Suspect SV AAA Suspect #12: Walking Wake

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:sv/walking wake:
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SuspectIce ScalesIce ScalesWalking WakeWalking WakeIce ScalesWalking WakeWalking Wake4-3 Walking Wake

WHY:
Following a 4-3 Council Vote, the Council has elected to suspect test Walking Wake!

Walking Wake has become one of the strongest special attackers in the metagame, with good speed, decent bulk, and sporting high-powered STAB moves in Primordial Sea-boosted Weather Ball, Hydro Pump, and Draco Meteor to threaten most Pokemon. With a Choice Specs and the move Knock off, it can remove key items like Assault Vest & Leftovers from defensive walls and dish out too much damage for neutral targets to handle. It gains access to powerful x1.5 boosting abilities such as Primordial Sea and Dragon's Maw to further augment its STAB attacks.

The high powered nature of its attacks leaves few forms of secure counterplay, as almost all offensive resists risk getting 2HKO'd such as Roaring Moon and offensive Primarina, or are susceptible to Draco Meteor. Most bulky neutral targets like Gholdengo and Zapdos are OHKO'd. Defensive answers such as Regenvest Manaphy and Empoleon risk losing their item and are susceptible to hazards, greatly reducing their hit taking capability. It can also opt to use Flip Turn to pivot and gain momentum, especially causing an issue for Blissey.
It is not too difficult to get in with its bulk, speed, Water / Dragon typing, fire immunity, and with the support of teammates.
Furthermore, Weather Ball circumvents traditional Water-type counterplay in Desolate Land, as they still have to withstand a powerful Fire-type attack– which only Iron Moth has the longevity and typing to do reliably. This has led to a rise in Water-Absorb Steel-type Pokemon such as Heatran, Skarmory, and Gholdengo, as traditional forms of counterplay are too prone to being worn down and/or losing outright to its strong attacks.


Walking Wake can also elect to run a Dragon's Maw set, dealing devastating draconic damage to Water resists and Dragon resists alike. Walking Wake is most commonly seen paired with other special attackers, as it can quickly wear down the few specially defensive walls in the way of its teammates and form strong volt-turn cores with physical attackers. It can even effectively wield a Choice Scarf set, trading some power in exchange for flipping the matchups vs faster revenge killers like Roaring Moon and Zamazenta.

However, Walking Wake is not without its flaws. Its common sets all rely on a choice item, and both of its STABs have an immunity leading to difficult mind games on what move to use. Teams also boast many sturdy resists to Water- and Dragon-type moves, often stacking multiple checks to it such as the popular Regenvest Manaphy + Scream Tail + Iron Moth core, where it can struggle to lock into the correct move multiple times in a row. Locking into the wrong move at the wrong time can severely setback progress made vs Regenerator users or give an opportunity for others to heal. It is fast, but still easily outsped and threatened by many top threats such as Roaring Moon, Scream Tail, Zamazenta, Latios, and Ogerpon. Walking Wake is also susceptible to hazard damage, as it neither runs Heavy-Duty Boots nor has reliable recovery. Primarina, Empoleon, and the aforementioned Water Absorb Steel-types are still usable counterplay without an item. Notably, Walking Wake has to choose between Primordial Sea and Dragon's Maw, leaving the other unboosted STAB attack option relatively weak and either suffering matchups into Water resists/immunities or Fairy types, and leading to it often not running coverage moves outside of its STABs.

HOW:
During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:
  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site
  • Create a new account (creation date no earlier than today, May 8) with "AAAWW "--for example, I could create one called "AAAWW Your Mom" to ladder with. Having the prefix at the beginning of your alt name is mandatory, AKA not in the middle (e.g. The AAAWW Man) and not at the end (e.g. The AAAWW).
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must meet the required GXE and games played threshold; it starts at 78% GXE at 25 games, down to 75% GXE at 40+ games.
  • Walking Wake will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.
  • The suspect test will go for two weeks and end on May 23 at 10:00pm GMT -5
  • When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Walking Wake should be banned.(Optional)
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)
With that all of that being said, it's suspect time! As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.
 
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Betticus IV

Going Nowhere on a Train
is a Tiering Contributor
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Name from Europa (Earth's Cry Heaven's Smile) - Santana

Fun time with these reqs. Idk, wake is a mon that I lean towards dnb but during this run it did feel a little annoying to me. I was using wabs ghold/tran for part of the run but whoever aaaww mother is running around with a specs maw/adapt set shredding through my team with 3 steels it made me question everything.


Despite that, I feel wake is not too crazy because a team should have consistent ways of dealing with dragon/water, whether it be immunities or stacking resistances. I understand this thing is able to shred even resistances but with its speed tier and limited availability to come in safely it feels like if it doesn't get the one or two turns it needs it falls flat (even though I said above I had the resistances and still got smacked I think it more had to do with me not fully building for it and my opps just playing better). I also think that water immunity abilities are undervalued, due to the fact that the 3 premiere regens are water, I find myself using it more to snipe those mons than wake itself. It having knock is big but it always feels like it can be played around/predicted, and a team should have meaningful ways of playing around/beating special mons even if the vest gets knocked off. I personally enjoy the more fast pace of the meta, but I understand this is preference and it would be interesting to see what fatter builds could come out of a possible wake ban since this thing is the #1 progress maker rn.

As for Ice Scales (blame UT for bringing it up): see my forum post, if a wake ban goes through I especially don't see a reason for it.

Teams I used:

:mew::corviknight::walking wake::heatran::gholdengo::great tusk:
:Great Tusk::Roaring Moon::Walking Wake::gholdengo::manaphy::corviknight:

Team 1 is not good because I used regen mew and refused to build around it well, team gets 6-0'd by hadron ghold and doesn't like moon (pivots forever on corv and tusk) but could def be made better. After losing a few games decided to switch it up. Team 2 don't have the best wake answers but that is moreso because I was being lazy in builder and find this team fun, still was able to beat wake teams with it so it is a matter of outplaying.

EDIT: Yea after playing a bit more and building for ompl this mon is silly. If the alternative is ice scales + wake I would rather take no wake in the meta.
 
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Im easily voting for ban here - think wake is byfar and away overtuned and unhealthy. Its very presence is what tips it over the edge for an ice scales unban and 2ac for me, as it epitomises the issue with dealing with special threats atm. You have one regenvest slot if you want to somewhat check special mons without losing momentum, as every other mon aside from ludicrous niches lose momentum, unless you have the perfect immunity. Its forcing a lot of water absorbs on random mons and even then that doesnt stop it from being valuable.

Basically the combo of insanely powerful stabs (the main one being immune to a desoland immunity), as well as knock (for the assault vest) AS WELL as a strong pivot move is already terrifying in a vaccuum. Then you add in the solid speed tier, with great natural defensive typing and bulk making it hard to revenge kill, paired with great defensive utility in its fire immunity and doule resistance to fire in the case of weather ball. Both choiced sets are extremely splashable on virtually every team and require active prep in the builder beyond what I have ever considered to be healthy for anything. It feels eerily similar to noivern which I spammed until it got banned for very comparable reasons.

Im also not following people's logic here when compared to other bans throughout aaa's history. Its not impossible to deal with, but requires so much tunneling that it leaves a lot of weak spots in your team, and i just dont see how thats healthy given how absurdly spammable this mon is. I just think with it banned, it will free up some very much needed defensive freedom in such a ludicrously offensive meta as we are in right now.

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Hera

Cute and genuine as ever
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someone recommended i use !randpoke fe for this run and i got dudunsparce. idk how this team kept winning but it did. dudunsparce was unaware and skarm was psea for most of the run so i could farm sample teams, then changed the abilities once i hit 1300. somehow, i still ran into multiple random soundproof grounds like tusk or ting.

wake is fine. very strong long term wincon but it needs to get so many turns right since both of its stabs have immunities and hazards put it on a timer. in practice it's not harder to just win faster than wake, especially considering 348 speed just barely misses out on all of our 110s (although if it was a tiny bit faster it would be easily broken), and even knock is a bigger commitment than most people think cause you can die or lose a lot of your health if you knock, say, their corvid. most good teams can run like deosland moth + spdef steel/fairy and position around wake long enough for it not to be an issue, and it's linear enough that if you're really scared vs it, then you can run a double immunity like wa scream or tran. i think throughout all the time i've played vs wake, i've only lost once when i had a good mu, and that was only cause it got 4 straight turns right. it's a pretty healthy influence on the meta and an easy dnb from me.
 
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:palafin-hero: :latios: :zarude: :zapdos: :corviknight: :iron treads: (click sprites for team)
By all accounts, Palafin should not work. The psuedo intellectual may claim mons such as Iron Moth, Dragonite, Latios, etc. etc. etc. exist however they fail to account for one crucial factor, Palafin got that dawg in em.
Rest of the team is more wack stuff but thats kinda my preferred stuff for suspect runs, regenvest zaza is neat. If there was ever going to be a time to use it, it would be now (now is not the time btw).
One loss was to Betticus IV haxing me with his tryhard team and ending the glorious palafin sweep smh smh

Uhh voting ban, for very obvious reasons that i feel arent being said as of now in this thread, i will definitely edit this post later with a proper paragraphs /make a new post in this thread as it is very late rn. Most people who have played very clearly knows what the vibes in the room are
 
Haven't gotten reqs yet, but figured I'd just make a post real quick about Wake while I keep grinding. Hopefully this sways some people to the ban side.

:walking-wake:
Holy shit, this Pokemon. It is genuinely laughable to me that people will see Walking Wake do 40% to Empoleon with a Specs Weather Ball and go "yes, I want that to be in the game, actually." It is Raging Bolt-esque in the way it simply kills whatever is in front of it outside of some very specific counters, except this time it has Knock Off. Let's just quickly go over Walking Wake's key traits, just to exemplify how absurdly broken it really is:
  • 109 speed, 125 special attack, and quite respectable bulk mean Wake is not at all lacking in stats in the slightest. It can reliably outspeed most things save for Scarf Moon or Meow with its own Scarf, or it can just kill you with Specs. It can reliably tank even a +1 Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed from full. It can easily take other strong priority moves, too, like Kingambit's Sucker Punch and Chien-Pao's Ice Shard. You effectively require either a Scarf Moon or two priority users to reliably revenge kill it with the Scarf set.
  • Its typing is just ridiculous. The only good Mon that resists both Dragon and Water is Empoleon, who's very easy to click Knock Off or Flip Turn into and cripple for the rest of the game, along with exploitable 8 PP Roosts. Plus, it's got very, very powerful STABs in Weather Ball (or SCALD for non-Primordial Sea sets) and Draco Meteor, so don't think any but the bulkiest targets can take a Specs neutral hit.
  • Its choice of ability is just plain stupid. Obviously, Primordial Sea is the best, giving base 100 perfectly accurate STAB that doesn't care about Desolate Land from otherwise good DesoLand users like Heatran that can't afford to run the ability because of Wake's stranglehold on the meta. If it doesn't want to run Primordial Sea, though, it's not particularly lacking in options. Dragon's Maw lets it click the Dragon button with incredible ease, Adaptability gives it a great boost to both STABs to keep its offensive pressure, even rare sets like Hadron Engine can be deadly when paired with a secondary cleaner (Surge Surfer Thundy-T is the first one that comes to mind).
  • Movepool. Movepool. The fucking movepool. If this thing could only click Weather Ball, Draco Meteor, or whatever other Water move, I think it'd be fine. Iron Moth and Manaphy could reliably check it, same with Empoleon, Primarina, etc. Unfortunately, every single one of those gets utterly demolished by this funny little move called Knock Off. This makes RegenVests a non-answer thanks to the ease they get Knocked and overwhelmed by Weather Ball. And it can also just pivot on you with Flip Turn if it wants to wait for a better opportunity to play Choose Your Own Sacrifice. Other underexplored options like Scald are also incredible, but I won't get too into that here.
To round this all out, let's look over the mons that are supposed to act as checks to Wake and see how they do:
:manaphy: While it does reliably take Weather Balls and Draco Meteors from the Specs set with its Assault Vest, it's the easiest Knock Off in the world, and afterwards it heavily struggles to take Wake's STABs with rocks up, even worse if it's paired with a spiker.
:empoleon: Takes 40% from Specs Weather Ball and heavily relies on its 8 Roosts and Leftovers to stay healthy over the course of a game. I think Sticky Hold is an underrated option but it's far from a reliable Wake check if it gets even slightly chipped.
:swampert: RegenVest neutral to Water that's insanely easy to Knock or Flip on. This mon fucking sucks btw why do people run it why do I run it.
:primarina: Admittedly, this isn't meant to be as much of a Wake check as it is a Moon check, but it is often a Wake switch-in for its teams with RegenVest. The physdef spread takes 56% from Specs Weather Ball with no AV.
:gholdengo: With Water Absorb, probably the best Wake check in the tier, since it can reliably spread paralysis and heal with Recover. 8 Recover PP does come up but it's not as bad as Empoleon's case. Still, the fact that Water Absorb Gholdengo exists is just ridiculous.
:heatran: Another Water Absorb Steel, and it doesn't even beat Wake reliably. Very, very easy to click Knock on, and can't threaten back outside of weak options like Earth Power.
:iron-moth: Heavily boots reliant and it doesn't exactly enjoy taking a Specs Draco. It can switch into Flip Turns but it's otherwise risky.
:blissey: Good check but it's a Blissey in generation 9 Almost Any Ability. Extinct species. Also takes a worrying amount from Naive rain-boosted Flip Turn if you want to run that nature.

This is just some of the checks. Other more niche sets like Water Absorb Scream Tail/Hatterene exist, but they aren't very common or very good imo. Basically, Wake's counterplay is incredibly reliant on it not clicking Knock Off, and often can't reasonably check it when they lose their item. This makes Wake the easiest ban vote of my life. Fuck Palkia. I'll get reqs soon, trust.
 

Slither Wing

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Rough start since I was lazy at first and didn't want to build a new team, but after enough losses I finally cooked up Dragon's Maw Latios and got reqs (Shoutout Geist goated album, listen if you like Metal/Metalcore :)
Team used for reqs: :latios: :great tusk: :manaphy: :scream tail: :kingambit: :pecharunt: I'm actually quite happy with this team since I first thought I was washed at building, but this turned out great, Static Tusk's cope for no Toxic Debris and is also really fucking annoying lol

I'm currently a little unsure as to what I want to vote; on one hand, Wake has been in the metagame for quite some time and while always being good, there hasn't been a lot of outrage as to calling it broken/wanting it banned, I feel like this either came recently or the discussions surrounding have been in places I'm not active in. Anyways, there are a lot of soft-checks to it such as RegenVest Manaphy, Primarina, WA Heatran, and Vessel/Bulletproof Empoleon, and a Speed stat of 109 isn't immensly high compared to other special wallbreaker such as Deoxys-S, Latios, Gengar, Thundurus-I (underrated mon btw).
On the other hand, it's very restraining in the builder if you're looking to build slower/balance-esque builds that don't always have that ability to pressure it as well, letting it switch in multiple times and click Knock Off a bunch of times before tearing through your team. It is also deceptively bulky, and does live a lot of revenge-killing attempts, and is with no doubt one of the most influencial mons in the tier.
I'm probably leaning towards Ban since I like it when building isn't as restrained, but it's definetly not unreasonable to vote do not ban in my opinion, as there are reasonable arguments from both sides, and we have managed with it so far. Gonna continue reading posts here though before I make my full decision, as I'm still not 100% amd my reasoning is most likely a bit flawed.
 
Tfw we're calling water absorb heatran and bulletproof empoleon soft checks. (Which they are they literally lose all the time in practice). It's pretty laughable the sheer amount the Mon centralizes and warps the builder. Other stuff like water absorb gholdengo/skarmory are also soft checks too since they get scarily close to dieing to 2 Draco's without being played the most passive and momentum sink way possible (which will result in a loss). And they better not have a set that boosts draco damage and be psea.
Even in practice when it's facing a lot of these things, flip turn and knock are enough to get value and are super free. Meme team yes but my reqs teams just could not beat the level of free that flip turn > moon uturn was. Water immunity is near mandatory on teams rn. Also another thing is most of these water immunity sets and mons kinda just suck otherwise? They saw 0 play before hand, even when manaphy was S+++ tier in the dlc1 metagame, and really do just feel bad to put on a team and use.

Yes the Mon is probably not gonna be tooo bad as long as you make sure every team from now on features the extremely rigid 3 Mon soft check core and/or simply a rly bad mon hard cteam slot (wabs steel, empoleon) all of which gets dismantled time and time again by good play + an actually decent offense team because you're not gonna be able to keep all your pokemon alive vs their other 5 esp when these mons provide little else and are momentum sinks/passive.
Like listen to yourself vros... we so easily just accepting the reality that these sets have to exist on every team and still can't even be called hard counters? Easy ban to open up some space in builder and in play.
(Not the nice clean post I wanted to make.might do that later still(?). Just wanted to put some words down rq)
 

Clas

pixibursting
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oh right i need to post reqs oops
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wake is stupid and this tier is horrible to build why are we relying on immunities to check pokemon now as if that isnt part of the reason that makes this tier hell to play. if i get more time ill make a proper post but Racool, Codename C.A.T, and DeepFriedMagikarp already did so

s/o racool for teams and my unwavering hate for this metagame for making me actually get this done
 
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Lana

imsofwo
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OMPL Champion

prolly voting ban, while wake feels very manageable in game, it restricts team building for me which I absolutely hate. I like having flexibility in the builder heading into ompl, now more than ever because of rising stars like thundurus-t, volc, and other special attacking bastards becoming a menace

teams used:
v1
v2 (gatekeeping regi evs on this, sorry not sorry)
 
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