SSB Super Staff Bros: Ultimate Discussion

Been having a lot of fun in this tier trying to retain the rank 1 position ! I wanted to stay thanks a million to all the people who worked on this and provided us with such a cool experience :)

With that said, here's a little tier list of my own (the sub tiers are not ordered btw, this was already long enough to make) :

ssbutierlist.png

If you have any question or disagree with my tiering feel free to mention it and I'll be happy to give indepth reasoning about why I placed the mon where it is.
 
I love how we keep slowly pushing the top 1 rating higher inch by inch because most games on the ladder are worth less than 10 points lol... props to my competitors though y'all are mad determined lmao every time i leave for like a few hours I come back and find that i've been dethroned already
 
ausma said:
Vistar’s base form is very solid disruption but that’s about where it ends. The sweeper mode requires a turn and a move slot in exchange for a STABless and generally weak attacker which is highly committal due to Throat Spray’s expendable nature while having a completely useless Tera type. If your opponent has Speed boosting you wind up just falling flat most of the time; there are far better anti setup options in the format that also actually do something to make progress. I guess you could argue a case for low C but I still feel pretty confidently it's high D.
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How? It can easily sweep if the opponent does not have a Dragon or special wall with STAB Overdrive and Punk Rock boosting all of its moves. Furthermore, the current speed-boosting Pokemon don't outspeed Vistar and they have to take down a Substitute first to defeat it.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
How? It can easily sweep if the opponent does not have a Dragon or special wall with STAB Overdrive and Punk Rock boosting all of its moves. Furthermore, the current speed-boosting Pokemon don't outspeed Vistar and they have to take down a Substitute first to defeat it.
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Fwiw this was posted before the bug fix adding Overdrive was pushed through. I've changed my mind on Vistar since then; I think they're actually quite solid now, and even aside from that, I undersold the fundamentals. They're definitely not D-tier now.
 
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Hi all, I've edited my previous tier list now that I have more seasoned impressions on the metagame. Many placements are roughly the same, but there are a few major changes you may have noticed in the higher tiers I'd like to briefly discuss.

Major shifts:

The Good:

:wobbuffet:
DaWoblafet is the trade artist of the tier. Even into the textbook brokens, DaWoblafet can remove quite literally any Pokemon you want them to, while sometimes being able to take more than one with them depending on how well you position them and what Pokemon you opt for them to remove. While they never really wind up being extremely flashy, their insane reliability at deleting whatever you want them to makes them extremely good.

:zeraora:
Vistar went from being shit to incredible overnight, and much of that I attribute to the bug fix that gave the Virtual Avatar form a proper STAB move. Because of this, Vistar now has the fundamentals to be a phenomenal lategame cleaner and revenge killer. The positive traits that I underrated earlier on are also useful in and of themselves, but are arguably even better now that they can enable a legitimate threat of a set. Copycat is also quite great, and I was not expecting it to be as nice as it actually is. Because of how fast Vistar is, you can yoink powerful customs against some Pokemon that can either benefit your team or threaten out a Pokemon you're staring down. They just had an insane glowup and I think they've become a truly great submission with a positive dynamic in the format.

:cinderace:
Kennedy is not really broken imo like what Delibird Heart has mentioned, but after some chats with them and also really playing more with him, I think he's a really strong and mostly reliable cleaner. He's very committal akin to Beowolf, but unlike Beowolf you have consistent coverage options and more explosive power in spite of your low BP stabs to work with.

:marill:
marillvibes is basically Azumarill if it was Mega Mawile, boasting ludicrous revenge killing ability, a maniacally strong Water-type STAB, and a reliable Fairy-type STAB that can also help leverage a sweep into healthier teams. I have no idea why I rated it so low before tbh, they're kinda really good and arguably more consistent than ptoad even if their highs aren't as extreme.

The Bad:

:scizor:
aegii has no real answer. Between the fact that Equip Aegislash is ludicrously broken, being a STAB Extreme Speed that acts simultaneously as a major setup move, as well as the fact it has Unburden to complement its fantastic coverage profile, you need to have a Steel-type or one of the dedicated trade artists. In the former's case, you have to pray that you dodge Cross Chop, or you're dead to rights. Even if you can outspeed it, Equip Aegislash has no drawback and will always be an option to deny revenge killing attempts. Aegii already is on the chopping block in terms of nerfs, so their dominance shouldn't be too long lasting.

:reshiram:
XpRienzo may have four moves, but there is only ever one worth clicking in 99% of scenarios: Scorching Truth. Alongside Tera Fire, you can sweep quite literally any randomly generated team because of the fact that it is designed to be unresisted and unfettered by Rain, while maintaining its positive type/weather matchups. On any other Pokemon this would be extremely strong but maybe manageable with a good Special wall. However, given this is on a Reshiram, you have to pray you have someone like xy01 on your team; but even then, you have access to Volt Switch. If you are underwhelmed by XpRienzo, you are not clicking Scorching Truth. Click Scorching Truth and use your Tera on them and you will ravage most teams with little resistance.

The Ugly:

You may have noticed the obnoxious shits tier that is now here. This tier replaces the original "broken" tier that I had, as I believe the most problematic elements of this metagame are less outright "broken", but moreso very unhealthy. The Pokemon I've placed here are ones effectively designed to take away control from players and force really frustrating and restricting dynamics. While there is definitely counterplay to these Pokemon, I do think overall the format would be better off not having these kinds of sets around. I personally feel these Pokemon either need to be reworked or nerfed in an extremely serious way.

As usual, let me know if you have any questions!

BreadLoeuf said:
i don't think im on this list..
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you're low b-tier
 
InkyDarkBird said:
Not really? Just get a Dragon or Fire Pokemon. Furthermore, it only has 108 base SpA.
Your opponent would have easily beat up Solaros & Lunaris had they kept Alexander489.
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While it may seem so at first glance, it's not as simple as that. First of all, having drought + chlorophyll as an ability is pretty insane. This means nothing outspeeds Solaros & Lunaris in the entire tier, and it's spatk when using mind melt is essentially 1.5x what it really is. Suddenly a reasonable 346 spakt becomes 519. Not so easy to wall anymore. So now you have a mon that nobody outspeeds, and with the power of a nuke behind it. And because of it's typing and passable bulk, no priority move is ohkoing you either. In fact, you live marillvibes' jet punch from full hp, even if you already tera fired (if sun is still up). What's more, Mind melt is a REALLY good fire stab, being 100 bp and 100 acc with psyshock properties. If you tera fire to add to that, even resists will take a lot of damage. For example you mentioned my opponent could have beat it if they kept Alexander489, but lets look at the calcs :

252+ SpA Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard in Sun: 145-171 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
(to calc mind melt, I put in psyshock and changed the bp to 100 and type to fire)

Not exactly the sturdiest switchin... And that's not even counting tera fire:
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard in Sun: 194-229 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah... it was not looking good for my opponent there.

But even sturdier resists, like ones with more defensive profiles or who 4x resist fire have to worry about getting repeatedly chipped on switch in until they cave in, if they don't have recovery. Out of all the ssb mons who resist both fire and grass, only 4 of them have access to reliable recovery:
Aethernum, MyPearl, RSB and trace. However trace doesn't exactly have the defensive profile to tank 2 tera fire mind melds. Outside of these, XpRienzo is a 4x resist that threatens to ko back, and Lasen is a resist that removes sun and stat boosts on switchin, and has volt switch to keep momentum after coming in. We can also count DianaNicole after mega evolving, which has flash fire + is a grass type. There are also four weather based potential answers, Waves, rainshaft, ptoad and kenn, but out of all of these only kenn has reliable recovery, and cant really switch in on solar beam because even if it becomes 2 turns charge solar beam, you cant exactly stay in to take it and deal damage back (you would get ohkoed). So outside of the 6 mons I mentioned earlier, there are no real reliable switchins in the entire metagame. That seems a bit ridiculous.

All of this leads me to think that this mon warrants action.
 
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InkyDarkBird said:
You forgot PartMan, Nyx, DaWoblefet, zoro, Theia, Breadstycks, Notater517, Mathy, UT, and Venous.
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:chandelure: PartMan -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chandelure in Sun: 173-204 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:altaria: Nyx -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Altaria in Sun: 173-204 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 97-115 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lives the initial switchin, and can KO back with earthquake. This is a check, but only for as long as there are no hazards up.

:Wobbuffet: DaWoblefet -
Yeah this one is pretty good, although its always gonna be a 1 for 1 trade.

:umbreon: zoro -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Umbreon in Sun: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Because of the ability this one can be a bit annoying, but its not exactly a super safe switchin either.

:litwick: Theia -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Power Abuse Litwick: 113-134 (14.355 - 17.16%)

Ok, this is actually really solid. Shadow ball is also almost always a 2HKO on scov, so this one is actually a good counter.

:dachsbun: Breadstycks -
252+ SpA Scovillain Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dachsbun: 228-268 (71.6 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:incineroar: Notater517 -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 5.6% chance to 3HKO

Not a lot of damage, but Notater517 doesn't get recovery, so it's just a matter of chipping it everytime it switches in until on the third switchin, it gets 3hkoed. However because it has ceaseless edge, it can at least guarantee chip on further switchins.

:furret: Mathy -
252+ SpA Scovillain Solar Beam (??? type) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Furret: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Furret Bitter Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scovillain: 113-134 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not necessarily a clean 2HKO, but doesnt deal enough damage to avoid growth into kill.

:talonflame: UT -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fur Coat Talonflame: 70-83 (19.4 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO

Ok this one is actually a genuine very solid switchin, don't know how I missed that lol.

:mantine: Venous -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Mantine in Sun: 158-186 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yea, not good enough, not to mention growth is free against this.

So adding Theia and UT as real counters and DaWoblefet and Nyx as solid checks, that's still only 10 mons in the tier with real reliable ways to deal with Solaros & Lunaris.
 
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Delibird Heart said:
:chandelure: PartMan -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chandelure in Sun: 173-204 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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You did not add the +1 +1 defenses PartMan receives from its ability, and PartMan can use a boosted Morning Sun and Searing Shot to threaten Solaros & Lunaris.
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Flamethrower (Mind Melt) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure in Sun: 115-136 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 69 SpA Chandelure Searing Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fire Scovillain in Sun: 111-131 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Chandelure gets equal Defense and Special Defense so it does not really matter in the calc)

Delibird Heart said:
:mantine: Venous -
252+ SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Mind Melt vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Mantine in Sun: 158-186 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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Venous gets Clear Smog and Roost, which can threaten Solaros & Lunaris.

Other than those two, your analyses are correct.
 
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