Resource SS ZU Viability Rankings v2 - Update @236

[czim]

Just a couple noms bc there are too many and I dont wanna check what was nommed or not.

B to B+
Both of these are pretty underrated breakers that just demolish unprepared teams with ease. Appletun's sub set has been incredible lately being able to sub on and break teams that rely on Ferroseed or Audino to take special attacks. Appletun also easily subs on non-Sludge Bomb Tangela variants and can easily force out the ones that run Sludge Bomb. Flapple on the other hand is more of a nuke for Voltturn teams due to its access to U-turn and Sucker Punch on top of its raw breaking power. Both of those appreciate that we don't have other Dragon-types in the meta and resists to its STAB combinations are hard to come by and are easy to take advantage of.

UR to C+
Something that has been picking up in the last week of UMPL on Grassy terrain teams. Gorse's ability to fit reliable recovery, toxic immunity and coverage on the same set gives it an edge over the more immediately powerful Swoobat. This makes it harder to revenge kill than its bat counterpart and an efficient match up cheese. Teams that have Scarf Sawk for speed control like in the replays struggle, for example.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1340578262-2kz302rcae5uzgxg1vhogl6x0lwawlcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1341777799

New/UR to B
Aurorus has been a pretty efficient offensive rocker when I used it so far. It does have some decent set variance that makes beating it somewhat of a nuisance because of the raw power of the Meteor Beam set forcing sacks while the Boots set has more utility and can force rocks on Defoggers like Altaria and Articuno throughout the match. Ice/Rock coverage punishes literally all our common hazard removal and this is a good meta for Aurorus.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1335563352

 

[5gen]

Hey all, this thread will be locked in about 8-10 hours for the new VR slate/update, so put any nominations in before then. After that, the VR council will work on an update.

Edit: Sheet is here

 

[5Dots]

Weather you like it or not, here are my noms post damp-rock!

C- -> UR: While its grass typing allows it to absorb leech seed and can potentially work on grassy terrain teams, it’s still slow and not really worthwhile even with access to grassy glide. G-Rapidash, Swoobat, and even Drifblim (who is UR) are more immediately threatening via being faster, better typings, access to calm mind to the former two to frustrate special attackers and the latter slowing physical attackers with strength sap.. While Lurantis doesn’t need an item before boosting, Thwackey has much more power to it anyways, and can run a bigger pool of items to threaten opponents. Worst of all, outside of Terrain, Lurantis is outdone by Malamar in all of its sets with a secondary stab and similar gameplan despite the mantis’ greater power.

B -> B+/A-: It’s cool to have Rotom-Frost get more attention. BoltBeam is excellent offensively, further bolstered by Articuno and Tangela being centralizing forces in the tier. SubPlot makes it an excellent sweeper, and can even run defog sets and play a similar role to rotom-fan, only this time its levitate comes into greater use. Specially defensive Articunos can’t hope to get past subs with freeze dry, and chances are, rotom will be able to set up a free nasty plot:

0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 33-40 (13.6 - 16.5%)
0 Atk Articuno Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 54-63 (22.4 - 26.1%)
Other Pokemon Rotom-Frost can set up on for notable Pokemon:

0 Atk Ferroseed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 39-46 (16.1 - 19%) (Though Rotom needs to scout for Gyro ball)
0 Atk Audino Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 44-52 (18.2 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Wishiwashi Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 31-37 (12.8 - 15.3%)
4 SpA Rotom-Fan Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 37-44 (15.3 - 18.2%)
4 SpA Rotom-Fan Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 39-47 (16.1 - 19.5%)

B- -> B: The difficulty in keeping away hazards makes it all the more fearsome when setting them. Accelgor is also capable of bluffing a suicide lead set and instead using choice specs to make it a formidable late-game cleaner, which is especially prominent given its blistering speed. Being able to discourage Hattrem is quite nice. It can even run encore to discourage setup sweepers, and yawn can discorage counters from staying in. While its defensive profile isn’t good, the hazards, speed, and potential power it can provide more than make up for it.

B+ -> A-: Without all that rain running around, Miltank gets to use its defensive profile a bit better. Throughout a game, one can’t tell whether it will be using thick fat or sap sipper, leading to restrictions in how to deal with it. The defensive spreads are also a guessing game, as it could use specially and physically defensive sets well. It’s basically a sidegrade to Audino, except it tends to be a more status and damage oriented cleric with more resistances to boot.
Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1338816516-5poneute6ug0d7la5fxqonis8ag1z6epw
Miltank was a flexible pokemon to use throughout the game, as it was able to team up with articuno and finish weakened threats, especially walling rotom at the endgame.
New/UR -> UR: Unsuprisingly, Vanilluxe is absolutely terrible and is only useful for beating Pyukumuku and Tangela... thought it pretty much loses to everything else. Looks like it’s time to put this treat back into the freezer.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

C- -> C: In my opinion, the support this thing provides is underrated. Rapid Spin + Rocks and a semblance of viability on sand teams should give this thing at least C rank.

 

[JdRDMS]

Wanna make two really quick noms before the slate goes up (I could probably make better arguments with more time, but I just wanted these to be considered for the May slate).

Carracosta: C- -> UR
- God-awful Speed (Not fantastic even after Shell Smash; 326 isn't super difficult to reach)
- Hard-walled by Tangela: not even +6 Stone Edge OHKO's (but you'll never get that far lol), and even Ice Beam at +2 (if you run it) can't OHKO. On the other hand, even if you run Solid Rock, Giga Drain is still a guaranteed OHKO.
- Being forced to rely on Aqua Jet for Water damage isn't great

I mean come on

+2 252+ Atk Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 292-348 (83.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- Extremely difficult to set up against Special Attackers due to its 74 HP and 65 SpD stats. Combined with the risk of status (especially burns), most of the time you have to rely on sacking or pivoting to get it in safely, more so than other set-up sweepers.
- Really, there are so many other physical breakers (and even with only SD they can still get close to Carracosta's Speed when the latter is at +2) that this thing is just horribly outclassed. Kabutops, Qwilfish, and Crustle are great examples (the latter also uses Shell Smash, and better). Just use something else.

And speaking of Crustle:

Crustle: C -> C+
Don't have as much to say about this one. I honestly felt like this wouldn't have been unreasonable before, but now that Damp Rock is banned and Rain will become weaker and less common (though I still feel like it has potential, it will just be harder to use), this thing gets its job done more easily and consistently. With Rain being less common, it's more reliable to use later in the match as well as a lead, and is a better Shell Smash sweeper/cleaner than Carracosta could ever hope to be.

 

[5gen]

Hello all, here is the VR sheet with votes and here are the changes for this VR update:

New Pokemon
Aurorus New -> B
Vanilluxe New -> C

Rises
Alcremie A- -> A
Appletun B -> B+
Articuno A- -> A
Carracosta C- -> C
Cramorant B- -> B+
Drifblim UR -> C-
Flapple B -> B+
Garbodor A -> A+
Golbat C+ -> B-
Gourgeist-S B -> B+
Hattrem C- -> C
Ivysaur UR -> C+
Jellicent B- -> B
Kangaskhan A+ -> S
Klinklang C+ -> B-
Manectric B -> A-
Perrserker B- -> B
Rapidash B+ -> A
Rapidash Galar UR -> C+
Rhydon B+ -> A-
Rotom-Frost B -> B+
Runerigus C -> C+
Sawk A -> A+
Silvally-Dark B- -> B
Silvally-Poison C- -> C
Stunfisk B- -> B
Tangela A -> S
Thievul B+ -> A-
Thwackey B+ -> A-
Vibrava UR -> C-

Drops
Centiskorch A+ -> A
Ditto B- -> C
Kabutops A- -> B
Liepard B+ -> B-
Ludicolo A- -> C+
Persian Alola A+ -> A
Piloswine A- -> B+
Silvally-Ghost A -> A-
Spiritomb B -> B-
Stunfisk Galar B+ -> B-
Uxie S -> A+
Whiscash C -> UR

Notable Changes

• S rank changes: Uxie drops to A+ while Kangaskhan and Tangela rise to S. Uxie has been a meta defining Pokemon mainly because of its Stealth Rock set and how it glues teams together. However, Uxie has always been a somewhat controversial S rank partly because it is not a major threat that teams prepare for. In addition, Uxie's value in role compression and support as a rocker and glue Pokemon tapered off with Pokemon like Tangela, Kangaskhan, Garbodor, and Rhydon have become increasingly common as glue Pokemon. Uxie also has certain flaws like being easy to wear down and trouble against entry hazard removers like Articuno and Cramorant. Conversely, Tangela and Kangaskhan have proven to be staples in this metagame and ones that shape the metagame around them. Tangela is the supreme glue Pokemon thanks to Regenerator and its ability to blanket check physical attackers. Tangela also gives teams a lot of freedom in the builder because of that and enables teams to form cores and defensive backbones relatively easily. Kangaskhan fills a similar role for offense in the sense that it checks a wide range of threats thanks to its priority and ability to tank hits and 1v1 foes. Moreover, Kangaskhan drives entry hazard stack offense and forces (in part) such high usage for Pokemon like Tangela and Garbodor. Also, recent usage of sets like Whirlpool+Toxic makes Kangaskhan that much more difficult to prepare for.
• Sawk to A+: Choice Band Sawk is a menace to switch into and teams really struggle to prepare for it. In game, CB Sawk can just break down teams and nab OHKOes and 2HKOes if it predicts correctly, or if teams don't pack a Fighting-type immunity. Sawk's Speed and coverage make it splashable as a breaker as well. Choice Scarf Sawk is also one of ZU's best revenge killers and one of the most splashable too.
• There are other notable changes like Articuno, Cramorant, Thwackey, Manectric, and Rapidash rising and Centiskorch, Alolan Persian, rain mons (Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Liepard), and Silvally-Ghost dropping. However, it's pretty late for me so I won't be able to elaborate.

 

[gglrg]

Here to make a few noms so here we go:

UR's and drops

C to UR
Carbink hasn't had a good time ever since drampa and magmortar were banned. It struggles against the majority of the meta and is a heavily outclassed as a rocker. It can be a trick room and/or screens setter, but none of those are that good rn and there are better screen setters like uxie and cryogonal. It's just very poor at everything.

C to UR
Having this the same rank as jynx is insulting. There are multiple better ice types than this who can peform special breaking roles like aurorus, the aformentiobed jynx, cryogonal and even glaceon who isn't even ranked. Weak Armor is a meh ability that can put at risk from priority like kangaskhan and shiftry. Taunt boots sets might be something but even jynx has taunt who is way better. I don't see how this is worth a rank.

C- to UR
This mon is so bad I can't even. With recent trends like coalossal and stunfisk aswell as mons like articuno being around isn't doing it favours, not to mention it's poor physcial bulk and average speed. There are better special breakers and set up sweepers in this meta right now and it's double dance sets will never sweep or even break holes and specs/nasty plot are way too easy to exploit. It's really hard to just slap noctowl on a team and thinking it's going to do something.

C to UR
If you want a specially defensive pivot use wishiwashi who isn't as passive as this also. If you need special wall use audino who is excellent for support and packs knock off. There's very little reason to use this. Unrank it.

A to A-
Meta isn't very kind to centi rn as most teams have 1 way to deal with it, for example cramorant, rapidash, qwilfish, altaria coalossal etc. Not to mention half the tier creeps it's meager speed tier. It's just another mon pretty easy to exploit.

A to A-/B+
Meta isn't kind to basculin right now. It's pretty hit or miss as a breaker rn and is unreliable. It's easily revenged and walled by too many teams rn to accomplish anything e.g jellicent, cramorant and even jynx have gotten better and stonewall it aswell as standard old faces in altaria wishiwashi and articuno speed tier leaves it easy to revenge for literally every scarfer gourgeist, manectric and ninetales. I guess scarf sets are probably better than the specs cuz one of basculins pros is that flip turn is so spammable.

B+ to B-/C-
The ultimate shitmon somehow kept itself in B+. This thing is awful. All it's physical sets are hillariously bad and are outclassed by sawk and gurdurr who are stronger and pack knock off and stonewalled by tier king tangela and mainstays like uxie and qwilfish, rest talk is outclassed by throh and wishiwashi, and specs that has claimed to be good doesn't seem to offer anything over basculin who isn't very good rn apart from better bulk (and fighting stabs, forget about this lol). It's really hard to even consider putting this on a team.

B- to C+/C
The definition of passivitiy does not deserve a place in the b's imo rn as there as there are better spdef rockers like ferroseed and stunfisk. While the former does not have a volt immunity, it has very handy tools in leech seed for semi recovery and knock off and stunfisk unova version is just better in the meta rn not to mention it has toxic somthing g-fisk would love. Whereas stunfisk-g relieson leftovers heavily, and if it gets burned it's over. Not very good I'd say.


Rises:
C- to C+
Bouff is a solid anti meta pick rn as sub sd sets completely destroy tangela, the best physical wall in the tier. It's pretty good bulk + sap sipper ability let's it sub on the aformentioned tangela, gourgeist small, ferroseed, uxie, audino, thwackey when choice locked. It can be evd around to take volt switches from rotom-fan and rotom ghost whilst even be able to take some hits for the team from time to time and trade too. If you're looking for anti-meta pick bouff is the one for you.

C to C+/B-
Jynx is actually one of the hardest mons to switch into if it can get onto the field safely. Rise of tangela teams means another jynx victim, and you can pair it with something like thwackey to lure tangela in and get in jynx safely and also gets in free entry vs altaria qwilfish lacking thunder wave and basculin. Specs is deadly which opens up it's movepool to use fancy tricks like focus blast to nail steels trick/psyshock to mess with special walls like audino and wishiwashi. A sleep move in lovely kiss with a pretty solid accuarcy is nice to break past those walls too, definitely better than c.

A- to A
Specs thievul is an absolute pain to switch into if you lack an alcremie/clefairy. It doesn't find it hard to get onto the field as it's able to come in on mons like rotom and qwilfish and force them out and there's a high chance you're sacking a mon or something is taking major damage.

A- to A
MONKE supremacy! If you add this to your team it offers soo much. Pivot? check. Late game cleaner/revenger? check. Wallbreaker? check. Passive recovery for teamates? check. Weakning earthquakes for certain teammates? check. Knock off + u-turn is a broken combo with an insane priority in grassy glide and banded wood hammers are no joke. It revenges silvally ground, rotom, manectric, basculin and weakened set up sweepers like frosmoth.

B to B+
coal is really solid right now. It manages to deal with special breakers like frosmoth, rotom formes, articuno and skuntank and also walling centiskorch and punishing u-turn from thwackey and cincinno and physical attacks with the annoying flame body and providing hazard support in both forms whether it's setting rocks/spikes or spinning them away.

UR nom

UR to C/C+
Lycanroc midnight is an underrated pick in the meta. Swords dance with a life orb manage to break past walls like qwilfish garbodor and rhydon and no guard stone edges are hard to switch around unless you lack ground/ steel/ tangela, close combat nails the steel types like ferroseed and does alot still to silvally ground and sucker punch picks of certian faster threats like rotom manectric gourgeist small and basculin. It's typing allows it so switch into normal attacks like kangaskhans fake out and revenge it easily if a jolly nature. It also completely dominates altaria and articuno find free entry to those too. I believe it's on par/ better than stonjourner.

Replay (will hopefully add better ones)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344901437-ickbfxtit2aaoi4jd2ja8lmveefj5vfpw shows lycanroc getting free entry onto the field vs miltank and being able to mindgame the silvally poison and completely clean up as cofagrigus was weakened.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344951988-ida1rq9mko35pyxryv5x1wr38r0fsq4pw (czim vs quags) sorry quags :(. this one shows lycan as a late game cleaner as tang was knocked and chipped throughout the game and gets straight up cleaned by lycans stone edge.

 

[kay]

Spicy Raises:

A+ --> S
Lets start this post off with a bit of a hot take. I think rotom is the best mon in the tier. This is because of the raw power and consistency between each of its sets. scarf is extremely threatening, hex breaks every single volt immunity so you're either losing a mon or getting volted on the entire game, np sets are so deadly and can be an auto win set, and even specs can just drop nukes on teams that gave up running ground types in fear of hex sets. And even within the non choiced sets you have variations like sitrus, boots, lefties, colbur, or even spell tag. It can be a win condition, revenge killer, defogger, nuke, ground killing wall breaker or even run with max hp investment to make it a better defogger and still pressure with wisp hex. This mon does it all and it does everything so well with no real down sides.

A -> A+
I think it was a mistake to drop this and even more of a mistake to want to drop it further. daniYSB vs Landon is a perfect example of why this mon went from shinning on balance when cores weren't developed enough and it just broke through everything, to now shining on offense because everything that switches into skorch is so crippled by knock that they just buckle under pressure. I think once people get used to seeing this as not an unwallable monster and more as something that forces your opponents into lose lose situations that can randomly just win the game against fat teams as we saw in Dani vs Landon. Offense is back and Skorch is king, players just need to adjust how they use and view it.

To explain more why this is the case, lets look at 3 pretty common answers to it in Cramorant, Rapidash, and Altaria. When you're able to get a knock off on them and get rocks out, your opponent is now in a really bad place because as offense you're able to just abuse them for free because every turn they have to switch into it + rocks damage you're able to get as much free momentum as you want as they have to click recovery every turn. And if they don't click recovery then they'll just instantly die to your offensive teams pressure and without Skorch switch ins this thing just claims a kill every time its in.

And against things like Qwil/Garb while less bad to take a knock off, you're still giving up one of the main enemies offense has to deal with in Helmet chip so you're still extremely happy in this situation especially when their only form of recovery is Pain Split and offense generally doesn't offer much to heal off of due to all your mons having very low HP investment so long term its still an absolute pain.

B+ --> A-
We have so many mons in the tier like Cramorant, Artucino, Altaria, and utility Rapidash that aim to slowly chip everything out with small bits of damage and status chip that you slowly lose the game over a longer grind game and Clefairy kinda just looks at all of that and sucks any kind of long term grind game win away from players which is insanely valuable right now. Plus with Thievul coming back hard into the meta its one of the best switch ins in the tier to it which is incredibly handy to have. It is passive which is why I don't think it should ever rise above A- but what it does is unmatched in the meta right now

C+ --> B+
Kind of a crazy jump but I didn't realize just how good this was until I watched other people using it and ended up having to play a lot of games vs G-terrain this week and holy cow this thing is so scary. An innate toxic immunity is game changing for bulky set up sweepers and Gorse being a Stored Power sweeper that can also just outright win vs all our darks means you're going to have to pack some pretty specific answers to this if you don't want to just get rolled over by this. I think more than Treve this really should be the mon we're ranking the overall viability of G-terrain with and to me G-terrain is a hard B+ playstyle.


Less Spicy Drops:

A --> A-
Pretty big fall from grace for the moth. We just have so many answers to it and even when it's broken its counters and sets up you're still getting out sped by specific scarfers, namely sawk, and just die. Sub sets struggle with this a bit less but then you run into the issue of things like Skorch just abusing you the entire game so you start in a lose-lose situation right from the get-go when using it. I think its still a highly threatening mon that every team will need to specifically answer on every team and its that threat level really carries it to maintain the A ranks despite all of this, and its still obviously going to be one of the best mons for general laddering as you'll net free wins all day against bad teams so I don't think it should drop any further than this.

A- --> B+
This kinda stopped being good awhile ago as its main niche was being a high momentum Skorch answer for volt turn but volt turns been seeing a lot less play and with Manectric and especially regular Rotom coming up in priority in the meta this has really fallen out even on those kinds of teams.


Stuff I agree/disagree with:

B+ to B-/C-
The ultimate shitmon somehow kept itself in B+. This thing is awful. All it's physical sets are hillariously bad and are outclassed by sawk and gurdurr who are stronger and pack knock off and stonewalled by tier king tangela and mainstays like uxie and qwilfish, rest talk is outclassed by throh and wishiwashi, and specs that has claimed to be good doesn't seem to offer anything over basculin who isn't very good rn apart from better bulk (and fighting stabs, forget about this lol). It's really hard to even consider putting this on a team.

Disagree. As a huge fan of the ultimate shitmon, I've got a bit to say on the subject. I think B+ is a fair rank mostly off the back of its Specs sets so I'll mostly be sticking to talking about that in this post because its extremely threatening. So the thing that really sets Poli up and honestly in my eyes better than Basculin right now is two fold: Its immunity to water which gives it a ton of free moments to come in and abuse stuff like Wishi and Qwil, and its secondary fighting STAB. You're so much more free to just slap this on teams and say this is my wall breaker that doubles as a water resist in ways that Basculin never can. And on top of that thanks to its secondary fighting STAB things like Ferroseed, Sp.d Wishi, and Audino can't just freely come in on it and wall it out which means that even tho you have a weaker hydro, you're actually walled by a lot less at the cost of being more prediction reliant. Scarf sets are also extremely viable albeit niche.

I've left some replays below provided by Dani when he was spamming my specs poli team to give you an idea. I think this mons closer to raising to A- than it is to dropping out of B+.

replays

Dani vs Evigaro for UMPL
Specs poli vs sun
Specs poli vs stall
Specs Poli even after taking a knock off being insane

A- to A
MONKE supremacy! If you add this to your team it offers soo much. Pivot? check. Late game cleaner/revenger? check. Wallbreaker? check. Passive recovery for teamates? check. Weakning earthquakes for certain teammates? check. Knock off + u-turn is a broken combo with an insane priority in grassy glide and banded wood hammers are no joke. It revenges silvally ground, rotom, manectric, basculin and weakened set up sweepers like frosmoth.

Hard agree. I voted A- on it on the last slate because we had just banned rain and without it in the tier for this to abuse I wasn't sure how good it would end up being. And turns out its still extremely good so I'd 100% support it to A.

A to A-/B+
Meta isn't kind to basculin right now. It's pretty hit or miss as a breaker rn and is unreliable. It's easily revenged and walled by too many teams rn to accomplish anything e.g jellicent, cramorant and even jynx have gotten better and stonewall it aswell as standard old faces in altaria wishiwashi and articuno speed tier leaves it easy to revenge for literally every scarfer gourgeist, manectric and ninetales. I guess scarf sets are probably better than the specs cuz one of basculins pros is that flip turn is so spammable.

So while I was 100% on board with dropping this all the way to B+, I'm now reconsidering how far it needs to fall after Czim pointed out that Scarf is a much better set than Specs right now and honestly I agree with that statement so I think time will tell how far exactly it needs to fall, but specs/CB Basculin is just in a really bad place right now.

 

[viet noa]

i’m not super informed on the meta right now, but i think i have an idea of what’s goin on. here’s what i agree/disagree with:
moving back to A+ is 100% something i agree with. i get that there are certain checks to it, but i feel like it’s such a versatile wallbreaker due to its amazing coverage and utility (knocking items, lowering defense, recovering hp)
moving as high as B+ is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion, as it’s only really present on grassy terrain teams. admittedly, i feel like we’re in a state where grassy terrain teams are understudied, so galarian rapidash’s potential is a bit better due to lack of experience. so i can agree it rising to B-, but i imagine it’ll fall back to C+ or C once people find good counterplay & the hype wears down. swoobat might potentially just be better, too.
moving to A is something i completely agree with, but it maybe even has potential for A+. its amazing combination of grassy terrain support, priority, utility in knock + uturn, and respectable power in wood hammer, makes it splashable on so many teams. even outside the context of grassy terrain teams, almost any teammate loves having grassy terrain out on the field.

while i unfortunately don’t have any personal nominations for now, it at least means the VR is looking nice. i would say that , , and could rise, but i don’t really have an in-depth explanation as to why. i just kinda feel that they’re slightly better than their ranks imply.

also hopefully rises, as i mentioned in a previous post why it’s pretty good

 

[JdRDMS]

Rapidash-Galar: C+ -> Higher: Agree
I built a team around this with 5gen well before it was ever nommed for a rank, and actually I have been having decent success with Galardash, and it's not even a Grassy Terrain team. I know that SD sets are generally outclassed by the Kanto form, but I really like the Fairy-Ground coverage that Galar provides, with the same 100 Attack and 105 Speed that its brother has. Play Rough allows GDash to nail things like Altaria, Appletun, Darkvally, and Gurdurr more easily than its Kanto form. High Horsepower allows it to lure in and then nuke many things that would otherwise hinder it, including Perrserker, Garbodor, Klinklang, Kanto Dash, Qwilfish, and the less common Poisonvally and Stunfisk-G. Also, not being weak to Stealth Rock allows Galar to run Life Orb more easily than Kanto, especially when combined with the fact that unlike Kantodash, Galardash’s moves don’t cause recoil. Like Kanto however, it can run Morning Sun to get an occasional heal with good predictions, making the LO chip damage less of an issue. Galar's immunity to Toxic is also a nice stand-out. Personally, SD alone is enough of a reason for it to be ranked in my opinion, even if it is somewhat outclassed by its Kanto form. However, I am aware that Grassy Terrain is a good play-style, and a Galardash with Grassy Seed and Calm Mind sounds really scary when given a set-up opportunity. I personally haven’t tried it myself yet, but I do know that that was a big factor for ranking GDash in the first place. Overall, Galardash's ability to be run a Special set under Grassy Terrain, something Kanto can't compete with, as well as a decent SD set makes it worthy of at least B- imo.

Crustle: C -> C+
Now that I have proper writing time, instead of having to rush to get a post out before a slate goes up, I can slow down and lay out my arguments carefully. It's seriously criminal that Crustle is still in C. It's a really solid suicide lead and Shell Smasher built into one, which is really unique in this meta. Thanks to Sturdy, with the exception of the fairly rare multi-hit move, Crustle is guaranteed to get its hazards up. After that, if you take little or no damage on your first turn (and little is pretty likely due to Crustle's 125 Defense stat), you can set up Shell Smash and use your combo of 105 Attack and STAB Stone Edge to do some serious damage to your opponent. And even if your opponent brings you down to low health and outspeeds you, Crustle primarily runs Custap Berry, which gives you a guaranteed second move outside of priority, and you’ll still deal good damage due to Crustle’s aforementioned high natural power and strong moves. Your fourth slot is also flexible; you can choose to run Spikes and do some hazard stacking (again benefited by Sturdy and Custap Berry) or Knock Off to improve Crustle's offensive capabilities after rocks are set. After Shell Smash, you get 678 Attack and 378 Speed, both of which are very good by ZU standards). Compare this to something like Shuckle, which is currently in the same rank as Crustle. While it also has Sticky Web, making it a better hazard setter on paper, it is also completely passive and is complete Taunt food as well, as it pretty much never runs any attacking moves. Anyway, take a look at some calcs:

At +2

+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If you run Knock Off, this could be a 1-2 KO)
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Garbodor: 262-309 (71.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 161-190 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ghost: 322-381 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alcremie: 267-315 (79.9 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gurdurr: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO (Another potential 1-2)
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 144-170 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO (You get the idea, 1-2)
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 234-276 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 392-464 (92.6 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

At +0

252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 186-220 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 270-320 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculin: 219-258 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Small: 130-154 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If Goureist is holding an item, Knock Off does 2/3 minimum)
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 214-253 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shiftry: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (also really easy to set up Shell Smash against Clefairy)

In addition, while Crustle is mainly used as a suicide lead, if it will really struggle against the opponent it is put up against, I have actually had success in calling it back, and then bringing it back in as a Shell Smash cleaner. Basically, it isn't totally worthless when not being used as a lead, which you can't say for many suicide leads. In terms of meta changes, Crustle likes that that we got Aurorus and Vanilluxe back, as it can OHKO both with Stone Edge, especially when you use it as a cleaner. In addition, like I said last time, the fact that Damp Rock has been banned means that Rain will become less common, so Crustle is more consistent to use. Previously, if you were facing a Rain team, you were pretty much prohibited from switching it out, as a lot of mons could surpass 378 Speed with Swift Swim and easily threaten it with powered up Water-type moves. Now that Rain is a LOT less common than it was prior, not only is Crustle still threatening as a suicide lead, but there will be a higher percentage of matches where you can switch it out and then bring it back in later safely. And in fact, to be honest, Crustle being C+ even before the two changes I mentioned happened wouldn't have been completely ridiculous, as a lot of the things I mentioned still held true. However, now that it doesn't have to worry about Rain as much, its function as a cleaner can be utilized more. All in all, the fact that Crustle provides a suicide lead hazard setter, early-game breaker, and serviceable mid-to-late-game cleaner into one package makes it a pretty worthwhile pick. It's way better than most of the other C-Rank mons, that's for sure (the ones that have a shot at being better than Crustle have already been nommed up too). Move it to C+ already, please!

Replays

- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1347274157 (Crustle tanks Appletun's Draco Meteor, showing its bulk, and sets up Rocks, allowing G-Dash to come in, set up Swords Dance, and KO 3 mons before being taken out by two priority moves from Kanga (which honestly it likely would've survived Sucker Punch if I had healed. Not the best opposing team, but shows off both mons enough imo.)
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1347312084 (Crustle sets up Rocks and manages to KO Audino, but falls to Drifblim at -1 due to getting paralyzed (might've fallen a little sooner if Quantum would just accept that Thwackey is better). Later, G-Dash comes in during the setup of another G-Dash, sets up, and KO's both the opposing G-Dash and Poisonvally.)
You can also see my previous, original nom for Crustle here, which has some more replays.

 

[Tuthur]

C to C+/B-
Jynx is actually one of the hardest mons to switch into if it can get onto the field safely. Rise of tangela teams means another jynx victim, and you can pair it with something like thwackey to lure tangela in and get in jynx safely and also gets in free entry vs altaria qwilfish lacking thunder wave and basculin. Specs is deadly which opens up it's movepool to use fancy tricks like focus blast to nail steels trick/psyshock to mess with special walls like audino and wishiwashi. A sleep move in lovely kiss with a pretty solid accuarcy is nice to break past those walls too, definitely better than c.

B to B+
coal is really solid right now. It manages to deal with special breakers like frosmoth, rotom formes, articuno and skuntank and also walling centiskorch and punishing u-turn from thwackey and cincinno and physical attacks with the annoying flame body and providing hazard support in both forms whether it's setting rocks/spikes or spinning them away.

I am more than supporting these two noms. I think Jynx should rise even higher somewhere arround B. The recent innovation of Choice Specs Jynx makes it even harder to handle as a lot of teams lack Psychic-resists that are also able to handle Ice Beam. czim vs PandaDoux game shows how deadly it can be.

Coal has established as a staple in bulky offense and balance teams, especially when paired with Tangela, trading Rapidash's Speed, recovery, and access to Toxic, for a better bulk, a Rock-typing, and hazard support. It should be in the A ranks.

So I know this just rose and I didn't vote for it to rise much. I was still a bit skeptical on PoisonVally's success in UMPL, however it has now clearly established as a top balance breaker and I can see it rise a whole rank. Just watch two of the last games from UMPL if you're not convinced by this monster: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1343798892-p9kmbeccgi75g0bmkqojm6dadjrxwldpw and https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8zu-561855.

UR to somewhere in Cs
Ima copy/paste what I said on my RMT. Ice-types are currently very potent breaker in ZU due to the lack of sturdy Ice-resists. Indeed most teams either rely on special walls not resisting Ice like Audino, Clefairy, and Articuno, or on Fire-types like Coalossal and Rapidash. Lapras is able to take advantage of both of these archetypes. Thanks to Perish Song + Whirlpool it can trap and remove special walls since most of them don't pack pivot moves, and due to its Water-typing, even without Surf, most Fire-types can't switch into it. Lapras' insane bulk let it trap a lot of things and abuses most of the bulky Pokemon in ZU, and let it defeat popular defensive sweepers like Galarian Rapidash, Uxie, and Alcremie.
Some replays: vs kay, who relied on Cram to handle Water-types and Clefairy to handle Ice-types. vs czim stops a gorse sweep, Bekaray demolishes me once again (using my own team), Lapras was able to basically trap anything in the team and remove it.

Vanilluxe should also get unranked and I agree with most of the noms that were made so far.

 

[Hitmonstars]

Gonna post some noms starting with
A- to A/A+
This mon is really good rn. Gterrain is really good rn and Thwakey supports the archetype amazingly.Grassy glide is super strong priority from Choice Band Thwakey which allows it to tear through offensive teams which rely on frail attackers or mons to weak to grass like Rotom and Silvally-Ground. I feel like Thwakey is A minimum but I could very well see A+. U-Turn to decimate Shiftry and gain Momentum alongside Knock off utility is just the Cherry on top

C- to C+
With the rise of Gterrain Drifblim becomes exponentially better.After a couple of Calm minds Drifblim becomes a incredibly scary sweeper as not much can take either Sball+tbolt or Sball+Air cutter.Its also able to wall out mons that could otherwise take it's hits like Kangaskhan with Strength sap.Its sweeping potential on gterrain I feel are enough to justify it being C+

C to B/B-
I think this mon is incredibly underated. Prority Will o Wisp and Knock off are incredibly good.Its also able to Stall with Toxic alongside it's incredibly useful priority recover.Knock off is also incredibly good on it allowing to reduce it's oponents power or longevity.

B+ to B-
While I don't believe Poliwrath is the ultimate shitmon I do think it's definitely not B+ Offensively it's outclassed by Sawk as a fighting type and defensively wishiwashi gives it fierce competition.However Water absorb and Water stab seperated Poliwrath from the others and these traits I feel make B- a Solid Placement for it.

 

[czim]

Few noms that greg or kay didn't steal

(Small) B+ to A- I think Gourgeist-small is incredible in this metagame. Its ability to handle Silv-Ground consistently makes it one of the more splashable Grass-types in the tier and it has great set versatility between Scarf, Band, Nasty Plot, or pivot with Toxic/Willo. Its natural bulk also lets it check common attackers like Sawk, Rhydon, Thwackey... making teambuilding easier.

A- to B+ Way less effective than everything in A- due to how common contact punishing is in the metagame, be it Rocky Helmet users like Garbodor and Qwilfish, Flame Body/Static from Coalossal/Stunfisk, or Ferroseed. Scarf is also less common now because Rain is no longer viable making it less appealing. It's still something everyone should prep for but shouldn't be on the A ranks.

A- to B+ Kinda on the same boat as Cinccino really, Gurdurr dislikes meta trends like Alcremie and Clefairy seeing more usage, and has a hard time making progress vs the always present Uxie, Garbodor and Qwilfish. The meta being overly physical with everyone prepping for Sawk/Kangaskhan/Silv-Ground/Thwackey also does it no favors, since most teams pack good physical blanket checks that can pressure Gurdurr like Tangela.

C+ to C Hype on this has kinda died a bit with Tangela being everywhere. Sure, it can still 2HKO with Heat Crash but nothing's really stopping Tangela from scouting Stonjourner and going into the Fire-resist that every team has. I think, overall, Lycanroc-Midnight and Kabutops are more threatening offensive Rock-types with SD right now and Ston is just a niche breaker with some nice defensive utility.

 

[5Dots]

A- -> B/B- C+ -> B/B-
A nice win condition on stall against all the physical attackers like Kang...however, I feel it hates the increased usage of grassy terrain sweepers like Thievul, Drifblim, and Trevenant. Sure, it still has a customizable pool of utility options like toxic spikes, will-o-wisp, hex, trick room, and trick, but it still struggles to find a place on teams other than defensive cores, and of all things faces competition with Runerigus (which is actually quite nice). Rune also sports most of what Cofagrigus does but with dual STABs, an additional electric immunity, stealth rock, greater defensive stats, solid attack to utilize, and better attacking STABs to use in poltergeist and Earthquake.

B- -> A-
Yes, it’s got terrible defensive stats and only one chance to sweep. Yes, it can still be outsped by Cinccino, A-Persian, Scarf Sawk, and Scarf Manectric. However, I feel that the one opportunity can be easily decided: Tangela, Altaria, and Thwackey are all common pokemon where it can come in after a teammate/double switching/u-turn core. Tangela is unable to fight back against much barring sleep powder, altaria has trouble stopping Swoobat barring toxic and confusion from Hurricane, and Thwackey‘s best option is to knock off grassy seed, which doesn’t even 2HKO it, meaning Swoobat can roost up, calm mind, and eventually overpower it. Bats can even be used early game if there aren’t consistent checks at times, meaning it doesn’t even necessarily have to be restricted to late-game and can overwhelm many pokemon, sometimes even outright 6-0ing a team!

Calcs

252 Atk Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. +3 0 HP / 0 Def Grassy Seed Swoobat in Grassy Terrain: 62-73 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 26.3% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Altaria Hurricane vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 72-85 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Silvally-Ground Rock Slide vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 108-128 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Swoobat: 76-90 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Wishiwashi Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swoobat: 51-61 (18.5 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

Replays

After getting Rocks up, Swoobat was able to take advantage a lack of checks and easily setup in front of thwackey:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1347905836-uv8q218fwezxkdgp1vtpri8f3bcyz7cpw
With proper double-switching from Lycanroc-M, Swoobat was easily able to take advantage of a weakened team, easily able to setup against Tangela and Altaria. Also was able to easily shrug off a “It’s super effective move” from choice scarfer to prove it’s not paper-thin:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1348596021-eb38x9rkz7sx7509fkoqt1xcab4nwuvpw

 

[viet noa]

agreements/disagreements:

to C+ ~ Hard Agree
i’ve always been a huge fan of unburden drifblim under terrain, but with there being a lack of ghost resists/immunities in this tier, i feel like drifblim has great potential as a terrain sweeper. strength sap completely screws with potential revenge killers, calm mind + some bulk investment gives this pokémon some respectable defenses, and shadow ball + tbolt packs a punch after boosts. all it needs is some team support to take out pokémon like audino & others for drifblim to wreak havoc. it’s still niche, as sweepers like swoobat require less team support, but drifblim still provides a really rewarding payoff.

to A- ~ Agree
i’ve been in denial for a while, i’ll be honest. i thought that it didn’t have the strength to be a great banded user, its special attack was too low to make it a nasty plot cleaner, etc etc. honestly i was completely wrong. this thing has an amazing speed tier, first of all. its not-amazing attacking stats are compensated by STAB power whip and poltergeist, as well as leaf storm and shadow ball. not to mention, its moveset is insane, ranging from massive coverage like focus & fire blast, to passive moves like trick and destiny bond. this thing has absolutely insane utility, being able to run dozens of different sets. i feel like the unpredictability of small gourgeist helps it have great value, making it deserving of an A- ranking.

to B- ~ Slightly Agree
i get that it’s not nearly the threat it once was, both offensively and defensively. i do agree that it doesn’t belong in B+, but i’m still a little hesitant on dropping it too far. its resttalk sets have its place on defensive & balance teams, as it’s a great switch-in against a variety of attacks & can annoy the crap out of wallbreakers that poliwrath can handle. it even has a little bit of usage offensively, as i think choice specs poliwrath is a fun little niche that can get surprise OHKO’s on unsuspecting walls like ferroseed. (i totally didn’t learn that the hard way, i swear)

to B+ ~ Disagree
cinccino still has fantastic speed, fantastic coverage, and the power of its moves alone make up for its relatively okay attack stat. i know it’s a bit of a meme, but i unironically think king’s rock is great on cinccino, especially when your team doesn’t want a second choice item user.

my own personal nomination:

to A+
i know i said that this thing should drop about a month ago, but i was dead wrong. bulky cores are on the rise to handle the rise of offensive teams built around grassy terrain, as well as the hazard stack and voltturn teams already prominent. we know this from tangela’s meteoric increase in popularity, as well as steady risers like alcremie. nevertheless, all defensive cores and defensive pokémon have to take into account skuntank. we all know about how good taunt + nasty plot is, and how it messes up any unprepared defensive core. with skuntank’s fantastic typing on top of taunt, many walls can barely dent it passively nor actively. it does admittedly struggle against rapidash one-on-one, but rapidash also doesn’t like switching into a sludge bomb, and taunt on the switch helps skuntank switch out afterwards.

another underrated aspect of skuntank is its speed, which although isn’t particularly fast, makes skuntank face nigh zero competition in its speed tier. this is why i think bulkier spreads of skuntank are underrated, such as how 144+ speed lets it outpace jolly flapple and adamant thwackey. while it’s very hard to find a scenario where skuntank sweeps a team, the support that it brings to its teammates by taking down these walls is incredible. in particular, skuntank pairs fantastically with physical sweepers/cleaners like kangaskhan, sawk, and cinccino.

skuntank may seem like a pure stallbreaker, and it sure does that well, but i think those capabilities also make it an absolutely remarkable offensive support mon.

sorry if i talk too much lol

 

[JdRDMS]

Shuckle: C -> C-/UR
I don't feel like I need to explain this. This thing is so bad right now. Complete Taunt food and completely passive, for hazard stack? Not worth it. Webs are so bad, especially with Rain basically gone now. And without webs, Shuckle is completely outclassed by most other hazard setters, such as Crustle, which can actually attack things and doesn't go bye-bye at the sight of a Taunt user (it's seriously criminal that Crustle is still in C, that thing is actually pretty good). Also auto-loses to quite a few top mons. Almost everything else in C has a distinct, viable niche, and if they don't they've already been nommed down. Shuckle however, is just terrible.


Lilligant: C -> C-
This thing loses to SO MANY mons. Frosmoth and Butterfree are way better Quiver Dancers, and they have actual abilities that you will actually take advantage of, not to mention better moves and STABs. I can kind of see some niches here, but nothing that make it worthy of being above C-.

 

[5gen]

B- to B
Klinklang is simply better than B- because of its effectiveness as a sweeper. Due to its typing and stats, Klinklang takes advantage of popular Pokemon such as Tangela, Uxie, double dance Alcremie, Articuno, etc and can quickly snowball with Shift Gear. After a Shift Gear, Klinklang can steamroll past revenge killers such as Choice Scarf Sawk and Basculin. Moreover, Thwackey pairs quite well with Klinklang thanks to Knock Off support and passive recovery from Grassy Terrain. Also, Klinklang is a solid Pokemon against Grassy Terrain teams, which are potent right now. Another aspect to Klinklang is how it can run Toxic over Wild Charge to break down checks like Coalossal, Stunfisk, and Rapidash. Could rise more but Klinklang can struggle to set up in this meta filled with threats like WoW Rotom, Scarf Sawk, Silvally-Ground, Rapidash, Scarf Manectric, and so on.

B- to B

I've been using CB Liepard on the ladder and both tlenit and quagg featured CB Liepard in the Spring Seasonal and UMPL to good success. Choice Band Liepard is a threat and half due to STAB Knock Off and ability to play around Knock Off switch-ins. Due to its great speed tier, Liepard has plenty of opportunity to spam Knock Off and instantly apply pressure against the opponent. Fairy-types drop to Gunk Shot and Knock Off switch-ins like Silvally-Dark and Alolan Persian are pivoted on. Liepard also has some neat 4th options in Trick and Copycat, both of which can come clutch in the right situations. Main drawbacks to Liepard are its pitiful bulk and lack of defensively can make it difficult to fit onto teams and also easy to revenge kill.

A VR update is planned for this coming week so this thread will be locked tonight.

 

[viet noa]

last minute noms:
down to A- ~ sadly its checks are really good in this meta, and basculin’s frailty makes it less reliable than other choice users with greater utility. still very strong tho
down to B or B- ~ i don’t really understand much about this pokémon niche besides being a very good lead/support mon. i don’t see a ton of upside outside of that.
down to C+ ~ unfortunately gets outclassed as a hazard removal mon, and suffers from being ice type
up to B- ~ has quite substantial potential with nasty plot sets and specs sets. has utility with lovely kiss, dummy strong spatk, great coverage, and a solid speed tier

 

[Tuthur]

Some last minutes noms,

A+ -> A, it's honestly hard to justify using Fish over Garb in a meta so grass heavy.

A -> B+, Basculin really has a hard time in a meta with so many Water-resists, even with Ice Beam. It's also hard to justify using a Pokémon with absolutely no defensive utility in this meta, especially when it struggles with some of the top mon like Thwackey, Kangaskhan, and Tangela.

B+ -> B, this mon is never used. It's hard to fit in a team, Poltergeist isn't great in a Normal-heavy meta and also means you can't use our many good Knock Off users. This thing needs way too much support for what it does.

B- -> C-, since Articuno dropped, this mon has completely disappeared from the tier. The good speed tier and access to Knock Off is enough to keep it ranked on the VR for now imo.

C+ -> C-, outside of Rotom and Badsculin, Eldegoss is getting owned by all our special attackers so you never want to use it as your special wall and physically defensive sets are heavily outclassed by Tangela.

C -> UR, when was the last time you swept or wallbroke with Lilligant? There are so many Grass-resists in this tier due to Thwackey and Electric Terrain is unviable now.

C -> UR, this is just bad now.

C -> UR, stall need a better fairy that something OHKOed by Thievul.

C -> UR, should never have been ranked, it's outclassed by Rotom-Frost, Jynx, and Aurorus.

 

[5Dots]

UR -> C-
I think Pawniard, while outclassed by Silvally-Dark as a dark type cleaner/wallbreaker, distinguishes itself nicely with two things: a unique, decent defensive typing with Dark-steel and sucker punch. STAB Iron head can be a gamebreaking tool at times with its flinching chances, and grassy terrain being a common force means that it can use its defensive typing to retaliate. The increased amount of hazards in the metagame means that defoggers will have to play even more cautiously with pawniard, as articuno does not want to give this chess piece a defiant boost with defog, nor does intimidate qwilfish accidentally want to switch in. Silvallies and A-Persian want to be more careful before pivoting out of bad mus. Lastly, toxic is a common Sight in balance and stall, as most sweepers dislike their sweep being frustrated with poison damage + protect. Pawniard doesn’t care about that.
I’ll try to find better replays ;_;
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1354251101-mmbkb0bk1f7hibkfzhpskuf5kxsolqhpw
Pawniard was able to stomach a +1 Aurorus Hyper Voice and play advantageous mindgames with its sucker punch, and was able to save the team from being swept by virtue of its typing and aforementioned priority.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Thank you dani for your help in the last update, and welcome Landon as the next member on the VR rotational council! We will be voting within the next few days.

For now I just wanted to say that you guys killed it with the VR noms!!! What a pleasure those were to catch up on and I'm very grateful for all your responses.
One thing is unanimous: Greg, Kay, hiss, tuthur, Hitmonstars, and JdRDMS all agree Grassy Terrain is doing very well right now. Rises for Thwackey and other terrain sweepers are across the board. I totally agree. I love gterrain as HO and my only concern is the stall MU but there's a lot of breakers that can fix that.
Centi was a little decisive but I'm more in favor of a rise rather than a drop. I've wanted Centi for S rank in the past for just how punishing it is. That pretty much guaranteed Knock Off support is phenomenal, of course on top of all the wallbreaking capability it offers.
Jynx was a late bloomer but wow did it make an impact in the recent meta. Lot of hype, and even if it could potentially be rash as the meta could adapt to it, it undeniably is still deserving of a rise.
There's a stark vacancy of Steel-types in the A ranks, and for good reason; no one is speaking that highly of the few remaining Steel-types we have. If anything, there's minor support of examples like Klinklang and even Pawniard getting a little better, but I suppose for now our defensive cores are more reliant on status sponges, Poison-types, and RestTalk to thrive rather than all the wally support of the Steel typing. That's fine, but watch out for CM Alcremie and Gapadash.

last second nom:
UR > C
Despite having somewhat of a meme status in ZU (largely because a certain tour player used Grookey over Thwackey in many big tour games), Grookey does have a legit niche. It's a secondary terrain setter, which is abused on some teams so Grookey can be expendable and you still have Thwackey for the late-game to set terrain / Grassy Glide. Think of it this way: Grookey competes with other Grassy Gliders that are stronger, but Grookey's used for the utility. I find it interchangeable with Trev and Flapple, and all Grookey becomes is another possible addition to try on gterrain HO.

I used double-surge offense on my ZULT run; forgot to save more replays my b ;_; Here's what I do have + replays from a room tour
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1339281877-xbk15kyvmfh82zprbcuxrcektuj08yrpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1339243639

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Update! thx Tuthur for compiling votes. The voting sheet is here.

Rises

Bouffalant C- -> C
Centiskorch A -> A+
Coalossal B -> B+
Drifblim C- -> C+
Gourgeist-S B+ -> A-
Jynx C -> B+
Klinklang B- -> B
Lapras UR -> C
Liepard B- -> B
Lycanroc-Midnight UR -> C
Rapidash-Galar C+ -> B
Silvally-Poison C -> B
Swoobat B- -> B
Thwackey A- -> A

Drops

Basculin A -> B+
Carbink C -> UR
Cofagrigus A- -> B+
Cryogonal B- -> C+
Eldegoss C+ -> C
Frosmoth A -> A-
Gurdurr A- -> B+
Lilligant C -> C-
Mawile C -> UR
Pincurchin C -> C-
Qwilfish A+ -> A
Rotom-S A- -> B+
Shuckle C -> C-
Stonjourner C+ -> C
Stunfisk-Galar B- -> C+
Type: Null C -> C-
Vanilluxe C -> UR

Former giants in the tier like Cofagrigus, Frosmoth, and Basculin all received drops likely due to teams gradually adjusting to them. Others like Centiskorch, Thwackey, and Coalossal are proving to withstand the changing metagame and likely are the best they've ever been. Thwackey should also be mentioned specifically as the consensus shows that gterrain is doing very well too; Swoobat, Rapidash-Galar, and Driftblim all rose as well.

Some votes that didn't go through include a failed Rotom to S rank nom and Cinccino to B. Rotom is versatile, strong, and centralizing, but perhaps its poor bulk and mediocre Speed make it too easy to check. Cinccino stays at A- due to kay changing his vote last minute, and what keeps it as an A- threat to me will be that raw power + coverage that makes it so hard to switch into unless you have a good counter for it; even then, U-turn is tough. I also really enjoy its Speed tier, and only the inaccurate moves + prediction reliant plays associated with Cinccino are holding it back imo.

I'll unlock the thread and update the VR shortly! Once again, thank you everyone for your noms.

 

[viet noa]

tysm to the vr team for the hard work as usual !!! :>

- i definitely agree with raising coalossal up to b+. it’s been a staple hazard removal mon because of its great bulk, and it loves how basculin & others haven’t been as popular lately.
- jynx rising all the way to b+ is a big surprise to me, but i can definitely get behind it. it’s extremely difficult to switch into this pokémon. whether it’s thru nasty plot or specs. i even think it has potential as a scarf user, due to it being faster than scarf users like rotom/sawk and also having enough power & coverage. it also learns trick, which is great.
- i’m glad mawile fell to unranked. all it takes is one switcheroo against mawile to completely screw over defensive/stall teams built around mawile.
- thwackey being in a tier is cool but imo it fits in a+ better

 

[5Dots]

ZU VR Thoughts

Why Pokemon rose/dropped

Rises

A -> A+

Centiskorch is a centerpiece to offense teams with its excellent moves in Fire Lash, Leech Life, and Knock Off. A great attack stat in addition to those moves makes it a difficult task to switch into and easy to support, despite its glaring weaknesses to Rocks.

A- -> A

Grassy Terrain has stepped up on bat, with Thwackey serving as a versatile setter, wallbreaker, and late-game cleaner with its versatility in item choices. Even aside from Terrain, its unparalleled access to Grassy Glide grants it to be one of the premier revenge killers in the tier.

:Gourgeist-S: B+ -> A-

Gourgeist’s wide variety of set choices render it a deadly force to be reckoned with, with options like Choice Scarf for speed control and Life Orb for wallbreaking becoming more and more prominent in the meta.

Coalossal B to B+

Despite its horrific Fire/Rock typing, Coalossal’s respectable stats, access to Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and Spikes, and great matchups against titans like Articuno and Frosmoth grant it a solid role as one of the top Fire types in the tier.

C -> B+

Previously considered to be too frail, Jynx’s massive rise attributes to its destructive specs sets tearing teams apart given a safe switchin. Scarf and nasty plot sets have also seen experimentation, proving how its massive reward can offset its risk.

B- -> B

With unusually high speed for a steel type, a good Attack stat, and the combination of Shift Gear and Gear Grind, Klinklang has geared up to be a strong setup sweeper that can dismantle slower teams. Magnet Rise has seen more use to throw a nasty surprise to traditional checks like Silvally-Ground.

B- -> B

Liepard’s disruptive movepool in tandem with Prankster and a great speed tier enable it to be a hassle for offensive and stall teams. Even with the ban to Damp Rock, its set versatility and variety of priority tools give it a bump to B.

:Rapidash-G: C+ -> B

One of the two deadliest Grassy Terrain sweepers, G-Rapidash has reasserted its threatening presence with its neat typing, better bulk, and access to Stored Power to dismantle passive builds.

C -> B

Silvally-Poison has been working out quite well with its Work Up sets, making it difficult throughout the game to distinguish its wide coverages sets. The toxic immunity and wide variety of sets grants it to be a versatile stallbreaker and attacker, hence its rise.

B- -> B

Swoobat’s lethality as a late-game cleaner or even wallbreaker can be displayed by how easily it can nuke teams after one Calm Mind boost in terrain, where it can easily set up in front of Pokemon such as Altaria, Audino, and Tangela.

C- to C+

Drifblim’s access to Strength Sap to deter physical attackers gives it a unique niche on Terrain teams, complemented by being the fastest Pokemon against i boosted foes after an Unburden boost. However, its demand for significant support and competition with fellow Unburden Pokemon Thievul leaves it lower ranked than other Grassy Terrain abusers.

C- -> C

While overshadowed by Kangaskhan in most roles, a nifty ability in Sap Sipper mixed with beefy bulk brings Bouffalant a role as a solid wincon, evident with its excellent matchups against Tangela, Thwackey, and Trevenant. Alternatively, Bouffalant could be more dangerous as an attacker with Reckless at the expense of missing out on walling the aformentioned grass types.

UR -> C

Despite Grassy Terrain’s popularity, Ice types being demanded more means that Lapras finally has a chance to shine with its great bulk and capability to trap passive Pokemon like Ferroseed, Clefairy, and Articuno.

UR -> C

Access to a powerful Close Combat and Sucker Punch enables it to be deceptively fast as an attacker, and provides a good hand in covering Grass’ vulnerability to getting walled by Flying and Fire types. Swords Dance enables this to become even more dangerous, capable of being an dangerous sweeper.

Drops



A to A-

Frosmoth fares worse overall from Centiskorch’s and Klinklang rises, and the physical attacks being thrown from Terrain to hyper offense make it more difficult to fit on a team, though its capabilities as a strong special attacker still make it a great offense force to be reckoned with. It is also vulnerable to getting KOed from its initially mediocre speed tier, and even after a boost, opposing walls like Articuno and Ferroseed could take it on without much hassle.

A- -> B+

Basculin’s difficulty in firing off its powerful attacks are amplified with Grassy Terrain’s grip. Basculin has to choose between getting walled by physical walls like Tangela or by Special walls like Alcremie, which is reflected by its drop in ranking.

A- -> B+

With each VR update, Cofagrigus takes one step closer to its brother. Despite its customizable movepool and solid defenses, its lacking offenses and best set revolving around its physical defenses as a wincon lead it to falter against fast-paced offense teams, which leaves it difficult to perform as a physical wall throughout game-to-game basses, although it still comfortably finds nice homes to balance and stall teams.

A- to B+

Gurdurr not being able to break Tangela even after several Bulk Ups disappoints, and the rise in the fast-paced Grassy Terrain makes it more difficult to slot on teams. Sawk being a staple for speed control and cleaning further hurts Gurdurr, as it doesn’t have to fear losing Eviolite to fully fulfill its role as a Fighting type.
:Rotom-S: A- -> B+

Competition with Rotom formes as an Electric type

B- to C+

High competition with Articuno as a defogger, the increased Rapid Spin users like Morpeko and Coallosal, and the amount of physical attackers in the tier, Cryogonal’s place has slightly faltered, though it still performs well as a specially defensive tank with access to moves like Recover and Rapid Spin.

:Eldegross: C+ to C

Tangela’s looming presence in stomaching physical hits and larger bulk means Eldegoss has less room to shine for its role as a specially defensive hazard remover. However, its niches in better mixed defenses and Rapid Spin still give it the nod over Tangela.

C to C-

Although Lilligant is still a good abuser of both terrains, its barren coverage options result in it failing to break counters like Articuno and Ninetales even when boosted. Competition with Butterfree and Frosmoth as Quiver Dance users don’t help matters either.

C -> C-

Without the helpful healing properties of Grassy Terrain and priority in Grassy Glide, the sea urchin discovers how limited its own terrain could be. Even with nifty properties such as the added power of Rising Voltage and the immunity to sleep, Electric Terrain simply has not met the standards needed to be more than a niche, with abusers in Grassy tending to perform far better.

C to C-

Despite holding the title as the premier Sticky Web setter, it finds itself questioning whether it is a crown to hold on. Nonexistent offenses, a horrible typing, and being unable to fulfill other roles lead it to being susceptible to do nothing at all in some games, hence it entering C-.

:Type: Null: C to C-

Type Null finds itself harder to fit as a tanky pivot with immense competition with WIshiwashi and Uxie, and its lacking offensive presence leads it to being vulnerable as setup fodder and being worn down easily with how popular hazards are.

C -> UR

Carbink just hasn’t been the same since the Magmortar/Drampa meta. Countless rock-types ranging from the versatile Rhydon to the specially dangerous Aurorus provide much more support in terms of Stealth Rock support, and just doesn’t fit in its marginal niche as a Trick Room setter.

C -> UR

While steel types are finally getting some sunshine, Mawile tragically isn’t. It fails to impress as a defensive Stealth Rock setter with its fraility, and doesn’t hit hard enough to warrant any offensive use despite Sheer Force. Klinklang and Ferroseed perform far better at such roles.

C -> UR
Vanilluxe melts without Snow Warning - a shallow movepool and mediocre speed tier mixed with ice competition from Aurorus, Piloswine, and even Lapras has relegated this ice cream cone back to the freezer. Despite an increased search for ice-type breakers, Vanilluxe sadly does not compare to the aforementioned options even with its high special attack and miniscule niche of having Taunt.

 

[hayedenn]

just wanna write a big post on silvally-electric cus i missed the deadline last week for a nom

Silvally-Electric UR > C-/C
Silvally is one of the most difficult things to rank on a VR due to its inherent competition with itself (idr who I talked about this with I think it was Kay or greg who mentioned this) and I think that makes it harder to rank things such as Elecvally when you're using it over something such as Groundvally or w/e etc etc. Due to how hard it is to fit more niche vallys on a team (see: Elec/Water/Grass/Poison) it often leads you to having to build a team around them which in turn makes it harder to justify a ranking, but I do think there is a case to be made for Elecvally.

Elecvally's main competition is other offensive electric-types in the tier such as Rotom, Manectric, Rotom-Frost, Morpeeko, and Boltund. That may seem like stiff competition, and it is, but something Elecvally has over those other Pokemon is its ability to run a mixed breaker set and bypass the common checks (or at least threaten them) that either sole physical or special breakers face. Running Mane/Rotom and struggling with Altaria/Clef/etc.? Elecvally is able to beat the former with Ice Beam and the latter with Multi Attack. Boltund struggling with Rhydon/Altaria/Tangela? It's able to threaten all three with Ice Beam. Elecvally is also able to threaten common bulky-steels such as Ferroseed and Klinklang with Flamethrower.

set

Silvally-Electric @ Electric Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 12 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Work Up
- Multi-Attack
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

set description

With these EVs (that could perhaps be more fine-tuned), Elecvally is able to always OHKO no-bulk Frosmoth from full with Multi-Attack at +1, with the rest dumped into Special Attack and Speed. As mentioned earlier, Multi-Attack is Elecvally's biggest niche, letting it bypass common special walls after a boost or two while still threatening the Ground/Dragon/Steel/Grass-types that would otherwise wall a special set. Ice Beam and Flamethrower are the coverage moves of choice, letting vally hit Altaria/Rhydon/other-grounds for big damage while Flamethrower hits Steel-types such as Ferroseed for big damage.

Elecvally is best paired with other Electric-types (imo) in order to maximize its effectiveness. It's able to break (or at least bigly damage) common Rotom checks such as Audino, Clefairy, Altaria, Rhydon (unless it's spdef in which case it doesn't), Frosmoth, and Ferroseed without Rotom having to trade its item.

team i use w/ elecvally (click for paste)


The idea behind this team is, as stated previously, is that Elecvally is able to open up Rotom to go crazy by hitting Rotom's checks hard with its coverage moves. Cram/Tang/Don fill out the defensive core, covering most of the metagame while Klinklang acts as not only an Ice/Psychic resist but also as a late-game clean.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1356615477-407qiuflsft2yr3dtto8x8y23os6nx2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1358280361-tuq6ycf8uff2yn6sslhepx3n7oyu42xpw <- Ik I played poorly with Elecvally but if I didn't get crit and didn't stay in against Stunfisk for some reason, you could see how much Elecvally could have terrorized their team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1358278136-ejy0ace5uaxnankci48jzcnjicjpix7pw