they should be nommed and i never used hail myself so i'm not sure how high i would rank those mons

Downgrades

A -> A-/maybe even B+
this thing is not that great anymore imho, tons of stuff check it and it often isn't able to brute-force through his checks, even with cb. king's rock's loss was a huge downgrade but it's been a while since that, and it's speed tier (his best quality) isn't that relevant anymore with all this hail and random scarfers around

A- -> B
really good phys bulk, insane speed, utility... but there's that. i often see it become too passive, its really low atk meaning it can't even abuse knock off to actually do damage, i'm not even talking about nasty plot sets bc they are pretty bad. it's straight up useless against special attackers, it's only decent against physical set up sweepers, with foul play and parting as valuable tech. no recovery hurts it a lot too

B -> C
why is this here. seriously, it's outclassed as a stealth rocker, cb/lo set deal a ridicolously low amount of damage, subtoxic sets kinda work but why use such a frail mon then. the only valuable things i can see are its insane speed tier and his ok ability. that's it. doesn't even check scarf rotom: 252 SpA Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio-Alola: 142-168 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

C -> UR
why should anyone use this. bad typing, slow in sun, outclassed in tr, unexpectedly low bulk, terrible coverage. i think everyone can agree that this thing is absolute trash and has no reason being on the vr

there are also a few more that i would personally downgrade (namely ninetales, thievul, lapras and leafeon) but i think i can't express an opinion about them without analizing them more.

Upgrades!

(grass) C -> B-/even B maybe
ppl who say it's bad/outclassed never tried its true power. this mon is one of the best late game cleaners i've ever used. it can hit anything in the tier for at least neutral damage, if not supereffective. especially on webs this mon is insane, but even outside of that after the opponent's team has been weakened (and maybe removed their rapidash) this mon can seriously ko anything.

C -> at least B
oh. my. fking. god. do i hate this mon. this thing shuts down most of my teams just by existing, and with the rise of hail and breakers like alolash and beartic becoming more popular priority will-o is just busted. taunt and encore are also a pain to deal with, not to mention priority recovery and utility in knock off and foul play. i'm not even kidding, use this mon

C+ -> B
my boy the birb. pair this with any defogger and you've got one of the best scarfers in the tier. outspeeding both scarf sawk and scarf rotom is amazing, and with 115 base atk you're gonna fire off some really strong bravebirds. decent coverage (even if not really needed, you're clicking brave bird 99% of the times) + uturn + super luck to increase crit ratio make this mon a really powerful attacker. it has also the option of going banded if you already have a scarfer on your team, skyrocketing up your damage output (252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 236-278 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO); although unfezant without scarf finds itself in a very sad speed tier just below the vallys.

B- -> B/B+
the low ladder staple. although for people who come in the tier for the first time throat spray + unburden can seem the best set, it's heavily outclassed by sticky hold specs, but that's not even why i'm nomming this mon. sticky hold boots with spikes + final gambit is such a great mon in all kinds of offense/hyper offense teams, not only as a lead but also as a mon who can come in later in the game to provide that last amount of damage needed to eliminate a check. other utility moves like yawn and encore are also pretty good for messing up your opponent's strat.

A+ -> S
i said i wasn't gonna go over hail stuff, but my god is this mon good. hail offensive sets are of course super strong, but even outside of hail his "old standard" spikes set is still really good, being one of the best spikes setter in the tier together with qwilfish (and accelgor). physdef rapid spin is also massively underrated imo, with this stupid set i found (edit: use slush rush not snow cloak i mistabbed) you're able to beat other hail abusers, outspeeding jolly alolash after 1 rapidspin and 2hkoing with earthquake, but before attacking him set up an iron defense to be able to live all of its hits. we can all agree that this mon is one of, if not the best mon in the tier.

A+ -> S
bit of an odd pick here, but wishi has proven itself to be the best bulky pivot in the tier, expecially in this hail meta. resisting both of alolash's stabs and beartic's stab + liquidation is really good, and with its really high physdef and hp it's able to live a lot of stuff before dying. even if it usually runs leftovers, i've been enjoying boots and rocky helmet too, with the second one being able to punish even more the hail abusers. it can also run spdef to check some special attackers better, if the team already has a physdef tank (i.e. tangela). resttalk provides constant recovery, scald can provide burns and min speed uturn to get your frail attackers in is always useful. the only problem with this mon is that it overlaps the water type with qwilfish, but if i had to choose i would probably choose wishi, since there are many pokemon that fulfill the same role as qwil, while wishi is the one and only zu bulky pivot.

UR time!

UR -> C
this. mon. should. be. experimented. more. with rapidash "losing" its recovery move under hail, coalossal dying to anything supereffective and ninetales being bad, zu is missing a decent fire type to beat all the hail abusers and setters around. heatmor is a really odd pick that can surprise your opponent with a ton of different sets. i've used it: special scarf, mixed scarf, mixed boots, physical boots, physical air baloon in a team missing a ground immunity, and special specs. and there still are life orb sets, utility sets, set up sets that i haven't tried yet. this mon's main resource is its insane number of different sets, and so it can be very ambiguous on team preview. fire lash is one of the best moves in the game (see centiscorch) and this mon is one of the few mons with access to it, making it actually viable in this tier. try this mon out, you won't regret it.

UR -> C-
the king's back. well, kinda. steel types have always been a missing resource in zu except for alolash, and adding stab knock off + good prio + one of the best abilities in the game make this mon actually some what decent. it's steel (badumtss) kinda frail even with eviolite, and its attack stat isn't the best, but i think that it could fulfill an interesting niche in some teams.

UR -> C-
this is a bit of a blind pick, but a friend of mine told me that he tried an agility guts flameorb set and that it actually was pretty good. i guess that with its base 120 atk stat boosted further by guts it's able to break through a lot of stuff, and with agility it can outspeed not only scarfers but also the hail abusers, OHKOing alolash with fire fang. i trust my friend so i decided i could try to nom this.


aaaand that's all, feel free to tell me your opinions about these noms and sorry for any eventual grammar mistake.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Edit: Copy of votes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KCVwM8jQNK0doMdmvVhGVl-tYZhnamMsfyUWCLFvvoU/edit#gid=0

Rises

> S: The metagame is heavily centralized around entry hazards and Ice-types, so Alolan Sandslash fits right in. There's a lot of variability both within sets and with overall roles, so it's hard to go wrong with it.
> S: See above. It's also a premier defensive Water-type with a Fighting resist so intrinsically it provides a ton for a team.
> A+: It's not just Snow Warning––that was the final straw––it's also more players realizing how busted this things coverage is. Super variable in how you want to sweep / wallbreak, so unless you're running Protect Cyrogenal, most teams cannot afford to scout.
> A+: The verdict with this one has been going back and forth for a while now. I think with more recent tour wins, the Alcremie wincon pick is getting more praise.
> A+: Way more experimentation and variability that's coming to light. Super malleable as well, so if you need a fast Ice resist, go for it, or how bout a Gourgeist-S counter? Whatever your fancy, Miltank can work it out.
> A+: Overall great offensive support mon. Recent trends really value the Grassy Glide + U-turn + Knock Off combo.
> A: It's pretty much a Tangela-tier sidegrade at this point, if not better. Rapid Spin + Heavy-Duty Boots is awesome.
> A-: Ground-types are still very good, and one that resists Ice and isn't passive is pretty cool.
> A-: Great resistances and immunity, Choice Specs in particular is very deadly... if only Focus Blast hit more often ;-;
> A-: Completes a lot of great defensive cores, and what is essentially the #1 Volt Switch blocker doesn't go unnoticed.
> B+: It's a mix of its typing being pretty nice to slap on teams and it being more consistent of a revenge killer.
> B+: It doesn't run weather sets that much anymore, but imagine a faster Silvally-Dark that can hold an item and use Sucker Punch. Snot so bad.
> B+: 105 Speed is pretty relevant on Choice sets, as is Fire coverage to supplement Volt Switch when more teams use Eldegoss.
> B+: Great tour use. A Fighting-type sweeper that's faster than Choice Scarf Sawk at +1 is nutty; alternatively, antimeta coverage works great too.
> B: Deceptively sweeping teams, Unburden Throat Spray sets are finally threatening late-game with relevant coverage for popular special walls.
> B: Outside of rain, this thing still has a lot to offer offensively + supportively.
> B-: More recognition for Silvally sweepers, and Silvlaly-Flying is one that beats Tangela + Eldegoss so it's a good sell.
> B-: Rising as more of a testament to Ground-types being good, as otherwise regular Stunfisk has this beat usually.
> B-: Our premier Brave Birder is getting more recognition, especially with all the Fighting- and Grass-types.
> C+: Hail moment.
> C+: Entry hazard meta, so Magic Bounce stocks are rising.
> C+: Spinblocker with great recovery, Knock Off, and priority status = good for the meta.
> C: Special sponges aren't so bad right now, and one that can pivot is a neat niche.

New:
> B: Snow Warning is a great buff to what can be a mixed, special, or physical wallbreaker that facilitates Slush Rush sweepers too.
> C+: Good enough Speed for a wallbreaker, and we all know now that Meteor Beam slaps.
> C: A little overdue, Silvally-Psychic has been getting tour wins since last ZUPL, and there's a decent antimeta offensive edge to its coverage + Speed as a sweeper.
> C-: This is probably more of a testament to how good Fighting-types are generally than what Falinks can do, but hey, it's there, it does somethings not so bad.
> S: Undoubtedly the best ZU Pokemon to have ever graced our beloved tier. Unfathomably based. Totally S tier; if not S+; if not that than S++; if not even that then S+++. We are ants compared to Palpitoad. We have nothing to offer Palpitoad for it is perfect. And for more reasons than what we mere mortals could put into words, Palpitoad is undoubtably Saracasm-tier.

Drops

> A: More competition, especially with Eldegoss.
> A-: Less favorable meta, harder to fit on teams with more competition as well. On the other hand, Spikes teams do very well with it, but maybe it's just generally less justifiable.
> A-: Stallbreakers less good, better special wallbreakers around, you don't really need Skuntank as much.
> B+: Morning Sun is nerfed versus Snow Warning, and more so, Rapidash's defensive utility isn't as valuable when it loses to a ton of Ice-types and physical attackers.
> B+: Meteor Beam Aurorus was a heavy hit for a premier special wall. Loses quick to Stealth Rocks when there's a million Knock Off users on every team now.
> B+: Poliwrath is better now; both as a Basculin counter and Choice Specs user.
> B+: Downward usage, just not a popular physical sponge, and a lot of its traits are done better when spread out within multiple Pokemon rather than compressed into a single poor-typed wall.
> B: We have a lot of Ice- and Steel-types coming into fruition, and it's not just Alolan Sandslash.
> B: Some good matchups, otherwise underwhelming with very exploitable weaknesses.
B- > C+: Small drop but probably just because of less use due to the extreme popularity of top Electric-types.
> C: Less use, pretty bad weaknesses.
:gourgeist-super: > C: More competition with better Grass-types. Maybe rises sometime later with Cofagerigus gone? We'll see.
> C: No one is using stall anymore.
> C: Surprise factor dying down, Ice-type wallbreakers on the rise.
> C-: I never even played sun in the past, but with Snow Warning back? Get outta here.
> C-: See above.
> C-: Ice-type competition + it's bad + ratio + cope
> C-: Electric Seed spam is really fishy, borderline loses more than it wins.
> UR: Silvally-Grass offers no noteworthy niche over other formes that's worth ranking.
> UR: Was already super hard to pull off, now there's hail chip to worry about.
> UR: You don't need to set weather manually anymore.
> UR: I wouldn't say its without its niche but stall is bad and no one uses this.
> UR: Way too gimmicky + matchup reliant.
> UR: I'll tell you what, it's wak to unrank this!!! Jokes aside, it's too unreliable as a wallbreaker.

 

[risin_glory]

Wanna nom to B/B-
Czim and some others have already spoken on how wool is a great answer to all of hail. Tho, aurorus leaving soon (most likely) in itself has been a point against noming it saying that it loses its niche. However, 1) I have only used abomasnow as my hail setter till now and i totally dont see why hail would no longer be significant because of aurorus' departurture. 2) I have been playing with a random team i made with wool purely out of the will to meme and i have been pmuch sweeping with it even against non hail teams, showing that wool still got enough fire in it to burn holes in the meta.
Dubwool is also naturally fast so it needs minimal speed investment. I will leave below some replays to further prove my point.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491209533
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491434269
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491910492
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491897810-ff4imq2r7h4gjrf6qyftfcuhd34b80hpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1492022001 (This one was particularly interesting)

 

[5Dots]

Wanna nom to B/B-
Czim and some others have already spoken on how wool is a great answer to all of hail. Tho, aurorus leaving soon (most likely) in itself has been a point against noming it saying that it loses its niche. However, 1) I have only used abomasnow as my hail setter till now and i totally dont see why hail would no longer be significant because of aurorus' departurture. 2) I have been playing with a random team i made with wool purely out of the will to meme and i have been pmuch sweeping with it even against non hail teams, showing that wool still got enough fire in it to burn holes in the meta.
Dubwool is also naturally fast so it needs minimal speed investment. I will leave below some replays to further prove my point.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491209533
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491434269
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491910492
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1491897810-ff4imq2r7h4gjrf6qyftfcuhd34b80hpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1492022001 (This one was particularly interesting)

Now that The Aurorus suspect is over, Dubwool doesn’t really have a niche anymore. Alolan Sandslash is now gone (and Beartic is pretty awful now), which takes away its role at checking it effectively. Worse, mono-fighting coverage makes it simple to wall with Rotom and Gourgeist formes, which is especially problematic since the best Dubwool can do is try to stall them out in the endgame only to usually fail by careful switching, meaning it is extremely reliant on teammates to put in work for it. Even if ghost-types are discounted, most special attackers have a way to chip it down heavily before it gets very far sweeping (also Rotom, but mane, Rotom-fan, Alcremie but especially the DD variant, Mixed Vally Poison). Fire-types like Rapidash and Ninetales are also trending upwards, meaning Dubwool not only has less targets to deal with but has to deal with even more checks that threaten it.

As for the replays, most of the games minus the second game were against low-rated ladder opponents, and from what I saw, they gave away their special attacker too early and let Dubwool set up. Three of the replays were using subpar teams, one of them was an outdated sample. It’s a fun pick against low-ladder and it could be catch tour players off-guard once in a blue moon, but in practice, you’d have difficulty to justify using it over even Bouffalant for its role as a bulky wincon, and Bouffalant is niche in the first place...

As a side note, Substitute makes you even more passive against Taunt and doesn’t help against ghosts.

 

[Tuthur]

New -> A, solid breaker, on paper nothing switches into it, in practice it didn't feel that broken for the moment.

B+ -> A+, Articuno is back as a premier defoger. Aurorus and Alolan Sandlslash could completely invalidate it, and now they are gone. Perrserker and Klinklang can"t punish Articuno that well, and they are the closest counters. Articuno is just amazing rn and you can do w/e you want with it.

B+ -> A, just like Articuno, the metagame is more favorable to them. Hail completely invalidated it, and even if Abomasnow still exists, it is overall easier to use now that it beats most Ice-types.

C -> B+, Specs is nuts. It takes the slow special attacker slot that aurorus left empty. Unless you have Articuno, you're going to need to outsmart it or you'll get smashed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1501193323-da1jqz6q80zlsc65begh95l89x4xer5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1500365040-sqshhiup077gp3yvzt6nvu9ns20jqcxpw

 

[kay]

Raises:

A --> A+

Hails gone, Rapidash is back, and the best specially defensive wall is Articuno which can't afford to take a knock in most situations which leaves teams without a great answer to Tangela long term. It does exactly what its always done the what it does is a lot better this meta and the support you normally run with Tangela is also better. This is an easy A+ mon again

B+ --> A-

Huge winner of Slash-a being gone. The tier has slowed down tremendously and with Slash-a gone the gameplan of slowdown and abuse small bits of chip with knock and foul play along side Toxic spam is actually really hard to answer. Added to the fact its just an amazing pivot thanks to its generic ability to be a middle ground play against literally any physical mon in the tier, it means you get a ton of value out of it. Amazing mon in the metagame right now.

B --> B+

This meta is amazing for Cramorant with Slash-a being gone and Tangdash being on the up, but there is one little nuisance of Vish running around which is why I don't think its the strongest B+ mon in the tier. But it is still amazing at what it does and its always been a staple to go along side TangDash so its a natural fit to reclaim its B+ throne.



Drops:

S --> A+

So I was gone for the meta where Qwil was S, but to my understanding it was because of how well it paired with the hail cores and a direct reaction to the meta speeding up. With the meta getting slower and it being pretty much forced into running Poison Jab for things like Eldegoss and Vish, it really feels like it lost a lot of weight in the metagame as now taunt + poison immunity can't carry it in slower paced games. Its still an incredible mon but I don't think its deserving of S anymore

A+ --> A

A lot of the power of Alcremie came from its hypothetical ability to run more offensive sets to lure in answers to the CM Acid Armor sets which paved the way for your other teammates. But whats ended up happening is we've seen that lure so much that its just expected to look out for, and you can normally tell the set just off team preview and play around the lure. Its still incredibly scary if you mishandle it but I see it as like kinda a better Frosmoth of its very match up fishing. Its still got some hypothetical power with the mind games of which set it is, but I don't feel like it plays out quite that strong in practice.

A- --> B+

Hails gone and the once needed ice resist is no longer as needed. This was a relic of a meta no longer with us and I think its safe to drop it, especially with Tangela being back and Articuno forcing it to have to opt into rock coverage which hurts its general viability.

B --> B-/C+

Its not a kay post if I'm not nomming Tangdash up, Cram up, and Coal down, so really I'm just filling the quota.

Jokes aside, this mon was really nice for a specific niche of being able to hold back faster team as a stop gap and buy time long enough to not lose first thanks to its useful resistances but lack of any kind of longevity. But todays meta is much much slower and grind games are a big deal right now, which is very much not in Coals favor when a single Toxic or a single Knock Off is enough to be able to out pressure it and kill it with almost no resistance. Which is kind of an issue when majority of the things it wants to switch in on carry either Knock Off or Toxic. It genuinely feels bad to use outside it being useful against U-turn Articuno which is really its saving grace in the meta for not being a total push over.

 

[Corthius]

Ayo it's time for RADICAL NOMS!!!!

S --> A+
Pretty much agree with what kay said above + with Sandslash-Alola gone hazard stack lost a key partner. Sandslash-Alola/Aurorus leaving the tier also benefits pretty much every defogger like Articuno, Rotom-Fan and Cramorant which Qwilfish doesn't really appreciate coming in, especially the former two. I also feel like being a Sandslash-Alola check was huge in the metagame where that pokemon was so centralizing. In my theory the metagame will shift towards having overall more reliable hazard control (defogger in general) which makes Spikes less efficient.
I still believe hazard stacking will remain a big part of the metagame and Qwilfish still checks pokemon like Utilitydash which is predicted to rise in usage.

B+ --> A/A+
I love Articuno right now. As Tuthur already stated, losing two top tier pokemon that invalidated it automatically makes Articuno a lot better. Defog is really consistent right now. As a blanket special wall I like U-turn, Roost + dual STAB the most, which checks a lot while still maintaining momentum on pokemon like Klinklang.

A- --> A & B+ --> A-
The Shift Gear set from Klinklang didn't really get better, but the tier lacks good Steel types and Klinklang/Perrserker are one of the best options to close this hole. While they don't offer hazards nor removal, they do give you pivoting in Volt Switch or U-turn which puts the main utility of our defensive Steel types in a new light. Klinklang offers more initial speed and bulk, but gets its Volt Switch blocked by Ground types, while Perrserker has less bulk, but provides a slower and more consistent pivot. They synergize really well with the Grass and Psyhic types that got better.

 

[Corthius]

Double post but it's not my fault no one responded :(

S --> A+
Now don't get me wrong, Sawk is an amazing wallbreaker and Choice Scarf user that finds its opportunities to come in due to good synergy with common pivots. It just never felt like a S rank pokemon to me. Choice Scarf is rather splashable and really consistent, but there are just so many good pokemon that hinder it from cleaning. Really good poke, just not S rank in my eyes.

A --> A+
Tangela is incredible (again) in the current metagame. Knock Off + Sleep Powder is super annoying to switch into and anything remotly able to take onto that is crippled by Sludge Bomb poison. Being able to wall most physical attacker that don't have access to Knock Off (and even some that have) is really valuable into almost any matchup.

& B+ --> A/A+
Both heavily benefit from both Aurorus and Sandslash-Alola not being in the tier anymore. The famous TangDash core, where Articuno fits amazingly, is back again and is irritating as previously. Utilitydash checks a lot of pokemon that got better like Perrserker, Klinklang and Frosmoth (Articuno checks this one too) and Fire move + Toxic is always annoying to switch into. Qwilfish being so incredible would lead me to ranking Articuno a bit higher (or Rapidash lower in A- I guess) as you don't really damage that even with High Horsepower. Articuno also has a relatively slow U-turn which a lot of the frailer breaker appreciate a lot.

B- --> B+
Spiritomb is a pretty one-dimensional pokemon. Calm Mind RestTalk with a STAB move that has no immunities can be incredibly deadly into any matchup that lacks a super strong physical breaker like Thwackey or Arctovish. Alcremie is also pretty much a dead-end hence I'm not ranking this higher. The thing is, the current meta heavily favors longer games which Spiritomb is amazing into with Pressure stalling PPs effectively.
Additionally, hazards being so incredible in this meta, having a Ghost type that can reliably come in on the common Rapid Spin user is really valuable.

 

[risin_glory]

B- --> B+
Spiritomb is a pretty one-dimensional pokemon. Calm Mind RestTalk with a STAB move that has no immunities can be incredibly deadly into any matchup that lacks a super strong physical breaker like Thwackey or Arctovish. Alcremie is also pretty much a dead-end hence I'm not ranking this higher. The thing is, the current meta heavily favors longer games which Spiritomb is amazing into with Pressure stalling PPs effectively.
Additionally, hazards being so incredible in this meta, having a Ghost type that can reliably come in on the common Rapid Spin user is really valuable.

Corth covered most of what i wanted to say and i agree with the rise he asked. Tho, i would also like to add that it is one of the best/safest switchins to tangela/eldegoss/miltank/malamar/sr uxie/sableye/sawk/gloom/runerigus/altaria/articuno, etc
Ofc it isnt the primary switch in to some of those, but it can work the way if needed. I have had a lot of success with it during my vish sus run and in a lot of my games i just won cuz after a bit of chipping and cleaning spiritomb went brrrr.

 

[5Dots]

Time to make some noms again :o

Rises :D

B+ -> A-
Alolan Dugtrio is just great at what it does as a SubToxic user. As one of the fastest mons in the game, with Cinccino and Alolan Persian not being as common of a sight as before, it stands out as difficult to deal with even with a wall like Tangela and Eldegoss. Slotting Aromatherapy in to deal with it is easier said than done, as it can potentially give teammates some switches or just give Dugtrio the opportunity to fire another toxic with smart prediction. While its bulk is pretty bad, it is enough to the point that it can cleanly beat weaker walls like Eldegoss 1v1 at 50%, which is further helped by the choices between toxic and iron head to further secure matchups. Additionally, it can decently pivot into threats like Rotom-Fan, Klinklang, and CM + Aromatherapy Alcremie variants, since they lack the immediate firepower to instantly threaten Dugtrio. It’s seen increasing tour usage and it really shows how annoying it can be on both paper and practice.
(Super) C -> B-
This has seen more experimentation as a strong wall with nice utility options, especially after the hail ban. It is hard for physical threats like Sawk, Thwackey and Kangaskhan to break past it without relying on Toxic damage. While Tangela and Eldegoss tend to be more splashable due to Regenerator, Gourgeist-Super stands out by not being as reliant for eviolite and having utility options like Wisp to deter the aformentioned physical powerhouses and the ghost immunity to prevent Eldegoss from spinning reliably at all. Due to its solid 100 Attack stat, it can also be a decent offensive tank that can also revenge Rotom and Jynx with Shadow Sneak, which makes it a nice mid-ground between Thwackey and Tangela. Skill Swap (also something the other two grasses don’t have) enables it to be a pseudo-Cofagrigus and gain neat abilities like Regenerator or luring in foes like Ninetales and Rapidash on the switch.

C -> C+
The same thing with Gourgeist-Super: it got better without Slush Rush in the picture. What’s unique is that it functions as a slower, bulkier Malamar with access to more reliable Recovery in synthesis and an additional STAB move in Leaf Storm to go alongside Superpower for sweeping. It’s actually able to use the bulky grasses like Eldegoss and Tangela as fodder, which unique among other grass-types. Also unique is its access to Defog, which is a rare sight among other grass-types.

Drops :(

A- -> B+
Articuno, Alcremie, and Clefairy coming back to stopgap it damages Thievul’s capabilities for wallbreaking. While it might seem bulkier builds is what allows Thievul to thrive, even Fighting-types (Sawk, Throh, Gurdurr, Wrath) weak to psychic can makes things difficult, since they have enough bulk to stomach a hit and take back momentum. Worse, it’s at a merely fine Speed benchmark, as it is still slower than threats like Rotom, Silvally formes, and Jynx, which can pick it off without too much trouble with low bulk and a subpar defensive typing.
B+ -> B
While Prankster Nasty Plot + Copycat sets can be difficult to handle without a sturdy special wall and dark resist, similarly to thievul, Liepard has more difficulty in setting up and sweeping with special walls like articuno and clefairy getting more popular. Also, even at +2, Liepard is still weak and susceptible to priority, which doesn’t help when kangaskhan and gurdurr can pick it off with ease. Weather teams have also gotten significantly worse, which doesn’t help it either. I’d argue Choice Band sets are better to use than Nasty Plot sets, since Liepard doesn’t have to be as prediction-reliant to break through opponents and has Knock to go alongside it.

B -> C+
With Slush Rush’s ban, Abomasnow has lost a large amount of value by not being able to support Alolan Sandslash and Beartic, which forces it to distinguish itself as a standalone hail attacker. Abomasnow has not seen much play (if at all) since, as most B tiers aren’t as defensively vulnerable or have such middling speed tiers, as it’s going to either suffer a lot of damage trying to come in if running specs or has more pronounced difficulty versus special walls, which are trending right now. Even with Aurorus gone, other Ice-types like Frosmoth and Jynx tend to perform better thanks to their better abilities, movepools, and speed tiers. Abomasnow still has a lot of good things going for it, but it feels polarizing and wanting to fit all the item and moves into its moveset, hence the drop.

On a side note, Arctovish’s ban hasn’t really changed anything. Aside from a few minor changes like Stunfisk and Rhydon getting slightly better, the meta has been quiet since. I’ve done experimenting with stuff like physical Skuntank and offensive utility Hattrem, though everything looks like it’s bulky balance and balance offense for now. A lot of UR mons have potential to put in genuine work throughout a game, though I haven’t tested them enough to get a clear consensus on them.

I think Alolan Persian deserves a small bump for its utility and Throh a small decrease for competition with Gurdurr, though I think it’d also be fine if they were left where they were.

 

[Corthius]

my opinion simply matters more (ss from 12.03.22)

After playing a lot more recently it is time for some additional noms, for any further noms before a VR/meta update I will probably edit this post so I don't flood this thread. Anyway:

A+ --> S
Alcremie is amazing and, with Rotom, the only pokemon that deserves S rank in my eyes. Ever since Alolan Sandslash and most of hail took the boot, Alcremie has been incredibly dominating. Its set diversity feels even bigger than Rotoms, with coverage to hit everything besides Fire types. But besides the obvious offensive capabilities Alcremie offers, a pure Fairy typing offers key defensive features resisting 'dangerous' typings like Dark and Fighting.
My personal favorite sets are Sub CM and DoubleDance with either Dazzling Gleam or Stored Power, but it has a lot of other viable options it can run.

(fighting) B+ --> A or even A+ (really high I know but its so good)
I like this a lot more than Sawk as my fast offensive Fighting type in the current metagame simply because I don't really think Sawk has much niche over Silvally other than Knock Off for walls like Articuno and Tangela - with the latter being 2HKOed by Ice Beam anyway - and Choice Scarf which is splashable and fine speed control, but can also drain a lot of momentum. And that is the key word here: momentum. Silvally-Fighting, even if using Multi-Attack into common Fighting checks like Altaria, can still maintain momentum by covering potential double switches and do that little bit of chip damage that goes a long way in this really fat-oriented meta. Silvally also benefits from the incredible coverage all of its forms have.
Really great pokemon unless you face OBB Shiinotic.

(flying) B- --> B
I nommed this two up a while ago, but the meta has lost two great Flying resists (that were annoying for this core) since then and I believe that these two together can be incredibly hard to deal with. Unfezant shines with a really strong CB Brave Bird, that can easily break frailer and specially defensive Flying resists like Rotom and Stunfisk. In addition to that it can utilize its secondary typing by trading a check, mainly Stunfisk, by using Giga Impact in order to let Silvally-Flying sweep as it struggles with breaking Stunfisk. On the other hand, Silvally-Flying can, due to its incredible coverage, break many of the Flying resists that don't mind Unfezant like Coalossal and Rhydon. This makes the two amazing partners for Flying-spam teams and should be a force to be reckoned with.

C --> B-/B
So like, what is your switchin? I'm dead serious, Lycranrock has like one viable(there is stuff like Runerigus but meh) safe switchin which is Tangela and that is only safe as long as it doesn't get knocked (which isn't hard to do). Offensive Rock types are really scary to switch into if you don't have a Tangela and Lycanroc sticks out because it has a reliable strong STAB move. The main pokemon Lycanroc competes with is Kabutops as they share quite some things but also differentiate themself. While both have incredible coverage and priority, Lycanroc is faster, more reliable with its strongest STAB and has with Close Combat a move that is basically like a secondary STAB. But Kabutops still has more tricks up its sleeve which gives it still a slight edge over Lycanroc overall.

 

[third bonnie]

my first time doing this, here goes

Gourgeist-Super from C to B-/B?

if your team has a defogger and you have issues with physical attackers, this thing feels insane. No item, has Poltergeist against, honestly, most of the ladder, regen in synthesis, disruption in will-o-wisp and many, many different options if you don't need either of the things - explosion, toxic, shadow sneak, rock slide, leech seed, foul play, the list goes on.
Hindering Sawk, Cinccino and a lot of physical powerhouses in the tier is really, really good. It's nowhere near on the level of Tangela or Eldegoss with their Regenerators and valuable tech options they offer, but with rapid spin negation, taking 0 damage from fighting and normal stabs and a better matchup into the physical attackers (some listed below) with means to render them even more useless, it has a niche thatis worth exploring and is underrated in this meta. It also stands out in that it uses physical attack itself (as opposed to what Tangy or Eldegoss do)

some calcs

252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 67-79 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO, guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 110-130 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- approx. 1% chance to 3HKO, approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 108-128 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO, 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 204-241 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Silvally-Flying Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 200-236 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and will live 2 hits if WoW hits)

the only one in the most prominent physical attackers that hurts is Banded Unfezant which OHKOs after rocks, but if you burn on switch-in or cover flying type well with other things you should still be okay

i've used it a lot and it has yet to disappoint me, i know it's not the best indicator it's better than what would its rank suggest, but still

tl;dr
+ giga wall that doubles as rapid spin block and fares better against physical attackers of the meta without the need for eviolite
+ makes them even worse (with an exception of occasional Flareon and Rapidash) with Will-o-Wisp
+/- does physical damage rather than special
- loses out on regenerator and rapid spin/knock off/giga drain staying power and utility

 

[Tuthur]

VR update eventually happened omg omg

voting sheet for those interested

rises:
from A to A+
from A- to A
from B+ to A+
from B+ to A-
from B+ to A-
from B+ to A
from B to B+
(flying) from B- to B
from C to B
from C to B
(super) from C to C+

drops:
from S to A+
from A- to B+
from B+ to B
from B to C+

Most of these shifts are a direct consequence from the ban of Aurorus and Alolan Sandslash. Without them, Articuno, Rapidash, Tangela, and Cramorant are more practical walls. Klinklang, Perrserker, and Alolan Dugtrio face less competition as Steel-types now that the best one is gone. While Qwilfish now faces less competition as a Spikes setter, it struggles versus Articuno and used to be a staple of Hail-teams. Abomasnow is quite hard to justify currently without Slush Rush partners and with Articuno's growing popularity, but remains a decent wallbreaker.

 

[master oden]

Alright, we need to talk about how this meta is in shambles because of one mon. It's time to pull the cat out of the bag.

<---This fuckin mon

Now, I'm not saying that Fur Coat Persian is the problem. Oh, I wish it was. Instead, the technician beat up choice banded persian set is BROKEN and needs to be BANNED asap. I'm very surprised no one talked about the beat up band set that terrorizes the ladder.


Persian-Alola @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beat Up
- U-turn
- Switcheroo
- Play Rough

This is NASTY! All but one fighting and dark types can't switchin to beat up in fear of being switcheroo'd or played rough. So this mon gets the FREE technician, stab, choice banded beat up to SPAM on neutral targets. It even gets the broken ass u-turn to SPAM for FREE if the user is too pussy(like the mon) to click anything that isnt a pivot move. How have people not seen this shit yet??? It's so broken, so easy to use, so easy to build teams with it, and SO HARD TO BEAT.

Anyway for the meantime, the VR is a bit outdated after i found this busted ass set. So, I'll suggest some rises and drops that truely reflect the dire state our meta is rn because of this mon...

Sawk: S--->UR
Fighting type that cant switch into play rough. Terrible poke.
Rotom: S---> C-
Niche at best, gets outsped and mollywhopped by the beast.
Skunktank: A- --> S+
Our best persian switch, doesnt give a shit about being tricked and even poisons it with black sludge if it tries.
Mawile: UR --> S
Second best persian switch. Doesn't like trick too much tho unless banded set.
Shiinotic: C --> S-
Also a good persian switch, but HATES being tricked a band.

There's def a lot of other things that deserve rises and drops in this new "metagame" but those are the ones that i thought of rn. Persian-A is too busted, plz ban.... is warping our tier....

​

 

[viet noa]

i'm surprised i haven't made a single vr post in 2022


Froslass: A
Nobody can deny just how good Froslass is in this metagame. However, as I've said before, I'm not convinced that Froslass is necessarily broken. It doesn't have the strength to always get past defensive staples like Miltank, Poliwrath, Piloswine, and Rapidash on a consistent basis. With moves like Taunt and Trick, though, it can definitely find ways to finesse past its checks. That's without a doubt, and I think that's what makes it an A tier mon, but teams can play around it through scaring it from switching in. That, alongside defensive counterplay that works to a decent enough extent, means that Froslass can be contained in a way that prevents it from being broken.


Miltank: A+ to S
In my opinion, one of the only mons holding this tier's stability together is Miltank. With Thick Fat, Sap Sipper, good bulk, and good Speed, Miltank has the utility to just about do it all defensively. It functions greatly as a special wall, mixed wall, hazard setter, cleric, and even revenge killer with Nascar Cow sets. With Wishiwashi and Eldegoss gone, Miltank now holds more responsibility for checking top tiers like Jynx, Thwackey, and more. Almost every team highly benefits from using Miltank, as its role compression is almost as significant as Uxie in early 2021.


Poliwrath: A- to A
I've consistently been doubting Poliwrath for a while, but it's about time that I give it the recognition it deserves. As a bulky Water-type Pokémon, Wishiwashi gave it immense competition, but Poliwrath now has full spotlight with it gone. Poliwrath's biggest strength is its ability to stifle VoltTurn strategies with Circle Throw and Rocky Helmet, and its ability to absorb Knock Off like no other. As the metagame evolves, I'm sure that Poliwrath will be an essential defensive piece to keep top tiers in check. These will include Rapidash, Basculin, Froslass, and Rhydon. And that's without mentioning its Choice Specs set, which is deceivingly strong.

Other Noms:
up to A+
up to A+
down to B

i have more noms but i dont wanna get too crazy lol

 

[Corthius]

A/A+ ; but leaning A
https://pokepast.es/9f192fb6ea8a266a These are the sets I think will be the most common, but they may vary in the future and it is possible that I missed something. Feel free to point them out to me.
Initially thinking it is broken, CB Froslass really isn't as good as I first thought it would be. Don't get me wrong, it has two incredible STAB moves but honestly due to the base 80 atk stat they only boost it to be averagely/a little bit above average with its damage output. Ice Shard is nice as priority but it isn't on the same level of our other options. In general in my eyes Spikes sets are a lot more consistent in the metagame, especially given how poorly our removal options are versus it. Offense is on the rise and having that base 110 speed + a ton of useful utility makes it an immediate staple for said archetype. Other annoyances like Sub + Disable can be played around similary to Sub Toxic Alolan Dugtrio.
Overall a great pokemon that could also deserve to be A+ once the meta settled more.

A+ -> A
The king fell off :pensive:
A lot of current trends I see really go against Qwilfish's favor. Froslass directly competes with it as a Spikes setter and is in my eyes more reliable in doing so. Additionally, Wishiwashi and Eldegoss rising made special Water types like Choice Specs Poliwrath and Basculin a lot better which aren't bothered by Qwilfish. Special wallbreaker in general got better now and thus Qwilfish struggles to hold up with the other A+ pokemon. While Klinklang is running the meta right now, it is worse in checking that compared to Perrserker because of Clear Body and potential Wild Charge.

A+ -> A
A similar story to Qwilfish in my eyes. Sweeping Silvally forms aren't really common unless they are mixed anyway or Corthvally making it harder to just blanket them. The still pivot reliant metagame is really unfavorable for Tangela when pokemon like Jynx and Klinklang are top threats which you don't want to give to many opportunities on the field. The rise of Eldegoss seemed to be a win but the pokemon I mentioned for Qwilfish, Basculine, Poliwrath and other special Water types, all don't fear Tangela switching in. Knock Off + Sleep Powder is still broken but Sap Sipper Miltank has become incredibly common which blankets Tangela pretty much besides Sludge Bomb and rare Toxic. Just like Qwilfish I still value what it brings to the table.

A -> A-
Altaria feels really hard to use right now. It is a defogger that has a really hard time actually using Defog. The addition of another Spiker denying its hazard removal only made this worse, but it also has a bad matchup versus Rhydon which became arguably better as a Stealth rock setter with Eldegoss rising. You also lose to metathreats Klinklang and Jynx unless you run niche Flamethrower which makes it less reliable as your Fighting answer overall. The offensive Water types running Ice Beam doesn't help either.

A -> A+
Best Steel type in the tier. Checks a variety of threats and can function as an incredible wincon which gets supported by many of the tiers other offensive threats. I haven't tried defensive sets yet but they could be promising as well, making it easier to beat Lovely Kiss Jynx with Sleep Talk. I don't think there is much else to say, just incredibly splashable and consistent.

A- -> A & B+ -> A
I briefly touched on this already. Both benefit a lot from Wishwashi and Eldegoss leaving the tier because special Water type attacks just got so much better as a whole. Basculin still struggles with Poliwrath and other Water immunities like Jynx, but it doesn't have to run Choice Specs, can pick Mystical Water instead and blow it back with Head Smash / Crunch. A mixed set that can also hit Poliwrath sounds really irritating to face. Poliwrath makes perfect use of its other STAB with Focus Blast being really hard to switch into, especially considering Ice Beam hitting everything that isn't already.

B+ -> A-
I mentioned this in the Discord but Dark types faster than Jynx (and in this case even Froslass) should see an uprise in usage. Being immune to Psychic and resisting Ghost allows for some niffy 50/50s that you can lift into your favor with the right team support and plays. Knock Off + Parting Shot makes for amazing BO support and its high Speed stat means it can act as a reliable revengekiller. Foul Play also discourages the use of Swords Dance sweeper on the opposing team. Make sure to properly cover its weaknesses tho since its special defense is exploidable.

B -> B+/A- ; leaning towards B+
Coalossal never really stood out to me because it was a special wall that still requires additional help versus the likes of Rotom and other Volt Switch user. Eldegoss and Frosmoth rising should also hinder its viability and yes of course these will be missed, but in return you are one of the few entry hazard remover that can semi reliably deal with Froslass unless it is Destiny Bond. You are also excellent at switching into Choice Band as Poltergeist does 3HKO (unless we decide it is mixed/physdef time) but you pretty much never allow it to click Triple Axel because of Flame Body. Klinklang being more common now also makes Flame Body more relevant than before. Pretty much Coal is relevant because it checks many top tier pokemon (Jynx as well), maybe it is more of a anti-meta pick but it still does what its supposed to. It has pretty big flaws I won't deny that.

B -> B+
This is somewhat of a mix between why I believe Alolan Persian and Coalossal got better in the recent tier shit. Morpeko benefits from Eldegoss leaving the tier as it remains as one of the best options as a Rapid Spin user that has great synergy with the new Froslass. It also scares out Froslass (if Morpeko is at full) and thus can potentially get rid of entry hazards. Being faster than the base 95's was always useful but now that Jynx seems to be public enemy #1 it is more important than ever. It also has access to Parting Shot making it better fit on BO/Offense to aid its teammates.

C -> C+/B- ; leaning towards C+ & (grass) UR -> C/C+ ; leaning towards C+
Rhydon's Stealth Rock are really hard to remove. Eldegoss was highly consistent with it but without it, many teams struggle to do so. Lurantis and Silvally-Grass find their niche by doing exactly that. They have varying utility but I wouldn't say one is better than the other. Lurantis has reliable recovery and the potential to easily overwhelm unprepared teams with the combination of Superpower + Leaf Storm, while Silvally-Grass offers more speed and pivoting. Silvally-Grass' speed means it can speed tie with Jynx, potentially OHKOing it even with uninvested Multi-Attack. They aren't anything crazy but they still fill the niche of being bulky Grass types with hazard removal.


That's it for now, zu later.