SSB Super Staff Bros: Ultimate Discussion

Friar Laurence said:
I agree with the majority of these takes, with some exceptions:
  • I think Poisonous Wind is fine as-is, because it's already a scary phasing + status move and being able to block it by picking a scapegoat to suffer the toxic alone feels like a balanced tradeoff to me.
  • Apple can be unreliable, but considering the power of a successful flopple he can still come in clutch. Double Calm Mind makes him a powerhouse special tank and wallbreaker, and the priority confusion alone has saved me at least twice.
  • Ciran's signature move (I ain't typing all that) can do pretty solid damage with Tera Poison (the downside being there might be other mons that could make better use of the Tera slot). I've never been able to make use of his Sketch though, he's just not tanky enough to pull it off.
  • usually feels powerful to me, but that could just be me getting unreasonably lucky with the random plates.
  • I think the biggest source of Rumia's problem is the Prankster Strength Sap. Take that away and you still have a stupid good physical wall, but not an impossible one. Maybe replace it with Recover or a clone, or remove healing entirely? Not sure. I think the massive defense on its own is not a problem because we already have both Chansey and Blissey in this tier on the special side and Umbreon which is even harder to kill.
Also as an aside, I get that Clementine Flipped having Heal Pulse is probably meant to be a meme, but it still bugs me that it only has 3 usable moves.
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Rumia also benefits from being **far** less passive than Blissey. Chansey isn't as passive, but makes up for it with less defensive investment and lack of reliably recovery (25% wish, once per switch-in, assuming you don't magic trick it to another mon), and also isn't that strong and doesn't carry status, so can easily be stopped by other defensively capable pokémon. Rumia's biggest problem is definitely the insane power of strength sap, aided by priority, but it's all aided by his ability to beat the physical attackers easily with status and increasingly strong attacks.

Poisonous Wind *is* fine as is, but it's still pretty clearly not the way the move was intended, as many moves that should succeed fail if any part of the combination of moves fail.

Apple is not unusable... unless you fail the 50/50. A successful flopple just isn't good enough to outweigh the disbenefits of an unsuccessful one, and, more importantly, Apple isn't the kind of mon able to fish for multiple. So you have a good mon if he wopples once, but not an amazing one as he's still slow, not that strong (e.g. can't hit steels), and vulnerable to physical attacks. On the other hand, if you flopple once, you have a mon with poor bulk, poor speed, and poor special attack, who normally can only fish for a wopple on the next turn and hope you get confused.

Ciran, yea sure, Summon Monster VIII: Fiendish monstrous Piplupede, Colossal can hit some mons super-effectively for good damage, but it's not strong. I'm willing to bet most of the poison weak mons in the tier will live it handily, and tera poison is mainly something I'd use for the toxic immunity over anything else. As I said, not the worst mon, just underwhelming compared to other similar mons in the format.

Nothing to add for TheJesucristoOsAma, all my previous points stand.
 
Chrus is nub said:
I just had Kennedy die mysteriously (turn 7 in the replay), can anyone shed some light on why this happened?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-2224919752-la2pc82zy0x1f3ni6mlndq0xmaqiwd2pw

As far as I can see in the documentation it's neither due to Kennedy nor the opponent I knocked out, or the new opponent that comes in. I'm at a loss.
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It's one of the special interactions Kennedy has, if dhelmise gets sent out then Kennedy will immediately faint. It should also happen if Kennedy gets infatuated.
 
Samirsin said:
I have seen that there are a lot of "unique interactions" not listed anywhere, are they meant to be "easter eggs" not documented so that you can discover them?
I would prefer if there was a place where they are compiled, as many do have a competitive impact in game.
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Yeah, I think as a format it is not meant to be the most competitive, but having interactions like a Pokémon randomly fainting should at least be documented so you can play around it when needed.
 
yeet dab xd is also super broken, for similar reasons to Bert122. Throwing out 100 damage, 100 healing, paralysis, 8 turns of Aurora Veil, and a once per battle self-revive, all of it completely unblockable and unpreventable. Plus, Fake Out gives 1 free turn and then Top Kek lets you cycle two more per turn, so all of these effects can be cycled in 2.5 turns. If a player has yeet dab xd on their team, they effectively have permanent Aurora Veil and can paralyze opposing mons at will, and KOing yeet dab xd in return is nigh impossible unless you have very specific counters. The solid bulk combined with Aurora Veil and free healing is hard to take down without a super effective physical attack, and even assuming your attacker doesn't get paralyzed, a Normal type with Tera Ghost brings it down to a guessing game. Well, even if you guess right, Reviver Seed will save him once and then he can switch out while your attacker is now crippled by paralysis and big chip damage.

My personal opinion is that having abilities that activate various moves after the turn ends is a bad mechanic. To borrow a TTRPG term, it's breaking the action economy, completely negating normal strategies to deal with mons that have powerful support moves.
 
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2232362181
In here after transformed into pokemonvortex (roulette smeargle), and swapping and re entering again, Ransei still had the Roulette moves except for the 4th move.
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Just witnessed a Knot Weak from Kalalokki doing 57% to Rumia. This is kind of ridiculous and raises the question about Rumia: should it counter physical attackers that hard? R8 and xy01 are also hard counters to special attackers but they're a lot more passive and many of those attackers have ways around them (ReturnToMonke, Solaros, Zarel, Arcueid...). I can't think of much more than Nyx and InTheHills to consistently beat Rumia. Meanwhile it freely setups on anything it walls, burns them and stops all progress with Strength Sap, and it's still insanely bulky without Eviolite. I suggest Strength Sap gets replaced with Moonlight: can get worn down under non-sun weather, reduces its ability to brick attackers (though it'd still be insane at it) and fits the mon thematically.

Moreso Kalalokki's stats are a little unremarkable for its sig to just be a Head Smash recolor. For the recoil it has I think making it ignore defensive abilities like Youkai of the Dusk. Could turn Kalalokki into a cool dedicated Physical counter to Rumia (provided Rumia doesn't Tera).

On a side note Kyurem's a bit stupid. Like Gigas, too much immediate breaking power with a bit much bulk and speed. Only this time it has two STABS and a Mountain Gale that hits 50% harder than Call of Repentance.
 
Zac Bread said:
Just witnessed a Knot Weak from Kalalokki doing 57% to Rumia. This is kind of ridiculous and raises the question about Rumia: should it counter physical attackers that hard? R8 and xy01 are also hard counters to special attackers but they're a lot more passive and many of those attackers have ways around them (ReturnToMonke, Solaros, Zarel, Arcueid...). I can't think of much more than Nyx and InTheHills to consistently beat Rumia. Meanwhile it freely setups on anything it walls, burns them and stops all progress with Strength Sap, and it's still insanely bulky without Eviolite. I suggest Strength Sap gets replaced with Moonlight: can get worn down under non-sun weather, reduces its ability to brick attackers (though it'd still be insane at it) and fits the mon thematically.

Moreso Kalalokki's stats are a little unremarkable for its sig to just be a Head Smash recolor. For the recoil it has I think making it ignore defensive abilities like Youkai of the Dusk. Could turn Kalalokki into a cool dedicated Physical counter to Rumia (provided Rumia doesn't Tera).

On a side note Kyurem's a bit stupid. Like Gigas, too much immediate breaking power with a bit much bulk and speed. Only this time it has two STABS and a Mountain Gale that hits 50% harder than Call of Repentance.
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Hard agree with everything here, except InTheHills doesn't even beat Rumia, it just walls it. Strength Sap and Tidy Up go even, but it's not like Rumia needs to sap every time InTheHills boosts, so you effectively just end up with both mons on 0 PP if they both stay in.
 
Discordual said:
I'd be more worried about Aelita behind a veil with a free setup opportunity
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Might be a good time to point out yeetdab should not be putting up free, 8-turn Aurora Veils if it's also spreading paralysing, using priority, removing items, dealing consistent damage, healing itself, tanking special hits and cheating death.

Yuki's combination of Aurora Veil and a strong pivoting move can also be a problem but at the very least having a weather-summoning mon like Pissog or Waves can stop it from doing one half of its job, and Yuki has more than one weakness to exploit. It's borderline impossible to kill yeetdab without getting at least one or two of your mons crippled in some way.
 
Zac Bread said:
Might be a good time to point out yeetdab should not be putting up free, 8-turn Aurora Veils if it's also spreading paralysing, using priority, removing items, dealing consistent damage, healing itself, tanking special hits and cheating death.
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I do want to correct a mistake I made previously, yee dab xd's Aurora Veil is actually 5 turns and not 8. What happens is that it activates at turn end, and then at the start of the next turn, the turns left tracker at the top left counts down one for the Aurora Veil, but the actual duration for the Aurora Veil behaves differently and doesn't count down one yet because the Aurora Veil went up after the turn was already ended. After 4 turns, the tracker hits 5 turns elapsed, and assumes that since the Aurora Veil is still up, it must have been extended to 8 turns, but in actuality the Aurora Veil then ends at the end of the next turn. I assume this discrepancy exists because the very idea of a barrier going up after the turn ends was never considered a possibility.

That said, this doesn't change the fact that yeet dab xd can keep the Aurora Veil up with 100% uptime by using Top Kek, all while also doing damage and flinging out all of its other unfair abilities.

I also mentioned before that part of the issue with yeet dab xd and Bert112 is that even if they're asleep or paralyzed, their ability-called moves still proc, and there are pretty much no counters that can soak up those bonus moves without getting mildly to severely crippled. For yeet dab xd, you need a strong (preferably) physical attacker that can't or doesn't mind being paralyzed, isn't attached to its item, is bulky enough to survive the chip damage from Blast Seed, Top Kek, and Frustration, has enough power to break through the Aurora Veil-boosted bulk, and has enough staying power to KO yeet dab xd twice. For Bert122, you need an attacker that has self-targeting moves to avoid Scatter and Shatter (or a Protect piercing attack), is special or immune to Burn, doesn't mind losing its item, isn't weak to Dark (if Perstering Assault's Knock Off hits, it can do severe damage if super-effective and hitting a mon with unremarkable damage, and again, not even Sleep can stop it), and even then Taunt, Torment, and Confusion can shut down any setup attempt and give a guaranteed Shatter and Scatter (or if the opponent switches, the replacement gets subjected to Pestering Assault again).
 
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please mind the really odd battle (testing aQrator's intro vs. WarriorGallade kinda went off the rails quickly) but... Ganjafin's Gambling Addiction seems to have weird interactions with form changes (i.e Sigil's Storm); seen here (Turn 81)
 
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