Data State of the Game - 5/11/2011 (UPDATE ON 5/16/2011)

[DarkSlay]

Okay, time for a few responses.

In regards to #1:

I know it's early guys, but the main point of the question was to determine how RP life has changed and if we should continue creating RP's in the time frame we have been. Focus on things like: Should we eventually stop making RP's? What should be considered an "established RP"?

About the Dojo and it lacking RP: in truth, the Dojo kind of plays a much different role than the other RP's. The Dojo functions also as a general question thread, which is impossible to RP, really. If we started to RP seriously for every post, it will either get rushed or questions would never get answered clearly. So, the only RP'able thing is refereeing and challengers asking for battles. Other RP's have more chances to show off their RP skills because they focus more on specific assets, unlike the general-ness of the Dojo.

In regards to #3:

I'm not sure where I stand on this side myself at the moment. I feel like more discussion is needed before we make a decision. Therefore, let's focus on the following questions: How much more powerful will Rank 6 and above Pokemon become if we add 1.5 damage per rank instead of 1? Are there instances where this gives too much of an advantage? (NOTE: An advantage itself is fine. We're looking for whether this change will make the game too unbalanced.)

In regards to #4:

I think the main issue with this case is the fact that before considering definition, moves were hitting every single Pokemon on one side for the same damage. This was because there is no game mechanic to match this with. Making the base power lower would be okay, but this does nothing to address self-using moves such as Light Screen and Reflect. Having a team of eight under Reflect for five rounds is a bit unbalanced. Therefore, I feel like we should be focusing on more or less the amount of targets these moves affect. I have no problem keeping Rock Slide as a two-target move (like it is in-game) and Surf perhaps a three-target move (on both sides). The targets on the user's side would be picked at random. The base powers wouldn't be lowered, but it at least matches some in-game specifications. Reflect and Light Screen should also be capped to at least a minimum of three specific targets.

In regards to #5:

Guys, stop taking this question personally. :P I'm not calling out referees who have made mistakes before in the past. I am referring to referees who constantly make huge, gaping mistakes in their play, as well as constant errors. It's not a bad thing, but this results from a lack of knowledge. I think it's a good idea to implement some sort of mentor program for referees to go into before they become official. This will not apply to all referees (some of us actually were once "apprentices" and became official), but we will reach out to those who need assistance. It's not meant to be a punishment, it's meant to be a learning process.

In regards to #6:

Thanks for the support, guys. I will be coming up with a set of rules and post them shortly, to get public feedback on.

In regards to #7:

I personally see combos as one action that is 100% reliant on the two moves. Without the use of a non-attacking move, the combo would not exist. If a move prevents the use of a non-attacking move, as an extension, the combo should not exist. However, I do think we've boiled down this question to something else that might give us the answer: Should we treat combo moves as individually defined moves, or should they be combinations of two moves and be defined as those two moves? For example, if I combine Mud Sport and Crush Claw, does that become one whole attacking move completely separate from the combination as a result, or is it simply just the combination of a physical and non-attacking move?

 

[Tortferngatr]

...Just realized something.

Blissey would have 160 HP under the new system, assuming this transfers over to HP.

Oh my.

 

[Gerard]

... Blissey retains the defense of a wet napkin

Still, why not to create a guide with crear guideliness to follow in moves combos and the rules that every combo have to follow if it wants to be succesfull, since many combos seem ok, but other are just bizarre (maybe a list of pre-approved combos)

 

[Acklow]

Darkslay, I think that if we were to stop making RPs, it would have to be at a time in which they would be MUCH MORE developed than they are now, not to mention more numerous. I feel that once we hit a number of RPs that is relative to the number of active RP players, then we should stop doing so. Perhaps we could say around 13 RPs should open at this time, since there are 130 Players in CAP ASB. This is what I think in terms of where we should stop. Also, an established RP would be one that has had enough time to settle down and attract a decent crowd. Let's assume that an RP is unable to do so, well then we would scrap it within two or three weeks of its inception in order to replace it with a better or more attractive idea. In this way, we can keep players excited and the "monotony" of RPing won't become a possibility. This also would be a good reason to keep the number limited so that if your RP is sitting in the queue, then eventually you know that it'll be implemented (assuming it can become a success). Given time, of course, this will become apparent.

This is all under the assumption that we would follow through with that kind of system...

 

[Tortferngatr]

... Blissey retains the defense of a wet napkin

Still, why not to create a guide with crear guideliness to follow in moves combos and the rules that every combo have to follow if it wants to be succesfull, since many combos seem ok, but other are just bizarre (maybe a list of pre-approved combos)

...You realize that that's over a dozen thousand combinations, right?

(and that Blissey can run a Bold nature to help offset that.)

 

[Deck Knight]

I have come up with a compromise on stats:

Because of the prevalence of Rank 5 Pokemon that still want to boost their strongest stat, I say we shift it so that Ranks 0-6 are work 1.5 points, while Ranks 7 and up have the 1 point bonus.

This will not change HP in the slightest. HP cannot be boosted by natures in-game, so it doesn't apply here.

This keeps items like Choice Band and such balanced, but allows free reign on natures for the overwhelming majority of Pokemon. In essence it makes 161 the new "overwhelming."

Stealing from an old Dusk post:

Also, while the difference "may only be 1", it equates to 10 over 10 attacks, and more over more. This adds up incredulously fast. Pokemon like Rampardos can smash with an attack for 26 damage a hit right now against a normal rank 3 Def Pokemon before weakness and resistance is even considered or item effects: (15 [BP] + 3 [STAB] + (8-3)x1.5 [Stat Diff]) = 25.5 ~ 26. Consider this with a Choice Band: (15 [BP] + 3 [STAB] + (12-3)x1.5 [Stat Diff]) = 31.5 ~ 32. That's a neutral hit. Now consider it hitting 2x super effectively just for lols: 31.5 x 1.5 = 47. That's a 2HKO on a huge number of Pokemon. Period, and even if they pack Leftovers.

Let's take a look at how that changes with these reductions:
Hit: (15 [BP] + 3 [STAB] + (5-3)x1.5 [Stat Diff] + (8-5)X1 [>5 Stat Diff]) = 24 ~ 24
CB Hit: (15 [BP] + 3 [STAB] + (5-3)x1.5 [Stat Diff] + (12-5)X1 [>5 Stat Diff]) = 28
SE CB Hit: 28 x 1.5 = 42

This would change it to:

Hit: (15 [BP] + 3 [STAB] + (6-3)x1.5 [Stat Diff] + (8-6)X1 [>5 Stat Diff]) = 24.5 ~ 24.5 (25)
CB Hit: (15 [BP] + 3 [STAB] + (6-3)x1.5 [Stat Diff] + (12-6)X1 [>5 Stat Diff]) = 28.5 (29)
SE CB Hit: 28.5 x 1.5 = 42.75 (43)

Which keeps the items balanced while allowed the new, larger number of Rank 5 Pokemon to get full benefits from boosting their strongest stat. It's essentially a .5 damage pickup on every attack. A minor change, but one that makes it equally worthwhile to boost a Rank 5 stat as any other.

Combinations and Taunt:

Taunt got many complaints for being OP. My line of thinking is that a supporting move used in an offensive combo should get through Taunt, while a fully supportive combo (few as they are) should be blocked. It's one of the more interesting ways to access physical Ground type attacks that aren't dependent on seismic-prone arenas, and getting a boost with a type advantage is one of the few reasons to use a combo instead of two separate moves.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Ok, got permission from DarkSlay to post this reply, so let me see if I can fo this well enough in a logical light.

To the question as to whether or not combos are individually defined moves, I believe the answer is yes. As I can order "combo" as a command in Deck's statements and as of the last SotG, It would only make sense that an action is a singular attack. If it's not, then some nasty technicalities come to play that are easily bypassed by just making it a singular action, like we did. If it is a singular action, it could naturally be shut down if any part is shut down like a normal attack or command. For instance, if a Pokemon has the ability to create a flamethrower, he can't if he doesent have oxygen. This would be an example of one setback causing a move to fail. If combos are also singular, any part failing should cause the entire move to fail. The other idea, saying that one move can still work, would be admitting that you are just using two attacks in one action without it being meshed into the combo action command thing that is legal in the rules and avoids my criticisms as such. If we admit that is merely two actions thrown together (the principle that would allow part or the combo to continue), then it is violating the proper method of performing a combo as implied by the way it is ordered and it's definition.

tl;dr shutting down part of the combo should shut the combo down, as it is a singular action

 

[Deck Knight]

Also a few more things to clarify/codify:

Freeze:

Freeze does not completely disable a Pokemon. Freeze is fairly comparable to burn in that a frozen body part is numb and cannot be used effectively. I recommend changing the description from:

Freeze: Totally Freezing a Pokemon is very difficult, however freezing individual parts of an opponent with an attack like Ice Beam is common. Ice frozen to body parts can be broken be strong enough impacts or high amounts of heat, but a fully frozen Pokemon is incapacitated unless they can break out of it with one of their moves.

to

Freeze: Totally Freezing a Pokemon is very difficult, however freezing individual parts of an opponent with an attack like Ice Beam is common. Ice frozen to body parts can be broken be strong enough impacts or high amounts of heat, but a fully frozen Pokemon is incapacitated unless they can break out of it with one of their moves. Freeze has two levels:

Partial Freeze: A Partial Freeze is the freezing of one particular body part. That body part will be severely encumbered, and will be unable to issue most kinds of attacks. Partial Freeze is brought on by every Ice move except Blizzard. Larger Pokemon are more likely to be partially frozen than smaller ones. Tri Attack can only cause Partial Freeze.

Full Freeze: A Full Freeze is the freezing of the entirety of the Pokemon's Body. With the exception of a few attacks like Flame Wheel and other full body Fire-type attacks, when a Pokemon is Fully Frozen only an opponent's attack will be able to free it, or it will have to wait two (2) actions to thaw. Smaller Pokemon are much easier to fully freeze than larger ones. Full Freeze is only brought on by Blizzard, however successive Ice Beams can have the same effect. In Hail, all Ice Attacks with the freeze effect will cause Full Freeze.

Consecutive Moves Clarification:

Consecutive Moves do cross over rounds. If the first action this round is the same as the last action in the previous round, the Pokemon will incur the consecutive moves penalty.

Since there has apparently been some confusion, allow me to illustrate. If this were not true, then the following becomes a very viable series of actions:

Round 1: Ember ~ Flamethrower ~ Flamethrower

Round 2: Flamethrower ~ Flamethrower ~ Ember.

Now to anyone observing, Flamethrower was used consecutively four times. However under what is supposedly the previous understanding, only the second Flamethrower in each round would suffer the penalty, meaning the series as a whole only suffers from 8 additional energy. It should suffer a 24 energy penalty (NP + 4 + 8 + 12 = 24).

If you want to do the same damage, it's easy to cut down the energy cost:

Round 1: Flamethrower ~ Ember ~ Flamethrower

Round 2: Flamethrower ~ Ember ~ Flamethrower

In this case, Flamethrower is only used consecutively once across rounds, so it would suffer a 4 energy penalty.

 

[Temperantia]

I have come up with a compromise on stats:

Because of the prevalence of Rank 5 Pokemon that still want to boost their strongest stat, I say we shift it so that Ranks 0-6 are work 1.5 points, while Ranks 7 and up have the 1 point bonus.

Poor Cloyster... T_T


Anyways, Idk where else to put this, so I'm sorry that this issue isn't on the agenda, but I have a question/complaint:
I've observed a number of battles in which one participant sends the ref more Pokemon than designated by the battle conditions (ie 3v3; Opponent A has 3 Pokemon sent to the ref, while Opponent B has 4.) Obviously, this gives a huge advantage to Player B, as he knows Player A's Pokemon (from OP), and can still choose between his. I'm a little bit confused as to what the official stance is on this issue (Did I miss something in the rules somewhere?), but any clarifications would really help.

 

[Objection]

As far as I know, you're supposed to send either 3 pokemon or exactly the number of pokemon required for the format, whichever is bigger. So, in a 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 match, both players are supposed to send 3 mons to the ref. In a 4v4, they're supposed to send 4 mons, etc.

 

[Temperantia]

Exactly, I could link a dozen battles in which one player breaks this (as far as I know) rule, and retains an advantage throughout the fight.

If I'm wrong and this is acceptable, someone correct me so I don't make an ass of myself. -_-'



EDIT: Didn't actually know the "3 Pokemon for 3v3 and under" rule, so make my claim a half-dozen instead. :p

 

[DarkSlay]

All right guys, new topic to discuss. I wanted to post this in the OP, but forgot to do it entirely, so here we go:

Should Pokemon be allowed to target themselves? (IE: Should a Pokemon be able to use Toxic on itself?)

This has been a pretty big question for a while, and it really hasn't been discussed a whole lot. ASB has been known for creative use of in-game moves, with self-targeting being an example. However, self-targeting moves allow the user to gain pretty large advantages that are normally unobtainable without the help of an opponent. The best example of this would be Voodoom. Voodoom has Volt Absorb, Lightningrod, and Motor Drive (DW). With the current "undeclared" rules about self-targeting, it could theoretically hit itself, giving it a semi-permanent +1 boost to Special Attack and Speed while also healing damage with Thundershock and/or Thunder Wave. This might cause some problems with Pokemon like Voodoom (including Pokemon with Guts and Poison Heal). What should be done about this?

 

[Spenstar]

Hmm... that's the equivalent of giving Voodoom quiver dance, which isn't the worst thing in the world... a condition that turns off certain abilities with self-targeting would be appropriate. Those abilities should really only be the healing ones, though, as those could get crazy. That's just my two cents

 

[AlphaJolt]

Should Pokemon be allowed to target themselves? (IE: Should a Pokemon be able to use Toxic on itself?)

I think that it should definately be allowed. It is realistic that something should be able to hit itself. Not only that, but is is used in the anime, and this is anime style battling. (A specific example is in Ash's battle against Lucy of the Battle Frontier, Pikachu used Thunderbolt on himself to power himself up for another attack). (Another example is Ash's Grotle swallowing his own Energy Ball or Dawn's Mamoswine swollowing his Ice Shard). It also makes it easier to activate abilities like Guts, Flash Fire, Volt Absorb, etc. The later two will not be activated because somebody isnt that stupid in a match to heal their opponents pokemon, and Guts is only activated in a hax burn or something like that. It makes more sence to me to incorporate targeting yourself than to not include it.

 

[Tortferngatr]

All right guys, new topic to discuss. I wanted to post this in the OP, but forgot to do it entirely, so here we go:

Should Pokemon be allowed to target themselves? (IE: Should a Pokemon be able to use Toxic on itself?)

This has been a pretty big question for a while, and it really hasn't been discussed a whole lot. ASB has been known for creative use of in-game moves, with self-targeting being an example. However, self-targeting moves allow the user to gain pretty large advantages that are normally unobtainable without the help of an opponent. The best example of this would be Voodoom. Voodoom has Volt Absorb, Lightningrod, and Motor Drive (DW). With the current "undeclared" rules about self-targeting, it could theoretically hit itself, giving it a semi-permanent +1 boost to Special Attack and Speed while also healing damage with Thundershock and/or Thunder Wave. This might cause some problems with Pokemon like Voodoom (including Pokemon with Guts and Poison Heal). What should be done about this?

I honestly haven't seen many Voodoom outside of CAP's other flavor project (BatCAP, if you're wondering.) The only time I have was with a guy who isn't active anymore and failed to evolve his Voodoll. Whether Voodoom is broken requires more testing-you're also sacrificing a turn to get that combo, mind you, and Voodoom doesn't get that many setup moves.

As for Guts, while I see the idea, realize that for most mons with Guts this means self-targeting with Toxic. It's good in short bursts, but anything more than a few turns and the damage racks up. As for Poison Heal, I can't really say. You can get Burn while you're at it, and ability disruption is possible. Heck, I'd probably just buy Worry Seed on Abomasnow anyway so I can bypass Revenankhs and such in Double Battles.

Pretty sure the truly powerful combos [Emo Justified {Beat Up+Justified} and CritPoint {Storm Throw/Ice Breath and Anger Point}] require two mons anyway.

 

[Its_A_Random]

All right guys, new topic to discuss. I wanted to post this in the OP, but forgot to do it entirely, so here we go:

Should Pokemon be allowed to target themselves? (IE: Should a Pokemon be able to use Toxic on itself?)

This has been a pretty big question for a while, and it really hasn't been discussed a whole lot. ASB has been known for creative use of in-game moves, with self-targeting being an example. However, self-targeting moves allow the user to gain pretty large advantages that are normally unobtainable without the help of an opponent. The best example of this would be Voodoom. Voodoom has Volt Absorb, Lightningrod, and Motor Drive (DW). With the current "undeclared" rules about self-targeting, it could theoretically hit itself, giving it a semi-permanent +1 boost to Special Attack and Speed while also healing damage with Thundershock and/or Thunder Wave. This might cause some problems with Pokemon like Voodoom (including Pokemon with Guts and Poison Heal). What should be done about this?

This has some fine lining to it imo. I think it should only be viable if the move in question is projectile-based, like for example, Toxic (?). Why I'm saying this is because it's possible for a Pokemon to hit itself with a projectile based move, simply a matter of shooting the move right upward with as little force as possible, so Gravity can make it come down & hit you, but for beam/bolt based attacks like Thunder Wave, I would say no, because, it isn't really possible, no matter how much force is applied. As far as Poison Heal is concerned, it isn't really that powerful, as your only recovering 2 HP per action, not really enough to worth looking at, but Voodoom & his potential brokenness with Thunder Wave should be looked at. So by making it only possible to hit yourself with a move that's projectile-based, it would end any possible thought of Voodoom becoming broken. Now I'm just rambling...

Basically, what I'm trying to say is only allow a Pokemon to use a move designed to hit the opponent on itself if the move in question is projectile based.

 

[Darkamber8828]

^Voodoom used HP Electric

It's entirely possible to shoot a beam at yourself. IE point your head at your foot and start Flamethrowering it.

What about physical attacks? You could potentially Fire Punch yourself to get a Flash Fire boost. It's not, say, graceful, but...

Also, how is Voodoom broken? Even if it does get a boost, it can't get more than one, since Motor Drive/Lightningrod boosts don't stack...iirc. It's not like special Dragon Dance for the exact same cost as the actual Dragon Dance, plus a 3 HP recovery (assuming Modest), is game breaking, and this is the most triumphant example, after all.

It says in Water Absorb's description, and probably Volt Absorb's too, about attacking yourself, so there has to be some form of it.

 

[Its_A_Random]

^Yeah, obviously didn't factor the physical part in...

Yes, Motor Drive & Lightningrod boosts do stack iirc, not only that, but the boosts remain at the end of each round. Not to mention, a Volt/Water Absorber can actually heal itself by hitting itself with the appropriate attack. Basically what there needs to be is some fine lining to this, & this sort of stuff could be potentially game-breaking. If anything, the best thing to do is for someone to get a Voodoom & see if it is really that overpowered...Gah, I really don't know what I'm going on about anymore...

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Perhaps count deliberate self heals via abilities like Water Absorb towards the recovery limit in a battle. Ie, if the limit is 2 recoveries and 5 chills, using water gun on yourself twice is fine but you're only allowed to do it twice.

 

[Pallas Athena]

This was done in the test battle, so precedent would imply yes. However, there might be some merit to changing this, making things like Voodoom and Machamp easier to handle. As for whether or not it is physically possible, if I can "hit myself in confusion," why can't I do it deliberately? However, it kind of has passed from creative to the point where it's been done to death by anyone with a Guts/Poison Heal/Poison Rampage mon. Annoying, yes (Guts Machamp spamming No Gaurd Dynamic Punch, Voodoom increasing Special Attack and Speed AND healing himself). However, only the volt Absorb/Water Absorb have the possibility of being broken, and we can just make a self/ally inflicted healing from that count as a recover. It's not really a serious enough problem, and if you're terrified of Voodoom or Guts abusers, just play One Ability or No Abilities to keep it from stacking.

 

[Darkamber8828]

I repeat

This Pokemon absorbs all electrical attacks and instead of taking damage, recovering 50% of the damage an electrical attack would have done. A Pokemon that attacks itself with electricity to heal only recieves 25% of the damage that attack would do to itself. Thunder Wave has no effect on the Pokemon.

 

[Gerard]

Still you loose a turn by doing it (the same as using DD or Quiver Dance), but you have a point in that being permanet is a big problem, altough maybe making them not stack (or to get top 2) would be a better solution that making pokes unable to hit themselves (like slapping yourself to remove confusion)

PS: Could you make clear if stuff like Evolving on battle takes a turn (probably should since like any action it costs enery) since sometimes it gives great adventages like attacks and stats

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The most concerning self-targeting moves that really bother me are using Toxic to activate your own Poison Heal or Will-O-Wisp to activate your own Guts or Flare Boost, things like that. Those bother me because they activate immensely powerful and intentionally reactive abilities. I italicize reactive because that's what they are; they inhibit the opponent's ability to use certain moves out of fear and are effective by reacting to an opponent's play. By activating them yourself, you remove all strategy at all from the abilities, and they become "cheap, one-turn activation, amazing boosts". Being able to cheaply activate them on yourself even at the expenditure of a single turn is very cheesy, in my book. Furthermore, there now exist items designed to facilitate activating these sorts of abilities (Flame Orb / Toxic Orb), and to render the items worthless because "lol just target yourself" is silly.

To be honest, though, I do support a moratorium on activating your own abilities like that. In my humble opinion, if you use Toxic on yourself and you have Poison Heal, your attack should succeed, but your ability should not activate. It's much the same as biting yourself with Crunch if you have Justified or electrocuting yourself with Thunder Wave when you have Motor Drive. Your own chomp doesn't piss you off and boost your Attack, your own energy doesn't drive your motor, and your own poison just doesn't make you feel better each action at all.

I have come up with a compromise on stats:

Because of the prevalence of Rank 5 Pokemon that still want to boost their strongest stat, I say we shift it so that Ranks 0-6 are work 1.5 points, while Ranks 7 and up have the 1 point bonus.

I don't really like this. While, yeah, the difference is minuscule, it adds up over time. I find that normalizing the stats so that a powerful Pokemon like Rampardos doesn't just shit on a weaker Pokemon like Geodude is a good idea. It's in the spirit of ASB. I like the cutoff at 5 for the x1.5 boosts. This also encourages players to boost some of their other stats than just spam one stat into the high heavens with natures.

 

[Gerard]

I agree in that Status moves should not be self-target since, well, they are status that unless you use a good ability should not be used against you, with toxic orb and Flame orb you should even use stuff like scald, hurting yourself and not even a 100% burn, many pokes having great movepools with fligh or stuff like trick makes this more of an option (and not a complete waist of good items)

 

[Deck Knight]

RE: Evolving

Evolving must occur the first time a Pokemon is released in a battle or inbetween attacks after picking up a KO Counter. There is only one possible scenario where an evolution might occur after one player has already issued actions, and that is after a KO where the trainer whose Pokemon was KO'd is moving first, and the opponents Pokemon could evolve by immediately applying a KOC. In short: Evolving only occurs inbetween actions. I suppose in such a scenario, evolving should take up an action, or a more sensible rule might be you can only evolve a Pokemon on the field if you're moving first.

Or we could axe mid-battle evolution entirely (but not release evolution), despite Anime precedence for it.

RE: Self-targeting attacks.

I support self-targeting moves for the simple reason they are physically possible. My most common strategy is actually to use Toxic on self to activate Facade. If done early, the pokemon will wear itself out quite quickly as the drain becomes unbearable.

Now I grant this is very annoying for Pokemon with Poison Heal. But there's only 3 Pokemon with that ability, and ever since the stat shift, only Gliscor has the kind of defenses that might make it wretched. In any case, the two major Pokemon in question have 4x weaknesses that can be exploited. Most of the Pokemon with Guts or Quick Feet (or both) can only status themselves with Toxic as well, and being Toxic'd has its own weaknesses.

It could be possible to curb these effects, much like self-damaging on the Absorbs, that they only have half the effect when inflicted by the Pokemon. Same with abilities like Justified, wherein attacking yourself does give you the boost, but it isn't permanent. Note these are just self-inflicted attacks, not orders in double battles.

btw.

Suggestion: One more Stats change:

This is a 6 point change with a huge impact. It would alter the lower limit of Rank 5 from 121 to 116, enveloping in a fairly substantial number of Pokemon. No other ranks will be changed. The Change would affect the following Pokemon:

HP: Arceus, Cresselia, Musharna, Throh, Pyroak

Atk: Hitmonlee, Granbull, Weavile, Donphan, Blaziken, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Staraptor, Luxray, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, Arceus, Druddigon, Reshiram, Genesect, Krookodile, Fraxure, Syclant

Def: Weezing, Rhydon, Magcargo, Donphan, Dialga, Giratina, Cresselia, Arceus, Zekrom, Shieldon, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Cyclohm.

SpA: Kadabra, Magneton, Togekiss, Giratina-O, Shaymin-Sky, Arceus, Zoroark, Zekrom, Genesect, Yanmega, Stratagem

SpD: Tentacruel, Mr. Mime, Mantyke, Claydol, Kecleon, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus, Reshiram, Bronzong, Ferrothorn