Policy Review Sun/Moon Ability Banlist Update

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
There's an objective difference between an ability you can build a whole team around like an auto-terrain (which jams other auto-terrain based teams inherently) or an auto-weather and an ability that is decent on a mon individually (your speed boosts, magic guards, etc.)

I'm not going to get into a discussion about a specific mon on an ability banlist policy thread. It's totally off topic, I referenced you to the Updates PR because it neatly explains why your Grassy Surge post was not within bounds of discussion. For this thread, either stay on topic or get off the thread.
 
Last edited:

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Honestly, the Surge abilities are very much similar to the weather abilities in Drought and Drizzle, and I imagine that GF will eventually go the route of giving these signature abilities to other Pokemon as Hidden Abilities, just as they gave Drought and Drizzle to Ninetales and Politoed respectively. I also believe that there is room for exploration in the terrains still, as some unique abilities heavily involve thier usage and different role archetypes such as hazard setting and revenge killing still have not been fully explored with these abilities. So, I think that giving it a Secondary Ban is the route we should take.

Beast Boost also has some unexplored potential, as this ability is very much reliant on stats and EV investment. Celesteela has really been the only one to capitalize on this, since most of the other UBs have incredibly crazy stat spreads which only ever boost one stat upon its activation. I think there are some routes we could go with this, such as a more defensive usage, and support a Secondary Ban.

Soul-Heart has already been elaborated quite a bit on, and Deck Knight pretty much hit the nail on the head for my opinions on it. It is far too easy to activate due to the passive KO boosting, and Beast Boost also acts as a far more safe alternative if we want any sort of Special Moxie. There is also the optics issue, as the only other Mythical Exclusive ability in Victory Star has already been banned, and I see no reason to unban it. It would be far too weird if we kept one banned but not the other, so I support a Total Ban.

Stamina
is slightly worrying to me, as it has the potential to get out of hand very quickly. For example, if given to a largely specially defensive mon, it could be able to switch into a weak special attack and get it to activate, getting a buff to its defense. It could then very easily snowball out of control and become a very hard pokemon to get through. Of course, CAP does have HazeHawk and multiple pokemon capable of Hazing and Phazing, but the point pertains no less, especially if it can threaten these mons. I think that it should most certainly get a Secondary Ban at least.

I support the philosophy of common sense being used in terms of flavor abilities. Most people can recognize what abilities have competitive usage based on other viable pokemon in the metagame can effectively use these abilities. For example, people could assume that giving a CAP Moxie or Aerialate as flavor is a bad idea, based on DD Mence and Mega Pinsir respectively. For the abilities that are more disputable, such as weather boosting abilities in the line of Swift Swim, thos could be handled case to case. Most people at this point uderstand that Legendary Abilities are pretty much off the table in any sort of ability discussion, so I see no need to enforce this for the third time when it is obvious that these mons will not get these abilities anyways.
 

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
So as only one other person has posted opinions on abilities, the following will be our ability ban lists going into our first CaP of Gen 7.

I have added Stamina to a Secondary Ban and I have downgraded Fluffy to the same. Currently, Surge abilities are Secondary Bans which mean they will only be available for the Primary ability slot in ability discussions. This is the same for Triage and Stamina. Soul Heart is also banned outright to make it comparable with Victory Star. Most of the other ability placements on this list should be fairly self explanatory. I have also added a caveat to the Flavour Abilities Ban List in that we can deem abilities which are outside of these lists as competitive depending on the Pokemon we are making.

Final List:
Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise

Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor

Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield

Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power of Alchemy
Receiver

Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy
Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise

Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor

Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield

Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Arena Trap
Beast Boost
Comatose

Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out

Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Triage


Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power of Alchemy
Receiver

Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy
Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise

Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor

Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield

Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Arena Trap
Beast Boost
Comatose

Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out

Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Triage


<Plus any ability we deem to be competitive on a Pokemon at any stage of discussions. This may include abilities such as the -Ate abilities, Type Immunity abilities (such as Volt/Water Absorb, Dry Skin) or Power Boosting abilities (such as Sheer Force, Tough Claws)>

Thank you for taking part in this thread and I hope we can move onwards to the next CaP with fewer inconsistencies. Please PM me if I have made a mistake with any of these lists! I have gone over them a few times to make sure they all match, but there might still be a mistake somewhere.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
I am adding here that it has been decided that Neuroforce will also be banned outright as of CaP 24.
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Hi guys, I wanted to bring up Parental Bond for discussion before we get to the ability stage of CAP 26.

It was brought up in the OP of this thread, but there was only one comment on it, which was supporting its unbanning as a primary ability.
Which, if any, updated abilities need to be added to any of these listings?
The main one here is Parental Bond, which was nerfed (from 50% power to 25% power). Is this enough of a nerf to take it out of the banned ability list or not?
Parental Bond - Move it to Secondary Ability Ban. It got nerfed by a large amount and is now viable to be thrown out for some concepts for niche strats (PuP, Seismic Toss, Elemental Punches), instead of being an utterly dominating ability that's a free band++. I never really agreed with banning it in the first place, and I feel like the nerf is a perfect time to consider moving it to secondary ability ban. Still really strong though.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Parental Bond should be unbanned in the Primary Ability Banlist following its Gen 7 nerf. It now provides only a modest power increase, less than Tough Claws, and can act as an alternate form of Serene Grace, not strictly doubling effect activation odds but with the ability to go over 100% activation. The primary reason Mega Kangaskhan has not been given a retest in OU is due to the existence of Seismic Toss in its movepool. I believe this ability would be both balanced and a fun possibility for exploration in the CAP process, and am curious what thoughts you all have.
 
Last edited:

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
Hi guys, I wanted to bring up Parental Bond for discussion before we get to the ability stage of CAP 26.

It was brought up in the OP of this thread, but there was only one comment on it, which was supporting its unbanning as a primary ability.



Personally, I'm of the opinion that Parental Bond should be unbanned in the Primary Ability Banlist following its Gen 7 nerf. It now provides only a modest power increase, less than Tough Claws, and can act as alternate form of Serene Grace, not strictly doubling effect activation odds but with the ability to go over 100% activation. The primary reason Mega Kangaskhan has not been given a retest in OU is due to the existence of Seismic Toss in its movepool. I believe this ability would be both balanced and a fun possibility for exploration in the CAP process, and am curious what thoughts you all have.
I agree that Parental Bond should be unbanned, I don't think it makes sense to ban an ability because it's "too powerful" since we get to pick exactly what stats and moves each CAP gets after ability gets picked.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I support the unbanning of Parental Bond. It has immense legal mechanical possibilities for a multitude of potential concepts. I would only caution that because it is so unique, concepts which require it exclusively be made illegal.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Given that Parental Bond is still a very, very good signature and a signature with serious flavor implications on the art to come, I would still be opposed to it being allowed.

It's still a near Life Orb boost to both physical AND special attacks, and a double chance to have secondary effects that can stack (drops, etc) and a somewhat less than double chance to have secondary effects that don't stack (status, etc).

To me this subverts the stats and movepool stages significantly in terms of the power offered. While more nuanced abilities like Tough Claws and Sheer Force can be worked around based on picking specific moves that make contact or not or have secondary effects or not - Parental Bond just applies to everything. You can't tailor power nearly as effectively.

This combination of pushing the boundaries on subverting the regular process and having bad optics/railroading the art polls is too much.
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Given that Parental Bond is still a very, very good signature and a signature with serious flavor implications on the art to come, I would still be opposed to it being allowed.

It's still a near Life Orb boost to both physical AND special attacks, and a double chance to have secondary effects that can stack (drops, etc) and a somewhat less than double chance to have secondary effects that don't stack (status, etc).

To me this subverts the stats and movepool stages significantly in terms of the power offered. While more nuanced abilities like Tough Claws and Sheer Force can be worked around based on picking specific moves that make contact or not or have secondary effects or not - Parental Bond just applies to everything. You can't tailor power nearly as effectively.

This combination of pushing the boundaries on subverting the regular process and having bad optics/railroading the art polls is too much.
I disagree with regards to this ability subverting the stats and movepool stages. The unique double activation aspect of Parental Bond allows for seriously interesting movepool discussions as far as what double activations are beneficial and healthy versus detrimental, and these secondary effects are often easy to separate from identifying raw coverage (Struggle Bug compared to Bug Buzz for example) to prevent the ability from being constraining. As far as the ability's impact on stats, I feel it's being oversold - its power ceiling is below that of other sweeping-boosts such as Analytic (and well below that of Guts) which have had successful stat discussions in past CAPs.

As for flavor implications, I disagree with that as a reason to disallow the ability given the number of strong signature abilities that are allowed and would already require significant art retooling (Surges, Comatose, Innards Out, etc).

Overall, Parental Bond is an excellent ability for discussion that promotes exploration rather than constraining it, and I still feel it should be unbanned as a potential primary ability.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top