Gen 1 Stadium/RBY Differences Collection for Simulator Implementation (help needed)

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Along with its second gen twin this project aims to pave the way for future implementation of older generations on current simulators. We are specifically looking for differences between GSC and Stadium / RBY.

Both:

Data changes:
  • Remove of all Pokemon and Moves not obtainable in the first generation and evolutionary links with them.
  • Remove all items.
  • Modify learnsets. Perhaps add the tradeback only moves under a different learn method, and make a way to ban them from some ladders.
Global mechanic changes:
  • Recombine the Special Attack and Special Defense stats.
  • Remove Shinys.
  • Remove Dark and Steel types (including Magnemite and Magneton's secondary type).
  • Change type chart:
  • Bug should be super effective against Poison, Poison should be super effective against Bug, Bug should be neutral against Ghost, Psychic should be immune to Ghost, and Ice should be neutral to Fire.
  • Remove Genders.
  • Remove Happiness (Only Yellow Pikachu uses it, and Return/Frustration do not exist.).
  • Critical hits ignore all stat boosts/drops, not just drops on the attacker and boosts on the defender.
  • Critical hit rate is calculated differently.
  • Stats are capped at 999.
A Pokemon may not attack on the turn it wakes from sleep (source, could do with confirmation).

Simple move changes (e.g. base power, accuracy):

  • Gust, Sand-Attack, Karate Chop, and Bite should be Normal type moves.
  • Dig has 100 Base Power.
  • Double Edge has 100 Base Power.
  • Explosion has 170 Base Power.
  • SelfDestruct has 130 Base Power.
  • Wing Attack has 35 Base Power.
  • Blizzard has 89.5% Accuracy.
  • Rock Throw has 65% Accuracy.

Stadium Only:

  • Sleep lasts 1-3 turns.
  • If a Pokémon defeats an opposing Pokémon with a recoil move, the Attacker does not suffer recoil damage.
  • Wrap is complicated. It ends when the either Pokemon switches out, and negates the recharge turn of Hyper Beam only if successful. Details here.
  • Substitute blocks the effects of Absorb, Dream Eater, Leech Life, Leech Seed, Mega Drain, and all status ailments inflicted by the opponent.
  • After a move which causes self-inflicted confusion (e.g. Thrash) ends, the game will display a message stating that the target is confused.
RBY Only:

  • If a Pokémon defeats an opposing Pokémon with a recoil move, the attacker suffers recoil damage.
  • An immobilized Pokémon cannot select an attack.
  • Wrap continues if the target is switched out.
  • When a paralyzed Pokémon's Speed is modified, its Speed reduction is nullified.
  • After a move which causes self-inflicted confusion (e.g. Thrash) ends, the game will not display a message stating that the target is confused.
  • Recovery moves fail when the difference between a Pokémon's current and maximum HP is 255 or 511.
  • If Hyper Beam KOs a foe, breaks a Substitute, or misses the recharge turn is skipped.
  • A Substitute will not block status ailments except poison. It also blocks confusion moves such as Confuse Ray and stat reduction moves such as Screech. Substitute will block attacks' secondary effects (ex: Body Slam can't paralyze if it hits a Substitute, even if it breaks) except for secondary confusion. Substitute will not block the effect of partial trapping moves. A Substitute will also be the recipient of self-inflicted confusion damage. Lastly, HP draining attacks used on a Substitute will not drain HP when breaking the Substitute. If a Pokémon breaks a Substitute with Explosion or Selfdestruct, it will not faint, though its picture will no longer be visible until it switches out or uses Substitute. If a Pokémon breaks a Substitute with a recoil move, it will not take any recoil damage. Substitute will not alter the execution of Bide, Counter, Disable, Haze, Leech Seed, Super Fang, Transform, or partial trapping moves, and it will not absorb crash damage, recoil damage, or recurrent damage. However, a Substitute will absorb self-inflicted confusion damage and prevent the user from flinching. If the user's current HP is less than 25% (rounded down) of its maximum HP, it will be too weak to make a Substitute. If the user's current HP is exactly equal to 25% (rounded down) of its maximum HP, it will faint upon creating the Substitute.
  • Focus Energy will not only not make a Pokémon's critical hit ratio higher, it will quarter it instead.
Probably RBY:
Effectiveness message oddities.

If you want to support the adoption of older generations by active simulators, this is the best way you can help out! Post differences you can find here, and please link to sources wherever possible. Additionally, I am aware of the Important RBY Differences guide on Smogon and will be adding things from there whenever I can confirm whether something applies to Stadium too or just to th Carts. Please avoid posting things from there unless you can confirm whether the difference appears in Stadium.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
It covers the most important bits, but the chances are there will have been a few things which slipped through the net. And I need to know which differences are Cart only/which are in stadium.
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Stadium Only

Game Mechanic Changes
Pokémon Stadium features a number of changes to the battle system. Many of these fix glitches present in the first generation games.[1] [2]
General changes include:
The duration of sleep is reduced to 1-3 turns.
If a Pokémon defeats an opposing Pokémon with a recoil move, the Pokémon does not suffer recoil damage.
An immobilized Pokémon can still select an attack.
Consecutive moves such as Wrap end when the target switches out.
All status ailments and HP-draining moves have no effect against a Substitute.
If a Pokémon is fully paralyzed during the invulnerable turn of Dig or Fly, the move resets.
When a paralyzed Pokémon's Speed is modified, its Speed reduction is no longer nullified.
After a move which causes self-inflicted confusion (e.g. Thrash) ends, the game will display a message stating that the target is confused.
The variable that determines the last damage dealt is reset whenever a Pokémon switches, is fully paralyzed, or uses a two-turn attack.
Recovery moves no longer fail when the difference between a Pokémon's current and maximum HP is 255 or 511.

(yes I copied Synre's post from PR)
 
Is your list is meant to be exhaustive or if you're only putting in the quieter changes? You're missing the different Hyper Beam mechanics in Stadium vs. RBY. IIRC, in RBY a missed Hyper Beam or a Hyper Beam that OHKOs requires no recharge; they both require recharge in Stadium.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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The list should ideally include all differences between Gen 1 and 2, specifying the Stadium and Cart mechanics. I've not gone through the RBY Diffs guide and sorted the information there into RBY and Stadium yet, and will do so when I get a chance. I will add that.
 

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
When it comes to boosting moves, stats are capped at 999 unlike in ADV and beyond.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Are they actually capped at 999, capped at 1024, or roll over to 0 at either of those numbers?

Edit: You clarified in the other topic, editing OP.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
In RBY...
Dig has 100 Base Power.
Double Edge has 100 Base Power.
Explosion has 170 Base Power.
SelfDestruct has 130 Base Power.
Wing Attack has 35 Base Power.
Blizzard has 89.5% Accuracy.
Rock Throw has 65% Accuracy.

Power Reference. Accuracy Reference.

EDIT: Nevermind, it mentions it in the article...
 
Hm, here's something I've not seen mentioned: the game displays odd messages for nfe and possible se damage when dual typings are used. For instance, on my Yellow cartridge, when my Venusaur uses Razor Leaf (a Grass move) against a Tentacool (a Water/Poison type) the game displays the "It's not very effective" message, even though it should be doing neutral damage. I think the same thing happened with enemy Pokémon using Poison move on my Venusaur, and my Pikachu using electric moves on Lance's Dragonite - the "not very effective" message displayed in all cases. I haven't calculated to see if it's actually the move doing less damage or if the only difference is the message displayed, though. According to a website I found here:
http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/compendium/typechart.htm
They were getting "It's super effective!" messages from the same situation, Venusaur using grass moves on Tentacool, but according to their research it was still doing 1 times damage. I don't know if this is a difference between RB and Y, or if the specific move used makes a difference, or what... (Though it does go some way towards explaining why I've always been so confused about how Grass and Poison interact. It's the game showing the wrong message!)
 
Counter continues to work until the foe uses a PP (or the user faints/switches).

Thus, if the foe uses Stomp on you, you can use Counter the next turn, and the next, and the next, as long as the foe either a) fully paralyzes, b) switches, c) is asleep, d) wakes up, f) is frozen, g) recharges, h) hurts itself in confusion, i) flinches, j) takes in sunlight, k) lowers its head, l) is glowing, m) gathers a whirlwind, or n) faints.

Counter will also work on the turn the opponent flies up high or digs down low, although it will miss and be reset upon the descent/ascent of the foe. However, if the foe fully paralyzes or hurts itself in confusion on the turn it is supposed to descend/ascend, the Counter will not be reset.

The key is that Counter works until the foe uses a PP. So Rest, Recover, Toxic, Psychic, and Lick will all reset the Counter. Notice I said using Rest resets Counter. However, the act of sleeping does not reset the counter (if you manage to get a sleeping pokemon out and then have it try to sleep).

The Counter user can use other moves, including Rest and Fly, and then use Counter again later (as long as the Counter has still not been reset).

Counter will always go second, however. Counter can be countered. If both pokemon use Counter, both Counters will fail.
 
When the attack of a pokemon who has been burned is modified (Growl/Meditate/etc), the attack reduction from burn disappears (similar to the Paralysis speed fall).

Also, while Rest does heal paralysis/burn (and poison), it does not correct the speed/attack fall. However, the speed/attack fall is removed upon switching out.

Explosion and SelfDestruct still half the defense of the foe...
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
In case coyotte is going to implement tradebacks:-

Venusaur – Rock Throw
Fearow – Sonicboom
Raichu – Dizzy Punch, Petal Dance, Sing
Nidoqueen – Lovely Kiss
Nidoking – Lovely Kiss
Clefable – Petal Dance, Swift
Wigglytuff - Petal Dance
Vileplume – Leech Seed
Golduck – Petal Dance, Tri Attack
Poliwrath – Growth, Lovely Kiss
Machamp – Thrash
Victreebel – Lovely Kiss
Tentacruel – Confuse Ray
Rapidash – Low Kick
Magneton – Agility
Farfetch’d – Fury Cutter
Dodrio – Low Kick
Onix – Sharpen
Hypno – Amnesia
Electrode – Agility
Marowak – Fury Attack
Hitmonlee – Dizzy Punch
Hitmonchan – Dizzy Punch
Lickitung – DoubleSlap
Seadra – Haze
Seaking – Swords Dance
Scyther – Sonicboom
Jynx – Petal Dance
Electabuzz – Dizzy Punch(can be obtained via Odd Egg as well)
Pinsir – Rock Throw, Sweet Kiss
Tauros – Quick Attack
Gyarados – Bubble
Lapras – Bite
Flareon – Growth
Vaporeon – Growth
Jolteon – Growth
Porygon – Barrier
Omastar – Rock Throw
Kabutops – Rock Throw
Aerodactyl – Rock Throw
Snorlax – Lovely Kiss, Splash
Dragonite – Hydro Pump


I'd just like to suggest that you create special classes for "Gen 2 NYPC", "Gen 2 Egg" and "Gen 2 Level", so that you can carry over restrictions from implementation of Generation 2 to when you implement Generation 1.

Venusaur – Light Screen, Petal Dance, Razor Wind, Skull Bash
Charizard – Bite, Rock Slide
Blastoise – Confusion, Haze, Mist
Raticate – Bite, Counter, Fury Swipes, Screech
Fearow – Quick Attack, Tri Attack
Raichu – DoubleSlap
Sandslash – Counter
Nidoqueen – Disable, Focus Energy, Supersonic
Nidoking – Amnesia, Confusion, Disable, Supersonic
Clefable – Amnesia, Splash
Ninetales – Disable, Hypnosis
Golbat – Gust, Quick Attack
Vileplume – Razor Leaf
Parasect – Counter, Light Screen, Psybeam, Screech
Venomoth – Screech
Dugtrio – Screech
Persian – Amnesia, Hypnosis
Golduck – Hypnosis, Light Screen, Psybeam, Psychic
Primeape – Meditate
Arcanine – Fire Spin, Thrash
Poliwrath – Haze, Mist, Splash
Alakazam – Barrier, Light Screen
Machamp – Light Screen, Meditate, Rolling Kick
Victreebel – Leech Life
Tentacruel – Aurora Beam, Haze
Rapidash – Double Kick, Hypnosis, Quick Attack, Thrash
Slowbro – Stomp
Magneton – Gust, Mirror Move, Quick Attack
Dodrio – Haze, Quick Attack, Supersonic
Dewgong – Disable, Lick, Peck, Slam
Muk – Haze, Lick
Cloyster – Barrier, Screech
Gengar – Haze
Hypno – Barrier, Light Screen
Kingler – Amnesia, Dig, Haze, Slam
Marowak – Rock Slide, Screech, Swords Dance
Hitmonchan – Hi Jump Kick
Weezing – Psybeam, Psywave, Screech
Rhydon – Thrash
Tangela – Amnesia, Confusion, Reflect
Kangaskhan – Disable, Focus Energy, Stomp
Seadra – Aurora Beam, Disable, Dragon Rage, Splash
Seaking – Haze, Hydro Pump, Psybeam
Mr. Mime – Hypnosis
Scyther – Counter, Light Screen, Razor Wind
Jynx – Meditate, Sing
Electabuzz – Barrier, Karate Chop, Meditate, Rolling Kick
Magmar – Barrier, Karate Chop, Screech
Pinsir – Rock Throw
Lapras – Aurora Beam
Omastar – Aurora Beam, Slam, Haze, Supersonic
Kabutops – Aurora Beam, Dig
Snorlax – Lick
Dragonite – Haze, Light Screen, Mist, Supersonic


Above list does not include pre-evos, so include during implementation.

Nidoqueen – Flamethrower
Nidoking – Flamethrower
Machop – Flamethrower
Machoke – Flamethrower
Machamp – Flamethrower
Geodude – Flamethrower
Graveler – Flamethrower
Golem – Flamethrower
Slowbro – Flamethrower
Muk – Flamethrower
Cubone – Flamethrower
Marowak – Flamethrower
Lickitung – Flamethrower
Koffing – Flamethrower
Weezing – Flamethrower
Rhyhorn – Flamethrower
Rhydon – Flamethrower
Chansey – Flamethrower
Kangaskhan – Flamethrower
Tauros – Flamethrower
Gyarados – Flamethrower
Aerodactyl – Flamethrower
Snorlax – Flamethrower
Dratini – Flamethrower
Dragonair – Flamethrower
Dragonite – Flamethrower
 
I think that if Double-Edge (or any other recoil move) attacks a Sub, the user will just lose 1 HP but I don't know for sure.

And Blizzard acc. is 90% (or 90 *255 / 256) rather than 89'5, isn't it?

I think that the 1/256 glitch is also applied to secondary effects like Blizzard freezing, Psychic spc falling etc.
 
This page is quite useful, in case you haven't already noted some of the changes from it + a page by IIMarckus on how different damage effects work here.

RE: Leech Seed glitch, I added it to Bulbapedia's list of minor glitches if you want a little clarification. Though I can't test to see if it works on Stadium unfortunately.

It's exploitable on Pokémon Yellow and it's basically that Leech Seed and Toxic use the same damage algorithm: N * max(1, int(0.0625*MaxHP)). N increases every turn under Toxic so Leech Seed damage increases every turn just like Toxic if the Pokémon is badly poisoned.

Also, if the battle is a draw the relevant victory theme is played even though you've technically lost. This doesn't happen in Generation II.

There's also the binding move 'Fire Spin' glitch which SloshedMail reported on the Glitch City Laboratories forum. A battle goes out of synch if you Mirror Move something like Fire Spin, have it hit and then have the enemy Pokémon switch to a Pokémon which will get knocked out by the move in one hit as the attack continues.

Edit: Almost forgot - if you manage to get a stat high enough e.g. 999 Special though also have Reflect/Light Screen up you can exceed the 999 cap and possibly the absolute limit of 1023, possibly causing the stat to be lower (modulo 1024). Does not occur in Stadium because of a higher limit.
 

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
According to Azure's ancient records, that is indeed the case.

Azure Heights said:
http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/attacks/comp/statmods.htm

Reflect and Light Screen

Reflect doubles the current value of the D variable in the Battle Damage Formula, if the incoming attack is physical in nature. Light Screen has the same effect, but is only helpful against special attacks. However, this is not to say that these moves double the statistic on which D is based: if this were the case, Light Screen would increase a Pokémon's offensive capacity with Special attacks, but this does not occur.

...

Reflect and Light Screen can interact with other defensive moves in surprising ways if the value of D becomes very high. Consider the following examples, in which a cheating device was used to teach the Pokémon moves they could not ordinarily learn:

Example 1. A Mewtwo used Amnesia twice, after which its Special was 999. A second Mewtwo used Surf against the first, and damage was averaged over 10 trials. The Amnesia'd Mewtwo then used Light Screen, and another 10 trials of Surf were done. Average damage was virtually identical!

Example 2. A Golbat with a Special of 181 was taught Amnesia and Light Screen, and used them to defend against a Mew using Surf. Without the benefit of either move, Golbat took an average of 100 HP of damage from Surf (all averages are approximate, as only 4 to 6 trials were done in each case). After one use of either Amnesia or LS, average damage was about 60 points. After both moves were used (in either order), average damage was about 30 points. So far, so good. However, after two uses of Amnesia were combined with LS (again, the order did not matter), average damage was 375 points! Finally, after three uses of Amnesia were combined with LS, average damage was about 52 points.

The explanation for this appears to be that D has a maximum value of 1023 (2^10-1, or 3FF in hexadecimal). When it reaches 1024 (2^10, or 400 in hex), it "rolls over", so that 1024 is equal to 1 for purposes of calculating damage. This theory is consistent with the preceding examples. When the Mewtwo with 999 Special used Light Screen, the D variable against special attacks should have become 1998. If the value resets to 1 after 1023, however, the actual value of D would have been 975 (1998 - 1023): nearly the same as what it was without the use of Light Screen.

Meanwhile, Golbat's problems started when LS was combined with two uses of Amnesia. This would result in a D of 1086 (181 x 3 x 2), but the 375 points of damage is explained if the rollover reduced D to 63 (1086-1023): a fraction of his normal, un-"boosted" Special. A third use of Amnesia (with LS still in place) would result in a D of 425 (1448 - 1023), explaining the damage reduction that was found in the test.
 
I'll list some of the other changes from here and here for quick viewing:


  • A frozen Pokémon which hasn't recharged from Hyper Beam will have the FRZ status eliminated by Haze.
  • Selfdestruct/Explosion will not take down the user if it breaks a substitute, though the user's picture disappears regardless.
  • Focus energy: "No effect if user is faster than opponent. If user is slower, Critical Hit ratio goes to 0/511"
  • Any recovery move fails if HP is a multiple of 255 or 511.
  • Rest does not reset the N value of toxic.
  • Burns also use the Leech Seed/Toxic algorithm (needs verifying but in theory resting after being badly poisoned and getting a Burn would make the Burns do more because of the higher N value).
  • Stadium allows a new move to be used on a switch into Bind/Wrap/Fire Spin/Clamp.
There was also a PP underflow glitch, though I don't remember much about it. Tombstoner made an article about it when Glitch City Laboratories Wiki used to be online, maybe you could ask him about that, but the site has been down for maintenance since December.

P.S I'm looking forward for this future implementation. I've been trying to do battles against different glitch Pokémon, though its been a little impractical and frustrating when running into enemy glitch Pokémon which freeze the game on the opponent's side. (incomplete, tentative glitch Pokémon by 'Base Stat tier') + archived Glitch Dex

Are Smogon considering adding glitch Pokémon to this simulator, because I might be able to help out a little bit (I'll ask the people at GCL who made the Glitch Dex, recorded some of the cries and found the base stats if they want this to happen too).
 
if you get Fully paralyzed in the middle of fly/dig you are rendered invulnerable to all moves except swift for the rest of the battle unless you use dig/fly again.

i don't know if this is the case in stadium 1 though.
 

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