Resource SS ZU Viability Rankings v2 - Update @236

[viet noa]

up to A
this thing is a fucking demon, and one of the best offensive defog users, and offensive pivots in general, in the tier. even with no defensive investment, its resistances to boltbeam and immunity to ground gives it lots of defensive utility. this works extremely well in tandem with pain split, which gives it lots of longevity alongside the ability to passively wear down foes. blizzard might be a bit inconsistent, but it genuinely hits incredibly hard. volt switch is about as useful as you can imagine, and the threat of those attacks makes it easy for rotom-frost to get defogs off in a game. even a defog-less set with wisp in replacement honestly works well enough to justify using. there’s also nasty plot variants, which are certainly worth mentioning due to extrapolating rotom-frost’s already potent special attack.
up to B
i can understand why stunfisk fell to b-, but it feels far more reliable than its fellow b- tier pokémon. although it is weak to some common types in the tier, being immune to volt switch is enough to justify its niche as a stealth rock setter. pain split works well with its respectable bulk, and works even better with static, making it consistently threat voltturn cores. i think it has underrated potential as a physical wall, as its resistances mainly come on the physical side (stone edge, iron head, etc). even if it is vulnerable to many breakers, max defense allows it to switch into prominent physical threats like silk scarf kangaskhan (survives 2 double edges) and scarf sawk (survives 2 eq’s), while still halting volt switch users like rotom and manectric.
my opinion on C tier: clean it up, and trim it down.
i can understand that there will always be pokémon with specific niches that technically work. in all honesty, over the past few weeks i’ve been experimenting with teams built around low tier pokémon. by doing this though, i realized just how much of a downgrade most c tier pokémon are, in comparison to b tiers that are well established in the meta.
example: to UR (yes i know i’ve defended it before)
as an example, i wanted to take advantage of boltund’s fantastic speed tier and ability to make it a physical breaker that can pivot. i was able to make a decent supporting cast, complete with pokémon who we know are very good at what they do. unfortunately, even an adamant banded boltund is barely even able to OHKO opposing boltunds, and that’s only if you have psychic fangs. that’s how pitifully weak it is.
i feel like with the exception of a few actually good ones, many of the lower ranked pokémon gotta go.

 

[btboy]

to B

Lurantis is really underrated in the current meta right now, in my opinion. While there is admittedly a Grass-type opportunity cost that generally makes it an inferior pick to Tangela on balance compositions, for example, it has a lot of utility to offer more offensively-oriented teams. That said, you are using Lurantis to fulfill different role(s) than Tangela and Gourgeist-Small, so there are legitimate reasons to opt for the mantis over the spaghetti or the autumnal squash. Anways, let's get into it.

Rhydon is currently the tier's preeminent rocker and Lurantis has no problem switching into Rhydon and either 1) threatening it out and defogging, or 2) using it for setup fodder. And because Lurantis is not hazard-weak, losing its item does not cripple it like Altaria, Articuno, and Cramorant are crippled if they lose Heavy-Duty Boots. Being able to keep rocks down is really valuable in a tier which is collectively placing a premium on Stealth Rock setters who pressure opposing hazard removers.

Another thing that Lurantis does very well is counter Alcremie. If EV'd correctly, it can switch in and win the setup war vs. both the Double Dance and Calm Mind Alcremie variants. I was very skeptical when kay told me this, but it absolutely will switch into Alcremie and consistently beat it.

Both Rhydon and Alcremie are arguably top ten ZU Pokemon right now, and Lurantis has very strong matchups against them. I think that's notable.

Furthermore, Lurantis can be a very nice secondary or tertiary wincon and thrives in the right matchups. For example, it does really well against teams whose Grass resist isn't a bird. And unlike the tier's other Contrary sweeper, the B-ranked Malamar, its setup efforts cannot be thwarted by Ghost-types like Cofagrigus and Jellicent. It is also not reliant on RestTalk and generally has decent bulk (70/90/90) and longevity thanks to Synthesis.

Lurantis also wins some intuitively unfavorable matchups. Something I found interesting was that Lurantis cannot be countered by bulky Rapidash variants thanks to the defense boost from Contrary and Superpower. If you skip to turn 26 of this battle vs. Terreitor, you can see that Rapidash was not able to break Lurantis after switching into Superpower, thus paving the way for Alcremie to seal the win late.

Lurantis just generally creates a weird dynamic against would-be checks because they cannot switch in - hence why they are checks and not counters - and also struggle to answer it and revenge teammates if Lurantis secures a boost.

Its defensive counterplay is largely limited to Silvally-Poison and Flying-types like Articuno, Altaria, and Rotom-S. And if you don't need Defog on Lurantis, you can opt for Knock Off to better pressure said Flying-types. Again, the four aforementioned Pokemon are fairly common in ZU right now, and while they do cap Lurantis's ceiling, their ubiquity also means that well-built teams have ways to pressure them. In that sense, Lurantis requires less dedicated support than most ~C tier Pokemon.

I just don't think a Pokemon with the utility and offensive presence of Lurantis deserves to be in C-, especially when you consider how favorable its matchups are vs. some of the tier's best Pokemon and select team compositions. Yes, there's a Grass-type opportunity cost associated with Lurantis, but it's a really nice pick for certain builds and I would encourage more people to try it out.

 

[Ampharo]

Ninetails B+>A-/A

Look at everything from A- to A+ and tell me this pokemon is B+. There are only two things that can defensively check a +2 Ninetails, being Miltank and Altaria, and then pyukumuku is hardly relevant outside of stall, and wishiwashi has to be almost completely healthy. On top of all that it can force out so many prevalent pokemon for nasty plots boosts and it can easily net itself these opportunities by pairing with silvally grounds/thwackeys uturn.What in B+ is as hard to wall? Then you're limited for revenge options because of its speed tier, rotom being extremely shaky because of Ninetails's spdef, scarf-geist won't do it, kanga priority fake out + sucker does 70 MAX, so your only really solid answers are rock blast cinc, scarf sawk, aqua jet basc, and defensive rapidash (max atk isn't 100% answer, ninetails needs chip). Please put this mon where it deserves to be, you don't have to prepare for anything in B+ quite like ths monster

 

[Dr Ya Yeet]

Ground to UR
Bruh this thing is trash lmaooo legit stone walled by rotom who's the most used mon in the tier idk why people got it to A+ lol an actual joke tang sits on it after taking 30 from +6 ice beam lol it's so weak and frail and slow lmaooo

Ok fr
from C+ to B or B-

Imo this thing deserves to be higher now. It still had niches in the gvally meta, but now it's way better coz the competition from other defensive grasses like tang won't be as much, although still present. Previously you were forced to run tang/gourg etc for gvally which obv invalidated using another grass, but now no more. Also electrics in general are gonna be better, and this has good mus vs them bar frost. It also acts as a rocker that can pressure nearly all removers, so it's amazing in that regard too. An ideal set would proly be something like
Cradily @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge/Rock Blast
- Recover
- Toxic
The bit of phys def helps vs colbur gourgeist. Moves are fairly obvious with an option being power whip to really f up rhyd but tbh it isn't needed coz you have toxic+recover. It can safely check the likes of Kangaskhan, Rotom (even boosted hex doesn't do that much), Skunk(although questionable), tang(which gets toxic stalled if it stays in), articuno (spdef cuno to be exact), gourg(a bit), rhyd(as mentioned before), Manectric, Rotom Fan, Ninetales (beware of being chipped prior), amd annoys Basculin a lot coz storm drain but has to be aware of superpower/ice beam.
Overall, I think it's sort of a mixture of tang and rhydon, kinda as a compressor that can't do both but can do a good bit of both.

from UR to C+ at least

This thing literally checks half the meta considerably well lol. Its amazing ability bulletproof let's it take shadowy balls and sludgy bombs (along with other things but these are proly the most notable ones). Dragon typing is super good here , along with a sr resistance,dark resistance, etc. It can take on giants like tang, non hex rotom, rapidash, nine, skunk, thwackey, will-now-be-amazing Darkvally, amd although not a giant but shiftry, among others. One if its biggest issues is the reliance on rest for recovery, and potentially awkward place on a team, it's sub par as a dancer, bulk upper, aoa, etc, so what does it do?

It has a decent utility movepool, with stuff like taunt , toxic and *drumroll* dragon tail. It can be very annoying with a set of rest talk dtail and toxic, with variations depending on the team. It's effective on Hazard Stack, with the constant phazing even when resting, and it checking threats decently well, it's nice.

A big thorn in its side is alcremie. It can switch in easily, and setup while resting the status away. So you'll need solid cream checks. It's also likely to lose its item by trick rotom or knock tang, so be prepared for that.
But overall, I think it has a big enough niche to be ranked.

I have a replay, but it's from the suspect test, and I was on an account with random letters as my name >: , so it's not the best representation, I'll try to post more in the coming days I just haven't been able to play as much lately rip

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1387829217-thvyien61uwfv29w5cd46n3j0o74a0ypw

Found one less goo(ignore the fact that I lost I'm just trash and overpredict) vs thebtboy

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1394162001-20lpbvu4950tjl7hdzzz3487n6esrbtpw
You can see here how much work hak put in, it's very nice for passive damage

 

[5Dots]

UR -> C
The main reason to use Unfezant is to exploit the grass tax. Compared to most physical attackers, like Kangaskhan or Sawk, Unfezant does not care about Tangela and can nuke it with brave bird without much trouble. It even has some slight defensive utility with its typing resisting Gourgeist-Small’s STABs. In addition, its speed tier, while somewhat frustrating has perks: outpacing all rotom formes, Kangaskhan, Thievul, and Band Sawk is a valuable niche to have as a breaker, and with Silvally-Ground leaving the tier, it has one less foe to worry about. Unfezant also has interesting perks in access to an exceptionally powerful u-turn (only behind flapple), and priority in STAB Quick Attack to finish off weakened foes. Its sheer power allows it OHKO offensive mons like Rapidash, Ninetales, and Skuntank, while being forceful enough to make switching in an extremely difficult task:

Banded Bird Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 361-426 (108 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 373-441 (107.4 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 342-403 (119.1 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 150-177 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Perrserker: 135-159 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 162-192 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Unfezant Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Coalossal: 134-158 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 84.5% chance to 3HKO

Although it’s a smaller niche, Unfezant’s useful ability in Super Luck brings better chances to break through physical defensive pokemon like Double Dance Alcremie and Cofagrigus. Alcremie and Cofagrigus are two prominent defensive set-up sweepers that, normally will easily set up, but Unfezant provides an emergency option to break through if options like Haze or tailored checks are not options. It can even deviate from its flagship Band set and run a Boots set with Roost (replacing Facade) to continue being a threatening presence, another niche that maintains its high power while being more dependable in longer games. When all the stars align, it can be a destructive wallbreaker that can obliterate slower teams.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1385150302



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1385644716-yxh89dengzswvdh56v3l117z5vqg3h5pw



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1385652701



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1390076480-2kfj38xur1zt34tv3vmb461exz1i784pw

 

[JdRDMS]

(The last post wasn’t done, I have no idea why I posted it, probably another case of my stupidity. Even if it was done, it would’ve been too early. Either way, here’s my actually finished post.)

It's your resident idiotic moron back with some more noms, and this time it’s a rapid-fire style post! Around half of these are strictly related to Groundvally’s ban, and the other half I would've posted regardless. Anyway, let’s get started!

Changes directly related or mostly related to Groundvally’s ban:

Shiinotic: C- -> UR
This thing is soooo bad. Its stats are terrible, and it's outclassed by Tangela and even Bellossom. I really don't see the benefit of Fairy-typing outside of not being weak to Bug, which is pretty pointless now that Groundvally is banned. Most other U-Turn users, outside of the other SD Vallys, can’t threaten Tangela with the move anyway. Dark and especially Fighting aren't exactly valuable resistances over Tangela, and Dragon-type moves are nearly nonexistent in the current meta. It also comes at the cost of being weak to Steel, which isn’t that uncommon, and being destroyed by Poison, especially combined with weak bulk. And if Shiinotic isn't defensive, it's outclassed by pretty much every Grass-type in the tier. Its coverage is also garbage, its sets are predictable, and it can't learn Knock Off, but even that can be overcome by a competently-made team. Weak bulk also forces it to spam Strength Sap most of the time. Just, please get this thing off the VR. Even with Groundvally, I would still be hesitant about ranking it, but now Groundvally’s gone, so there’s no reason to consider this.


Stunfisk: B- -> B: Agree
This thing really appreciated Groundvally being banned. Firstly, Groundvally itself nuked Stunfisk. And secondly, Electric-types becoming more common means that Stunfisk’s Ground-typing can be put to good use. To sum it up, Stunfisk just has a lot more room to breathe now. hiss explained above other reasons that make it good, but Groundvally leaving cemented the fact that it should rise. I would nom Galarian Stunfisk up as well, but that thing is really passive and can't learn Toxic, among other flaws, so I think it should stay in C+.


Eldegoss: C -> C-/UR
Like Shinotic, Eldegoss isn’t as valuable without Groundvally. It’s really passive, outclassed by Tangela for physical sets, and outclassed by most special walls on special sets. I’m a little hesitant to outright unrank it, as being a Cleric and Spinner in one is nice, but I can see the argument.


Gorgeist-Small: A -> A-
Part of what made Smallgeist so good was that it was a consistent check to Groundvally, this time for offense teams. Now that Groundvally is gone, Smallgeist isn’t as insanely valuable. It's really weak to Knock Off, has mediocre physical bulk, and weak special bulk, which can be dangerous if Geist fails to OHKO its target, and Poltergeist isn't the best move in a Knock-heavy meta like ours. Don’t get me wrong, it is still good, with nice set variety, decent sets, and a good Speed tier, but I don’t think it’s as good as the other mons in A without Groundvally.


Gourgeist-Super: C -> C-
Do I need to repeat myself again? Fine: Groundvally's gone, and it’s generally outclassed by Tangela. Ghost-typing can be nice, as it allows Gourg to be neutral to Bug and Poison and immune to Normal and Fighting, but it makes it weak to Dark (read: Knock Off and a few other things) and Ghost in exchange. Like with Eldegoss, I'm not sure Supergeist should be unranked, but without Groundvally, it shouldn’t be above C-.


Skuntank: A- -> A
This thing was already a great special breaker, but now that Groundvally’s gone, it has a lot more room to breathe, just like Stunfisk. Previously, if the opponent had a Silvally, Skuntank couldn’t click NP safely for fear of Groundvally coming in and OHKOing it with no effort, but that’s not a worry anymore. It also offers a lot of utility, with the option of running Taunt to ruin the day of stall, or Fire Blast for added coverage for Steel-types. Aftermath is also a nice ability, punishing contact moves pretty well. I think it’s bulk being just okay is the main thing keeping it out of A+. Other than that though, the skunk is a great special breaker, and Groundvally leaving has made it even better.

Changes somewhat related or unrelated to Groundvally’s Ban

Drifblim: C -> C-
I take back what I said in my pre-overhaul post. C was too generous. Drifblim has mediocre Speed and pretty weak bulk. Electric Terrain is hard to use, and it's still practically in its baby stage. And outside of ETerrain, Drifblim needs a LOT of support to do anything. It's also got a lot of weaknesses, including Electric, which is a very common type in the tier. For example, Rotom can do 46% minimum with Volt Switch if Drifblim is at +1, and that's not the Specs set. Also, Electric-type moves will likely become easier to use thanks to Groundvally leaving. Also also, even inside Terrain, Drifblim is outclassed by Swoobat. Strength Sap is a nice niche, but I don't think that should put it above C-.


Ludicolo: C -> C-/UR
Rain is dead, please just let go. It's hella bad and outclassed outside of Rain, as it's just too slow, has meh strength and special bulk and weak physical bulk. It also has one of the most rigid sets of all time, as literally anything else will make it even worse, and that one set isn’t even good. Why would you want to use this again?


Coalossal: B -> B-
I don't really have much reasoning for this. I just think that Coal should've dropped to B- in the last update. Centiskorch is gone, and that's already a bit of a nerf, but now Fires are gonna be running Ground coverage. In addition, Grassy Terrain, which has been dead for a while now, declining in presence means that its Earthquake weakness is pretty permanent, and despite what it’s appearance might tell you, its strength isn’t amazing either (this really doesn’t look like a mon with base 80 Attack stats, at least to me). Groundvally leaving is nice though, I guess, and being a spinner that isn’t frail is also appreciated. Coalossal isn't terrible, in fact it's still definitely decent, but I think B is just overselling it.


Silvally-Fighting: C -> C-
Again, don't have much to say. While I can see the appeal behind Silvally's movepool, I still feel like Fightingvally faces too much competition from other Fighting-types, namely Sawk and Gurdurr, and those don't come at the cost of a Silvally form. Yes, this mon does have its niches, but I feel C is a bit much due to how much competition this thing has.


Ditto: C -> C-
Ditto can be fun, especially against bad players, but its reliance on Choice Scarf makes it fairly easy to play around. It also just lost a big set-up sweeper in Groundvally. Again, it can be fun to use, and it is pretty anti-meta, so it should stay ranked, but the blob is just too gimmicky.


Boltund: C -> C-
I would agree with this going to UR, but this ugly dog appreciated Groundvally leaving. It’s got a great Speed tier, and it can be an effective cleaner, especially against offense, but outside of that, it’s pretty weak, Knock prone in all of its sets, the Band set is pretty easy to switch into, it’s really frail, and there are just better cleaners to use that actually work well early-game and/or against Stall. Again, I think UR is a bit much, as it can be a fairly effective non-Scarf cleaner in some cases, and Groundvally isn't here to make Boltund's life against offense miserable anymore, but it’s definitely not viable enough for C.


Ninetales: B+ -> A-: Agree
I know I previously said that Ninetales shouldn’t be in the A-ranks, but boy was I wrong. I think A is a bit much, but now I think A- is a very fair ranking for the fox. Ampharo explained it pretty well two posts above this, but I’ll state a few key points here. To start, it’s got a great speed tier. Viable mons that can naturally outspeed 328 (or base 100) are pretty rare. Ninetales also has decent special bulk (73/100), so setting up against unboosted special attacks isn’t super difficult if the fox is healthy. In exchange, however, Ninetales’s 98 Special Attack, combined with powerful moves, allows it to deal decent damage unboosted, and huge damage at +2. Speaking of those powerful moves, Fire Blast, Energy Ball, and Scorching Sands give it near-perfect coverage. The main thing keeping me from nomming this to A is weak physical bulk. I also wish Fire Blast was a bit more accurate, but I don’t think that’s a deal breaker. Overall, I now agree that Ninetales is way better than everything in B+, and while it does have flaws, I no longer think they’re enough to keep Ninetales out of A-.

I've never really done a rapid-fire-style nom post before, but by the standards of a first-time post and by the standards of my regular posts, I think this is serviceable. Have a nice day everyone!

P.S: ZUPL hype! See y’all at the auction!

 

[5Dots]

UR -> C
At first, Musharna appears to be outclassed by Alcremie due to a worse defensive typing, lack of Acid Armor/Iron defense, worse recovery in Moonlight, and lower speed. However, Musharna distinguishes itself well enough to boast superior bulk (in fact, it’s almost as bulky as Regigigas with 116/85/95 defenses compared to Alcremie’s 65/75/125 special bulk), as well as lack of a steel/poison weakness (Meaning it can more reliably take on the likes of SD Qwilfish and Silvally-Poison). It can still reliably check fighting types like Sawk and Gurdurr, especially with a Colbur Berry. Synchronize allows it to retaliate status against users like Articuno or Audino, which makes it less passive compared to Alcremie, which is especially user given how vulnerable most attackers/defensive Pokemon can be to status throughout the course of a game. However, after playing extensively with other players, it can reliably showcase its strengths through being one of Trick Room’s most reliable setters and attackers, where its rock-bottom speed can be a blessing. Psychic/Fairy coverage is hard to resist, and that’s also coming from a nifty base 107 special attack. Rare access to Healing Wish enables a teammate like Bouffalant, Marowak, or Beheeyem to continue their onslaught if affected by Toxic earlier. A lot of HO or most offensive teams lack the component to fully heal a teammate, and Musharna fills that uncontested niche.

UR -> C-
Speaking of Beheeyem, this enigma functions as one of TR’s best wallbreakers, able to threaten massive damage on most walls, as with it’s enormous base 130 special attack, Analytic, and awful speed, it is incredibly tough to switch into under Trick Room. Waters like Wishiwashi and Jellicent hate the thought of Energy Ball or Thunderbolt, Ghosts like Gourgeist and Cofagrigus despise Shadow Ball, and STAB Psychic hits like a nuke. Beheeyem can also run Life Orb to be a good Trick Room setter itself, making it more self-sufficient compared to other teammates like Marowak and Cursola. Beheeyem, at first glance, might appear to be worn down quickly due to being forced to choose Specs or Life Orb for damage output, but I believe there’s one set that deserves some merit from testing today:

Power Herb + Meteor Beam.

Not only does Beheeyem get power equivalent to the already terrifying specs, it also gains the benefit of switching between its powerful coverage moves, which is nearly impossible to safely switch into. This can be used as a nuke against the likes of Articuno, Coal, and Altaria looking to Defog/Spin the hazards set by Carbink. Here are Calcs in regards to Beheeyem’s capabilities:

UglyHead Calcs

+1 252+ SpA Beheeyem Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Coalossal: 456-538 (107.8 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 215-254 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Meteor Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 283-333 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While still being niche, Beheeyem and Musharna have places that can beat archetypes like HO, teams reliant on fast-paced offensive teams, and Sun.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1395334294-ej0xpgxnhypf2ubbonrun8pu0wrp22npw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1396752383

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1397158034-pp39xi6b4tt63wsf4h49y58uypzolv9pw

 

[viet noa]

UR -> C
At first, Musharna appears to be outclassed by Alcremie due to a worse defensive typing, lack of Acid Armor/Iron defense, worse recovery in Moonlight, and lower speed. However, Musharna distinguishes itself well enough to boast superior bulk (in fact, it’s almost as bulky as Regigigas with 116/85/95 defenses compared to Alcremie’s 65/75/125 special bulk), as well as lack of a steel/poison weakness (Meaning it can more reliably take on the likes of SD Qwilfish and Silvally-Poison). It can still reliably check fighting types like Sawk and Gurdurr, especially with a Colbur Berry. Synchronize allows it to retaliate status against users like Articuno or Audino, which makes it less passive compared to Alcremie, which is especially user given how vulnerable most attackers/defensive Pokemon can be to status throughout the course of a game. However, after playing extensively with other players, it can reliably showcase its strengths through being one of Trick Room’s most reliable setters and attackers, where its rock-bottom speed can be a blessing. Psychic/Fairy coverage is hard to resist, and that’s also coming from a nifty base 107 special attack. Rare access to Healing Wish enables a teammate like Bouffalant, Marowak, or Beheeyem to continue their onslaught if affected by Toxic earlier. A lot of HO or most offensive teams lack the component to fully heal a teammate, and Musharna fills that uncontested niche.

UR -> C-
Speaking of Beheeyem, this enigma functions as one of TR’s best wallbreakers, able to threaten massive damage on most walls, as with it’s enormous base 130 special attack, Analytic, and awful speed, it is incredibly tough to switch into under Trick Room. Waters like Wishiwashi and Jellicent hate the thought of Energy Ball or Thunderbolt, Ghosts like Gourgeist and Cofagrigus despise Shadow Ball, and STAB Psychic hits like a nuke. Beheeyem can also run Life Orb to be a good Trick Room setter itself, making it more self-sufficient compared to other teammates like Marowak and Cursola. Beheeyem, at first glance, might appear to be worn down quickly due to being forced to choose Specs or Life Orb for damage output, but I believe there’s one set that deserves some merit from testing today:

Power Herb + Meteor Beam.

Not only does Beheeyem get power equivalent to the already terrifying specs, it also gains the benefit of switching between its powerful coverage moves, which is nearly impossible to safely switch into. This can be used as a nuke against the likes of Articuno, Coal, and Altaria looking to Defog/Spin the hazards set by Carbink. Here are Calcs in regards to Beheeyem’s capabilities:

UglyHead Calcs

+1 252+ SpA Beheeyem Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Coalossal: 456-538 (107.8 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 215-254 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Meteor Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 283-333 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While still being niche, Beheeyem and Musharna have places that can beat archetypes like HO, teams reliant on fast-paced offensive teams, and Sun.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1395334294-ej0xpgxnhypf2ubbonrun8pu0wrp22npw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1396752383

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1397158034-pp39xi6b4tt63wsf4h49y58uypzolv9pw

i hate being that person, and i appreciate your explanations, but i don’t necessarily agree with your nominations at all.

even if musharna is a okay trick room setter, i’m not convinced that trick room is anything more than just a gimmick. while musharna’s bulk seems great on paper, its lack of resistances and weakness to common offensive types makes it more weak than it should be.

calcs

252 Atk Gourgeist-Small Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 218-258 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Dark Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Musharna: 253-298 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 218-260 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna in Grassy Terrain: 252-297 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 200-240 (45.8 - 55%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 216-255 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Skuntank Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 205-243 (47 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Colbur Berry Musharna: 340-402 (77.9 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

as for beheeyem, even if you’re using it in trick room, i wouldn’t call it a premier threat on an already very niche archetype. and with its mediocre bulk, it’s very easy to be revenge killed after trick room even with max hp. in my opinion, the premier trick room ‘threats’ would be rhydon, perrserker, cofagrigus, spiritomb, and maybe cursola.

i’m sorry if my post is coming off as rude, but i posted this bc i think this is an interesting discussion. i personally strongly want to trim down c tier, but i can understand why some would want to add to it.

 

[Tuthur]

Ninetales, Rotom-Frost, and Skuntank should all rise to at least A. They are amazing right now.
B+ -> A
B+ -> A
A- -> A

Unfezant and Musharna are defenitely deserving to be ranked.
UR -> C+
UR -> C

Tangela and Gourgeist-Small are far less useful than before since the Ground-checks are much more diverse. Tangela is just like any other good wall and Gourgeist-Small a good breaker that has a shitty Knock Off synergy but great STAB combination.
A+ -> A
(small) A -> B+

Qwilfish really sucks compared to the other walls and spikers available. It can't check Fire- and Ice-types despite its typing, can't wall Kangaskhan despite being a physical wall, overall other bulky waters like Wishiwashi, Cramorant, and Jellicent are just better.
A -> B+
Edit: SD is B+ worthy. Forgot about this set when originally writing the nom.

Altaria on the contrary is awesome. I don't know why we thought it was going to suck without Centiskorch, because it is still amazing and one of the few Pokemon able to handle Ninetales AND Rapidash. This mon really does a lot for role compression as a Fire-, Grass-, and Fighting-check, status absorber and hazard remover.
B+ -> A

The competition for the Vally slot is far less strong than before. The best ones need to rise.
(dark) A- -> A+
(poison) B+ -> A

Defensive Uxie is even less good than before since it can't even generate momentum on GroundVally and still is a mediocre Stealth Rock setter.
A -> A-

 

[5Dots]

i hate being that person, and i appreciate your explanations, but i don’t necessarily agree with your nominations at all.

even if musharna is a okay trick room setter, i’m not convinced that trick room is anything more than just a gimmick. while musharna’s bulk seems great on paper, its lack of resistances and weakness to common offensive types makes it more weak than it should be.
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Dark Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Musharna: 253-298 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Colbur Berry Musharna: 340-402 (77.9 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 218-260 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 200-240 (45.8 - 55%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 216-255 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

My problem with these calcs is that most of these Pokemon can’t really switch into Musharna at all, even though the same can be said for Mushy. Like I said, 107 Special Attack isn’t an easy feat, and Musharna can have teammates like Body Press Carbink to help handle Silvally-Dark or Thievul. It’s also kind of weird to justify musharna as just a wall - it’s more than that, as it’s a supporting tank that can fill multiple roles throughout the game. Musharna can still reliably check fighters and tangela (if it hasn’t slept something) throughout the game, which can be more than said for others. In a 1v1 situation, most of the time when Mush is in, TR has been set up, which means it can still 1v1 pretty much all the foes you’ve mentioned regardless, with the exception of Choice Band Thwackey and Skuntank (and even so, they’re one-time switch-ins under TR.

Musharna adds more versatility than the eye normally meets, however. Utilizing its very high bulk, it can be a notable pivot with future sight. Compared to Uxie, the other Future Sight pivot, Musharna trades a Ground immunity and having slightly worse bulk in exchange for hitting harder, having access to reliable recovery, and being able to fight back against status users. It’s not easy to slot on teams, but I feel the benefits can still be worthwhile for consideration.

I understand how Beheeyem may definitely look unworthy of a slot due to TR’s mechanics and the competition, but its bulk is actually quite all right, since it all it needs is to be able to take standard hits like Rapidash’s Flare Blitz or Ninetales’ unboosted Fire Blast to perform well. Cursola is too frail on the physical side to perform consistently, while Spiritomb and Cofa’s lower offenses offset their higher bulk. Rhydon is supposed to act as a SR setter/tank and should stick to its role at that; Marowak offers more damage output in comparison. I’ve considered Perrserker, but it feels harder to fit since Physical walls like Tang and Coal can slow its progress down When using CB.

 

[kay]

B --> A-
This seems like a crazy jump but its literally our second to third best rocker in the tier depending on your stance on Miltank. Rocks uxie has been on a decline and Ferroseed remains awkward to build around. I'd personally call it a better rocker right now than Miltank as the defensive niches Stunfisk covers far outranges what Miltank is offering right now but I can't deny Miltank is definitely a close contender. I think the noms for B+ on stunfisk are really under selling just how everwhere it is right now and how needed a niche its filling as its dealing with all the vallies far better than its competition in Rhydon can while still offering a lot of what Rhydon offers.



A --> A+
Personally I think it should go into S, but baby steps. Rhydon is by far the best rocker in our tier thanks for its ability to beat all our removal bar Eldegoss and Lurantis, covers a large area of defensive niches, and is one of the premier offensive threats in the tier all at once. Its been a meta defining staple in the tier since Centiskorch meta and that meta impact hasn't changed in the slightest since then and I think its up there as a top 3 pokemon in the metagame currently



EDIT: Manectric needs to drop to like B- too. Its just awful rn.

UR -> C
At first, Musharna appears to be outclassed by Alcremie due to a worse defensive typing, lack of Acid Armor/Iron defense, worse recovery in Moonlight, and lower speed. However, Musharna distinguishes itself well enough to boast superior bulk (in fact, it’s almost as bulky as Regigigas with 116/85/95 defenses compared to Alcremie’s 65/75/125 special bulk), as well as lack of a steel/poison weakness (Meaning it can more reliably take on the likes of SD Qwilfish and Silvally-Poison). It can still reliably check fighting types like Sawk and Gurdurr, especially with a Colbur Berry. Synchronize allows it to retaliate status against users like Articuno or Audino, which makes it less passive compared to Alcremie, which is especially user given how vulnerable most attackers/defensive Pokemon can be to status throughout the course of a game. However, after playing extensively with other players, it can reliably showcase its strengths through being one of Trick Room’s most reliable setters and attackers, where its rock-bottom speed can be a blessing. Psychic/Fairy coverage is hard to resist, and that’s also coming from a nifty base 107 special attack. Rare access to Healing Wish enables a teammate like Bouffalant, Marowak, or Beheeyem to continue their onslaught if affected by Toxic earlier. A lot of HO or most offensive teams lack the component to fully heal a teammate, and Musharna fills that uncontested niche.

While I agree with the nom, I don't think TR is why it should be ranked. By far its best set is a defensive set abusing a stronger future sight than Uxie and utility options like Healing Wish and Heal Bell and is largely the reason I think it should be ranked. TR is kinda cool but its an extremely niche playstyle that I don't think makes pokemon viability ranks worthy just because it works on it. I do agree with the nom tho, Mushy is cool.

Eldegoss: C -> C-/UR
Like Shinotic, Eldegoss isn’t as valuable without Groundvally. It’s really passive, outclassed by Tangela for physical sets, and outclassed by most special walls on special sets. I’m a little hesitant to outright unrank it, as being a Cleric and Spinner in one is nice, but I can see the argument.

There seems to be some misconception that Eldegoss was used strictly for Vally-ground when in reality it was entirely for its niche for spinning on Rhydon which remains an invaluable niche that's only shared with Lurantis which is a lot less splashable than Eldegoss is. Its not out classed by Tangela whatsoever because the reason you use it is to spin on Rhydon which makes its niche totally separate from Tangela and is one worth justifying over Tangela when you need the removal. I'd soon nom it to C+ than drop it down.

Gourgeist-Super: C -> C-
Do I need to repeat myself again? Fine: Groundvally's gone, and it’s generally outclassed by Tangela. Ghost-typing can be nice, as it allows Gourg to be neutral to Bug and Poison and immune to Normal and Fighting, but it makes it weak to Dark (read: Knock Off and a few other things) and Ghost in exchange. Like with Eldegoss, I'm not sure Supergeist should be unranked, but without Groundvally, it shouldn’t be above C-.

I'll go over why I don't think small geist shouldn't drop in this part as I'll cover it later, but wanted to touch on this. You know it runs colbur and max HP right? Its not exactly weak to knock off as one of the main reasons you're using it is because its not crippled by knock off like other grass type walls (namely Tangela) which makes it a premier Sawk and Cinccino switch in, as well as defensive sets being a Kangaskan switch in. It pretty much checks all the boxes you use Tangela for outside Vally-dark but without being crippled by Knock Off while also having being able to wall things like Sub Klinklang that just use Tangela as set up fodder so you even get to change a lot of your match ups. I think you largely misunderstand why people use this mon and its not as simple as "ground vally gone, grass types now bad" because a lot of our grass types weren't solely there for Ground-vally.

Tangela and Gourgeist-Small are far less useful than before since the Ground-checks are much more diverse. Tangela is just like any other good wall and Gourgeist-Small a good breaker that has a shitty Knock Off synergy but great STAB combination.
A+ -> A
(small) A -> B+

So I know we're never going to see eye to eye on Tangela being more than "just another good wall" but one thing I want to actually talk about is the Geist small nomination. Because while yes, it does have anti-synergy with knock off, but what we've seen since Skorch meta passed is a lack of emphasis on knock off centered teams as a means to punish boots and more a shift to rockers that aren't straight up losing to these boots removal mons like Rhydon and Stunfisk. And its that shift that makes Geists inability to work with Knock Off not that much of a problem right now as it means you're really just locking yourself out of Thwacky focus teams which it already had a hard time fitting in thanks to the double grass core you'd have to work with, and kinda sawk teams which does hurt a bit but isn't the end of the world. CB geist is still a premier breaker in the tier right now and I don't think a mon like it should drop to B+


Pretty much support the rest of the noms tho

 

[viet noa]

My problem with these calcs is that most of these Pokemon can’t really switch into Musharna at all, even though the same can be said for Mushy. Like I said, 107 Special Attack isn’t an easy feat, and Musharna can have teammates like Body Press Carbink to help handle Silvally-Dark or Thievul. It’s also kind of weird to justify musharna as just a wall - it’s more than that, as it’s a supporting tank that can fill multiple roles throughout the game. Musharna can still reliably check fighters and tangela (if it hasn’t slept something) throughout the game, which can be more than said for others. In a 1v1 situation, most of the time when Mush is in, TR has been set up, which means it can still 1v1 pretty much all the foes you’ve mentioned regardless, with the exception of Choice Band Thwackey and Skuntank (and even so, they’re one-time switch-ins under TR.

Musharna adds more versatility than the eye normally meets, however. Utilizing its very high bulk, it can be a notable pivot with future sight. Compared to Uxie, the other Future Sight pivot, Musharna trades a Ground immunity and having slightly worse bulk in exchange for hitting harder, having access to reliable recovery, and being able to fight back against status users. It’s not easy to slot on teams, but I feel the benefits can still be worthwhile for consideration.

I understand how Beheeyem may definitely look unworthy of a slot due to TR’s mechanics and the competition, but its bulk is actually quite all right, since it all it needs is to be able to take standard hits like Rapidash’s Flare Blitz or Ninetales’ unboosted Fire Blast to perform well. Cursola is too frail on the physical side to perform consistently, while Spiritomb and Cofa’s lower offenses offset their higher bulk. Rhydon is supposed to act as a SR setter/tank and should stick to its role at that; Marowak offers more damage output in comparison. I’ve considered Perrserker, but it feels harder to fit since Physical walls like Tang and Coal can slow its progress down When using CB.

this is a fair point. i still feel like trick room isn’t viable even if you can ‘make it work’, but even if i still don’t agree, i can understand where you’re coming from.

anyways, some agreements:
up to B ~ Agree
up to A ~ Agree
up to A+ ~ Hard Agree
up to A ~ 1000% Agree
i honestly wanted to nom rotom frost to a tier on my last post, but i didn’t have the balls to do it lol

my own noms:
(Fighting) up to B-
silv fighting has all the benefits of all other silvally forms: decent coverage, all-around stats, great pivoting, and access to swords dance. what make silv fighting stand out to me is that compared to other fighting types, silv fighting can both set up and pivot. this is unique to the tier, and gives silv fighting lots of versatility throughout a game. its competition is great, but silv fighting’s role as an fighting type pivot with insane breaking potential is nothing to scoff at. i honestly like silvally-fighting on teams that already have an offensive dark type (where silv dark would be redundant), like shiftry/thievul.

up to A-
fantom has the most defensive utility out of the rotom forms. with the same access to pain split, defog, and wisp that each rotom form loves, added to by its great typing against close combats and earthquakes, fantom is an amazing defogger. i’ve honestly really enjoyed using defensive fantom, as it can annoy tf out of physical breakers while having the pivoting capabilities many defensive pokémon lack.

up to A
with silvally ground gone, skuntank’s biggest counter is removed from the tier. even better, the grass tax that surged, partially as a result of silvally ground’s rise, hasn’t left. because of how good many defensive grass types have turned out to be, even outside the context of checking silvally ground, skuntank loves this. it’s now a lot easier to slap skuntank onto balance and bulky offense teams, as it tears through defensive cores without having to worry about silvally ground anymore.

edit: out of all pokémon to drop to ur, eldegoss is not one of them lmao

 

[AstilCodex]

My turn! I will cover only Pokemon they haven't been mentioned, I don't think they have been brought the right way and the ones I've been testing and seeing success.

Rises:

A to A+. The team compression, utility and splashability that brings Rapidash I think deserves a rise as the main Fire-type in the tier. Both Tox and SD set are solid with access to the right coverage moves in Wild charge and High Horsepower and recovery in morning sun as well as inmunity to fire itself being a vally revenge killer for its natural speed, Alcremie, Thwackey check, Ice resist. Mon great and idt Rhydon has stopped it like it had done with other mons.

B to B+. Cram is our 3rd best dedicated defogger now and still a nice water and fire resist, alternative to Altaria it can come nicely enough on spikers like Sandslash-alola and beat them 1v1 for most part so its resistances and annoyance between Surf and ability makes it a decent pick. Also electric doesn't appreciate coming on Surf so it does make progress through battle.

B to B+. Ayee this mon is very very fun. I've been messing around with 2 sets being Sub and CB and it actually isnt bad. Having STAB freeze-dry in combination with the fishious makes it tough to blanket for mons like Tangela or Wishiwashi even Jellicent which forces to recover and it even tho is slow af it can find opportunities to come and force switch ins to get a Sub and do work. On the other hand I've been using Hail and after the right building it has put in ton of work. Unlike Basculin water inmunities may fear switching in and Cb under hail is a menace.

C to B. Raichu just has the tools to be a excellent choice as electric type now. Its a fast setup mon that beats Rhydon with access to Surf and can pressure Stunfisk with it and Tangela enough which doesnt appreciate a +2 Focus Blast. Still frail and may found hard to setup nicely but def better than Manectric now.

C- to B. This mon is so annoying to face lol. If u play one turn bad it can snowball through your mons and weaken you as because its combination of leaf + spower and natural bulk makes it annoying to play around and can really take you off guard. Also has nice utility in Koff and Defog so its definetly a strong choice.

UR to C+. Mush mush has its time back this time as imo is the best Future Sighter now and its very nice for specific teams as role compression in a somewhat consistent Sawk switch in and Psychic that punishes dark types with quite strong Moonblast. It can support the team with this combination + Heal bell for status or Hwish to bring a threat back to life. I find myself a lot more comfortable with doing Mush + rocker than Uxie now which hella sucks lol.

Drops:

A+ to A. I dont think this mon ever deserved to be that high in first place even with Whrilpool set which is an annoyance btw. Its standard revenge killing is what makes it for it but it has started to be a less common thing as bulkier rocker like Rhydon, Miltank and walls like Tangela remain high. It usually lacks the raw strength to break and it harder to fish for chip with this now.

A- to B. With the presence of Sandslash-Alola and Articuno still running bb. Rapidash being the main fire type that unlike Centiskorch it has reliable recovery which actually makes it worse really hard for Frosmoth to justify as a sweeper and now it will need a lot more of team support than before.

B+ to B-. Yh like basically rhydon and stunfisk being main rockers and ground types kinda sucks for it. Fire coverage is nice but is not what an electric type needs now and it also struggle to being an electric inmunity itself as it doesnt switch confidently into any electric not even itself lol

B+ to B-. I disagree with Hiss over here. Odd pick rn. Doesnt defog well on anything. Np sets can't do the thingy cuz Rhydon, Stunfisk yknow, weak to ice too. It can willo but still awkward.

B to B-. This mon just sucks now. No set can justify its uncapacity to hit or make any progress into the common water resists and inmunities meta has. Its so MU dependant to make work as if your opp has Jellicent, Arctovish or even Jynx you basically on a 50/50 every turn even with toxic it doesnt break through.

That will be all. May do some edits who knows. Have a nice day!

 

[czim]

Just a couple noms that i haven't seen yet

A to A- Rapidash is a bit out of place in the VR with how common stuff that pressures it are. Rhydon, Jellicent, Wishiwashi and Miltank are getting better and better and even though Qwilfish fell off a bit I just don't see how Rapidash can cover everything it wants to without compromising its defensive utility which is what put it on the A ranks in the first place.

A- to B+ Ferroseed is still good and checks a wide variety of threats but as good as its typing is on higher tiers, it doesn't help as much here. Being a grass-type that doesn't resist ground makes building with it very awkward without struggling vs Rhydon. Its also a Steel-type that doesn't resist Ice making it not such a durable check to threats like Jynx for example. The meta has also been favoring Taunt users like Jellicent and Skuntank, which makes Ferro more easy to force out, while threats that Ferroseed excelled at checking like Frosmoth and Kangaskhan aren't as good as they used to be. This seems out of place in the A ranks.

B to B- This has seen better days, there are just some trends that hurt its viability overall. First, there's competition from Slash-Alola as a bulky spinner that doubles as an ice and grass check. Second, defensive Water-types like Jellicent and Wishiwashi and Ground-types as rockers like Rhydon and Stunfisk getting better hurt the durability and effectivity of Coal. It still checks some stuff well like Vallies, Thwackey, Cuno, Cinccino, Tang and offers notable role compression to go anywhere lower than this, but I don't see it on par to other B ranks.

EDIT
UR to C- With Frostom becoming better to abuse all the Ice-weak Electric-checks being used in the meta its just obvious that Lanturn Seaking would become better in the process, being able to nullify everything that Frostom would try to do while gaining momentum on it and checking other special-attackers like Ninetales, Jynx, Rotom and Manectric. By no means this is great and most of the time its an inferior Wishiwashi due to its average bulk (especially because I've been using Toxic/Tect), but the role compression it offers is enough for C-, by compressing a slow pivot with access to Knock Off and a Volt Immunity, and honestly if Shiinotic is C- why shouldn't Seaking also be.

replays -> https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1399840057
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1399829511

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

48 hour deadline before update!

Get any last minute updates in now and we'll have an update right when ZUPL starts. There's a lot of great noms since last month's update. I don't have too much new to add so wait for the slate where I'll add my reasonings on everyone else's noms.

• This thing is undeniably threatening. I am scarred with how many Blizzards it hits vs me. It took awhile but everyone's finally on board with the risk / reward of its perfect dual STAB attacks and it's rewarding in spades.
• Piloswine hasn't had much talk compared to the other Ground-types, but I think with Groundvally gone + some other meta tendencies like Frostom and Skuntank being better, Pilo could deserve a rise. I really enjoy it on BO and it brings a unique mix of walling and offensive coverage whereas Rhydon is a bit more vulnerable, generally, and the Stunfisks are too passive.
• Maybe its just me but I haven't got Miltank to work well on any of my builds / haven't seen it work on my opp's teams ever. Being at A rank feels a little inflated even if it technically has all the tools to wall half the meta; 4mss and even 1 ability syndrome is super annoying.
• In general, all Silvally formes got a little better with Ground gone. It's tough to say if one in particular should be A or even A+ rank, but I'd argue Dark and Poison at the very least should be in the A ranks, and I am open for a lot more of the typings to fill the B and C ranks because the Silvally formula is almost always a good bet.

 

[viet noa]

last minute re-nominations:
up to A+, up to B-
rapidash is both a fantastic utility mon and offensive breaker, and thus every team style highly benefits from rapidash’s presence. crustle is a great offensive rocker/breaker that can destroy almost all defog users after a shell smash, and it stands out amongst the other c+ tier pokémon.

last minute noms:
up to A-
it’s the best check to offensive fire types like rapidash and ninetales, and although it’s still one of the most passive defog users, its defensive typing is more valuable than almost any other typing in this tier.
and down to B-
i hate saying this, because i love using them, but sadly the grass tax has really taken a toll on them.
and down to A
they’re still fantastic, but due to the grass tax, they still require a base level of team support. the rest of the pokémon that i think are a+ (rhydon, alcremie, tangela, rotom, rapidash) are the backbones of the tier, because they provide both massive team support and a threatening presence one can build around.
fuck it put in S tier
what is this thing? is it good? no. is it great? no. it’s a FUCKING DEMON

 

[UBTR]

Special Defensive Utility To C

I've never done a VR post before or really cared to. Anyone who's played against me knows I never run anything standard anyways. Upon doing my usual teambuilding of bad Pokémon, I realized one Pokémon I previously viewed as "bad" wasn't bad by any means at all. This Brings me to the title of the VR post, 4 reasons why Seaking has a legitimate niche and is good for the ZU meta.

Reason 1: Lightning Rod

Seaking is the ONLY water type in existence with the ability Lightning Rod. The need to counter electric types and volt switch is at an all time high in the meta game right now. In most cases you absolutely can't run a serious team without either a ground type, Bulky grass or an electric immunity to handle such threats. Below I will list a group of pokemon Seaking either counters, checks or walls.

Walls:
Counters:
Checks:


Reason 2: Flip Turn

Seaking comes in and gets ready to take a hit or effectively wall the opponent, and immediately gets out of there keeping it healthy and available for the rest of the battle. Many other Electric counters in the Tier don't have access to momentum abusing moves ( ) Forcing you to make a hard swap and risking your opponent making a devastating prediction that could cost you the game.


Reason 3: Knock Off

Knock off is literally so good on this thing. Seaking cripples everything from heavy duty boots to eviolite Pokémon and then just flip turns out into a Pokémon of your choice. Many other electric answers as I stated earlier can't do this either.

Reason 4: packs decent bulk for the tier

I'll leave some calcs below of how well Seaking can sponge hits as well as my standard set that I've abused thus far.

Seaking @ Leftovers  
Ability: Lightning Rod  
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD  
Careful Nature  
- Flip Turn  
- Knock Off  
- Protect/Haze
- Toxic

Rotom-Frost:  252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seaking: 64-76 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery 
Rotom:  252 SpA Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seaking: 88-105 (24.1 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (scarf most common set)
Raichu:  252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seaking: 110-131 (30.2 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 
4 Atk Seaking Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 99-117 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Manectric:  252 SpA Choice Specs Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seaking: 76-90 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery 
Rotom-Fan:  252 SpA Rotom-Fan Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seaking: 88-105 (24.1 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fun Replays
[Gen 8] ZU replay: UnBeatableTR43 vs. saltywooper - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
[Gen 8] ZU replay: UnBeatableTR43 vs. goodbra - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Update:

Thank you to AstilCodex for helping us out this round! See below the changes and my personal take on them. VR sheet.

Rises

B+ > A: It's a premier wall with phenomenal utility and good matchups. Besides just walling Grass- and Fire-types, Natural Cure makes it hard to take down, and Defogging is always a perk too. Sometimes Alt is the glue that walls everything, and even if Knock Off, Ice-types, and stallbreakers are annoying, walling the other half of the tier makes up for it.
B > B+: More teams are finding ways to get it in and punish. Offensive Ice coverage to back Fishous Rend also works well in this meta.
UR > C-: There's some matchups where Hakamo-o just can't be broken effectively / sets up on the entire defensive core–Tangela, Rapidash, Wishiwashi, Thwackey, and Alolan Persian have a hard time breaking its Substitute. It's a rare case of a unique typing + ability that goes unprepared for often, so we recognize it has some potential, albeit inconsistent and fishy.
C- > C+: Defog sets are decent good role compression on BO. Leaf Storm + Superpower is hard to wall.
UR > C: Future Sight + recoverable bulk, unique niche over Uxie.
B+ > A-
A > A+: New best Ground-type, it completes balance / BO as a Volt Switch immunity and catch-all bulky attacker.
B+ >A: Near impossible dual STAB, even with Blizzard's inaccuracy the sheer power of this combo makes it worth it. Defog, Nasty Plot, and Substitute sets all vary in what their checks are.
UR > C-: Hard counters the above lmao. Also, Knock Off utility + the Electric-type matchup is a minor niche over say Wishiwashi.
(Poison) B+ > A: Some of the best utility as teams need a consistent Poison-type to help check Fighting- and Fairy-types. Its coverage and utility also make it a safe bet even outside of the Alcremie matchup.
A- > A: It's back to A again. When it comes to Skuntank and where it lands in the A ranks, it's going to go back and forth with the defensive meta and player preference with wanting to fit it. So while something like Silvally-Poison also rose this update, the popularity of Thwackey + Skuntank solidifies Skuntank's raise as well.
B- > B+: Silvally-Ground is gone, Stunfisk walls a handful of A ranks and ensures stall doesn't lose to Skuntank. Somewhat of a wally-er Rhydon for passive / balance teams.
UR > C: Here's your Staraptor, bro. Flying-type breakers are always a decent gamble, try this one out with a special wallbreaker to pivot into.

Drops

B+ > B: Competition with the other formes + Flying-types, where does Rotom-S fit if not as a downgrade to others? It's place on VoltTurn is nicher than before.
B > B-: More Water-immune targets are being used + this drop follows a trend of Basculin dropping and not being used as much.
C > C-: Defensive Ground-types + Tangela are more popular.
B > B-: Nicher than before, can't wall Fire-types due to its Ground weakness, just hard to fit / justify.
C > C-: Less HO, less use on sem-stall, not exactly the meta for Ditto.
C > C-: Eseed teams aren't taking off.
A- > B+: There's more competition for its roles and its lack of passive recovery outside of Leech Seed makes it too easy to wear down.
A- > B+: Sweeps are harder to pull off when hard counters like Alolan Sandslash and Rapidash are guaranteed on virtually any competitive team these days.
(Small) A > A-: Pretty sure this drop is almost 100% because Silvally-Ground got banned.
A+ > A: Kanga teams are far from bad but it's not as dominating when its counters are prevalent and near impossible to break itself. That is, unless it goes for one of its trapping sets, but those sets are far from Kanga's full potential and if anything show that Kanga is getting harder to pull off.
C > C-
B+ > B-: There's a meta that wants Mane's great neutral coverage and fast Speed; this isn't that meta. Instead, forcing to Switcheroo if it wants to make meaningful progress against most special walls and Ground-types is a huge disadvantage and harder to play.
A > A-: No more mandatory need with Centiskorch gone, way more competition with Skuntank, Silvally-Poison, and Alolan Sandslah.
A > A-: Another downward trend, its multi-purpose slot isn't always necessary and players are getting more creative when it comes to finding alternatives.

Discussion Points:

• We still don't have an S type. Could Rotom return, or what about the ever versatile Tangela? Would you prefer something with a specific role but absolutely dominating at that job like Alcremie? Let us know, and of course no S rank is a totally valid opinion too; the VR council believes that as well.
• Rotom-Frost took a huge jump. Meanwhile, another Ice-type breaker, Jynx, remains a subrank lower. Was the jump too big and is Rotom-Frost more on Jynx's level? If not, should Jynx drop more?
• Gurdurr, to me, is a mini Sawk, capable of a lot of the same and more. While maybe not A+ rank, would A rank be better fit? A two subrank difference looks harsh when Gurdurr is so good to me.
• Our C rank is huge. Should we clean it up with any URs? While I'm in favor of representing a lot of niches, I do get skeptical over time regarding the validity of these niches in new metas.

 

[5Dots]

Update:

Thank you to AstilCodex for helping us out this round! See below the changes and my personal take on them. VR sheet.

Rises

B+ > A: It's a premier wall with phenomenal utility and good matchups. Besides just walling Grass- and Fire-types, Natural Cure makes it hard to take down, and Defogging is always a perk too. Sometimes Alt is the glue that walls everything, and even if Knock Off, Ice-types, and stallbreakers are annoying, walling the other half of the tier makes up for it.
B > B+: More teams are finding ways to get it in and punish. Offensive Ice coverage to back Fishous Rend also works well in this meta.
UR > C-: There's some matchups where Hakamo-o just can't be broken effectively / sets up on the entire defensive core–Tangela, Rapidash, Wishiwashi, Thwackey, and Alolan Persian have a hard time breaking its Substitute. It's a rare case of a unique typing + ability that goes unprepared for often, so we recognize it has some potential, albeit inconsistent and fishy.
C- > C+: Defog sets are decent good role compression on BO. Leaf Storm + Superpower is hard to wall.
UR > C: Future Sight + recoverable bulk, unique niche over Uxie.
A > A+: New best Ground-type, it completes balance / BO as a Volt Switch immunity and catch-all bulky attacker.
B+ >A: Near impossible dual STAB, even with Blizzard's inaccuracy the sheer power of this combo makes it worth it. Defog, Nasty Plot, and Substitute sets all vary in what their checks are.
UR > C-: Hard counters the above lmao. Also, Knock Off utility + the Electric-type matchup is a minor niche over say Wishiwashi.
(Poison) B+ > A: Some of the best utility as teams need a consistent Poison-type to help check Fighting- and Fairy-types. Its coverage and utility also make it a safe bet even outside of the Alcremie matchup.
A- > A: It's back to A again. When it comes to Skuntank and where it lands in the A ranks, it's going to go back and forth with the defensive meta and player preference with wanting to fit it. So while something like Silvally-Poison also rose this update, the popularity of Thwackey + Skuntank solidifies Skuntank's raise as well.
B- > B+: Silvally-Ground is gone, Stunfisk walls a handful of A ranks and ensures stall doesn't lose to Skuntank. Somewhat of a wally-er Rhydon for passive / balance teams.
:undezant: UR > C: Here's your Staraptor, bro. Flying-type breakers are always a decent gamble, try this one out with a special wallbreaker to pivot into.

Drops

B+ > B: Competition with the other formes + Flying-types, where does Rotom-S fit if not as a downgrade to others? It's place on VoltTurn is nicher than before.
B > B-: More Water-immune targets are being used + this drop follows a trend of Basculin dropping and not being used as much.
C > C-: Defensive Ground-types + Tangela are more popular.
B > B-: Nicher than before, can't wall Fire-types due to its Ground weakness, just hard to fit / justify.
C > C-: Less HO, less use on sem-stall, not exactly the meta for Ditto.
:driftblim: C > C-: Eseed teams aren't taking off.
A- > B+: There's more competition for its roles and its lack of passive recovery outside of Leech Seed makes it too easy to wear down.
A- > B+: Sweeps are harder to pull off when hard counters like Alolan Sandslash and Rapidash are guaranteed on virtually any competitive team these days.
(Small) A > A-: Pretty sure this drop is almost 100% because Silvally-Ground got banned.
A+ > A: Kanga teams are far from bad but it's not as dominating when its counters are prevalent and near impossible to break itself. That is, unless it goes for one of its trapping sets, but those sets are far from Kanga's full potential and if anything show that Kanga is getting harder to pull off.
B+ > B-: There's a meta that wants Mane's great neutral coverage and fast Speed; this isn't that meta. Instead, forcing to Switcheroo if it wants to make meaningful progress against most special walls and Ground-types is a huge disadvantage and harder to play.
A > A-: No more mandatory need with Centiskorch gone, way more competition with Skuntank, Silvally-Poison, and Alolan Sandslah.
A > A-: Another downward trend, its multi-purpose slot isn't always necessary and players are getting more creative when it comes to finding alternatives.

Discussion Points:

• We still don't have an S type. Could Rotom return, or what about the ever versatile Tangela? Would you prefer something with a specific role but absolutely dominating at that job like Alcremie? Let us know, and of course no S rank is a totally valid opinion too; the VR council believes that as well.
• Rotom-Frost took a huge jump. Meanwhile, another Ice-type breaker, Jynx, remains a subrank lower. Was the jump too big and is Rotom-Frost more on Jynx's level? If not, should Jynx drop more?
• Gurdurr, to me, is a mini Sawk, capable of a lot of the same and more. While maybe not A+ rank, would A rank be better fit? A two subrank difference looks harsh when Gurdurr is so good to me.
• Our C rank is huge. Should we clean it up with any URs? While I'm in favor of representing a lot of niches, I do get skeptical over time regarding the validity of these niches in new metas.

, in my opinion, definitely deserves S rank. It sits at a crucial benchmark, has seen the most use in ZU No Johns (aside from Silvally forms combined), and has multiple sets and items that bring unpredictability right from team builder. It fits on so many builds and lacks consistent checks, it demands respect in any game-to-game scenario. SubPlot sets dis mantle slower teams (esp. Stunfisks without Foul Play), Scarf sets sit at a nigh-unmatched speed tier, colbur/sitruswisp allows it to ruin incoming physical attackers, and even specs display impactful wall breaking power. , not so much. Base 100 special attack is definitely something to write home about, but its defensive nature restricts it to balance/bulkier builds, as otherwise, you’d ideally run other offensive grasses like Gourgeist-S. Compared to Rotom, status, knock, and general predictability gives it more flaws as a whole. Tending to run defensive sets often leaves it to be easily attacked by the rise in fire types (Ninetales/Rapidash), and Silvally-Poison. This is still a meta-defining Pokemon, but it tends to be more predictable and has more limits.

is ridiculous. I think the reason why remains a rank lower is because of how its restricted to offensive builds, and the lack in utility moves like defog, pain split, or will-o-wisp. Its worse bulk tends to also play a factor, as unlike Rotom-F, it can’t find ways to recover any lost HP. Frosttom also can pivot with STAB volt switch, something jynx wishes it could do. Jynx’s main sets like Boots, Specs, and Scarf can also be done superbly by Rotom-F, and its six weaknesses compared to Frosttom’s three tend to require more team support to get it on the field safely.

operates differently from - it trades immediate power in exchange for more bulk, as it fits much more on bulkier offensive builds than standard balance or offensive cores. This operates as a great status absorber and even acceptable hazard removal depending on what role it wants to fit. Gurdurr tends to be far-less prediction reliant due to how its not running items like a choice item or lure set (Black Belt). All that said, Gurdurr definitely deserves A rank for its defensive and offensive capabilities.

C rank shouldn’t be cleaned up unless they’ve been tested out throughly: There has been successful representation of even UR mons such as during No Johns, and the Research Week project found and to have niches that wouldn‘t have been found without proper building + practice.

Those are my thoughts for now. There’s a lot of things to test out throughout ZUPL I’d love to see.

 

[viet noa]

Update:

Thank you to AstilCodex for helping us out this round! See below the changes and my personal take on them. VR sheet.

Rises

B+ > A: It's a premier wall with phenomenal utility and good matchups. Besides just walling Grass- and Fire-types, Natural Cure makes it hard to take down, and Defogging is always a perk too. Sometimes Alt is the glue that walls everything, and even if Knock Off, Ice-types, and stallbreakers are annoying, walling the other half of the tier makes up for it.
B > B+: More teams are finding ways to get it in and punish. Offensive Ice coverage to back Fishous Rend also works well in this meta.
UR > C-: There's some matchups where Hakamo-o just can't be broken effectively / sets up on the entire defensive core–Tangela, Rapidash, Wishiwashi, Thwackey, and Alolan Persian have a hard time breaking its Substitute. It's a rare case of a unique typing + ability that goes unprepared for often, so we recognize it has some potential, albeit inconsistent and fishy.
C- > C+: Defog sets are decent good role compression on BO. Leaf Storm + Superpower is hard to wall.
UR > C: Future Sight + recoverable bulk, unique niche over Uxie.
A > A+: New best Ground-type, it completes balance / BO as a Volt Switch immunity and catch-all bulky attacker.
B+ >A: Near impossible dual STAB, even with Blizzard's inaccuracy the sheer power of this combo makes it worth it. Defog, Nasty Plot, and Substitute sets all vary in what their checks are.
UR > C-: Hard counters the above lmao. Also, Knock Off utility + the Electric-type matchup is a minor niche over say Wishiwashi.
(Poison) B+ > A: Some of the best utility as teams need a consistent Poison-type to help check Fighting- and Fairy-types. Its coverage and utility also make it a safe bet even outside of the Alcremie matchup.
A- > A: It's back to A again. When it comes to Skuntank and where it lands in the A ranks, it's going to go back and forth with the defensive meta and player preference with wanting to fit it. So while something like Silvally-Poison also rose this update, the popularity of Thwackey + Skuntank solidifies Skuntank's raise as well.
B- > B+: Silvally-Ground is gone, Stunfisk walls a handful of A ranks and ensures stall doesn't lose to Skuntank. Somewhat of a wally-er Rhydon for passive / balance teams.
UR > C: Here's your Staraptor, bro. Flying-type breakers are always a decent gamble, try this one out with a special wallbreaker to pivot into.

Drops

B+ > B: Competition with the other formes + Flying-types, where does Rotom-S fit if not as a downgrade to others? It's place on VoltTurn is nicher than before.
B > B-: More Water-immune targets are being used + this drop follows a trend of Basculin dropping and not being used as much.
C > C-: Defensive Ground-types + Tangela are more popular.
B > B-: Nicher than before, can't wall Fire-types due to its Ground weakness, just hard to fit / justify.
C > C-: Less HO, less use on sem-stall, not exactly the meta for Ditto.
:driftblim: C > C-: Eseed teams aren't taking off.
A- > B+: There's more competition for its roles and its lack of passive recovery outside of Leech Seed makes it too easy to wear down.
A- > B+: Sweeps are harder to pull off when hard counters like Alolan Sandslash and Rapidash are guaranteed on virtually any competitive team these days.
(Small) A > A-: Pretty sure this drop is almost 100% because Silvally-Ground got banned.
A+ > A: Kanga teams are far from bad but it's not as dominating when its counters are prevalent and near impossible to break itself. That is, unless it goes for one of its trapping sets, but those sets are far from Kanga's full potential and if anything show that Kanga is getting harder to pull off.
B+ > B-: There's a meta that wants Mane's great neutral coverage and fast Speed; this isn't that meta. Instead, forcing to Switcheroo if it wants to make meaningful progress against most special walls and Ground-types is a huge disadvantage and harder to play.
A > A-: No more mandatory need with Centiskorch gone, way more competition with Skuntank, Silvally-Poison, and Alolan Sandslah.
A > A-: Another downward trend, its multi-purpose slot isn't always necessary and players are getting more creative when it comes to finding alternatives.

Discussion Points:

• We still don't have an S type. Could Rotom return, or what about the ever versatile Tangela? Would you prefer something with a specific role but absolutely dominating at that job like Alcremie? Let us know, and of course no S rank is a totally valid opinion too; the VR council believes that as well.
• Rotom-Frost took a huge jump. Meanwhile, another Ice-type breaker, Jynx, remains a subrank lower. Was the jump too big and is Rotom-Frost more on Jynx's level? If not, should Jynx drop more?
• Gurdurr, to me, is a mini Sawk, capable of a lot of the same and more. While maybe not A+ rank, would A rank be better fit? A two subrank difference looks harsh when Gurdurr is so good to me.
• Our C rank is huge. Should we clean it up with any URs? While I'm in favor of representing a lot of niches, I do get skeptical over time regarding the validity of these niches in new metas.

1. i think having no s tier right now is fine. i wouldn’t necessarily say that there’s any particular pokémon dominating the game that would necessitate an s tier placement. rotom boasts incredible role compression, and would be my s tier pick if i had to pick one, but i don’t think it has the peak potential of a true s tier. although its subplot set has a good amount of potential, it can be difficult to set up sometimes due to the middling bulk and speed that rotom has. its scarf set is super accessible, but it’s not a particularly strong scarf user. other sets are nice, but not s tier material.

2. i think jynx is fine in a- tier. while it is such an overwhelming threat when it gets going, it’s also extremely frail, making it a bit inconsistent in practice. in comparison, rotom-frost has much more bulk and a much better typing. as much as i appreciate specs and scarf sets, especially scarf, they’re also very weak to stealth rocks.

3. gurdurr is different from sawk, in my opinion. sawk shines as a revenge killer that can easily clean a game, and can even be used in the early to mid game to land knock offs on foes trying to switch into it. on the other hand, gurdurr functions greatly as a tank that can easily take a hit and dish one out in return. it’s a good niche for sure, but it’s not something you can compare to sawk. i would definitely consider it for a tier, but it unfortunately runs into the dilemma of having solely fighting/dark attacks. it can run ice punch or poison jab if it wants to surprise its checks, but it’s not worth replacing the extreme value of any move in its set: bulk up, drain punch, knock, or mach punch.

4. boltund shoulda been UR smh my head

extra thoughts:

don’t sleep on , i think it stands out from its competition due to its combination of great defensive traits from different flying-type competition. as a result, its role compression gives it a very good role as a means of opening up team opportunities without the cost of sacrificing other things.

Rotom-Fan @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog / Air Slash
- Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave
- Pain Split
- Volt Switch

like altaria, it has a very good defensive typing and the ability to spread different status. it also has the pivoting capabilities of articuno, and the offensive pressure of a pokémon like cramorant. 220 ev’s makes it faster than jolly flapple and adamant thwackey. you can also extrapolate its bulk by investing more in defense and having 88 speed for jolly arctovish, or 8 for adamant.

 

[JdRDMS]

B+ >A

GEN 7 WILL NEVER DIE!

In all seriousness, I don't think we have anything that's S-rank-worthy right now. Rotom has to choose strong points (Scarf isn't strong enough, Specs isn't fast enough, and SubPlot is too prediction reliant while also not having great Speed, though all of these sets are good), Tangela is fantastic against physical attackers but is really Knock-prone and folds to most special attacks, and Alcremie has a noticeable case of 4MSS. It's near impossible to stop Alcremie once it gets going, but with good building you should be able to handle it (ask Tuthur). To be honest, I think the VR is fairly accurate right now, with the exception of Galarian Rapidash being too low (but again, I don't have any new arguments), and one other mon I'll get to shortly, though that's about to change by a lot. In a few days, September shifts are going to happen, and let's just say, stall is f***ed (edit: whoops I'm an idiot, the next big shifts are in October, but the way things are now, those predictions are still likely to be accurate). But we'll discuss that when we get to that.

As for the C's, I think it's mostly good. With one exception, I think every mon in the rank has a justifiable enough niche. But as for that one exception, holy crap.

Noctowl: C- -> UR
Ash's Noctowl isn't enough to save this thing's status as garbage in the current meta. Of all the special attackers in the tier, why would you ever want to use this? Its physical bulk is horrendous, and its speed is mediocre at best. Its ability is alright, but come on, that's really not enough. It may be able to run 3 different items, but all of them are bad. HDB gets rid of its rocks weakness and allows it to choose its moves, but its stats come back to bite. Specs makes it strong, but it's still slow. Scarf makes it decently fast, but now it's not strong enough. Noctowl also has one of the worst cases of 4MSS I've ever seen. It wants Hurricane, Heat Wave, Substitute, Nasty Plot, Agility, Roost, and Toxic all at once, while also wanting both the stronger Special Attack and Speed granted by Specs and Scarf, and the rocks immunity granted by HDB. It also despises a lot of recent meta changes. Snowslash auto-loses to non-choiced sets, but can easily set up against a choiced set locked on the wrong move. Rhydon, Stunfisk, Frosttom, Electricvally, and Raichu to a lesser extent rising also really hurt the owl. People have been asking for Noctowl to be unranked for months, and Noctowl's viability is at an all-time low right now. Let this thing rot in SU's C-ranks (oh yeah, it's not even that good in SU), please and thanks.

Also yes I'm alive, but 11th grade is hard okay? I'll catch up on breaks. Why did I think switching to Latin was a good idea?

 

[kay]

UR --> C+ (honestly I'd put it in like B+ if we're just talking tournament viability but considering its general play C+ seems more fair)

Okay so after bringing it for both myself and the wonderful mirbro this week for zupl as well as building it for dani in his seasonal finals, I can let the cat out of the bag for just how good this mon is right now for bulkier teams. Shedinjas main use is walling a ton of scary stuff like specs Jynx, non toxic Klinklang, frostom, kanga, alcremie, frosmoth, wishi, ect which are all huge right now. I think this mon is a completely viable tournament pick right now and has been all the way since I made Shedinja stall for Dani in his seasonal finals vs Tlenit so its not even just a flavor of the month thing as its something I've been using for high profile tournament matches for months.

There's also this interesting concept that's kept me so drawn to Shedinja for these important games that I think is easy to over look. While on paper it might look like Shedinja is just trying to match up fish, the reality is the pressure it takes off your building by not having to worry about some of the scariest breakers in the tier means you can get super greedy and degenerate with your defensive cores because you can just disregard any mon that Shedinja beats. This means that if you have a match up where Shedinja does nothing, it means your entire defensive core is dedicated to answering the things left which then puts you into a good match up despite not having an extremely useful Shedinja which has made it way more consistent of a mon than replays might make it seem. And with Rotom-frost getting a lot more popular this niche of just getting super degenerate with your defensive cores means a lot more now than it did when Seasonal finals were played.

Replays:
ZU Seasonal finals - Dani vs Tlenit game 2
ZU Seasonal finals - Dani vs Tlenit game 3
ZUPL week 1 - kay vs OranBerryBlissey
ZUPL week 1 - Mirbro vs Landon

ZUPL week 1 - tuthur vs czim


EDIT: Also this mon works on more than just stall. It just so happens 3/4 of the replays were stall.

 

[viet noa]

cleaning up C tier (noms to ur)

to UR: already explained this, but even the strongest possible boltund is still weak, and it has none of the perks that other electric types have in zu.
to UR: i can’t imagine this things likes the grass tax at all. i like bulky shell smashers, but carracosta is too slow and has too bad of a typing to compete with other setup breakers. carracosta just seems very hard to fit on any particular team, and even on webs (an already bad team style), it’s a low tier option at best for a bulky breaker.
to UR: this feels like a metagame not meant for runergius. with no recovery, a weakness to grass and dark types, and very poor team synergy due to poltergeist, runerigus can’t do much of anything that other stealth rockers can’t. runerigus is too demanding of support for a stealth rocker that occasionally checks rotom-fan at its absolute peak.
to UR: it has its niche on hail, but i feel like it’s not an essential component to a team style that’s just barely hanging onto its viability.
to UR: it’s far from bad as a sun breaker, but its only niche is being the 5th best sun abuser in the tier. as a result, its really hard to fit on sun teams, a playstyle that’s unfortunately not in its prime rn.

will nom more stuff later
edit: sorry for disrespecting cryo, it’s a good hail setter

 

[JdRDMS]

I know I said I thought the VR was mostly accurate, and that is still true, but I have a few more things to bring up.

edit: sorry for disrespecting cryo, it’s a good hail setter

Yeah about that.

Cryogonal: C+ -> C
Far from terrible, and I fully agree that dropping it all the way to UR is a bit extreme, but I’m just not sure this thing is worthy of C+. Hail a pretty weak playstyle all things considered, and outside of that it’s outclassed by Articuno and Alolan Sandslash as a hazard remover. Its special bulk is pretty good, but its physical bulk is horrendous, not helped by bad defensive typing. Overall, Cryogonal definitely has its uses, but I just don’t think it's on the same level as the rest of C+.


Kabutops: B- -> C+
Kabutops does NOT appreciate Grass-types being a necessity on every team, as it auto-loses to basically all of them.

Why?

252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela on a critical hit: 192-227 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this assumes that Tangela lost its Eviolite AND gets critted)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferroseed on a critical hit: 159-187 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (see Tangela's notes)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Small: 165-195 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Thwackey: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (even without Eviolite the OHKO isn't guaranteed)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shiftry: 296-348 (92.2 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (Shftry is known for being frail, come on)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Appletun on a critical hit: 352-417 (83 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flapple: 235-278 (83.6 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cradily on a critical hit: 302-356 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (and if it switches in on a Water move, oof)

Hakamo-o getting some attention also hurts Kabutops a lot (the most Kabutops can do against the most common set is 74.5%, and that's with a crit and if Hakamo-o has lost its Eviolite). And that attention isn't just getting a rank on the VR, Hakamo-o has seen a spike in usage recently as well, going from .21% in July to 1.25% in August. Granted, 1.25% isn't a lot, but it shows how Hakamo-o has been picking up steam. Frosttom has also seen an increase in usage, and while it obviously gets OHKO'd by Stone Edge, it can tank a Liquidation and OHKO with Thunderbolt or Volt Switch.

Weak Armor isn't a great ability as it makes Kabutops super susceptible to priority moves. And lowered Defense is the last thing Kabutops wants, as it's the one stat keeping it from having the bulk of wet paper. 105 Defense is good, but 60 HP and 70 Special Defense hold Kabutops's bulk back, especially on the special side, where it basically is wet paper. This isn't helped by Kabutops's typing, which makes it weak to Ground, Electric, Flying, and especially Grass, all of which are very common types in the current metagame. Its bulk also makes it harder for it to safely set up Swords Dance, which is a very common move for it. 80 Speed also isn't great, being outsped by a lot of common threats. Weak Armor can help mitigate this, but it's still not great and can be strategized around. Rain is also pretty much dead in the water (ha ha) right now, so that's also not a factor.

This section has been pretty negative, but there are definitely good things about Kabutops. Its strength is devestating, with 115 Attack (which can be backed up with Swords Dance) and high BP moves, it can run Flip Turn (which can be used to keep momentum with good predictions), and once the opponent's Grass-type is down, it can be hard to stop once it sets up if they don't have a decently strong special attack left. However, that's the thing: Kabutops gets stone-walled by most Grass-types if it's not already boosted, which along with mediocre bulk, base speed, and typing, means it requires too much support for me to feel comfortable keeping it in the B-ranks.

 

[5Dots]

I know I said I thought the VR was mostly accurate, and that is still true, but I have a few more things to bring up.

Yeah about that.

Cryogonal: C+ -> C
Far from terrible, and I fully agree that dropping it all the way to UR is a bit extreme, but I’m just not sure this thing is worthy of C+. Hail a pretty weak playstyle all things considered, and outside of that it’s outclassed by Articuno and Alolan Sandslash as a hazard remover. Its special bulk is pretty good, but its physical bulk is horrendous, not helped by bad defensive typing. Overall, Cryogonal definitely has its uses, but I just don’t think it's on the same level as the rest of C+.


Kabutops: B- -> C+
Kabutops does NOT appreciate Grass-types being a necessity on every team, as it auto-loses to basically all of them.

Why?

252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela on a critical hit: 192-227 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this assumes that Tangela lost its Eviolite AND gets critted)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferroseed on a critical hit: 159-187 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (see Tangela's notes)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Small: 165-195 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Thwackey: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (even without Eviolite the OHKO isn't guaranteed)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shiftry: 296-348 (92.2 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (Shftry is known for being frail, come on)
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Appletun on a critical hit: 352-417 (83 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flapple: 235-278 (83.6 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cradily on a critical hit: 302-356 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (and if it switches in on a Water move, oof)

Hakamo-o getting some attention also hurts Kabutops a lot (the most Kabutops can do against the most common set is 74.5%, and that's with a crit and if Hakamo-o has lost its Eviolite). And that attention isn't just getting a rank on the VR, Hakamo-o has seen a spike in usage recently as well, going from .21% in July to 1.25% in August. Granted, 1.25% isn't a lot, but it shows how Hakamo-o has been picking up steam. Frosttom has also seen an increase in usage, and while it obviously gets OHKO'd by Stone Edge, it can tank a Liquidation and OHKO with Thunderbolt or Volt Switch.

Weak Armor isn't a great ability as it makes Kabutops super susceptible to priority moves. And lowered Defense is the last thing Kabutops wants, as it's the one stat keeping it from having the bulk of wet paper. 105 Defense is good, but 60 HP and 70 Special Defense hold Kabutops's bulk back, especially on the special side, where it basically is wet paper. This isn't helped by Kabutops's typing, which makes it weak to Ground, Electric, Flying, and especially Grass, all of which are very common types in the current metagame. Its bulk also makes it harder for it to safely set up Swords Dance, which is a very common move for it. 80 Speed also isn't great, being outsped by a lot of common threats. Weak Armor can help mitigate this, but it's still not great and can be strategized around. Rain is also pretty much dead in the water (ha ha) right now, so that's also not a factor.

This section has been pretty negative, but there are definitely good things about Kabutops. Its strength is devestating, with 115 Attack (which can be backed up with Swords Dance) and high BP moves, it can run Flip Turn (which can be used to keep momentum with good predictions), and once the opponent's Grass-type is down, it can be hard to stop once it sets up if they don't have a decently strong special attack left. However, that's the thing: Kabutops gets stone-walled by most Grass-types if it's not already boosted, which along with mediocre bulk, base speed, and typing, means it requires too much support for me to feel comfortable keeping it in the B-ranks.

Cryogonal understandably faces immense competition from other spinners, defoggers and ice-types in general. Does this warrant a drop?… I’m not so sure. The fastest rapid spinner is appealing if your opponent likes running hazard-reliant teams, and spikes like Qwilfish and A-Sandslash have, and are still quite common in the meta. Being one of the premier hail setters (alongside Carbink) is honestly a reasonable niche for the Pokemon around and even below it, as hail can be quite dangerous against teams without proper ice and water resists. As czim stated, it’s not the Pokemon themselves that are bad, it’s just the archetype where all the weaknesses are shared. Most weathers, really, are stacking defensive weaknesses.

As for Kabutops, it’s a perfectly serviceable breaker with the uncommon weak armor. (Sometimes, it doesn’t matter if its defense its lowered - your opponents needs to hit it first!) The opportunity to outspeed scarfers like jynx and sawk can decide between you losing momentum or winning it, or sometimes even outright beating them when they’re weakened. As for the calcs, Ferroseed, Tangela, Gourgeist-S, Appletun, and Cradily are usually supposed to come in and stomach its hits. Thwackey and Flapple get worn down quickly from all the Stealth Rock damage and stray hits they sustain from battle. it’s not unrealistic to have them being worn down. As for Hakamo-o, that’s an extremely niche (and possibly unviable) Pokemon that loses to multiple other meta picks. Most breakers don’t have great bulk or fantastic speed. Not all pokemon can be winners.

I think Cryogonal and kabutops are fine at C+ and B- respectively. Sure they have their flaws, but similar topics covered can be said for most Pokemon.
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Got a few noms to list here:

C- -> C
The bull laying down here is kind of silly. Bouffalant brings to the table a high attack stat, respectable coverage options, beefy bulk, and, most importantly, sap sipper. Tired of having a bowl of ramen stonewalling your team and a banded jack-o-lantern picking off teams one by one? Never fear! The bull with an afro provides the tools needed to be a solid wincon. I‘ve found substitute + SD sets to be terrifying without ghosts running around, and band sets enable it to wallbreak very well against slower teams. Outside of most grass types, bouff can find set up opportunities against articuno, Uxie, audino, and stunfisk, especially with toxic or paralysis support. Don’t get me wrong, this is still niche, but i feel with meta trends favoring towards grass types, the rise feels reasonable.

C- -> UR
Despite the fact it can still check Fires like Rapidash and Ninetales as well as grounds like Rhydon and Piloswine, Seaking’s mediocre longevity makes this difficult to accomplish, esp. with sets like Swords Dance and Nasty Plot forcing it to rest much earlier than usual. The final nail in the coffin is Rotom-Frost’s ban, taking away one of its biggest niches in checking such a dangerous metagame threat.

C+ -> C-
Watching Feliburn’s game against Dani has convinced me how excruciatingly difficult it is to fit on teams. It’s got an awkward typing, absurd competition with the numerous Stealth Rock + Grass + Rock-types in the metagame. The water immunity usually flops in some way or another: Wishiwashi can pivot with U-turn, Poliwrath can beat it with its fighting STABs, while even Basculin can hit it with Ice Beam. And all three of these can run Toxic to make its job of walling stuff even more difficult. True, there aren’t many Grass-types with Stealth Rock on their arnesal, but you can still run Ferroseed and still have that LC Pokemon outperform Cradily in most roles.

The offensive sets are worse IMO: Meteor Beam (+ Rock Polish) sets are outclassed by Gourgeist-S as a wallbreaker (with Nasty Plot), since it isn’t as reliant on prediction to break, while Swords Dance sets have difficulty being used over even Lycanroc for that matter with Rock/Fighting-coverage. Cradily can make progress with Rock Polish, but finding the opportunity to do so can be quite hard: Scarfers like Sawk, Basculin, and Kabutops can still outpace it (as well as modest Accelgor) and take care of it.