Gen 2 Suicune (OU) [QC 2/2] [GP 2/2]

[Iguana]

[OVERVIEW]
Suicune is one of the best blanket check Pokemon in the GSC OU metagame, using its impressive defensive stats to check many threats such as non-Curse Snorlax, Nidoking, Marowak, Tyranitar, and Charizard. Suicune's lack of physical weaknesses makes it great against most physical attackers, and it also fares quite well against mixed attackers, as they are typically vulnerable to Toxic when dropping Rest for status moves or coverage attacks. It will sometimes draw comparisons to other Water-type Pokemon like Vaporeon and Starmie. However, while Vaporeon can also run a RestTalk set, its lack of physical bulk means it is a far inferior wall and should instead focus on setting up with Growth. Starmie is very effective and versatile with Rapid Spin, a resistance to Fighting, Recover, and even STAB Psychic for Gengar. STAB Thunder OHKOes it, however, and status greatly hinders it unless there is Heal Bell support. Also, since Suicune's combination of Surf and Toxic hinders almost every Pokemon in the metagame, it has a surprising offensive presence of its own for such a defensive Pokemon. However, the prevalence of RestTalk Zapdos and Raikou limits its offensive potential and often relegates it to a defensive role.

[SET]
name: Defensive Tank
move 1: Surf
move 2: Toxic / Ice Beam
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
========
This set is designed to wall some offensive threats and threaten them in return with powerful attacks and Toxic. +6 Return from Snorlax and +2 Earthquake from Marowak never OHKO it, unboosted Double-Edge from Snorlax never 3HKOes it, and +1 critical hit Cross Chop from Machamp only OHKOes it 10.3% of the time. Suicune is a wall, to be sure, but it is surprisingly challenging to switch into without entering a disadvantageous position. Its ability to threaten Steel- and Ground-types and its general offensive presence distinguish it from other defensive walls—most notably Umbreon, which it often draws comparisons to.

Suicune is perhaps the best Toxic spreader in GSC OU. Toxic deters threats that lack Rest, such as phazing Zapdos and Cloyster, and it is even problematic for Curse Snorlax, which will be forced to use Rest not long after it becomes poisoned. Additionally, the combination of Toxic and a Water-type move is effective against almost all Pokemon in the metagame, especially those that lack RestTalk. The only notable exception is Tentacruel. Landing Toxic on integral Pokemon like Starmie and Cloyster can make an enormous difference in determining whether your team can keep Spikes up. Additionally, spreading poison on an opposing team in tandem with Roar or Whirlwind from Suicune itself or a teammate, such as Raikou, Zapdos, or Skarmory, makes for a nasty combination to inflict passive damage consistently.

However, Ice Beam can replace Toxic for a few good reasons: hitting Grass-types such as Exeggutor hard, hitting Zapdos and Dragonite hard, and taking advantage of Suicune's longevity to possibly inflict freezes, which are immensely crippling in GSC. Additionally, Ice Beam gives a 2/3 chance for Suicune to get an offensive move when using Sleep Talk. This is especially helpful to contend with Pokemon that threaten stall teams like Nidoking and Marowak. However, dropping Toxic makes Suicune setup fodder for Cloyster and Snorlax, which are two of the most common Pokemon in the metagame.

Sleep Talk prevents foes from having free turns while Suicune is sleeping and lets Suicune effectively absorb sleep-inducing moves from Pokemon like Jynx, Nidoking, Snorlax, and Exeggutor. It is especially crucial for Nidoking, whose Lovely Kiss is standard on many sets, Thunder usually 3HKOes Suicune, and Thief threatens to substantially reduce Suicune's longevity. Alternatively, Roar can prevent offensive Pokemon like Vaporeon and Snorlax from boosting, and, in tandem with Toxic, wear them down over time. Roar can make Suicune a threatening force if paired with Spikes support, particularly since so much of the metagame struggles against the combination of Toxic and Surf. However, without Sleep Talk, Suicune's inevitable Rest will provide free turns to dangerous foes such as Marowak and Nidoking, against which it is usually the first line of defense.

Team Options
=============
Raikou is the best check to Zapdos and Raikou, which are very powerful and present threats to Suicune. In return, Suicune can easily withstand any attacks from Ground-types. An option to consider is RestTalk Raikou, which lets it continuously impact the game while still handling Zapdos and Raikou. Raikou can also give a team more offense through powerful attacks and Roar alongside Spikes support. Once Suicune poisons Pokemon like Snorlax and Raikou, Raikou can later catch them on the switch with Roar, stacking Spikes and poison damage without letting them recover. Raikou also threatens every Spikes-immune Pokemon, racking up switches and passive damage.

Rapid Spin support is desirable with Suicune, as consistent damage via Spikes can leave it worn down quickly against dangerous foes such as Nidoking, Marowak, and Rhydon. Golem is one of the most reliable spinners, as its STAB Earthquake deters spinblockers from switching in. It can also absorb numerous attacks from non-Earthquake Snorlax and threaten foes such as Zapdos with Explosion. Cloyster and Forretress can set Spikes to help Suicune and its team create longer term pressure. However, Cloyster and Suicune stack an Electric weakness, which can be dangerous against common offensive combinations such as Gengar + Zapdos. Forretress is immune to Toxic and has a useful defensive typing against Snorlax and Explosion users, but it can struggle to safely remove Spikes against spinblockers and is specially frail. A Ghost-type in Misdreavus or Gengar can spinblock to preserve Spikes and nullify Explosions that are aimed at Suicune, which becomes easier when Suicune has poisoned the Explosion user. Non-Roar Suicune sets will appreciate a phazer teammate, such as Raikou, Golem, Skarmory, or Zapdos, to increase Spikes damage, deal with boosted Curse Snorlax, and avoid being trapped by Mean Look Umbreon or Misdreavus. Skarmory also provides excellent defensive coverage against the most physically powerful foes, including Belly Drum Snorlax, Curse + Earthquake Snorlax, and Curse Heracross, and it serves as a backup check to Marowak and Machamp.

Miltank is another good Suicune partner. While Suicune is excellent at dealing with Snorlax without Curse, it can struggle against Curse variants. Using Toxic against Curse Snorlax often works in the short term, as this compels it to use Rest; however, in the long run, Suicune is not able to endure Snorlax's boosted moves. To address this, Miltank's Growl can counteract Curse and stall Snorlax out of PP. Moreover, unlike Skarmory, Miltank can take on Curse Snorlax that have Fire- or Electric-type coverage. It also provides excellent support via Hell Bell. This is particularly helpful if Suicune lacks Sleep Talk. Blissey is another good Heal Bell support option, and unlike Miltank, it can fend off Pokemon with powerful special attacks like Zapdos.

For a more balanced team, Nidoking can provide the needed offensive prowess. Its immunity to Electric makes it a good pivot against Zapdos and Raikou, which can help teammates such as Snorlax and Raikou avoid taking a hit and potential paralysis from Thunder. Nidoking's Thief can also cripple a key foe limiting Suicune such as Zapdos or Snorlax.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
============
Mirror Coat Suicune can withstand even powerful special attacks like Thunder from Zapdos and OHKO it in return. However, this comes at the cost of most of Suicune's health and requires it to be healthy. Additionally, it decreases Suicune's effectiveness against physical attackers and foes such as Cloyster. This compromises its usefulness on defensive teams; however, if appearing among offensive teammates, Suicune’s presence may trigger increased caution from an opponent. Overall, using Mirror Coat is costly but can be worthwhile. Another option is to use RestTalk and Roar together. Overall, this tends to decrease Suicune's effectiveness against most foes, as Roar replaces a coverage or status move and fails when called by Sleep Talk against a slower foe, but the set could work for teams in need of a status-absorbing, phazing bulky Water-type.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Zapdos**: Zapdos is the greatest threat to Suicune, easily 2HKOing it with its powerful Thunder. RestTalk Zapdos can easily deal with Toxic Suicune, and its Spikes immunity means that it won't take consistent damage while switching in. While Ice Beam does 3HKO Zapdos, Suicune must risk a lot to attempt a KO. Non-RestTalk Zapdos can also take advantage of Suicune being forced out to paralyze its checks with Thunder Wave or rack up Spikes damage with Roar or Whirlwind, although it must beware of Toxic if it lacks Rest.

**Raikou**: Raikou 2HKOes Zapdos with Thunder and Thunderbolt, whereas Suicune cannot even 4HKO it in return. RestTalk variants have virtually nothing to fear from Suicune, as they can easily cure themselves of poison. However, Roar variants fear Toxic, as they can be taken advantage of by Suicune's teammates when forced to use Rest.

**Tentacruel**: Tentacruel is not as common as Zapdos or Raikou, but it is one of the greatest threats to RestTalk Suicune. Its immunity to Toxic and high Special Defense allow it to switch in with impunity and set up Swords Dance or Substitute. However, Roar variants of Suicune, while still not able to harm Tentacruel, can readily prevent it from setting up. Rapid Spin variants can easily remove Spikes against Suicune.

**Snorlax**: While Suicune is a common initial switch-in to Snorlax, it primarily serves to scout without having to send in a more passive Pokemon such as Skarmory. Taking Toxic puts Snorlax in the undesirable position of having to use Rest, and even a +1 Double-Edge generally can't bring Suicune dangerously low. However, in the long run, and especially if Spikes is on Suicune's side of the field, Snorlax has chances to KO with a critical hit Double-Edge or set up Curse or Belly Drum while it's sleeping. Roar Suicune is capable of preventing setup temporarily, but, as with RestTalk + Toxic Suicune, Snorlax has the advantage in the long run. It also completely dominates Suicune with neither Roar nor Toxic.

**Growth Sweepers**: Espeon and Vaporeon can break through Suicune's bulk by setting up with Growth. Suicune's Surf is only a 4HKO on Espeon, and Espeon can potentially 3HKO with +1 Psychic, heal off Surf damage with Morning Sun, block Toxic with Substitute, and use Baton Pass to send Special Attack boosts to a teammate. Vaporeon takes a pittance from Surf and usually has Rest to heal itself of Toxic or Baton Pass to pass Special Attack boosts to a teammate. At +5 Special Attack, Vaporeon can 3HKO Suicune with Surf. However, if Suicune has Roar, Vaporeon cannot use Suicune as setup fodder or achieve anything offensively until it is the last remaining Pokemon.

**Exeggutor**: While Exeggutor fears Toxic and Ice Beam from Suicune, it takes little from Surf and can regain any lost health with Giga Drain if Suicune stays in. Giga Drain has a solid chance of 3HKOing Suicune, which makes it risky for Suicune to stay in and fight. If Suicune is its team's primary status absorber, this can cause problems, as being forced to switch lets Exeggutor cripple its teammates. Explosion also does huge damage to Suicune, which could pave the way for a Rock-, Ground-, or Fire-type to wreak havoc.

**Gengar**: Gengar is quite annoying for Suicune, as it is one of the few Toxic-immune Pokemon that has an advantageous matchup. Its Thunder or Thunderbolt always 3HKOes Suicune, and the threat of Thief, Hypnosis, and Explosion targeting either Suicune or its teammates makes it risky to deal with. A full health Suicune can, however, take one hit from Gengar safely and hit it for substantial damage in return with Surf.

**Explosion and Self-Destruct**: While Suicune's bulk lets it withstand all but the strongest of attacks, Pokemon with Explosion and Self-Destruct can instantly KO it with minimal chip damage or bring it to very low health. Exeggutor, Golem, Gengar, Cloyster, Forretress, Steelix, Snorlax, and Muk all pose serious threats to Suicune for this reason. With Suicune out of the picture, threats like Charizard, Nidoking, Tyranitar, Marowak, Moltres, and Dragonite can easily get out of hand, so Suicune should tread carefully when facing the aforementioned threats. It should pay close attention to what teammates appear alongside them to determine whether its health can be risked.

**Thief**: Thief is dangerous to Suicune's usual defensive teams, so it is important to be generally wary when against common Thief users, such as Nidoking, Jynx, Exeggutor, and Gengar, and try to determine which teammate's item is least critical in that particular game. If Suicune's Leftovers are stolen, it will be much less effective at checking foes such as Snorlax, Machamp, and Nidoking, especially if Spikes are on the field.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[mc56556, 483288]]
- Quality checked by: [[Earthworm, 15210], [M Dragon, 21345]]
- Grammar checked by: [[Finland, 517429], [CryoGyro, 331519]]

 

[Wenderz]

Solid analysis, congratulations. Feel free to implement what you want from this reply.

You say in the intro that Suicune often isn't the first Water-type people consider when building a team, which is true. I think it is worth explaining why by talking about the competition with Cloyster, Vaporeon, and Starmie mainly, since they all bring valuable defensive as well as utility or can serve as win condition.

When talking about Sleep Talk merits over Surf, I think that you could add a sentence on Suicune being decent at absorbing sleeping moves from the likes of Nidoking, Jynx, non Curse / Belly Drum Snorlax, and to a lesser extent Exeggutor since Suicune has the bulk to switch into these fairly reliably (You kinda refer to that in your paragraph about the odds of getting an attacking move when using ST, but I think it could be clearer). Similarily, you could note that Roar allows Suicune to temporarily check the likes of Vaporeon and SD Tentacruel instead of serving as a set up fodder for them. While it is a general truth about phazing moves in GSC, I think that it is worth mentioning that Roar can be essential against PerishTrap Misdreavus and Mean look Umbreon, especially for teams in which Suicune usually find its place.

I don't think you need to go as much into details when talking about Suicune match up against things like Nidopking and Golem. Instead, you could just add a sentence on your paragraph listing things that Suicune can handle, such as Nidoking, Golem, Rhydon, Marowak (though Maro can OHKO it at +2 with Spikes), Jynx, maybe Snorlax without a boosting move... while making it clear that it should watch for Thief and Explosion / Self-Destruct from some of these. Just to make clear what Suicune can accomplish right from the start.

I think Forretress deserves an important mention as a spinner that pairs well with Suicune, as it brings Spikes which can add to Suicune's Toxic and / or abuse of Roar, and because Spikes are just extremely useful in general, including for defensively oriented teams that tend to pack Suicune.

The most noteworthy other option for Suicune is probably Mirror Coat, which can be game changing if you successfully pull it off against a Zapdos or Raikou. I don't think Blizzard should be mentioned, Hydro Pump is debatable to keep.

In C&C, vaporeon should probably appear either alongside Snorlax or Tentacruel or in its own section at it can take advantage of any Suicune without Roar to set up. You could maybe add a mention to Venusaur alongside Exeggutor as it completely walls Suicune lacking Ice Beam and can launch Leech Seed and Sleep Powder fearlessly. I don't think that Blissey should appear in this section,a s Suicune will just stall her out of PP most of the time.
Also, no need for "honorable mentions" in C&C. If a Pokemon is kinda shaky as a counter, just explain why that's the case.

Once again, good job.

 

[wyc2333]

not a qc, but imo cune is more comparable to vap bc both of them can use stalk, while cune uses tox/ib and vap uses growth.

 

[Jorgen]

I agree with Wenderz's comments (if they haven't already been implemented) and have one more thing to add:

If Golem has taught me anything, it's that one should challenge the notion that two key moves (e.g., roar & rapid spin) are mutually exclusive.

In Suicune's case, those two moves are Rest and Sleep Talk. I've seen Suicune with both, and it's a way to solve the conflict between wanting Suicune to always be active against Grounds and wanting to be able to check Curselax & Vaporeon. It has weaknesses, sure, but the benefit is clear.

The main point of this revamp seems to be consolidating the two sets of the one currently on-site. Seems like a good chance to mention a viable set (RestTalk *and* Roar) that slipped through the cracks of the previous analysis's peculiar distinction between "RestTalk" and "Roar" Suicunes.

 

[Iguana]

Hey! Thank you very much, all, for your thoughts and recommendations for my analysis! Wenderz in particular, your extensive thoughts here I appreciate a ton! I implemented a lot of what you all recommended, and for a few thoughts, I'll wait to see if the C&C team has similar views. Thanks again!

That being said, I am ready to move this from WIP to be ready for QCing! :)

 

[Earthworm]

[OVERVIEW]

Suicune is not often among the first considerations when building a GSC OU team; however, it has some nice advantages going for it, including excellent HP, Def, and SpD stats, along with a formidable SpA stat. Part of the reason Suicune is not always at the forefront of GSC players' minds when building teams is in large part due to the viability of other Water-type Pokemon in the meta. Cloyster, Starmie, and Vaporeon are among the most viable Water types in the meta, and each has a different role to play. Understanding these and fitting Suicune in where appropriate is necessary when building a team. Suicune in particular has a place on stall-oriented builds in GSC OU where its defensive bulk and opportunities to inflict opposing Pokemon with Toxic are most appreciated. One of Suicune's most beneficial functions revolves around how almost every Pokemon in the metagame is hindered by the combination of Water-type moves and Toxic (the only exception is Tentacruel). This combination of movepool options is among the reasons why Suicune is a formidable team member. While the main focus of this analysis will center around Suicune's great ability to defend and stall out opposing teams, it is important to not lose sight of how Suicune does have a solid SpA stat as well, which can fuel powerful STAB options like Surf and Hydro Pump.

I think this delves too deeply into general GSC OU team building and should more succinctly describe Suicune's role. To summarise my own take on Suicune's role and position in the metagame and team builder: Suicune has fantastic defensive stats and decent offense in Surf + Toxic. It is a great blanket check to a large number of physical and mixed threats which can be difficult for defensive teams to handle (Nidoking, Tyranitar, Rhydon, Marowak, Machamp, Charizard, etc, and as a temporary measure to Snorlax), and it can even pressure the biggest forces in the metagame (Snorlax and Zapdos) and force them to Rest. However, precisely because these two Pokemon can handle Surf + Toxic with Rest and because of the two Pokemon having a very substantial offensive presence that can force Suicune out, Suicune needs to have teammates that can take them on reliably, which is why it is better suited for defensive teams.

I think the comparison with the other Water-types could be improved on as well, since it is less about the Pokemon being Water-types in my opinion and more about what you need from the slot. Cloyster is a very different Pokemon to Suicune for example, and I would never really consider swapping out either of the two for the other personally. Vaporeon and Starmie are more similar to Suicune though, so comparing them in terms of bulk, ability to take non-STAB Electric attacks, ability to apply pressure effectively and differences in those respects are things worth talking about here. You could also compare Suicune to the other Pokemon that it sometimes competes for a slot with, including Umbreon and Zapdos.

[SET]
name: Defensive Wall
Suicune @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Toxic / Ice Beam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Roar

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
========
...

Toxic can be substituted, however, for Ice Beam, and there are a few reasons to consider it on this set: One is its ability to hit Grass types such as Exeggutor hard, which is important since Surf would only do marginal damage to them. Another is how it can hit Flying types like Zapdos hard with super-effective damage. The 10% chance to freeze is not to be overlooked as well, since a freeze in a GSC OU game is immensely valuable. Additionally, with Suicune's defensive bulk, it is afforded a number of opportunities to use Ice Beam, increasing the statistical odds of freezing an opposing Pokemon. Downsides of running Ice Beam on this Suicune set include not being able to Toxic Cloyster, which can make a large difference in a game, and also not being able to threaten Curse Snorlax.

I think one of the most important reasons to choose Ice Beam over Toxic is to increase Suicune's reliability against Nidoking, which is a very important threat for defensive teams to cover and a major reason you might consider bringing Suicune in the first place. That definitely needs to be mentioned, and moreso than Exeggutor which is crippled by Toxic. Also, rather than mentioning that Zapdos takes super effective damage from Ice Beam, which (hopefully) everyone reading the analysis will know, you could instead mention that it is 3HKOed and therefore cannot come in with impunity (gained from having RestTalk to manage Toxic) to wreak havoc.

Among the most difficult decisions to make when deciding on a Suicune set for a GSC OU team is Sleep Talk or Roar. Both have merits undoubtedly.

In my opinion this is not an accurate depiction of the decision making process; Sleep Talk is presently by far the more commonly chosen move and Roar is usually chosen in specific circumstances, such as when the Suicune user doesn't feel comfortable with their Vaporeon matchup or they are trying to get more offensive presence out of the Suicune slot on a team with Toxic and Spikes users.

Intriguingly and conversely, Roar provides a means to prevent Snorlax from boosting as well, and, in tandem with Toxic to wear it down over time, this can make for an effective Snorlax check, at least until Suicune needs to Rest and thereafter burn Sleep turns. Roar also provides protection against trappers in the GSC OU metagame, including Mean Look Umbreon and PerishTrap Misdreavus. That check is quite important as both Umbreon and Misdreavus are bulky enough to stall out Suicune, and losing a defensive backbone like Suicune can cripple a team.

This is all accurate but I think a little more can be added on the downsides and lack of necessity for Roar. i.e. A sleeping Suicune without Sleep Talk can no longer hope to reliably check about half of the Pokemon it is typically chosen as a check to, such as Nidoking, Marowak, Charizard, Machamp, etc. And also, there are often many other Pokemon capable of phazing on a team that has Suicune, and some of them are probably better at it than Suicune.

Included in the rationale for an Ice Beam and Sleep Talk combo is that this allows for a 2/3 chance for Suicune to get an offensive move when using Sleep Talk. This is especially helpful to contend with Pokemon that are threatening to stall teams like Nidoking. Additionally, this provides Suicune with a better chance to hit threatening Pokemon that use Substitute, such as Jynx and Exeggutor.

As mentioned above I think this needs to be repositioned to be front and centre of the Ice Beam rationale. I also don't think the Substitute point makes much sense as Ice Beam doesn't break Jynx's sub anyway and is less effective against Jynx than Toxic.

Among the roles that Suicune plays in the GSC OU metagame is providing a solid check to Nidoking. Given its solid defensive bulk, even normally powerful STAB moves from Nidoking like Earthquake are unable to cause significant damage to Suicune that it cannot shrug off via either Leftovers recovery or Rest. Important for Suicune to watch out for, however, is Thief on the switch-in, as that will take away Leftovers from Suicune, which is an important source of consistent recovery for it; Lovely Kiss, which can prevent Suicune from Resting, allowing Nidoking to continually chip it if the Suicune is not running Sleep Talk; and Thunder, which, as with Raikou and Zapdos, hits Suicune hard despite its good defensive bulk. It is wise to scout the Nidoking set first before assuming Suicune can check it effectively.

Another Pokemon that Suicune is not only able to check but also is able to threaten effectively is Golem. Its Rock and Ground typing may be helpful defensively against even powerful Normal-type attackers like Snorlax, but the combination makes it 4x weak to Water-type attacks. Additionally, with Suicune's bulk, it is able to shrug off attacks that might threaten other Pokémon considering Golem's sizable Atk stat. A good strategy to use to threaten Golem with Suicune is to try to anticipate switches to Golem, such as to Rapid Spin off a Spike, and switch in Suicune to threaten it. This enables Suicune to use a free move, which can be used to fire off a Surf, Toxic, perhaps Rest if needed, burn a Sleep turn if Sleep Talk cannot be threatened or use Sleep Talk, or Roar to accrue more Spikes damage on the opposing team.

Focusing on Nidoking is warranted, although I think you want to mention that Nidoking is a massive threat to defensive teams in general. On the other hand, I don't think this Golem paragraph is warranted or accurate. While it is true that Suicune checks and threatens Golem, switching it in as the opponent switches to Golem only really achieves a 6.25% chip on Golem and may involve some degree of risk. For example, one of the most common entry points for Golem is against Snorlax, and Snorlax is often in against a Thunder user such as Zapdos in these cases, which Suicune doesn't want to risk switching into. Golem is also not an offensive powerhouse like many of the other Pokemon Suicune needs to check for its team, so the nuances of the matchup aren't as critical as those involved with the Nidoking matchup.

If Roar on the Suicune set, knowing the right moment to switch in is important to identify early on. This is because Suicune can be quite effective in phazing out offensive Pokemon while being able to withstand powerful attacks. Scouting an opponent's sets beforehand is helpful, such as identifying whether a Snorlax is Rest and Sleep Talk or just Rest, or whether a set has powerful type coverage that can hit Suicune hard, like Thunder. Additionally, knowing what Suicune can withstand ahead of time is helpful. Suicune is able to survive three hits of Double-Edge from Snorlax, so calcing ahead of time and planning is quite important in the course of a battle.

Personally I don't think this paragraph adds much of value, other than general game advice not really specific to Suicune (knowing damage calculations approximately or specifically) and the idea that Suicune should try to avoid taking unnecessary hits if it doesn't have Sleep Talk, which I think belongs in an earlier paragraph somewhere.

Team Options
=============
...

Miltank is another good partner in tandem with Suicune, particularly for very stall-oriented teams. Miltank is able to withstand powerful and even STAB attacks from Snorlax and use Growl to undo the Curse boosts along with Milk Drink to restore its HP. This is particularly helpful to Suicune because with Snorlax's solid SpD stat, it is relatively unconcerned with attacks like Surf. Toxic damage is an option for Suicune against Snorlax, but many sets will run Rest, so this ends up not being effective in taking it down. Miltank also provides excellent support via Hell Bell, which can assist Suicune in waking up more rapidly than the normal three turns.

Miltank is a questionable addition in my opinion. It could be beneficial to have alongside non-Sleep Talk Suicune but it invites in Pokemon like Gengar, Cloyster, and Machamp to some extent, the paralysis it inflicts with Body Slam can be somewhat undesirable at times as it prevents Suicune from inflicting poison against Pokemon like Exeggutor and Cloyster, neither of them are great checks to Machamp, Zapdos, or Gengar (Suicune is okay at checking Machamp but if you have a Miltank you usually want something more consistent). Overall I just think that a defensive team with Miltank and Suicune will struggle to be structurally sound. Blissey is a better choice of Heal Bell user with Suicune since it counters Zapdos, although both Blissey and Miltank typically like to have Starmie in the Machamp/Zard/etc check slot.

That said, if you can suggest some team structures that would successfully use Miltank and Suicune without introducing weaknesses to common threats then I would be willing to rescind this criticism.

Also less relevant but "even STAB attacks" from Snorlax sounds off. Nothing defensive that can't take Snorlax's STAB attacks is a good Snorlax check.

Rapid Spin support is critical for teams with Suicune as well, as consistent damage via Spikes restricts Suicune from having a strong impact on the game. Each viable Rapid Spinner provides support in its own way. Golem, for example, can be a good means to absorb powerful attacks from Snorlax (unless it is running Curse and Earthquake, which can hit Golem hard), and it has the ability to phaze out Pokemon to accrue more damage on opposing teams. Other Rapid Spin support options include Starmie, which is an effective Pokemon in GSC OU in how it can Recover consistently and also has sizable SpA and Speed stats; Cloyster and Forretress, which can function as both Spikes setters and Rapid Spinners; and Tentacruel, which has an outstanding SpD stat on top of an sizable SpA stat with good STAB offensive options, as with Starmie.

I would again request that some example team structures with Suicune + Starmie and Suicune + Rapid Spin Tentacruel be provided here so I can be confident that we aren't suggesting combinations that are difficult to make work here.

More than just the Rapid Spin support it provides, Forretress can be an excellent partner alongside Suicune in GSC OU. The rationale is that if the Suicune set includes Roar, then the combination of a solid Spikes setter in Forretress and a bulky phazer in Suicune results in being able to accrue damage effectively on an opponent's team due to Spikes. Something similar can be said for Cloyster + Suicune, but the issue lies in running multiple Water-type Pokemon on the same team. This not only magnifies a weakness to very common and highly viable Electric-type Pokemon like Raikou and Zapdos; it also places a greater burden on a team's Electric-type checks.

Just want to note that Forretress's Toxic immunity can be considered a valuable asset here as well as its capacity to absorb Explosion. So Roar is not the only factor here.

For a more balanced team, Nidoking can provide a nice role alongside Suicune. The rationale is that Nidoking has among the most outstanding coverage options at its disposal in the GSC OU metagame. It is wise to examine team coverage gaps to see which moves might be most useful on a Nidoking set alongside Suicune and the remaining team members.

I'd also mention that Nidoking can be a valuable pivot into Electric attacks to help out against Zapdos.

While Miltank is able to provide solid defensive/stall support with a good means to recover HP and to reduce Atk, having other physically defensive backbones to provide additional support may be a worthwhile decision. Depending on what threatens the team, options such as Skarmory or Steelix may provide the extra boost of physical defensive needed alongside a potential Miltank. Skarmory is an excellent check to Curse Machamp and Curse Heracross, which can be quite threatening offensive Pokemon. An additional consideration in this vein may be Reflect on Raikou. While not a permanent solution, this can bolster the physical defense of a team for long enough to either generate offense, recover HP, or burn Sleep turns even.

Need to mention Curselax and Drumlax if mentioning Skarmory.

Suicune is also a common target for Explosion users. It would be worthwhile to mention this in the context of the usefulness of Forretress/Skarmory and also potentially mention Ghost-types which help with Curse Firelax, Rapid Spin users, and Explosion users.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
============

While the primary Suicune set is formidable, there are other options that may be taken into consideration. The majority of these consist of more offensive move choices.

These sentences aren't really necessary; I'd try to include the meaning conveyed into the following sentences and remove them.

Blizzard is a very niche move possibility, but it can hit Pokemon weak to Ice-type moves even harder than Ice Beam. The drawbacks of Blizzard, as with Hydro Pump, are pp and accuracy. pp is ever important to conserve in GSC OU, so 8 pp to a move means a player is under tremendous pressure to use each move very wisely. Additionally, Blizzard does not have a greater chance to freeze an opposing Pokemon than Ice Beam does--both have a 10% chance to freeze.

Blizzard is a really bad move on Suicune in my opinion. I wouldn't bother mentioning it.

Mirror Coat is perhaps the most viable other move consideration for Suicune. The benefit of it is that given Suicune's great defensive bulk, it can withstand even powerful Special Attacks like Thunder from Zapdos and OHKO Zapdos in return. Thunder against a Suicune at full health will deal around 3/4 of Suicune's total HP as damage, which in return will, given that Mirror Coat deals double the damage taken from a Special Attack (not from a Hidden Power move, though), allow Suicune to OHKO Zapdos. This makes for a potent and potentially game-ending move at Suicune's disposal. Players must be exceptionally careful using this move, however, due to the significant amount of damage dealt to Suicune for it to work.

Other downsides include the reliance on the surprise factor and the loss of a valuable moveslot / reduced ability to take hits.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Raikou**: Raikou is among the most prominent threats to Suicune in the GSC OU metagame. With excellent Speed and SpA stats and powerful Electric-type STAB options in Thunder and Thunderbolt, in tandem with access to both Rest and Sleep Talk, Raikou consistently threatens Suicune and is able to recover HP as well. There is just one exception to this: it is if Suicune is a more offensive set and Raikou is not a Sleep Talk variant set. This allows Suicune to punish Raikou with a move like Hydro Pump, at least until it is about to wake up from Resting and can threaten Thunder or Thunderbolt.

**Zapdos**: Very similar to the points raised in how Raikou threatens Suicune, Zapdos presents a large threat to it as well. Suicune is able to do little versus it on an offensive level, and of course powerful STAB moves like Thunder and Thunderbolt will cripple Suicune, even with its great defensive bulk. Even Blizzard, a niche option on considerably more offensive Suicune sets, does little to seriously chip Zapdos considering how all Zapdos sets run Rest. Running a solid Zapdos check is essential if the team has Suicune.

Zapdos is the number one threat to Suicune and should be positioned first here if these two are separated, but I think it would be reasonable to include them as a single category (i.e. "Zapdos and Raikou"). Raikou doesn't have as great a capacity to switch in unhindered as it often needs to deal with Spikes damage and hates status if it isn't running RestTalk. HPump and Blizzard don't really need to be mentioned as they are barely ever used.

**Tentacruel**: Tentacruel is an interesting Suicune check. Unlike with Raikou or Zapdos, it does not pose an immediate threat, particularly with Suicune's excellent defensive stats. However, there is little Suicune can do back to Tentacruel. It is immune to Toxic given its Poison typing, and with its Special Defense stat as high as it is and its Water typing, Surf from Suicune hardly damages it. On top of this, while Suicune Rests, Tentacruel is able to fire off free moves, which can consist of Rapid Spinning off a Spike set up on the opposing team, Swords Dancing to boost moves like Sludge Bomb, using Toxic to hit a Pokemon switching in, or any other moves that the Tentacruel set might run.

The focus here should be on Tentacruel coming in for free and setting up or hitting Pokemon on the switch. There is also no need to mention Suicune using Rest in my opinion, except potentially in the context of Roar Suicune.

**Snorlax**: Out of this list so far, Snorlax is likely the least solid check/counter to Suicune, but it nevertheless is one to consider. While hitting Snorlax with Toxic is a strong means to force it to Rest, a Snorlax at full or close to full HP can switch into a Suicune preparing to Rest rather freely, and at that point, it can Curse or use Belly Drum to pose a serious threat. Running Roar on Suicune can disallow Snorlax from setting up like this, but that also likely means that Suicune is not able to do anything while it Rests. The other aspect to consider is how formidable Snorlax's Special Defense stat is; even with STAB, Surf from Suicune will not scare away a Snorlax at high HP.

This makes it sound like Snorlax doesn't beat Suicune reliably. It virtually always has the advantage over Suicune, although Suicune can definitely help to buy its team time against Snorlax with Toxic or Roar. Rest Snorlax is fine for the purposes of preventing Suicune from hitting the rest of its team, especially Sleep Talk Snorlax, although there is a good chance the Suicune team will gain a free turn or two out of it. Also, unboosted Double-Edge crits are a fairly big threat to Suicune (as they are to similar Pokemon like Umbreon and Miltank).

**Exeggutor**: Exeggutor can bother Suicune, particularly if it is compelled to Rest and does not have a strong means to threaten the Grass type. If Exeggutor is running Psychic, then even with Suicune's great defensive bulk, Special Defense drops on Suicune caused by Leech Seed is a nuisance to Suicune, as it wears down Suicune's HP and can allow for more offensive opposing Pokemon to come in and regain a bit of health while enabling them to set up. Additionally, despite Suicune's bulk, Explosion from Exeggutor deals significant amounts of damage, nearly OHKOing it if it lands a high roll for damage. Suicune's counterplay lies in landing Toxic or Ice Beam on Exeggutor, both of which significantly restrict its longevity.

**Gengar**: Gengar can be another threat to Suicune with its threatening SpA stat; perhaps even more deadly to Suicune, however, is its access to Explosion, which, as with Exeggutor, can take out Suicune if it has been previously chipped, or it can just deal significant amounts of damage. If Suicune has previously been compelled to Rest, Gengar can take advantage of this to use Thunderbolt and then Explosion, especially if Suicune is not able to generate counterplay via Sleep Talk.

I think Explosion users in general should be a category, as using Explosion on the Water-type then attempting to sweep with Machamp/Charizard/Jynx is a fairly common strategy for teams based around those Pokemon. This can include Cloyster/Steelix/Golem etc, not just these two Pokemon.

I'd also mention Vaporeon's ability to potentially take advantage of non-Roar Suicune and Heal Bell Miltank/Blissey as ways to combat Suicune poisoning Cloyster/Starmie/etc in this section.


Overall there is quite a lot of good content here so well done on that, though there is also quite a lot of unnecessary content in my view. I am happy to discuss any of this and will check in again once you've responded to or made edits according to the above.

 

[Iguana]

Hello!

Thanks very much, Earthworm, for the thorough comments on my analysis. You and I discussed some of these over Discord, and I implemented much of what you recommended. I reworked the introduction as well, since I felt like it wasn't quite working before. Feel free to read this over again, and let me know what you think!

 

[Earthworm]

[OVERVIEW]

Suicune is one of the best blanket check Pokemon in the GSC OU metagame. Given its impressive defensive stats, Suicune is able to function as a decent check to a lot of offensive threats, such as Curse Snorlax, Nidoking, Growth sweepers, and more.

I don't like listing Growth sweepers here; it is really only good against Vaporeon and only if it has Roar which is too much to explain in this sentence. I would suggest replacing it with something like Marowak, Machamp, or Charizard.

As there are many viable Water types in the GSC OU metagame, Suicune will sometimes draw comparisons to such Pokemon as Vaporeon or Starmie. Suicune derives metagame value largely from two of its attributes: one is through its defensive bulk; two is through the fact that almost every Pokemon in the metagame is hindered by the combination of Water-type moves and Toxic (the only exception is Tentacruel), both of which Suicune wield.

I think this can be improved to tie things into each other with some minor adjustments. The current text says that comparisons are drawn between the Pokemon, but doesn't really attempt to contrast them. Vaporeon has sweeping potential but fears heavy hits from powerful Ground-types and Snorlax, whereas Suicune takes hits from even Marowak adequately. Starmie takes on Machamp and Charizard a bit more effectively, has Rapid Spin, and threatens Gengar more, but it fears status a lot, making it risky to use without a Heal Bell user and is OHKOed by STAB Thunder unlike Suicune. Suicune's huge bulk makes it a much better Toxic user since it is capable of trading hits with nearly anything other than Zapdos and Raikou. You don't necessarily have to mention all of that, but you could expand on the comparison beyond just the implications being made here.

[SET]
name: Defensive Wall
Suicune @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Toxic / Ice Beam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Roar

Please check the required analysis format

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
========
...
The combination of Toxic and a Water-type move is remarkably effective on Suicune against almost all Pokemon in the GSC OU metagame. The only viable exception is Tentacruel, which is immune to Toxic and has both Water typing (so ineffective damage from Surf) and an exceptionally high SpD stat.

I would prefer notable over viable just because Venusaur is listed on the viability rankings. You also don't need to go into as much detail here, I think it should be obvious enough that Tentacruel is Toxic immune and resists Water.

Toxic can be substituted, however, for Ice Beam, and there are a few reasons to consider it on this set: One is its ability to hit Grass types such as Exeggutor hard, which is important since Surf would only do marginal damage to them.

Toxic is quite effective against Exeggutor already so I would prefer if this was only mentioned briefly, possibly alongside the Zapdos mention in the following sentence.

Roar also provides protection against trappers in the GSC OU metagame, including Mean Look Umbreon and PerishTrap Misdreavus. That check is quite important as both Umbreon and Misdreavus are bulky enough to stall out Suicune, and losing a defensive backbone like Suicune can cripple a team.

I don't like this second sentence because switching out to a phazer is a perfectly adequate solution to this problem. You could mention instead that running Roar on Suicune can potentially free up other Pokemon to run RestTalk, such as Raikou and Skarmory.

One option is to use both Sleep Talk and Roar. While this results in a loss of coverage, the combination of Sleep Talk and Roar is potent to phaze out opposing Pokemon either to accrue Spikes damage on them or to ensure that they are unable to set up offensively, such as through a Curse or Growth boost.

I am fine with this being mentioned but you need to mention that Roar must be used second to work, i.e. if you call Roar with Sleep Talk against a Snorlax using Curse, it isn't going to work.

Included in the rationale for an Ice Beam and Sleep Talk combo is that this allows for a 2/3 chance for Suicune to get an offensive move when using Sleep Talk. This is especially helpful to contend with Pokemon that are threatening to stall teams like Nidoking. Additionally, this provides Suicune with a better chance even while Resting to hit threatening Pokemon that use Substitute, such as Exeggutor.

I would suggest moving this into the earlier paragraph about Ice Beam and removing the second sentence because I think it's a very uncommon scenario. Also, you can potentially mention Marowak as another Pokemon that Suicune would prefer to be able to roll Ice Beam against while sleeping.

Among the roles that Suicune plays in the GSC OU metagame is providing a solid check to Nidoking. Given its solid defensive bulk, even normally powerful STAB moves from Nidoking like Earthquake are unable to cause significant damage to Suicune that it cannot shrug off via either Leftovers recovery or Rest.

Nidoking only has one powerful STAB move.

Important for Suicune to watch out for, however, is Thief on the switch-in, as that will take away Leftovers from Suicune, which is an important source of consistent recovery for it; Lovely Kiss, which can prevent Suicune from Resting, allowing Nidoking to continually chip it if the Suicune is not running Sleep Talk; and Thunder, which, as with Raikou and Zapdos, hits Suicune hard despite its good defensive bulk. It is wise to scout the Nidoking set first before assuming Suicune can check it effectively.

A couple things with this paragraph: I think an amateur GSC player might not be able to identify that Nidoking is a huge threat to stall teams, so mentioning that could help understand why having a Suicune is particularly desirable against it. Another thing, Suicune is simply not a "solid check" to Nidoking if it doesn't have Sleep Talk. It isn't worth mentioning that Suicune should fear Lovely Kiss in my opinion--if it doesn't have Sleep Talk, it will probably struggle to deal with Nidoking because Nidoking has a tendency to find openings against defensive teams and Suicune can only come in safely so many times before it will either be forced to Rest or go down. Scouting a Nidoking for its set is also not something that usually comes to mind when thinking of how to fight it using Suicune, since nothing really wants its Leftovers stolen typically and if Suicune is your RestTalker then you are typically going to want to be throwing it in against Nidoking regularly. Nevertheless, I don't object to mentioning that Thief can be something that you'd prefer Suicune not to have to take in some games, since I agree it can be critical in some games for it to keep its passive recovery.

As was just alluded to in the discussion about checking Nidoking, one move players must pay careful attention to avoid letting land on Suicune is Thief. Losing Leftovers can be crippling for Suicune, as it provides a crucial means of recovery over a battle, particularly if Suicune needs to absorb attacks while it is Resting. Also, if the Rapid Spin Pokemon for a team with Suicune has been KOd and a Spike can still be set up, this means Suicune can lose a large amount of HP if it is compelled to switch in continuously. Pokemon like Jynx, Nidoking, Gengar, and others can do this and must be carefully guarded against.

Please include this in summary in the above paragraph.

Suicune is among the best phazers in the metagame when it is running Roar. Scouting an opponent's sets beforehand is important for this, though, such as identifying whether a Snorlax is Rest and Sleep Talk or just Rest, or whether a set has powerful type coverage that can hit Suicune hard, like Thunder. Watching out for potential Explosion/Self-Destruct users is also critical while using Suicune, as those are common moves to attempt to KO it. Additionally, knowing what Suicune can withstand ahead of time is helpful. Suicune is able to survive three hits of Double-Edge from Snorlax, so calcing and planning ahead is quite important in the course of a battle.

All of this paragraph can be moved to more appropriate locations than this paragraph as well. Let me know if you need help with this.

Team Options
=============
...
Miltank is another good partner in tandem with Suicune, particularly for very stall-oriented teams. Miltank is able to withstand powerful and even STAB attacks from Snorlax and use Growl to undo the Curse boosts along with Milk Drink to restore its HP. This is particularly helpful to Suicune because with Snorlax's solid SpD stat, it is relatively unconcerned with attacks like Surf. Toxic damage is an option for Suicune against Snorlax, but many sets will run Rest, so this ends up not being effective in taking it down. Miltank also provides excellent support via Hell Bell, which can assist Suicune in waking up more rapidly than the normal three turns.

I'd prefer if Miltank was listed further down after the Rapid Spin users since I think they are more critical.

Rapid Spin support is critical for teams with Suicune as well, as consistent damage via Spikes restricts Suicune from having a strong impact on the game. Each viable Rapid Spinner provides support in its own way. Golem, for example, can be a good means to absorb powerful attacks from Snorlax (unless it is running Curse and Earthquake, which can hit Golem hard), and it has the ability to phaze out Pokemon to accrue more damage on opposing teams. Other Rapid Spin support options include Starmie, which is an effective Pokemon in GSC OU in how it can Recover consistently and also has sizable SpA and Speed stats; Cloyster and Forretress, which can function as both Spikes setters and Rapid Spinners; and Tentacruel, which has an outstanding SpD stat on top of an sizable SpA stat with good STAB offensive options, as with Starmie.

More than just the Rapid Spin support it provides, Forretress can be an excellent partner alongside Suicune in GSC OU. The rationale is that if the Suicune set includes Roar, then the combination of a solid Spikes setter in Forretress and a bulky phazer in Suicune results in being able to accrue damage effectively on an opponent's team due to Spikes. Something similar can be said for Cloyster + Suicune, but the issue lies in running multiple Water-type Pokemon on the same team. This not only magnifies a weakness to very common and highly viable Electric-type Pokemon like Raikou and Zapdos; it also places a greater burden on a team's Electric-type checks. Lastly, Forretress' immunity to Toxic is not to be overlooked, seeing as though that is often a chief means to cripple some other Rapid Spinners in the metagame, like Golem and Cloyster.

Please combine these two paragraphs and take out the "other rapid spin options" since it doesn't mention any synergy with Suicune specifically and they are not synergistic in typing, aside from Forretress which is already covered in the next paragraph.

For a more balanced team, Nidoking can provide a nice role alongside Suicune. In part why is that Nidoking has among the most outstanding coverage options at its disposal in the GSC OU metagame. It is wise to examine team coverage gaps to see which moves might be most useful on a Nidoking set alongside Suicune and the remaining team members. Among such movepool options is Thief, which is extremely helpful to steal Leftovers off an opposing Pokemon. That makes Toxic from Suicune all the more devastating since opposing Pokemon afflicted with it that have also been Thieved will no longer have Leftovers as a source of recovery.

You can also mention that it can pivot into Electric attacks aimed at Suicune.

Similar to how Miltank's support against physically offensive foes can only extend so far, support against powerful Special Attackers like Zapdos may require additional support than just Raikou, especially if the team is oriented towards a stall approach. An option here is Blissey. Possessing the best HP stat by far in the metagame and a very strong Special Defense stat as well, Blissey is a wall that is quite hard to break. Blissey can utilize a variety of support/defensive moves, and while the pp in Soft-Boiled is not unlimited, it can be effective in wearing down opponents' teams over time.

I think you can mention Blissey and Miltank together in one paragraph dedicated to Heal Bell supporters for Roar Suicune. There is again a bit too much information here in my opinion.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
============

The primary Suicune set incorporates most viable moves, but there are a couple of other options that may be considered. Hydro Pump is a possibility, and this represents Suicune's strongest STAB move available to it. Blizzard is a very niche move possibility, but it can hit Pokemon weak to Ice-type moves even harder than Ice Beam. The drawbacks of Blizzard, as with Hydro Pump, are pp and accuracy. pp is ever important to conserve in GSC OU, so 8 pp to a move means a player is under tremendous pressure to use each move very wisely. Additionally, Blizzard does not have a greater chance to freeze an opposing Pokemon than Ice Beam does--both have a 10% chance to freeze.

Please remove Blizzard.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Snorlax**: Snorlax can be a threat to Suicune, particularly as Double Edge does a sizable amount of damage and Double Edge crits are crippling. While hitting Snorlax with Toxic is a strong means to force it to Rest, a Snorlax at full or close to full HP can switch into a Suicune that is preparing to Rest rather freely, and at that point, it can Curse or use Belly Drum to pose a serious threat. Running Roar on Suicune can disallow Snorlax from setting up like this, but that also likely means that Suicune is not able to do anything while it Rests. Running a combination of Rest, Sleep Talk, and Roar has the potential to thwart Snorlax from setting up, even as Suicune is Resting.

It can't stop Snorlax from setting up while asleep because Roar fails if it does not happen second.

**Growth sweepers**: If Suicune is not running Roar, Growth sweepers like Espeon and Vaporeon can become threats (Jolteon already is very much a threat to Suicune). Vaporeon with Heal Bell support can especially be a nuisance given that Toxic, Suicune's most viable offensive option to pressure Vaporeon, will no longer afflict it, and Vaporeon will be able to wake up from Resting more rapidly. Espeon's set in particular with the potential to Baton Pass Growth boosts to other Pokemon is dangerous if Suicune is not running Roar to phaze them out. This plays very much into the player's consideration of whether or not to run Roar on the Suicune set.

Please remove the sentence about Heal Bell support because RestTalk is adequate already for Toxic. Also, I think Growth BP Vaporeon is equally problematic for non-Roar Suicune, so I would not say that the attribute of being dangerous to Suicune with Growth BP is particular to Espeon.

**Exeggutor**: Exeggutor can bother Suicune, particularly if it is compelled to Rest and does not have a strong means to threaten the Grass type. If Exeggutor is running Psychic, then even with Suicune's great defensive bulk, Special Defense drops on Suicune along with Leech Seed are nuisances, as they wear down Suicune's HP and can allow for more offensive opposing Pokemon to come in and regain a bit of health while they set up or just fire off a free move. Additionally, despite Suicune's bulk, Explosion from Exeggutor deals significant amounts of damage, nearly OHKOing it if it lands a high roll. Suicune's counterplay lies in landing Toxic or Ice Beam on Exeggutor, both of which significantly restrict its longevity.

I find it odd that Leech Seed is mentioned but Giga Drain is not. Giga Drain has a chance to 3HKO Suicune.

**Gengar**: Gengar can be another threat to Suicune with its threatening SpA stat; perhaps even more deadly to Suicune, however, is its access to Explosion, which, as with Exeggutor, can take out Suicune if it has been previously chipped, or it can just deal significant amounts of damage. If Suicune has previously been compelled to Rest, Gengar can take advantage of this to use Thunderbolt and then Explosion, especially if Suicune is not able to generate counterplay via Sleep Talk.

I don't think this adequately explains the Gengar / Suicune matchup. Gengar is great against Suicune because it is immune to Toxic and threatens it with heavy damage, so Suicune will generally be switching out of Gengar, leaving Gengar without the opportunity to use Explosion against it regardless. Gengar is also a big annoyance for common teammates of Suicune's like Raikou and Forretress, especially alongside Zapdos or Raikou.

**Explosion/Self Destruct Pokemon**: Among Suicune's biggest threats in the GSC OU metagame are Pokemon with access to Explosion or Self Destruct. This is because while Suicune can survive many powerful attacks and has great defensive stats, the base powers of Explosion and Self-Destruct are too significant for Suicune to withstand. Some wielders of these moves have already been mentioned here, but they bear repeating. Exeggutor, Golem, Gengar, and Snorlax all pose serious threats to Suicune for this reason. While only Golem and Snorlax out of that list have the ability to OHKO Suicune with Explosion or Self Destruct respectively, the enormous chip damage caused by the other Pokemon using the same moves is crippling.

Cloyster, Forretress, and Steelix are also worth listing here. You can also mention that the threat from Explosion users is particularly dangerous because these Pokemon are commonly paired with sweepers that Suicune is relied upon to handle, like Machamp and Charizard.

 

[Iguana]

Thanks again for the extensive comments, Earthworm. I have implemented the changes you suggested and am ready for the next step!

 

[Earthworm]

[OVERVIEW]
Starmie is a very effective and versatile Pokémon in GSC OU, being able to provide Rapid Spin and defensive support or opt for a more threatening, offensive set that can threaten Gengar while still contending with Pokemon like Charizard and Machamp.

I think with the "offensive set" label you are referring to the Psychic/Surf set. I would not consider this an offensive or threatening set, though.

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
========
Sleep Talk enables Suicune to use moves while Resting, such as Toxic, which, if it lands on opposing offensive Pokemon, will diminish their longevity and/or compel them to Rest.

This is true but I think what you really want to express is that it enables Suicune to continue to dissuade foes from switching in, even while it is asleep.

Suicune is among the best phazers in the metagame when it is running Roar. Scouting an opponent's sets beforehand is important for this, though, such as identifying whether a Snorlax is Rest and Sleep Talk or just Rest, or whether a set has powerful type coverage that can hit Suicune hard, like Thunder.

Thunder from Snorlax does less than Double-Edge against Suicune. It does pose a threat to Suicune but it's from the chance of paralysis rather than hitting hard. But I think the overall point here about needing to scout with Suicune isn't necessary -- the only move that really poses a significant threat that you might not see coming is Thief.

Team Options
=============
Miltank is able to withstand powerful and even STAB attacks from Snorlax and use Growl to undo the Curse boosts along with Milk Drink to restore its HP.

Please change this to "powerful STAB attacks".

This is particularly helpful to Suicune because with Snorlax's solid SpD stat, it is relatively unconcerned with attacks like Surf. Toxic damage is an option for Suicune against Snorlax, but many sets will run Rest, so this ends up not being effective in taking it down.

Forcing Snorlax to Rest is a very effective means of handling and taking advantage of Snorlax for defensive teams. I think you want to instead say that while Suicune can take Snorlax's unboosted attacks, it is unable to handle Curse Snorlax in the long term, whereas Miltank can typically take Curse Snorlax on as long as it has Milk Drink PP.

Depending on what threatens the team, options such as Skarmory or Steelix may provide the extra boost of physical defensive needed alongside a potential Miltank. Skarmory is an excellent check to Curse Machamp and Curse Heracross, which can be quite threatening offensive Pokemon.

Please also include Belly Drum Snorlax here as it's one of the main reasons Skarmory is needed.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Tentacruel**: Tentacruel is an interesting Suicune check. Unlike with Raikou or Zapdos, it does not pose an immediate threat, particularly with Suicune's excellent defensive stats. However, there is little Suicune can do back to Tentacruel. It is immune to Toxic given its Poison typing, and with its Special Defense stat as high as it is and its Water typing, Surf from Suicune hardly damages it. On top of this, while Suicune Rests, Tentacruel is able to fire off free moves, which can consist of Rapid Spinning off a Spike set up on the opposing team, Swords Dancing to boost moves like Sludge Bomb, using Toxic to hit a Pokemon switching in, or any other moves that the Tentacruel set might run. Tentacruel can most threaten Suicune through its Swords Dance + Substitute set (also known as Druidcruel), which allows it to boost the power of Sludge Bomb.

The main point that needs to be gotten across with Tentacruel is that it is a big threat that can use Suicune as setup fodder especially if Suicune lacks Roar. It's also a dangerous Pokemon to allow in for free because it can Sludge Bomb many of its checks on the switch, potentially inflicting poison that forces them to Rest, which in turn makes Tentacruel even more dangerous the next time it is given an opportunity.

**Snorlax**: ...
Running a combination of Rest, Sleep Talk, and Roar has the potential to thwart Snorlax from setting up and potentially use an offensive move like Surf while Resting (though, as before mentioned, if Sleep Talk rolls Roar, it will fail). The other aspect to consider is how formidable Snorlax's Special Defense stat is; even with STAB, Surf from Suicune will not scare away a Snorlax at high HP. Knowing what Suicune can withstand ahead of time is helpful. Suicune is able to survive three hits of Double-Edge from Snorlax, for example.

I think these sentences don't offer much useful information. The Roar set is arguably not even better against Snorlax than the Toxic set. I would just remove this part. If you want to keep parts of it, the part about surviving three hits from Double-Edge is useful.


There isn't too much more to change here so I am fine to give this QC 1/2 after these changes have been implemented. If you aren't sure if you've implemented them satisfactorily feel free to send me a message on Discord.

 

[M Dragon]

Given its impressive defensive stats, Suicune is able to function as a decent check to a lot of offensive threats, such as Curse Snorlax, Nidoking, Marowak, and more.

Suicune does not really check Curse Snorlax. Sure, it can phaze it, but Curselax will beat Suicune in the long run unless Suicune also has Curse.
Suicune is, however, one of the best non set up Snorlax counters in the game, since it is not 3HKOed by DE.

Starmie is a very effective and versatile Pokémon in GSC OU, being able to provide Rapid Spin and defensive support while still threatening Gengar and contending with Pokemon like Charizard and Machamp. However, unlike with Suicune, STAB Thunder OHKOs Starmie, and statuses greatly hinder it unless there is Heal Bell support

While Vaporeon and Suicune are somewhat similar, Starmie and Suicune are very different (vaporeon is more offensive because it has access to Growth and Suicune is bulkier in the physical side, but they are similar). Starmie has a secondary typing, it is fast and it has access to spin, recover and screens, while Suicune is much bulkier. They do very different things.

Suicune derives metagame value largely from two of its attributes: one is through its defensive bulk; two is through the fact that the combination of Water-type moves and Toxic, both of which Suicune wields, hinders almost every Pokemon in the metagame (the only exceptions are Tentacruel and Venusaur). While the main focus of this analysis will center around Suicune's effective ability to defend against and stall out opposing Pokemon, it is important to not lose sight of how Suicune does have a solid SpA stat as well, which can fuel powerful STAB options like Surf and Hydro Pump.

I think you should put more emphasis in Suicune's role Toxicing the opposing team, which is especially effective with Spikes support, making mons like Machamp or Exeggutor lose 25% of its HP when they come in.
Suicune is not only a pokemon that can stall out opposing pokemon, it is one of the best pokemons at spreading Toxic over the opposing team, adding more passive damage together with Spikes, with the ability to cause even more Toxic / Spikes damage with Roar
Unlike Umbreon, Suicune can actually threaten Steel types

This set is designed to defend against some offensive meta threats and stall them out via Toxic damage accruing and/or pp stalling through consistent Resting.

One of the main reasons why Toxic is very useful is the passive damage when the pokemon switches in. If you for example toxic a Zapdos, every time the toxiced Zapdos switches in will lose HP, and with some smart plays you can slowly weaken that Zapdos until the point where something can abuse a weakened Zapdos.
Toxic is not only useful to force a rest in something. The passive damage it generates can be a huge strategic advantage.

Sleep Talk and Roar both undoubtedly have merits on Suicune sets, but if it comes down to a choice of one over the other, Sleep Talk is usually preferable.

I disagree with this. While Sleep Talk is more common, both are great options.
Suicune is one of the best sleep talkers, being able to beat a lot of mixed attackers, but roar can be very useful especially in Toxic + Spikes based team.

Team Options

You should definitely mention Spikes. Suicune works much better with Spikes because as I explained earlier, it works really well with Toxic, adding a lot of passive damage, which is very important in a lot of toxic based defensive teams.
When talking about Raikou, you should mention how Raikou is the best phazer in the game when there are Spikes on the field, because it can easily threaten Skarmory and Zapdos with Thunder(bolt), so the other player is forced to bring in a spikes weak pokemon only to be roared, adding more passive damage.
Probably mention also a ghost type to block spin.

Skarmory is an excellent check to Curse Machamp

No, Skarmory is not even a good check to Curse Machamp, and the reason is CC's high CH rate and the possibility of Fire Blast. I have seen so many Machamps beating Skarmory teams.
In fact, I would say that a restalk toxic suicune has greater odds of beating standard Machamp than the standard Skarmory in the long run, because Toxic is really bad for Machamp and a +1 CC does not 2hko Suicune.
Skarmory and Suicune work really well together though.

Hydro Pump is a possibility, and this is Suicune's strongest STAB move.

HPump Suicune is awful. If you want a water with HPump don't use Suicune.




Basically, you don't say anything about Spikes + Toxic, or about passive damage in general, and that is one of the biggest strenghts of Suicune in GSC OU.

Suicune is a pokemon that is impossible to kill without exploding (and even then, it can survive some explosions) and is one of the best Toxic spreaders because unlike other defensive pokemons such as Umbreon, it can easily threaten steels and a lot of poisons with a strong Surf, and Toxic's passive damage (especially if combined with Spikes) can be devasting for the other team, especially with something like Roar Raikou.

 

[Caetano93]

mc56556 do you plan on finish this analysis?

 

[M Dragon]

QC 2/2
I think the analysis looks very good now

Some minor things though:
1) When you talk about Suicune's bulk at the start, you could probably give some numbers to illustrate it (especially the physical bulk, which is the main difference with Vaporeon, since Suicune is around a 30% bulkier than Vaporeon in the physical side, while their special bulk is nearly the same), for example Suicune is never 3HKOed by Snorlax D-E (so it walls non set-up Snorlax), it is never 2HKOed by an EQ Marowak and it is never OHKOed by a max attack STAB Return (BDLax / BD Clefable) and it has a very high chance of surviving a CH Cross Chop from +1 Machamp

2) Although you mention it in different places in the analysis, I think you should also say in the second paragraph or the set description (where you explain Toxic) how it forces mons like Curselax to rest, so they can't use Suicune as a set up fodder.

3) When you say " This is an effective measure to prevent Pokémon from switching in freely even while Suicune is sleeping. ", you should probably just say that sleep talk prevents Suicune from giving free turns in general, not just from switching in freely. Very minor.

4) The part at the end of the set explanation where you talk about Thief and how it limits Suicune should probably be in "Checks and Counters"

5) Maybe add a sentence in "Team Options" for roar, in the same way you added a paragraph for spikes, including mons such as Zapdos, Raikou, Steelix, Golem, Skarm...

 

[Adeleine]

Add/Fix Remove Comment
(AC)/(RC): Add/Remove Comma

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[OVERVIEW]
Suicune is one of the best blanket check Pokemon in the GSC OU metagame, (period -> comma) Given its impressive defensive stats, Suicune is able to function as a decent check to a lot of offensive threats, using its impressive defensive stats to decently check many threats such as non-Curse Snorlax, Nidoking, Marowak, Tyranitar, and Charizard. Suicune does particularly well against physically offensive threats, (AC) since Water-types have no physical weaknesses in GSC. Suicune it has no physical weaknesses. It will sometimes draw comparisons to other viable Water-type Pokemon like Vaporeon or and Starmie. However, while Vaporeon can also run a RestTalk set, its lack of physical bulk means it is far inferior as a defensive a far inferior wall and should instead focus on setting up a sweep with Growth. Starmie is very effective and versatile with Rapid Spin, a resistance to Fighting, and Recover, while still being able to threaten offensive Pokemon like Gengar. But unlike with Suicune, STAB Thunder OHKOes Thunders OHKO Starmie, and status greatly hinders it unless there is Heal Bell support. Suicune derives metagame value largely from two of its attributes: one is through its defensive bulk; two is through the fact that its Also, since Suicune's combination of Surf and Toxic hinders almost every Pokemon in the metagame, giving it has a surprising offensive presence of its own for such a defensive Pokemon. (does this still flow?)

[SET]
name: Defensive Tank
move 1: Surf
move 2: Toxic / Ice Beam
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
========
This set is designed to wall some offensive threats and threaten them in return with powerful special attacks and Toxic. To illustrate the effectiveness of Suicune's physical bulk in the metagame: it is never OHKOed by +6 Return from Snorlax or and +2 Earthquake from Marowak never OHKO it, unboosted Double-Edge from Snorlax never 3HKOes Suicune it, and +1 critical hit Cross Chop from Machamp only OHKOes 10.3% of the time. Suicune is a defensive wall, to be sure, but it is surprisingly challenging to switch into without being put into entering a disadvantageous position. Suicune distinguishes itself This offensive presence, including STAB Surf threatening Steel- and Ground-types, distinguishes Suicune from other defensive walls—most notably Umbreon, which it often draws comparisons to--because of its offensive potential and ability to threaten Steel- and Ground-types with its STAB Surf.

Suicune is perhaps the best Toxic spreader in the GSC OU metagame. It is of vital importance GSC OU. Toxic is extremely beneficial ("vital" feels a bit unwarranted bc its slashed. feel free to tinker) to this set, as it deters threats that lack Rest, such as phazer phazing Zapdos and Cloyster, and it is even problematic for Curse Snorlax, which will be forced to use Rest not long after it becomes poisoned. Additionally, the combination of Toxic and a Water-type move is remarkably effective against almost all Pokemon in the GSC OU metagame, especially those that lack RestTalk. The only notable exception is Tentacruel, which is immune to Toxic and has both Water typing and an exceptionally high Special Defense stat. Landing Toxic on integral Pokemon like Starmie or and Cloyster can make an enormous difference in determining whether Spikes can be maintained. the team can keep Spikes up. Additionally, spreading poison on an opposing team in tandem with Roar or Whirlwind from either Suicune itself or a teammate, such as Raikou, Zapdos, and or Skarmory, makes for a nasty combination to inflict passive damage consistently.

Toxic can be substituted, however, for Ice Beam, and there are a few reasons to consider it on this set: hitting Grass-types such as Exeggutor hard, hitting Zapdos and Dragonite hard, and taking advantage of Suicune's longevity to aim to inflict freezes, since a freeze in a GSC OU game is immensely valuable. which are immensely crippling in GSC. (I imagine this checks out with your thinking? lmk if not though) Additionally, an Ice Beam and Sleep Talk combo allows for Ice Beam gives a 2/3 chance for Suicune to get an offensive move when using Sleep Talk. This is especially helpful to contend with Pokemon that are threatening to threaten stall teams like Nidoking and Marowak. However, using Ice Beam means dropping Toxic, which dropping Toxic makes Suicune setup fodder for Cloyster and Snorlax, which are two of the most common Pokemon in the metagame.

Sleep Talk prevents Pokemon (removed E accent) from having free turns while Suicune is sleeping and enables it to effectively absorb Sleep-inducing moves lets it effectively absorb sleep from Pokemon like Jynx, Nidoking, Snorlax, and Exeggutor. It is especially crucial for Nidoking, as Lovely Kiss is standard on many sets, its Thunder usually 3HKOes Suicune, and Thief threatens to substantially reduce Suicune's longevity. Alternatively, Roar provides a means to can prevent offensive Pokemon like Vaporeon and Snorlax from boosting, and, in tandem with Toxic, to wear them down over time. Roar can make Suicune a threatening force if paired with Spikes support, particularly given the aforementioned inability of since so much of the metagame to can't resist the combination of Toxic and a Water-type move. Surf. However, without Sleep Talk, when Suicune is eventually forced to use Rest, it Suicune's inevitable Rest will provide free turns to dangerous foes such as Marowak and Nidoking, against which it is usually first in its team's the first line of defense. Sleep Talk is critical for Suicune to be able to combat Nidoking, as Lovely Kiss is standard on many sets, its Thunder usually 3HKOes Suicune, and Thief threatens to substantially reduce Suicune's longevity. Thief is especially dangerous to the defensive teams of which Suicune is often a part, and so it is important to be wary of common Thief users in general, generally wary when against common Thief users, such as Nidoking, Jynx, Exeggutor, and Gengar, and when faced with one of those, try to determine which teammate's item is least critical in that particular game.

Team Options
=============
Perhaps not as ironic as it may seem, a great partner with Suicune is Raikou. This is due to how (i dont think this is that ironic. if you want to do something else instead here, just lmk) Raikou is the best Zapdos and Raikou check in the GSC OU metagame, both of which are very powerful and present large threats to Suicune. Raikou is able to resist normally very powerful attacks from both Zapdos and Raikou with ease. In return, Suicune can easily withstand any attacks from Ground-types, which can force Raikou to switch out. An option to consider is RestTalk Raikou, (AC) to ensure that Raikou is not compelled to burn off Sleep turns to return to impacting the game. Raikou also enables a team to generate some offense, not only with its powerful attacks, but also with Roar. If Spikes are already up on the opponent's field, then Roar can be used to accrue hazards damage, which is especially effective if foes have been poisoned. The fact that Raikou threatens every Spikes-immune Pokemon also makes it easier to force switches and rack up passive damage. which lets it continuously impact the game while still handling Zapdos and Raikou. Raikou also gives a team more offense, both with powerful attacks and with Roar and Spikes support like Suicune can, especially since it threatens every Spikes-immune Pokemon. (lmk if anything doesnt check out or is missed and is important) (also, does both raikou and suicune using roar give good synergy? if yes, i'd mention that somewhere.)

Rapid Spin support is desirable for teams with Suicune as well, as consistent damage via Spikes can result in it being worn down more leave it worn down quickly against dangerous foes such as Nidoking, Marowak, and Rhydon. Golem is one of the most reliable providers of Rapid Spin support, as the threat of spinners, as its STAB Earthquake deters spinblockers from switching in. It can also absorb numerous attacks from non-Earthquake Snorlax and threaten foes such as Zapdos with Explosion. Cloyster makes for an excellent partner to Golem, as it can lay Spikes to assist Suicune and its team to create longer term pressure. However, using Cloyster alongside Suicune can amplify a weakness to Electric, Cloyster and Forretress can set Spikes to help Suicune, especially Roar sets, and its team create longer term pressure. However, Cloyster and Suicune stack an Electric weakness, which can be dangerous against common offensive combinations such as Gengar and + Zapdos. Forretress can be a more effective long-term choice for a Spiker thanks to its Toxic immunity and Forretress has a useful defensive typing against Snorlax that lack Fire-type moves and Explosion users. However, users, but it can struggle to safely remove Spikes against spinblockers and is vulnerable on the special side. (comma -> period) especially to unexpected Fire-type attacks. Adding a Ghost-type like Misdreavus or Gengar to your team to spinblock is a worthwhile consideration to further the aim of persistently wearing down foes. Having a Ghost-type also provides opportunities to anticipate and A Ghost-type like Misdreavus or Gengar can spinblock to preserve pressure from Spikes and (lmk if something was removed and shouldnt have been above in paragraph) nullify Explosions that are aimed at Suicune, which becomes easier when Suicune has poisoned the Explosion user. Non-phazing Non-Roar Suicune sets will appreciate a phazer teammate, such as Raikou, Golem, Skarmory, or Zapdos, to increase the damage dealt on opposing teams by from Spikes, deal with boosted Curse Snorlax that have been forced to use Rest, and prevent avoid being trapped by Mean Look Umbreon or Misdreavus. Skarmory also provides excellent defensive coverage against the most physically powerful foes, including Belly Drum Snorlax, Curse + Earthquake Snorlax, and Curse Heracross, and it also serves as a backup check to Marowak and Machamp.

Miltank is another good partner in tandem with Suicune. While Suicune is excellent at dealing with variants of Snorlax without Curse, it can struggle against Curse variants. Using Toxic against Curse Snorlax often works in the short term, as this compels it to use Rest; however, in the long run, Suicune is not able to sustain against endure Snorlax's boosted moves. To address this, Miltank's access to Growl can prevent Snorlax from increasing its Attack stat and stall it Growl can counteract Curse and stall Snorlax out of PP. Moreover, unlike Skarmory, Miltank can take on Curse Snorlax that have Fire- or Electric-type coverage attacks. Miltank It also provides excellent support to Suicune and its team via Hell Bell. This is particularly helpful if the Suicune set does not include Suicune lacks Sleep Talk. Blissey is another good Heal Bell support option, and unlike Miltank, it can also be effective in fending fend off Pokemon with powerful special attacks like Zapdos.

For a more balanced team, Nidoking can provide the needed offensive prowess needed to break open an opposing team more quickly. Its immunity to Electric makes it a good pivot against Zapdos and Raikou, which can help teammates such as Snorlax and Raikou avoid taking a hit and potential paralysis from Thunder. Nidoking's movepool features Thief, which is helpful to steal Leftovers off a key foe such as Zapdos or Snorlax that might be preventing Suicune from reaching maximum potential. Thief can also cripple a key foe such as Zapdos or Snorlax that is limiting Suicune.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
============
With Mirror Coat, Mirror Coat Suicune can withstand even powerful special attacks like Thunder from Zapdos and OHKO it in return. However, this comes at the cost of most of Suicune's health and requires Suicune it to be healthy to work. Additionally, adding Mirror Coat in lieu of another move will decrease Suicune's general decreases Suicune's effectiveness against physical attackers and foes such as Cloyster. This reduced effectiveness against physical attackers compromises its usefulness on defensive teams; (comma -> sc) yet, (AC) on the other hand, if Suicune appears among offensive teammates, this Mirror Coat may trigger increased caution from an opponent. The cost of using Mirror Coat is considerable, but if it can be pulled off successfully, the reward can be worthwhile. Overall, using Mirror Coat is costly but can be worthwhile. Another option is to use the combination of RestTalk and Roar together on the same set. Overall, this tends to decrease Suicune's effectiveness against most foes, (AC) due to the loss of a crucial moveslot and the fact that especially since Roar fails when called by Sleep Talk against a slower foe, but the set could work for teams in need of a status-absorbing, (AC) phazer phazing bulky Water-type.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Zapdos**: Zapdos is the greatest threat to Suicune in the metagame, easily 2HKOing it with its powerful Thunder. RestTalk Zapdos can easily deal with Toxic variants of Suicune, and its Spikes immunity means that it won't take consistent damage while switching in. While Ice Beam does 3HKO Zapdos, Suicune must risk a lot to attempt a KO. Phazer (I imagine "with roar or whirlwind" is adequate to this end, but lmk if like only phazer zapdos will twave on the switch or smth) Zapdos can also take advantage of Suicune being forced to switch in order to paralyze its checks with Thunder Wave or rack up Spikes damage with Roar or Whirlwind, although it must beware of Toxic if it lacks Rest.

**Raikou**: Raikou 2HKOes Zapdos with Thunder and Thunderbolt, whereas Suicune cannot even 4HKO it in return. RestTalk variants have virtually nothing to fear from Suicune, as they can easily cure themselves of poison. However, Roar variants will fear Toxic from Suicune, as they can be taken advantage of by Suicune's teammates when forced to use Rest.

**Tentacruel**: Tentacruel is not as common as Zapdos or Raikou, but it is one of the greatest threats to RestTalk Suicune. Its immunity to Toxic and high Special Defense allow it to switch in with impunity and set up Swords Dance boosts or a Substitute. Rapid Spin variants can also take easy advantage of Suicune to remove Spikes. However, Roar variants of Suicune, while still not able to harm Tentacruel, can readily prevent Tentacruel from using it as setup fodder. it from setting up.

**Snorlax**: While Suicune is a common initial switch-in to Snorlax, it primarily serves as an initial means of scouting to scout its set without having to send in a more passive Pokemon such as Skarmory. Hitting Snorlax with Toxic puts it Taking Toxic puts Snorlax in the undesirable position of having to use Rest, and a healthy Suicune is generally capable of taking even a +1 Double-Edge without being brought dangerously low. even a +1 Double-Edge generally can't bring Suicune dangerously low. However, in the long run, and especially if Spikes are is on Suicune's side of the field, it runs the risk of fainting fainting to a critical hit Double-Edge or being used as setup fodder for Curse or Belly Drum Snorlax while sleeping. Snorlax has chances to KO with a critical hit Double-Edge or set up Curse or Belly Drum while it's sleeping. Roar Suicune is capable of preventing setup temporarily, but, (AC) as with RestTalk + Toxic Suicune, will struggle in the long run. It goes without saying that Suicune with neither Roar nor Toxic is completely dominated by Snorlax. Snorlax has the advantage in the long run. It also completely dominates Suicune with neither Roar nor Toxic.

**Growth Sweepers**: Espeon and Vaporeon can break through Suicune's bulk by boosting their Special Attack setting up with Growth. Suicune's Surf is only a 4HKO on Espeon, and Espeon can potentially 3HKO with +1 Psychic, heal off Surf damage with Morning Sun, block Toxic with Substitute, or and use Baton Pass to send Special Attack boosts to a teammate. Vaporeon takes a pittance from Surf and usually has Rest to heal itself of Toxic or Baton Pass to pass Special Attack boosts to a teammate. At +5 Special Attack, Vaporeon can 3HKO Suicune with Surf. However, if Suicune has Roar, Vaporeon cannot use Suicune as setup fodder or achieve anything offensively until it is the last remaining Pokemon.

**Exeggutor**: While Exeggutor fears Toxic and Ice Beam from Suicune, it takes little from Surf and can regain any lost health with Giga Drain if Suicune stays in. Giga Drain has a solid chance of 3HKOing Suicune, which makes it risky for Suicune to stay in and fight. If Suicune is its team's primary status absorber, this can cause problems, as being forced to switch means that Exeggutor will have an opportunity to cripple Suicune's lets Exeggutor cripple its teammates. Explosion also does huge damage to Suicune, which could pave the way for a Rock-, Ground-, or Fire-type to wreak havoc.

**Gengar**: Gengar is quite annoying for Suicune, as it is one of the few Toxic-immune Pokemon that has an advantageous matchup. Its Thunder or Thunderbolt always 3HKOes Suicune, (AC) and the threat of Thief, Hypnosis, and Explosion targeting either Suicune or its teammates makes it risky to deal with. A full health Suicune can, however, take one hit from Gengar safely and hit it for substantial damage in return with Surf.

**Explosion and Self-Destruct**: While Suicune's bulk lets it withstand all but the strongest of attacks from the tier's most powerful threats, Pokemon with Explosion and Self-Destruct can instantly KO Suicune it with minimal chip damage or bring it to very low health. Exeggutor, Golem, Gengar, Cloyster, Forretress, Steelix, Snorlax, and Muk all pose serious threats to Suicune for this reason. With Suicune out of the picture, threats like Charizard, Nidoking, Tyranitar, Marowak, Moltres, and Dragonite can easily get out of hand, so Suicune should tread carefully when facing the aforementioned Explosion and Self-Destruct users, paying users. It should pay close attention to what teammates appear alongside them to determine whether Suicune's its health can be risked.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[mc56556, 483288]]
- Quality checked by: [[Earthworm, 15210], [M Dragon, 21345]
- Grammar checked by: [[Finland, 517429], [username2, userid2]]

i'll wait to stamp to take any questions/changes you may have/want and decide whether i want to bring any team options paragraphs together

particularly for more detailed, older generation analyses, id recommend looking at prose efficiency, whether through bulky or indirect structure (e.g. "Rapid Spin support is desirable for teams with Suicune" being bulkier than hypothetical "Suicune teams desire Rapid Spin support"), small adding-up bits of unneeded specification (eg "for teams" in the previous, "desirable with Suicune" and "Suicune desires" don't mention teams and don't lose information), and general information that doesn't tie back to Suicune in particular. That doesn't mean you need to catch and laser every minute efficiency opportunity, just a little orientation in writing and proofreading can go a good way

 

[Earthworm]

Thanks Finland, I have implemented your check on mc56556's behalf as he appears to be busy. I marked this as GP 1/2 but if you have any further changes please let me know. I've sent you a few messages on Discord regarding stuff I didn't implement verbatim and the reasons for that.

edit: Finland has confirmed this is now GP 1/2. Ready for second check.

 

[CryoGyro]

GP 2/2

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[OVERVIEW]
Suicune is one of the best blanket check Pokemon in the GSC OU metagame, using its impressive defensive stats to check many threats such as non-Curse Snorlax, Nidoking, Marowak, Tyranitar, and Charizard. Suicune does particularly well against physically offensive threats, since it has no physical weaknesses. It will sometimes draw comparisons to other viable Water-type Pokemon like Vaporeon and Starmie. However, while Vaporeon can also run a RestTalk set, its lack of physical bulk means it is a far inferior wall and should instead focus on setting up a sweep with Growth. Starmie is very effective and versatile with Rapid Spin, a resistance to Fighting, and Recover, while still being able to threaten offensive Pokemon like Gengar (this part is clunky and i'm wondering how important it is; it's not clear which of the other waters cannot do the same). But unlike with Suicune, STAB Thunders OHKO Starmie STAB Thunder OHKOes it, however, (mentioning suicune would mean comma overload) and status greatly hinders it unless there is Heal Bell support. Also, since Suicune's combination of Surf and Toxic hinders almost every Pokemon in the metagame, it has a surprising offensive presence of its own for such a defensive Pokemon.

(i don't love that most of the overview is spent comparing it to other water-types; the description of suicune's own merits is left a bit sparse, and i'm a little confused about it being one of the 'best' blanket checks when i've seen very little of it in my anecdotal casual spectating)

[SET]
name: Defensive Tank
move 1: Surf
move 2: Toxic / Ice Beam
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
========
This set is designed to wall some offensive threats and threaten them in return with powerful special attacks and Toxic. To illustrate the effectiveness of Suicune's physical bulk in the metagame: +6 Return from Snorlax and +2 Earthquake from Marowak never OHKO it, unboosted Double-Edge from Snorlax never 3HKOes it, and +1 critical hit Cross Chop from Machamp only OHKOes it 10.3% of the time. Suicune is a defensive wall, to be sure, but it is surprisingly challenging to switch into without entering a disadvantageous position. Its ability to threaten Steel- and Ground-types and its general offensive presence distinguishes Suicune distinguish it from other defensive walls—most notably Umbreon, which it often draws comparisons to. (so shouldn't it be in the overview too)

Suicune is perhaps the best Toxic spreader in GSC OU. Toxic is extremely beneficial to this set, as it deters threats that lack Rest, such as phazing Zapdos and Cloyster, and it is even problematic for Curse Snorlax, which will be forced to use Rest not long after it becomes poisoned. Additionally, the combination of Toxic and a Water-type move is remarkably effective against almost all Pokemon in the metagame, especially those that lack RestTalk. The only notable exception is Tentacruel, which is immune to Toxic and has both Water typing and an exceptionally high Special Defense stat. (think it's obvious enough) Landing Toxic on integral Pokemon like Starmie and Cloyster can make an enormous difference in determining whether the your team can keep Spikes up. Additionally, spreading poison on an opposing team in tandem with Roar or Whirlwind from either Suicune itself or a teammate, such as Raikou, Zapdos, or Skarmory, makes for a nasty combination to inflict passive damage consistently.

Toxic can be substituted, however, for Ice Beam, and there are a few reasons to consider it on this set However, Ice Beam can replace Toxic for a few good reasons: hitting Grass-types such as Exeggutor hard, hitting Zapdos and Dragonite hard, and taking advantage of Suicune's longevity to aim to possibly inflict freezes, which are immensely crippling in GSC. Additionally, Ice Beam gives a 2/3 chance for Suicune to get an offensive move when using Sleep Talk. This is especially helpful to contend with Pokemon that threaten stall teams like Nidoking and Marowak. However, dropping Toxic makes Suicune setup fodder for Cloyster and Snorlax, which are two of the most common Pokemon in the metagame.

Sleep Talk prevents Pokemon foes from having free turns while Suicune is sleeping and lets it Suicune effectively absorb sleep-inducing moves from Pokemon like Jynx, Nidoking, Snorlax, and Exeggutor. It is especially crucial for Nidoking, as whose Lovely Kiss is standard on many sets, its Thunder usually 3HKOes Suicune, and Thief threatens to substantially reduce Suicune's longevity. Alternatively, Roar can prevent offensive Pokemon like Vaporeon and Snorlax from boosting, and, in tandem with Toxic, wear them down over time. Roar can make Suicune a threatening force if paired with Spikes support, particularly since so much of the metagame struggles against the combination of Toxic and Surf. However, without Sleep Talk, Suicune's inevitable Rest will provide free turns to dangerous foes such as Marowak and Nidoking, against which it is usually the first line of defense. Thief is especially dangerous to the Suicune's usual defensive teams of which Suicune is often a part, so it is important to be generally wary when against common Thief users, such as Nidoking, Jynx, Exeggutor, and Gengar, and try to determine which teammate's item is least critical in that particular game.

Team Options
=============
Raikou is the best check to Zapdos and Raikou, (comma) check in the metagame, both of which are very powerful and present large threats to Suicune. In return, Suicune can easily withstand any attacks from Ground-types, (comma) which can force Raikou to switch out forcing Raikou out. An option to consider is RestTalk Raikou, which lets it continuously impact the game while still handling Zapdos and Raikou. Raikou can also give a team more offense, (comma) both with through powerful attacks and Roar alongside Spikes support. Once Suicune poisons Pokemon like Snorlax and Raikou, Raikou can later catch them on the switch with Roar, stacking Spikes and poison damage without letting them recover. Raikou also threatens every Spikes-immune Pokemon, racking up switches and passive damage.

Rapid Spin support is desirable with Suicune as well, as consistent damage via Spikes can leave it worn down quickly against dangerous foes such as Nidoking, Marowak, and Rhydon. Golem is one of the most reliable spinners, as its STAB Earthquake deters spinblockers from switching in. It can also absorb numerous attacks from non-Earthquake Snorlax and threaten foes such as Zapdos with Explosion. Cloyster and Forretress can set Spikes to help Suicune, especially Roar sets, and its team create longer term pressure. However, Cloyster and Suicune stack an Electric weakness, which can be dangerous against common offensive combinations such as Gengar + Zapdos. Forretress is immune to Toxic and has a useful defensive typing against Snorlax and Explosion users, but it can struggle to safely remove Spikes against spinblockers and is vulnerable on the special side specially frail. A Ghost-type like in Misdreavus or Gengar can spinblock to preserve pressure from Spikes and nullify Explosions that are aimed at Suicune, which becomes easier when Suicune has poisoned the Explosion user. Non-Roar Suicune sets will appreciate a phazer teammate, such as Raikou, Golem, Skarmory, or Zapdos, to increase the damage from Spikes damage, deal with boosted Curse Snorlax, and avoid being trapped by Mean Look Umbreon or Misdreavus. Skarmory also provides excellent defensive coverage against the most physically powerful foes, including Belly Drum Snorlax, Curse + Earthquake Snorlax, and Curse Heracross, and it serves as a backup check to Marowak and Machamp.

Miltank is another good Suicune partner in tandem with Suicune. While Suicune is excellent at dealing with Snorlax without Curse, it can struggle against Curse variants. Using Toxic against Curse Snorlax often works in the short term, as this compels it to use Rest; however, in the long run, Suicune is not able to endure Snorlax's boosted moves. To address this, Miltank's Growl can counteract Curse and stall Snorlax and stall it out of PP. Moreover, unlike Skarmory, Miltank can take on Curse Snorlax that have Fire- or Electric-type coverage. It also provides excellent support to Suicune and its team via Hell Bell. This is particularly helpful if Suicune lacks Sleep Talk. Blissey is another good Heal Bell support option, and unlike Miltank, it can fend off Pokemon with powerful special attacks like Zapdos.

For a more balanced team, Nidoking can provide the needed offensive prowess. Its immunity to Electric makes it a good pivot against Zapdos and Raikou, which can help teammates such as Snorlax and Raikou avoid taking a hit and potential paralysis from Thunder. Nidoking's Thief can also cripple a key foe limiting Suicune such as Zapdos or Snorlax that is limiting Suicune.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
============
Mirror Coat Suicune can withstand even powerful special attacks like Thunder from Zapdos and OHKO it in return. However, this comes at the cost of most of Suicune's health and requires it to be healthy to work. Additionally, adding Mirror Coat in lieu of another move it decreases Suicune's effectiveness against physical attackers and foes such as Cloyster. This compromises its usefulness on defensive teams; however, if appearing among offensive teammates, Suicune’s presence may trigger increased caution from an opponent. Overall, using Mirror Coat is costly but can be worthwhile. Another option is to use RestTalk and Roar together on the same set. Overall, this tends to decrease Suicune's effectiveness against most foes, as Roar replaces a coverage or status move and fails when called by Sleep Talk against a slower foe, but the set could work for teams in need of a status-absorbing, phazing bulky Water-type.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Zapdos**: Zapdos is the greatest threat to Suicune in the metagame, easily 2HKOing it with its powerful Thunder. RestTalk Zapdos can easily deal with Toxic variants of Suicune, and its Spikes immunity means that it won't take consistent damage while switching in. While Ice Beam does 3HKO Zapdos, Suicune must risk a lot to attempt a KO. Non-RestTalk Zapdos can also take advantage of Suicune being forced to switch out to paralyze its checks with Thunder Wave or rack up Spikes damage with Roar or Whirlwind, although it must beware of Toxic if it lacks Rest.

**Raikou**: Raikou 2HKOes Zapdos with Thunder and Thunderbolt, whereas Suicune cannot even 4HKO it in return. RestTalk variants have virtually nothing to fear from Suicune, as they can easily cure themselves of poison. However, Roar variants will fear Toxic from Suicune, as they can be taken advantage of by Suicune's teammates when forced to use Rest.

**Tentacruel**: Tentacruel is not as common as Zapdos or Raikou, but it is one of the greatest threats to RestTalk Suicune. Its immunity to Toxic and high Special Defense allow it to switch in with impunity and set up Swords Dance boosts or a Substitute. Rapid Spin variants can also take easy advantage of Suicune get to easily remove Spikes. However, Roar variants of Suicune, while still not able to harm Tentacruel, can readily prevent it from setting up.

**Snorlax**: While Suicune is a common initial switch-in to Snorlax, it primarily serves to scout without having to send in a more passive Pokemon such as Skarmory. Taking Toxic puts Snorlax in the undesirable position of having to use Rest, and even a +1 Double-Edge generally can't bring Suicune dangerously low. However, in the long run, and especially if Spikes is on Suicune's side of the field, Snorlax has chances to KO with a critical hit Double-Edge or set up Curse or Belly Drum while it's sleeping. Roar Suicune is capable of preventing setup temporarily, but, as with RestTalk + Toxic Suicune, Snorlax has the advantage in the long run. It also completely dominates Suicune with neither Roar nor Toxic.

**Growth Sweepers**: Espeon and Vaporeon can break through Suicune's bulk by setting up with Growth. Suicune's Surf is only a 4HKO on Espeon, and Espeon can potentially 3HKO with +1 Psychic, heal off Surf damage with Morning Sun, block Toxic with Substitute, and use Baton Pass to send Special Attack boosts to a teammate. Vaporeon takes a pittance from Surf and usually has Rest to heal itself of Toxic or Baton Pass to pass Special Attack boosts to a teammate. At +5 Special Attack, Vaporeon can 3HKO Suicune with Surf. However, if Suicune has Roar, Vaporeon cannot use Suicune as setup fodder or achieve anything offensively until it is the last remaining Pokemon.

**Exeggutor**: While Exeggutor fears Toxic and Ice Beam from Suicune, it takes little from Surf and can regain any lost health with Giga Drain if Suicune stays in. Giga Drain has a solid chance of 3HKOing Suicune, which makes it risky for Suicune to stay in and fight. If Suicune is its team's primary status absorber, this can cause problems, as being forced to switch lets Exeggutor cripple its teammates. Explosion also does huge damage to Suicune, which could pave the way for a Rock-, Ground-, or Fire-type to wreak havoc.

**Gengar**: Gengar is quite annoying for Suicune, as it is one of the few Toxic-immune Pokemon that has an advantageous matchup. Its Thunder or Thunderbolt always 3HKOes Suicune, and the threat of Thief, Hypnosis, and Explosion targeting either Suicune or its teammates makes it risky to deal with. A full health Suicune can, however, take one hit from Gengar safely and hit it for substantial damage in return with Surf.

**Explosion and Self-Destruct**: While Suicune's bulk lets it withstand all but the strongest of attacks from the tier's most powerful threats, Pokemon with Explosion and Self-Destruct can instantly KO it with minimal chip damage or bring it to very low health. Exeggutor, Golem, Gengar, Cloyster, Forretress, Steelix, Snorlax, and Muk all pose serious threats to Suicune for this reason. With Suicune out of the picture, threats like Charizard, Nidoking, Tyranitar, Marowak, Moltres, and Dragonite can easily get out of hand, so Suicune should tread carefully when facing the aforementioned Explosion and Self-Destruct users threats. It should pay close attention to what teammates appear alongside them to determine whether its health can be risked.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[mc56556, 483288]]
- Quality checked by: [[Earthworm, 15210], [M Dragon, 21345]
- Grammar checked by: [[Finland, 517429], [username2, userid2]]

 

[Earthworm]

Thanks CryoGyro for the great check. I implemented this one as well since mc56556 became busy again.

Uploaded.