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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

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Steelicks said:
i was gonna make this thread too eventually, but now that the game is out for a while, i see no harm in discussing possible tiers. remember: i take a dim view on condescending assholeism, so watch it some of you

here is my tier list at the moment

top tier

meta knight: very fast attack and movement speed, multiple jumps, mach tornado, yadda yadda... he just rules. no projectiles hurts some but thats about it

toon link: powerful, quick, with great projectiles. no real weaknesses at all

mr game and watch: would probably be the best in the game if he had a better projectile, and was more heavy

ROB: awesome recovery and powerful attacks, with uneven but good projectiles makes him one of the best

high tier:

marth: very good, but i think a bit overrated

falco: also very good, with an excellent and annoying blaster strategy

snake: an awkward character, but undoubtably very good.

ice climbers: if you can chain grab, hooray

king dedede: also a chain grabber, but also a good stand alone character

wolf: annoying to fight, but overrated... his recovery kinda spoils him

pit: good projectile, recovery, strong enough, and angel ring is a good move

olimar: very powerful, but hard to use overall

zelda: much improved... this little hotty rules now. hooray!

middle tier:

wario: wario rules. if he had more range, he would be higher for sure

diddy kong: he's pretty good, but nothing spectacular as far as i can tell. i dont dash a lot during matches, so i dont really slip over banana peels

luigi: a very balanced character. he is probably what mario should have been

donkey kong: nothing to say here. he's still okay.

ike: he would be so good if he didnt swing that sword around as if his arms are broken

fox: he's still pretty good, but he's done his dash. for one thing, he dies too easily. still, his up smash is good

lucas: would be high tier, easily, if the grab animation thing wasnt so deterimental

pikachu: the electric rat has improved a lot, with good smashes and an improved thunder

kirby: also improved, but, like pikachu, not enough to be ranked with the big boys

low tier:

captain falcon: i dont think he's as bad as people say he is, but he certainly doesnt rank up there with the best. for one thing, his recovery sucks, as does his priority

link: i see no reason to play as link at all.

samus: see above. too floaty and projectiles were weakened

lucario: an interesting character, however i simply cant see a lot of potential

jigglypuff: not as bad as some people say... she certainly has her merits, still. but as far as im concerned, wario is now the master of the air (or meta knight in a different way)

ness: ness has improved slightly since melee, but he still has issues...

peach: jesus, her third jump sucks. turnips arent as good as before, down smash was weakened... ugh...

sheik: no killing power just kinda spoils her... might seem a bit better in the future though

yoshi: not as bad as people says he is. the whole shield animation thing is gay

bottom tier:

bowser: yeah.... sorry bowser. you're still the coolest though =)

ganondorf: too slow with too much animation lag

mario: nah

sonic: jesus christ, he fucking sucks... no priority at all, and his attacks come out so fucking slowly. no killing power. he sucks.

unrankable

pokemon trainer: im gonna have to give this a little bit more thought. as it stands, squirtle would be in middle tier, while the rest would be lower...

zero suit samus: requires further investigation
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I agree with most this except olimar. Quite frankly those pikmin have more priorty than they should and hitting a good olimar is tough as it is.Great grab and awesome aerials. Bad recovery is his downfall.Otherwise a job well done.
 
We've probably been over this before, but I'd say Snake is deserving of Top tier in Steelicks' tier definitions. He's not as slow as I've heard him described and he can juggle like nobody's business. His projectiles are good, but the Nikita missile leaves him a little defenseless. Cypher's actually not bad for recovery and his smash attacks are beyond powerful. He can also take a pretty sustained beating before being KO'd.

So yeah, Top tier for Snake ^_^
 
Nikita is mainly for edgeguarding anyway. Steelicks's list is outdated an inaccurate anyway.
 
My Fav's and thier tiers: (in my opinion)
I personally love using pikachu, his speed is excellent, he can wall jump and crawl which gives him alot more dodging capabilites. He can edge guard like a pro, his throws are fast, porjectiles aren't too much trouble because he's fast enough to get out of the way, you can't chase him easily thanks to thunder shield (a fav technique of mine) and he has great recovery He's light, though and he doesn't really have a projectile, his final smash takes awhile to master, and he has alot of trouble with the likes of Ike, Marth and Lucario. So, yeah he is about middle tier. xD

Pokemon Trainer has to be top-tier:
Squirtle- great lil guy, I like using him the most because he's fast and almost as agile as Pikachu. His attacks are deceptive, it's hard to tell the range sometimes, and his >B attack is surprisingly easy to control, giving him crawling-like abilities, he can also wall jump AND wall cling- very cool. His recovery is pretty good, so you can only keep him out till about 50-70%, by then he's tireing out and getting dangerous.
Ivysaur- probably your main man, bullet seed is great, thats pretty self exclamatory, he's fast enough, and strong enough to hit hard for the majority of the game. His recovery is hard to master, but is well enough if you can use DI to help you get close enough to land teather recovery. He can usually saty out till about 100-120% then its tough to keep him alive, so you need to switch to:
Charizard- Rock smash takes the award for best attack here, very deceptive range and very high KO ability. Charizard is a little too slow for my taste, but he's powerful, with moderate recovery (but he's heavy so he really doesn't need to use it much.

Toon link- he rocks, and is 5 million times better than link- nuff said.

tiers

Top tier
Pokemon Trainer
Wolf
Snake
Mr. Game and watch

High
King dedede
marth
ike
rob
pit
diddy kong (i hate him)
meta knight
Falco

middle:
pikachu
kirby
luigi
zelda
wario
lucas
ness
Samus
fox

low:
sonic
bowser
mario
peach
gannondorf
donkey kong

bottom
yoshi
link
yoshi
capt falcon
 
Pokemon Trainer sucks too much to be top tier. Wolf is not good enough to get top tier either. Maybe mid tier. Also, Peach and Donkey Kong below Sonic is not going to happen. I also highly doubt Yoshi is bad enough to be listed in bottom tier twice. :P
 
There are so many mistakes with that list that it is not even funny. Even Pokemon trainer mains realize he is mid/low tier at best. Yet you put him above Metaknight who should be one of the highest. That is just one major nitpick of mine.
 
Lack of Shield play is pretty damn crippling for Yoshi even if he's otherwise pretty decent.
 
Mr.E said:
Lack of Shield play is pretty damn crippling for Yoshi even if he's otherwise pretty decent.
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That is a good point, thank you for mentioning that Mr. E. I tend to forget that when arguing in favour of Yoshi since his entry and exit shield animations are what, double that of everyone else's(?), which means that Yoshi does generally have to stay on the offensive, and playing defensively in general is a lot more difficult. This is one of the reasons I feel Yoshi isn't anything above Middle tier, but at the same time I really don't think he should be bottom or lowest of low.
 
Arguably the worst standing grab in the game is pretty damn crippling for Yoshi even if he's otherwise pretty decent.
 
rofl pt top tier

just in case you guys didn't catch it or i forgot to put it:

all the characters are ordered within each tier in relation to each other UNTIL low/bottom tier. at that point it's just randomly listed, so sonic could theoretically be better than lucas according to that list, for example.

pt should be somewhere around the border between low and mid. he doesn't have any super dominating disadvantages (meaning like 70-30 overall). falco gw and marth are probably the closest to that since both ivy and zard are like 40-60 and squirtle might as well curl up in his shell and wait to die. falco's chaingrab bothers squirtle and ivysaur a SHITLOAD but after that 30% threshold, the matchup becomes a lot easier. gw outprioritizes squirtle like crazy. ivy outranges but can't kill as early, and zard can kill as early as or earlier than gw can, but is outranged.

ivysaur does very well against snake and it's somewhere around neutral or even slight advantage ivysaur. squirtle is at a slight disadvantage, popping snake into the air is baaaad news for him, and squirtle's jab CLANKS with snake's ftilt knee. and since squirt's jabs are faster, he can just keep jabbing until he hits snake. snake of course kills squirt at pretty early percents. zard is probably somewhere around slight disadvantage too...his size makes explosives very effective. zard has that nice shieldgrab to take advantage of, and flamethrower racks up a looot of damage. rock smash is really nice, but it will explode any grenades nearby. plus zard can kill snake offstage by bairing him off cypher or just dair spiking. :] ahhhh how satisfying...

charizard is slightly disadvantaged against metaknight, he kills very early and flamethrower/rock smash fuck with mk a lot. zard can cancel both the mach tornado and drill rush pretty efficiently, and hit mk in the process. zard can also shieldgrab the glide attack. ivysaur is also slightly disadvantaged, but he outranges mk with bair. not so sure about any of his tilts against mk's dtilt, mk probably wins there. ivy bair sets up for stuff and keeps mk at a safe distance, much like razor leaf does. and mk fears uair/usmash a LOT. just good luck hitting with it. ;) squirtle is a little strange, just because his attacks (especially ftilt/jab) are quicker than mk's, it just takes good timing and good defense to be able to compete with mk. dtilt of course outranges squirtle. usmash kills mk off the top at around 90%. probably between slight to major disadvantage, imo.

against the top two characters in the game, pt fairs pretty well for a bottom/low tier character! the thing is not just using one pokemon per stock because you'll be at a disadvantage the whole time. each pokemon excels in one situation or another, and you can take advantage of that to close the gap between pt and the rest.
 
PT also has a really hard learning curve and not many people take the time to master him. Its one thing to master one character, but PT requires that you have to be the master at all the three characters. I think he has some poteninal to get to low or some where in mid tier.
 
meh potential is a bit of a depressing word imo (this isn't directed at you sandman, this is directed at anyone really, because at this point, everyone's going "there's potential in this and that" to defend their chars). It just 'makes' that character look better. Potential doesn't matter one bit if you can't unlock it, though (poor Mewtwo).

But with that said I think PT will be low tier. He definitely isn't bottom. Somewhere from mid-low to high-low.

As for the Pokemon themselves
Zard > Ivy > Squirtle imo

EDIT: M2K thinks that TL > Ike, as opposed to the opposite in the proposed tier list.
 
yeah zard>ivy>squirtle. zard is very balanced all around and can easily play both offensively and defensively. ivy is a lot more defensively oriented and squirtle offensively. charizard is a terrific ko guy and is pretty heavy AND has a good recovery.

ivy's main problems are its recovery and air game. squirtle's main problem is a lack of range and insane lightness. like come on he's supposed to be heavier than pikachu but that's not the case in brawl...a projectile would be nice too, although water gun has its uses.

wasn't there some guy in melee who was a beast with mewtwo? and was the only guy ever to win a major tournament with him?

honestly i don't think link or jiggly will ever win a major brawl tourney.
 
wasn't there some guy in melee who was a beast with mewtwo? and was the only guy ever to win a major tournament with him?
Click to expand...
I think you're talking about Taj, who is probably regarded as the best Mewtwo.
 
yeah i think it is taj

ivysaur has an amazing spacing game, so don't be so quick to dismiss him. ;) sure his recovery sucks, but you can switch to charizard at high percents if that bothers you so much. if anything squirtle is the worst of the three.
 
To be honest, I can't get to grips with Squirtle or Ivysaur that well. I'm very good with Charizard but that's like only being good at using a third of any other character's attacks.

I think if Charizard was in the game on his own, he'd be higher tier.
 
charizard is pretty damn good...he has like 40-60 disadvantages to most of the top tier guys though. he's like high mid or maybe low high at best. he also has one of THE best grab games in brawl. unfortunately, that's overshadowed by the fact that he lacks a true chaingrab, so (BAN ME PLEASE) like falco/d3 get the attention there. but really good grab range, really good dash speed, and decent throws are nice. sometimes you can just grab attack and grab again on most characters if they aren't expecting it.

the people that think he's the same as bowser don't know what the fuck they are talking about.
 
Yeah, as a Pokemon Trainer secondary player, I find Charizard to be the best of the 3 and always lead off with him unless faced with someone like Falco. That way you can switch when the damaged is built up and avoid chaingrabs.
 
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