Sustainability of the Pokémon model

[iamfanboy]

Any arbitrary level cap is kinda meaningless when it comes to reducing complication, so leaving at at 100 or reducing it to 80 would really do nothing.

However, of the three stat-influencing systems (EVs, IVs, Nature) IVs add the least and could certainly go.

EVs allow same-species Pokemon to do different jobs, or cover weaknesses - how much of the Smogon metagame is about using EVs to just barely survive certain hits, attain certain KOs with mixed attacking stats, or just outspeeding threats? It's also something that all players can see, and have explained easily: "Your pokemon get stat experience for KO'ing other pokemon. See this Super-Training section? That's how it works."

Nature allows same-species Pokemon to be different from each other natively, and once again do different jobs - there's a big difference between an Impish Gliscor that tanks physical hits, and a mixed wall Careful Gliscor that can take hits from both sides.

For IVs, on the other hand... Beginning players do not see the IV system, it doesn't influence their play. For expert players it only serves to uselessly extend out gameplay while they grind for perfect IVs, either by breeding or (in Gen6) SR'ing legendaries til their Nature and IVs match. I spent 8 hours earlier this week SR'ing for a Bold Suicune that had usable IVs; eventually I settled on 27/20/31/31/31/30 because life's too short to stress about perfection.

For all intents and purposes, IVs separate the expert-level trainers into two categories: one that has the time to waste seeking perfection, and one that doesn't.

The one other, practical in-game effect it does is influence Hidden Power, but that's a thing which is either ignored by casual players, cursed by mid-level players ("What do you MEAN, my goddamn Suicune's Hidden Power is... ICE!?"), and serves to stretch out the gameplay for top-level players EVEN MORE as they seek the 'perfect hidden power' - what's the guy's record for seeking HP Fire on his Yvetal in the soft reset thread? Something like 2k+ attempts?

That's time spent not battling, just preparing to battle. It's as useless a time-waster as... all the walking in Skyrim. It gives an illusion of depth, not the actual reality of depth.

If they wanted HP to be controlled by the player, have it go off of a pokemon's current Effort Values - and once they learn that HP, lock it in so it doesn't change if the EV does. If they want it uncontrollable, have it go off the pokemon's personality value.

And your argument, "But what about all the players who spent time getting..." is classic sunk cost fallacy: that time spent is gone, utterly wasted, and if Game Freak eliminates IVs that doesn't make the time spent any less or more meaningless. Read this and think about it.


But while eliminating IVs would help reduce time spent for top-level players, it wouldn't help the underlying problem, which is stated thusly:

There are too many Pokemon, too many moves, and too many items, and this number is going to increase until it reaches a point of collapse.

It won't happen next generation, or the generation after that, but it is a foreseeable problem, and if a couple of joes on a forum can do that, then GF is looking at it too. Hell, it might not be an exaggeration to say the fate of Nintendo rests upon Pokemon being viable for as long as possible.

What Codaroll, Climatechange, and a couple others are trying to do is guess ahead at what they're likely to do to remedy this problem.

 

[hypno28]

Whether or not IVs are worth keeping from a gameplay perspective (they are), they absolutely can't be removed because that conceptually makes no sense whatsoever. Some members of the same species are naturally better than others, and not having some representation of that would be absurd.

 

[Glen ^^]

Yes they are all worth it. EVs aren't really there to make the "perfect Pokémon" like you think they are. They are there so that the trainers can see their Pokémon developing and getting stronger, and not just +1 in each stat every level

That's the point of base stats, not EVs. You won't notice what difference EVs makes unless you have a calculator nearby.

If anything, EVs serve as a way of balancing the opponents. See: Ghetsis' Hydreigon with maxed out EVs.

It means that at level 100 two Pokémon with the same perfect IVs and Nature could still be different, and is an integral part of the Pokémon franchise by this stage. IVs DO give Pokémon that sense of personality and uniqueness in-game. Plus, gen 6 has made it much MUCH easier to breed perfect IVs onto a Pokémon. Natures are also important, because they give each Pokémon a sense of uniqueness while also being something a more casual player can check easily and change by catching another of the species until they find an at least decent nature

Do we really need uniqueness on a game with over 700 species?
It reminds me of the meme that says "Being unique doesn't makes you useful".

Also, as far as casuals goes, I don' know any that likes the concept of natures, IVs, and EVs.

They've already simplified the process of getting perfect IVs on a Pokémon heavily, so be happy with that.

Just because something sucks less, doesn't means it's fixed. Hell, the national champion openly admits he barely play the games and had Pokemon bred for him. If that's how GF expected the best players to compete, I don't know what to say.

 

[rufus drumknott]

Just because something sucks less, doesn't means it's fixed. Hell, the national champion openly admits he barely play the games and had Pokemon bred for him. If that's how GF expected the best players to compete, I don't know what to say.

There's more than one way to be good at Pokemon, which is one of the reasons we like it so much, as has been pointed out. Just because battling is a fundamental part of Pokemon doesn't mean the best player is the one who can smash the most opponents, because there are lots of ways to be good at this game. I understand what you're saying but that person is just one guy. No, seriously. There are people here who love breeding for IVs, and they love training their Pokemon, and they love battling with those Pokemon. Personally, and I've mentioned this in different topics before, if IVs and breeding stopped being a thing, I'd laugh, and play new Pokemon games by borrowing them from friends to not waste money. Then I'd go on breeding in my gen 6 games.

Buttt this is off-topic tbh. I think it's been shown from the amount of debate (instead of discussion) that getting rid of existing constant elements (like IVs and similar moves, not talking about stuff like customisation and your Pokemon following you around that were only present in one series) is not the way for GF to sustain the Pokemon model. And the whole 'necessity of natures/IVs/EVs' thing has been discussed to death anyway.

 

[Celever]

Any arbitrary level cap is kinda meaningless when it comes to reducing complication, so leaving at at 100 or reducing it to 80 would really do nothing.

True, so leaving it at 100 makes sense for consistency purposes.

However, of the three stat-influencing systems (EVs, IVs, Nature) IVs add the least and could certainly go.

EVs allow same-species Pokemon to do different jobs, or cover weaknesses - how much of the Smogon metagame is about using EVs to just barely survive certain hits, attain certain KOs with mixed attacking stats, or just outspeeding threats? It's also something that all players can see, and have explained easily: "Your pokemon get stat experience for KO'ing other pokemon. See this Super-Training section? That's how it works."

Nature allows same-species Pokemon to be different from each other natively, and once again do different jobs - there's a big difference between an Impish Gliscor that tanks physical hits, and a mixed wall Careful Gliscor that can take hits from both sides.

For IVs, on the other hand... Beginning players do not see the IV system, it doesn't influence their play. For expert players it only serves to uselessly extend out gameplay while they grind for perfect IVs, either by breeding or (in Gen6) SR'ing legendaries til their Nature and IVs match. I spent 8 hours earlier this week SR'ing for a Bold Suicune that had usable IVs; eventually I settled on 27/20/31/31/31/30 because life's too short to stress about perfection.

For all intents and purposes, IVs separate the expert-level trainers into two categories: one that has the time to waste seeking perfection, and one that doesn't.

Most players will not know what EVs are. They will know that by KO'ing Pokémon their own Pokémon get stronger, yes, but the concept of each Pokémon boosting one or two of their stats more is alien to them. Also, while IVs don't mean anything to a casual player, the point still stands: What does GF gain by getting rid of them? A casual player wanting to get into the franchise doesn't give two shits about an IV, and competitive players either enjoy the process of breeding, or they play on a simulator. I said it earlier, it's simplifying the game in a way in which the only people who will actually know it was simplified are the people who want the game to be complex. That seems flawed, don't you think?

The one other, practical in-game effect it does is influence Hidden Power, but that's a thing which is either ignored by casual players, cursed by mid-level players ("What do you MEAN, my goddamn Suicune's Hidden Power is... ICE!?"), and serves to stretch out the gameplay for top-level players EVEN MORE as they seek the 'perfect hidden power' - what's the guy's record for seeking HP Fire on his Yvetal in the soft reset thread? Something like 2k+ attempts?

That's time spent not battling, just preparing to battle. It's as useless a time-waster as... all the walking in Skyrim. It gives an illusion of depth, not the actual reality of depth.

If they wanted HP to be controlled by the player, have it go off of a pokemon's current Effort Values - and once they learn that HP, lock it in so it doesn't change if the EV does. If they want it uncontrollable, have it go off the pokemon's personality value.

This wouldn't work, as EVs exist to boost stats higher, not for Hidden Power. A competitive Pokémon would have to have a certain EV set, which would force Pokémon into having obsolete EVs... which is simply bad game design. Hidden Powers are clearly also not supposed to be random! The player has control over what typing they are, and breeding for the perfect Hidden Power gives them a goal and something to do with their time.

If they don't want to do it, they can play on a simulator, or ask someone who can be bothered to trade them a Pokémon with the perfect IVs and hidden power, which I'm sure GameFreak recognises.

And your argument, "But what about all the players who spent time getting..." is classic sunk cost fallacy: that time spent is gone, utterly wasted, and if Game Freak eliminates IVs that doesn't make the time spent any less or more meaningless. Read this and think about it.

So what do you want GF to do? The players will feel like their time was wasted whether it is a fallacy or not. Game Freak can't say "hey, so those Pokémon that you spent so much time making them the best that they can be are now a lower level and the IV mechanics are totally eradicated. DON'T WORRY THOUGH YOUR TIME WASN'T WASTED THAT'S A FALLACY! :D" How do you think their fans would respond to that? I'm leaning negatively...

But while eliminating IVs would help reduce time spent for top-level players, it wouldn't help the underlying problem, which is stated thusly:

"There are too many Pokemon, too many moves, and too many items, and this number is going to increase until it reaches a point of collapse."

It won't happen next generation, or the generation after that, but it is a foreseeable problem, and if a couple of joes on a forum can do that, then GF is looking at it too. Hell, it might not be an exaggeration to say the fate of Nintendo rests upon Pokemon being viable for as long as possible.

What Codaroll, Climatechange, and a couple others are trying to do is guess ahead at what they're likely to do to remedy this problem.

There aren't too many Pokémon, moves OR items, as each serve their own purpose. This isn't going to collapse as a player can ignore the vast majority of items, moves and Pokémon and get by just fine. Every single part of Pokémon serves some kind of purpose right now, and to remove any of them would be fucking over the fans of said thing real hard, even if it is just an item.

Think about when the gems were axed in gen 6 besides Normal Gem. A lot of people in the competitive community got really pissed about it -- particularly in doubles where they are a legit thing and NU where they also saw some use -- and I think that Game Freak should learn from their mistake with it. Something as small as an item or set of items being cut caused a lot of misery for a few weeks at least. Think about what would happen if Berry Juice is cut like someone suggested before in the Little Cup community!

That's the point of base stats, not EVs. You won't notice what difference EVs makes unless you have a calculator nearby.

If anything, EVs serve as a way of balancing the opponents. See: Ghetsis' Hydreigon with maxed out EVs.

Wrong. As a kid it always fascinated me why certain stats rose more than others whenever I leveled up. EVs are an integral part of this system. Many casual players notice the difference, but don't know that it is EVs at play.

And yeah, while base stats are also a large thing which contribute to this mechanic, it isn't so much about growth as EVs are. With base stats you catch a Pokémon look at it and pretty much think "I should put physical moves on this one!" when in-game. IVs and Nature also contributes to this, but it is mainly base stats at play unless your Pokémon in question happens to have identical/similar base stats between physical and special. Nevertheless, EVs and base stats play a different role, and this is irrefutable.

Do we really need uniqueness on a game with over 700 species?
It reminds me of the meme that says "Being unique doesn't makes you useful".

Also, as far as casuals goes, I don' know any that likes the concept of natures, IVs, and EVs.

No, and I have described this earlier. Each species doesn't have to be unique from another species. However, uniqueness WITHIN a species makes the Pokémon feel alive, and is an integral part of the DNA at this stage.

Also, as far as casuals go, I know many that like the concept of natures. They don't know much about IVs or EVs, but many are aware that they exist and think it's neat, but they pay no attention to it. I would say this is how the vast majority of casual or middling players are, which is realistically the demographic which buys the most games and as such the demographic while GF wants to appeal to the most.

Just because something sucks less, doesn't means it's fixed. Hell, the national champion openly admits he barely play the games and had Pokemon bred for him. If that's how GF expected the best players to compete, I don't know what to say.

One guy openly admitted he barely plays the game and had Pokémon bred for him. This means that all competitive players do that!!!

Please take a look at the following subforums on this website to see how fallacious that viewpoint is:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/battle-spot.265/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/wi-fi.53/

The wi-fi community on smogon is absolutely huge. Plus, there are large communities on other websites centred around breeding, and the vast majority of players who go to official Nintendo-run Pokémon tournaments WILL breed their Pokémon themselves. You can't take one person's word as gospel just because he is the national champion in the general topic we are talking about. Especially when he openly admits that he has little-to-no experience in the more exact topic anyway!

 

[iamfanboy]

I've got nothing against the champ having someone breed his pokemon for him - though it does remind me of that Furisode Girl in the Battle Chateau... Time = money. If you have money to exchange for someone else to spend the time breeding perfect pokemon, that's a valid use. It would be nice if that weren't the case, but can't have everything.

For everyone defending IVs, I want to know: What do they actually add to the gameplay?

The casual player knows about Natures (helps since they started highlighting what a nature adds and subtracts in HG/SS), and knows about EVs, but IVs are a thing which simply doesn't affect them at all. The competitive scene EXISTS on a standard of 31 IVs. If you don't have the time to breed for/catch the 31 IV Pokemon, then you're competing on a top level - so IVs may as well not damn exist, because they have NO effect on actual gameplay. What was the quote used earlier? "If everyone is super, than no one is super"?

The difference between having the IV system and not having the IV system is just a matter of time put into the game. It's a time sink, like Farmville's delay on watering your crops.

But enough of that. They exist, taking them out doesn't do much other than save time for tournament players, and probably won't go away. Celever,

There aren't too many Pokémon, moves OR items, as each serve their own purpose. This isn't going to collapse as a player can ignore the vast majority of items, moves and Pokémon and get by just fine. Every single part of Pokémon serves some kind of purpose right now, and to remove any of them would be fucking over the fans of said thing real hard, even if it is just an item.

Which part of, "It's a not a problem NOW, but it is approaching, and something is going to be done about it," did you choose to ignore, other than the whole thing?

Why do you dislike the question, "At what point does the current model of Pokemon, which adds new moves, new Pokemon, and new items, collapse?" so much your only answer is, "Things are fine now, and will stay fine forever!"


And the gems are a perfect example of what would happen if they changed the game system. Some people would get upset, and then forget about it in a few weeks except for a rare few that hold seeds of bitterness deep inside themselves over the pettiest of change. I still remember the outcry on this forum about Team Preview: it changed a fundamental aspect of the game, the dedicated lead (and hurt one of my fave pokes, Froslass, competitively), but it changed, and we dealt with it.

I have no doubt that if the current Pokemon community existed in 1999 as did now, the Special split from Gen1 to Gen2 would have caused a great bellowing and beating of chests, despite it being the healthiest thing for the Pokemon game at the time and to this day. I'm sure there were some people whose nerdrage circuits were activated when they put Abilities and Natures into Gen 3. "Sturdy is the dumbest ability! If my Pokemon is strong enough to KO the Pokemon it should just KO the fucking Pokemon!"

Change happens, and has happened, and will happen - and HAS to, because the current model isn't sustainable for a company as forward-thinking as Nintendo is.

 

[rufus drumknott]

Change happens, and has happened, and will happen - and HAS to, because the current model isn't sustainable for a company as forward-thinking as Nintendo is.

There's no argument that change has to happen - heck, we expect battle mechanics to change each generation, new Pokemon, moves, abilities, to be introduced, and so on - but the question in this thread is 'What is an appropriate change?' What Celever is saying that your idea of the appropriate change is inappropriate (and I agree, but that may be irrelevant).

True enough that people always complain about change, but consider the fact that those changes didn't make the most of the Pokemon demographic drop the games immediately. What I argue is that the changes you are proposing would make the audience go off the games for reasons I am so not going into again, but I'll just summarise: they add flavour, they add an interesting complex element for those who care and there are a great deal of those who care - oh, and it's not just full 31s that people aim to every time (Life Orb HP numbers, Hidden Powers, Trick Room, reducing Foul Play/confusion damage).

Edit: I think it's clear I feel strongly about this ... I'll shut up now lol.

 

[Celever]

iamfanboy I'm just going to leave a paragraph or two as opposed to replying to each of your points individually as this is getting repetitive now:

You are ignoring points I have made which you cannot answer. The only thing removing IVs will do is make the game simpler for those who want it to be complex, as those who want the game to be simple don't know about it in the first place. They just know that each Pokémon is unique, and 99% of Pokémon players love that idea. I'm sure you do, too.

The solution you have proposed doesn't seem to be related to an actual problem. What exactly will become problematic? Hardware will improve alongside the depth of Pokémon, and spending more time on making actual games as opposed to rushing them out like they did with ORAS is necessary, and I made a full post detailing this earlier on. This isn't due to having too many mechanics, though. Culling or merging mechanics, items, Pokémon and/or moves is not the answer and it is clear to see why.

The gems example is actually a very obscure and minor item. The point of the example is showing that something as small as a one-time use gem caused many fans to become irate. Imagine what culling a Pokémon or Berry Juice would do! Game Freak headquarters would probably be burnt down!

I have made a few posts earlier on in this discussion about what Game Freak should do moving forward, and i think that every hypothetical solution to the problem the OP actually described will be a lot easier for Game Freak to do at a far lower possible cost of losing fans and as such customers and money. Culling or merging aspects of the game simply will not work...

 

[iamfanboy]

And why won't they work, other than the idea of "it would offend the fans" -

Nope, I can't. I think I need to go off Pokemon for a while. I'm starting to act like it's important - okay, it's important to Nintendo and Game Freak, but I've spent far too much time on these posts that could be spent dealing with something else, like more freelance work or painting my Christmas present of a chibi kitsune to look like Braixen.

Or does that count as Pokemon too?

I'm right (about changes needing to be made, if not the exact changes), but you're right too. Of course Game Freak worries about the fanbase they've built up over the last twenty years, because nowadays they ARE the fans - the guys who code the game now are the ones who cursed their Game Boy's dying batteries as they threw ball after ball at Mewtwo.

So it's in good hands.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Wow, a lot of posts, I think I'll handle this a page at a time:

Anyway, I feel that I've given enough examples by now. I'd like to hear what you think. Here are some suggested (note: not required) points of discussion:

• What aspects of the current model of Pokémon will conflict with our desire for GameFreak to keep making new games?
• Is there a problem at all by this point? Will there be in the foreseeable future? Or am I unnecessarily worried?
  
• Will fixing the problem(s) require a total model overhaul? Will Pokémon continue to be Pokémon if measures are implemented to fix the problems? I.e. sacrificing existing content to make place for something new, or drastically changing gameplay.
• How does Mega Evolution fit into this? A bold move to keep things from going stale, or another system that won't scale well as time goes by?
  
• Are there easy solutions to any problems? Please do not suggest anything without analysing the situation first, and for Pete's sake try to be credible. This is not a wishlist thread and posts such as this will be deleted within seconds of us even noticing them.

Happy discussing!

1. I think just the number of Pokemon, or at least catching them. That's the main point of the game and we're a few generations away from getting over 1,000. Even if they're starting to slow down now we still have over 700 Pokemon which the game encourages us to catch em' all.
2. At the moment no, they seem to have the situation under control and the task doesn't seem too unbearable, but as I said in the future we're going to have over 1,000 (and that's not counting forms) and at that point problems can start arising.
3. Going by what I see as the main problem, I wouldn't say the model needs to change. To me there one thing that needs to change is one of the "goals" of the game: collecting them. I think we might want to consider getting rid of the concept of "catching em' all" and more focus on you training a core group of Pokemon. Like you're given the Regional Dex to fill like usual, but instead of then giving you the National Dex to fill afterwards I think they should have the National Dex filled already. Put focus on the Pokemon catchable in the game and then let the player decide if they want to go outside of the game to get other Pokemon they like.
4. As long as Mega Evolutions are considered just a power-up then I don't really see any problems. That said, I do think they might want to get rid of the idea that every Pokemon need its own unique Mega Stone. Have it just be one Mega Stone and then require the Pokemon to Mega Evolve have it deeding a high Friendship or high affection with it in Pokemon-Amie (you can also limit it via Badge number/being the Champion). Of course we then have Pokemon with two Mega Stones and maybe for those you can have a second special Mega Stone that only works on those Pokemon (these Mega Evolutions will have the Pokemon radically change from how it's normally it, like Charizard X and Mewtwo X). I would also say maybe work on some Mega Pokemon and give them stats that are "Mega" worthy because sometimes a 100+ increase isn't enough.
5. No easy solution. Even if you get rid of the "catch em' all" enforcing after the Regional Dex you'll still have players who want to "catch em' all" and it wouldn't be right to ignore them. XY decreasing the number of new Pokemon is a good idea to decrease this burden but it'll only help so much. The idea of the PokeNav opened up new ideas that you can go back to later areas and search for new Pokemon that you couldn't have before which helps.

New Inspirations For Pokemon:
Yeah... I have like a whole Notepad document of ideas going from animals, plants, objects, concepts, and mythology (what? I get easily bored...). Not only do I have them split up in categories, I have subcategories of subcategories. Trust me, there is NO lacking for inspiration of Pokemon.

Creation Of New Pokemon:
I think a good route for GameFreak to go decreasing the number of newly released Pokemon is by first getting the main idea of what the story of the game is (especially in terms of types of the Gym Leaders, Elite Four (and possibly Champion), and possibly the villain team). Then design the first few initial Pokemon are what the story demands. After that fill in any needed gaps and in doing so I think they will not only keep the numbers down but also give us all the new Pokemon we'll need, especially if they include a ton of older Pokemon to further fill in any missing gaps.

Culling:
Honestly, if GameFreak was to do that they might as well reboot the entire franchise. Why only try to clean up some of the extra baggage when you can get rid of all of it and start from scratch (if I recall I think Digimon tried doing that by having a virus delete many Digimon except those who had a gene that made them immune to it).
Getting rid of some Pokemon isn't going to solve any problems, if anything it'll cause more. It'll chase away fans either because they got rid of their favorite Pokemon or they feel that at any moment GameFreak can get rid of their favorite so why stick around and wait for it to happen?

Well that ends page 1, I'll come back later and start on page 2.

 

[Detective Barricade]

3. Going by what I see as the main problem, I wouldn't say the model needs to change. To me there one thing that needs to change is one of the "goals" of the game: collecting them. I think we might want to consider getting rid of the concept of "catching em' all" and more focus on you training a core group of Pokemon. Like you're given the Regional Dex to fill like usual, but instead of then giving you the National Dex to fill afterwards I think they should have the National Dex filled already. Put focus on the Pokemon catchable in the game and then let the player decide if they want to go outside of the game to get other Pokemon they like.

Interesting idea, but I would have the national Pokemon as seen so there's still a level of encouragement to catch them and get their data. Also helps in not having to change the requirements for the reward of the Shiny Charm - you'd still have to catch them all to get it, but now you'd have a better sense of which ones you're missing.

I don't know if reworking the Mega Stones will help any, since they give a clear indication which Pokemon can in fact Mega Evolve. Ideally, they could have just two, Mega Stone X and Mega Stone Y which all Pokemon that can Mega Evolve use, (with Charizard and Mewtwo Mega Evolving into the one that matches the stone they're holding - X to go X, Y to go Y) but they didn't do that and we've got what we got. I imagine it'd be a pain in the ass to go in there and clear them all then add one or two new ones and make sure it works correctly with all of the Pokemon including those that can't (yet) Mega Evolve. Isn't the Azure Flute and Magma Badge still in the game's coding, despite long since no longer having need for it? (the former having never been used at all)

And for those who aren't Mega enough, perhaps they can stop dumping points in a stat it's clearly still never going to use? Or they can buff the base form and remember to still apply that change for the Mega? Then again, it's Game Freak's games, they probably had their reasons why certain Mega Evolutions ended up how they did. (they can't all be as ridiculously awesome as Beedrill)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Interesting idea, but I would have the national Pokemon as seen so there's still a level of encouragement to catch them and get their data. Also helps in not having to change the requirements for the reward of the Shiny Charm - you'd still have to catch them all to get it, but now you'd have a better sense of which ones you're missing.

I don't know if reworking the Mega Stones will help any, since they give a clear indication which Pokemon can in fact Mega Evolve. Ideally, they could have just two, Mega Stone X and Mega Stone Y which all Pokemon that can Mega Evolve use, (with Charizard and Mewtwo Mega Evolving into the one that matches the stone they're holding - X to go X, Y to go Y) but they didn't do that and we've got what we got. I imagine it'd be a pain in the ass to go in there and clear them all then add one or two new ones and make sure it works correctly with all of the Pokemon including those that can't (yet) Mega Evolve. Isn't the Azure Flute and Magma Badge still in the game's coding, despite long since no longer having need for it? (the former having never been used at all)

And for those who aren't Mega enough, perhaps they can stop dumping points in a stat it's clearly still never going to use? Or they can buff the base form and remember to still apply that change for the Mega? Then again, it's Game Freak's games, they probably had their reasons why certain Mega Evolutions ended up how they did. (they can't all be as ridiculously awesome as Beedrill)

Pokedex

I'm still not so sure about even marking the National Dex Pokemon as seen. My point was that one of the main problems is that there's going to be so many Pokemon soon (if there wasn't already) which is making Dex completion harder and harder. Getting rid of some Pokemon is out of the question (because as I said, if you're going to do that then just reboot the whole franchise which they aren't going to do) so one of the solutions I see is to get rid of the mentality you gotta "catch em' all". Rewarding them for doing so would be encouraging them to "catch em' all", especially when the end prize is an item everyone would want. I think what XY did with their regional dex would provide just enough challenge to make completing it rewarding enough leaving the National Dex as a plain old Pokemon dictionary. Here's some ideas I just thought up:

1. Make the regional dex expansive like they did in XY, having a majority of the Pokemon in it. Make the Oval Charm the reward for SEEING every Regional Pokemon and the Shiny Charm for CATCHING every Regional Pokemon.
2. So then what would be the point of the National Dex then? Well if they include a DexNav function maybe you can use it to search for that Pokemon in the post game. Or maybe you can use the National Pokedex to help train that Pokemon in some way (like maybe being able to teach the Pokemon a move it can naturally learn (though to make the Move Relearner still relevant he can teach a Pokemon an Egg/Event moves it once knew and for evolved Pokemon those moves they "learn" at a level they can't evolve at) or even help shape its EVs/IVs).

Also I always found it odd for the Pokemon in the National Dex that you can't get in the Regional Dex wasn't filled in. I spent the previous games collecting data on the Pokemon in those regions, yet the National Dex is still blank? What are the Pokemon Professor's doing with all the data I collected? They aren't sharing? I can get why old Pokemon in the Regional Dex aren't filled out, they're in the region thus you're theoretically collecting new data on them (that said I would like old Pokemon that are in Regional Dex to have new Pokedex entries and not the same recycled info we're told each time). But what about the ones in the National Dex who's info we're obviously getting from foreign sources?

And finally if you still want to "catch em' all", I think you can keep track of the Pokemon you have yourself.

Items

From what I remember from the data dumps, ALL items since I think Gen IV are still in the game's memory. If there has to be all the Mega Stones, then how about this: give us a better bag system. Usable/Held Items, Medicine, Pokeballs, Mega Stones, Berries, TMs/HMs, Key Items, and some additional Free Space (which we can name). If not that then at least a search feature where I can type the item's name.

Mega Pokemon

To me a Mega Pokemon's stats should be near a Legendary. My idea for buffing up a Mega Pokemon's stat is by giving it the initial +100 increase and if it doesn't go over 580 (the standard BST of the Trio Legendaries) they keep adding +50 until it's equal or goes above.

Anyway onto the last few subject I want to comment on:

Power Creep

For a while now I think GameFreak really needed to take a good look at each Pokemon and sort of do a re-evaluation on it. I know that sounds like a huge undertaking, but if GameFreak wants to make sure Pokemon lasts I think they need to rebalance the game and re-adjust some stats and movepools (maybe even Abilities). I'm not suggesting they change a Pokemon's role or give it a different type, I'm just saying figure out firmly what this Pokemon is, what does it do in battle, and what tools does it need to do that.

On a side subject, I think limiting a Pokemon to a max two Abilities and a Hidden Ability is no longer viable. Each gen they release new Abilities and some match an older Pokemon but that Pokemon already has its two Abilities + Hidden Ability. I say we allow Pokemon to have as many Abilities as they want (WITHIN CONTEXT), deciding what they have immediate access to and what they need to do to get the others (do they need to breed for it? Go to an "Ability Tutor"? Maybe keep the idea of Hidden Abilities).

IVs and Natures

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think it's time we gave options to how we can adjust IVs and Natures. For Natures I think there should be a "Nature Tutor" that can change change a Pokemon's Nature. For IVs I think there should be someway to increase them. I suggested this somewhere else and got into a bit of a heated debate, but I still stand by the idea. The main criticism to it was that it takes away the effort some trainers put in actually hatching the perfect Pokemon. However I argue that as long as they provide these method's own drawbacks it could work out to the same amount of work. Like in order to use these services it'll cost a lot of money (in addition the IV thing can only increase an IV in one stat by one point once per day). Infact this may even encourage trainers to try hatching a good Pokemon and then taking it to a "Nature Tutor" and/or an "IV Raiser" to fix up any of the things that's keeping it from being perfect. Trainers who still hatch for a perfect Pokemon would be rewarded with being able to do it cheaply and possibly even within a day or two.

 

[hypno28]

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think it's time we gave options to how we can adjust IVs and Natures. For Natures I think there should be a "Nature Tutor" that can change change a Pokemon's Nature. For IVs I think there should be someway to increase them. I suggested this somewhere else and got into a bit of a heated debate, but I still stand by the idea. The main criticism to it was that it takes away the effort some trainers put in actually hatching the perfect Pokemon. However I argue that as long as they provide these method's own drawbacks it could work out to the same amount of work. Like in order to use these services it'll cost a lot of money (in addition the IV thing can only increase an IV in one stat by one point once per day). Infact this may even encourage trainers to try hatching a good Pokemon and then taking it to a "Nature Tutor" and/or an "IV Raiser" to fix up any of the things that's keeping it from being perfect. Trainers who still hatch for a perfect Pokemon would be rewarded with being able to do it cheaply and possibly even within a day or two.

I completely agree. In fact, let's go all the way and just include PokeGen software with every purchase of the games.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I completely agree. In fact, let's go all the way and just include PokeGen software with every purchase of the games.

Let's not go that far. Take this scenario:

You've spent a few hours hatching a Pokemon with perfect IVs. This new one hatched and it has everything you want. The perfect Nature and right Ability. You go to the IV Checker and you're horrified to find that it's a few points low of having a few of its stats being perfect 31. Now you'll need to spend who knows how many more hours hatching another one. If only there was a way to just increase those IVs missing just a few measly points. Well with my idea it would cost quite a bit of money and may take a few days, but you'll be able to do just that. You either spend a few hours trying to hatch the perfect Pokemon you want (quicker and cheaper, but tedious) or you can wait a few days and spend a lot of money (easier, but expensive and you'll need to wait). It's more of a "pick your poison" type deal.

 

[hypno28]

Let's not go that far. Take this scenario:

You've spent a few hours hatching a Pokemon with perfect IVs. This new one hatched and it has everything you want. The perfect Nature and right Ability. You go to the IV Checker and you're horrified to find that it's a few points low of having a few of its stats being perfect 31. Now you'll need to spend who knows how many more hours hatching another one. If only there was a way to just increase those IVs missing just a few measly points. Well with my idea it would cost quite a bit of money and may take a few days, but you'll be able to do just that. You either spend a few hours trying to hatch the perfect Pokemon you want (quicker and cheaper, but tedious) or you can wait a few days and spend a lot of money (easier, but expensive and you'll need to wait). It's more of a "pick your poison" type deal.

Dude, breeding is not that hard.

Even if you put aside how conceptually awful what you're proposing is, it's actually more work and more time-consuming for the player. The only time it would be nice is if you hatch a nearly perfect shiny and want to "fix" it. But, again, you shouldn't be able to. How hard it is to hatch one is essentially the reason you're trying to in the first place.

You can already "fix" their IVs if you want, with a power save. Why not just do that? It's essentially the same thing.

 

[Codraroll]

While IVs, EVs and Natures might be annoying, I'd say they have little to do in this topic, since they seem like a fairly sustainable concept. GameFreak could churn out another ten thousand Pokémon, and the system would work just like it does today. Still annoying, but their continuation wouldn't hinder the development process or become repetitive content-wise. Neither are GameFreak going to "run out of" them unlike, say, unique type combinations. So unless you can make a good case against those systems hurting the sustainability of Pokémon in the long run, I'd rather not have any further discussion on the subject(s) here. Go make great posts in the annoyances thread instead.

 

[Pikachu315111]

While IVs, EVs and Natures might be annoying, I'd say they have little to do in this topic, since they seem like a fairly sustainable concept. GameFreak could churn out another ten thousand Pokémon, and the system would work just like it does today. Still annoying, but their continuation wouldn't hinder the development process or become repetitive content-wise. Neither are GameFreak going to "run out of" them unlike, say, unique type combinations. So unless you can make a good case against those systems hurting the sustainability of Pokémon in the long run, I'd rather not have any further discussion on the subject(s) here. Go make great posts in the annoyances thread instead.

I agree, the sustainability of Pokemon would be dependent on more "surface" details rather then inner game mechanics.

Since you brought up the topic of unique type combinations, let's talk about that for a bit. Obviously this is probably one of the if not the most best ways to make a new Pokemon interesting to new players (the other will probably be a gimmicky Ability). Now making the assumption they won't be introducing a new type, how many Generations do you think it'll take for us to eventually have a Pokemon of each type combination? Also should a Pokemon of a new type combination take priority over a Pokemon that's of an already existing type combination? I'd imagine that if there's a theoretically "peak" to Pokemon's sustainability it'll probably be around that time.

 

[Codraroll]

Since you brought up the topic of unique type combinations, let's talk about that for a bit. Obviously this is probably one of the if not the most best ways to make a new Pokemon interesting to new players (the other will probably be a gimmicky Ability). Now making the assumption they won't be introducing a new type, how many Generations do you think it'll take for us to eventually have a Pokemon of each type combination? Also should a Pokemon of a new type combination take priority over a Pokemon that's of an already existing type combination? I'd imagine that if there's a theoretically "peak" to Pokemon's sustainability it'll probably be around that time.

Well, for the foreseeable future, I think GameFreak will manage to save a handful of unique combinations for a very long time. They can always slow down the pace as it suits them, since there are many unexplored possibilities with the combinations already in use. There are (very) many combinations currently only used by a single Pokémon/forme or evolution family, and with great potential for more unique or clever designs in the future. Take Surskit being the only Water/Bug, for instance (Actually Bug/Water, but whatever). Surely you could come up with a few more designs based on that typing alone? So-called elemental dragons are rare too, most pairings of the Dragon type are only in use by one or two evolution families, or (even more commonly) one-off Legendaries. This chart alone gives a handy breakdown of the most-used combinations, and the relative scarcity of most type combinations. Especially interesting is the Trivia section at the end, which I feel like quoting because it gets the point across so very well:

• The top five type combinations (approximately 4% of all combinations) account for nearly 30% of all Pokémon.
• 50% of all (131) used type combinations are accounted for by combinations that are unique to only one or two Pokémon (27 combinations unique to one and 39 unique to two).

With that in mind, it seems like we need not worry about type combinations being exhausted in the foreseeable future. Okay, some combinations lend themselves to less design creativity than others, but generally I'd say there are more than enough potential lying around in already-used types for many generations to come (there's a reason why I didn't gave any examples in this sentence - I couldn't come up with any type combos that would be restricted to only a few designs). Come ten more generations, and I think that unless GameFreak makes an effort to cover every type combo, or alters that mechanic somehow, I still think there would be unused combinations left - if only a handful.

No, I think other issues would present themselves long before they have exhausted type combinations, and even if/when they do they will still have lots of room for creativity.

 

[Mulan15262]

While IVs, EVs and Natures might be annoying, I'd say they have little to do in this topic, since they seem like a fairly sustainable concept. GameFreak could churn out another ten thousand Pokémon, and the system would work just like it does today. Still annoying, but their continuation wouldn't hinder the development process or become repetitive content-wise. Neither are GameFreak going to "run out of" them unlike, say, unique type combinations. So unless you can make a good case against those systems hurting the sustainability of Pokémon in the long run, I'd rather not have any further discussion on the subject(s) here. Go make great posts in the annoyances thread instead.

Except that, with new generations, come even more mechanics (IVs and natures are both unchangeable from when you get the pokemon, EVs and IVs are mostly hidden, abilities are hard to change, and even then not if you have or want the hidden ability, egg moves and prior-gen moves can't be obtained once bred or transferred, leveling up to level 100 takes time, some moves take a while to learn, i.e. tutor moves that need shards/BP) that are hard/impossible to change, hidden, and/or time consuming. If new features keep on being added in, the system will have too many variables to be easy to use. Removing IVs or making them changeable and making natures changeable would make the system easier to use once it gets to that point. Also, just using simulators isn't an answer as Nintendo likes people battling on the games themselves, not on simulators.

 

[noobcubed]

Here's a really evil way for GameFreak to exploit breeders' and soft-resetters' desire for perfect IVs - sell flawless-IV Pokemon as microtransactions.

 

[hypno28]

Here's a really evil way for GameFreak to exploit breeders' and soft-resetters' desire for perfect IVs - sell flawless-IV Pokemon as microtransactions.

I'd never buy another game.

 

[Climate Change]

While IVs, EVs and Natures might be annoying, I'd say they have little to do in this topic, since they seem like a fairly sustainable concept. GameFreak could churn out another ten thousand Pokémon, and the system would work just like it does today. Still annoying, but their continuation wouldn't hinder the development process or become repetitive content-wise. Neither are GameFreak going to "run out of" them unlike, say, unique type combinations. So unless you can make a good case against those systems hurting the sustainability of Pokémon in the long run, I'd rather not have any further discussion on the subject(s) here. Go make great posts in the annoyances thread instead.

Mulan hit it right on the head. If you could guarantee that there would be no new mechanics in the future, sure, it's sustainable. But simplification anywhere would help free up "complexity points" for future stuff. Also note it's not ENTIRELY hidden since the games will presumably always have NPCs and signposts and items that deal with this stuff. That being said, I'm willing to drop it for the purposes here.

Come ten more generations, and I think that unless GameFreak makes an effort to cover every type combo, or alters that mechanic somehow, I still think there would be unused combinations left - if only a handful.

Well, we've already used 133 out of 171 type combinations in 6 generations, so even though it's not a linear thing I'm not sure why you think they wouldn't have been filled out by generation 16.

Of course, if pokemon really does last until generation 16, I'm pretty sure it's inevitable that we get new types. Not every generation for sure, but on the subject of sustainability, I think they'll eventually want that design space. And while I know it's a tired topic, there really are some obvious options in Light and Sound (flavor-wise; they're not nearly as competitively necessary post-Fairy). This then leads to the sustainability-related question of: how many types is too many?

Another option to open up design space is to make primary vs secondary type matter. Either in a fundamental way (e.g., STAB for secondary type is only 1.3), or just for special cases (e.g., an attack or ability that ignores the opposing pokes secondary type). I don't know if Game Freak considers "order of typing doesn't matter" to be a sacred tenet of the game that's 100% unbendable (it'd be nice for us if they were a little more transparent in their decision making).

 

[Pikachu315111]

Another option to open up design space is to make primary vs secondary type matter. Either in a fundamental way (e.g., STAB for secondary type is only 1.3), or just for special cases (e.g., an attack or ability that ignores the opposing pokes secondary type). I don't know if Game Freak considers "order of typing doesn't matter" to be a sacred tenet of the game that's 100% unbendable (it'd be nice for us if they were a little more transparent in their decision making).

That's one thing I would like to see them explore. As of right now the only function that the primary type seems is for Pokemon who have multiple forms/Mega Evolutions. The primary type remains a "constant" while the secondary type changes (well, at least for Pokemon who are dual-type, single-type Normal-types seem to be able to change their primary type).

I always thought that maybe they could have the primary type give additional benefits to attacks with secondary effects while the secondary type gives additional benefits to status moves. And to be fair to solo-types, their STAB is increased from 1.5x to 2x (before anyone freaks out, this is just a suggestion I just came up with. My main point was to give noticeable differences to primary/secondary types and also give solo-types something to not leave them out).

 

[JES]

I'd never buy another game.

Yeah, that would just be wrong.

 

[lucariomaster2]

I've been lurking in this thread for awhile now, so I think it's time I give my input.

Pokemon has been around for 19 years now. Game Freak has done an admirable job of maintaining the series, so I feel that Pokemon will be around for a long time to come. That said, there are some things that I would like to talk about.

Increasing complexity: With the release of Gen VI, we have 719 Pokemon (721 if you count Hoopa and Volcanion). Not only that, each generation has added new moves, new abilities, and new mechanics. This can be seen most clearly with all the special Forme changes: we have Kyurem's DNA splicers, the Reveal Glass, Rotom's appliances, Genesect's Drives, and probably others that I have forgotten. Because each of these items has to be given out in every single game, it gets to the point where an entire town or city may be necessary to obtain all of them. Why is this a problem? It becomes a problem when we look at the significance of the special items in the generations that they were introduced. In BW2, the DNA splicers that change Kyurem's form are the centerpoint of the entire plot. They are first used by Ghetsis to try to take over Unova using Kyurem, and it is not until after you defeat Kyurem and foil Team Plasma do you finally get to wield their power yourself. In XY? Some random NPC just hands them to you if you show her Kyurem. No backstory, no explanation on how she got them in the first place, nothing. The drives and reveal glass are less significant, but they were still more relevant in BW/BW2 where they originated than in XY and ORAS, where they are literally handed to you by a random stranger. I believe that Game Freak will have to be more careful about having special requirements for Pokemon that change forms; it may improve the first game that incorporates them, but what about after that? Will the Red and Blue Orbs just be shoehorned into X2/Y2/Z/Gen VII like the DNA splicers?

I would like to return to the original point, that the Pokemon games are becoming more and more complex. Let's take a look at RBY: you have a very manageable 151 Pokemon to catch, and each Pokemon has a small movepool. Quite possibly the most 'radical' mechanic is Porygon, who can change its type with Conversion. Not only did each attack fulfill its own niche, but they were simple in flavour, which names such as Tackle, Thunderbolt, Fly, and Body Slam. Today, there are 609 moves, and many of them are much more sophisticated. Ally Switch is a prime example: "The user teleports using a strange power and switches place with an ally." This is obviously much more situational and specific than a move such as Fly. By no means is this a bad thing; on the contrary, it makes the games more diverse. But at the same time, I feel like GF is putting less and less effort into making moves unique: like Codraroll originally said, there are now 30 priority moves, and 7 never-miss moves. What I fear is that we will have attacks that are functionally identical, with the only differences being in flavour.

Furthermore, with more Pokemon being added each generation, the franchise's original motto of "Gotta catch 'em all!" becomes harder and harder to obtain. What was once possible with just a friend who has the opposite game to you now requires hours upon hours of searching on the GTS and grinding for EXP to fill the Dex slots. At the same time, though, it makes finally completing the National dex (as I did for the first time in X) so much more rewarding, because you have to put in more work the more Pokemon there are. Another benefit of having more Pokemon in existence is that each run-through of the game can be completely different, which in turn makes the games more replayable.

In all, although I believe the more complicated and sophisticated newer games are better, I also think that a balance needs to be found between too complicated and too simple. More importantly, Game Freak needs to stay on that balance once they find it.

Power Creep: Imagine that 12 years ago, around the time that the original Ruby and Sapphire were being released, telling Game Freak that one day they would make a Pokemon that had 105/180/100/180/100/115 stats, got Flying STAB but didn't have Flying's weaknesses, and had a 120BP Flying-type attack with almost no drawbacks. Or that they would someday create a Normal-type move that was almost as powerful as Hyper Beam, but had perfect accuracy and no drawbacks at all. You would probably be laughed out of the office. And yet, now, we have those things in Mega Rayquaza and Boomburst. From a marketing point of view, why they do this is entirely understandable: by making more powerful Pokemon in each successive game, they entice us fans to keep buying them, so they thus make more money. But there is a side effect to this, which is that Pokemon that were previously fan favourites end up getting left in the dust. This is why I think Mega Evolution was a genius move on Game Freak's part: they provide much needed buffs to has-been Pokemon such as Salamence and Lucario, while still keeping the Pokemon themselves relevant (Of course, they go too overboard and the Megas become broken and banned to Ubers, while the regular Pokemon end up still being left behind).


TL;DR: So! What ultimately needs to be done to sustain the Pokemon model for the longest time? I believe that the answer is this: Instead of adding lots of new Pokemon in each generation, Game Freak should just add a few, and then focus on making old Pokemon relevant again, whether it be with new typing, a new ability, movepool upgrades, a Mega Evolution, or even something as simple as a 10 point Speed increase.