drampa's grandpa
I think the spikes might be better for hippowdon along with a different rock setter
I think the spikes might be better for hippowdon along with a different rock setter
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STAB STABmons [Mamoswine yOINKED]
- Thread starter drampa's grandpa
- Start date
Moody and Dynamaxing are currently banned on the server due to OU banning them. This is NOT supposed to be how it works, and is not something the council put into action. They may be unbanned shortly, whereupon the council will decide what course of action to take.
Now that we're a month in I think it's about time we start taking a harder look at some of the things which have been causing issues in our metagame.
Gonna start with the worst and least important overall
Moody is a horrible idea for an ability overall, and removing evasion didn't fix the problems it causes competitive games. While it's incredibly unreliable and not broken by any stretch, it's uncompetitive to the extreme. A couple boosts in the right spot and you can just get swept. This abillity gives the metagame nothing that actually helps foster the sort of environment we're looking for and should be banned.
It's worth noting OU, AAA, and Camo have already banned it. We won't be alone. Please let me know if there's any actual disagreement about this, but I don't really anticipate any. It's well known that Moody is one of the most RNG-based things GF has ever made.
Dynamaxing!
(this pic is Dynaguy from the Incredibles)
The problems of dynamaxing are pretty well known at this point. It eases set-up, costs nothing at the building stage, can be used on any mon on any team, enhances breaking potential and choiced mons flexibility etc etc.
In STABmons in particular I want to focus on two things. First: the effect of the bulk increase. In STABmons revenge killing is a very prominent part of the metagame (moreso than most tiers yes). Priority is everywhere: Extreme Speed from Diggersby, Obstagoon, or Sylveon, Ice Shard from Darmanitan-G, Shadow Sneak from Dragapult, etc. When you introduce a mechanic like dynamaxing into the mix it gets a lot more difficult. A Pokemon that has obtained one turn of set up can often Dynamax to live the priority that is coming its way. This will let it live, likely KO the main counterplay that the opposing team had, and go on to wreak havoc for at least two more turns. This is an extremely safe play for the set-up user, and playing around it is extremely dangerous for the opponent, when it would normally be the other way around.
Second: The better moves. More mons have stronger moves mean max moves are stronger and harder to tank mean Dynamax turns can be spent more effectively. Alternatively think of it as: Shorter overall battles in an offensive meta like STABmons make the 3 turns of Dynamaxing and their turns of effects more effective than in slower metagames.
Given that OU has banned Dynamaxing which completely clears up any potential policy issues and the mechanic only, to my mind, gets better in STABmons, I think that we should add it to our official banlist. I'm sure there's more I could say here, so let me know if you disagree (or if you agree and have more to add ;) )
Darmanitan is utterly ridiculous. It has pretty much no switchins without prediction. It has priority here so being faster isn't an option.
There are so many matches where I can lead this and gain a ton of momentum due to the complete lack of switchins. There's no rampardos syndrome here either; it's decently fast, has priority, and has acceptable bulk. There are no defensive ways around this Pokemon, and most offensive Pokemon are just OHKO'd by the right move. It essentially mandates a Rotom or very specific offensive pressure on every team (nb: Rotom isn't a counter to every set either but it's way better than most mons).
Here's a replay where Corsola checks Darmanitan but can't switch in: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1031621146
Here's a replay where Darmanitan gains momentum and abuses its speed tier well, leading to it cleaning late game. Also shows Dynamax being broken well (but not on Darm): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1030730271
Here's a replay where (Hills') Darm KOs some stuff while Corsola walls my entire team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1021432824
I don't have any more I haven't saved that many replays yet this gen
In essence: Darmanitan is overwhelmingly powerful without having the major drawbacks that would keep it balanced. I fully expect it to be banned from OU but it's a problem here so I'd like to deal with it here.
Now that we're a month in I think it's about time we start taking a harder look at some of the things which have been causing issues in our metagame.
Gonna start with the worst and least important overall
Moody is a horrible idea for an ability overall, and removing evasion didn't fix the problems it causes competitive games. While it's incredibly unreliable and not broken by any stretch, it's uncompetitive to the extreme. A couple boosts in the right spot and you can just get swept. This abillity gives the metagame nothing that actually helps foster the sort of environment we're looking for and should be banned.
It's worth noting OU, AAA, and Camo have already banned it. We won't be alone. Please let me know if there's any actual disagreement about this, but I don't really anticipate any. It's well known that Moody is one of the most RNG-based things GF has ever made.
Dynamaxing!
(this pic is Dynaguy from the Incredibles)
The problems of dynamaxing are pretty well known at this point. It eases set-up, costs nothing at the building stage, can be used on any mon on any team, enhances breaking potential and choiced mons flexibility etc etc.
In STABmons in particular I want to focus on two things. First: the effect of the bulk increase. In STABmons revenge killing is a very prominent part of the metagame (moreso than most tiers yes). Priority is everywhere: Extreme Speed from Diggersby, Obstagoon, or Sylveon, Ice Shard from Darmanitan-G, Shadow Sneak from Dragapult, etc. When you introduce a mechanic like dynamaxing into the mix it gets a lot more difficult. A Pokemon that has obtained one turn of set up can often Dynamax to live the priority that is coming its way. This will let it live, likely KO the main counterplay that the opposing team had, and go on to wreak havoc for at least two more turns. This is an extremely safe play for the set-up user, and playing around it is extremely dangerous for the opponent, when it would normally be the other way around.
Second: The better moves. More mons have stronger moves mean max moves are stronger and harder to tank mean Dynamax turns can be spent more effectively. Alternatively think of it as: Shorter overall battles in an offensive meta like STABmons make the 3 turns of Dynamaxing and their turns of effects more effective than in slower metagames.
Given that OU has banned Dynamaxing which completely clears up any potential policy issues and the mechanic only, to my mind, gets better in STABmons, I think that we should add it to our official banlist. I'm sure there's more I could say here, so let me know if you disagree (or if you agree and have more to add ;) )
Darmanitan is utterly ridiculous. It has pretty much no switchins without prediction. It has priority here so being faster isn't an option.
Dead to STAB
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 330-388 (102.8 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dead to priority
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracozolt: 338-402 (105.2 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 338-402 (104 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 258-306 (88.3 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 235-277 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Dead to coverage
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Bulky Mons:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bewear: 274-324 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 422-500 (100.4 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 286-338 (74.4 - 88%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Lives reliably:
????
Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. Wonder Guard Shedinja: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
oh wait they ran Flare Blitz?
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shedinja: 1160-1366 (116000 - 136600%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Your best options:
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 159-187 (49 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
BUT
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 355-419 (116.7 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
essentially Strength Sap
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 330-388 (102.8 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dead to priority
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracozolt: 338-402 (105.2 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 338-402 (104 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 258-306 (88.3 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 235-277 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Dead to coverage
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Bulky Mons:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bewear: 274-324 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 422-500 (100.4 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 286-338 (74.4 - 88%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Lives reliably:
????
Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. Wonder Guard Shedinja: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
oh wait they ran Flare Blitz?
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shedinja: 1160-1366 (116000 - 136600%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Your best options:
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 159-187 (49 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
BUT
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 355-419 (116.7 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
essentially Strength Sap
There are so many matches where I can lead this and gain a ton of momentum due to the complete lack of switchins. There's no rampardos syndrome here either; it's decently fast, has priority, and has acceptable bulk. There are no defensive ways around this Pokemon, and most offensive Pokemon are just OHKO'd by the right move. It essentially mandates a Rotom or very specific offensive pressure on every team (nb: Rotom isn't a counter to every set either but it's way better than most mons).
Here's a replay where Corsola checks Darmanitan but can't switch in: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1031621146
Here's a replay where Darmanitan gains momentum and abuses its speed tier well, leading to it cleaning late game. Also shows Dynamax being broken well (but not on Darm): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1030730271
Here's a replay where (Hills') Darm KOs some stuff while Corsola walls my entire team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1021432824
I don't have any more I haven't saved that many replays yet this gen
In essence: Darmanitan is overwhelmingly powerful without having the major drawbacks that would keep it balanced. I fully expect it to be banned from OU but it's a problem here so I'd like to deal with it here.
This is a sand team I've had a lot of success with on the ladder.
Banded Tyranitar can ohko almost every single pokemon in the game with head smash / darkest lariat. Diamond Storm was way better but heh.. that works. Double priority does very well at preventing any sweep and killing the frail attackers. The good Spdef allow you to switch easily on special moves and create some wholes.
Life orb Excadrill is an absolute threat. Under sand it is very hard to switch into. Also for now dynamax isn't banned, and it uses it well. Oh, and double iron bash is broken, ban this thing please.
Sylveon is one of the best mons in the tier. Even with little SpA investment, pixilate Boomburst is very hard to switch into ; and the few things that can take it usually don't like Mystical fire. Its very good SpDef allows it to switch into special attackers even without investment. Wishpass benefits the team a lot, especially Seismitoad and Tyranitar.
Rotom-Heat is a solid defoger. I tried a lot of things due to the wide movepool it has, and I'm pretty sure this one is optimal. It's impressive how many teams don't like switching into lava plume.
You know what Seismitoad does, very good rocker and checks both Dracovish and Dracozolt. Sylveon being able to heal it with Wish is huge.
Dragapult is potentially the best mon in the metagame. This set just hits hard. Shadow sneak, along with ttar's priorities and Excadrill under sand make this team prettymuch sweep proof.
Other options :
Jolly is an option on Dragapult to tie with the other ones if you feel like Shadow sneak isn't enough. It also outspeed scarf Dracovish/zolt.
Clangorous soul can be ran over U-turn on Dragapult, but I prefer the momentum U-turn provides. Sweeping is pretty hard as priorities are everywhere.
Freeze dry is decent on Rotom, but usually doesn't do shit. Strenght sap isn't needed.
Rapid spin over Swords dance on Excadrill can provide a last resort option against hazards. Swords dance is very rarely used, but I still prefer it.
Knock off is obviously an option over Darkest lariat on Tyranitar. I find lariat a little more consistent against bulky mons that can take knock off and get the hp back.
Stone edge and Rock slide on ttar are both ok.
Jolly can be considered on Excadrill for various reasons that I'm too lazy to explicit.
Threats : Broken things. Dragapult is a threat if you have no gameplan. Sylveon is a threat as always. Mold breaker Excadrill is annoying af.
Edit, all the Replays I have :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1032173554 unrelevant replay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1032134523 jrdn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1030111892 lost against stresh's ho
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I’m surprised no one has mentioned Pangoro+No Retreat and Hydregion+Clangorous Soul.
With Power Trip, you get base 120 power.
It’s also possible to run Physical, Special, and Mixed on Hydregion. And once Home releases, Hydregion can have roost back, so it can boost Clangorous Soul safely.
With Power Trip, you get base 120 power.
It’s also possible to run Physical, Special, and Mixed on Hydregion. And once Home releases, Hydregion can have roost back, so it can boost Clangorous Soul safely.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Hello, I am here just to make a quick announcement regarding quickbans that I think no one is surprised to see coming:
Quickban #1: Dynamax
Similar to almost every other singles tier, the Dynamax mechanic has completely flipped the metagame on it's head and STABmons is no exception to this rule. Abusers such as Dragapult, Rotom-H, Kommo, and Gyarados become extremely potent with the doubling in bulk and the power + benefit of max moves. Defensive counterplay to these threats is limited and niche when considering the fact that defensive pokemon cannot abuse Dynamaxing as promisingly as the abundance of setup sweepers that can. With that being sad, the STABmons council has decided to implement the Dynamax clause effective immediately.
Quickban #2: Darminatan-Galarian
One of the best offensive wallbreakers in the tier when combined with Choice Band and Gorilla Tactics, Darmanitan-G lacks any true defensive counters in conjunction with amazing coverage. Oftentimes, many teams require to handle Darmanitan via offensive measures (either faster threats or priority in Extreme Speed), however Darmanitan can usually circumvent the former via utilizing a Choice Scarf set which is also extremely viable or priority of it's own in Ice Shard which does an incredible amount of damage despite the low BP. With all this in mind, Darmanitan restricts teambuilding too much and has been decided to been quickbanned in order to promote more flexible teambuilding.
I want to apologize for not announcing these votes sooner as my life was a bit hectic irl and never had the proper chance to announce them. The council is taking into account the playerbase's opinions and will address things more swiftly.
With that being said, expect more votes soon regarding other problematic issues such as Extreme Speed, Dragapult, and Dracovish.
Tagging The Immortal to implement. Thanks!
Quickban #1: Dynamax
Similar to almost every other singles tier, the Dynamax mechanic has completely flipped the metagame on it's head and STABmons is no exception to this rule. Abusers such as Dragapult, Rotom-H, Kommo, and Gyarados become extremely potent with the doubling in bulk and the power + benefit of max moves. Defensive counterplay to these threats is limited and niche when considering the fact that defensive pokemon cannot abuse Dynamaxing as promisingly as the abundance of setup sweepers that can. With that being sad, the STABmons council has decided to implement the Dynamax clause effective immediately.
Quickban #2: Darminatan-Galarian
One of the best offensive wallbreakers in the tier when combined with Choice Band and Gorilla Tactics, Darmanitan-G lacks any true defensive counters in conjunction with amazing coverage. Oftentimes, many teams require to handle Darmanitan via offensive measures (either faster threats or priority in Extreme Speed), however Darmanitan can usually circumvent the former via utilizing a Choice Scarf set which is also extremely viable or priority of it's own in Ice Shard which does an incredible amount of damage despite the low BP. With all this in mind, Darmanitan restricts teambuilding too much and has been decided to been quickbanned in order to promote more flexible teambuilding.
I want to apologize for not announcing these votes sooner as my life was a bit hectic irl and never had the proper chance to announce them. The council is taking into account the playerbase's opinions and will address things more swiftly.
With that being said, expect more votes soon regarding other problematic issues such as Extreme Speed, Dragapult, and Dracovish.
Tagging The Immortal to implement. Thanks!
With Dynamax, Moody, and Darmanitan gone I though I'd post a little preliminary viability ranking that a couple of us were working on.
Please note that this is not a finished viability ranking The meta is still in flux, new threats are still arising, and we just banned two incredibly oppressive things.
Feedback I've considered implementing is the raising of pretty much every espeeder. I like how they stack up against each other right now but compared to the other Pokemon I think there are arguments for at least some of them rising.
I'm sure there's stuff missing. It happens. I missed some really obvious stuff in my first draft.
This was originally built for the metagame which included dynamaxing and Darmanitan. I don't think them leaving significantly change viability in the way say, an Espeed ban would, but it may affect some mons on this list.
Within ranks everything is alphabetical and if it isn't it's cuz I'm bad not a viability comment.
thanks to In The Hills and Chazm (still unviable tho) for helping me with this
edit: shoutout me for forgetting dracovish even after hills reminded me
I'd say mid off the top of my head but could go high ig. It's worse here than OU thanks to some of its resists getting Strength Sap or other reliable recovery although the dance sets are nice. I'll respond to the other stuff when I get a chance.
Please note that this is not a finished viability ranking The meta is still in flux, new threats are still arising, and we just banned two incredibly oppressive things.
TOP
Darmanitan-Galar (rest in pieces you will be missed by me and probably nobody else borked af tho)
HIGH
Ditto
Dragapult
Ferrothorn
Obstagoon
Rotom-Wash
Sylveon
MIDDLE
Bewear
Corsola-Galar
Corviknight
Diggersby
Dracozolt
Excadrill
Gengar
Gyarados
Hippowdon
Indeedee
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Heat
LOW / NICHE
Araquanid
Barraskewda
Bronzong
Chandelure
Cinderace
Drednaw
Durant
Flareon
Gastrodon
Grimmsnarl
Hatterene
Hydreigon
Inteleon
Kommo-o
Mimikyu
Pelipper
Rotom-Mow
Toxapex
Toxtricity
UNVIABLE
chazm
I haven't seen but should be good so use them pls
Snorlax
Type: Null
Haxorus
Hawlucha
HIGH
MIDDLE
Indeedee
LOW / NICHE
ChandelureCinderace
Gastrodon
Rotom-MowToxapex
UNVIABLE
I haven't seen but should be good so use them pls
Feedback I've considered implementing is the raising of pretty much every espeeder. I like how they stack up against each other right now but compared to the other Pokemon I think there are arguments for at least some of them rising.
I'm sure there's stuff missing. It happens. I missed some really obvious stuff in my first draft.
This was originally built for the metagame which included dynamaxing and Darmanitan. I don't think them leaving significantly change viability in the way say, an Espeed ban would, but it may affect some mons on this list.
Within ranks everything is alphabetical and if it isn't it's cuz I'm bad not a viability comment.
thanks to In The Hills and Chazm (still unviable tho) for helping me with this
edit: shoutout me for forgetting dracovish even after hills reminded me
I'd say mid off the top of my head but could go high ig. It's worse here than OU thanks to some of its resists getting Strength Sap or other reliable recovery although the dance sets are nice. I'll respond to the other stuff when I get a chance.
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Thoughts on the preliminary WR:
Obstagoon High->Middle, Bewear UR -> Middle, Diggersby Middle -> Low, Snorlax UR-> Middle:,
Obstagoon is a pretty good user of Extrem Speed with its ability Gut but face competiton in this role with other Normal Type, mainly Bewear, Diggersby and Snorlax, each of them having a specificity. While Obstagoon have Guts end the Dark Type and so an acces to Sucker Pumch which allows it to smash Dragapult and others ghost type, Bewear's ability fluffy is extremely valuable, mainly in this Physicaly Oriented meta, and Fighting type is also very usefull with CC and No Retreat. Diggersby is a very good Espeed Band user and Stab Eq is always nice to have. Finally, Snorlax is the best BellySpeed user, even if it can't use anymore its Gmax to heal itself. I personnaly think that Diggersby is a bit less good than the others, because it's less bulky.
Hawlucha UR->High : Hawlucha is incredibly hard to wall with a seed set with Acrobatics No Retreat Drain Punch Taunt, and it helped me to reach #1 in the ladder. It can also be used with Mold Breaker to make mimikyu not a safe RK, considering that its speed is already pretty good whithout Unburden boost, and its STABs aren't well resisted by the Metagame. So overall Hawlucha is a very good pick in this meta, and the fact that Ditto is top tier also helps it. So I think that High is deserved.
Cinderace UR -> Low/Mid : Best V Create User, can destroy Tyranitar, can deal with hazards and have U-Turn. Not much more to say. My bad Cin is already in the VR
Chandelure: UR -> Low, Salazzle: UR -> Low: The 2 best users of Eruption in the tier, one with a great Speed Tier and the other one which destroy Mimikyu. They're both decent, but suffer from several weaknesses (mainly hazards) which make them for me Low Tier.
Tyranitar : UR -> Middle : As highlighted by Atha, Band Tyranitar has no SI. Even if Ttar has lost lots of interesting mooves, it stays a threat that shouldn't be underestimated.
Excadrill: Low -> High: I have no idea why Exca is Low Tier. If one of (if not the ) best offensive SR setter in the tier, mainly thanks to Mold Breaker. The only SI is Corviknght, which is not a Staple and can be easily played around. Moreover, Sand Rush in combination with Ttar can male Exca an excellent cleaner, even if it's easier to check. Exca has also acces to Bullet punch, which allows it not to be passive against faster threats like mimikyu or dragapult, for example.
Might add others later
Obstagoon High->Middle, Bewear UR -> Middle, Diggersby Middle -> Low, Snorlax UR-> Middle:,
Obstagoon is a pretty good user of Extrem Speed with its ability Gut but face competiton in this role with other Normal Type, mainly Bewear, Diggersby and Snorlax, each of them having a specificity. While Obstagoon have Guts end the Dark Type and so an acces to Sucker Pumch which allows it to smash Dragapult and others ghost type, Bewear's ability fluffy is extremely valuable, mainly in this Physicaly Oriented meta, and Fighting type is also very usefull with CC and No Retreat. Diggersby is a very good Espeed Band user and Stab Eq is always nice to have. Finally, Snorlax is the best BellySpeed user, even if it can't use anymore its Gmax to heal itself. I personnaly think that Diggersby is a bit less good than the others, because it's less bulky.
Hawlucha UR->High : Hawlucha is incredibly hard to wall with a seed set with Acrobatics No Retreat Drain Punch Taunt, and it helped me to reach #1 in the ladder. It can also be used with Mold Breaker to make mimikyu not a safe RK, considering that its speed is already pretty good whithout Unburden boost, and its STABs aren't well resisted by the Metagame. So overall Hawlucha is a very good pick in this meta, and the fact that Ditto is top tier also helps it. So I think that High is deserved.
Chandelure: UR -> Low, Salazzle: UR -> Low: The 2 best users of Eruption in the tier, one with a great Speed Tier and the other one which destroy Mimikyu. They're both decent, but suffer from several weaknesses (mainly hazards) which make them for me Low Tier.
Tyranitar : UR -> Middle : As highlighted by Atha, Band Tyranitar has no SI. Even if Ttar has lost lots of interesting mooves, it stays a threat that shouldn't be underestimated.
Excadrill: Low -> High: I have no idea why Exca is Low Tier. If one of (if not the ) best offensive SR setter in the tier, mainly thanks to Mold Breaker. The only SI is Corviknght, which is not a Staple and can be easily played around. Moreover, Sand Rush in combination with Ttar can male Exca an excellent cleaner, even if it's easier to check. Exca has also acces to Bullet punch, which allows it not to be passive against faster threats like mimikyu or dragapult, for example.
Might add others later
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Quick question.
I have making a Zweilous set since I noticed that it now has access to False Surrender.
Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- False Surrender
- Dragon Darts
- Dragon Dance
- Obstruct
With Hustle, Zweilous effectively has 152 Atk and with Eviolite, it has 72/114/114 bulk
Only problems being it's lack luster speed and typing being weak to Fairy (and since home isn't here, no Steel moves at all and only Belch for Poison moves).
What would be good teammates for Zweilous? Preferably the fairy killer.
I have making a Zweilous set since I noticed that it now has access to False Surrender.
Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- False Surrender
- Dragon Darts
- Dragon Dance
- Obstruct
With Hustle, Zweilous effectively has 152 Atk and with Eviolite, it has 72/114/114 bulk
Only problems being it's lack luster speed and typing being weak to Fairy (and since home isn't here, no Steel moves at all and only Belch for Poison moves).
What would be good teammates for Zweilous? Preferably the fairy killer.
Remember Victini and its extremely broken move? That move wasn't removed in Gen 8. We also have a good candidate for abusing V-Create: Cinderace.
Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze (Or Libero, when that's released)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt/Sucker Punch
- U-turn
While its coverage may appear lacking, it really isn't. The combination of V-Create, High Jump Kick, and Zen Headbutt is resisted by only 11 Pokemon, all but one of which were removed in Gen 8. The one that wasn't removed? Darmanitan-Zen. Which is currently unobtainable. Speaking of Darmanitan, in order for Darmanitan-Zen to be in the game, there needs to be Darmanitan. So when it's released...
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- U-turn
...It'll certainly be a threat. Also...
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- U-turn
...Did I mention that it can learn Icicle Crash? With that, it has the same insane coverage that Darmanitan-Galar has, but with Fire STAB. Luckily, it doesn't have Gorilla Tactics, so it probably won't be as broken, but it'll certainly be something to watch out for when (or if) it comes.
That isn't how Galar Pokemon formes work. Darmanitan can't get Ice-type moves (or psychic type ones) and Darmanitan-G can't get any ice, fire, psychic moves because The Zen formes are battle only forme changes, and galar formes are the same as alola formes in that there's no way to change Darmanitan into a Darmanitan-G out of battle or vice versa. So Darmanitan can only get Fire-type moves.
Remember Victini and its extremely broken move? That move wasn't removed in Gen 8. We also have a good candidate for abusing V-Create: Cinderace.
Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze (Or Libero, when that's released)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt/Sucker Punch
- U-turn
While its coverage may appear lacking, it really isn't. The combination of V-Create, High Jump Kick, and Zen Headbutt is resisted by only 11 Pokemon, all but one of which were removed in Gen 8. The one that wasn't removed? Darmanitan-Zen. Which is currently unobtainable. Speaking of Darmanitan, in order for Darmanitan-Zen to be in the game, there needs to be Darmanitan. So when it's released...
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- U-turn
...It'll certainly be a threat. Also...
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- U-turn
...Did I mention that it can learn Icicle Crash? With that, it has the same insane coverage that Darmanitan-Galar has, but with Fire STAB. Luckily, it doesn't have Gorilla Tactics, so it probably won't be as broken, but it'll certainly be something to watch out for when (or if) it comes.
Ok, it appears that this was an error in PS. I saw Ice moves in normal Darmanitan's moveset for some reason, so I thought that GF might have added ice moves to its movepool for some reason. I apologize for the error.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/#post-8286880
Sample Teams were updated! Reminder that this is only the initial few we selected but we are open for more submissions!
Sample Teams were updated! Reminder that this is only the initial few we selected but we are open for more submissions!
After playing the metagame for a couple weeks I've noticed a couple things that have been causing consistent problems with balance
Extreme Speed!
I have mixed feelings about Extreme Speed right now. I think the meta is clearly unbalanced. What I'm not sure of is whether Extreme Speed or Obstagoon is at the heart of the issue.
Extreme Speed is an incredible tool. We've seen what it can do generation after generation metagame after metagame. It's the best revenge killing tool, a powerful sweeping tool, and enables Pokemon to become a wallbreaking package through both its role condensing and its encouragement of maximum power. This generation we lost Landorus-Therian, Celesteela, and Slowbro-Mega along with Beak Blast while most abusers are either still here or easily replaceable and we, in fact, gained our newest and best abuser,DubwoolObstagoon, who I'll discuss in a moment. Every argument for the ban that existed last generation is still here, and the abusers have only gotten more powerful in comparison to the metagame overall.
However
In the meta as we play it right now, Obstagoon stands out as far and away the best abuser of this move. Because of its power level (basically as strong as Diggersby before Diggers' item boost), Speed tier, and above all its incredible typing which enables it to prey on the omnipresent Ghost types of the tier Obstagoon has cemented itself as a Pokemon that is nearly impossible to switch into, can sweep easily with one boost, has set variety, and fits easily on teams while providing valuable support. It's S rank for a reason and very much belongs there.
So the question I want to ask: Is Extreme Speed broken without Obstagoon? Which abusers break it?
Overall I think Extreme Speed is probably the issue but I think we shouldn't have this conversation without bringing up Obstagoon as well.
I don't particularly care whether goon is broken without Espeed, we can cross that bridge another day presuming we ban Espeed.
Dragapult has cemented itself as the primary choice for a huge number of roles, even this early in the metagame.
Answering Dragpult reliably is difficult for any team. Gonna do this with bullets instead of the text wall I had initially because it looks nicer and there's less fluff.
Double Iron Bash
This move is just as uncompetitive as it is in any other OM where it's freely available, if not moreso. It turns countering Excadrill into a hellish "can I avoid the ~50% flinch" game which neither player has any particular control over. I've seen people calling for the move to be left in until Jirachi releases but I think a move which turns any matchup with a slower Pokemon into a coinflip (at best a chance of ~25% chance to lose instantly; nothing lives the 3hko from +2 Moldy Excadrill).
This may not be the most broken thing in the metagame right now, but it's incredibly uncompetitive. I see no downside to banning it and I don't think we need to discuss it that much. There's no easy Prankster on defensive Pokemon here, and no simple workaround to avoid being flinched that you can run.
Let's just get rid of the cancer pls
Let me know if there's anything I should expand upon, make more concise, or include more meta examples / calcs / replays when I get myself together enough for them. I feel like I got a bit rambly here which I tend to do lol.
Extreme Speed!
I have mixed feelings about Extreme Speed right now. I think the meta is clearly unbalanced. What I'm not sure of is whether Extreme Speed or Obstagoon is at the heart of the issue.
Extreme Speed is an incredible tool. We've seen what it can do generation after generation metagame after metagame. It's the best revenge killing tool, a powerful sweeping tool, and enables Pokemon to become a wallbreaking package through both its role condensing and its encouragement of maximum power. This generation we lost Landorus-Therian, Celesteela, and Slowbro-Mega along with Beak Blast while most abusers are either still here or easily replaceable and we, in fact, gained our newest and best abuser,
However
In the meta as we play it right now, Obstagoon stands out as far and away the best abuser of this move. Because of its power level (basically as strong as Diggersby before Diggers' item boost), Speed tier, and above all its incredible typing which enables it to prey on the omnipresent Ghost types of the tier Obstagoon has cemented itself as a Pokemon that is nearly impossible to switch into, can sweep easily with one boost, has set variety, and fits easily on teams while providing valuable support. It's S rank for a reason and very much belongs there.
So the question I want to ask: Is Extreme Speed broken without Obstagoon? Which abusers break it?
Overall I think Extreme Speed is probably the issue but I think we shouldn't have this conversation without bringing up Obstagoon as well.
I don't particularly care whether goon is broken without Espeed, we can cross that bridge another day presuming we ban Espeed.
Dragapult has cemented itself as the primary choice for a huge number of roles, even this early in the metagame.
Answering Dragpult reliably is difficult for any team. Gonna do this with bullets instead of the text wall I had initially because it looks nicer and there's less fluff.
- Resists or is immune to many forms of priority, Extreme Speed being BY FAR the most important
- Outspeeds the unboosted tier besides a Ninjask and Accelgor, which are only semi-viable and only as leads.
- The above two points make revenge killing Dragapult difficult.
- Dual STABs have very good coverage.
- Can run either physical or special sets, which have largely different sets of walls, making playing against it a guessing game until the set is revealed.
- Has access to U-Turn to maintain momentum and get chip damage, which it uses very well due to its Speed forcing an absurd number of switches.
- Both STAB attacks have immunities
- Most frequently runs Choice items, which can leave it vulnerable
- The above two points combine to make Dragapult have a difficult time cleaning teams without using one of its less common sweeper sets. A Normal type + a Fairy type can frequently provide sufficient counterplay with minimal prediction.
- Attacking stats are fairly low. If faced with a bulky mon not weak to one of its STABs there is a high chance it will be walled. This is not an enormous problem as Dragapult is not primarily a wallbreaker, however it can upset momentum versus balanced teams.
Double Iron Bash
This move is just as uncompetitive as it is in any other OM where it's freely available, if not moreso. It turns countering Excadrill into a hellish "can I avoid the ~50% flinch" game which neither player has any particular control over. I've seen people calling for the move to be left in until Jirachi releases but I think a move which turns any matchup with a slower Pokemon into a coinflip (at best a chance of ~25% chance to lose instantly; nothing lives the 3hko from +2 Moldy Excadrill).
This may not be the most broken thing in the metagame right now, but it's incredibly uncompetitive. I see no downside to banning it and I don't think we need to discuss it that much. There's no easy Prankster on defensive Pokemon here, and no simple workaround to avoid being flinched that you can run.
Rotom: Mold Breaker EQ beats Heat and Wash (and Frost obv), Double Iron Bash flinches and KOs the rest (again including Frost obviously).
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Fan: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- approx. 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight: +2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 140-166 (35 - 41.6%) -- approx. 84.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Two flinches (26.01% chance) * 84.4% chance to be 3hko'd = ~22% chance of mon deleted turn three
This doesn't take into account:
Possibility of three flinches (13% chance)
Crit chance (you're hitting six times over these turns so ~22.5% chance for one or more crit if my math is right)
and most importantly...
what Corv does back
If Corviknight gets a chance to move it has to use that turn to either Roost, attack, or use Iron Defense. Unless Corv is Body Press its attacks are resisted and not doing much. Iron Defense is pretty bad, and leaves you vulnerable to more flinches because you haven't healed. Roost buys you more time but you haven't actually done anything to Excadrill except potentially cause some Life Orb damage. And note the calc above: no LO. Excadrill doesn't need Life Orb to 3hko Corviknight. It can even run Protective Pads for Rocky Helmet / Iron Barbs / King's Shield.
Ferrothorn:
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 120-142 (34 - 40.3%) -- approx. 34.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Ferrothorn can technically eat this pretty reliably from full health with Leftovers / no LO
a) any chip kills it
b) Ferrothorn can't stop Excadrill from just Swords Dancing again, because SD outpaces Strength Sap drops.
c) LO will just drop it
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Fan: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- approx. 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight: +2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 140-166 (35 - 41.6%) -- approx. 84.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Two flinches (26.01% chance) * 84.4% chance to be 3hko'd = ~22% chance of mon deleted turn three
This doesn't take into account:
Possibility of three flinches (13% chance)
Crit chance (you're hitting six times over these turns so ~22.5% chance for one or more crit if my math is right)
and most importantly...
what Corv does back
If Corviknight gets a chance to move it has to use that turn to either Roost, attack, or use Iron Defense. Unless Corv is Body Press its attacks are resisted and not doing much. Iron Defense is pretty bad, and leaves you vulnerable to more flinches because you haven't healed. Roost buys you more time but you haven't actually done anything to Excadrill except potentially cause some Life Orb damage. And note the calc above: no LO. Excadrill doesn't need Life Orb to 3hko Corviknight. It can even run Protective Pads for Rocky Helmet / Iron Barbs / King's Shield.
Ferrothorn:
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 120-142 (34 - 40.3%) -- approx. 34.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Ferrothorn can technically eat this pretty reliably from full health with Leftovers / no LO
a) any chip kills it
b) Ferrothorn can't stop Excadrill from just Swords Dancing again, because SD outpaces Strength Sap drops.
c) LO will just drop it
Let's just get rid of the cancer pls
Let me know if there's anything I should expand upon, make more concise, or include more meta examples / calcs / replays when I get myself together enough for them. I feel like I got a bit rambly here which I tend to do lol.
Sorry for the double post but nobody else gonna post :3
I thought I'd drop some sets because the thread doesn't have that many yet
Other mons I haven't seen much that deserve more use...
Dugtrio! With Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull, and Pursuit gone this is really the only trapper in the metagame that doesn't take a turn to set up. And it's good at it.
Hydreigon is a nice Nasty Plot user or scarfer. It's strong, has good coverage, and has good bulk for an offensive mon. I'm not a huge fan of its other sets (Clangorous Soul or Dragon Dance) but I've seen them.
tl;dr
here are the sets if u can't be bothered to read any of that
Tyranitar (Chople, Band)
Cinderace (Band)
Rhyperior (Band, SD)
Flareon (SD)
Hydreigon (Scarf, Nasty Plot)
Dugtrio (Sash, Band)
I thought I'd drop some sets because the thread doesn't have that many yet
Flareon @ Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots / A memory of your choice
Ability: Flash Fire / Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD OR 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Slack Off / Multi-Attack
Flareon is a capable Espeeder, wallbreaker, tank, and sweeper right now. It's not the best at any of those roles but it does do a lot with one teamslot. V-Create is absurdly powerful always, and Flareon makes good use of that with STAB and decent Attack (and occasionally an ability boost). Extreme Speed is the meta-warping move that it is, the best revenge killing tool and an obscenely good cleaner. It comes in on several notable defensive threats (Corviknight, Sylveon, Toxapex, Ferrothorn) and poses an immediate offensive threat to the opposing team.
When playing with Flareon you should only Swords Dance to break passive mons. It's too slow to sweep through teams most games I play with it, as Extreme Speed resists are mandatory and Flareon is slow and very physical frail even before you drop your defense with V-Create. Swords Dance can also be used against passive mons to catch offensive switchins and Espeed them... essentially only setup on bulky mons. You can abuse your nice special bulk and burn immunity against Pokemon like Toxapex to set up and nuke.
Multi Attack versus Slack Off comes down to coverage versus longevity. No single type will hit everything you'd want to, although I think ground comes closest (lol Solrock and Lunatone still resisting). 224 Speed Evs are for outspeeding Adamant Tyranitar, and are mostly useful if you run a Fighting Memory.
252+ Atk Flareon Multi-Attack (Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 532-628 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Flareon Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't particularly like running that though because
252+ Atk Tyranitar Accelerock vs. 32 HP / 4 Def Flareon: 222-264 (79.5 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
even non-Band Tyranitar does a TON to Flareon with Accelerock, which most of them carry. I'm willing to listen to other Speed spreads btw.
Another option is hitting 209 speed for 0 speed Rotom-A.
Slack Off versus Recover comes down to whether you have style or not. So use Slack Off.
I've tried running bulkier sets. I ran Rapid Spin once for instance. They don't really work because Flareon just isn't a wall, it doesn't have the stats. It pretty direly needs V-Create and Extreme Speed to be useful, and the remaining two slots don't give it a ton of flexibility.
Ability: Flash Fire / Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD OR 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Slack Off / Multi-Attack
Flareon is a capable Espeeder, wallbreaker, tank, and sweeper right now. It's not the best at any of those roles but it does do a lot with one teamslot. V-Create is absurdly powerful always, and Flareon makes good use of that with STAB and decent Attack (and occasionally an ability boost). Extreme Speed is the meta-warping move that it is, the best revenge killing tool and an obscenely good cleaner. It comes in on several notable defensive threats (Corviknight, Sylveon, Toxapex, Ferrothorn) and poses an immediate offensive threat to the opposing team.
When playing with Flareon you should only Swords Dance to break passive mons. It's too slow to sweep through teams most games I play with it, as Extreme Speed resists are mandatory and Flareon is slow and very physical frail even before you drop your defense with V-Create. Swords Dance can also be used against passive mons to catch offensive switchins and Espeed them... essentially only setup on bulky mons. You can abuse your nice special bulk and burn immunity against Pokemon like Toxapex to set up and nuke.
Multi Attack versus Slack Off comes down to coverage versus longevity. No single type will hit everything you'd want to, although I think ground comes closest (lol Solrock and Lunatone still resisting). 224 Speed Evs are for outspeeding Adamant Tyranitar, and are mostly useful if you run a Fighting Memory.
252+ Atk Flareon Multi-Attack (Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 532-628 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Flareon Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't particularly like running that though because
252+ Atk Tyranitar Accelerock vs. 32 HP / 4 Def Flareon: 222-264 (79.5 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
even non-Band Tyranitar does a TON to Flareon with Accelerock, which most of them carry. I'm willing to listen to other Speed spreads btw.
Another option is hitting 209 speed for 0 speed Rotom-A.
Slack Off versus Recover comes down to whether you have style or not. So use Slack Off.
I've tried running bulkier sets. I ran Rapid Spin once for instance. They don't really work because Flareon just isn't a wall, it doesn't have the stats. It pretty direly needs V-Create and Extreme Speed to be useful, and the remaining two slots don't give it a ton of flexibility.
Rhyperior @ Metronome / Weakness Policy
Ability: Solid Rock / Reckless
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Accelerock
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge / Head Smash
Rhyperior is a really cool mon! It hits really hard with any of its attacks and has killer dual STAB coverage. Solid Rock makes its weaknesses not as awful as they seem. Pokemon that like to switch into physical attackers, such as Bewear, risk setting off Weakness Policy and dying to Earthquake.
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 193-228 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- not a KO
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 328-387 (78 - 92.1%) -- not a KO
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 364-429 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to 1HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 151-178 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- not a KO
I chose a bunch of physical threats because it can, in general, SD to +2 against physical threats or simply tank a single hit and smack back. Its SpD is much sketchier of course but can't have everything. The Speed EVs creep Corviknight. If you're confident in your ability to outplay them and catch the Roost with an EQ this may be unnecessary.
Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Accelerock
- Spikes
Here's the Choice Band set. Band is a better revenge killer, and arguably a better overall set. Head Smash is a nuke
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhyperior Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 357-420 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 144-171 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Spikes allow you to get Hippowdon into range of an Earthquake 2hko if you can keep them up, along with wearing down everything on the opponents team. Other coverage tends to be unnecessary due to your STABs excellent neutral coverage and power.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Ability: Solid Rock / Reckless
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Accelerock
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge / Head Smash
Rhyperior is a really cool mon! It hits really hard with any of its attacks and has killer dual STAB coverage. Solid Rock makes its weaknesses not as awful as they seem. Pokemon that like to switch into physical attackers, such as Bewear, risk setting off Weakness Policy and dying to Earthquake.
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 193-228 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- not a KO
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 328-387 (78 - 92.1%) -- not a KO
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 364-429 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to 1HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 151-178 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- not a KO
I chose a bunch of physical threats because it can, in general, SD to +2 against physical threats or simply tank a single hit and smack back. Its SpD is much sketchier of course but can't have everything. The Speed EVs creep Corviknight. If you're confident in your ability to outplay them and catch the Roost with an EQ this may be unnecessary.
Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Accelerock
- Spikes
Here's the Choice Band set. Band is a better revenge killer, and arguably a better overall set. Head Smash is a nuke
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhyperior Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 357-420 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 144-171 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Spikes allow you to get Hippowdon into range of an Earthquake 2hko if you can keep them up, along with wearing down everything on the opponents team. Other coverage tends to be unnecessary due to your STABs excellent neutral coverage and power.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Head Smash / Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Rock Tomb / (don't run these im just joking cuz i dont like the options>) Rollout / Rock Throw
Despite the loss of pursuit I find Tyranitar still very good. This ChopleTar is the main utility set I've been using. It Speed creeps 0 speed Rotom-A, tanks Focus Blast from Gengar, and revenges both Dragapult and Gengar fairly reliably with Sucker Punch, all while setting Stealth Rock and being generally strong and tanky.
I don't like the Rock move options. I miss Diamond Storm. :/. I'm sure there's some EV spread that would make Rock Tomb ideal but idk what it is.
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 229-270 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 390-458 (148.8 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 326-386 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And here, just to slap it in the thread, is a standard BandTar.
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 204 Spe OR 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Accelerock
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Head Smash / Stone Edge
Not gonna say much here. It's BandTar. It does what BandTar does, except no Pursuit this generation.
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Head Smash / Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Rock Tomb / (don't run these im just joking cuz i dont like the options>) Rollout / Rock Throw
Despite the loss of pursuit I find Tyranitar still very good. This ChopleTar is the main utility set I've been using. It Speed creeps 0 speed Rotom-A, tanks Focus Blast from Gengar, and revenges both Dragapult and Gengar fairly reliably with Sucker Punch, all while setting Stealth Rock and being generally strong and tanky.
I don't like the Rock move options. I miss Diamond Storm. :/. I'm sure there's some EV spread that would make Rock Tomb ideal but idk what it is.
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 229-270 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 390-458 (148.8 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 326-386 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And here, just to slap it in the thread, is a standard BandTar.
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 204 Spe OR 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Accelerock
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Head Smash / Stone Edge
Not gonna say much here. It's BandTar. It does what BandTar does, except no Pursuit this generation.
Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
This thing is actually absurdly good. Fast, strong V-Create just melts opponents, even resists. It loves the lack of Pursuit, it loves the relative lack of Flash Fire mons (Heatran), and it has the movepool to back up what V-Create can't just get rid of. You don't even need to predict their Tyranitar / other Rock type because you can just pivot off of most of them.
It does hate Chandelure, but nobody is running that. It also hates Extreme Speed, and everybody is running that, but you should be heavily prepared for Espeed either way.
IMO there isn't really another set for this mon. You can squeeze Gunk Shot or Sucker Punch on if you want. Mostly you want to spam V-Create.
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
This thing is actually absurdly good. Fast, strong V-Create just melts opponents, even resists. It loves the lack of Pursuit, it loves the relative lack of Flash Fire mons (Heatran), and it has the movepool to back up what V-Create can't just get rid of. You don't even need to predict their Tyranitar / other Rock type because you can just pivot off of most of them.
It does hate Chandelure, but nobody is running that. It also hates Extreme Speed, and everybody is running that, but you should be heavily prepared for Espeed either way.
IMO there isn't really another set for this mon. You can squeeze Gunk Shot or Sucker Punch on if you want. Mostly you want to spam V-Create.
Other mons I haven't seen much that deserve more use...
Dugtrio! With Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull, and Pursuit gone this is really the only trapper in the metagame that doesn't take a turn to set up. And it's good at it. Hydreigon is a nice Nasty Plot user or scarfer. It's strong, has good coverage, and has good bulk for an offensive mon. I'm not a huge fan of its other sets (Clangorous Soul or Dragon Dance) but I've seen them.tl;dr
here are the sets if u can't be bothered to read any of that
Tyranitar (Chople, Band)
Cinderace (Band)
Rhyperior (Band, SD)
Flareon (SD)
Hydreigon (Scarf, Nasty Plot)
Dugtrio (Sash, Band)
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I got some sets...
Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Psychic Fangs
Hits with an extremely powerful Double Iron Bash, paired with Life Orb and Sheer Force, Boosted by Dragon Dance and STAB.
A similar set could be run with Rock Head and Head Smash.
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Trick/Energy Ball
Basically a better version of Scarflosion, with 3 immunities, Trick, 145 base special attack, etc.
Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
Huge Power Extreme Speed. Add some extra Swords Dance boosts, and this thing's ready to go and wreck stuff up.
Next off,
Barbaracle @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Accelerock
- Crabhammer
- Poison Jab/Cross Chop
Since Fishious Rend got banned, Barbaracle lost some of its glory. But it still has the capability to sweep teams with its Tough Claws boosted STABs.
Hydreigon @ Throat Spray
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Clangorous Soul
- Power Trip
- Dragon Darts
- Flash Cannon
You could run a similar set with substitute, although it would run short of coverage.
THAT'S ALL FOLKS!
Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Psychic Fangs
Hits with an extremely powerful Double Iron Bash, paired with Life Orb and Sheer Force, Boosted by Dragon Dance and STAB.
A similar set could be run with Rock Head and Head Smash.
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Trick/Energy Ball
Basically a better version of Scarflosion, with 3 immunities, Trick, 145 base special attack, etc.
Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
Huge Power Extreme Speed. Add some extra Swords Dance boosts, and this thing's ready to go and wreck stuff up.
Next off,
Barbaracle @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Accelerock
- Crabhammer
- Poison Jab/Cross Chop
Since Fishious Rend got banned, Barbaracle lost some of its glory. But it still has the capability to sweep teams with its Tough Claws boosted STABs.
Hydreigon @ Throat Spray
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Clangorous Soul
- Power Trip
- Dragon Darts
- Flash Cannon
You could run a similar set with substitute, although it would run short of coverage.
THAT'S ALL FOLKS!
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Quickban Update #3:
Ok so after analyzing the metagame post Dynamax and Darmanitan-G, Extreme Speed has been a point of contention that a lot of STABmons players have brought up and is not hard to see why. The move offers Normal-type sweepers, mainly being Obstagoon, Braviary, Snorlax, and Diggersby, the ability to completely sweep through offensive teams lacking Ghost-types such as Dragapult, Gengar, and Mimikyu. This combined with their access to Swords Dance and own respective STAB / coverage options to break through their respective checks has warped the meta extremely in their favor and makes it extremely hard to build especially with the meta already being filled to the brim with offensive threats besides the Espeed abusers. With this in mind, the STABmons council has voted to quickban Extreme Speed on any non-native learner in order to have a less centralized metagame before the STABmons open advances any further.
We had discussed Obstagoon potentially being the main source of the issue as it is obviously the main abuser of the move with the most efficiency of sweeping, however we ultimately decided that the move as a whole pushed way too many Normal physical breakers off the edge when combined with Swords Dance support, thus leading us to focus our attention to the move instead.
We will continue discussing other potential issues brought up such as Dragapult and Bolt Beak (especially when home drops) but for now this was the most pressing issue.
Tagging The Immortal or Kris thanks!
Ok so after analyzing the metagame post Dynamax and Darmanitan-G, Extreme Speed has been a point of contention that a lot of STABmons players have brought up and is not hard to see why. The move offers Normal-type sweepers, mainly being Obstagoon, Braviary, Snorlax, and Diggersby, the ability to completely sweep through offensive teams lacking Ghost-types such as Dragapult, Gengar, and Mimikyu. This combined with their access to Swords Dance and own respective STAB / coverage options to break through their respective checks has warped the meta extremely in their favor and makes it extremely hard to build especially with the meta already being filled to the brim with offensive threats besides the Espeed abusers. With this in mind, the STABmons council has voted to quickban Extreme Speed on any non-native learner in order to have a less centralized metagame before the STABmons open advances any further.
We had discussed Obstagoon potentially being the main source of the issue as it is obviously the main abuser of the move with the most efficiency of sweeping, however we ultimately decided that the move as a whole pushed way too many Normal physical breakers off the edge when combined with Swords Dance support, thus leading us to focus our attention to the move instead.
We will continue discussing other potential issues brought up such as Dragapult and Bolt Beak (especially when home drops) but for now this was the most pressing issue.
Tagging The Immortal or Kris thanks!
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Quickban Update #4: Home Edition
Following Pokemon Home Release, many new radical changes and additions have been added to the tier with the influx of new mythical and legendary pokemon. Most of the legendaries that have returned however pose a significant threat to the metagame with there above average stats and movepools that get further enhanced thanks to the metagame's mechanic. As a result the council has decided to quickban the following:
Mewtwo
Reshiram
Zekrom
Kyurem-W
Kyurem-B
Solgaleo
Lunala
Necrozma-DM
Necrozma-DW
Marshadow
The council will be addressing the fate of certain moves like Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak shortly, so stay tuned.
Tagging Kris or The Immortal thanks!
Edit: Also forgot to mention but Betathunder and W0rd will no longer be on the STABmons council, we thank them for their contributions.
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oh no whatever shall i do with kyurem white banned from stabmons all my teams are dead im quitting mons
Quickban Update #4: Home Edition
Following Pokemon Home Release, many new radical changes and additions have been added to the tier with the influx of new mythical and legendary pokemon. Most of the legendaries that have returned however pose a significant threat to the metagame with there above average stats and movepools that get further enhanced thanks to the metagame's mechanic. As a result the council has decided to quickban the following:
With these bans in mind, the metagame will still be shaken up quite a bit with the remaining additions, most notably being threats like Terrakion, Jirachi, Zeraora, Keldeo, and Cobalion all returning. Could moves such as Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak be pushed over the edge with more viable abusers? Are there new (or previously existing) threats that still deserve attention for a possible ban? Discuss! The council will be making a follow-up update after gauging community input.
Tagging Kris or The Immortal thanks!
Jirachi looks to be the best abuser of Double Iron Bash, although Cobalion also looks to be good with it. Jirachi just has Serene Grace, so Webs teams with Jirachi as the crux might become insane.
Melmetal itself also seems interesting with Bullet Punch. Can't do much else, maybe a gimmicky Autotomize set.
On the less interesting (but still interesting) side, Mew got Soft-Boiled and Roost back so it's more fun to use.
Quickban Update #4.5
After some discussion, the council has decided to quickban both Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak! Due to some communication errors between the council we didn’t include these bans in today’s earlier post, much apologies on our behalf.
That being said, the introduction of Home has definitely pushed these moves over the edge. While Double Iron Bash was already a huge discussion point over recent months due to Excadrill’s abuse of the move, Jirachi and Cobalion’s introduction makes it clear that Double Iron Bash is extremely uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame.
Bolt Beak’s ban was something that did require some more discussion, as there is only one “prominent” user in Zeraora, but the problem clearly stems from the move Bolt Beak itself. On top of that, there are plenty of fringe Bolt Beak users, such as Shift Gear Toxtricity, as well as Togedemaru and Pikachu that show that this 170BP move is the true issue.
Sorry again for this slight delay and miscommunication with the community, it was not our intention to keep these things unbanned any longer than they should be.
Tagging The Immortal
After some discussion, the council has decided to quickban both Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak! Due to some communication errors between the council we didn’t include these bans in today’s earlier post, much apologies on our behalf.
That being said, the introduction of Home has definitely pushed these moves over the edge. While Double Iron Bash was already a huge discussion point over recent months due to Excadrill’s abuse of the move, Jirachi and Cobalion’s introduction makes it clear that Double Iron Bash is extremely uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame.
Bolt Beak’s ban was something that did require some more discussion, as there is only one “prominent” user in Zeraora, but the problem clearly stems from the move Bolt Beak itself. On top of that, there are plenty of fringe Bolt Beak users, such as Shift Gear Toxtricity, as well as Togedemaru and Pikachu that show that this 170BP move is the true issue.
Sorry again for this slight delay and miscommunication with the community, it was not our intention to keep these things unbanned any longer than they should be.
Tagging The Immortal
Yay DIB ban :D
New mons!
Terrakion lost Diamond Storm this generation which sucks, but it also lost some of its better checks and counters. No more Landorus-Therian or Mega Slowbro means Terrak goes ham(x4) on basically the entire metagame not named Doublade or Aegislash.
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Rock STAB that's worse than Diamond Storm
Life Orb very definitely seems to be the item of choice thanks to this calc
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 352-417 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Band and Scarf are probably good as well
Terrakion @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Head Smash / Rock Blast / Rock Throw / Punk Rock
- Earthquake
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Blade: 186-220 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 154-182 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
My little pony will do exactly what it did last gen with 1) no Steam Eruption and 2) no competition from Ash-Greninja.
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Water Shuriken
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind / Air Slash
Pex will likely become more common to help deal with this thing, as not much else really does. Dragapult can check it well and eat any one hit but fails to OHKO back and is not a switchin.
I didn't mention Octolock. I don't think it's going to be the best set for any of these mons. Viable? Sure, probably. But in trying to craft sets with Octolock I have come to the conclusion that it's very demanding of moveslots. You want Octolock (of course), Protect or a Protect clone to stall for Octolock turns, and STAB moves. That leaves no room for recovery, Taunt, or Sub, which in turn leaves the Octolock user vulnerable a lot of the time. However it can be useful for doing stuff like taking a counter (say Pex for Keld) and turning it into a deadmon. But that tends to work best on passive switchins, which aren't very common or that great in STABmons.
Overall I think the new abusers of Octolock (aka The Swords of Justice) will be better off with other sets. Swords Dance for Terrakion, choice items for Keldeo (maybe CM), not being used for Virizion, and some weird Body Press set for Cobalion. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.
Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower
Melmetal set!
It's EV'd to outpace 0 speed Hippowdon so you can 2hko it with Double Iron Bash before they can Slack Off / EQ you. Thunder Punch gibs Corviknight, Gyarados, and some other Water types. Superpower... I think it usually KOs Rotom-A after SR and lefties but the calc is broken with regards to Superpower's percentages
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 158-187 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-125 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This set hits p damn hard. With your priority you can revenge kill some potent offensive threats from varying HPs
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 177-208 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 210-247 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 138-163 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 153-180 (47 - 55.3%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO
and smack around bulky mons
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 242-286 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Corv can Roost, but it comes out with chip damage, meaning it cannot counter repeatedly.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (you're EV'd to outspeed)
Melmetal is strong and bulky and has priority! Give it a try.
New mons!
Terrakion lost Diamond Storm this generation which sucks, but it also lost some of its better checks and counters. No more Landorus-Therian or Mega Slowbro means Terrak goes ham(x4) on basically the entire metagame not named Doublade or Aegislash.
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Rock STAB that's worse than Diamond Storm
Life Orb very definitely seems to be the item of choice thanks to this calc
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 352-417 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Band and Scarf are probably good as well
Terrakion @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Head Smash / Rock Blast / Rock Throw / Punk Rock
- Earthquake
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Blade: 186-220 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 154-182 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
My little pony will do exactly what it did last gen with 1) no Steam Eruption and 2) no competition from Ash-Greninja.
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Water Shuriken
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind / Air Slash
Pex will likely become more common to help deal with this thing, as not much else really does. Dragapult can check it well and eat any one hit but fails to OHKO back and is not a switchin.
I didn't mention Octolock. I don't think it's going to be the best set for any of these mons. Viable? Sure, probably. But in trying to craft sets with Octolock I have come to the conclusion that it's very demanding of moveslots. You want Octolock (of course), Protect or a Protect clone to stall for Octolock turns, and STAB moves. That leaves no room for recovery, Taunt, or Sub, which in turn leaves the Octolock user vulnerable a lot of the time. However it can be useful for doing stuff like taking a counter (say Pex for Keld) and turning it into a deadmon. But that tends to work best on passive switchins, which aren't very common or that great in STABmons.
Overall I think the new abusers of Octolock (aka The Swords of Justice) will be better off with other sets. Swords Dance for Terrakion, choice items for Keldeo (maybe CM), not being used for Virizion, and some weird Body Press set for Cobalion. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.
Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower
Melmetal set!
It's EV'd to outpace 0 speed Hippowdon so you can 2hko it with Double Iron Bash before they can Slack Off / EQ you. Thunder Punch gibs Corviknight, Gyarados, and some other Water types. Superpower... I think it usually KOs Rotom-A after SR and lefties but the calc is broken with regards to Superpower's percentages
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 158-187 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-125 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This set hits p damn hard. With your priority you can revenge kill some potent offensive threats from varying HPs
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 177-208 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 210-247 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 138-163 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 153-180 (47 - 55.3%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO
and smack around bulky mons
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 242-286 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Corv can Roost, but it comes out with chip damage, meaning it cannot counter repeatedly.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (you're EV'd to outspeed)
Melmetal is strong and bulky and has priority! Give it a try.
Sorry for the double post but...
Although Melmetal has been banned from Overused we are NOT banning it in STABmons at this time. The council has discussed Melmetal and we feel that there is more couterplay which can be explored in STABmons than exists in OU, and that we would like to see how Melmetal fits into the metagame for a bit longer.
As STABmons does not directly follow the Overused banlist OU bans do not apply by default.
Feel free to discuss whether or not you believe Melmetal should be suspected or banned in the thread
As STABmons does not directly follow the Overused banlist OU bans do not apply by default.
Feel free to discuss whether or not you believe Melmetal should be suspected or banned in the thread
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Melmetal’s main job is to do tons of physical damage while tanking tons of hits, not much else.
Melmetal in regular OU would always need to be burned, but after being burned, it would be pretty useless for anything other than soaking up hits.
Tricky part was burning it in the first place, which there weren’t that many options, and attempting to burn Melmetal would severally cripple your own since so little things had reliable recovery.
Only Max Physical Bulk Gastrodon could face up against Melmetal’s coverage reliably, try burning it, and could recover afterwards.
But in STABmons, you have so many more ways to burn Pokemon and reliable recovery is more abundant.
And hey, maybe in the future, Beak Blast and Sacred Fire may be released too.
Melmetal in regular OU would always need to be burned, but after being burned, it would be pretty useless for anything other than soaking up hits.
Tricky part was burning it in the first place, which there weren’t that many options, and attempting to burn Melmetal would severally cripple your own since so little things had reliable recovery.
Only Max Physical Bulk Gastrodon could face up against Melmetal’s coverage reliably, try burning it, and could recover afterwards.
But in STABmons, you have so many more ways to burn Pokemon and reliable recovery is more abundant.
And hey, maybe in the future, Beak Blast and Sacred Fire may be released too.
Some sets to start because why not
This set is actually pretty nice in the current metagame. Setting up can be a pain, but once you have set up you outpace everything unboosted, and since scarfers are pretty rare cuz everyone is using Dragapult instead (and most dont even outspeed Unburden'd Slurpuff anyway), you mostly only have to worry about priority. Slurpuff is best used late game when the opponents team is worn down a bit so Slurpuff can get the KOs it needs.
It doesn't particularly like the addition of Terrakion and Keldeo because they can both revenge it if it gets hit too hard setting up, and it doesn't exactly have world class bulk. Other issues include the existence of Corviknight and Strength Sap in general meaning that anything with the move it doesn't OHKO just sits there and wins.
I talk about this more down below. This set is broken. You play it by clicking V-Create ~90% of the time, keeping rocks off the field so you can pivot in over and over, and laugh as you 2hko bulky resists. Other coverage is an option I guess, but the only thing I can think of that you'd want is Superpower and that doesn't gain anything over V-Create + EQ. You don't really click your coverage other than U-Turn anyway.
Good support is excellent hazard removal, good pivoting, and Sticky Webs. The first one is pretty mandatory, the second you definitely want but can get away without, and the third is just a nice addition that Darmanitan abuses well. Rotom-W is annoying for this set but if you U-Turn on it and keep rocks up it can't switch in again. Rotom-H is also annoying but you can just Rock Slide it.
...
I've seen some other lit sets the past couple weeks but they're not mine and the people who used them might still want to use them in the open so I'll hold off on posting anything here.
And now meta commentary
Dragapult
I think the time has come to look at Dragapult. It is far too hard to switch into for a Pokemon with such absurdly high Speed. It is splashable on nearly every team, making not preparing for it an impossibility, yet preparing for it bends the structure of teams to a huge degree thanks to its flexibility, amazing dual STAB, and the fact that the very few things that actually outspeed it don't want to eat its hits.
Type: Null and SpD Grimmsnarl are the only two true counters I've seen come up with, neither of which is much good otherwise IMO (Grimmsnarl isn't bad but you'd definitely want another set). Tyranitar is a decent check but far too weak to U-Turn, especially from Band, as well as being vulnerable to being outplayed around Sucker Punch. Otherwise you usually have to run multiple checks or lose.
Pult finds a ton of opportunities to come in, whether as a revenge killer, being pivoted in, or abusing its good defensive typing (s/o
).
Overall: Pult warps the metagame way too much at the teambuilding level. Every team MUST be prepared for Dragapult, and to do so it must either run one of two very specific things or run multiple rather specific checks. I won't say much more because I know others feel more strongly about this than I, but I think it's time we started the process.
I will say that I don't think this is necessarily an easy ban. I think a suspect would be a better way forward than a QB for Dragapult in particular.
V-Create
V-Create is proving to be a problematic move. It is extremely spammable in this metagame with Toxapex being fairly uncommon, the lack of Pursuit making Tyranitar incapable of punishing the defense drops, and most of the other resists being too frail to reliably take the V-Creates or coverage of the two primary abusers.
Most of the primary Dragon-types can't switch into Darmanitan even once
Other Fire resists usually die to coverage
Much of the counterplay to Darmanitan comes from outspeeding it and guess what! Cinderace is absurdly fast, while still being very difficult to tank hits from.
Rotom-Wash stands out to me as the single thing keeping V-Create in check. With Strength Sap it is capable of surviving the 2hko from both Darmanitan and Cinderace (although respectively Band Rock Slide and High Jump Kick can give you issues if you predict wrong). Obligatory plug for OM Analyses project here and specifically the Rotom-W analysis here :D.
Any team without Rotom-W, Rain, or the ability to keep enough momentum to keep Darmanitan and Cinderace off the field are likely going to lose a mon or be heavily chipped every time they get brought in. Given that they aren't hard to bring in multiple times per match from my experience (pivoting, on Sylveon, on various mons they outspeed) it can be very difficult to keep your team intact with one on the opposing team.
Now the million dollar question... why V-Create and not Darmanitan + Cinderace?
While these two are by far the best and most broken abusers of the move, and Darmanitan's arrival is what I feel has pushed it over the edge, other Pokemon are also capable of abusing the move.
No Flareon because it kinda sucks with no Espeed, use Arcanine
Arcanine, Incineroar, and Centiskorch are all underexplored in the current metagame, largely because the big two physical Fires are much better and easier to use.
Centiskorch has seen use as a Webs setter. I used it on several teams in DIB meta because I'm a degenerate. Webs is still pretty good, and other good setters aren't that abundant. V-Create enables it to hit pretty hard for a utility Pokemon that runs Heavy Duty Boots, but I've found it to be non-teambreaking in general.
Incineroar's speed is low and its Attack is significantly worse than Darmanitan's, but it makes up for that to some degree with access to Sucker Punch. The ability to revenge kill Dragapult (and Gengar) is always nice, and U-Turn + Intimidate is a good combo even if its bulk is only passable. Dark is a good typing in this metagame, even with no Pursuit. Incin also gets a ton of coverage due to being GF's favorite cat wrestler thing, and can run any of EQ, CC, Thunder Punch, or even Outrage if you're desperate to hit Dragon-types. Obviously you can't hit everything at once, but it's obscene levels of coverage mean Pokemon like Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Tyranitar can't be overly confident switching into an unscouted Incineroar.
Arcanine I haven't seen, used, or theorymonned besides thinking it might be the next Flareon with different moves. Might be cool though. CC decimates Rock types and Hydreigon, Espeed is Espeed, STAB V-Create is STAB V-Create.
Overall: I find singlehandedly breaking two mons and pushing at least three more shitmons (sorry skorch) into potential usability is worthy of it being the move rather than the mons.
EDIT: After some discussion about V-Create In The Hills pointed out that Darmanitan still gets Pyro Ball, and still smashes through pretty much everything with it, without lowering Speed or defenses. The lack of recoil compared to Flare Blitz is a huge boon for Darmanitan and lets it spam the move without much fear.
So, what I now have to ask: Is Darmanitan the issue, or is V-Create? Is Cinderace problematic enough to constitute a problem on its own without Darmanitan? Would banning V-Create solve the issues Darmanitan is causing?
Overall I think this is still pretty early and I don't want to rush a ban because I haven't actually seen many people abusing the big red ape, and I think Cinderace is still more popular.
Please give us feedback :) The council wants to know what the community thinks
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Facade / Moonlight / Sticky Web
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Facade / Moonlight / Sticky Web
This set is actually pretty nice in the current metagame. Setting up can be a pain, but once you have set up you outpace everything unboosted, and since scarfers are pretty rare cuz everyone is using Dragapult instead (and most dont even outspeed Unburden'd Slurpuff anyway), you mostly only have to worry about priority. Slurpuff is best used late game when the opponents team is worn down a bit so Slurpuff can get the KOs it needs.
It doesn't particularly like the addition of Terrakion and Keldeo because they can both revenge it if it gets hit too hard setting up, and it doesn't exactly have world class bulk. Other issues include the existence of Corviknight and Strength Sap in general meaning that anything with the move it doesn't OHKO just sits there and wins.
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
I talk about this more down below. This set is broken. You play it by clicking V-Create ~90% of the time, keeping rocks off the field so you can pivot in over and over, and laugh as you 2hko bulky resists. Other coverage is an option I guess, but the only thing I can think of that you'd want is Superpower and that doesn't gain anything over V-Create + EQ. You don't really click your coverage other than U-Turn anyway.
Good support is excellent hazard removal, good pivoting, and Sticky Webs. The first one is pretty mandatory, the second you definitely want but can get away without, and the third is just a nice addition that Darmanitan abuses well. Rotom-W is annoying for this set but if you U-Turn on it and keep rocks up it can't switch in again. Rotom-H is also annoying but you can just Rock Slide it.
...
I've seen some other lit sets the past couple weeks but they're not mine and the people who used them might still want to use them in the open so I'll hold off on posting anything here.
And now meta commentary
DragapultI think the time has come to look at Dragapult. It is far too hard to switch into for a Pokemon with such absurdly high Speed. It is splashable on nearly every team, making not preparing for it an impossibility, yet preparing for it bends the structure of teams to a huge degree thanks to its flexibility, amazing dual STAB, and the fact that the very few things that actually outspeed it don't want to eat its hits.
Type: Null and SpD Grimmsnarl are the only two true counters I've seen come up with, neither of which is much good otherwise IMO (Grimmsnarl isn't bad but you'd definitely want another set). Tyranitar is a decent check but far too weak to U-Turn, especially from Band, as well as being vulnerable to being outplayed around Sucker Punch. Otherwise you usually have to run multiple checks or lose.
Pult finds a ton of opportunities to come in, whether as a revenge killer, being pivoted in, or abusing its good defensive typing (s/o
).Overall: Pult warps the metagame way too much at the teambuilding level. Every team MUST be prepared for Dragapult, and to do so it must either run one of two very specific things or run multiple rather specific checks. I won't say much more because I know others feel more strongly about this than I, but I think it's time we started the process.
I don't necessarily still agree with all of this. I know that while I still usually run Choice Dragapult, other people have begun to migrate to other sets such as Dragon Dance in addition. This makes relying on Choice lock to check Dragapult not an option. Also Espeed immunity isn't really that relevant any more :X Sucker Punch is, in my experience, the most common priority. This is largely because Dragapult is so common, but also because we have good Dark types like Obstagoon, who only partially take their viability from Dragapult's dominance. Either way it hurts Pult to some degree.
Sylveon is certainly one of the best checks to Dragapult, and a counter to Specs (not with that spread though, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery), but it is, by definition, not a counter to every set, as you yourself showed with your Band calc. I certainly did not forget Sylveon's existence, but I don't believe it's enough to keep Dragapult from being broken.
I will say that I don't think this is necessarily an easy ban. I think a suspect would be a better way forward than a QB for Dragapult in particular.
V-CreateV-Create is proving to be a problematic move. It is extremely spammable in this metagame with Toxapex being fairly uncommon, the lack of Pursuit making Tyranitar incapable of punishing the defense drops, and most of the other resists being too frail to reliably take the V-Creates or coverage of the two primary abusers.
Most of the primary Dragon-types can't switch into Darmanitan even once
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 294-347 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-299 (78.1 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 264-312 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 192-226 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
note that these are all Jolly: Adamant is absolutely an option and confirms many of these KOs that are chances or require rocks now.
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-299 (78.1 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 264-312 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 192-226 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
note that these are all Jolly: Adamant is absolutely an option and confirms many of these KOs that are chances or require rocks now.
Other Fire resists usually die to coverage
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 374-442 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 279-328 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (oh no u need Adamant... or just U-Turn on it once)
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 209-246 (51.7 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 279-328 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (oh no u need Adamant... or just U-Turn on it once)
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 209-246 (51.7 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Much of the counterplay to Darmanitan comes from outspeeding it and guess what! Cinderace is absurdly fast, while still being very difficult to tank hits from.
Rotom-Wash stands out to me as the single thing keeping V-Create in check. With Strength Sap it is capable of surviving the 2hko from both Darmanitan and Cinderace (although respectively Band Rock Slide and High Jump Kick can give you issues if you predict wrong). Obligatory plug for OM Analyses project here and specifically the Rotom-W analysis here :D.
Any team without Rotom-W, Rain, or the ability to keep enough momentum to keep Darmanitan and Cinderace off the field are likely going to lose a mon or be heavily chipped every time they get brought in. Given that they aren't hard to bring in multiple times per match from my experience (pivoting, on Sylveon, on various mons they outspeed) it can be very difficult to keep your team intact with one on the opposing team.
Now the million dollar question... why V-Create and not Darmanitan + Cinderace?
While these two are by far the best and most broken abusers of the move, and Darmanitan's arrival is what I feel has pushed it over the edge, other Pokemon are also capable of abusing the move.
No Flareon because it kinda sucks with no Espeed, use Arcanine
Arcanine, Incineroar, and Centiskorch are all underexplored in the current metagame, largely because the big two physical Fires are much better and easier to use.
Centiskorch has seen use as a Webs setter. I used it on several teams in DIB meta because I'm a degenerate. Webs is still pretty good, and other good setters aren't that abundant. V-Create enables it to hit pretty hard for a utility Pokemon that runs Heavy Duty Boots, but I've found it to be non-teambreaking in general.
Incineroar's speed is low and its Attack is significantly worse than Darmanitan's, but it makes up for that to some degree with access to Sucker Punch. The ability to revenge kill Dragapult (and Gengar) is always nice, and U-Turn + Intimidate is a good combo even if its bulk is only passable. Dark is a good typing in this metagame, even with no Pursuit. Incin also gets a ton of coverage due to being GF's favorite cat wrestler thing, and can run any of EQ, CC, Thunder Punch, or even Outrage if you're desperate to hit Dragon-types. Obviously you can't hit everything at once, but it's obscene levels of coverage mean Pokemon like Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Tyranitar can't be overly confident switching into an unscouted Incineroar.
Arcanine I haven't seen, used, or theorymonned besides thinking it might be the next Flareon with different moves. Might be cool though. CC decimates Rock types and Hydreigon, Espeed is Espeed, STAB V-Create is STAB V-Create.
Overall: I find singlehandedly breaking two mons and pushing at least three more shitmons (sorry skorch) into potential usability is worthy of it being the move rather than the mons.
EDIT: After some discussion about V-Create In The Hills pointed out that Darmanitan still gets Pyro Ball, and still smashes through pretty much everything with it, without lowering Speed or defenses. The lack of recoil compared to Flare Blitz is a huge boon for Darmanitan and lets it spam the move without much fear.
I had more but then i clicked one of the links at the top of my browser and lost them. C'est la vie.
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 280-330 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Rotom-Wash: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. Bulletproof Kommo-o: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 182-215 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 280-330 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Rotom-Wash: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. Bulletproof Kommo-o: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 182-215 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So, what I now have to ask: Is Darmanitan the issue, or is V-Create? Is Cinderace problematic enough to constitute a problem on its own without Darmanitan? Would banning V-Create solve the issues Darmanitan is causing?
Overall I think this is still pretty early and I don't want to rush a ban because I haven't actually seen many people abusing the big red ape, and I think Cinderace is still more popular.
Please give us feedback :) The council wants to know what the community thinks
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I think you forgot its primary check, which is full def Sylveon. It can tank any move and ohko back. Steel Wing is pretty bad. It's 2hkoed by banded Spectral Thief, but bearly (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ), so you're able to pivot around quite easily. I think Dragapult isn't too unhealthy fo the metagame. V-Create is a far more concerning problem.
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam / Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
or
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 21 Spe
- Moongeist Beam / Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
I once tried this and it seems decent, i guess... The first set has speed investment to outspeed Corviknight in order to avoid getting PP Stalled by Roost + Pressure as much as possible. If its not your problem, then used the second spread, which allow Aegislash to take a hit in its Shield forme while outspeeding Hippowdon. The Defense investments also always prevents Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball or Anchor Shot from breaking its Sub in its Blade Forme.
Going to dump the teams I used in open.
Used in R1:G1
Used in R1:G2 Used in R2:G1
Used in R2:G2
Used in R2:G3