STAB STABmons [Mamoswine yOINKED]

Betathunder

alphalightning
V-Create has been banned from STABmons!

With the ban of V-Create, what threats do you think will rise up in the meta? Will Fire-types like Marowak-Alola and Cinderace still be dominant? Will Toxapex continue its oppressive reign? Or will something else like Magearna, which benefits directly from V-Create's ban, become the new Pokemon on the block? Stay tuned to find out and feel free to discuss!
I can finally ladder again
 
V-Create has been banned from STABmons!

With the ban of V-Create, what threats do you think will rise up in the meta? Will Fire-types like Marowak-Alola and Cinderace still be dominant? Will Toxapex continue its oppressive reign? Or will something else like Magearna, which benefits directly from V-Create's ban, become the new Pokemon on the block? Stay tuned to find out and feel free to discuss!
Can we free darmanitan now
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
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What's next?

With V-Create banned (by a huge majority) we'll hopefully be able to go 2 turns without Marowak-Alola getting a KO. So the question now is: where do we go from here?

Our first step is to do absolutely nothing for a little while. Let the metagame settle, figure out what's good, better, worse post-V-Create.

After that we plan on developing STABmons' outdated resources (with help from tour winner Alternatif :]). We hope to update the sample teams and the viability rankings. Our analysis project has also reopened, and we may work on getting a setpedia out... or maybe we'll wait until DLC2 drops.

On the radar...
There are still potentially unhealthy aspects of our metagame to deal with. Here are some things that have been mentioned by various community members as stuff we should keep our eyes on.

:blobpex:
Toxapex became the number one new concern as the suspect wrapped up. Its access to the new move Flip Turn turned an already excellent pivot into the perfect momentum gain. Toxapex's ability to Flip Turn on almost anything without worries very slowly to bring in insane wallbreakers provides Pex teams with an incredible number of opportunities to sweep or smash. Thanks to Regenerator and Pex's bountiful bulk it barely even needs to Recover.

However we just banned V-Create, which will both reduce the number of Pokémon in the metagame Pex can come in on and make one of its best partners and beneficiaries, Marowak-Alola, far less common.

Pex fits the definition of broken as laid out in the tiering guidelines as it "almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage."

:magearna:
Magearna has had a major issue recently: Lightningrod Marowak-Alola, its best counter, and something you really don't want to give free switchins to, was everywhere. Now, with V-Create banned, this will likely become less if an issue. Everything Magearna did in OU it can do in STABmons, plus a bit more. The main things holding it back from being broken are Shore Up giving defensive Grounds + Marowak-Alola more longevity and Chansey having more utility moves to stop it setting up, notably phazing. This will be a more prominent issue if Toxapex goes.

892MS.png

Urshifu-Single-Strike has been on our radar for awhile. It's still incredibly difficult to switch into Band, a devastating late-game sweeper with No Retreat, and has good physical bulk and typing for tanking common priority. Recently it has proven a rather secondary choice to Marowak-Alola, and as they both didn't gel very well on the same team given that they provided very similar support, Urshifu was somewhat difficult to build around without it feeling outclassed by the broken boney boi.
Will this change? Will Urshifu become the meta's wallbreaker of choice? Let's see!
 
Hatterene (F) @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 128 Def / 252 SpA / 128 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Terrain
- Moonblast
- Expanding Force
- Mystical Fire

Hatterene is great because now you can have a pokemon to prevent both entry hazards AND priority moves, great for Pokemon with Shell Smash/Focus Sash
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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Hey everybody! :psyglad:

The STABmons metagame has had some time to settle since the restriction of V-Create. So In order to prevent a coup by the French while we still have our eye on Toxapex, it's time for us to move onto...
After that we plan on developing STABmons' outdated resources (with help from tour winner Alternatif :]). We hope to update the sample teams and the viability rankings. Our analysis project has also reopened, and we may work on getting a setpedia out... or maybe we'll wait until DLC2 drops.
this stage!

Our viability ranking is super outdated, and is our first priority. We are going to be developing our new viability ranking in the Resource Discussion channel of our metagame Discord, so check it out!

We also hope to get new sample teams up! Our current ones are... old to say the least. Please submit any effective, easy to use teams through this form.

Please check out our analyses project here! We do not have a significant number of analyses written up for the site so you can be a huge help getting up important Pokemon.

The setpedia I think will likely not happen because it's basically just a lamer more condensed version of the analyses. After DLC2 we will see if the resource would be helpful enough to warrant the effort of putting it together.
:toxapex:
I wrote about this Pokemon before. It's incredible. Maybe broken. On nearly every team and deserves it. I'm not going to spend much time on it here because it's been covered before and will be again.

:obstagoon:
Obstagoon has been re-emerging as one of the top wallbreakers in the metagame. Not that it ever wasn't great, but now with competition from V-Create users gone it's back in the spotlight.

:marowak-alola:
Thought you'd seen the last of this boney boi? Nope. Fire Lash and Pyro Ball sets are still great, and Poltergeist hits super duper hard. I still find it very hard to reliably find switchins, although it's significantly more fun to try to play around now that it's not "click one move and watch things die" the mon.

:tyranitar:
Tyranitar has proven extremely useful as a defensive Pokemon recently. It counters the vast majority of Marowak-Alola and Obstagoon sets while providing you with one of the bulkiest special walls around. It gives you rocks and many other utility options, although you will have trouble fitting more than one on a fat set without dropping a STAB.

:rillaboom:
This Pokemon is probably the most threatening sweeper in the metagame right now. Every team should be prepared to deal with it. It loves the lack of Fire types and can easily overcome stuff like Ferrothorn which people try to use to check it.

:ss/toxicroak:
Wait what?
Toxicroak @ Black Sludge / Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot / Sucker Punch

Toxicroak is oddly positioned in the metagame right now in that its typing and ability combo. It is immune to Toxapex's Flip Turn, resists its Knock Off, can Swords Dance in front of it and proceed to break many common cores pretty easily. It beats Tyranitar, Sylveon, Ferrothorn, Blissey (well duh), while also being able to tank a single hit Urshifu and OHKO back.

The main reason to choose Toxicroak over something like Obstagoon is its ability to completely stop Pex's pivoting antics, which are super super common.
:urshifu:252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak on a critical hit: 207-245 (67.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 338-402 (99.1 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
No issues other than taking a lot of damage. Jolly Croak outspeeds Adamant Urshifu.

:ferrothorn:Ferrothorn+2 252 Atk Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 404-476 (114.7 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Anchor Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 117-138 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If you SD on the switch you KO them. Unless they are Cotton Guard or Curse they cannot hope to prevent you setting up in front of them, even with a Chople Berry or similar.

:toxapex:0 Atk Toxapex Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 34-40 (11 - 13%) -- possible 8HKO
0 Atk Toxapex Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 22-27 (7.1 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+6 252 Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 402-474 (132.2 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252 Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I think calc's percentages are messed up? this was the last calc I did on a different day than everything else so :blobshrug: )
If they stay in... yeah. You win.

:sylveon:+2 252 Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 638-752 (161.9 - 190.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 279-328 (90.8 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Sylveon can both paralyze you and simply deal upwards of 90% of your health in damage. Do not stay in on Sylveon other than to KO it and do not switch in on it, but you outspeed and OHKO at +2. This is unlikely to come into play much because Sylveon is both not a physical wall and weak to Poison so it's a TERRIBLE switchin for Toxicroak, and is just included to show Croak breaking defensive cores.

:tyranitar: 252 Atk Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 624-736 (154.4 - 182.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 63-75 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage
Toxicroak is a solid counter for defensive (read: any set not running Earthquake) Tyranitar, although it is vulnerable to being chipped, especially if you run Close Combat over Drain Punch.

:blissey: 252 Atk Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 618-728 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Honestly that's kinda wimpy... Blissey can paralyze you if you try to set up in front of it, but why would it stay in against a physical Fighting type? Same boat as Sylveon, I'm just including to show Croak breaking defensive cores.

:magearna: +2 252 Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Specially Defensive Magearna dies to +2 Earthquake. Not a switchin.

What's the downside? Toxicroak's typing and ability may be super useful, but its stats suck. It misses KOs or needs chip to achieve them, its bulk is mediocre, and its pretty slow.

:slowbro::hippowdon::weezing-galar::corviknight::mudsdale::skarmory:
Any of the above mons are easy switchins if your opponent brings them, and of course there are more. I'm going to admit: I haven't used Toxicroak for more than a game or two. It's not great. But it's fun that it's usable in the metagame right now, even if I don't think it is truly viable or has a place on the viability rankings.

ALSO

Toxicroak relies on Earthquake to beat several of the Pokemon it wants to. Without Earthquake there's not really any point to running it. Toxapex won't stay in to be 2HKO'd. This means dropping one of either your dual STAB moves (Gunk Shot in practice) or Sucker Punch. This means you're either much easier to switch into and pressure or do nothing against the majority of faster Pokemon, which as I mentioned is a significant portion of the tier.
 
I want to remind everyone that Scizor is super underrated in STABmons:

  • First thing: Sticky Web is not banned/restricted! Having a webs setter that is capable of doing other things is very valuable; also let's be honest: talk about a spicy lure.

  • Speaking of lures: Powder*. Yes, the move "Powder". Not Sleep Powder or Poison Powder or anything else. Great tech for Scizor that completely negates threats from fire types. The fact that it also deals damage helps to make sure that you're not just having a fancy version of protect.**

  • Technician Gear Grind / Pin Missile. Corviknight? No such thing.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 242-288 (60.6 - 72.1%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Swords Dance outpaces Bulk Up sets if they try to set up, and if they decide to switch out, you're either getting another boost or absolutely deleting anything on the receiving end.

Here's Pex:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 188-220 (61.8 - 72.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I want to remind you that all of these are being resisted by some of the best walls in the entire history of the franchise. If you invest 172 EVs into speed, you can begin threatening even the Rotom forms, who absolutely get obliterated by Scizor. Even HP-invested Rotom-H is OHKO'd by Superpower, Pin Missile, Knock Off (which is a 62.5% roll, and even if they survive, they're at best a sac mon down the line, not to mention they can't switch in again, even if they ran boots.

I'd like to include this calc for posterity:​
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 460-540 (91.4 - 107.3%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO​

Did I mention that this thing is the king of "guess my set"? It's like a lure but they don't even have a guess on what set it's "supposed" to be. You can run BP, U-turn, Roost, Anchor Shot, Q U I V E R D A N C E S C I Z O R, and just about anything you can imagine. You can even run banded sets!

Drampa, if I don't see Scizor as S+++ tier on the VR the next update, I think there should be a coup by the French like you've never seen.

*Edit: It seems like Powder has questionable availability in gen 8. Some sources say that it's obtainable through transfer, but the teambuilder (as shown by DrPumpkinz) won't allow it. Regardless, I don't feel like it's really the crux of what I'm saying here. In all honesty, 4MSS has a huge presence here.
**Edit 2: Powder is not really usable in Gen 8 (at least currently). Hopefully we'll see it return maybe after DLC2 (if such a timeline as "DLC3" exists)?
 
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Well something's fucked, because the team validator says otherwise.

View attachment 278622

(Using Ribombee only has the "does not exist in Gen 8" message)
That's definitely strange. If it's available in gen 7 and Ribombees are transferable, then I see no reason why it couldn't transfer with the move itself. Something's definitely broken somewhere in the process.

If that's wrong, I do apologize! Regardless, it'd definitely be a niche/meme pick for a really tough case of 4MSS here, but I thought it was worth mentioning. I don't feel like its availability is going to make or break Scizor on its own.
 
This is not an error, despite Powder being legitimately transferable and having a proper flavor text it is not transferable for whatever obscure reason.
I'm not sure I understand what this entails. If you could help clarify for me, I'll be sure to update my post (and learn something new)! Is it actually possible to transfer a Ribombee from Gen 7 to Gen 8? Is it possible to transfer one with Powder from Gen 7 to Gen 8?
 
I'm not sure I understand what this entails. If you could help clarify for me, I'll be sure to update my post (and learn something new)! Is it actually possible to transfer a Ribombee from Gen 7 to Gen 8? Is it possible to transfer one with Powder from Gen 7 to Gen 8?
Yes but it won't be able to use Powder in battle.
 

In The Hills

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Well with Crown Tundra DLC being confirmed for late October, this is probably one of the last posts I'll be making regarding the DLC1 metagame. Was a really fun meta, hope everyone else enjoyed it and will still have fun with it up until DLC2.
:clefable::rillaboom::rotom-heat::slowking::corviknight::urshifu:
This is a team I decided to build to showcase Clefable- a Pokemon that's incredibly overshadowed by Sylveon, despite the two Pokemon performing different roles. I decided to go with the Trick Sticky Barb set with Stealth Rocks, because this set can dismantle Clefable's switchins like Toxapex, Rotom-Heat, Corviknight etc quite well and having control over the opposing team's items is very nice to have in battle. Having a Fairy-type Stealth Rock setter also helped me get out of the rut I've been in with DLC1 that felt like the only good options for Stealth Rocks were Ferrothorn or a Ground-type Pokemon. Clefable can be really annoying for opposing teams to handle, and I highly recommend people try this set out.

Anyways, onto the team itself. I knew I wanted to pair Clefable with one of my favorite Pokemon in the current meta- Assault Vest Slowking. I think the two cover each other's checks pretty well, with Slowking covering Rotom-Heat and Toxapex, while Clefable handles Urshifu. I decided to go with a Fire-type Pokemon next to cover the weakness to Ferrothorn, and opted for Rotom-Heat, as I think it forms a nice pivoting core with Slowking. Next I decided to finish off the FWG core and added Rillaboom, a nice speed control option that hits insanely hard. I went with the SD Sap set because I think that set is a really great breaker that also helps against offensive threats like Zeraora well. For the last two Pokemon, I knew I needed Defog or Rapid Spin, so I decided to opt for Corviknight on this team because it helps with the incredibly poor Obstagoon matchup. Corviknight is something I've struggled to find use for in the current meta, but it fits on this team perfectly. For the last slot I went with the best breaker in the meta- Choice Band Urshifu, which can break through almost the entire meta on its own. Overall this team has worked pretty well for me and I haven't run into many issues at all. Sylveon can look like a tough matchup on paper due to me not having anything that directly threatens it outside of Rotom-Heat's Toxic but in practice it's been pretty easy to play around with Slowking's Future Sights and pivoting.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1194254082 Not the best replay due to both of us playing poorly but the only one that saved apparently, and even though I let Clefable get its Sticky Barb Knocked Off, this replay showcases how well it can work and in this game it still managed to disrupt drampa's team by removing Tyranitar's Leftovers and Toxapex's Rocky Helmet, which the latter allowed Clefable to later kill Cinderace.

Anyways that's all really, just wanted to highlight a cool set that I've been using recently and a team to go along with it. Really excited for what DLC2 is going to bring, and I'll probably post more on that at a later date.
 
Some moves, most notably Hidden Power and Pursuit, were cut from the game by making them unselectable in battle. Powder was one of those moves.
Interesting. So they will show up in battle, but they just won't register a press whilst highlighted?

Well with Crown Tundra DLC being confirmed for late October, this is probably one of the last posts I'll be making regarding the DLC1 metagame. Was a really fun meta, hope everyone else enjoyed it and will still have fun with it up until DLC2.
:clefable::rillaboom::rotom-heat::slowking::corviknight::urshifu:
This is a team I decided to build to showcase Clefable- a Pokemon that's incredibly overshadowed by Sylveon, despite the two Pokemon performing different roles. I decided to go with the Trick Sticky Barb set with Stealth Rocks, because this set can dismantle Clefable's switchins like Toxapex, Rotom-Heat, Corviknight etc quite well and having control over the opposing team's items is very nice to have in battle. Having a Fairy-type Stealth Rock setter also helped me get out of the rut I've been in with DLC1 that felt like the only good options for Stealth Rocks were Ferrothorn or a Ground-type Pokemon. Clefable can be really annoying for opposing teams to handle, and I highly recommend people try this set out.

Anyways, onto the team itself. I knew I wanted to pair Clefable with one of my favorite Pokemon in the current meta- Assault Vest Slowking. I think the two cover each other's checks pretty well, with Slowking covering Rotom-Heat and Toxapex, while Clefable handles Urshifu. I decided to go with a Fire-type Pokemon next to cover the weakness to Ferrothorn, and opted for Rotom-Heat, as I think it forms a nice pivoting core with Slowking. Next I decided to finish off the FWG core and added Rillaboom, a nice speed control option that hits insanely hard. I went with the SD Sap set because I think that set is a really great breaker that also helps against offensive threats like Zeraora well. For the last two Pokemon, I knew I needed Defog or Rapid Spin, so I decided to opt for Corviknight on this team because it helps with the incredibly poor Obstagoon matchup. Corviknight is something I've struggled to find use for in the current meta, but it fits on this team perfectly. For the last slot I went with the best breaker in the meta- Choice Band Urshifu, which can break through almost the entire meta on its own. Overall this team has worked pretty well for me and I haven't run into many issues at all. Sylveon can look like a tough matchup on paper due to me not having anything that directly threatens it outside of Rotom-Heat's Toxic but in practice it's been pretty easy to play around with Slowking's Future Sights and pivoting.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1194254082 Not the best replay due to both of us playing poorly but the only one that saved apparently, and even though I let Clefable get its Sticky Barb Knocked Off, this replay showcases how well it can work and in this game it still managed to disrupt drampa's team by removing Tyranitar's Leftovers and Toxapex's Rocky Helmet, which the latter allowed Clefable to later kill Cinderace.

Anyways that's all really, just wanted to highlight a cool set that I've been using recently and a team to go along with it. Really excited for what DLC2 is going to bring, and I'll probably post more on that at a later date.
I gotta say, this is a great team and I love the usage of barb!

My immediate question is: why Slowking over Pex? Future Sight sounds like a fun addition, but does it really outweigh the benefits that come with Pex being, well, Pex?

I really like your FWG core, but do you feel it's "too balanced" in terms of the roles of each mon? From what I understand, FWG cores tend to either be three offensive mons or three defensive mons, but it feels like Rilla is offensive, Slowking is (primarily) defensive, and Rotom is pretty heavy in the defense column. I'm not saying it's a bad composition by any means, but I guess I'm asking: what helped you arrive at this combination of sets?
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
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With the latest announcement giving us a date for the Crown Tundra DLC that is a bit sooner than we were expecting the council has modified its plans a little.

First: We have updated the sample teams on page one. Three teams, one from Stresh, one from Hills, one from me (sorry Gman I wanted to include yours but it didn't have any Pokemon :blobnom: :blobuwu:). These teams are much more recent and relevant to the current metagame than the previous teams, and will stay that way even once the DLC drops. We will try to keep the samples a little more up to date during the DLC2 metagame, as we don't have any known huge changes coming that are out of our control after that.

Second: We have decided to hold off on certain other resource updates that would take considerable time and effort only to become largely irrelevant 19 days from this post. Namely, we're holding off on the viability rankings. We will still be creating a Speed tier resource, as the information on that will only become incomplete with the DLC, not actively wrong, and it's easier to update than to create from scratch.

Third: It is now less than three weeks until DLC2 drops, and we have a decent amount of information officially released or leaked. We are going to open up speculation in this thread. All the relevant information we have access to will go in the hide tag immediately below.
:expandingbrain:
Calyrex
Type: Psychic / Grass
Ability: Unnerve

? Two unknown Pokemon which can fuse with Calyrex
? Two Calyrex formes created through fusion with unknown Pokemon

Bruh I'm so buff if you take off my arm bands I will literally destroy you. I skipped leg day tho.
Regieleki
Type: Electric
Ability: Transistor ("Its Electric-type moves are said to pack the greatest power of any used by Electric-type Pokémon."*)

Oh look it's another Charizard
Regidrago
Type: Dragon
Ability: Dragon's Maw ("Regidrago can use Dragon-type moves with greater power than other Pokémon."*)

This thing looks so snooty
Articuno-Galar
Type: Psychic / Flying
Ability: Competitive

EDGE
Moltres-Galar
Type: Dark / Flying
Ability: Berserk

Why is the URL for this image spelled Zapados? Does Game Freak know how to spell their own mons names? Also this thing looks like a dirty deranged ostrich.
Zapdos-Galar
Type: Fighting / Flying
Ability: Defiant

King that moves Slow cuz he can't even see
Slowking-Galar
Type: Poison / Psychic
Ability: Curious Medicine ("When a Pokémon with this Ability enters the battlefield, allies’ stat changes are reset."

*Regidrago's and Regieleki's ability desciptions, as listed here, do not necessarily pertain to their abilities as the description is listed on the Pokemon website, which merely mentions them as attributes of the Pokemon.
Dragon Energy Type: Unconfirmed (take a wild guess)
(Regidrago: "The more HP the user has remaining, the higher the move’s power.")

Eerie Spell Type: Psychic
(Slowking-Galar: "Eerie Spell is a Psychic-type special move... If hit, the opponent doesn’t only take damage—it also loses 3 PP from the move it last used.")

Fiery Wrath Type: Dark
(Moltres-Galar: "This Dark-type special move... may also make opposing Pokémon flinch.")

Freezing Glare Type: Psychic
(Articuno-Galar: "Freezing Glare is a Psychic-type special move... This move may also leave the target frozen.")

Thunder Cage Type: Electric
(Regieleki: "In this Electric-type special move... Thunder Cage doesn’t only deal damage to opponents when it lands—it will also cause them to be trapped within an electrified cage, causing damage every turn for four to five turns and preventing them from fleeing or being swapped out.")

Thunderous Kick Type: Fighting
(Zapdos-Galar: "This Fighting-type physical move... also lowers the target’s Defense stat.")
Aeroblast - Lugia
Core Enforcer - Zygarde
Crush Grip - Regigigas
Diamond Storm - Diancie
Dragon Ascent - Rayquaza
Geomancy - Xerneas
Land's Wrath - Zygarde
Lovely Kiss - Jynx
Lunar Dance - Cresselia
Luster Purge - Latios
Magma Storm - Heatran
Mind Blow - Blacephalon
Mist Ball - Latias
Nature's Madness - Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini
Oblivion Wing - Yveltal
Origin Pulse - Kyogre
Precipice Blades - Groudon
Roar of Time - Dialga
Sacred Fire - Ho-oh
Searing Shot - Victini
Shadow Force - Giratina
Spacial Rend - Palkia
Steam Eruption - Volcanion
Techno Blast - Genesect
Thousand Arrows - Zygarde
Thousand Waves - Zygarde

This list assumes that if a Pokemon returns its signature move will also return*. Obviously this is not necessarily true in every case (eg: Heal Order) however it's a fairly safe bet in most cases.

*Manaphy doesn't currently have any signature moves. Feel free to theorize Tail Glow or Heart Swap if you believe they will return, but I will not be listing them here.
Please let me know if any of the information in the hide tag above is incorrect or incomplete. I especially feel like I likely missed a returning move.

I will ask that you be courteous and put your theorizing in hide tags, but will not be deleting posts that do not do this. If you don't want spoilers it may be best to avoid this thread for a little while.

Stuff I initially forgot:
Isle of Armor tutor moves
TM / TR List
shoutouts Chloe for hosting the thread I just stole these two links from.
 
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Would like to add this to keep in mind. Entei is more functional this gen with access to inner focus as an ha via ability patch. Inner focus gor buffed this gen with now completely ignoring intimidate.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-Therian: 250-295 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Entei is stronger this gen with this apllication and allows it not to have worry about intim mons and still carries stomping tantrum for heatran, has access to espeed, and can even change to jolly if it wants to due to the addition of mints this gen.
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
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I've been trying to get some idea of what a preliminary banlist should look like. None of this is going to be finalized before the actual DLC drops of course; they could change Smoochum's BST to 1000 and Ho-oh's to 6 for all we know.

However I'm going to discuss what I think should be banned and / or watchlisted based on our current knowledge.

Easy Bans
:lugia::ho-oh::blaziken::kyogre::groudon::rayquaza::dialga::palkia::giratina::landorus::genesect::xerneas::yveltal::zygarde-complete::tapu_koko::tapu_lele::pheromosa::kartana:

This is essentially Pokemon that have been banned in OU since their inception plus Koko, Lele, and Kartana, who all get absolute nukes of moves here. There is no practical way any of these are balanced, and I cannot see them as anything but instant bans. Genesect, Naganadel, and Landorus-I all seem slightly less broken than the rest at a casual glance, but Genesect's absurd movepool including both Shift Gear and Quiver Dance here Naganadel's awesome dual STAB and high offensive stats (plus Clangorous Soul if it wants here), and and Landorus-I's Sheer Force boosted STABs and coverage, especially Hurricane, push them all far into broken territory.

Note that Koko and Lele, even with this generation's terrain nerf, still 2hko pretty much the entire metagame thanks to the new terrain moves. Supposedly they get them naturally so enjoy that OU.

As for moves:
Geomancy, Lovely Kiss, Thousand Arrows

Geomancy is a top three, maybe top two broken move, only beaten out definitively by Shell Smash.
Lovely Kiss is accurate Sleep with no immunity besides complete Sleep immunity, and we've been over that ground many times before: broken and uncompetitive.
Thousand Arrows turns Pokemon such as Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, Excadrill, etc. into nigh impossible to wall nukes focused on being as strong as possible with almost no resists. While we have no Mega Chomp this gen it's still an absurdly broken move due to how much it compresses coverage and moveslots on an already excellent type.

Watchlist
:aerodactyl::blacephalon::naganadel::thundurus::thundurus-therian::tornadus-therian::zygarde::zapdos:-Galar

Most of these were banned last generation, and all except Zygarde benefit from the removal of Pursuit, with most also loving Heavy Duty Boots. Aerodactyl gonna smash, Blac gonna Lash, Zygarde gonna spam Thousand Arrows now with recovery. Etc. The most questionable one of these is Zapdos-Galar, mainly because we don't know its stats. If it gets 125 Attack (Zapdos' SpA) it will be super hard to switch into, especially with no Beak Blast in the foreseeable future and it actively benefitting from Intimidate thanks to Defiant. If it gets something else... who knows.

As for moves:
Oblivion Wing

There are three Pokemon on the list above that are there partially or primarily because of Oblivion Wing sets. Is the right way to go to ban Oblivion Wing? This deserves more discussion, presuming the mons end up borked.

EDIT: Moved Naganadel from easy ban to watchlist. Without Z moves it isn't as notably broken a threat, and deserves a chance. It did get a couple new toys in Dragon Energy and Clangorous Soul however.

Possible Unbans
:gengar::darmanitan::dragapult:

:gengar: Everyone's favorite fully evolved Gen 1 Ghost (literally everyone's ain't like there's competition) is still an amazing wallbreaker and sweeper, but it will be much easier to offensively threaten in the upcoming metagame with its Speed tier being more approachable, several scarfers being reintroduced, and some priority users that smack it around. Specifically Aerodactyl, Tornadus-Therian, Thundurus-Incarnate, Scarf Landorus-Therian, and Shadow Sneak Blacephalon will all be very good and check it easily. Some of these will more than likely end up banned however.

:darmanitan: Darmanitan's nuclear wallbreaking powers are still incredible, however with the current dominance of Toxapex which seems unlikely to go anywhere, the reintroduction of Tapu Fini, Landorus-Therian, the Latis, and even Swampert it seems reasonable to give it another chance. The metagame is getting faster, and Darmanitan has never been terribly difficult to chip. Losing V-Create was a blow against it as well.
Note that this does NOT include the Galarian version. That thing manages to stay absurd.

:dragapult: The least likely of these three to get a second chance, Dragapult remains one of the fastest things in the metagame, with nothing that is coming back outspeeding besides Pheromosa, which is highly highly unlikely to ever be legal. It also hits super hard with a good dual STAB, and we're not particularly getting anything which can tank it well that we both know the stats of and will not ban immediately. This may be an unban suspect to see if a metagame with a generally increased power level can deal with it better, but frankly the more I look at it the less I think it will fit back in.
 
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Watchlist
:aerodactyl::blacephalon::thundurus::thundurus-therian::tornadus-therian::zygarde::zapdos:-Galar

Most of these were banned last generation, and all except Zygarde benefit from the removal of Pursuit, with most also loving Heavy Duty Boots. Aerodactyl gonna smash, Blac gonna Lash, Zygarde gonna spam Thousand Arrows now with recovery. Etc. The most questionable one of these is Zapdos-Galar, mainly because we don't know its stats. If it gets 125 Attack (Zapdos' SpA) it will be super hard to switch into, especially with no Beak Blast in the foreseeable future and it actively benefitting from Intimidate thanks to Defiant. If it gets something else... who knows.

As for moves:
Oblivion Wing

There are three Pokemon on the list above that are there partially or primarily because of Oblivion Wing sets. Is the right way to go to ban Oblivion Wing? This deserves more discussion, presuming the mons end up borked.
We could probably add G-Molt to the list of potential brokens as well, assuming it doesnt have insanely bad speed. Owing seems especially good on it, since afaik it has Berserk (+1 spa whenever you drop below 50% hp) which lets you Sub up and then heal up without using roost in order to stack spa boosts without needing NP, or just adding onto the NP boosts it already accumulated. Dark/Flying is a very good STAB combo, only walled by Magearna (which im assuming molt will get fire coverage for), TTar and Diancie so I could definitely see Moltres causing trouble in the tier.

As for Owing vs birds, I guess it probably comes down to how many flying types we have to ban because they are abusing Owing (if its 4 or more, the problem is probably Owing) and does banning owing actually make them managable. I'm not even sure that NP Torn actually needs Owing, regen lets it stay topped off over the course of the game and with Aero/FB/Plot/Taunt it still punches holes in teams - altho Owing definitely makes it easier to just sit on taunted fatmons. Actually now that I wrote this, Plot + Owing + Taunt on anything seems absolutely disgusting lmao. Not banning Owing soon enough could easily lead to every viable special flying type getting banned. Just my 2 cents.
 
I've been trying to get some idea of what a preliminary banlist should look like. None of this is going to be finalized before the actual DLC drops of course; they could change Smoochum's BST to 1000 and Ho-oh's to 6 for all we know.

However I'm going to discuss what I think should be banned and / or watchlisted based on our current knowledge.

Easy Bans
:lugia::ho-oh::blaziken::kyogre::groudon::rayquaza::dialga::palkia::giratina::landorus::genesect::xerneas::yveltal::zygarde-complete::tapu_koko::tapu_lele::pheromosa::kartana::naganadel:

This is essentially Pokemon that have been banned in OU since their inception plus Koko, Lele, and Kartana, who all get absolute nukes of moves here. There is no practical way any of these are balanced, and I cannot see them as anything but instant bans. Genesect, Naganadel, and Landorus-I all seem slightly less broken than the rest at a casual glance, but Genesect's absurd movepool including both Shift Gear and Quiver Dance here, Naganadel's awesome dual STAB and high offensive stats (plus Clangorous Soul if it wants here), and and Landorus-I's Sheer Force boosted STABs and coverage, especially Hurricane, push them all far into broken territory.

Note that Koko and Lele, even with this generation's terrain nerf, still 2hko pretty much the entire metagame thanks to the new terrain moves. Supposedly they get them naturally so enjoy that OU.

As for moves:
Geomancy, Lovely Kiss, Thousand Arrows

Geomancy is a top three, maybe top two broken move, only beaten out definitively by Shell Smash.
Lovely Kiss is accurate Sleep with no immunity besides complete Sleep immunity, and we've been over that ground many times before: broken and uncompetitive.
Thousand Arrows turns Pokemon such as Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, Excadrill, etc. into nigh impossible to wall nukes focused on being as strong as possible with almost no resists. While we have no Mega Chomp this gen it's still an absurdly broken move due to how much it compresses coverage and moveslots on an already excellent type.

Watchlist
:aerodactyl::blacephalon::thundurus::thundurus-therian::tornadus-therian::zygarde::zapdos:-Galar

Most of these were banned last generation, and all except Zygarde benefit from the removal of Pursuit, with most also loving Heavy Duty Boots. Aerodactyl gonna smash, Blac gonna Lash, Zygarde gonna sI pam Thousand Arrows now with recovery. Etc. The most questionable one of these is Zapdos-Galar, mainly because we don't know its stats. If it gets 125 Attack (Zapdos' SpA) it will be super hard to switch into, especially with no Beak Blast in the foreseeable future and it actively benefitting from Intimidate thanks to Defiant. If it gets something else... who knows.

As for moves:
Oblivion Wing

There are three Pokemon on the list above that are there partially or primarily because of Oblivion Wing sets. Is the right way to go to ban Oblivion Wing? This deserves more discussion, presuming the mons end up borked.
I absolutely agree with most of this, but I have a few thoughts:

Should Lando-T not at least be watchlisted? Getting a real flying STAB move, recovery, Scorching Sands, all in addition to its normal set of toys I'd argue isn't bannable, but definitely something that should be on the watchlist. Edit: I've been swayed on this

Heatran should be watchlisted. Meteor Beam when combined with its other moves could make this really turn into a nutty runaway sweeper.

While we don't know the exact details, Freezing Glare just absolutely has to be watchlisted, if not banned, just by default. If it's anything like Scald (but psychic type and it freezes), it'll be absolutely nuts, to the point where I think it could be meta-defining. There are far too many crazy-powerful and fast psychic types, and it seems to be phrased as if its freeze chance is higher than the standard 10%. 30% (or Arceus forbid, higher) would be too much. I also want to remind everyone that Jirachi and Meloetta *cough* with Serene Grace *cough* get it.
 
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yikes

Formerly simsims2800
I've been trying to get some idea of what a preliminary banlist should look like. None of this is going to be finalized before the actual DLC drops of course; they could change Smoochum's BST to 1000 and Ho-oh's to 6 for all we know.

However I'm going to discuss what I think should be banned and / or watchlisted based on our current knowledge.

Easy Bans
:lugia::ho-oh::blaziken::kyogre::groudon::rayquaza::dialga::palkia::giratina::landorus::genesect::xerneas::yveltal::zygarde-complete::tapu_koko::tapu_lele::pheromosa::kartana::naganadel:

This is essentially Pokemon that have been banned in OU since their inception plus Koko, Lele, and Kartana, who all get absolute nukes of moves here. There is no practical way any of these are balanced, and I cannot see them as anything but instant bans. Genesect, Naganadel, and Landorus-I all seem slightly less broken than the rest at a casual glance, but Genesect's absurd movepool including both Shift Gear and Quiver Dance here, Naganadel's awesome dual STAB and high offensive stats (plus Clangorous Soul if it wants here), and and Landorus-I's Sheer Force boosted STABs and coverage, especially Hurricane, push them all far into broken territory.

Note that Koko and Lele, even with this generation's terrain nerf, still 2hko pretty much the entire metagame thanks to the new terrain moves. Supposedly they get them naturally so enjoy that OU.

As for moves:
Geomancy, Lovely Kiss, Thousand Arrows

Geomancy is a top three, maybe top two broken move, only beaten out definitively by Shell Smash.
Lovely Kiss is accurate Sleep with no immunity besides complete Sleep immunity, and we've been over that ground many times before: broken and uncompetitive.
Thousand Arrows turns Pokemon such as Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, Excadrill, etc. into nigh impossible to wall nukes focused on being as strong as possible with almost no resists. While we have no Mega Chomp this gen it's still an absurdly broken move due to how much it compresses coverage and moveslots on an already excellent type.

Watchlist
:aerodactyl::blacephalon::thundurus::thundurus-therian::tornadus-therian::zygarde::zapdos:-Galar

Most of these were banned last generation, and all except Zygarde benefit from the removal of Pursuit, with most also loving Heavy Duty Boots. Aerodactyl gonna smash, Blac gonna Lash, Zygarde gonna spam Thousand Arrows now with recovery. Etc. The most questionable one of these is Zapdos-Galar, mainly because we don't know its stats. If it gets 125 Attack (Zapdos' SpA) it will be super hard to switch into, especially with no Beak Blast in the foreseeable future and it actively benefitting from Intimidate thanks to Defiant. If it gets something else... who knows.

As for moves:
Oblivion Wing

There are three Pokemon on the list above that are there partially or primarily because of Oblivion Wing sets. Is the right way to go to ban Oblivion Wing? This deserves more discussion, presuming the mons end up borked.
I haven't played much STAB this gen and haven't been very good at it, but I'm somewhat surprised there's no mention of Tapu Bulu whatsoever. Grassy Glide is definitely a frightening addition to its movepool, as is the datamined addition of ose Com️at. Although from what I can tell, it's gonna get all the stuff it would want from STABmons naturally anyway, so idk
 

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