Gen 6 sticky web discussion

[dice]

sticky web teams seem unique enough to deserve a thread in regards to how they are played and used. they differ vastly from any other playstyle in playing and building.

sticky web is kinda controversial as a team slot as well. since smeargle and shuckle are the only viable users, your team essentially becomes a 5 man team with a speed advantage. and sticky web lacks that deo-s has in that you need a seperate stealth rocker from your sticky web user. but this playstyle does have some major boons of course. pokemon that are otherwise niche such as genesect and chesnaught can now serve pretty important roles on teams-- the former can now ohko geo xern and outspeed with the -1 speed while the latter can check darkrai, grounds, and kyogre under sticky web while setting spikes. of course, there are many many more pokemon and ideas to explore. that's what this thread is for. i've always found melee mewtwo's chesnaught sticky web ingenious in its creation despite it being slightly outdated now, so i'll just post the team preview here to start a talking point:

i won't comment it on it myself as i want some others to chime it and see if they share the same opinion or dislike it. if melee wishes to post the team, he can do so. the sets aren't ridiculously important to talk about the build.

so, just some questions to spark some discussion (just ideas, you can talk about anything)

• what pokemon do you find to work well on sticky web in particular? any niche pokemon?
  
• do you think sticky web is a viable tournament playstyle?
• what do you think are partners that sticky web needs? is shadow tag mandatory, for example, or can sticky web still work without it?
• which arceus formes, if any, benefit the most from sticky web?
• do you have any cool cores under sticky web?
• how do you justify shuckle vs smeargle? is one better than the other?

 

[Thugly Duckling]

what pokemon do you find to work well on sticky web in particular? any niche pokemon?

I have recently began using Sticky Web and an unsurprising reality is SpecsOgre is just about mandatory on any serious Sticky Web team. It limits opposing Defoggers down to Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Water, and Giratina; and since Sticky Web is a form of Hyper Offense, material reduction is just extremely crucial.

how do you justify shuckle vs smeargle? is one better than the other?

They both have their benefits, but I personally think the only reason to even use Smeargle is to practically anti-lead deo-s with a moveset of Sticky Web/Rapid Spin/Nuzzle/Taunt. Overall, Shuckle is much better because it guarantees Sticky Web because of Sturdy+Mental Herb, and Shuckle can also stop set-up sweepers cold with Encore.

 

[Mr.378]

A few days ago I posted a double dragon sticky web team n the ubers team builders thread. Originally I was going to talk more about it there but looking at this thread I feel as if my thoughts are better suited here and can help contribute to making sticky web teams and the advantages and disadvantages they hold.

The Original Post

Just a simple double dragon sticky web team I created because I felt as if Arceus-Dragon was pretty cool and needed some more usage. The idea of the team is simple, using SD Arc and Ray to wear down each others checks and counters for the other. Sticky webs helps both of them by reducing speed and allowing the two main sweepers to focus on power. Mega Gengar is fairly obvious as not only does he trap things but he also allows checks fairies pretty well, which is something a team with dragon offense really appreciates. Genesect is here for a similar reason, being a powerful scarfer that can check fairies with iron head and keep offensive momentum with U-turn. Finally, Groudon is used because I wanted something that could not only check Ekiller but could also lay rocks, which he does both while also maintaining decent offensive pressure. He also is helpful and contributes to Arceus-Dragon by powering up overheat and allowing for easier KOs on annoying steel types.

Importable

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sticky Web
- Toxic
- Rock Tomb
- Encore

Arceus-Dragon @ Draco Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Overheat
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- V-create
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- ExtremeSpeed

Groudon @ Earth Plate
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

This is a team I feel has quite a bit of potential behind it, as the sweepers behind the team have quite a bit of power behind them and can KO large amounts of the meta with their stabs while keeping decent coverage. Sticky webs helps this team set up sweeps because it allows it's members to ignore speed to an extent and focus on raw power. The team has a few holes in this incarnation though. Yveltal is the most notable of them, as he hits all of my team hard while having taunt to negate attempts to set up (though Shuckle's mental herb ignores this once). Darkrai is another problem that this team, and most web teams face, as dark void can stop attempts at setting up sticky web. On a prototype build of this team I originally address this by adding a Xerneas made to switch in and kill both of them, but that didn't last. I couldn't find room to add Xern because I felt as if all the team members were too valuable to replace. I wasn't willing to swap the dragons which form the offensive might and premise of the team. Gengar or Genesect also couldn't go because they're needed to properly check fairies. Finally, Groudon was also too important to get rid off because it sets rocks which the offensive threats on the team need. There were also a few other pivots or offensive threats that I wanted to add but could not because of similar reasons. It is also possible that the team could be modified to not use webs and rely on the members natural speed to focus more on checking powerful offensive threats. Though that is an approach that I would rather not take this idea because of Ray's relatively low speed. The EVs could also probably be optimized a bit better, but they're just for now.

So what I am trying to say is that sticky web teams have some good advantages to them that make them a viable team style. At the same time it can be very restrictive building to them. They can be a good team archetype, they just need the right build.

A few other things:

Shadow Tag users, while not necessarily needed for the team style, are amazing on it because of their ability to deter and kill defoggers. They are an incredible tool for sticky web teams and should always be considered.

I'd usually choose Shuckle over Smeargle because Shuckle seems more consistant to me. I also like how Shuckle is more likely to survive and lay webs again if need be. Smeargle still has uses though because it can play around it and it's teams checks better due to it's support move pool.

 

[tutterydiglett]

• how do you justify shuckle vs smeargle? is one better than the other?

this is a tough one. at first glance shuckle seems like the more reliable one, as it has Sturdy which allows it to run Mental Herb for Taunt while Smeargle either can hope for no taunt or run Magic Coat, which is a 50/50 in itself. However, once Shuckle puts webs up, it pretty much is complete Defog bait and a bit more prediction is required while Smeargle can cripple the opposing Defogger w/ Taunt or Spore. Smeargle also has access to Nuzzle, which really irritates some teams while Shuckle has to use Rock Tomb. these two are both pretty good and I don't think one is better than the other because they both usually get their job done easily. However, I do think that Shuckle is more reliable in setting up webs but Smeargle can also do other things after it sets up webs.

 

[Seru]

• Any mon that get's big advantage while it can outspeed most of the Threats, like Specs Kyogre, Band Genesect, M-Lucario...

• No, not worth using, your opponent can simply Defog/Rapid Spin it, then your unique advantage while making a 5v6 comp will be useless.
  
  
• A nice partner should be some mon that can setup in turns that your oponnent use Defog/Rapid Spin, M-Mewtwo Y, Shift Gear Genesect (uncommon, but can give a lot of work) and Geo Herb Xerneas should be nice.

• idk exactly, but maybe Arceus-Ghost can work very well with sticky web due that with his high speed when Jolly + 252 spd EVs, he can outspeed some Geomancy Xerneas, Speed Boost Blaziken and Mewtwo.

• actually, no.

• I think shuckle is better just for the extremely bulky vs anything, acess to Gyro Ball can be annoying if your oponnent tries to Lead Setup with Xerneas, for example.

 

[brokenwings]

what pokemon do you find to work well on sticky web in particular? any niche pokemon?

• You pretty much need ways to prevent/discourage defogging, either by having a few taunters or by having a shadow tag mon. Having a spin-blocker is pretty nice, too, which make Ghostceus and Gengar great picks as they're amazing Pokemon anyways.
• I find mixed xerneas is great on webs, it's really strong and it gives you something that can check Yveltal and Ho-oh, two incredibly annoying Pokemon thanks to their ground immunity and difficulty to switch into.
• Terrakion and Mega Lucario also become much better checks to E-killer on sticky web, with the former providing taunt and stealth rocks, while the latter is able to check Xerneas as well.
• As you mentioned, scarfed genesect becomes a whole lot better with sticky web as well.
• Yveltal is both a huge threat to and also quite good on sticky web, being able to handle annoying mons like Giratina and Mewtwo, and being able to shut a lot of stuff down with taunt.
• Another Pokemon I think is cool on webs that I probably wouldn't use anywhere else is PuP Kangaskhan. With sticky web up, Kanga doesn't need to worry about being forced out by things that would normally outspeed it, such as support Arceus, making it a terrifying sweeper at +2. Just don't run fake out + PuP -.-
• Strong Pokemon with underwhelming, but not unforgivable speed in general: Specs Ogre, SD Rayquaza, LO/Banded Zekrom, Ho-oh, Mega Zard X, Mega Pinsir, Kyurem-W, Offensive Dialga/Palkia are some examples.

do you think sticky web is a viable tournament playstyle?

• Yes, but at the same time I think it's risky to bring because it really requires a good matchup to do well. (A bit moreso than other playstyles imo)

what do you think are partners that sticky web needs? is shadow tag mandatory, for example, or can sticky web still work without it?

• I don't think it's -mandatory- per say, but sticky web absolutely needs ways to prevent hazard removal, and shadow tag is one of the easiest ways to trap and eliminate certain defog users.. At the same time, it's still kinda matchup-dependent because your opponent can just as easily bring Dark/Ghostceus or Giratina-O and your shadow tagger won't be able to do its job as effectively, putting you at even more of a disadvantage.

which arceus formes, if any, benefit the most from sticky web?

• Most offensive forms like it. In particular, SD/CM Ghostceus and Groundceus are both quite good under sticky web, same with Fairyceus/Eleceus if your team needs answers to Yveltal and/or Rayquaza. E-Killer is also great on just about any offensive team, so I might as well mention that too.

do you have any cool cores under sticky web?

• Not really, maybe I'll come back and edit if I think of something cool.

how do you justify shuckle vs smeargle? is one better than the other?

• The way I see it, Shuckle has more longevity and likely more than one shot at getting webs up. Smeargle can provide more momentum and is nice in some lead matchups with magic coat, but at the same time it's less reliable cause you don't get as many chances to set hazards. By the way, how do you guys feel about SR + sticky web on the same mon?

I'll come back and edit this post later as I think of stuff to add.

 

[PoweredByRevenge]

• what pokemon do you find to work well on sticky web in particular? any niche pokemon?

My favorite pokemon to use on sticky web is Choice Specs Kyogre for sure. The sheer power of a rain boosted 150 BP STAB move off of a very high special attack boosted by specs is simply amazing and when paired with sticky to make the opposing team slower than Kyogre it makes it able to shred past almost any wall, and only stoped by few things in the tier.

• do you think sticky web is a viable tournament playstyle?

In my opinion sticky web can be used in tournament games with efectiveness, but in my eyes it does need good matchup to do well because if the sticky web user plays an offensive team it will have a great advantage, but on the other hand if it plays a stall team then sticky web is pretty much useless.

• what do you think are partners that sticky web needs? is shadow tag mandatory, for example, or can sticky web still work without it?

A Shadow tag user is a great partner for sticky web teams as it allows them to have something to trap and kill common support Arceus forms like water, grass, fairy etc used in more defensive teams thus allowing sticky web to remain up for the rest of the game since the opponents defoger will be gone. Shadow tag will also help vs stall teams since it can easily eliminate walls that could give the sticky team troubles like defensive Xerneas, support Arceus, spdef Palkia without Dragon Tail, non Roar Dialga and many others.

• which arceus formes, if any, benefit the most from sticky web?

From personal experience and from watching other players use sticky web, the Arceus forms i have seen work the best are Swords Dance Arceus-Ground since it can benefit from being faster than opposing pokemon to use strong STAB earthquakes combined with stone edge coverage to sweep teams without needing extremespeed all that much and by getting rid of extremespeed Arceus-Ground will have a slot to use Recover or Refresh which can come in very handy, the same goes with Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost but with Shadow Force instead of earthquake, shadow claw to hit cores that use a normal type and a ghost type to avoid shadow force and finally brick break to hit normal types. And lastly i have also used Arceus-Fairy to act as a stallbreaker with a calm mind refresh set and to also check Yveltal and other threats to sticky web teams.

• do you have any cool cores under sticky web?

I really haven't played enough with sticky web to come up with cool and good core that hasn't been used yet.

• how do you justify shuckle vs smeargle? is one better than the other?

To be honest, i think it comes down to personal preference since they are both good but have some different advantages, Smeargle on one hand can use Nuzzle wich is very usefull to paralyze fast offensive threats, it can also use Spore to put something to sleep if using Nuzzle on it wouldn't be benefitial, and finally it also has access to rapid spin to prevent opposing pokemon to set up hazards on it. But on the other hand, Shuckle has Sturdy which acts as a focus sash giving Shuckle the chance to use a mental herb to assure that at least sticky web is set up vs a taunt user, it also has much more bulk than smeargle wich in some occasions can make it so that Shuckle is able to set up sticky web and stealth rocks before fainting, lastly shuckle also gets Encore which is a very good move that can prevent pokemon from setting up on it, and it also learns rock tomb which is used to lower the target's speed so that the pokemon coming in after Shuckle faints has an easier time dealing with it.

 

[Disaster Area]

• what pokemon do you find to work well on sticky web in particular? any niche pokemon?

I find Terrakion and Genesect seem to find their way on there a lot, and arceus-ghost. But I've not experimented very much. Specsogre seems most awesome on it though.

• do you think sticky web is a viable tournament playstyle?

Yes so long as you can handle shadow tag

• what do you think are partners that sticky web needs? is shadow tag mandatory, for example, or can sticky web still work without it?

I think fsr yveltal is a huge weakness by default and you need to work out how you've covering it from the start (fairyceus, togekiss, xerneas, clefable, ttar, ?_?)

• which arceus formes, if any, benefit the most from sticky web?

No clue c: ground seems to be popular, ghost seems to be natural.

• do you have any cool cores under sticky web?

Nope :( Not something i've been terribly creative with

• how do you justify shuckle vs smeargle? is one better than the other?

No opinion on this especially but I don't feel either's unviable, although I'm willing to listen to ideas.

Short answers c: not a playstyle I've experimented with much