[OVERVIEW]
Suicune's viability in ADV OU comes from it's being a defensive Water-type with access to Calm Mind, checking some of the tier's most dangerous physical threats while providing an offensive presence that other bulky Water-types lack. As far as being a defensive Water-type, Suicune's defenses outstrip Milotic's and Swampert's, giving it the heft to shrug off both physical heavy hitters and surprise special attacks from the tier's primary threats, Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross. Furthermore, Suicune's access to a boosting move in Calm Mind makes it lethal beyond compare, as it becomes harder to KO from the special side while its Surfs become absolutely nuclear, and Suicune can run a variety of alternate moves to work past potential counters, such as Ice Beam, Hidden Power Grass, Substitute, Roar, Toxic, and even more. Suicune's access to Rest bolsters its defensive prowess and boosting potential by giving it total recovery and allowing it to shrug off status, making it much harder to stop.
Despite this, Suicune has a number of flaws and shortcomings—most importantly its grounded status and pure Water-typing, which render it vulnerable to Spikes and sandstorm damage. Suicune's reliance on Rest can also become a painful double-edged sword—Suicune lacking Rest will be even more vulnerable to being worn away at and will struggle to push through special walls like Blissey, but with Rest comes the danger that Suicune will be used as set-up fodder while asleep by Spikes users and other boosting sweepers. Suicune also struggles to set-up and sweep against teams containing an Electric-type or Celebi, the former of which threaten it with high power STAB super-effective Thunderbolts while the latter resists its primary attack in Surf and can beat it by setting Leech Seed, setting up Calm Minds alongside it, or using the rare Perish Song to deny it safe set-up and guarantee its death in a lastmon scenario. Suicune is also prone to attackers wielding Self-Destruct or Explosion, such as Metagross and Snorlax or even Cloyster and Gengar, which can either KO it outright or weaken it to the point that it is effectively removed from the game. Lastly, despite its gargantuan bulk, Suicune's lack of a resistance to Rock like Swampert, or a recovery move without drawbacks like Milotic render it vulnerable to being flinched out in lateganes by Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Choice Band Aerodactyl.
name: Defensive
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf
move 3: Rest
move 4: Roar / Ice Beam / Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Bold
evs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Calm Mind, Surf, and Rest are all bread and butter staples for Suicune, maximising its longevity and ability to sweep against virtually any sort of opposition. Calm Mind boosts Suicune's Special Attack and Special Defense simultaneously, allowing it to snowball boosts against defensive teams, while Surf serves as the STAB attack of choice in tandem with it. Rest is Suicune's only source of longevity, yet it serves its purpose, allowing Suicune to heal to full and removing status that can plague it. The last move can be a matter of preference—Roar is the dominant option, to phase other set-up sweepers such as opposing Suicune, Curse Snorlax, and Dragon Dance Salamence, and it tends to provide the best general utility as well as complementing Spikes or covering for a weak defensive backbone. In contrast, Ice Beam gives you a secondary attack, nailing the Grass-types that resist Surf as well as hitting Zapdos super-effectively and doing heavy damage to Salamence. Sleep Talk counteracts one of Rest's primary detriments by allowing Suicune to move while sleeping, which helps to exploit certain defensive teams whose answer to Suicune is forcing it to Rest and then using Whirlwind to force it out—the chance of Sleep Talk rolling Surf threatens massive damage to Skarmory and other phazers while providing consistent offense against more passive special walls like Blissey. Keep in mind that this momentum comes at the cost of Suicune relying entirely on Surf to deal damage and thus being more exploitable by the other above-mentioned threats. As far as alternative options go, Toxic provides general utility, helps break down Blissey and Celebi in lastmon scenarios, and discomfits other bulky Water-types like Milotic and Vaporeon.
The given EV spread maximises Suicune's ability to take physical hits while creeping above the max for base 55 speed Pokemon, thereby outrunning lesser-seen but still dangerous threats like Marowak. The defensive EVs give Suicune 401 HP, ensuring that it survives 4 Seismic Tosses from full, while the defense avoids a guaranteed 3HKO from threats like Choice Banded Aerodactyl or Choice Banded Metagross even with Sand down. An alternate spread would usually entail around 68 speed to outrun maximum invested neutral Speed Tyranitar as well as slower Pokemon around that range, such as offensive Swampert and Body Slam Jirachi.
This Suicune generally is meant to be played carefully until its impediments are identified and the appropriate lines of play become clear—Blissey and Celebi should be PP stalled to set up an eventual sweep, while offensive counters should be worn down and removed. Using weather-clearing moves to remove sandstorm or Rapid Spinners to remove Spikes is also critically appreciated in between to keep Suicune from accumulating chip damage and being forced to Rest.
Team Options
========
Despite its standalone prowess, Suicune has a number of compromising issues that it appreciates teammates' abilities to handle. Spikes are a consistent thorn in Suicune's side, whittling away at it on the switch and making it difficult for it to stand up to physical attackers such as Salamence and Metagross. Claydol's Rapid Spin removes Spikes while its solid bulk and resistance to Rock allows it to fend off Tyranitar and Aerodactyl for Suicune. Magneton, on the other hand, can trap Skarmory, simultaneously limit the layers of Spikes it can put down and destroying a phaser who can disrupt Suicune's attempts at sweeping, while also switching into Aerodactyl's Rock Slide and potentially trapping Choice Banded Metagross. Despite compounding Suicune's weakness to Electrics and Celebi, Starmie can back Suicune up in a dual-water core and use Rapid Spin to remove Spikes as well, although Claydol is generally the preferred partner in that regard. Beyond the Spikes weakness, pairing Rock-resistant Pokemon with Suicune is generally prudent to keep it from being exploited by Sand and Rock Slide flinches—aside from the aforementioned Claydol and Magneton, Metagross and Jirachi also pair well with Suicune. Despite sharing a dislike of Skarmory, Metagross still threatens Blissey, Snorlax, and other special walls that switch into Suicune with its powerful Meteor Mash, while also fending off Tyranitar and Aerodactyl consistently. Jirachi on the other hand can form a dual Calm Mind core with Suicune, where both Pokemon can weaken special walls in tandem. Jirachi can also spread paralysis via Body Slam or Thunder and also pass Wishes to help Suicune's longevity.
As far as Suicune's weaknesses and counters go, support is generally easy to come by. Suicune's weakness to Electrics—primarily Zapdos, and Jolteon to a lesser degree—can be covered by partnering it with either Blissey or Celebi. Like Jirachi, Blissey can run Wish and spread paralysis for Suicune, while Celebi can either form a dual Calm Mind core or support Suicune with Leech Seed and Baton Pass. Spikers like Skarmory and Forretress generally partner well with Suicune, acting as backup physical walls while switching into Celebi, and also helping Ice Beam-less Suicune to abuse Roar and rack up Spikes damage on its counters. Dugtrio can trap Celebi as well as weakened Blissey, most Jirachi, and offensive Tyranitar sets, all of which Suicune generally appreciates. As an additional support option, Dugtrio can run Sunny Day, threatening to trap Tyranitar and then clear its Sand to give Suicune free rein. Choice Band Salamence is a strong pivot against physically-based threats and its Intimidate can help ease Suicune's entry or cover its back when weakened. Lastly, Gengar's disruptive abilities are generally appreciated by Suicune for support, and its Will-o-Wisp can compromise special walls and open a window for Suicune to go to town.
name: Offensive
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam / Toxic
move 4: Roar / Hidden Power [Grass] / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Offensive Suicune is defined by a mix of versatility and omnipresent threat, having any number of variants that can ease certain matchups and bypass particular counters, while being consistently threatening against the tier's standard bulky offenses. Virtually any permutation of the moveslot options above can prove effective with the right EV spread and team support. Calm Mind is a given as a boosting move that allows Suicune a way to push through defensive checks such as Zapdos, Celebi and Snorlax, while the water-type STAB gives it a bread-and-butter attack for damage output. The choice between Hydro Pump and Surf is fairly one-sided—Hydro Pump's higher damage is critical in wearing away at Pokemon like Snorlax and its threatening to OHKO uninvested Tyranitar can be critical. On the flipside, Surf's higher PP and perfect accuracy provide consistency, particularly for Substitute variants that don't quite need Hydro Pump's raw power.
The remaining options are a matter of preference, and can be combined in a variety of ways. As far as coverage moves go, Ice Beam is a secondary STAB that hits Water-type resistances like Celebi and Salamence—in a similar vein, Hidden Power Grass can be used to crush Swampert for offensive teams as well as push past Water-types like Milotic, Vaporeon and most of all opposing Suicune. Hidden Power Grass goes over Roar on offensive sets as the filler slot is generally expected to help answer opposing Suicunes. Roar by contrast is a primarily supportive move, preventing other Calm Mind users likeSuicune, Celebi and Jirachi from attempting to check Suicune by boosting alongside, and stopping opposing slower Suicune from phasing it out, while also helping to force switches and rack up Spikes damage. Offensive Roar and three-attacks Suicune tend to require support against checks like Blissey and Zapdos which can fight Suicune one-on-one or threaten it with cripping status moves. Toxic provides another interesting support alternative, compromising Zapdos and opposing Suicune while either forcing Blissey and Celebi to switch or wearing them down to the point that one-on-one battles are feasible. Toxic is particularly deadly when paired with Dugtrio, which can switch in to pick off the weakened Blissey or Celebi. Lastly, Rest is an option on offensive Suicune as it shrugs off status attempts that would otherwise put Suicune on a timer, and gains longevity against checks like Seismic Toss Blissey, allowing it to boost with impunity and burn through their PP.
Non-Substitute sets, particularly Roar variants, will run more special attack and speed to exploit slower checks like opposing Suicune and defensive Celebi, yet on occasion they may run HP investment if their team needs the defensive utility. Rest Suicune generally runs 240 HP to not be 4HKOed by Blissey's Seismic Toss, and maximises Special Attack to ensure consistent damage output. Speed EV benchmarks for Suicune are 16 (outrunning Marowak, bulkier Dragon Dance Tyranitar sets and Milotic), 68 (outrunning neutral 252 Tyranitar, offensive Swampert, Body Slam Jirachi, as well as slower Magneton and Cloyster), 152 (outrunning Naive 252 Tyranitar, Adamant Metagross and Modest Magneton, as well as slower Celebi and Jirachi sets), and 228 (outrunning Jolly Metagross, Timid Magneton and Timid Cloyster, slower base 100 speed Pokemon and virtually all other Suicunes).
Offensive Suicune has utility in all phases of the game, depending on the particular variant being used. Traditionally, Roar, three-attacks or Toxic variants shine as leads or in the early-mid-game, creating immediate pressure against most leads and threatening to punch through shakier checks like Snorlax, Celebi and Skarmory from the word go, while being able to pivot easily out of passive counters like Milotic and Blissey. Suicune can also be used to switch into offensive threats like Metagross and Tyranitar in the early-game to wrest back momentum, if its team lacks a sturdier switch-in.
Team Options
========
This Suicune generally fits best on offensive teams—either generalist offensive builds or the more dedicated CMSpam archetype
Dugtrio synergises extremely well with Suicune sets that drop Ice Beam, as it can remove Celebi and open up Suicune's path to a sweep, while constantly threatening to pick off weakened Blissey.
As with defensive Suicune, Gengar's disruptive abilities and access to Explosion and Will-o-Wisp can be used to target special walls and open up paths for offensive Suicune to do damage, particularly with its threat to Explode on Blissey and open it up. In a similar vein, Regice threatens to Explode on Blissey and Snorlax while also checking Electric-types with its naturally high Special Defense.
Suicune generally synergises well with offensive Pokemon—Metagross, Snorlax, and Tyranitar all exert massive pressure on special walls that check Suicune and threaten to destroy them. Metagross' resistance to Rock-type moves helps cover Suicune against Tyranitar and Aerodactyl, while Snorlax can switch into Zapdos and Jolteon's STAB Thunderbolts and Tyranitar's sand helps apply pressure to Blissey, Snorlax, and Celebi. Heracross is another dangerous physical attacker that can switch into Blissey and Celebi and threaten to cleave defensive teams open, aiding Suicune immensely. Pairing Suicune with Spikes is also a viable option—Skarmory's physical walling allows Suicune's health to be preserved for its own sweeping efforts as opposed to having to switch into a Metagross early game, and Spikes can also wear away at Suicune's checks, particularly in conjunction with Roar. Offensive Swampert sets pair extremely well with Suicune in a double water core, as Swampert and Suicune can pressure their shared answers while improving a team's defense against dangerous physical threats. Lastly, Jirachi serves as a Rock-type resistance to back up Suicune against threats like Aerodactyl, while also offering Wish support and a secondary Calm Mind booster that can help to overload shared counters. A dual Calm Mind core in conjunction with Dugtrio's trapping and Gengar's disruption abilities provides not only significant offensive potency but a solid defensive backbone as well.
name: Substitute
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 4: Ice Beam / Rain Dance / Rest
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 Spe
Substitute provides immediate protection at the cost of overall longevity, blocking status from Blissey, Leech Seed from Celebi, and desperation Explosions from slower Pokemon like Metagross, Cloyster and Snorlax, thus allowing Suicune to bypass these Pokemon for an easier sweep. With maximum HP investment, Suicune produces 101 HP Substitutes that survive a Seismic Toss from Blissey, allowing Suicune to solo Blissey from full with Sand off.
Sets conglomerating the above options exist—Substitute + Roar, Substitute + Rest, etc—and these generally require more specialised precise support to function, but they can be extremely deadly against unprepared teams. As far as EVs go, these vary by set, yet every specialised spread will make tradeoffs on some level between bulk, power, and speed. In the following sentence I guess I was unclear that sometimes Subcune does not need full HP. Substitute setsrequire frequently use maximum HP to ensure that Substitute is not broken by Blissey's Seismic Toss—faster Substitute Suicunes are better at weaponising the protection Substitute offers for boosting opportunities, while slower variants have higher special attack to push through special tanks like Blissey and Snorlax. Sometimes, Substitute sets forgo HP in favor of Speed and Special Attack and simply use the Substitute to fend of Leech Seed, Explosion, and status moves.
Substitute sets are either used as leads who can bait out defensive answers like Milotic and Blissey and use them as set-up opportunities, or as endgame sweepers to be used once their counters have been weakened or eliminated outright.
name: Modest ResTalk
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
An offensive Suicune variant designed to combine defensive Suicune's longevity with consistent damage and offensive pressure, Modest ResTalk Suicune is a perpetual-motion sweeper with high upside and potent threat factor. Its premise is simple—Calm Mind gives Suicune boosting power, Surf provides a consistent attack, while ResTalk afford it both recovery and the ability to consistently attack, thereby rendering it immune to being worn down by status and a threat to phasers who would seek to Roar out a Resting Suicune. Its simplicity belies its effectiveness, however, as Suicune can easily accumulate boosts against unsuspecting checks and snowball its way through a team with repeated Surfs.
The moveset this Suicune carries is fairly self-explanatory—Calm Mind as a boosting move, Surf as the attack of choice, Rest and Sleep Talk for longevity. An important factor in understanding Suicune's use involves the mechanics behind Sleep Talk; if Suicune either switches out or is forced to switch immediately after using sleep talk, then the turns spent sleeping are reset to 0, thereby forcing it into two further sleep turns. This complication mitigates the defensive viability of a ResTalk Suicune, as a wasted sleep talk and an extra turn sleeping can prove fatal. This Suicune attempts to circumvent this problem by being a stallbreaker that aims to hit hard, targeting phasers in particular and threatening them for massive damage on the switch-in while Resting. The end result is a sweeper that can find early-game setup opportunities and exert constant pressure throughout the game until a window emerges for it to sweep.
This Suicune is particularly threatening when facing teams with Skarmory/Swampert/Blissey cores, as it can switch in easily throughout the game and accumulate boosts, Resting at opportune moments and then cutting loose with Surf against teams without a Water-type resistance. In particular, this set's ability to target Skarmory is potent—if Suicune chooses not to use Sleep Talk and merely rests as Skarmory uses Whirlwind or Roar, then its sleep turns will not be reset, giving Suicune free range to move while denying said Skarmory the chance to lay down spikes. This allows Suicune to maintain consistent health and pressure while still fishing for the chance of Sleep Talk rolling Surf as Skarmory switches in. The EV spread tends towards power and bulk, ensuring that Suicune outruns slower breakers like Marowak while not being 4HKOed by Blissey's Seismic Toss, with maximised Special Attack investment to guarantee damage output.
Team Options
========
As potent as ResTalk Suicune is, its reliance on Surf as its solitary attack leaves it vulnerable to being slowed down by Water-type resistances—opposing Suicunes, Celebi, Salamence and Vaporeon being some examples. Thus, this Suicune set partners well with offensive threats that appreciate its ability to switch into Swampert and Blissey consistently and apply consistent pressure against TSS teams. In particular, offensive Explosion users like Metagross and Snorlax make for good partners, as they can switch into certain of Suicune's answers while luring opposing Suicunes and Celebis, easing Suicune's path to a sweep. Mixed Metagross in particular is another Pokemon that targets opposing TSS cores while luring Zapdos and Celebi, while Curse + Selfdestruct Snorlax tends to lure Explosions from opposing Metagross which might otherwise explode to stop a Suicune sweep. SubSalac Swampert is an interesting partner, forming a double water core with Suicune while threatening to remove its counters in Suicune and Celebi via Endeavor and also providing Ice Beam coverage for Salamence, which happens to be a Water-type resistance and an impediment to ResTalk Suicune. Claydol is another partner with great defensive synergy, as a pivot that switches into Thunderbolts, a Rock-type resistance, and a spinner that can remove Spikes to facilitate Suicune's entrance. While not as common, Flygon is a surprisingly good partner, as a Spikes-immune Pokémon that can check Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and most Zapdos variants —as those primarily carry HP Grass—while appreciating Suicune's ability to carve up Swampert/Skarmory/Blissey cores that check Flygon's offense.
Wish users like Salamence, Blissey and Jirachi can also assist Suicune by passing Wishes to ease its safe entry while Resting, thereby preserving its health and making it harder to take down. While not an obvious partner, Magneton removes the most potent phaser and Spiker in the tier, Skarmory, thereby making it easier for Suicune to take control of a game. Celebi provides another pivot that can support Suicune against Electric-type attacks while checking opposing Suicunes, support Suicune's longevity and offensive pressure with Leech Seed support and Baton Passes and even potentially form a dual Calm Mind core with it. Lastly, Suicune's dominance in the TSS matchup incentivises pairing it with archetypes like Physical Offense or Jolteon Spikes, which struggle to make headway against Swampert-Blissey-Skarmory defensive cores but tend to do well against matchups Suicune struggles with. Despite the lack of direct synergy in such a combination, this pairing allows a team to divide its matchups and carry out different offensive approaches based on its opponent's team structure.
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Reflect is an option that bolsters Suicune's already absurd physical defense while also screening it from Explosions that would normally OHKO it. In a different vein, Mirror Coat can be used as a lure to Electric-types, as Suicune's natural bulk allows it to live a STAB Thunderbolt from Zapdos and return the damage with Mirror Coat. Rain Dance can be used to dispel sand and boost Surf's damage, increasing Suicune's longevity and threat factor at the same time. Protect can be used to regain Leftovers turns outside of sand and play around threats like Metagross, Snorlax, and Gengar who would use Explosion as a way of removing Suicune.
Checks and Counters
===================
(Suicune is one of the metagame's most multifaceted threats, and thus it has no real blanket checks or counters, as each of its impediments can be exploited or simply destroyed by the right set. Thus, teams are generally forced to lean on a combination of factors to check or take down Suicune; pairing multiple checks for different variants, heavy offensive pressure, Spikes and sandstorm chip, multiple Explosion users with Dugtrio follow-up, and so on. Stall teams in particular struggle with Suicune, as its access to Rest generally invalidates any attempts to wear it down; the best mechanism involves chipping it early game, forcing it to Rest and then phasing it to force it to switch in on Spikes, and then using a Taunt user or an Explosion user to disrupt its rhythm, preferably with a Dugtrio behind to secure the kill. Teams that set sand and Spikes thus have natural defense mechanisms in practice—of the tier's viable Spikers, Skarmory can phase Suicune while Forretress and Cloyster can Explode on it.) - gonna revise this at some point
Celebi: Celebi is the best possible answer to defensive Suicune and probably its best overall answer as well—between naturally high bulk, a resistance to Suicune's STAB attacks, Leech Seed to wear away at Suicune's health and a variety of other tricks to compromise its sweeping potential. However, faster Suicunes can threaten to 2HKO Celebi with boosted Ice Beams or simply wall its Leech Seeds via Substitute and set up on it for free.
Zapdos: Zapdos is the best offensive answer to Suicune, as threatens it with STAB Thunderbolts that 2HKO even after a Calm Mind, can phase it with Roar and has a naturally high special defense to dogfight Suicune. However, offensive sets can be chipped and worn down while switching in, while defensive sets can be forced to Rest and treated like sitting ducks to set up on.
Blissey: The tier's premier answer to special attackers, Blissey does extremely well against offensive Suicune, threatening to status it with either Toxic or Thunder Wave and gradually wear it down while stonewalling its attacks. However, it cannot beat Rest Suicune without critting, and is reduced to being a short-term check that can chip it for the primary counters. Substitute Suicune sets can also take advantage of Blissey's reliance on status and Seismic Toss to set up multiple Calm Minds on it, though they struggle to break Blissey in practice.
Snorlax: Like Blissey, Snorlax's high natural special attack allows it to switch into Suicune and either use it as set-up or simply lay into it with high-powered attacks. However, Curse Snorlax struggles to push through defensive Rest Suicune, and can be worn down by offensive variants and forced to Self-Destruct to try and take Suicune down.
Regice: Regice combines high special defense with a solid special attack stat, and it can pressure Suicune with any of Thunderbolt, the rare Psych Up, and Explosion with Dugtrio follow-up. However it has no longevity whatsoever and can be outlasted by defensive Suicunes in most scenarios.
Salamence: Choice Band Salamence makes for an interesting answer, as it resists Surf and can switch in on Resting Suicune, threatening a roll to 3HKO it with HP Flying under Sand. Additionally, Salamence's speed allows it to revenge worn down offensive Suicune in certain scenarios, however its vulnerability to Ice Beam renders it imperfect as a check.
Jirachi: Jirachi can Calm Mind alongside Suicune variants lacking Roar, and pound them with Thunder to force them to Rest. Like Salamence, however, Jirachi's particular vulnerability to one move in particular—Roar—renders it imperfect as a check.
Venusaur: Similarly to Celebi, Venusaur resists Surf while laying down Leech Seed and can additionally disrupt offensive Suicune variants with Sleep Powder. However, it lacks Celebi's bulk and recovery and is more prone to being worn down.
Vaporeon: Technically a perfect counter to Suicune, as its Water Absorb renders it immune to Surf and it can threaten to remove Suicune's boosts via Roar or Haze, however it is vulnerable to Toxic or HP Grass and is also prone to being PP stalled, as it cannot harm Suicune outside of Toxic.
Quagsire: Like Vaporeon, Water Absorb renders Quagsire technically perfect as a counter, but it lacks recovery outside of Rest and is thus prone to being worn down.
[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Lord Ninjax, ]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno, 5454], [, ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
Suicune's viability in ADV OU comes from it's being a defensive Water-type with access to Calm Mind, checking some of the tier's most dangerous physical threats while providing an offensive presence that other bulky Water-types lack. As far as being a defensive Water-type, Suicune's defenses outstrip Milotic's and Swampert's, giving it the heft to shrug off both physical heavy hitters and surprise special attacks from the tier's primary threats, Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross. Furthermore, Suicune's access to a boosting move in Calm Mind makes it lethal beyond compare, as it becomes harder to KO from the special side while its Surfs become absolutely nuclear, and Suicune can run a variety of alternate moves to work past potential counters, such as Ice Beam, Hidden Power Grass, Substitute, Roar, Toxic, and even more. Suicune's access to Rest bolsters its defensive prowess and boosting potential by giving it total recovery and allowing it to shrug off status, making it much harder to stop.
Despite this, Suicune has a number of flaws and shortcomings—most importantly its grounded status and pure Water-typing, which render it vulnerable to Spikes and sandstorm damage. Suicune's reliance on Rest can also become a painful double-edged sword—Suicune lacking Rest will be even more vulnerable to being worn away at and will struggle to push through special walls like Blissey, but with Rest comes the danger that Suicune will be used as set-up fodder while asleep by Spikes users and other boosting sweepers. Suicune also struggles to set-up and sweep against teams containing an Electric-type or Celebi, the former of which threaten it with high power STAB super-effective Thunderbolts while the latter resists its primary attack in Surf and can beat it by setting Leech Seed, setting up Calm Minds alongside it, or using the rare Perish Song to deny it safe set-up and guarantee its death in a lastmon scenario. Suicune is also prone to attackers wielding Self-Destruct or Explosion, such as Metagross and Snorlax or even Cloyster and Gengar, which can either KO it outright or weaken it to the point that it is effectively removed from the game. Lastly, despite its gargantuan bulk, Suicune's lack of a resistance to Rock like Swampert, or a recovery move without drawbacks like Milotic render it vulnerable to being flinched out in lateganes by Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Choice Band Aerodactyl.
name: Defensive
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf
move 3: Rest
move 4: Roar / Ice Beam / Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Bold
evs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Calm Mind, Surf, and Rest are all bread and butter staples for Suicune, maximising its longevity and ability to sweep against virtually any sort of opposition. Calm Mind boosts Suicune's Special Attack and Special Defense simultaneously, allowing it to snowball boosts against defensive teams, while Surf serves as the STAB attack of choice in tandem with it. Rest is Suicune's only source of longevity, yet it serves its purpose, allowing Suicune to heal to full and removing status that can plague it. The last move can be a matter of preference—Roar is the dominant option, to phase other set-up sweepers such as opposing Suicune, Curse Snorlax, and Dragon Dance Salamence, and it tends to provide the best general utility as well as complementing Spikes or covering for a weak defensive backbone. In contrast, Ice Beam gives you a secondary attack, nailing the Grass-types that resist Surf as well as hitting Zapdos super-effectively and doing heavy damage to Salamence. Sleep Talk counteracts one of Rest's primary detriments by allowing Suicune to move while sleeping, which helps to exploit certain defensive teams whose answer to Suicune is forcing it to Rest and then using Whirlwind to force it out—the chance of Sleep Talk rolling Surf threatens massive damage to Skarmory and other phazers while providing consistent offense against more passive special walls like Blissey. Keep in mind that this momentum comes at the cost of Suicune relying entirely on Surf to deal damage and thus being more exploitable by the other above-mentioned threats. As far as alternative options go, Toxic provides general utility, helps break down Blissey and Celebi in lastmon scenarios, and discomfits other bulky Water-types like Milotic and Vaporeon.
The given EV spread maximises Suicune's ability to take physical hits while creeping above the max for base 55 speed Pokemon, thereby outrunning lesser-seen but still dangerous threats like Marowak. The defensive EVs give Suicune 401 HP, ensuring that it survives 4 Seismic Tosses from full, while the defense avoids a guaranteed 3HKO from threats like Choice Banded Aerodactyl or Choice Banded Metagross even with Sand down. An alternate spread would usually entail around 68 speed to outrun maximum invested neutral Speed Tyranitar as well as slower Pokemon around that range, such as offensive Swampert and Body Slam Jirachi.
This Suicune generally is meant to be played carefully until its impediments are identified and the appropriate lines of play become clear—Blissey and Celebi should be PP stalled to set up an eventual sweep, while offensive counters should be worn down and removed. Using weather-clearing moves to remove sandstorm or Rapid Spinners to remove Spikes is also critically appreciated in between to keep Suicune from accumulating chip damage and being forced to Rest.
Team Options
========
Despite its standalone prowess, Suicune has a number of compromising issues that it appreciates teammates' abilities to handle. Spikes are a consistent thorn in Suicune's side, whittling away at it on the switch and making it difficult for it to stand up to physical attackers such as Salamence and Metagross. Claydol's Rapid Spin removes Spikes while its solid bulk and resistance to Rock allows it to fend off Tyranitar and Aerodactyl for Suicune. Magneton, on the other hand, can trap Skarmory, simultaneously limit the layers of Spikes it can put down and destroying a phaser who can disrupt Suicune's attempts at sweeping, while also switching into Aerodactyl's Rock Slide and potentially trapping Choice Banded Metagross. Despite compounding Suicune's weakness to Electrics and Celebi, Starmie can back Suicune up in a dual-water core and use Rapid Spin to remove Spikes as well, although Claydol is generally the preferred partner in that regard. Beyond the Spikes weakness, pairing Rock-resistant Pokemon with Suicune is generally prudent to keep it from being exploited by Sand and Rock Slide flinches—aside from the aforementioned Claydol and Magneton, Metagross and Jirachi also pair well with Suicune. Despite sharing a dislike of Skarmory, Metagross still threatens Blissey, Snorlax, and other special walls that switch into Suicune with its powerful Meteor Mash, while also fending off Tyranitar and Aerodactyl consistently. Jirachi on the other hand can form a dual Calm Mind core with Suicune, where both Pokemon can weaken special walls in tandem. Jirachi can also spread paralysis via Body Slam or Thunder and also pass Wishes to help Suicune's longevity.
As far as Suicune's weaknesses and counters go, support is generally easy to come by. Suicune's weakness to Electrics—primarily Zapdos, and Jolteon to a lesser degree—can be covered by partnering it with either Blissey or Celebi. Like Jirachi, Blissey can run Wish and spread paralysis for Suicune, while Celebi can either form a dual Calm Mind core or support Suicune with Leech Seed and Baton Pass. Spikers like Skarmory and Forretress generally partner well with Suicune, acting as backup physical walls while switching into Celebi, and also helping Ice Beam-less Suicune to abuse Roar and rack up Spikes damage on its counters. Dugtrio can trap Celebi as well as weakened Blissey, most Jirachi, and offensive Tyranitar sets, all of which Suicune generally appreciates. As an additional support option, Dugtrio can run Sunny Day, threatening to trap Tyranitar and then clear its Sand to give Suicune free rein. Choice Band Salamence is a strong pivot against physically-based threats and its Intimidate can help ease Suicune's entry or cover its back when weakened. Lastly, Gengar's disruptive abilities are generally appreciated by Suicune for support, and its Will-o-Wisp can compromise special walls and open a window for Suicune to go to town.
name: Offensive
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam / Toxic
move 4: Roar / Hidden Power [Grass] / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Offensive Suicune is defined by a mix of versatility and omnipresent threat, having any number of variants that can ease certain matchups and bypass particular counters, while being consistently threatening against the tier's standard bulky offenses. Virtually any permutation of the moveslot options above can prove effective with the right EV spread and team support. Calm Mind is a given as a boosting move that allows Suicune a way to push through defensive checks such as Zapdos, Celebi and Snorlax, while the water-type STAB gives it a bread-and-butter attack for damage output. The choice between Hydro Pump and Surf is fairly one-sided—Hydro Pump's higher damage is critical in wearing away at Pokemon like Snorlax and its threatening to OHKO uninvested Tyranitar can be critical. On the flipside, Surf's higher PP and perfect accuracy provide consistency, particularly for Substitute variants that don't quite need Hydro Pump's raw power.
The remaining options are a matter of preference, and can be combined in a variety of ways. As far as coverage moves go, Ice Beam is a secondary STAB that hits Water-type resistances like Celebi and Salamence—in a similar vein, Hidden Power Grass can be used to crush Swampert for offensive teams as well as push past Water-types like Milotic, Vaporeon and most of all opposing Suicune. Hidden Power Grass goes over Roar on offensive sets as the filler slot is generally expected to help answer opposing Suicunes. Roar by contrast is a primarily supportive move, preventing other Calm Mind users like
Non-Substitute sets, particularly Roar variants, will run more special attack and speed to exploit slower checks like opposing Suicune and defensive Celebi, yet on occasion they may run HP investment if their team needs the defensive utility. Rest Suicune generally runs 240 HP to not be 4HKOed by Blissey's Seismic Toss, and maximises Special Attack to ensure consistent damage output. Speed EV benchmarks for Suicune are 16 (outrunning Marowak, bulkier Dragon Dance Tyranitar sets and Milotic), 68 (outrunning neutral 252 Tyranitar, offensive Swampert, Body Slam Jirachi, as well as slower Magneton and Cloyster), 152 (outrunning Naive 252 Tyranitar, Adamant Metagross and Modest Magneton, as well as slower Celebi and Jirachi sets), and 228 (outrunning Jolly Metagross, Timid Magneton and Timid Cloyster, slower base 100 speed Pokemon and virtually all other Suicunes).
Offensive Suicune has utility in all phases of the game, depending on the particular variant being used. Traditionally, Roar, three-attacks or Toxic variants shine as leads or in the early-mid-game, creating immediate pressure against most leads and threatening to punch through shakier checks like Snorlax, Celebi and Skarmory from the word go, while being able to pivot easily out of passive counters like Milotic and Blissey. Suicune can also be used to switch into offensive threats like Metagross and Tyranitar in the early-game to wrest back momentum, if its team lacks a sturdier switch-in.
Team Options
========
This Suicune generally fits best on offensive teams—either generalist offensive builds or the more dedicated CMSpam archetype
Dugtrio synergises extremely well with Suicune sets that drop Ice Beam, as it can remove Celebi and open up Suicune's path to a sweep, while constantly threatening to pick off weakened Blissey.
As with defensive Suicune, Gengar's disruptive abilities and access to Explosion and Will-o-Wisp can be used to target special walls and open up paths for offensive Suicune to do damage, particularly with its threat to Explode on Blissey and open it up. In a similar vein, Regice threatens to Explode on Blissey and Snorlax while also checking Electric-types with its naturally high Special Defense.
Suicune generally synergises well with offensive Pokemon—Metagross, Snorlax, and Tyranitar all exert massive pressure on special walls that check Suicune and threaten to destroy them. Metagross' resistance to Rock-type moves helps cover Suicune against Tyranitar and Aerodactyl, while Snorlax can switch into Zapdos and Jolteon's STAB Thunderbolts and Tyranitar's sand helps apply pressure to Blissey, Snorlax, and Celebi. Heracross is another dangerous physical attacker that can switch into Blissey and Celebi and threaten to cleave defensive teams open, aiding Suicune immensely. Pairing Suicune with Spikes is also a viable option—Skarmory's physical walling allows Suicune's health to be preserved for its own sweeping efforts as opposed to having to switch into a Metagross early game, and Spikes can also wear away at Suicune's checks, particularly in conjunction with Roar. Offensive Swampert sets pair extremely well with Suicune in a double water core, as Swampert and Suicune can pressure their shared answers while improving a team's defense against dangerous physical threats. Lastly, Jirachi serves as a Rock-type resistance to back up Suicune against threats like Aerodactyl, while also offering Wish support and a secondary Calm Mind booster that can help to overload shared counters. A dual Calm Mind core in conjunction with Dugtrio's trapping and Gengar's disruption abilities provides not only significant offensive potency but a solid defensive backbone as well.
name: Substitute
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 4: Ice Beam / Rain Dance / Rest
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 Spe
Substitute provides immediate protection at the cost of overall longevity, blocking status from Blissey, Leech Seed from Celebi, and desperation Explosions from slower Pokemon like Metagross, Cloyster and Snorlax, thus allowing Suicune to bypass these Pokemon for an easier sweep. With maximum HP investment, Suicune produces 101 HP Substitutes that survive a Seismic Toss from Blissey, allowing Suicune to solo Blissey from full with Sand off.
Sets conglomerating the above options exist—Substitute + Roar, Substitute + Rest, etc—and these generally require more specialised precise support to function, but they can be extremely deadly against unprepared teams. As far as EVs go, these vary by set, yet every specialised spread will make tradeoffs on some level between bulk, power, and speed. In the following sentence I guess I was unclear that sometimes Subcune does not need full HP. Substitute sets
Substitute sets are either used as leads who can bait out defensive answers like Milotic and Blissey and use them as set-up opportunities, or as endgame sweepers to be used once their counters have been weakened or eliminated outright.
name: Modest ResTalk
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
An offensive Suicune variant designed to combine defensive Suicune's longevity with consistent damage and offensive pressure, Modest ResTalk Suicune is a perpetual-motion sweeper with high upside and potent threat factor. Its premise is simple—Calm Mind gives Suicune boosting power, Surf provides a consistent attack, while ResTalk afford it both recovery and the ability to consistently attack, thereby rendering it immune to being worn down by status and a threat to phasers who would seek to Roar out a Resting Suicune. Its simplicity belies its effectiveness, however, as Suicune can easily accumulate boosts against unsuspecting checks and snowball its way through a team with repeated Surfs.
The moveset this Suicune carries is fairly self-explanatory—Calm Mind as a boosting move, Surf as the attack of choice, Rest and Sleep Talk for longevity. An important factor in understanding Suicune's use involves the mechanics behind Sleep Talk; if Suicune either switches out or is forced to switch immediately after using sleep talk, then the turns spent sleeping are reset to 0, thereby forcing it into two further sleep turns. This complication mitigates the defensive viability of a ResTalk Suicune, as a wasted sleep talk and an extra turn sleeping can prove fatal. This Suicune attempts to circumvent this problem by being a stallbreaker that aims to hit hard, targeting phasers in particular and threatening them for massive damage on the switch-in while Resting. The end result is a sweeper that can find early-game setup opportunities and exert constant pressure throughout the game until a window emerges for it to sweep.
This Suicune is particularly threatening when facing teams with Skarmory/Swampert/Blissey cores, as it can switch in easily throughout the game and accumulate boosts, Resting at opportune moments and then cutting loose with Surf against teams without a Water-type resistance. In particular, this set's ability to target Skarmory is potent—if Suicune chooses not to use Sleep Talk and merely rests as Skarmory uses Whirlwind or Roar, then its sleep turns will not be reset, giving Suicune free range to move while denying said Skarmory the chance to lay down spikes. This allows Suicune to maintain consistent health and pressure while still fishing for the chance of Sleep Talk rolling Surf as Skarmory switches in. The EV spread tends towards power and bulk, ensuring that Suicune outruns slower breakers like Marowak while not being 4HKOed by Blissey's Seismic Toss, with maximised Special Attack investment to guarantee damage output.
Team Options
========
As potent as ResTalk Suicune is, its reliance on Surf as its solitary attack leaves it vulnerable to being slowed down by Water-type resistances—opposing Suicunes, Celebi, Salamence and Vaporeon being some examples. Thus, this Suicune set partners well with offensive threats that appreciate its ability to switch into Swampert and Blissey consistently and apply consistent pressure against TSS teams. In particular, offensive Explosion users like Metagross and Snorlax make for good partners, as they can switch into certain of Suicune's answers while luring opposing Suicunes and Celebis, easing Suicune's path to a sweep. Mixed Metagross in particular is another Pokemon that targets opposing TSS cores while luring Zapdos and Celebi, while Curse + Selfdestruct Snorlax tends to lure Explosions from opposing Metagross which might otherwise explode to stop a Suicune sweep. SubSalac Swampert is an interesting partner, forming a double water core with Suicune while threatening to remove its counters in Suicune and Celebi via Endeavor and also providing Ice Beam coverage for Salamence, which happens to be a Water-type resistance and an impediment to ResTalk Suicune. Claydol is another partner with great defensive synergy, as a pivot that switches into Thunderbolts, a Rock-type resistance, and a spinner that can remove Spikes to facilitate Suicune's entrance. While not as common, Flygon is a surprisingly good partner, as a Spikes-immune Pokémon that can check Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and most Zapdos variants —as those primarily carry HP Grass—while appreciating Suicune's ability to carve up Swampert/Skarmory/Blissey cores that check Flygon's offense.
Wish users like Salamence, Blissey and Jirachi can also assist Suicune by passing Wishes to ease its safe entry while Resting, thereby preserving its health and making it harder to take down. While not an obvious partner, Magneton removes the most potent phaser and Spiker in the tier, Skarmory, thereby making it easier for Suicune to take control of a game. Celebi provides another pivot that can support Suicune against Electric-type attacks while checking opposing Suicunes, support Suicune's longevity and offensive pressure with Leech Seed support and Baton Passes and even potentially form a dual Calm Mind core with it. Lastly, Suicune's dominance in the TSS matchup incentivises pairing it with archetypes like Physical Offense or Jolteon Spikes, which struggle to make headway against Swampert-Blissey-Skarmory defensive cores but tend to do well against matchups Suicune struggles with. Despite the lack of direct synergy in such a combination, this pairing allows a team to divide its matchups and carry out different offensive approaches based on its opponent's team structure.
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Reflect is an option that bolsters Suicune's already absurd physical defense while also screening it from Explosions that would normally OHKO it. In a different vein, Mirror Coat can be used as a lure to Electric-types, as Suicune's natural bulk allows it to live a STAB Thunderbolt from Zapdos and return the damage with Mirror Coat. Rain Dance can be used to dispel sand and boost Surf's damage, increasing Suicune's longevity and threat factor at the same time. Protect can be used to regain Leftovers turns outside of sand and play around threats like Metagross, Snorlax, and Gengar who would use Explosion as a way of removing Suicune.
Checks and Counters
===================
(Suicune is one of the metagame's most multifaceted threats, and thus it has no real blanket checks or counters, as each of its impediments can be exploited or simply destroyed by the right set. Thus, teams are generally forced to lean on a combination of factors to check or take down Suicune; pairing multiple checks for different variants, heavy offensive pressure, Spikes and sandstorm chip, multiple Explosion users with Dugtrio follow-up, and so on. Stall teams in particular struggle with Suicune, as its access to Rest generally invalidates any attempts to wear it down; the best mechanism involves chipping it early game, forcing it to Rest and then phasing it to force it to switch in on Spikes, and then using a Taunt user or an Explosion user to disrupt its rhythm, preferably with a Dugtrio behind to secure the kill. Teams that set sand and Spikes thus have natural defense mechanisms in practice—of the tier's viable Spikers, Skarmory can phase Suicune while Forretress and Cloyster can Explode on it.) - gonna revise this at some point
Celebi: Celebi is the best possible answer to defensive Suicune and probably its best overall answer as well—between naturally high bulk, a resistance to Suicune's STAB attacks, Leech Seed to wear away at Suicune's health and a variety of other tricks to compromise its sweeping potential. However, faster Suicunes can threaten to 2HKO Celebi with boosted Ice Beams or simply wall its Leech Seeds via Substitute and set up on it for free.
Zapdos: Zapdos is the best offensive answer to Suicune, as threatens it with STAB Thunderbolts that 2HKO even after a Calm Mind, can phase it with Roar and has a naturally high special defense to dogfight Suicune. However, offensive sets can be chipped and worn down while switching in, while defensive sets can be forced to Rest and treated like sitting ducks to set up on.
Blissey: The tier's premier answer to special attackers, Blissey does extremely well against offensive Suicune, threatening to status it with either Toxic or Thunder Wave and gradually wear it down while stonewalling its attacks. However, it cannot beat Rest Suicune without critting, and is reduced to being a short-term check that can chip it for the primary counters. Substitute Suicune sets can also take advantage of Blissey's reliance on status and Seismic Toss to set up multiple Calm Minds on it, though they struggle to break Blissey in practice.
Snorlax: Like Blissey, Snorlax's high natural special attack allows it to switch into Suicune and either use it as set-up or simply lay into it with high-powered attacks. However, Curse Snorlax struggles to push through defensive Rest Suicune, and can be worn down by offensive variants and forced to Self-Destruct to try and take Suicune down.
Regice: Regice combines high special defense with a solid special attack stat, and it can pressure Suicune with any of Thunderbolt, the rare Psych Up, and Explosion with Dugtrio follow-up. However it has no longevity whatsoever and can be outlasted by defensive Suicunes in most scenarios.
Salamence: Choice Band Salamence makes for an interesting answer, as it resists Surf and can switch in on Resting Suicune, threatening a roll to 3HKO it with HP Flying under Sand. Additionally, Salamence's speed allows it to revenge worn down offensive Suicune in certain scenarios, however its vulnerability to Ice Beam renders it imperfect as a check.
Jirachi: Jirachi can Calm Mind alongside Suicune variants lacking Roar, and pound them with Thunder to force them to Rest. Like Salamence, however, Jirachi's particular vulnerability to one move in particular—Roar—renders it imperfect as a check.
Venusaur: Similarly to Celebi, Venusaur resists Surf while laying down Leech Seed and can additionally disrupt offensive Suicune variants with Sleep Powder. However, it lacks Celebi's bulk and recovery and is more prone to being worn down.
Vaporeon: Technically a perfect counter to Suicune, as its Water Absorb renders it immune to Surf and it can threaten to remove Suicune's boosts via Roar or Haze, however it is vulnerable to Toxic or HP Grass and is also prone to being PP stalled, as it cannot harm Suicune outside of Toxic.
Quagsire: Like Vaporeon, Water Absorb renders Quagsire technically perfect as a counter, but it lacks recovery outside of Rest and is thus prone to being worn down.
[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Lord Ninjax, ]]
- Quality checked by: [[vapicuno, 5454], [, ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
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