Metagame Sun and Moon LC Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

ggggd

a comfy and reliable family car of the early 2000s
is a Tiering Contributor
Pikipek @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
IVs: 29 HP
- Bullet Seed
- Brick Break
- Brave Bird
- Flame Charge

Mudbray @ Berry Juice
Ability: Stamina
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 156 SpD
- Superpower
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Rest

Thoughts?
Pikipek gets fury attack and Mudbray gets a 100BP Heavy Slam, who are better options than flame charge and rest I think.
 
My initial thoughts and list of all new LC Viable Pokemon, contains ~spoilers~
Alolan Rattata
Alolan Sandshrew
Alolan Vulpix
Alolan Diglett
Alolan Meowth
Alolan Geodude
Alolan Grimer
Rowlet
Litten
Popplio
Pikipek
Yungoos
Grubbin
Crabrawler
Cutiefly
Rockruff
Mareanie
Mudbray
Dewpider
Fomantis
Morelull
Salandit
Stufful
Bounsweet
Wimpod
Sandygast
Type: Null
Jangmo-o
"Cosmog"

https://paste.ee/r/zYMUr

ctrl f is your friend, note Alolan Rattata is written as Rattata-1, etc

Alolan Rattata
Thick Fat is pretty useless on a Pokemon with Rattata's defenses, so Hustle is what we got. I am of the opinion Hustle is a terrible ability, this Pokemon would be way better if it still had Guts.

Alolan Sandshrew
Ice/Steel seems like a bad typing, but Slush Rush is a very good ability. Ice is a solid offensive type but when your best physical Ice move is Ice Ball there is a problem. That is probably the biggest issue here actually. The 4x weaknesses do it no favors, but if it got Icicle Crash it would be way better.

Alolan Vulpix
Ice Vulpix is not nearly as strong as its Fire counterpart. STAB 100% accuracy Blizzard is nice but the Sun-boosted Fire attacks is kind of what gave Vulpix it's power. It is a shame it doesn't get Energy Ball and Will-O-Wisp anymore. It does learn Heat Wave though, which is kind of fun. It will be a decent Ice-type, but lacking the power to really shine.

Alolan Diglett
Still takes hits like tissue paper, all the Steel-typing does is make Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave hurt more. A Gooey clone on one of the fastest and frailest Pokemon in the tier? Okay.

Alolan Meowth
Now we're talking. Regular Meowth was already an okay Pokemon, but I think Dark-type Meowth is a direct improvement. The loss of power of Fake Out is noticable, but STAB Bite and Thief boosted by Technician! Aerial Ace will help with Fighting-types too. A good Dark-type I am excited to try out.

Alolan Geodude
Taking neutral damage from Steel-type moves and being weak to Ground and Grass kind of hurts its ability to trap most of the common Steel-types. However, the Hidden Ability is pretty ridiculous. Sure, it can't hit Ground-types at all, but 80 base Attack Galvanized Return? Double-Edge? Explosion? The typing itself has defensive issues and that Speed is way too low, but Alolan Geodude will be fun at least.

Alolan Grimer
LC Doubles probably isn't going to take off, so the Hidden Ability isn't worth talking about. STAB Knock Off is good, Poison Touch makes it better. Poison/Dark is a pretty solid typing and Grimer has good stats. I can see this Pokemon getting some use for its defensive typing. Its lack of recovery outside of Rest really hurts.

Rowlet
An underwhelming Pokemon with an underwhelming movepool and underwhelming stats. It might be a decent Defogger, but outside of that all its good for is smacking Rock-types and Chinchou on a BirdSpam team. And even then I don't see it excelling. I wish it got something to make it a little more impactful.

Litten
Litten is definitely the strongest of the new starters and the only one with any substantial viability. Intimidate, Will-O-Wisp and U-turn are very nice, despite its terrible defenses. It has good Speed and offensive stats, backed by Swords Dance AND Nasty Plot, but these seem like red herrings. We will probably see a little bit of Litten for its utility potential and not as a sweeper.

Popplio
Popplio's strength is going to be largely dependant on how its Hidden Ability works. Until then, it is just another pure Water-type with a good Special Attack and not much else, and will likely end up in the same pond alongside Psyduck, Oshawott and others.

Pikipek
Pikipek will fit well on BirdSpam teams, although nerfs to Fletchling are not doing favors for BirdSpam, for its ability to Bullet Seed and Brick Break down many Pokemon that give that archetype trouble. Those defenses are very unforgiving though and it will need to be careful switching in. Pikipek definitely has potential and I can see it doing well.

Yungoos
Exclusively a Choice Scarf user, but a very scary one. It has a good Attack backed by three amazing abilities. It also has U-turn, which is the icing on the cake. This Pokemon is a glass cannon and will require both players to play very carefully around it.

Grubbin
Know how much use Karrablast gets? This Pokemon is basically a worse Karrablast. That should give you a good idea of what to expect.

Crabrawler
A pretty cool Fighting-type that will unfortunately be overshadowed by other Fighting-types. Crabrawler is a solid Pokemon, just not enough compared to the likes of Mienfoo, Timburr, Croagunk, Pancham and Scraggy. Would be much more comparable if it got Knock Off and Drain Punch.

Cutiefly
Hitting 19 Speed is amazing by itself, but the addition of Quiver Dance and Baton Pass kicks ass. Sadly its stats aside from Speed are pretty mediocre, but it could still be a pretty threatening sweeper with Quiver Dance and Moonblast. Shield Dust is also an underappreciated ability. It will be a good Fairy-type for more offense-oriented teams.

Rockruff
A below-average Rock-type. It reminds me of all the bad things about Cranidos without any of the good.

Mareanie
It has good defenses, a good typing and Regenerator. However, its support options seem pretty limited, and its power is lacking. It will likely count on using the likes of Scald and Sludge Bomb to 30% its way to victory, do some Recovering as they suffer and Regenerate a ton of health as it switches around the enemy team. Annoying, but not overwhelmingly threatening.

Mudbray
A solid Choice Scarf user, it has high Attack, good defenses and a solid ability. Probably overshadowed by Drilbur, but a strong Pokemon by itself. Could also use Berry Juice to pretty good effect, especially alongside Stamina.

Dewpider
Changes to Leech Life help, but not by much. Water/Bug is a decent offensive typing, but it is simply much too slow and too weak for an offensive set. Defensively, it has good Special Defense but its other stats are nothing to write home about. Probably won't see much use in the long run.

Fomantis
This Pokemon is a bad Snivy.

Morelull
A pretty sweet Pokemon to be honest. Its abilities are pretty useless, but Spore is good and Strength Sap sounds ridiculous. Leech Seed is a nice option as well, and it has a decent Special Attack for Giga Drain and Moonblast. Its HP is a little low, but its Defense is okay and its Special Defense is pretty nice. This Pokemon will probably see use and might even give our current resident mushroom a run for its money.

Salandit
I don't know why they would give Corrosion to such an offensive Pokemon, but whatever. Nasty Plot boosted Sludge Bombs and Fire Blasts will hurt and it has pretty good Speed too. Salandit will definitely see some use and be a solid sweeper. A no-frills kind of Pokemon, despite the unique ability.

Stufful
I honestly have no idea about this thing. Stufful has an awesome ability and good stats, but LC has a lot of good Fighting-types. Will Fluffy be enough to carve out its place among the elite Fighting-types, or will it be overshadowed by old threats? I honestly don't know.

Bounsweet
It looks like Cherubi and, judging by those stats, moves and abilities, will likely be just as useful.

Wimpod
Seeing Wimpod is like when your professor says that the class average for an exam was a B and you get yours back and you got a D+.

Sandygast
Honestly this might be the Pokemon I am the most excited about. Ground/Ghost is a really cool typing and this Pokemon has an amazing ability, access to recovery in the form of Shore Up, good Special Attack and a very interesting movepool. Not getting Will-O-Wisp breaks my heart, but I think this Pokemon definitely has potential.

Type: Null
Incredible stats, this Pokemon will be top tier, if not incredibly broken.

Jangmo-o
Kind of looks like a weaker Axew with an awesome ability in the form of Bulletproof. 55 base Attack seems a little low for a Dragon Dance sweeper, and it can't hit Fairy-types. A cool concept held back by its BST and movepool gaps.

"Cosmog"
Shut down by Taunt, 0/10
Here's the list of Pokemon with just new LC Pokemon, for everyone's convenience:
https://pastebin.com/KyWWyxYX

Just note that several of the egg moves for the alolan forms are incorrect. When I notice the datamine thread updated with them, I'll update the paste.
 
I don't think that Type: Null is going to be usable. They confirmed that it cant breed and I doubt that we're getting it before its Level 5.
 

GOAO

Banned deucer.
TyPe: NUlL wiLL BalaNcE SWirLiX

Just a reminder: 90 base Speed is 19 max speed.

Alolan Diglett is 19 Speed.

Alolan Diglett is going to be awful isn't it.
yh theres no reason to use alola diglett lolers.
eviolite ban: srsly they tryna ruin us :_: now every strong pkmn can 6x0 every team lolo like shellder omanyte aiipom etc :_:
predictin the meta to be full offensive w/ fast placed games and sash/sturdy pkmns dominating. mienfoo will be like A at best coz of its offensive sets, shellder/omanyte/clamperl/aipom/np vullaby are now top 5 pokemon.
yw.
 
Sun/Moon datamine resource thread was updated with proper alolan egg moves, here's the updated list:
https://pastebin.com/KyWWyxYX

A couple important things:
Alolan Sandshrew does get Icicle Crash and Icicle Spear.
Alolan Vulpix doesn't get Fire-type attacks, it does get stuff like Moonblast, Agility, and Freeze Dry which is neat.
Alolan Grimer does get Pursuit.
And most interestingly, Alolan Meowth gets Parting Shot.

And I don't recall if the eviolite nerf was confirmed?
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think Parting Shot just boosted Alolan Meowth from a good Pokemon to an amazing one. A fast Parting Shot user is terrifying and I can see Alolan Meowth appearing on teams with two aggressive sweepers like Omanyte, Magby, etc. And Sandshrew went from terrible to a legitimate lategame threat. Maybe we will see some offensive hail teams in the future.
 

Lou

going solo
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
after to being revealed Cosmog's "movepool"just two moves, don't fuck me we can say its a really shit and hasn't any use.
 

The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Holy. Shit.

Mudbray, Sandygast, and Salandit are goddamn awesome. Which is just as well, because they're probably my favourite pre-evos in the game. Salandit hits 18 Speed and has a broad movepool including goddamn Nasty Plot. Its typing has its defensive flaws, but its offensive coverage even when unboosted can badly hurt a lot of the tier's Pokemon. Also, it gets Knock Off. Sweet.

Sandygast's coverage is very very cool. Shame it doesn't get Trick Room though; I was wanting to make it a Gen VII thing.

Also, what's this crap I'm hearing about an Eviolite nerf?
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So wait is Type: Null technically an LC mon? If it is then lol at 95 base stats except Speed, which is 59 (which is still relatively high for LC standards as iirc, it hits 16 Speed). This mon might be broken but its movepool looks pretty average initially, so I guess we will wait and see...
 
eviolite nerf has not been confirmed, even dataminers are questioning where that info came from. sorry Heysup, you will have to hold off on your orgasm.

as for some early predicts/observations:

- cutiefly looks legit. can hit 19 spe and 16 spa, although with quiver dance i think u can focus more on bulk than speed. it can hit 16 spe w/ just 84 evs, so that should suffice. qd/moonblast/bugbuzz/roost will probably be solid, w/ hp ground thrown in there for coverage possibly > roost or bug buzz. resists 2 very common priorities in sucker punch + mach punch as well.

-fletchling / gale wings nerf not only definitely strengthens cutiefly's case, but anything else that once feared prio acrobatics. as long as it's not at 100% hp, no harm done.

-salandit hitting 18 spe is a pretty big deal. that allowing it to bypass the common 17 spe tier + nasty plot should allow this to be a pretty solid breaker. np / sludge bomb / fire blast, with some combination of hp of choice / taunt / or knock off seems most likely.

- alolan meowth seems neat. 19 spe + np and technician definitely gives it some viable options. i can see a parting shot pivot set as well as np / dpulse / hp fight / tbolt working well.

- alolan vulpix + alolan sandshrew will provide a cool little hail core, but i don't foresee it being top-tier.

- alolan diglett is trash LOL

- alolan geodude has a cool new typing (rock elec) and galvanize to give it good stab options. despite 4x ground weak, i feel as though this will provide a refreshing rocker / fire and bird mon check.

- alolan grimer seems like a better stunky

- mareanie: having a poison / water with recover is really nice, and it seems to have alright defensive capabilities.

that's it for now, might post back later about possible existing mon stat / movepool changes
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
I always knew NP Vulla was best Vulla.

I'm actually really excited for Cutiefly; I expected it to be garbage, but it looks like it'll be a pretty good fighting check with its speed, type, and movepool.

Also, I highly doubt Type: Null is LC, so I guess we don't have to worry about quickbanning it. Yay?
 
eviolite nerf has not been confirmed, even dataminers are questioning where that info came from. sorry Heysup, you will have to hold off on your orgasm.
That's OK. That just means my next one will be even better.

as for some early predicts/observations:

- cutiefly looks legit. can hit 19 spe and 16 spa, although with quiver dance i think u can focus more on bulk than speed. it can hit 16 spe w/ just 84 evs, so that should suffice. qd/moonblast/bugbuzz/roost will probably be solid, w/ hp ground thrown in there for coverage possibly > roost or bug buzz. resists 2 very common priorities in sucker punch + mach punch as well.

-fletchling / gale wings nerf not only definitely strengthens cutiefly's case, but anything else that once feared prio acrobatics. as long as it's not at 100% hp, no harm done.

- alolan diglett is trash LOL
Cutiefly - doesn't it also learn BP? That shit will be scary. Bullet Punch is gonna be a thing.

Fletchling - I think this nerf is huge but I do think people are overreacting a bit. Defog is still going to be so easy to use and frankly Fletchling often doesn't need to take a hit and even if it does, I think Berry Juice will just be more common. And look at this scenario: Fletch switches into bulkfoo, takes 47% from DP. It has a free roost because foo doesn't KO and DP is no longer super effective since Roost no longer has priority. Then once it gets to 100% it can use priority to donk foo or even Set up SD). Also it can use tailwind turn 1 to supplement speed and maybe healing wish will be more used.

If you want to use Fletchling because of the utility it offers I think there are still creative ways to use it.
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
The change to Leech Life seems like a boon for a some old Pokemon, like Venonant, who was always lacking good Physical STAB. Also Shelmet, who has Curse and Shell Armor and Larvesta, who now has good Physical Bug STAB outside of U-turn. I have hopes it might actually push Venonat from usable to actually good!
 
Nobody mentioned Aurora Veil on Vulpix? Could have some use on a Scarf set where you want to Aurora Veil on something that can kill you. It gets Encore too, so perhaps it can find opportunities to set up with a Light Clay set as well.

Sandygast is cool, no water immunity sucks but good coverage + recovery + Hypnosis is good. No Will-o-wisp though, something other Ghosts have over it.

Scarf Mudbray seems pretty strong, EQ / RockSlide / CC / Heavy Slam is decent enough for coverage.

Salandit is nice for a NP user that can't be encored, but if you're switching Cottonee in this thing then, hey man, with balls like that you should be colonizing Mars or punching a shark or some shit
 

Sken

feet of clay
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
top 5 best new mons! (imo)

1. Pikipek

Its attack is good and its speed is decent (17 is ok) even though I can see it running a scarf set to be even more threatening. We already know how good normal stab multi-hit moves are from Aipom, but this one has a secondary STAB too in Brave Bird, likely to 2HKO Flame Body mons, while being super strong. It has crazy coverage moves as well, with Brick Break being able to demolish Magnemite and Pawniard, Bullet Seed for Onix, Chinchou, Omanyte or Tirtouga to name a few, and U-turn which is just great. Really good replacement for Fletchling being garbage in this generation.


2. Salandit

Salandit has 18 speed, great special attack and access to Nasty Plot, as well as two very good STABs in fire and poison, which complement each other pretty well hitting the other's resistances for neutral damage and being walled by rock-types only. It can also run Hidden Power Water or Ground for great coverage in general for its fourth slot, or maybe something like Substitute. Its abilities are pretty useless, Oblivious isn't an awesome ability, and even if Corrossion is good for Toxic I don't really know how useful it will be, since it already hits steel-types super effectively and poison-types can't do much to it, but it could be cool for mons like Skrelp or Mareanie.


3. Cutiefly

Cutiefly is frail and doesn't hit very hard, but it can reach 19 speed and has access to Quiver Dance, as well as Baton Pass. Its offensive stats aren't great, but with a Life Orb I can see it being an inmediate threat since it's the first offensive fairy type in lc, as well as the first offensive bug type (scarf larvesta is horrible). Its movepool is good enough with solid STABs in Bug Buzz and Moonblast, Psychic, Hidden Power of choice and U-turn. It would be able to run a Quiver Dance set too, even though it's already fast and not very bulky, but I suppose the spdef boost + Roost can make up for it, and baton passing another threat once you have to face a counter sounds really cool. I still prefer the first one as an Elekid-ish threat that provides momentum and can get solid 2HKOs.


4. Mareanie

Mareanie has been pretty underrated, but I think it has good potential. Its stats might not be really good, but it has such a good defensive typing checking fairy, fighting and fire-types. Its movepool is awesome because it has Toxic Spikes, Recover, STAB Scald, poison STAB of choice and some cool options like Ice Beam, and its access to Regenerator is just awesome. It's pretty easy to trap though, so be careful when using it. Another option is a Tspikes Venoshock set with Merciless, but it just sounds like a gimmick to me.


5. Mudbray

Mudbray's impressive 100 base attack is probably its best tribute, and ground is a great STAB to have. Stamina sounds like a good ability too, even though this thing doesn't have a good recovery. It gets STAB Earthquake, rock coverage and Superpower for the likes of Ferroseed or Porygon, all of them hitting really hard, and it's pretty heavy with a powerful 100 bp Heavy Slam, but it's not that good for coverage like the others. Not the best but definitelly not bad.

PS: I haven't said anything on alolan Pokémon because I don't really see any of them shining in SM LC. I don't know how I feel about alolan Vulpix though, it could be good.
 
top 5 best new mons! (imo)

1. Pikipek

Its attack is good and its speed is decent (17 is ok) even though I can see it running a scarf set to be even more threatening. We already know how good normal stab multi-hit moves are from Aipom, but this one has a secondary STAB too in Brave Bird, likely to 2HKO Flame Body mons, while being super strong. It has crazy coverage moves as well, with Brick Break being able to demolish Magnemite and Pawniard, Bullet Seed for Onix, Chinchou, Omanyte or Tirtouga to name a few, and U-turn which is just great. Really good replacement for Fletchling being garbage in this generation.


2. Salandit

Salandit has 18 speed, great special attack and access to Nasty Plot, as well as two very good STABs in fire and poison, which complement each other pretty well hitting the other's resistances for neutral damage and being walled by rock-types only. It can also run Hidden Power Water or Ground for great coverage in general for its fourth slot, or maybe something like Substitute. Its abilities are pretty useless, Oblivious isn't an awesome ability, and even if Corrossion is good for Toxic I don't really know how useful it will be, since it already hits steel-types super effectively and poison-types can't do much to it, but it could be cool for mons like Skrelp or Mareanie.


3. Cutiefly

Cutiefly is frail and doesn't hit very hard, but it can reach 19 speed and has access to Quiver Dance, as well as Baton Pass. Its offensive stats aren't great, but with a Life Orb I can see it being an inmediate threat since it's the first offensive fairy type in lc, as well as the first offensive bug type (scarf larvesta is horrible). Its movepool is good enough with solid STABs in Bug Buzz and Moonblast, Psychic, Hidden Power of choice and U-turn. It would be able to run a Quiver Dance set too, even though it's already fast and not very bulky, but I suppose the spdef boost + Roost can make up for it, and baton passing another threat once you have to face a counter sounds really cool. I still prefer the first one as an Elekid-ish threat that provides momentum and can get solid 2HKOs.


4. Mareanie

Mareanie has been pretty underrated, but I think it has good potential. Its stats might not be really good, but it has such a good defensive typing checking fairy, fighting and fire-types. Its movepool is awesome because it has Toxic Spikes, Recover, STAB Scald, poison STAB of choice and some cool options like Ice Beam, and its access to Regenerator is just awesome. It's pretty easy to trap though, so be careful when using it. Another option is a Tspikes Venoshock set with Merciless, but it just sounds like a gimmick to me.


5. Mudbray

Mudbray's impressive 100 base attack is probably its best tribute, and ground is a great STAB to have. Stamina sounds like a good ability too, even though this thing doesn't have a good recovery. It gets STAB Earthquake, rock coverage and Superpower for the likes of Ferroseed or Porygon, all of them hitting really hard, and it's pretty heavy with a powerful 100 bp Heavy Slam, but it's not that good for coverage like the others. Not the best but definitelly not bad.

PS: I haven't said anything on alolan Pokémon because I don't really see any of them shining in SM LC. I don't know how I feel about alolan Vulpix though, it could be good.
I agree but I'd put it in the order
1. Mudbray
2. Salandit
3. Cutiefly
4. Mareanie
5. Pikipek
 
Popplio can be a best starter in LC of Sun And Moon, he have a great moveset and some well stats.

Salandit have a nice Vel and Spa, your ability looks good and he can learn Nasty Plot.

And Mudbray has a very well atack, defects is that he has very little slow but he have a nice moveset.

 
Last edited:

Rowan

The professor?
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I'm looking forward to Marienie. Not because I think it's gonna shake the meta up amazingly, but I just think it's gonna make teambuilding so much easier. There are so many teams I've made this generation, which would have benefited masses with a water/poison mon to fill in the gaps, Yes we have skrelp, but that has to rely on Rest for recovery. It adds a lovely resistance to fighting and fairy, and regen means it can do it all game. If it wasn't for regenerator, it would basically be a shitter skrelp, but with regen it can continue to wall things all game. It also gets recover, for extra security. I feel like the people running the RestTalk Skrelp set, might be more inclined to start running Marienie, but the people running 4 attacks Skrelp will stick to that.
But yeah, as I said, it won't shake the meta up, but it will be a nice pivot mon, which makes teambuilding a little bit easier.
 
The most pressing concern of Gen 7 is that Bidoof has Swords Dance.

It's basically baby Arceus now.

EDIT: also whoa doduo gets jump kick, its basically un-wallable with return / knock off / jump kick / brave bird, although it has to drop something for quick attack if not scarfed

also it gets swords dance which is neat but its prob too slow

EDIT2:

Sandygast @ Berry Juice
76 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
Water Compaction
-Rock Polish
-Earth Power
-Shadow Ball
-Destiny Bond

really good stab coverage, 17 SpA, 22 speed after a polish, and fast Destiny Bond is silly. Pretty neat since it's immune to a lot of priority.

EDIT3: toxic thread is not an entry hazard ;-;
 
Last edited:
from the looks of it, sadly toxic thread isn't rly sticky web + toxic spikes, it only affects the mon currently on the field. more like a toxic + string shot. at least that' how i'm interpreting it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top