Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

EV

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So the STABmons Open signups start in 5 days. What all do we need to address before the tournament?

On the table:
  • Diggersby
  • Scizorite
 
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Scizor(ite). Scizor is undeniably an extremely good pokemon in the meta and I believe that it is potentially broken. It has amazing wall breaking power speed and bulk as well as the best non-e-speed priority in the tier.
 

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Scizor(ite). Scizor is undeniably an extremely good pokemon in the meta and I believe that it is potentially broken. It has amazing wall breaking power speed and bulk as well as the best non-e-speed priority in the tier.
Eh, I wouldn't really agree, anything with a fire move can force it out. It also has a huge case of 4mss
 

baconbagon

free stabmons
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Eh, I wouldn't really agree, anything with a fire move can force it out. It also has a huge case of 4mss
The thing is, Scizor just needs one turn to destroy the opponent. Fire-type moves don't even necessarily force it out, because after a Shift Gear it can beat most of them:

+1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 456-538 (118.1 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 274-324 (92.2 - 109%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
(life orb obviously ohkoes)
+1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 204-240 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(once again, life orb gets the ohko after sr)

Scizor's 4mss isn't huge, but yeah it's there and it means it can't run all the coverage and Roost on one set. It often depends on Pin Missile getting a good number of hits too, which can be annoying when it hits twice. Adamant Scizor also misses out on Scarf Keldeo at +2, which can Origin Pulse or Water Spout it first, and most Shift Gear Scizor can also be revenge killed by Vacuum Wave at any time

It also carries a ton of utility with U-turn, Bullet Punch, Knock Off, Pursuit, Defog, Sticky Web, reliable healing in Roost, etc. which definitely expands on its splashability and versatility. For more information read (and QC) my analysis imo tbh

Overall, I feel like yeah Scizorite should be looked at, Mega Scizor's an insane sweeper and pivot.
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
[16:13] ~Eevee General: ban y/n
[16:13] Klang: y

My adviser has spoken.

Diggersby is banned. The Immortal
My first and only reaction: Wtf? I get that people think it's broken, but there has literally been basically no discussion besides "we think it's a problem and it should be suspected (which isn't discussion in the first place)". If bans are this disorganized and randomly enforced in the future we're likely to end up where we were before...
 

EV

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My first and only reaction: Wtf? I get that people think it's broken, but there has literally been basically no discussion besides "we think it's a problem and it should be suspected (which isn't discussion in the first place)". If bans are this disorganized and randomly enforced in the future we're likely to end up where we were before...
Idk where you've been but it was discussed, albeit quickly. I brought it up multiple times in the chat, too.

I've also been basically doing only quickbans to get ready for the STABmons Open, something I was very vocal about and have continued to emphasize when I bring up suspects.

So sorry you missed them but we did discuss Diggersby.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Idk where you've been but it was discussed, albeit quickly. I brought it up multiple times in the chat, too.

I've also been basically doing only quickbans to get ready for the STABmons Open, something I was very vocal about and have continued to emphasize when I bring up suspects.

So sorry you missed them but we did discuss Diggersby.
Well for that matter, there has not been one reasonable analysis of diggersby's broken effect on the metagame, leaving anybody not in the chat at the time completely in the dark. The only official word that was given was "maybe we do something" to "somebody said ban when i said y/n so we ban it," which is appalling (you could've gotten away with the joke if there was some sort of reasoning, but there is none).

My main problem is that I don't believe that diggersby negatively affects the metagame. Maybe it's broken by standard definitions but in my mind it promotes diversity more than it limits (teams still need fakespeed checks and having diggersby as an all-in-one revenge killer gave teams more free slots, not to mention that stall is only possible in the diggersby metagame). The fact that there was quick discussion makes me think there wasn't much opposition, which is the exact thing you DON'T want when you're discussing such a metagame defining suspect. Diggersby is literally the face of the metagame, and banning it right before tour basically means there is and will be no stability.

Honestly, this metagame is no different than it was before. The perception that we were "making mistakes" before is just a backstory as we are literally rewriting history by banning the same things we did before.

OK now bring on the hate, I really don't care. I'm just waiting for somebody to get mad over what I'm saying right now. It honestly doesn't matter to me, this metagame is the same as it was when we tried to change it so I probably won't play it anymore.
 

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Well for that matter, there has not been one reasonable analysis of diggersby's broken effect on the metagame, leaving anybody not in the chat at the time completely in the dark. The only official word that was given was "maybe we do something" to "somebody said ban when i said y/n so we ban it," which is appalling (you could've gotten away with the joke if there was some sort of reasoning, but there is none).

My main problem is that I don't believe that diggersby negatively affects the metagame. Maybe it's broken by standard definitions but in my mind it promotes diversity more than it limits (teams still need fakespeed checks and having diggersby as an all-in-one revenge killer gave teams more free slots, not to mention that stall is only possible in the diggersby metagame). The fact that there was quick discussion makes me think there wasn't much opposition, which is the exact thing you DON'T want when you're discussing such a metagame defining suspect. Diggersby is literally the face of the metagame, and banning it right before tour basically means there is and will be no stability.

Honestly, this metagame is no different than it was before. The perception that we were "making mistakes" before is just a backstory as we are literally rewriting history by banning the same things we did before.

OK now bring on the hate, I really don't care. I'm just waiting for somebody to get mad over what I'm saying right now. It honestly doesn't matter to me, this metagame is the same as it was when we tried to change it so I probably won't play it anymore.

/me doesn't hate

Blame Klang if you want to make arguments :^)

So now that diggers is banned, Mega Lopunny is now better than ever! Also Thundurus has huge amounts of pressure alleviated from it, and I find it jumping back up in viability.
I'm quite sure the effect on the metagame is positive, but what should I know, the only good STABmons team I made was [Basically] made by Eevee General ^_^

Also when are enough bans in place to make stall viable and really good?
 

EV

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I didn't ban it because Klang said yes lol. That was in PMs. I actually had just posted a poll beforehand. Also an FYI I was the biggest opposition to banning Diggs. Have you even been reading this thread?
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
I didn't ban it because Klang said yes lol. That was in PMs. I actually had just posted a poll beforehand. Also an FYI I was the biggest opposition to banning Diggs. Have you even been reading this thread?
Yes, and your opposition covered almost none of an actual argument on this thread. I said it already, have somebody pro-ban give detailed arguments that addresses the anti-ban arguments I presented before and I'll shut up.
 

miltankmilk

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Yes, and your opposition covered almost none of an actual argument on this thread. I said it already, have somebody pro-ban give detailed arguments that addresses the anti-ban arguments I presented before and I'll shut up.
Just because you weren't present for the discussion and you're opposed to the outcome doesn't mean that it didn't happen
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Just because you weren't present for the discussion and you're opposed to the outcome doesn't mean that it didn't happen
No, it's not ME alone that wasn't there for the discussion. You can't just discuss the metagame and decide to ban something with no indication of the contents of the discussion to anybody who wasn't present at that time. Sorry I'm busy with All-state and can't be on showdown constantly, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't get a chance to be a part of the discussion, or at least have some description of the discussion itself.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Diggs REQUIRED you to have multiple checks or you basically just died. I'd like to drop this replay here of me vs virgin (had alts at #2/#12 on the stabmons ladder at the time). His diggs check was Ferro. I had fire punch diggs. I predicted the obvious switch, eliminated ferro, and then every time diggs came in it basically got a kill. I had 2 diggs checks on that team, and one of them was eliminated early due to a crit, however if HE had fire punch I was in a difficult situation as well. It put so much pressure on the opponent to predict your set, and if you used a lure (it gets Ice Punch for Lando-T, Wild Charge for Gyarados/Skarmory, and Fire Punch for Ferrothorn) that instantly put the matchup in your favour. Just the fact that it might have a coverage move to hit your check forced you to play differently. Even though I loved using it, it is really broken. The last team I made had 2 of diggersby's better checks and left me pretty weak to sylv/tran/sableye, cuz i just didn't have enough teamslots to finish checking those mons. It made teambuilding very difficult, could easily overwhelm checks/counters with the right set, and was an insanely powerful revenge killer, basically killing every mon that tried to set up unless it was a rock/steel/ghost type or had excellent physical bulk, and it could do this even to mons with speed boosts because it used strong priority.

tldr borked af, overcentralizing, sad to see it go cuz i loved using it but it restricted teambuilding too much so had to be banned
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
No, it's not ME alone that wasn't there for the discussion. You can't just discuss the metagame and decide to ban something with no indication of the contents of the discussion to anybody who wasn't present at that time. Sorry I'm busy with All-state and can't be on showdown constantly, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't get a chance to be a part of the discussion, or at least have some description of the discussion itself.
well i mean, its his meta, he CAN if he wants too.(not that he did or anything). on top of that, whats there to discuss that wasn't discussed last time it was banned? the meta hasn't changed at all since its introduction that would warrent giving it more consistant checks and counters(hence why it was banned last time) theres no point resuspecting something the entire community begged eevee to ban in the first place, and since the meta looks NO different from before, it really doesn't need to have too much discussion. legit, we got 3 less attacks, and thats it. the meta looks no different. sure, there wasn't much discussion, but thats because we were literally repeating ourselves. which is just a waste of time. diggersby still completely shits on offense and stall just as badly, and requires you to run 2 checks just to attempt to manage it. thats NOT healthy. and thats reasoning for a quickban if ive ever seen one.

sure, diggers couldve had more discussion...but what more can we add that we didn't last time?
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
well i mean, its his meta, he CAN if he wants too.(not that he did or anything). on top of that, whats there to discuss that wasn't discussed last time it was banned? the meta hasn't changed at all since its introduction that would warrent giving it more consistant checks and counters(hence why it was banned last time) theres no point resuspecting something the entire community begged eevee to ban in the first place, and since the meta looks NO different from before, it really doesn't need to have too much discussion. legit, we got 3 less attacks, and thats it. the meta looks no different. sure, there wasn't much discussion, but thats because we were literally repeating ourselves. which is just a waste of time. diggersby still completely shits on offense and stall just as badly, and requires you to run 2 checks just to attempt to manage it. thats NOT healthy. and thats reasoning for a quickban if ive ever seen one.

sure, diggers couldve had more discussion...but what more can we add that we didn't last time?
Because the new meta was supposed to be about getting second chances to recreate past events to attempt to find different outcomes, I fail to see how we can utterly ignore an anti-ban argument with a mon that was banned on almost a 50/50 split before and literally began the downward spiral of the previous metagame. Before the Diggersby ban we had some semblance of balance in the old meta, and afterwards it was just a fest for matchup-based offense. Now we have literally recreated the old meta. Where did we go wrong? What was even the point of restarting the meta if we were going to watch the same outcome reoccur?
 
Because the new meta was supposed to be about getting second chances to recreate past events to attempt to find different outcomes, I fail to see how we can utterly ignore an anti-ban argument with a mon that was banned on almost a 50/50 split before and literally began the downward spiral of the previous metagame. Before the Diggersby ban we had some semblance of balance in the old meta, and afterwards it was just a fest for matchup-based offense. Now we have literally recreated the old meta. Where did we go wrong? What was even the point of restarting the meta if we were going to watch the same outcome reoccur?
The reason we switched back was because no-one thought Stabmons 2 was fun. The reason we banned diggersby is because it is broken(no viable pokemon can check all of his common sets) and overcentralizing(he required every team to have at least 2 answers to him). If the metagame appears to be worse after banning a broken and overcentalizing mon, then the threats it was holding back are broken/overcentralizing/uncompetitive/unhealthy and needed to be banned in the first place.
 

Josh

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And to build on what eevee said, even if we do end up banning those i think its still fine. The point is that stabmons 2.0 (either attack or status) was boring, terrible in my opinion, and nobody (I know at least) enjoyed it. Reverting should have happened either way. Deciding to revert completely to ou banlist is a decent idea, as it gives us the opportunity to free more pokemon into the metagame. I really don't find Sylveon, Kyub, or Keldeo broken, and even Mega Bro is manageable. Even if we do end up banning them, its still better than stabmons 2.0 was.

To actually talk about the meta instead of semantics: has anyone tried AV Metagross recently? baconbagon and I both enjoy using it, it seems to be a really effective pursuit trapper with very solid bulk combined with acceptable offensive presence. Anyone else have experience with it?
 

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