Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

Considering that Normal moves were what I've heard the most complaints about, I believe a good place to start might be Extreme Speed and perhaps Shell Smash as well. The ability to hit at +2 with +2 priority at +2 Speed is simply amazing, especially on something like Mega Lopunny which has an excellent Attack stat to back those up.
 
vindication intensifies

Anyways, here are my thoughts on a hypothetical banlist of moves.

  • Spore -- Reliable sleep moves are handled decently in standard, but in principle it's kind of ridiculous. If we get more good offensive Grass-types, it would become much more problematic.
  • Shift Gear -- Steel-types are amazing, and Shift Gear is an amazing setup move. Makes them too difficult to stop.
  • Extremespeed -- Ridiculous on Normal-types and a few -ate users, especially in conjunction with setup. Extremely centralizing, very painful for Hyper Offense.
  • Boomburst -- Disgustingly powerful, compounds centralization around Steel/Rock-types.
  • Techno Blast -- 86% as strong as Boomburst. Plate Judgment is perfectly fine for coverage.
  • Shell Smash -- Just too difficult to handle for both offensive and defensive teams.
  • Thousand Arrows -- Given the lackluster/niche defensive capabilities of Grass and Bug-types, offensive Ground-types are gonna be terrifying when this is released. Not an immediate issue.
  • Thousand Waves -- A trapping move that doesn't suffer from low accuracy, lower power, or low distribution... yikes. Also not an immediate issue.
  • Dark Void? 80% accuracy is still pretty good, and it hits Grass-types and Safety Goggles users, but I'm not as sure about it as I am with Spore.
  • Tail Glow? While it's a disgustingly good move, Bug-types are ass (or at least, Specially-inclined ones are) historically, save for Volcarona. Tail Glow is not a problem in this generation, but we don't know what'll happen come Gen 7.
  • Quiver Dance? See above.
  • Oblivion Wing? I only mention it because it makes Thundurus exceptionally difficult to answer defensively and makes Charizard-Mega-Y even more of a terror. Probably fine, but I'm mentioning it anyways.
  • Dragon Ascent? It's a very powerful move in a very good attacking type that doesn't cause recoil. Brave Bird at least puts Flying-types on a timer.
  • Belly Drum? Given the HP drop, this would probably only be relevant to ban if we decided to allow new things to get Espeed.
  • Fake Out? See above.
  • Steam Eruption? When it arrives, offensive Water-types are gonna be a huge pain, and Scald is already bullshit so at least keep an eye on it.
  • Water Spout? STAB with a Scarf is really awful to be up against if you don't have priority right then and there.
  • Eruption? See above.
  • V-Create? The most powerful move in the game, and your team does need a certain degree of offensive pressure to actually capitalize on the opponent using it. But maybe it's okay, idk. It's not like Fire-types lack for cool new physically offensive moves.
  • Doom Desire? It's a delayed effect, but switches can be shuffled with Roar or capitalized upon, and it's as powerful as Boomburst.
  • Geomancy? Single-use, but stupidly powerful. IDK.
  • Hidden Power Fire? i can't predict it and it always kills my scizor pls help????

Some Pokemon would have to stay banned even with the obvious changes, but mostly things that were always kind of on the edge of being broken anyways.
 
Last edited:

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
i completely agree with akumeoy. all of those are very banworthy, even add on belly drum too. but regardless, it would be nice to use loppunny, sylveon and other monsters and actually be decent-rather-then-destructive in the tier.

also wait...
The deed is done :toast:

(OU banlist; no Sketch, no Chatter)
does this imply sylveon, and the others are usable? ._.
 
Thousand Waves -- A trapping move that doesn't suffer from low accuracy, lower power, or low distribution... yikes. Also not an immediate issue.
Trapping moves ultimately tend to suffer from the issue that anything you'd want to trap is usually something that doesn't want to stay in on you anyway/won't switch in on you, and therefore you end up trapping things that you want to switch out of, which is obviously useless. I have doubts about Thousand Waves breaking the meta when released.

Dark Void? 80% accuracy is still pretty good, and it hits Grass-types and Safety Goggles users, but I'm not as sure about it as I am with Spore.
I consider Dark Void more problematic, myself, since Spore can be answered by Grass types, Safety Goggles 'mons, and Overcoaters. (Escavalier, for instance, is fairly cool in STABmons and might as well run Overcoat, given that Swarm is meh and Shell Armor is just as specialized) Dark Void's inaccuracy isn't enough of a problem, really.

Steam Eruption? When it arrives, offensive Water-types are gonna be a huge pain, and Scald is already bullshit so at least keep an eye on it.
Honestly, Steam Eruption is kind of shit. If you want a Water type move that can Burn things, you'd rather have Scald, which doesn't miss and has much higher PP. If you want a Water type move that actually murders things, you'd often rather take Water Spout. The only nice thing about it is that it's a flat upgrade over Origin Pulse if you're not Mega Launcher-capable... and Mega Blastoise is one of the only Special attacking Water types that pulls off the slow, bulky attacker thing.

Doom Desire? It's a delayed effect, but switches can be shuffled with Roar or capitalized upon, and it's as powerful as Boomburst.
Honestly, Heatran is basically the only good OU user currently. Most Steel types have awful Special attack, and Heatran is a unique intersection of a bunch of considerations beyond the good Special Attack. Jirachi is one of the only other Steel types to have so much as 100 Special Attack, and hey, it already has Doom Desire... and generally ignores it.
 

EV

you're doing great
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Even tho the meta is brand-spanking new, I want to issue quick bans on moves so we can get this more user-friendly come the STABmons Open.

Right now I'm pretty set on banning Shell Smash, Belly Drum, and Boomburst (and by small extension, Techno Blast) to start.

  • Shell Smash - +2/+2/+2 is a ridiculously broken trade-off for the -1/-1 drops to defenses (often mitigated by a White Herb or Focus Sash.) The question regarding Shell Smash is not "why are you running it?" on your offensive Pokemon, but rather: "Why are you not?" It's too easy to exploit and breaks just about anything that wants to use it. What else needs saying?
  • Belly Drum - Belly Drum is fairly benign without Extreme Speed in most cases, but Extreme Speed is less benign by itself, hence why I'm picking Belly Drum over Extreme Speed to ban. Why not both? I still think revenge-killing tactics are too important to strip from the metagame, because even if we ban some setup moves, setup will be king. Similar to Shell Smash, losing 1/2 HP is not so bad considering you can shoot up to +6 in 1 turn. Sitrus Berry, HP-recovering attacks (mostly Drain Punch), Substitute, and a few other niche options help mitigate this trade-off. Overall the benefit is too good and answers the question above. "Why are you not using Shell Smash?" "Because I'm using Belly Drum instead."
  • Boomburst / Techno Blast - Where to start? 140 BP with no trade-offs (other than that Soundproof immunity.) Bypasses Substitutes. 16 PP. 100% accuracy. Pretty much anything that wants to run this move is broken with it. (Most certainly it's broken on Porygon-Z, Sylveon, and Mega Altaria. Questionably broken on Meloetta [unless you factor in Shell Smash, then it definitely is.]) At least other high BP moves have trade-offs, such as V-creates stat drops or Water Spout's diminishing returns. Now with Techno Blast, 120 BP is not necessarily so bad on its own, but it has perfect accuracy, so again, no trade-offs other than only 8 PP I guess. PZ, Sylveon, and Mega Altaria can still do huge damage with the move, and as such, it should go with Boomburst.
Things on the radar: Shift Gear, Dark Void, and Geomancy.
 

wishes

blame it on u
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Ban Shift Gear too. Limits Mega Metagross / Mega Scizor. Though I feel like Mwga Scizor is terrible right now anyways, but because of Mega Metagross.

I think Shell Smash deserves a ban too, but not Belly Drum. Belly Drum is really hard to set up versus offense, +6 Extreme Speed is stopped by Mega Metagross, and it is useless against Quagsire / Clefable. Belly Drum is good, but not overwhelming or centralizing to the point of being banned. I'm not in favor of banning Boomburst if Shell Smash is; but I'd rather both be banned it doesn't matter. I feel that Boomburst + Shell Smash is the problem, but not Boomburst itself. Can we start with just Shift Gear + Shell Smash banned and I guess Belly Drum if other people want, and then see how good Boomburst is?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Mafia Champion
Jesus, I remember when Stabmons was like this. I was enjoying the format we had before, with status OR attacking moves. I do agree with most of the list of things that must be banned.
I disagree. baconbagon and I were going to suggest we revert to these rules anyways. I found the status OR attacking moves meta a lot more boring, this one is a lot more fun imho.

I don't think we should look at Thousand Waves or Steam Eruption yet. Wait until we have actually played with them in the meta, and give our thoughts then. Theory banning is meh.

I could see a Dark Void ban. It is fucking annoying, especially with Sab and Weavile.

No reason to ban Doom Desire. Unlike Boomburst it has no real abusers, and doesn't get you out of immediate danger due to the delay.

Definitely support Boomburst ban, and on Meloetta the combination is ridiculous I'd definitely say it is another abuser.

Support Belly Drum ban to keep Ursaring viable because it is ridiculous and when paired with memento/screens/dark void or spore there are many free setup opps.

Shell Smash is just stupid and turns the shit mons that get it naturally into ok threats, lol. Ban af.

I'm neutral about Shift Gear.

Geomancy should probably be banned imo, unless you ban Power Herb to go the other way. It is basically a better Shell Smash for special attackers, which most fairies are.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I think Shell Smash deserves a ban too, but not Belly Drum. Belly Drum is really hard to set up versus offense, +6 Extreme Speed is stopped by Mega Metagross, and it is useless against Quagsire / Clefable. Belly Drum is good, but not overwhelming or centralizing to the point of being banned. I'm not in favor of banning Boomburst if Shell Smash is; but I'd rather both be banned it doesn't matter. I feel that Boomburst + Shell Smash is the problem, but not Boomburst itself. Can we start with just Shift Gear + Shell Smash banned and I guess Belly Drum if other people want, and then see how good Boomburst is?
i thought so too, until lovely kiss loppuny came along and 6-0ed me. honestly, belly drum is a problem because even offense has moments where its vunerable to setup. honestly, even when im prepared for belly drum, i get completely crapped on by it just because of one slight misplay/ he ran lovely kiss. .-.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
Here are my thoughts as someone who's played the meta a ton in the old stabmons (but not recently due to collage):

Shell Smash: BAN. It's fairly obvious that this move can set up a lot of stupid sweeps, so no explanation needed.
Belly Drum: BAN. See above reasoning.
Boomburst: BAN. It's a 140 BP move with quite a bit of PP for its power that can go through subs. No explanation really needed.
Techno Blast: No Ban. Weird seeing this as it's basically Boomburst lite right? It has half the PP (easier stalling and it may even run out during a sweep), a bit less BP (still strong but this makes a difference on occasion with 2hkos and ohkos), and does not pass through subs. All of these factors actually make quite the impact on how strong it is, imo. There's a reason that Boomburst is used in BH over this move and it's because of these differences (BH is not an amazing comparison to STABmons, yeah, but it's an example okay).The only real advantage it has over Boomburst is not being blocked by Soundproof, but that's a really minor one.

The other things on the radar I'm abstaining from discussing about because I don't really have any solid opinions on them.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Here are my thoughts as someone who's played the meta a ton in the old stabmons (but not recently due to collage):

Shell Smash: BAN. It's fairly obvious that this move can set up a lot of stupid sweeps, so no explanation needed.
Belly Drum: BAN. See above reasoning.
Boomburst: BAN. It's a 140 BP move with quite a bit of PP for its power that can go through subs. No explanation really needed.
Techno Blast: No Ban. Weird seeing this as it's basically Boomburst lite right? It has half the PP (easier stalling and it may even run out during a sweep), a bit less BP (still strong but this makes a difference on occasion with 2hkos and ohkos), and does not pass through subs. All of these factors actually make quite the impact on how strong it is, imo. There's a reason that Boomburst is used in BH over this move and it's because of these differences (BH is not an amazing comparison to STABmons, yeah, but it's an example okay).The only real advantage it has over Boomburst is not being blocked by Soundproof, but that's a really minor one.

The other things on the radar I'm abstaining from discussing about because I don't really have any solid opinions on them.
saying technoblast isnt as bad because it cant hit subs and lacks pp is pretty false tbh. technoblast still completely destroys what it wants too, and just because something is slightly better then it, and can hit through subs, doesnt affect techno blast's power in any way. boomburst is meant to break down walls. technoblast is a EASY replacement even with 8pp. boomburst is used because it is ABLE to be used. if boomburst was banned, technoblast would be THE main move. and wouldnt alter the pokemons viability in ANY way(which is why some people like flint and me actually use it) that example is a bad example, because your relying on "boomburst is better" as the main argument when boomburst isn't even in the meta anymore.
 
The problem is normal types are totally op because of the insane amount of options they get. Want a good boosting move? Here's Shell Smash, a move any sweeper would die for. You can even have Belly Drum if you don't mind taking a risk. Want reliable recovery? Here's several variants of Recover and Wish. Want priority? Here's Extreme Speed, the best priority move in the game. Just want some powerful attacks? Here Boomburst, a move with 140 base power, perfect accuracy and NO DRAWBACKS WHATSOEVER. On the physical side there's Head Charge, Double-Edge with less recoil. And Judment, which can be any type you want.
 

wishes

blame it on u
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
i thought so too, until lovely kiss loppuny came along and 6-0ed me. honestly, belly drum is a problem because even offense has moments where its vunerable to setup. honestly, even when im prepared for belly drum, i get completely crapped on by it just because of one slight misplay/ he ran lovely kiss. .-.
... Oh... Lovely Kiss... Goddamnit.

Also, all of that is fixed with Normal Clause ;)
 
I'm not buying the "Normals are broken" thing. Normal-types are still held back by the fact that they are still Normal-types - a mediocre type both offensively and defensively. In fact, most of the things that are banned that get Normal-types moves have ways of completely surpassing Normal-types mediocracy - either by being a completely different type (Mega Altaria and Sylveon), getting a STAB + Ability combination that makes coverage basically trivial (Mega Lopunny's Scrappy and Fighting STAB), or simply just have absurd power and coverage to break even resists (Diggersby and P-Z). This mainly goes for the attacking moves, such as Boomburst. Hell I find Steel-types much more problematic, Shell Smash and Belly Drum aside.

Boomburst is something a lot of people are saying that is broken, but almost all of the really broken users of the move either aren't actually Normal-type (Sylveon and, to an extent, Mega Altaria) or find other way to subvert Normal-types drawback (P-Z has Adaptability, which basically gives it something akin to Tinted Lens). Outside of those three, there really aren't any broken Boomburst users. We have some very good users like Meloetta and Porygon2, but they aren't really broken in the slightest. I'm more inclined to believe that these Pokemon are the ones who broke Boomburst and not the other way around. It isn't like BH or other metas where Boomburst can be paired up with an -ate ability - it's almost always going to be a Normal-type move, which is much more manageable.

As for ExtremeSpeed, I also don't think that it's inherently broken. If we look at the Espeed users, the only one that really pops out as "broken" is M-Alt (which, again, changes the type of it), M-Lop (Who avoids the pitfall of Normal-type being mediocre by having Scrappy and Fighting STAB, giving it near perfect coverage with just its STABs), and Diggersby (who, in my mind, is very much on the borderline side of brokentown and is there because of its ridiculous raw power and coverage options). Diggersby is probably the most compelling argument for Espeed being broken, but even then Diggersby is a huge extreme due to its Huge Power. Outside of these there really isn't a "broken" Espeeder. Hell I'd argue that Extreme Speed helps keep set-up in check if anything, which is a good thing.

Of course, these points fall flat when combined with the absurd set-up moves known as Shell Smash and Belly Drum, as both of these moves push pass Normal-types weaknesses. However, if Shell Smash and Belly Drum are banned then I see no inclination that Boomburst and ExtremeSpeed should follow suite. Hell, I'd rather see Lovely Kiss be on the chopping block before Extreme Speed and Boomburst / Techno Blast.
 
Belly Drum: the only reason this is more dangerous is extremespeed. Get rid of espeed and lopunny is the only pokemon that gains bdrum that would consider keeping it.
 

G-Luke

Edgy Shit
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I personally agree to ban the set up moves rather than the attacks themselves. Shell Smash and Belly Drum NEED to go! They just push stuff past the breaking point, and I'm tired of Quag being on EVERY team.

I also want Shift Gear gone, insted of banning three or more Steel types for it. Geomancy is abit shaky, as really only two Fairies use it, and only Togekiss makes it broken.

I believe Boomburst shouldnt be banned due to it pushing only 3 Pokes past breaking point. (Slyveon, PoryZ and MAlt).
MAlt is broken without Boomburst, and Sylv and Pory are the only other things to break it.

Espeed. See above.

In light of this, banning of stuff should be like this: If a move breaks a ton of stuff (SS and BD), ban it instead of alot of stuff.
And if a few Pokes break a move, ban the few mons that break it.
 
Even tho the meta is brand-spanking new, I want to issue quick bans on moves so we can get this more user-friendly come the STABmons Open.

Right now I'm pretty set on banning Shell Smash, Belly Drum, and Boomburst (and by small extension, Techno Blast) to start.

  • Shell Smash - +2/+2/+2 is a ridiculously broken trade-off for the -1/-1 drops to defenses (often mitigated by a White Herb or Focus Sash.) The question regarding Shell Smash is not "why are you running it?" on your offensive Pokemon, but rather: "Why are you not?" It's too easy to exploit and breaks just about anything that wants to use it. What else needs saying?
  • Belly Drum - Belly Drum is fairly benign without Extreme Speed in most cases, but Extreme Speed is less benign by itself, hence why I'm picking Belly Drum over Extreme Speed to ban. Why not both? I still think revenge-killing tactics are too important to strip from the metagame, because even if we ban some setup moves, setup will be king. Similar to Shell Smash, losing 1/2 HP is not so bad considering you can shoot up to +6 in 1 turn. Sitrus Berry, HP-recovering attacks (mostly Drain Punch), Substitute, and a few other niche options help mitigate this trade-off. Overall the benefit is too good and answers the question above. "Why are you not using Shell Smash?" "Because I'm using Belly Drum instead."
  • Boomburst / Techno Blast - Where to start? 140 BP with no trade-offs (other than that Soundproof immunity.) Bypasses Substitutes. 16 PP. 100% accuracy. Pretty much anything that wants to run this move is broken with it. (Most certainly it's broken on Porygon-Z, Sylveon, and Mega Altaria. Questionably broken on Meloetta [unless you factor in Shell Smash, then it definitely is.]) At least other high BP moves have trade-offs, such as V-creates stat drops or Water Spout's diminishing returns. Now with Techno Blast, 120 BP is not necessarily so bad on its own, but it has perfect accuracy, so again, no trade-offs other than only 8 PP I guess. PZ, Sylveon, and Mega Altaria can still do huge damage with the move, and as such, it should go with Boomburst.
Things on the radar: Shift Gear, Dark Void, and Geomancy.
All Hail Eevee General. Of the moves on the radar, Dark Void is the only one that worries me. The other two are completely mitigated by a Sableye Topsy-Turvy (centralising, much?)

Techno Blast doesn't have the spam appeal that Boomburst does. I don't think that should be banned at all. I'd lean towards a Judgment ban over a Techno Blast ban, simply due to the high power free coverage move it provides.
 

G-Luke

Edgy Shit
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Oh, I also believe D.Void should be banned, since it makes Sable and Weavile that much harder to face.

Nah, Judgment gives normal special attackers the ability to hit stuff that would overwise wall it. And it forces you to run a Plate instead of a more conventional item, plus Normal special attackers are so rare baring eeveelutions, so its nothing to worry about.
 
Oh, I also believe D.Void should be banned, since it makes Sable and Weavile that much harder to face.

Nah, Judgment gives normal special attackers the ability to hit stuff that would overwise wall it. And it forces you to run a Plate instead of a more conventional item, plus Normal special attackers are so rare baring eeveelutions, so its nothing to worry about.
Surrounding Judgment, that's a fair point, yeah. I'm yet to see a Dark Void Weavile and, for that matter, a Weavile in general. I wouldn't ban the move; I'd lean towards a Sableye ban simply because of how good it is at shutting down set-up sweepers, gaining momentum and putting mons to sleep using Topsy-Turvy, Parting Shot and Dark Void, respectively.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
I'm in favor of all the move bans we've seen so far, but let's not be hasty about them. Meanwhile, I think it's important that we still ban individual pokemon when the pokemon break the moves. Rather than thinking about this like "moves are the only problem", there are certain mons, like Mega Alt, that are borderline unsolvable without destroying the metagame. We can't ban head smash/dragon ascent for mega aero to stay in the tier, so if it ends up broken, we would have to ban aerodactylite, not the other way around. I just wanted to point this out, because I have a feeling that people are going to get caught up in banning moves and forget that all OMs that ban additions will still ban mons as well.
 
This just goes back to square one. I think the other change made STABmons for the most part a lot more stable. Now, it'll just be set-up crazy, which is what was fixed earlier.
 
Belly Drum: the only reason this is more dangerous is extremespeed. Get rid of espeed and lopunny is the only pokemon that gains bdrum that would consider keeping it.
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 441-520 (147.4 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Quick Attack does, of course, fail to push past other priority, but that just brings us to "is a 25% cut in firepower worth pushing past enemy priority?" because Feint is also a Normal type move.

You don't need Extreme Speed for Belly Drum to open up priority sweeps. It helps, obviously, being twice as hard hitting and able to push past most other priority moves effortlessly, but Quick Attack Belly Drum can still be used to completely destroy offensive teams given one turn to setup. It should come as no surprise that this OHKOs Sableye by a large margin, so it's not like Topsy-Turvy is going to save you. Even if, for some ungodly reason, Trick Room is up so Sableye gets the advantage, we again return to Feint.

This can be replaced with the likes of Kangaskhan's Scrappy attack to achieve the same basic idea even assuming a Mega Altaria ban.

Surrounding Judgment, that's a fair point, yeah. I'm yet to see a Dark Void Weavile and, for that matter, a Weavile in general. I wouldn't ban the move; I'd lean towards a Sableye ban simply because of how good it is at shutting down set-up sweepers, gaining momentum and putting mons to sleep using Topsy-Turvy, Parting Shot and Dark Void, respectively.
Seen Dark Void Weavile, seen Weavile in general, loathe the damn thing. It can completely destroy Physical walls that expect to stall it indefinitely, and it has native access to Swords Dance. All it needs is Dark STAB+Ice STAB to push through most of the meta, too, so the fact that Dark Void+Swords Dance limits it to two attacks doesn't doom the build. It's only real flaw is being afraid of priority.

I think Shell Smash deserves a ban too, but not Belly Drum. Belly Drum is really hard to set up versus offense, +6 Extreme Speed is stopped by Mega Metagross, and it is useless against Quagsire / Clefable. Belly Drum is good, but not overwhelming or centralizing to the point of being banned. I'm not in favor of banning Boomburst if Shell Smash is; but I'd rather both be banned it doesn't matter. I feel that Boomburst + Shell Smash is the problem, but not Boomburst itself. Can we start with just Shift Gear + Shell Smash banned and I guess Belly Drum if other people want, and then see how good Boomburst is?
The problem is that Offense dies if it slips up and lets a Belly Drum get going. Stall has a lot more tools for blunting/stopping a Belly Drum sweep. Offense is leaning almost entirely on the offensive pressure preventing a Belly Drum from happening.

I do agree that banning Boomburst seems a bit premature, given how few Pokemon actually run it and how one of them -Mega Altaria- is liable to be broken regardless of the exact banlist.

All Hail Eevee General. Of the moves on the radar, Dark Void is the only one that worries me. The other two are completely mitigated by a Sableye Topsy-Turvy (centralising, much?)
Anything that has Geomancy is something Sableye can't safely switch in for fear of exploding to a Moon Blast.

Shift Gear is more debateable.

(P-Z has Adaptability, which basically gives it something akin to Tinted Lens).
I largely agree with your post, but a 33% boost to damage is not comparable to a 100% boost to damage.
 
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 441-520 (147.4 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Quick Attack does, of course, fail to push past other priority, but that just brings us to "is a 25% cut in firepower worth pushing past enemy priority?" because Feint is also a Normal type move.

You don't need Extreme Speed for Belly Drum to open up priority sweeps. It helps, obviously, being twice as hard hitting and able to push past most other priority moves effortlessly, but Quick Attack Belly Drum can still be used to completely destroy offensive teams given one turn to setup. It should come as no surprise that this OHKOs Sableye by a large margin, so it's not like Topsy-Turvy is going to save you. Even if, for some ungodly reason, Trick Room is up so Sableye gets the advantage, we again return to Feint.

This can be replaced with the likes of Kangaskhan's Scrappy attack to achieve the same basic idea even assuming a Mega Altaria ban.



Seen Dark Void Weavile, seen Weavile in general, loathe the damn thing. It can completely destroy Physical walls that expect to stall it indefinitely, and it has native access to Swords Dance. All it needs is Dark STAB+Ice STAB to push through most of the meta, too, so the fact that Dark Void+Swords Dance limits it to two attacks doesn't doom the build. It's only real flaw is being afraid of priority.



The problem is that Offense dies if it slips up and lets a Belly Drum get going. Stall has a lot more tools for blunting/stopping a Belly Drum sweep. Offense is leaning almost entirely on the offensive pressure preventing a Belly Drum from happening.

I do agree that banning Boomburst seems a bit premature, given how few Pokemon actually run it and how one of them -Mega Altaria- is liable to be broken regardless of the exact banlist.



Anything that has Geomancy is something Sableye can't safely switch in for fear of exploding to a Moon Blast.

Shift Gear is more debateable.



I largely agree with your post, but a 33% boost to damage is not comparable to a 100% boost to damage.
I didn't include Altaria because I forgot we currently have an ou banlist.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top