Suspect SV AAA Suspect #14: Zamazenta

[Betticus IV]

​

Why:

Due to the survey results as well as an internal vote, the council has decided to suspect Zamazenta! Zamazenta was unbanned earlier this year, and quickly found its place in the meta as a strong, fast, and bulky breaker. However, due to the presence of Dragonite E-speed, it was limited mostly to all-out attacking sets with items such as Choice Band/Scarf/Boots/Life Orb. This in conjunction with the popular Prankster Pecharunt, Zamazenta was a strong but contained offensive threat. With Dnite now banned, Leftovers Scrappy Iron Defense Body Press sets have risen in popularity, with this set being able to beat multiple checks that banded could not break much easier. Pokemon such as Fluffy/Intim Corviknight, Great Tusk, Gholdengo have the match-up flipped on their heads and can become set-up fodder for Zamazenta to win the game. Zamazenta can also run coverage such as Heavy Slam or Stone Edge to beat other checks such as Scream Tail or Zapdos/Moltres respectively. RestoChesto sets have popped up to increase longevity and allow for more guaranteed set-up opportunities, as well as allowing it to stall out another check in Malignant Chain Pecharunt. Due to the limited number of options to check both Iron Defense + all-out attacking, many teams stack checks such as Scream Tail, Pecharunt, Fluffy, and/or bulky Zapdos/Moltres, leading to complaints of sameness in structures and Zamazenta warping building around it. This does not take into account Zamazenta being able to pick and choose what it can and cannot beat, meaning that it can easily tech for the one or two checks that it loses to with teammates.

However, Zamazenta is not without its flaws. Like any choiced breaker, its prediction reliance is stifled quite easily by the popular cores of Fluffy/Pecharunt, Scream Tail, and dark/rock/steel resists. Iron Defense sets have the issue of having to choose between coverage to beat Scream Tail or Zapdos/Moltres, meaning that a team with one or multiple of these is usually fine against IDBP sets. It also may simply load the wrong coverage, leading to IDBP sets feeling less consistent/more fish than all-out variants. Although Pecharunt can be stalled out of Malignant Chain, Night Shade has risen in usage to prevent this.

Due to these reasons, we have decided to open Zamazenta’s future in the tier to the community!

How:

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Almost Any Ability before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played Almost Any Ability before the test, full stop.)
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.

Double check that you're listed as a voter! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact KaenSoul, Giagantic, Isaiah or a member of staff. If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2850. The deadline for getting requirements will be Sunday, November 24th @ 11:59 GMT -5.

Voting:

Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once the time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account

A super-majority of 60% ban votes is required to ban Zamazenta from Almost Any Ability

 

[matte]

just qualled here are some teams:

spikestack concept

ungabunga ceru team:


DONT BAN ZAMA

 

[Betticus IV]

Done with reqs, this is the easiest ban vote ever. This should have been a quick ban tbh. As mentioned in the post this mon is warping building around it and not in a healthy way at all. You have to stack checks or you are just hoping you don't load into the IDBP that 6-0s or you run Night Shade Pech on every team. But we are gonna lose a strong fast bulky breaker! Ok. There will still be like 4 or 5 others to choose from that don't fish you into oblivion/are a bit more balanced. I also really dislike the notion of zama helping balance rmoon and chien, partial reasoning for its initial unban, which I think was poor reasoning then and is only promoting the offensive meta we currently have.


Tinted Ghold is broken, team loses to +1 volc and has a hard time against stall so it's meh.

(Chess after joining literally every game and doing nothing)

Name from ...Oops I Did It Again by Britney Spears

 

[GlalieGoesBoom]

ban bc of what betticus said and no other reasons

 

[cjw405]

I don't think zamazenta is too bad to deal with, leaning dnb but will wait to hear others opinions on it.

Team used:

 

[Isaiah]

You guys know you don't need to post proof of reqs, right...

 

[Hera]

it's tradition at this point, hard to uncondition people to do it. also it's fun to post whatever team you used, talk about the mon a bit, and get free likes.

 

[aiko's band]

Even though you are not required to post reqs I am NOT breaking tradition.

Team used:


basically a better version of tech mamo team showcased in aim's video

anyways onto : I find it ridiculous that I have to include 3 different checks on my team, one for each set. / Fluffy to pivot around SOR CB and . (or maybe that's just half-decent teambuilding idk) The opportunity cost to check is too high, in my opinion.

I don't like the fact that could pick and choose its counters if it really wanted too. Zama can put on Soundproof to wall both 's Boomburst and 's Parting Shot. Zamazenta can afford to drop speed (since its so damn fast) and put those evs in more bulk, making it slightly harder to kill with screens and substitute. The extra bulk goes a long way, trust me. I've seen people on ladder resort to otherwise garbage mons like Unaware and just to check it. Personally I'm voting BAN.

 

[Gimmicky]

fuck this guy and fuck volcarona too

 

[Chessking345]

Used this team, this ladder quality is not it.

TRACE TUSK, I threw this team together really fast so I don't think its good or anything the hazards are nonexistent there's no water resist etc but its good enough to get by ladder evidently. Trace Tusk + Zapdos is broken combo, many RegenMoons were farmed. The Moon also only needs 3 moves, I have not clicked the 4th move at all used to be Outrage.

I think I will vote DNB only because people seem to want this mon gone and I like seeing people in other metas suffer.
Ban Volcarona (QB) and Screens its so brainless (alternatively banning cat also works).
(I also can't actually get any opinion from purely laddering because like the only Zama users were people cheesing with Screens this is why you need to ban Screens to improve ladder quality)

 

[Siamato]

Voting Ban on Zama. Why?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2241881880-fmm7j2mattcpi7ewimuri5sz3ii6mdlpw

Joke aside, here are a few reasons cuz I don't feel writing an essay this time lol.

• Zama has counterplays but it's hard to find a consistent one bar Pecha that is not infallible either (Soundproof Sub). This shouldn't be a big issue if Zama wasn't able to just autowin if you lack the right counterplay. This is ofc exacerbated by the fact IronPress and SoR have different counterplays.
• Zama indeed lacks a lot of offensive counterplay due to how fast and bulky it is (it can withstand shots from Scarf Ghold, Meow or Roaring that are top Scarfers).
• Band SoR Zama almost requires Fluffy (or Pecha lol) to deal with it cuz things like Intimidate Corv are overwhelmed so easily. De facto, people have to choose in the builder if they either want to deal with Band SoR Zama or with Pao by using Corv. The fact Corv cannot answer both of them with a single set means you must layer the defensive counterplay with other slots leading to redundant structures due to Zama wrapping building around it.

I won't really say that Zama is broken but it seems to be a very unhealthy presence is the meta, both in terms of competitivess, being able to fish its way through IronPress sets but also in the builder due to how restrictive it is forcing multiple defensive slots. Moreover, at the difference with OU, Zama doesn't have a very healthy part at controlling and handling threats defensively here. So yeah people can say I'm voting ban for "comfort" but that's fine by me ; a mon being unhealthy for a meta is a sufficient reason to ban it if there's not many healthy aspects to balance the scale.

I heard a lot of complain about Roaring too but this one is much more tricky topic cuz Roaring does have a very healthy aspect at keeping things together with Scarf SoR, RegenVest and MGLO sets. Counterplay against it looks much more consistent to me and not particularly hard to put in a team. Roaring is just very good at what it does and that's the reason why it completely dominates the meta.

Also Volcarona is a little b**** that can be QB without any regret. I don't like much DeoS but, regarding results and usages, I can't say it's too big of a nuisance for the meta (yet).

 

[Gambit]

I got reqs, two losses were from dumb HO (Protosynthesis Speed Ceruledge and Galvanize Volcarona)
Team I used: Originally I had AV on Manaphy but noticed that I didn't really switch it in on the special side and that I tended to got knocked early on by Roaring Moon or Great Tusk so I went with Rocky Helmet later on.
Voting Ban for the reasons Betticus and Siamato stated above.

 

[Giagantic]

So I finally decided to get reqs on the alt I previously posted (I threw a bit so not gonna post) was to lazy to start a new one.

Ban Zamazenta, and Volcarona, and ban light clay, HO is truly silly, Weakness Policy could use a look I just spammed weakness policy to get reqs quick though Light Clay ban may help that. HO is just so powerful and fishy currently IMO, one wrong mistep and you could wind up with a +6 speed Ursaluna-bm, or fluffy Acro knock off rmoon, or iron crown, the list goes on and on and there are so many variants to each set, one running fluffy, the other running an immunity or weak armour or whatever that it makes answering difficult. No unaware mon can possibly check every single one of these threats.

Kinda sad that we have to rely on unhealthy strats like prank dbond pecha to circumvent some of this. I consider prank dbond itself to be kinda wonky with the lack of priority to overcome it and the counterplay being phase it, or status it, or stall it out (the latter rarely works).

Used this team: https://pokepast.es/ff187c7281deef46

 

[Atha]

I'm voting DNB on this one although it's a close call. The cheesy sets are pretty much as inconsistent as the other cheesy mons we have in the tier (so decent but not great). The Choice Band set is somewhat restricting in the builder but we have enough tools for it imo and I think we should/could just get used to a more restricted meta than in the previous gens.

 

[Glory]

RMT soon.

I am 100% voting Do Not Ban here. Big shocker, the biggest Zama fan wants it to stay in the meta! But I wholeheartedly believe that Zamazenta is not broken and banning it would hurt the meta in a way it might not recover from.

I think that the majority of outcry against Zamazenta is a knee-jerk reaction to the rise of IronPress sets in AAAPL and OMWC, a response that is too hasty as we have yet to allow counterplay to develop, and guess what? Consistent aswers have already started to pop up.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-804712?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-804872

In both of these games, the Zamazenta is one of the absolute best sets for the matchup, but the other team was able to answer them quite consistently because they built good teams with IronPress Zama in mind. Fluffy Landorus-I in general is a very good blanket check to Zama, but it's used very rarely (Lando in general is criminally underused) for no reason in particular. And as has been pointed out, Night Shade Pecharunt checks pretty much every Zama set at once.

Voting Ban on Zama. Why?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2241881880-fmm7j2mattcpi7ewimuri5sz3ii6mdlpw

Even if this is a joke, I feel like it is quite representative of what about IronPress Zama angers people: the fact that it heavily punishes the stale builds that too many players default to using. This team's egregious weakness to the single most common ironpress set could be improved drastically through a few changes like physdef vest Manaphy over Iron Hands (which does work and I would have a replay to show but may have forgotten to save it) or Scarf Latios over Gholdengo. These changes open up other weaknesses, but that's just mons, you have to make concessions to respond to every threat.

In all honesty, I do not think Scrappy IronPress Zamazenta is good, a sentiment that has only been reinforced through discussion with DeepFriedMagikarp and astralydia. I am entirely unsympathetic to arguments that hinge on the supposed fishy nature of this set to advocate for a ban.

Ban Zamazenta, and Volcarona, and ban light clay, HO is truly silly, Weakness Policy could use a look I just spammed weakness policy to get reqs quick though Light Clay ban may help that. HO is just so powerful and fishy currently IMO, one wrong mistep and you could wind up with a +6 speed Ursaluna-bm, or fluffy Acro knock off rmoon, or iron crown, the list goes on and on and there are so many variants to each set, one running fluffy, the other running an immunity or weak armour or whatever that it makes answering difficult. No unaware mon can possibly check every single one of these threats.

Kinda sad that we have to rely on unhealthy strats like prank dbond pecha to circumvent some of this. I consider prank dbond itself to be kinda wonky with the lack of priority to overcome it and the counterplay being phase it, or status it, or stall it out (the latter rarely works).

I wholeheartedly agree that screens is broken and have advocated for a Light Clay ban for a while now, but I truly think banning Zamazenta makes screens even worse to handle. Zama is one of the only Pokemon with the power and bulk to handle some of the sweepers through screens, and its own role on screens is inessential and can be replaced with a very solid analogue in Zamazenta-Crowned, which has many of its own benefits like dominating Scream Tail regardless of set and walling Pecharunt, not to mention Zama-H ban means that Zama-C doesn't need to worry about a certain Fighting-type that outspeeds it. Banning Zama certainly does not solve the issue with screens, potentially even exacerbating it (Moon being able to comfortably run SoR because there's no more Zama that can live +1 and kill through screens.)

If all of that isn't enough to convince you on this point, let me list out answers to IronPress Zama.

• consistent defensive checks regardless of set: Night Shade/Nasty Plot Pecharunt, Fluffy Bulk Up Great Tusk, Primarina, Fluffy Skarmory, Landorus-I, defensive Zapdos, Sinistcha
• shakier or more niche checks: offensive Zapdos, Moltres, Scream Tail, physdef Manaphy, SD Landorus-T, pretty much any unaware, IronPress Corviknight, mono-Malignant Pecha, Latios
• revenge killers: Scarf Latios, Scarf Scream Tail, Deoxys-S, Azelf (there's not that many but nor is there many good scarfers in the tier anyway.)

Now to address what I view to be the only set that I can understand arguments for being problematic.

I believe Choice Band Zamazenta to be the single best set in the metagame, and it's not even particularly close to me. Despite this, I still believe it to be a healthy presence for the meta. Checks to it can be somewhat limited but they are almost invariably good Pokemon that you should have no trouble fitting onto a team—you certainly aren't making yourself worse off in order to beat it.

• Band SoR Zama almost requires Fluffy (or Pecha lol) to deal with it cuz things like Intimidate Corv are overwhelmed so easily. De facto, people have to choose in the builder if they either want to deal with Band SoR Zama or with Pao by using Corv. The fact Corv cannot answer both of them with a single set means you must layer the defensive counterplay with other slots leading to redundant structures due to Zama wrapping building around it.

I have a few things to say addressing this. First of all, Fluffy is a very good ability outside of answering Zamazenta, which is just one of the roles it excels at. If anything, I see this statement as more of an indictment against Chien-Pao for being such a ridiculous breaker that bypasses Fluffy. Second, there are certainly ways to handle Zamazenta outside of Fluffy or Pecharunt, such as pairing RegenVest Iron Hands or Regen Great Tusk with Scream Tail, a Ghost-type, or any other particularly bulky fighting resist (here's a great example of Regen Tusk staving off Zama very well even after the Ghost-type died.) And third, there is nothing inherently unhealthy when it comes to picking which mons to check with a set, especially in AAA where we have a certain Steel/Ghost that can tech past the entire game. Just use another mon to answer Pao if you're intent on using Fluffy Corv, it's not like you're beholden to a single physical wall.

CB Zamazenta is very capable of muscling through its checks (barring Fluffy Pecharunt and the like) but it needs to work for it against a well-built team in a manner that mons like CB Moon, Ceruledge, and Specs Gholdengo do not. All of its moves have common, sturdy resists that can pivot into it to deny any progress. MGLO, Clear Amulet Howl, and whatever else can be answered pretty consistently by whatever checks CB too.

• Zama indeed lacks a lot of offensive counterplay due to how fast and bulky it is (it can withstand shots from Scarf Ghold, Meow or Roaring that are top Scarfers).

This is quite accurate, as it's easier to list the offensive threats that it doesn't check than it is to list the ones it does—Great Tusk, Deo-S, Latios, Tail Glow Manaphy, SD Landorus, and Slither Wing—but I think this isn't a bad thing because of how difficult it is to handle many of the threats in this metagame. Zamazenta is incredibly consistent at offensively checking pretty much anything because of its potent mix of bulk, speed, and power that allow it to stand in the way of the scariest breakers, often even being able to switch in because of how incredibly bulky it is.

I heard a lot of complain about Roaring too but this one is much more tricky topic cuz Roaring does have a very healthy aspect at keeping things together with Scarf SoR, RegenVest and MGLO sets. Counterplay against it looks much more consistent to me and not particularly hard to put in a team. Roaring is just very good at what it does and that's the reason why it completely dominates the meta.

Following my previous point directly, I think that any argument that can be made for Moon's defensive value outweighing its negative aspects also applies to Zamazenta. Zamazenta is one of the most consistent forms of counterplay to Roaring Moon and is by far the best offensive check to Chien-Pao; a massive deal when Pao can get its way through pretty much any defensive core. The list of mons it handles is expansive, and I believe it single-handedly makes various structures possible. Of course, the team I achieved my reqs with is an example of that, but this team by Atha also demonstrates this very well.

I also really dislike the notion of zama helping balance rmoon and chien, partial reasoning for its initial unban, which I think was poor reasoning then and is only promoting the offensive meta we currently have.

Ignoring that the same logic is used to preserve Roaring Moon in the tier, I do agree with the first part of this statement, however I also believe that tiering needs to be pragmatic, and judging by tiering history up until this point, I don't think it's very likely for what I believe to be the necessary bans following Zamazenta (Moon, Pao, Ceru, and potentially Ghold) are going to happen, leaving the tier in a worse state than before. As for promoting the offensive state of the meta (which isn't inherently a bad thing) I think that Zama's extreme anti-offense traits are a bigger hindrance for offense than for any balance team.

 

[UT]

You guys know you don't need to post proof of reqs, right...

how else am I supposed to farm likes?

yap

This is the longest post so I will also vote DNB

 

[Siamato]

View attachment 687597

RMT soon.

I am 100% voting Do Not Ban here. Big shocker, the biggest Zama fan wants it to stay in the meta! But I wholeheartedly believe that Zamazenta is not broken and banning it would hurt the meta in a way it might not recover from.

I think that the majority of outcry against Zamazenta is a knee-jerk reaction to the rise of IronPress sets in AAAPL and OMWC, a response that is too hasty as we have yet to allow counterplay to develop, and guess what? Consistent aswers have already started to pop up.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-804712?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-804872

In both of these games, the Zamazenta is one of the absolute best sets for the matchup, but the other team was able to answer them quite consistently because they built good teams with IronPress Zama in mind. Fluffy Landorus-I in general is a very good blanket check to Zama, but it's used very rarely (Lando in general is criminally underused) for no reason in particular. And as has been pointed out, Night Shade Pecharunt checks pretty much every Zama set at once.

Even if this is a joke, I feel like it is quite representative of what about IronPress Zama angers people: the fact that it heavily punishes the stale builds that too many players default to using. This team's egregious weakness to the single most common ironpress set could be improved drastically through a few changes like physdef vest Manaphy over Iron Hands (which does work and I would have a replay to show but may have forgotten to save it) or Scarf Latios over Gholdengo. These changes open up other weaknesses, but that's just mons, you have to make concessions to respond to every threat.

In all honesty, I do not think Scrappy IronPress Zamazenta is good, a sentiment that has only been reinforced through discussion with DeepFriedMagikarp and astralydia. I am entirely unsympathetic to arguments that hinge on the supposed fishy nature of this set to advocate for a ban.

I wholeheartedly agree that screens is broken and have advocated for a Light Clay ban for a while now, but I truly think banning Zamazenta makes screens even worse to handle. Zama is one of the only Pokemon with the power and bulk to handle some of the sweepers through screens, and its own role on screens is inessential and can be replaced with a very solid analogue in Zamazenta-Crowned, which has many of its own benefits like dominating Scream Tail regardless of set and walling Pecharunt, not to mention Zama-H ban means that Zama-C doesn't need to worry about a certain Fighting-type that outspeeds it. Banning Zama certainly does not solve the issue with screens, potentially even exacerbating it (Moon being able to comfortably run SoR because there's no more Zama that can live +1 and kill through screens.)

If all of that isn't enough to convince you on this point, let me list out answers to IronPress Zama.

• consistent defensive checks regardless of set: Night Shade/Nasty Plot Pecharunt, Fluffy Bulk Up Great Tusk, Primarina, Fluffy Skarmory, Landorus-I, defensive Zapdos, Sinistcha
• shakier or more niche checks: offensive Zapdos, Moltres, Scream Tail, physdef Manaphy, SD Landorus-T, pretty much any unaware, IronPress Corviknight, mono-Malignant Pecha, Latios
• revenge killers: Scarf Latios, Scarf Scream Tail, Deoxys-S, Azelf (there's not that many but nor is there many good scarfers in the tier anyway.)

Now to address what I view to be the only set that I can understand arguments for being problematic.

I believe Choice Band Zamazenta to be the single best set in the metagame, and it's not even particularly close to me. Despite this, I still believe it to be a healthy presence for the meta. Checks to it can be somewhat limited but they are almost invariably good Pokemon that you should have no trouble fitting onto a team—you certainly aren't making yourself worse off in order to beat it.

I have a few things to say addressing this. First of all, Fluffy is a very good ability outside of answering Zamazenta, which is just one of the roles it excels at. If anything, I see this statement as more of an indictment against Chien-Pao for being such a ridiculous breaker that bypasses Fluffy. Second, there are certainly ways to handle Zamazenta outside of Fluffy or Pecharunt, such as pairing RegenVest Iron Hands or Regen Great Tusk with Scream Tail, a Ghost-type, or any other particularly bulky fighting resist (here's a great example of Regen Tusk staving off Zama very well even after the Ghost-type died.) And third, there is nothing inherently unhealthy when it comes to picking which mons to check with a set, especially in AAA where we have a certain Steel/Ghost that can tech past the entire game. Just use another mon to answer Pao if you're intent on using Fluffy Corv, it's not like you're beholden to a single physical wall.

CB Zamazenta is very capable of muscling through its checks (barring Fluffy Pecharunt and the like) but it needs to work for it against a well-built team in a manner that mons like CB Moon, Ceruledge, and Specs Gholdengo do not. All of its moves have common, sturdy resists that can pivot into it to deny any progress. MGLO, Clear Amulet Howl, and whatever else can be answered pretty consistently by whatever checks CB too.

This is quite accurate, as it's easier to list the offensive threats that it doesn't check than it is to list the ones it does—Great Tusk, Deo-S, Latios, Tail Glow Manaphy, SD Landorus, and Slither Wing—but I think this isn't a bad thing because of how difficult it is to handle many of the threats in this metagame. Zamazenta is incredibly consistent at offensively checking pretty much anything because of its potent mix of bulk, speed, and power that allow it to stand in the way of the scariest breakers, often even being able to switch in because of how incredibly bulky it is.

Following my previous point directly, I think that any argument that can be made for Moon's defensive value outweighing its negative aspects also applies to Zamazenta. Zamazenta is one of the most consistent forms of counterplay to Roaring Moon and is by far the best offensive check to Chien-Pao; a massive deal when Pao can get its way through pretty much any defensive core. The list of mons it handles is expansive, and I believe it single-handedly makes various structures possible. Of course, the team I achieved my reqs with is an example of that, but this team by Atha also demonstrates this very well.

Ignoring that the same logic is used to preserve Roaring Moon in the tier, I do agree with the first part of this statement, however I also believe that tiering needs to be pragmatic, and judging by tiering history up until this point, I don't think it's very likely for what I believe to be the necessary bans following Zamazenta (Moon, Pao, Ceru, and potentially Ghold) are going to happen, leaving the tier in a worse state than before. As for promoting the offensive state of the meta (which isn't inherently a bad thing) I think that Zama's extreme anti-offense traits are a bigger hindrance for offense than for any balance team.

First of all, I'd like to say that this is a very good post! A pleasure to read some good arguments and seeing such a deep analysis! I'm not a closed-minded person, so I let myself think more about it.

A few things then:

About those replays you posted, I wonder what it demonstrates, Zama being still very scary even though you have theoretical good answers or that Zama is forcing to run weird mon like Fluffy LandoI with Taunt. And by calling it "weird", I'm not denying that Fluffy LandoI is an interesting mon to try and that it's definitely underated. It's just that I think that Gliscor is pretty much better considering it has a much deeper movepool including excellent moves like Spikes, Tspikes, Knock Off or Toxic (while also having rocks and Taunt ofc). Better? Well, not exactly for a reason in particular called "Zamazenta". Fluffy Gliscor (without Taunt) is a setup fodder for Zamazenta while Lando can manage thanks to Earth Power. So we're constrained in running a worst mon just because it has a MU in which it's better, differentiating between a loss or a win.

Consistent aswers have already started to pop up.

About counterplay, if anything, again, I think using Night Shade on Pecha is quite relevant that Zama may be unhealthy, forcing to run a move that is just very often outclassed by Malignant Chain to consistently deal with it. Nasty Plot is so rare I don't even want to talk about it like it's a relevant thing to take into account while arguing. Both Skarmory and Sinistcha are not so common mon cuz their respective playstyles aren't mainstream, they fit more into "niche" options (where LandoI should also be considering the current meta pictured by stats). Fluffy BU Tusk is an unset to me but one can disagree ig.
So yeah, most of the time you have to rely on a "shakier" one that can fail to answer one set or another unless you layered quite a lot the counterplay (Scarf Latios + Manaphy + SD Lando for instance...). That is definitely not an issue by itself tbh. We do that a lot and I'll call a man crazy or bad if they have only a single way to deal with Roaring Moon in a team! Now the issue is that, lacking the good counterplay can just make you lose the game without much to do that is, by essence, not competitive at all.

This team's egregious weakness to the single most common ironpress set could be improved drastically through a few changes like physdef vest Manaphy over Iron Hands (which does work and I would have a replay to show but may have forgotten to save it) or Scarf Latios over Gholdengo. These changes open up other weaknesses, but that's just mons, you have to make concessions to respond to every threat.

This team is inherently weak to Zama yeah. The proof is that I run defensive Moltres just to be able to not autolose the moment they predict Ghold and remove my immunity to Band SoR CC. Replacing Hands for Manaphy doesn't improve a lot the Zama's MU tbh but makes the Roaring and Elec threats one way worst. Replacing Scarf Ghold by Latios is also not an option cuz the Icicle Crash resist is needed to get an out against Pao. But at this point, like you said yourself, it's a matter of concession cuz we can't cover everything while trying to run BO/balanded teams. Now, there's still a difference between having a bad MU that you can outplay and an autolose MU. But enough talking about my team, like I said, it was mostly a joke to introduce my post lol.

In all honesty, I do not think Scrappy IronPress Zamazenta is good, a sentiment that has only been reinforced through discussion with @DeepFriedMagikarp and @astralydia. I am entirely unsympathetic to arguments that hinge on the supposed fishy nature of this set to advocate for a ban.

I don't think IronPress Scrappy Zama is good either. It's mostly a fish relying on having the exact right set being able to autowin cuz otherwise it's not going to do much. This inconsistency makes Zama quite unhealthy because, on one hand you don't really want to take it into account cuz that's an inconsistent fish but on the other hand, if you don't, you'll just be at risk of autolosing a game. This polarization is what makes Zama unhealthy for the meta to me, not broken.

I truly think banning Zamazenta makes screens even worse to handle. Zama is one of the only Pokemon with the power and bulk to handle some of the sweepers through screens

I do agree with this part. Nothing to add.

I believe Choice Band Zamazenta to be the single best set in the metagame, and it's not even particularly close to me. Despite this, I still believe it to be a healthy presence for the meta. Checks to it can be somewhat limited but they are almost invariably good Pokemon that you should have no trouble fitting onto a team—you certainly aren't making yourself worse off in order to beat it.

Agree, SoR Band Zama is by far more consistent than IronPress sets. Same applies for MGLO sets or non-locked SoR sets to a lesser degree. Now I don't agree much on the fact that "you aren't making yourself worse off in order to beat it".

First of all, Fluffy is a very good ability outside of answering Zamazenta, which is just one of the roles it excels at. If anything, I see this statement as more of an indictment against Chien-Pao for being such a ridiculous breaker that bypasses Fluffy.

Yes, Fluffy is a very good ability on paper, no doubt about that. Now in practise, what runs Fluffy? Corv and Tusk mainly. We can argue Skarm and Lando but none of them is truly relevant in the current meta in which we're gauging the dog. Both Corv and Tusk are very good mon, even though people like atha will disagree telling us that Corv sucks. Now, if we don't use much Fluffy that's also cuz we don't need to. Chien Pao bypasses Fluffy like you said, Roaring doesn't hit hard enough (bar Band ig) to mandate Fluffy (Intimidate is fine), Ceru bypasses Fluffy, Meow bypasses Fluffy, Cind blows Fluffy, Ogerpons bypasses Fuffy, etc. So yeah, in practise, Fluffy is not that good. I'd go too far as to say that Fluffy is mostly used to answer SoR Band Zama but not much cuz otherwise Intimidate is often better and more consistent to cover a wider range of things. That's an issue of Close Combat being a 120 BP moves backed up by SoR and Choice Band making it too much for Intimidate to properly handle.
So, it is Chien Pao that is unhealthy forcing to run Intimidate that is an ability also working against Ogerpons, Cind, Ceru, etc or Zama (+ offensive Tusk and Boulder let's say?) that is unhealthy for forcing Fluffy? Good question isn't it?
The game showed with Regen Tusk isn't particularly relevant to me cuz Regen Tusk is quite rare (Trace Tusk moment?!) and lydia just had an insane counterplay to SoR Band Zama with both Regen Tusk midground + Ghold + Cress.

often even being able to switch in because of how incredibly bulky it is

Again, it can do it thanks to its natural exceptionnal bulk but rather not to. Most of the time, if I enter Zama on a strong hit it's cuz I don't have the choice anymore. Zama's defensive value is not so relevant with respect to what it can be in OU for instance. It does have a defensive value by virtue of offensively checking things but I will disagree with those who say its ability to "take a hit" is an healthy part, outside from offering sometimes an out against HO that are an issue by themselves by that's a different story. If anything Zama's bulk make it probably more unhealthy cuz it restricts even more again the offensive counterplay. You need DeoS or a Scarfer able to kill it, Latios, Azelf, Stail that's it and none of them are known for being top mons in the current meta bar Stail maybe.

Zamazenta is one of the most consistent forms of counterplay to Roaring Moon

Talked about it with atha but I can't agree much. Zama is an offensive counterplay to Roaring like it's an offensive counterplay to Pao and many things but it happens so rarely that you're going to switch Zama into Roaring. Either cuz you run Band SoR and you def don't want to lose your Band unless you really don't have the choice either cuz you run IronPress and you need Lefto to work. Roaring doesn't lack defensive counterplay and I won't call Zama a relevant one at all.
atha's team you're showing is an HO that, in essence, has trouble to answer Roaring defensively so yeah, in this kind of team, Zama is a defensive counterplay but really an emergency one cuz you don't have the choice lol. Outside from those structures Zama will never be more than an emergency defensive switch-in to Roaring to me.

 

[Betticus IV]

Good post! Siamoto also describes things very well in his response but I wanted to touch on my section that was quoted.

Ignoring that the same logic is used to preserve Roaring Moon in the tier, I do agree with the first part of this statement, however I also believe that tiering needs to be pragmatic, and judging by tiering history up until this point, I don't think it's very likely for what I believe to be the necessary bans following Zamazenta (Moon, Pao, Ceru, and potentially Ghold) are going to happen, leaving the tier in a worse state than before. As for promoting the offensive state of the meta (which isn't inherently a bad thing) I think that Zama's extreme anti-offense traits are a bigger hindrance for offense than for any balance team

I think this mostly stems from Dragonite ban more than anything else, and we are directly seeing the ramifications this is having on the meta right now. People wanted to get rid of the mon that kept all of these borderline Pokemon in check by virtue of +2 espeed, I think thats fine, but there will have to shake-ups on the offensive mons. We are directly seeing the cascading affect this is having on the tier. Dragonite is gone so now the fastest strongest guy in the meta is too overbearing. If Zama is gone, then this most likely will happen with Pao too, if that happens, so be it. I also think its disingenuous to say AAA council wouldn't have tiering action on Pao or Ceru, as these mons have consistently come up in our discussions in councilcord, especially with the Zamazenta suspect. If they do become too overbearing and/or there is community outcry, it's hard to see why they wouldn't be examined. While I understand my statement applies to Roaring Moon, it connects more with what Siamoto was saying, as I have been one of the most vocal proponents of getting rid of rmoon since OMPL. Rmoon is a bit different because it is a bit higher on the survey results and does offer quite a bit more defensive utility than the other 3 mons listed, so it is by nature going to be a bit more contentious, especially since it is the #1 progress maker in the tier. Though if general opinion shifts it is always an option to be looked at.

Also I agree completely w what Siamoto says about Zama in relation to rmoon and chien.

Talked about it with atha but I can't agree much. Zama is an offensive counterplay to Roaring like it's an offensive counterplay to Pao and many things but it happens so rarely that you're going to switch Zama into Roaring. Either cuz you run Band SoR and you def don't want to lose your Band unless you really don't have the choice either cuz you run IronPress and you need Lefto to work. Roaring doesn't lack defensive counterplay and I won't call Zama a relevant one at all.
atha's team you're showing is an HO that, in essence, has trouble to answer Roaring defensively so yeah, in this kind of team, Zama is a defensive counterplay but really an emergency one cuz you don't have the choice lol. Outside from those structures Zama will never be more than an emergency defensive switch-in to Roaring to me.

I think Zama is an extremely huge hinderance to balance, as if you want to build a competent balance team, you need to pack answers for both banded and IDBP, this leaves few viable options and creates the stacking of checks seen on many balance teams such as bulky zap, scream tail, night shade pech (something that isn't too amazing, I think you'd rather want malig, but zama forces this option). If this isn't done, I'm sorry but you are just forfeiting the mu in builder and hoping you don't run into a competent Zama user. Zama, along with the other threats in this tier (but mainly zama rn), are creating extremely linear and limiting factors in the builder for bulkier/balance teams, and while a more offensive meta isn't inherently a bad thing, if you want to build a different archetype it is extremely boring and warped around Zama. Sure offense hates this mon more, but offense hates a lot of things, and there are many mons on offense/HO that can easily muscle past zama if they get the plays right, but that is kind of the whole point of that play style, higher risk, higher reward.

This is currently the least experimental/fun the meta has ever felt in my opinion, and while I do blame the Dragonite ban for this, I think working in the new confines of the meta means that we will have to gut some of the offensive threats that dnite allowed to be free. The first step would be addressing Zamazenta.

 

[Atha]

Not sure what yall use night shade Pecharunt for, except for pp in fat teams maybe ? Just a little spa investment to break sub and you beat any Zama set consistently. Def EVs that you won’t really need anyway

 

[Osake]

First of all, I'd like to say that this is a very good post! A pleasure to read some good arguments and seeing such a deep analysis! I'm not a closed-minded person, so I let myself think more about it.

A few things then:

About those replays you posted, I wonder what it demonstrates, Zama being still very scary even though you have theoretical good answers or that Zama is forcing to run weird mon like Fluffy LandoI with Taunt. And by calling it "weird", I'm not denying that Fluffy LandoI is an interesting mon to try and that it's definitely underated. It's just that I think that Gliscor is pretty much better considering it has a much deeper movepool including excellent moves like Spikes, Tspikes, Knock Off or Toxic (while also having rocks and Taunt ofc). Better? Well, not exactly for a reason in particular called "Zamazenta". Fluffy Gliscor (without Taunt) is a setup fodder for Zamazenta while Lando can manage thanks to Earth Power. So we're constrained in running a worst mon just because it has a MU in which it's better, differentiating between a loss or a win.



About counterplay, if anything, again, I think using Night Shade on Pecha is quite relevant that Zama may be unhealthy, forcing to run a move that is just very often outclassed by Malignant Chain to consistently deal with it. Nasty Plot is so rare I don't even want to talk about it like it's a relevant thing to take into account while arguing. Both Skarmory and Sinistcha are not so common mon cuz their respective playstyles aren't mainstream, they fit more into "niche" options (where LandoI should also be considering the current meta pictured by stats). Fluffy BU Tusk is an unset to me but one can disagree ig.
So yeah, most of the time you have to rely on a "shakier" one that can fail to answer one set or another unless you layered quite a lot the counterplay (Scarf Latios + Manaphy + SD Lando for instance...). That is definitely not an issue by itself tbh. We do that a lot and I'll call a man crazy or bad if they have only a single way to deal with Roaring Moon in a team! Now the issue is that, lacking the good counterplay can just make you lose the game without much to do that is, by essence, not competitive at all.



This team is inherently weak to Zama yeah. The proof is that I run defensive Moltres just to be able to not autolose the moment they predict Ghold and remove my immunity to Band SoR CC. Replacing Hands for Manaphy doesn't improve a lot the Zama's MU tbh but makes the Roaring and Elec threats one way worst. Replacing Scarf Ghold by Latios is also not an option cuz the Icicle Crash resist is needed to get an out against Pao. But at this point, like you said yourself, it's a matter of concession cuz we can't cover everything while trying to run BO/balanded teams. Now, there's still a difference between having a bad MU that you can outplay and an autolose MU. But enough talking about my team, like I said, it was mostly a joke to introduce my post lol.



I don't think IronPress Scrappy Zama is good either. It's mostly a fish relying on having the exact right set being able to autowin cuz otherwise it's not going to do much. This inconsistency makes Zama quite unhealthy because, on one hand you don't really want to take it into account cuz that's an inconsistent fish but on the other hand, if you don't, you'll just be at risk of autolosing a game. This polarization is what makes Zama unhealthy for the meta to me, not broken.


I do agree with this part. Nothing to add.


Agree, SoR Band Zama is by far more consistent than IronPress sets. Same applies for MGLO sets or non-locked SoR sets to a lesser degree. Now I don't agree much on the fact that "you aren't making yourself worse off in order to beat it".

Yes, Fluffy is a very good ability on paper, no doubt about that. Now in practise, what runs Fluffy? Corv and Tusk mainly. We can argue Skarm and Lando but none of them is truly relevant in the current meta in which we're gauging the dog. Both Corv and Tusk are very good mon, even though people like atha will disagree telling us that Corv sucks. Now, if we don't use much Fluffy that's also cuz we don't need to. Chien Pao bypasses Fluffy like you said, Roaring doesn't hit hard enough (bar Band ig) to mandate Fluffy (Intimidate is fine), Ceru bypasses Fluffy, Meow bypasses Fluffy, Cind blows Fluffy, Ogerpons bypasses Fuffy, etc. So yeah, in practise, Fluffy is not that good. I'd go too far as to say that Fluffy is mostly used to answer SoR Band Zama but not much cuz otherwise Intimidate is often better and more consistent to cover a wider range of things. That's an issue of Close Combat being a 120 BP moves backed up by SoR and Choice Band making it too much for Intimidate to properly handle.
So, it is Chien Pao that is unhealthy forcing to run Intimidate that is an ability also working against Ogerpons, Cind, Ceru, etc or Zama (+ offensive Tusk and Boulder let's say?) that is unhealthy for forcing Fluffy? Good question isn't it?
The game showed with Regen Tusk isn't particularly relevant to me cuz Regen Tusk is quite rare (Trace Tusk moment?!) and lydia just had an insane counterplay to SoR Band Zama with both Regen Tusk midground + Ghold + Cress.


Again, it can do it thanks to its natural exceptionnal bulk but rather not to. Most of the time, if I enter Zama on a strong hit it's cuz I don't have the choice anymore. Zama's defensive value is not so relevant with respect to what it can be in OU for instance. It does have a defensive value by virtue of offensively checking things but I will disagree with those who say its ability to "take a hit" is an healthy part, outside from offering sometimes an out against HO that are an issue by themselves by that's a different story. If anything Zama's bulk make it probably more unhealthy cuz it restricts even more again the offensive counterplay. You need DeoS or a Scarfer able to kill it, Latios, Azelf, Stail that's it and none of them are known for being top mons in the current meta bar Stail maybe.


Talked about it with atha but I can't agree much. Zama is an offensive counterplay to Roaring like it's an offensive counterplay to Pao and many things but it happens so rarely that you're going to switch Zama into Roaring. Either cuz you run Band SoR and you def don't want to lose your Band unless you really don't have the choice either cuz you run IronPress and you need Lefto to work. Roaring doesn't lack defensive counterplay and I won't call Zama a relevant one at all.
atha's team you're showing is an HO that, in essence, has trouble to answer Roaring defensively so yeah, in this kind of team, Zama is a defensive counterplay but really an emergency one cuz you don't have the choice lol. Outside from those structures Zama will never be more than an emergency defensive switch-in to Roaring to me.

bro aren't you retired or something, you already (unfairly) banned Dragonite, let the kids have fun in peace and go back to the retirement home
also zama not broken but atha sucks so I'll vote ban

 

[Nultiprise]

I like doggo so dont ban doggo

 

[Ren]

e: voting ban btw i actually used the mon it's so absurdly broken LMAOO it + deos carried me through the run

 

[BrainDamageHaver]

ban

 

[shadowpea]

got reqs twice for funsies (and cause i wanna do it with my own teams a second time)

Spoiler

https://pokepast.es/80bebb9213c3c368 stolen from ghostlike's teamdump
https://pokepast.es/a21d6a2130b0a760 specs zelf is kinda fraud but does have its moments especially ifwhen you lure their rm with colbur gleam ghold which was stolen from someone idr
https://pokepast.es/496ff3af64755dea landoi is pretty awesome for screwing with volc/imoth/shocks. spikes hearthflame is so cool just dont run into wbb corv and you get free spikes and knocks and damage. stail can actually wishpass it vs a lot of things lol (rvs ghold treads etc).
also regenvest iron hands is so silly it can just, trade damage with every offensive mon ever and never gets ohkoed

kinda split on zama its annoying to account for but it also can do nothing awfully often but i also run way too much screamtail so lol.

 

[drizzle]

heard we have to post reqs, weird with this new system but im game

not my proudest climb but ig thats what happens when you bring ho, this zama fella feels pretty broken