Other Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Dragapult]

Someone made an interesting comment that I liked; While you can manage your sleeps against something as Amoongus by predicting the spores and making it go to the least useful slot you can't do the same thing with Dire Claw, its just a game of utter chance and Sneasler is such a strong Pokemon with decent dual stab typings that if you only have one decent check to it and you switch it in to a sleep thats likely going to be game changing. Overall, whether the move or Pokemon is utterly broken or not, its simply uncompetitive in my opinion and should be removed.

I said this, and this is where mushamu 's argument falls apart for me: your opponent gets no agency over who actually goes to sleep whereas Breloom and Amoonguss provide you this opportunity as a concession when you see them at preview.

You can and probably should play around Sneasler the way you'd play around a Spore user, but in reality what Sneasler means is that you can't switch your most obvious check in (say for non thought-out example, Tusk) unless it is outright immune to Dire Claw, which most types simply don't have. And suppose you actually do have to throw something in front of Sneasler? What happens if the mon wants gets parad and Sneasler still has the Sleep chance on a successive Dire Claw on a new mon? On paper the perfect check to this mon is Pex, and yet the vast majority of instances in which I've seen Pex out on Sneasler simply leads to the Sneasler player (usually Fighting) fishing for para/sleep to guarantee progress in a situation where they realistically should have no potential to do so.

Every time Sneasler is present in a game it creates a roulette that quite frankly is outside the scope of competitive play. It's pretty obvious and I don't think it's reasonable to at all to ask players to just concede to the chance that Sneasler blows up their gameplan due to factors outside their control even if they do play optimally.

 

[Rebelpyroflame]

I said this, and this is where mushamu 's argument falls apart for me: your opponent gets no agency over who actually goes to sleep whereas Breloom and Amoonguss provide you this opportunity as a concession when you see them at preview.

You can and probably should play around Sneasler the way you'd play around a Spore user, but in reality what Sneasler means is that you can't switch your most obvious check in (say for non thought-out example, Tusk) unless it is outright immune to Dire Claw, which most types simply don't have. And suppose you actually do have to throw something in front of Sneasler? What happens if the mon wants gets parad and Sneasler still has the Sleep chance on a successive Dire Claw on a new mon? On paper the perfect check to this mon is Pex, and yet the vast majority of instances in which I've seen Pex out on Sneasler simply leads to the Sneasler player (usually Fighting) fishing for para/sleep to guarantee progress in a situation where they realistically should have no potential to do so.

Every time Sneasler is present in a game it creates a roulette that quite frankly is outside the scope of competitive play. It's pretty obvious and I don't think it's reasonable to at all to ask players to just concede to the chance that Sneasler blows up their gameplan due to factors outside their control even if they do play optimally.

Odd question, but can I see those replays. I'm not questioning cha, I just really want to watch some matches with a good poison trainer. Most of the one's I've been watching have been disappointing.

Side note, is there a good way of watching matches aside from picking random ones?

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Odd question, but can I see those replays. I'm not questioning cha, I just really want to watch some matches with a good poison trainer. Most of the one's I've been watching have been disappointing.

Side note, is there a good way of watching matches aside from picking random ones?

Most big tours, like BLT, World Cup, MPL, etc have spreadsheets that show replays for all matches. There's one for the home welcome tour ken has been making as well you could probs find on the week 1 thread here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/welcome-home-round-1.3722471/#post-9653068

For watching matches right now, it is MLT season so for the next week you'll see links to matches pop up in mono chat you can click on for people trying to qualify. Those'll generally be upper ladder battles. For post home the next big tours really are MLT and MPL, I think MLT bracket is in a week and MPL starts in 2 weeks or so, so I'd check those matches when the tour starts. Ladders usually just where people test stuff so MPL will generally have alot more quality matches.

I'd recommend looking at tour replays first really, but otherwise I've seen Shrek 5 and konjiki2525 using poison in upper ladder so their replays should have alot of poison matches if you want a frame of reference.

 

[Elvira]

I don't think Sneasler has any place in a competitive metagame. A 50% chance to status stacked to 65% when you include poison touch is, in my eyes, just ridiculous. I don't have replays bc unfortunately I do not tend to save replays but I've definitely seen it pull some games out of its ass by getting like a sleep into a para and just completely crippling the other team within two turns. Whether or not it has checks(of course it does, its a poison move and one steel type can negate the move itself and stuff like corv/ghold can take CC's ), I don't think it changes the fact that the move is simply uncompetitve and can easily "render more skillfull play irrelevant." In general due to its great speed and attack just one sleep can set you up for a Swords Dance and then I think Sneasler can run through a good portion of the meta. 16.67 is not negligible and a 50% chance for another status ensures that your not losing out on a ton if you don't happen to get the sleep. Someone made an interesting comment that I liked; While you can manage your sleeps against something as Amoongus by predicting the spores and making it go to the least useful slot you can't do the same thing with Dire Claw, its just a game of utter chance and Sneasler is such a strong Pokemon with decent dual stab typings that if you only have one decent check to it and you switch it in to a sleep thats likely going to be game changing. Overall, whether the move or Pokemon is utterly broken or not, its simply uncompetitive in my opinion and should be removed.

I honestly agree with this. I've seen multiple new users on ladder ELO of 1000 instantly within I will only assume 4 hours of ladder gameplay after creating their alts make it to 1600 with just abusing poison touch dire claw, or even unburden sets. Even once ran into power herb dig Sneasler as if Steel doesn't already have a terrible time trying to come up with ways of checking 1 mon out of 6 fighting types. End games are usually ending with the sneasler just clicking spam CC and abusing its busted atk stat. I think that this needs to be addressed as soon as the Urshifu ban is implemented because if ELO 1000 - 1400 is that easy with just 1 mon then it's just as busted if not a tad more than Urshifu dark.

 

[Giyu]

I honestly agree with this. I've seen multiple new users on ladder ELO of 1000 instantly within I will only assume 4 hours of ladder gameplay after creating their alts make it to 1600 with just abusing poison touch dire claw, or even unburden sets. Even once ran into power herb dig Sneasler as if Steel doesn't already have a terrible time trying to come up with ways of checking 1 mon out of 6 fighting types. End games are usually ending with the sneasler just clicking spam CC and abusing its busted atk stat. I think that this needs to be addressed as soon as the Urshifu ban is implemented because if ELO 1000 - 1400 is that easy with just 1 mon then it's just as busted if not a tad more than Urshifu dark.

You won't find good players and optimized teams untill about 1500s~ so saying it destroys in lower ELOs isn't really going to be a driving reason for a ban, especially since you're not sharing replays to make your point and actually show that Sneasler is as broken as you say it is.

EDIT: As for Power Herb + Dig, you have Air Balloon Gholdengo and Corviknight.

 

[Simon Science]

Okay, I would like to make a defense of Sneasler as best as I can.

Issue 1: Dire Claw
Dire Claw is somewhat of a problematic move, but I think its too early to say if this alone is enough to ban Sneasler. First, the chance to poison is somewhat irrelevant, because while it is still a negative status regular poison is arguably the least problematic status. There is also a case to be made that being poisoned is a small benefit because if you are poisoned, you cannot be statused by anything else. this leaves 16.6%ish percent chance to paralyze and 16.6% chance to sleep. Which like, while somewhat high, dosent seem that bad. 16.6% ish chance to sleep is only 6.6% ish more chance to get an ice beam freeze or sleep from Meloetta's relic song. And for paralysis, well there has allways been discharge. Multiple random statuses from a move is also not unprecedented, see Tri-Attack.

Plus, while we are here, the move hypnosis exists, which nothing uses because its bad. Sure it dosent do damage, but the same principle definetly applies- you could totally run hypnosis on Iron Valliant and have a 60% chance to disable an enemy pokemon for a few turns. Sure it does not deal damage, but hey, you cant even switch in a steel type to stop it.

Like I get it, dire claw is a source of RNG, and its a small confluence of things like tri-attack's random status but cranked up a little, but these things have not been problematic before. Heck, in previous generations, what about serene grace pokemon, especially those that were popular in past gens, like Jirachi or Togekiss? What makes dire claw different? Why is this move specifically a problem compared to past moves which are causes of RNG?


Issue 2: Strength
Look, Sneasler is really strong, no denying that. But I think there is an important comparison to Chien-Pao to make here.
For the sake of comparison, lets compare both pokemon's with 252 attack jolly nature, using their strongest reliable STAB move against a max HP max DEF Eelektross:
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 145-172 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'll be honest, before running the calcs, I was convinced Chien-Pao would deal more Damage. But Like, this is essentially the only thing Sneasler has over Chien-Pao, exept that sneasler also gets U-turn (which while good, isint game breaking). And Close-Combat is a move that has drawbacks, reducing Sneasler's Defences. If we look at the best STAB move for the secondary type:
252 Atk Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 109-129 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 136-162 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So while sneasler can do more damage with Close Combat on a neutral target, thats just one of its dual stabs, using a move that does have drawbacks.

If we look at attacking movepools for coverage, Sneasler's coverage options drop down in power in utility, with Fire Punch, Night Slash, Rock Slide, the notable exeption of U-turn as a very usefull momentum move, and trailblaze if you want to fail at OHKO'ing quagsire and get dabbed on by earthquake.

Chien Pao has one of the most disgusting coverage movepools it could want to have. Sure it dose not have that much, but Sacred sword and psychic fangs are on par or better than its STAB moves in terms of base power. And both also provide a way to bypass defense buffs from screens or iron defense increases. Chien Pao Benefits a lot more and hits a lot harder from its Coverage Movepool.

Type wise, Sneasler's dual stabs both have types that can be immune to them, and the type is somewhat unsynergetic because Ghost both is immune to fighting and resists poison, which is pretty bad for an Offensive STAB combo. You dont even need to be a dual type to prevent sneasler from taking Full advantage of its STAB attacks.

Chien-Pao's types, when attacking, have no immunities at all in the game, and outside of wonder guard, has never been types any pokemon has ever been immune to. There is also no single type that resists both of its STAB attacks, demanding a dual typing to resist its dual STABs.

My final point, and this is a really, really big one, is stats and priority moves.

Sneasler has 80 HP, 60 Defence, 80 Special Defence and 120 speed. Its only good priority move is Quick Attack, which is pretty bad.
Most priority moves are Physical, meaning they are hitting Sneasler on its weaker 60 Defence. And because Sneasler's only real priority move is Quick attack, Sneasler hates Priority moves. Even resisted priority moves deal considerable damage, if they dont straight up KO. Especially after close combat defence debuffs.
Sneasler has 120 Speed, which is very fast, but its outsped but a good chunk of meta relevant pokemon from a variety of types. Cyclizar, Tornadus-T, Greninja, Meowscarada, and Spectrier all have better base speed than Sneasler and are Slower than Chien-Pao. (if your wondering why this dosent feel like its the case, its probably because Sneaslers tend to run scarf, in large part because you need to do that to deal with Chien-Pao...).

Chien-Pao has 80 HP, 80 Defence, 65 Special Defence and 135 speed. Chien-Pao has access to both Ice Shard and Sucker Punch, both STAB and very good priority moves. Most priority moves are Physical, meaning they are hitting Chien-Pao on its better Physical Defence. Even then, Chien-Pao has its own very good priority moves, which it can use to nullify the threat of other priority users.
135 speed is the 6th best speed stat in the tier. Barraskewda, Zamazenta, Dragapult, The Electrodes and Regieleki are the only pokemon that can outspeed Chien-Pao.

Notes:
I know I'm not the best at making my points often, but in essence, ban Chien-Pao first lol. More seriously, Sneasler is definetly suffering from new toy syndrome. Sneasler is super strong, but you are just stopped by priority moves and cant do much about that other than switch out. Sneasler operates very effectivley at its role, but Chien-Pao is just ridiculous. It has less counterplay options and creates "no win" situations with much more ease than Sneasler. I just dont see how Sneasler warrants a ban in this meta when by a large majority of metrics, Chien-Pao is more problematic.

 

[Simon Science]

I said this, and this is where mushamu 's argument falls apart for me: your opponent gets no agency over who actually goes to sleep whereas Breloom and Amoonguss provide you this opportunity as a concession when you see them at preview.

You can and probably should play around Sneasler the way you'd play around a Spore user, but in reality what Sneasler means is that you can't switch your most obvious check in (say for non thought-out example, Tusk) unless it is outright immune to Dire Claw, which most types simply don't have. And suppose you actually do have to throw something in front of Sneasler? What happens if the mon wants gets parad and Sneasler still has the Sleep chance on a successive Dire Claw on a new mon? On paper the perfect check to this mon is Pex, and yet the vast majority of instances in which I've seen Pex out on Sneasler simply leads to the Sneasler player (usually Fighting) fishing for para/sleep to guarantee progress in a situation where they realistically should have no potential to do so.

Every time Sneasler is present in a game it creates a roulette that quite frankly is outside the scope of competitive play. It's pretty obvious and I don't think it's reasonable to at all to ask players to just concede to the chance that Sneasler blows up their gameplan due to factors outside their control even if they do play optimally.

I sort of want to adress this directly because I want to sort of crystalize my counterargument from my previous post.

1: This lack of agency has always been present as an assumed and accepted risk by the sheer existence of moves like Ice Beam and Relic Song. Paralysis, while crippling, is not a significant downside enough to be excluded from moves like Discharge. 16.6% chance to cause sleep is still pretty low, so it would be more of a discussion of "is this enough of a chance to sleep to be problematic", which in my opinion it isint

2: If the opponent gets hit with Paralysis, they can no longer get put to sleep by Sneasler. The unreliability of the move is also a downside for the user of the move too. As you cannot realistically "plan" for a specific outcome as the user of dire claw, meaning trying to fish for that status is a suboptimal strategy that only applies when all else fails. Speaking of which:

3:If "fishing for status to guarantee progress in a situation where they realistically have no potential to do so" was condition enough for a ban, you could make an argument to ban.... pretty much any move with a random effect, because that is just a consequence of moves having random extra effects. If you are up against an extremely passive pokemon that is going to let you try to roll that dice, and you dont have any other options, the only path left *is* that. The only difference here is that sneasler has a slightly higher chance to inflict a powerful status, and that's the new toy everyone is trying out. Forcing progress through the fishing of probabilistic effects has existed in all metagames from the start as a natural consequence of the game's mechanics, and I fail to see how Sneasler doing this is fundementally different.

4: last but not least, Sneasler really sucks at trying to roll for that status multiple times. if sneasler does not get the sleep and the opposing pokemon survived, Sneasler is probably going to just get KO'd in return. Letting an opposing pokemon actually survive your move, as sneasler, is extremely dangerous unless that pokemon is ridiculously passive, which is therefore a problem of the pokemon in question being way too passive, rather than Sneasler and Dire Claw's problem (cough, Toxapex, cough). If the opposing pokemon *isint* passive, sneasler gets one, MAYBE two chances to proc the dire claw probability.

In essence, this really just remains a matter of opinion of what you consider accepteable or unaccepteable probability. And in this instance, where precedent shows Togekiss and Jirachi abusing 60% flinch chances, and pretty much all bulky water types and their mother abusing scald, compared to a 16.6% chance to sleep on a pokemon that kindof sucks at taking advantage of it. To me, this simply does not make the cut.

 

[wkxkevin]

I sort of want to adress this directly because I want to sort of crystalize my counterargument from my previous post.

1: This lack of agency has always been present as an assumed and accepted risk by the sheer existence of moves like Ice Beam and Relic Song. Paralysis, while crippling, is not a significant downside enough to be excluded from moves like Discharge. 16.6% chance to cause sleep is still pretty low, so it would be more of a discussion of "is this enough of a chance to sleep to be problematic", which in my opinion it isint

2: If the opponent gets hit with Paralysis, they can no longer get put to sleep by Sneasler. The unreliability of the move is also a downside for the user of the move too. As you cannot realistically "plan" for a specific outcome as the user of dire claw, meaning trying to fish for that status is a suboptimal strategy that only applies when all else fails. Speaking of which:

3:If "fishing for status to guarantee progress in a situation where they realistically have no potential to do so" was condition enough for a ban, you could make an argument to ban.... pretty much any move with a random effect, because that is just a consequence of moves having random extra effects. If you are up against an extremely passive pokemon that is going to let you try to roll that dice, and you dont have any other options, the only path left *is* that. The only difference here is that sneasler has a slightly higher chance to inflict a powerful status, and that's the new toy everyone is trying out. Forcing progress through the fishing of probabilistic effects has existed in all metagames from the start as a natural consequence of the game's mechanics, and I fail to see how Sneasler doing this is fundementally different.

4: last but not least, Sneasler really sucks at trying to roll for that status multiple times. if sneasler does not get the sleep and the opposing pokemon survived, Sneasler is probably going to just get KO'd in return. Letting an opposing pokemon actually survive your move, as sneasler, is extremely dangerous unless that pokemon is ridiculously passive, which is therefore a problem of the pokemon in question being way too passive, rather than Sneasler and Dire Claw's problem (cough, Toxapex, cough). If the opposing pokemon *isint* passive, sneasler gets one, MAYBE two chances to proc the dire claw probability.

In essence, this really just remains a matter of opinion of what you consider accepteable or unaccepteable probability. And in this instance, where precedent shows Togekiss and Jirachi abusing 60% flinch chances, and pretty much all bulky water types and their mother abusing scald, compared to a 16.6% chance to sleep on a pokemon that kindof sucks at taking advantage of it. To me, this simply does not make the cut.

Here is why I disagree with your argument. We banned stuff like bright powder, lax incense, and quick claw, all of which only proc 10% of the time. The problem is not that the chances are low, is that there is chances at all. When you get hit with poison touch dire claw, I wish for the poison because that's the easiest status to deal with. However, paralysis can be sufficiently crippling for many pokemon. For example, you are not switching a weavile into a discharge. The problem with dire claw is that it's a decent move with a tremendous amount of luck factor as its secondary effect which is why I advocate for a move ban. The move is not overpowered, it's just too much based on luck. Returning to disharge, ice beam and relic song, when your opponent uses discharge, you know which status condition it is, so I can play around it. There is no playing around dire claw. You can switch pex in to absorb the poison but get slept and potentially lose.

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

However another reason why Bright Powder/Quick Claw was banned is that any Pokemon could use them. A 100% accuracy move randomly misses, or Quick Claw's text pops up, and you could not see that coming until it happened.

When the items ban discussion were happening, the anti-ban side brought up Serene Grace Togekiss/Jirachi which are not banned. The counterargument is that you know these Pokemon have (or have the capability of using) these hax, and you can play around it accordingly at the start of the game. I think this is kinda the same as Dire Claw.

Of course Dire Claw is different, both its effect and its user, but I don't think you can ban it solely on luck.

P.S. Also in Gen8, Kyurem and Moltres-G were contentious and discussed for a ban, partly because of their chance to freeze and flinch respectively. Neither ban happened at the end of the day, and the luck arguments were dismissed for being part of the expected RNG in Pokemon.

 

[showdownperson]

Monotype joke of the day: there is no more of this, instead, enjoy MY PERSONAL type ranking.
1. Flying, they got all four of the genies, so they have now MULTIPLE electric immunities in Lando and Thunder, they got Goltres, a generally solid mon with a few set options (weakness policy agility or resto-chesto, to name a few) Esper Wing H-Braviary is a snowballing threat if you lack dark types due to tinted lens + scarf/specs, and there's plenty of other solid options available to use for flying
2. Dark, not to keep beating the long-dead mudsdale, but they have a lot of great options, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Overqwill, H-samo, Hoopa-U, Gren, Chien-Pao, A-Muk, Sable, Grimm, it's to the point where dark suffers from 6 mon syndrome.
3. Water, Greninja, Toxapex, Pelipper, Basculegion, Barraskewda, Walking Wake, Azum, and Volcanion (yay! A scald user!) Are amongst water's strongest options as of home, combined with the weaknesses water has being mediocre at best (grass and electric) and you have quite a strong type
4. Poison, Dire claw sneasler, need I say more? Jokes aside, mono-poison got some pretty strong options from home in the form of Hisuian-Qwilfish (and Overqwil) Glowking and Glowbro, A-Muk, and sneasler (good lord, sneasler.) alongside having a ridiculous amount of regenerator mons such as pex, amoongus, glowking and glowbro, pesky steel types? Salazzle can poison with corrosion or threaten them with stab flamethrower/fire blast, glimmora is always gonna be a decent option with free toxic spikes, and gengar blocks spins, one of the more important niches to have as a poison type, which relies on stalling out the opponent.
5. Steel, when home came out, Heatran returned once more to live rent free in the heads of fire mains, and hoodra came to almost entirely invalidate water, making it a firm option against bundle (if it were to return) while retaining most of what makes goodra good, and then there's gholdengo, whose usage shot up due to hazards making a return again, along with removal attempts. Iron treads is always gonna be a good hazard setter and rapid spinner due to high speed and reliable bulk, Corviknight is good as always with the ground immunity being more important with heatran on the team, and as if that wasn't enough, there's kingambit, no team with gambit is truly out of the match, Swords dance Sash sucker punch? Go ahead, vest + 4 attacks? Go for it? Sash reversal? Knock yourself out.
6. Dragon, Most Pseudos are part dragon type with the odd exception this gen being T-tar, along with that, most dragon types that are physical/mixed have access to D-Dance or S-Dance, (Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite, Baxcaliber, Dragapult sometimes, Roaring Moon) and a fair few special attackers get nasty plot or just have high natural Sp. Atk (Hydregion, Regidrago, both Goodra forms, but Hoodra is better, Walking Wake)
7. Psychic, While Urshifu-S was running rampant on fighting, I would have ranked it a bit lower, but now that it's banned, psychic is now pretty high up on the list, and it has sharpness gallade, hatterene, Hisuian-Braviary, Espathra, Glow/Slow bro&king, Alolan-Raichu, and Hoopa-Unbound. Along with this, Psychic gets good removal of hazards, and even hazard returning in magic bounce hatterene or espeon, and Psychic has the ability to threaten poison, and help contribute to why fighting SUCKS.
8. Ghost, They have Gholdengo, Flutter Mane, and Spectrier, three good Pokémon due to their different ways of usage (maybe not the last two in terms of differences) along with that, houndstone has returned, albeit without the move that made it oppressive to deal with, and dragapult is always helpful against shed tail cyclizar/orthworm with infiltrator + dragon dance/specs/band, also, unaware skeledirge exists, so u can use wisp to cripple physical attackers, a very effective type held back by a dark weakness
9. Fairy, Crippled by losing the tapu quartet, fairy still somehow makes itself a type amongst the top half due to new things like Enamorus, Iron Valiant, and Flutter Mane combined with fairy being one of the best types in terms of match ups in terms of weaknesses and resistances.
10. Ground, STAB earthquake is always going to be nice, except when against flying types, but that's where rock type moves come in *stone miss* as for options, there's clodsire, (applaud him) Lando-I/Lando-T, Ursaluna, Tusk and Treads, Garchomp, Ting-Lu, Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Sandy Shocks if you're desperate for a ground/electric type for some reason, overall, a strong offensive type held back by a weakness to a top type (water)
11. Fire, with Volcanion, Fire has a water immunity and a decent way to best ground and rock types that isn't named scovillain, along with that, fire got heatran for the 5th generation in a row, and H-Arcanine is quite nice with no recoil rock head, flare blitz, double edge, and wild charge, and torkoal is always nice to have to set sun to trigger chlorophyll, boost fire type moves, and cripple water types (except walking wake) as for defensive options, unaware skeledirge just stops set up sweepers that can't threaten it and completely walls Iron defense Zamazenta. It must be said though that fire still loses points for the rocks weakness and no hazard removal other than rapid spin torkoal/coalossal or defog talonflame/oricorio
12. Electric, A solid type, has options like regieleki, zapdos, pawmot, rotom in general, thunder, magnezone, Electrodes, Iron hands, and Sandy Shocks, a great defensive type hindered by a lack of offense.
13. Bug, the type suffers from great mons having a HORRIBLE defensive typing in bug (weak to multiple common attacking types in fire, flying, and rock. While resisting grass, fighting, and ground, the same resistances as flying, which flying is immune to ground and resists bug as well) at least it threatens dark for super effective on all stabs, and has some pretty strong options in Scizor, Kleavor, Volcarona, Forretress, Lokix, Slither Wing, and I've even seen vivillion, venomoth, and frosmoth go wild at times due to quiver dancing.
14. Fighting, It's a highly offensive type with the ability to threaten mono-dark/steel for super effective damage, but both of those types have a ghost available (sableye/spiritomb for dark, gholdengo for steel) fighting also lacks many special attackers, which is problematic against a physical wall, and the loss of Urshifu isn't making things better due to single strike threatening psychic types that now run nigh unchecked against fighting.
15, Ice, saved from the bottom 3 due to Chien-Pao and Baxcaliber actually being good, most other ice types are slow and bulky, which is not good when paired with ice being like glass
16, Normal, Good defensive type, but Blissy lost toxic AND Soft-boiled got nerfed, there's no adaptability Porygon-Z or Eviolite Porygon-2, ditto is ditto as usual, and ursaluna, while good, isn't fast enough nor does it have a good defensive type, and H-Zoroark is definitely a good mon for screwing with your opponent's mind, not much else to be said other than the fact that it's on the lowest fifth of types.
17, Rock, A very offensive typing with mediocre defenses, but it benefits from sand with 1.5x special defense, and it has a good setter in tyranitar, a good setter of rocks and toxic spikes with glimmora, and H-Arcanine for strong recoil-free head smash nonsense, kleavor for keeping rocks in the event of a rapid spinner, garganacl for as"salt"ing the enemy with salt cure, and your last option can vary, however, it still doesn't have access to a flying type in gen 9, which would help against fighting and ground, nor a grass type to help with water and ground,
18. Grass, it just loses to most good types offensively in fire, poison, flying, ice, and bug, all decent offensive types, while resisting grass, ground, water, and electric, and it's resisted by fire, grass, flying, bug, poison, dragon, and steel, not to mention, it doesn't have ferrothorn, cradilly, I would say rillaboom because it got nerfed into the floor, and it now has 4 mons of the same type (grass-fighting) let me put it like this, it sucked before home, didn't get many good mons, and still sucks after home.
Please note, this is MY PERSONAL ranking, feel free to disagree.

 

[Dragapult]

Wyvern, I seriously have to disagree with you. Luna is defo worth a teamslot on ground... Also, the question I have is what is luna replacing that makes it not worth it. If it's shocks then you can just run a team without gravity.

 

[showdownperson]

Alright, here's a new ursaluna set that may or may not be good, leftovers guts ursaluna, "how would I trigger guts?" You definitely aren't asking, by switching in on a predicted will-o-wisp. (Please note, this is not a joke, but a niche set if you're sick of burn damage stacking up)

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Monotype joke of the day: there is no more of this, instead, enjoy MY PERSONAL type ranking.
1. Flying, they got all four of the genies, so they have now MULTIPLE electric immunities in Lando and Thunder, they got Goltres, a generally solid mon with a few set options (weakness policy agility or resto-chesto, to name a few) Esper Wing H-Braviary is a snowballing threat if you lack dark types due to tinted lens + scarf/specs, and there's plenty of other solid options available to use for flying
2. Dark, not to keep beating the long-dead mudsdale, but they have a lot of great options, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Overqwill, H-samo, Hoopa-U, Gren, Chien-Pao, A-Muk, Sable, Grimm, it's to the point where dark suffers from 6 mon syndrome.
3. Water, Greninja, Toxapex, Pelipper, Basculegion, Barraskewda, Walking Wake, Azum, and Volcanion (yay! A scald user!) Are amongst water's strongest options as of home, combined with the weaknesses water has being mediocre at best (grass and electric) and you have quite a strong type
4. Poison, Dire claw sneasler, need I say more? Jokes aside, mono-poison got some pretty strong options from home in the form of Hisuian-Qwilfish (and Overqwil) Glowking and Glowbro, A-Muk, and sneasler (good lord, sneasler.) alongside having a ridiculous amount of regenerator mons such as pex, amoongus, glowking and glowbro, pesky steel types? Salazzle can poison with corrosion or threaten them with stab flamethrower/fire blast, glimmora is always gonna be a decent option with free toxic spikes, and gengar blocks spins, one of the more important niches to have as a poison type, which relies on stalling out the opponent.
5. Steel, when home came out, Heatran returned once more to live rent free in the heads of fire mains, and hoodra came to almost entirely invalidate water, making it a firm option against bundle (if it were to return) while retaining most of what makes goodra good, and then there's gholdengo, whose usage shot up due to hazards making a return again, along with removal attempts. Iron treads is always gonna be a good hazard setter and rapid spinner due to high speed and reliable bulk, Corviknight is good as always with the ground immunity being more important with heatran on the team, and as if that wasn't enough, there's kingambit, no team with gambit is truly out of the match, Swords dance Sash sucker punch? Go ahead, vest + 4 attacks? Go for it? Sash reversal? Knock yourself out.
6. Dragon, Most Pseudos are part dragon type with the odd exception this gen being T-tar, along with that, most dragon types that are physical/mixed have access to D-Dance or S-Dance, (Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite, Baxcaliber, Dragapult sometimes, Roaring Moon) and a fair few special attackers get nasty plot or just have high natural Sp. Atk (Hydregion, Regidrago, both Goodra forms, but Hoodra is better, Walking Wake)
7. Psychic, While Urshifu-S was running rampant on fighting, I would have ranked it a bit lower, but now that it's banned, psychic is now pretty high up on the list, and it has sharpness gallade, hatterene, Hisuian-Braviary, Espathra, Glow/Slow bro&king, Alolan-Raichu, and Hoopa-Unbound. Along with this, Psychic gets good removal of hazards, and even hazard returning in magic bounce hatterene or espeon, and Psychic has the ability to threaten poison, and help contribute to why fighting SUCKS.
8. Ghost, They have Gholdengo, Flutter Mane, and Spectrier, three good Pokémon due to their different ways of usage (maybe not the last two in terms of differences) along with that, houndstone has returned, albeit without the move that made it oppressive to deal with, and dragapult is always helpful against shed tail cyclizar/orthworm with infiltrator + dragon dance/specs/band, also, unaware skeledirge exists, so u can use wisp to cripple physical attackers, a very effective type held back by a dark weakness
9. Fairy, Crippled by losing the tapu quartet, fairy still somehow makes itself a type amongst the top half due to new things like Enamorus, Iron Valiant, and Flutter Mane combined with fairy being one of the best types in terms of match ups in terms of weaknesses and resistances.
10. Ground, STAB earthquake is always going to be nice, except when against flying types, but that's where rock type moves come in *stone miss* as for options, there's clodsire, (applaud him) Lando-I/Lando-T, Ursaluna, Tusk and Treads, Garchomp, Ting-Lu, Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Sandy Shocks if you're desperate for a ground/electric type for some reason, overall, a strong offensive type held back by a weakness to a top type (water)
11. Fire, with Volcanion, Fire has a water immunity and a decent way to best ground and rock types that isn't named scovillain, along with that, fire got heatran for the 5th generation in a row, and H-Arcanine is quite nice with no recoil rock head, flare blitz, double edge, and wild charge, and torkoal is always nice to have to set sun to trigger chlorophyll, boost fire type moves, and cripple water types (except walking wake) as for defensive options, unaware skeledirge just stops set up sweepers that can't threaten it and completely walls Iron defense Zamazenta. It must be said though that fire still loses points for the rocks weakness and no hazard removal other than rapid spin torkoal/coalossal or defog talonflame/oricorio
12. Electric, A solid type, has options like regieleki, zapdos, pawmot, rotom in general, thunder, magnezone, Electrodes, Iron hands, and Sandy Shocks, a great defensive type hindered by a lack of offense.
13. Bug, the type suffers from great mons having a HORRIBLE defensive typing in bug (weak to multiple common attacking types in fire, flying, and rock. While resisting grass, fighting, and ground, the same resistances as flying, which flying is immune to ground and resists bug as well) at least it threatens dark for super effective on all stabs, and has some pretty strong options in Scizor, Kleavor, Volcarona, Forretress, Lokix, Slither Wing, and I've even seen vivillion, venomoth, and frosmoth go wild at times due to quiver dancing.
14. Fighting, It's a highly offensive type with the ability to threaten mono-dark/steel for super effective damage, but both of those types have a ghost available (sableye/spiritomb for dark, gholdengo for steel) fighting also lacks many special attackers, which is problematic against a physical wall, and the loss of Urshifu isn't making things better due to single strike threatening psychic types that now run nigh unchecked against fighting.
15, Ice, saved from the bottom 3 due to Chien-Pao and Baxcaliber actually being good, most other ice types are slow and bulky, which is not good when paired with ice being like glass
16, Normal, Good defensive type, but Blissy lost toxic AND Soft-boiled got nerfed, there's no adaptability Porygon-Z or Eviolite Porygon-2, ditto is ditto as usual, and ursaluna, while good, isn't fast enough nor does it have a good defensive type, and H-Zoroark is definitely a good mon for screwing with your opponent's mind, not much else to be said other than the fact that it's on the lowest fifth of types.
17, Rock, A very offensive typing with mediocre defenses, but it benefits from sand with 1.5x special defense, and it has a good setter in tyranitar, a good setter of rocks and toxic spikes with glimmora, and H-Arcanine for strong recoil-free head smash nonsense, kleavor for keeping rocks in the event of a rapid spinner, garganacl for as"salt"ing the enemy with salt cure, and your last option can vary, however, it still doesn't have access to a flying type in gen 9, which would help against fighting and ground, nor a grass type to help with water and ground,
18. Grass, it just loses to most good types offensively in fire, poison, flying, ice, and bug, all decent offensive types, while resisting grass, ground, water, and electric, and it's resisted by fire, grass, flying, bug, poison, dragon, and steel
Please note, this is MY PERSONAL ranking, feel free to disagree.

Aight like I don't want the thread to be people just listing they're type rankings, but fam if you're gonna post it... don't discuss mus as if they are nothing more than the type chart. At least have proper understanding and discussion on the type's capabilities and what sets them apart and what they bring to the table.

I'll just hyperfocus on like 2 or 3 types real quick, and maybe call out some stuff that's just blatantly wrong.

Ground, for example, I wouldn't define as being an "offensive type". It's literally one of the only types that can pull an effective defensive backbone, to the point that even if you drop a mon like ting lu, you're usually still working with 3 bulky mons and a balanced build. You make it sound like it's weird to consider Sandy Shocks, when it's one of the only ways past a Corviknight. What holds ground back isn't just water either, as it's dark mu I consider an autoloss to any competent player due to Greninja/Chien Pao/Meowscarada - even if they only have 2 of those 3 you're in a real rough spot. If Gren was out of the picture, Ground in my opinion would have a much better Water mu, but still struggle immensely to Dark. With the addition of home, Ground has been finding itself having a bit of trouble figuring out new builds so far that can cover everything. The new mons - Landorus and Ursaluna, are good options but neither really solve what Ground had trouble with prior to home. Not to mention, but with the addition of new threats - Lilligant - H for example, Ground finds itself struggling to keep up as most other types seemingly got a strong boost.

Bug, you literally just list its type chart and what mons it can use. Again, this isn't saying anything. You're not making a point if you don't cover how the mons, and type as a whole, actually interacts in the metagame. Bug I definitely think is above Electric and Ground for example. In comparison to Ground where the new mons don't patch any of ground's issues, Kleavor offers a very missed Bug/Rock typing, and ability to threaten fast flying types while setting rocks at the same time. It allows Bug to be a bit more versatile in the last slot, which is why I consider Frosmoth far more viable than before right now. Bug has always had what it's needed for an effective offense, and usually has worked as an anti meta type that can build to cover different parts of the meta pretty well. When you put together Bug's options right now, you have more than enough counterplay for Flying, with Frosmoth, Will o Volc, Kleavor all being real threats, not to mention a solid mu vs. types such as Dark. It's able to break steel cores with Slither, has options to help with the Water mu, and really it's like half of what I use at high ladder. Everything you put in the top 10 I think Bug has a pretty decent mu against, or at least ability to build for without compromising the build. With downsides being an awful Fire mu, and the last slot unable to cover all of bug's big threats at once, whether it be bulk up tauros-paldea-fire or dondozo.

Some things I'll quickly point out to the mono community. Please don't use any Kingambit set this person listed here, Kingambit is a mon I think may be suspect worthy for the future but it's very silly to run a sash on it. Also it's assault vest set is pretty awful, don't do that either.

Don't think forums is a place to put rankings, else everyone would just spam them. I disagree with a decent amount of your rankings, but find it kinda hard to make anything constructive out of this, the post is literally just saying "this type has this this this, and is weak to this this". Reality is, yes as you said Water is weak to grass/electric, it's electric matchup isn't necessarily that bad though. In contrast, any psy or fighting team running gallade would be able to cut through Water's defensive core like butter. Fighting in particular, has many really threatening options for Water such as Breloom and Lilli H. Dragon may not be super effective against Flying, but is a favored matchup nonetheless - especially if they're running Baxcalibur.

 

[showdownperson]

Aight like I don't want the thread to be people just listing they're type rankings, but fam if you're gonna post it... don't discuss mus as if they are nothing more than the type chart. At least have proper understanding and discussion on the type's capabilities and what sets them apart and what they bring to the table.

I'll just hyperfocus on like 2 or 3 types real quick, and maybe call out some stuff that's just blatantly wrong.

Ground, for example, I wouldn't define as being an "offensive type". It's literally one of the only types that can pull an effective defensive backbone, to the point that even if you drop a mon like ting lu, you're usually still working with 3 bulky mons and a balanced build. You make it sound like it's weird to consider Sandy Shocks, when it's one of the only ways past a Corviknight. What holds ground back isn't just water either, as it's dark mu I consider an autoloss to any competent player due to Greninja/Chien Pao/Meowscarada - even if they only have 2 of those 3 you're in a real rough spot. If Gren was out of the picture, Ground in my opinion would have a much better Water mu, but still struggle immensely to Dark. With the addition of home, Ground has been finding itself having a bit of trouble figuring out new builds so far that can cover everything. The new mons - Landorus and Ursaluna, are good options but neither really solve what Ground had trouble with prior to home. Not to mention, but with the addition of new threats - Lilligant - H for example, Ground finds itself struggling to keep up as most other types seemingly got a strong boost.

Bug, you literally just list its type chart and what mons it can use. Again, this isn't saying anything. You're not making a point if you don't cover how the mons, and type as a whole, actually interacts in the metagame. Bug I definitely think is above Electric and Ground for example. In comparison to Ground where the new mons don't patch any of ground's issues, Kleavor offers a very missed Bug/Rock typing, and ability to threaten fast flying types while setting rocks at the same time. It allows Bug to be a bit more versatile in the last slot, which is why I consider Frosmoth far more viable than before right now. Bug has always had what it's needed for an effective offense, and usually works to an extent as an anti meta type that can build to cover different things. When you put together Bug's options right now, you have more than enough counterplay for Flying, with Frosmoth, Will o Volc, Kleavor all being real threats, not to mention a solid mu vs. types such as Dark. It's able to break steel cores with Slither, has options to help with the Water mu, and really it's like half of what I use at high ladder. Everything you put in the top 10 I think Bug has a pretty decent mu against, or at least ability to build for without compromising the build. With downsides being an awful Fire mu, and the last slot unable to cover all of bug's big threats at once, whether it be bulk up tauros-paldea fire or dondozo.

Some things I'll quickly point out to the mono community. Please don't use any Kingambit set this person listed here, Kingambit is a mon I think may be suspect worthy for the future but it's very silly to run a sash on it. Also it's assault vest set is pretty awful, don't do that either.

Don't think forums is a place to put rankings, else everyone would just spam them. I disagree with a decent amount of your rankings, but find it kinda hard to make anything constructive out of this, the post is literally just saying "this type has this this this, and is weak to this this". Reality is, yes as you said Water is weak to grass/electric, it's electric matchup isn't necessarily that bad though. In contrast, any psy or fighting team running gallade would be able to cut through Water's defensive core like butter. Fighting in particular, has many really threatening options for Water such as Breloom and Lilli H. Dragon may not be super effective against Flying, but is a favored matchup nonetheless - especially if they're running Baxcalibur.

I know, but matchups do help determine where a type may struggle the most, electric types seldom beat ground unless they bring electrode-H and (likely will bring anyways) rotom-wash, which are good mons don't get me wrong, grass just loses to almost everything due to a combination of losing their best tools, abysmal type matchups (loses to a soild chunk of the chart) And not having enough solid options (meow, Electrode, all 4 fighting-grass types, amoongus, brambleghast, iron leaves if you're feeling lucky, and discount tapu bulu, also known as rillaboom) and as often as I do play Ground, I rarely find sandy shocks, which is itself a shocker because, I'm gonna agree with you here, it's a solid mon held back by a limiting movepool and usually useless ability (in the context of monotype) can an experienced player win in a bad matchup? Absolutely, monotype is itself a format about overcoming a type's bad matchups.

 

[finncepti0n]

Aight like I don't want the thread to be people just listing they're type rankings, but fam if you're gonna post it... don't discuss mus as if they are nothing more than the type chart. At least have proper understanding and discussion on the type's capabilities and what sets them apart and what they bring to the table.

I'll just hyperfocus on like 2 or 3 types real quick, and maybe call out some stuff that's just blatantly wrong.

Ground, for example, I wouldn't define as being an "offensive type". It's literally one of the only types that can pull an effective defensive backbone, to the point that even if you drop a mon like ting lu, you're usually still working with 3 bulky mons and a balanced build. You make it sound like it's weird to consider Sandy Shocks, when it's one of the only ways past a Corviknight. What holds ground back isn't just water either, as it's dark mu I consider an autoloss to any competent player due to Greninja/Chien Pao/Meowscarada - even if they only have 2 of those 3 you're in a real rough spot. If Gren was out of the picture, Ground in my opinion would have a much better Water mu, but still struggle immensely to Dark. With the addition of home, Ground has been finding itself having a bit of trouble figuring out new builds so far that can cover everything. The new mons - Landorus and Ursaluna, are good options but neither really solve what Ground had trouble with prior to home. Not to mention, but with the addition of new threats - Lilligant - H for example, Ground finds itself struggling to keep up as most other types seemingly got a strong boost.

Bug, you literally just list its type chart and what mons it can use. Again, this isn't saying anything. You're not making a point if you don't cover how the mons, and type as a whole, actually interacts in the metagame. Bug I definitely think is above Electric and Ground for example. In comparison to Ground where the new mons don't patch any of ground's issues, Kleavor offers a very missed Bug/Rock typing, and ability to threaten fast flying types while setting rocks at the same time. It allows Bug to be a bit more versatile in the last slot, which is why I consider Frosmoth far more viable than before right now. Bug has always had what it's needed for an effective offense, and usually has worked as an anti meta type that can build to cover different parts of the meta pretty well. When you put together Bug's options right now, you have more than enough counterplay for Flying, with Frosmoth, Will o Volc, Kleavor all being real threats, not to mention a solid mu vs. types such as Dark. It's able to break steel cores with Slither, has options to help with the Water mu, and really it's like half of what I use at high ladder. Everything you put in the top 10 I think Bug has a pretty decent mu against, or at least ability to build for without compromising the build. With downsides being an awful Fire mu, and the last slot unable to cover all of bug's big threats at once, whether it be bulk up tauros-paldea-fire or dondozo.

Some things I'll quickly point out to the mono community. Please don't use any Kingambit set this person listed here, Kingambit is a mon I think may be suspect worthy for the future but it's very silly to run a sash on it. Also it's assault vest set is pretty awful, don't do that either.

Don't think forums is a place to put rankings, else everyone would just spam them. I disagree with a decent amount of your rankings, but find it kinda hard to make anything constructive out of this, the post is literally just saying "this type has this this this, and is weak to this this". Reality is, yes as you said Water is weak to grass/electric, it's electric matchup isn't necessarily that bad though. In contrast, any psy or fighting team running gallade would be able to cut through Water's defensive core like butter. Fighting in particular, has many really threatening options for Water such as Breloom and Lilli H. Dragon may not be super effective against Flying, but is a favored matchup nonetheless - especially if they're running Baxcalibur.

gonna have to completely agree with wyv here. meta is nowhere near settled so things can still change; quickbans are still happening. Having psy higher than ghost, fighting, and fairy is absolutely criminal tbh, but i agree with wyv that it's pointless to go into it bc it'll just spam the forums and the meta will change within a week or two anyways.

 

[wkxkevin]

View attachment 524157

I am genuinely curious why you think gravity is required on ground.

 

[Aschmaros]

While I acknowledge Corruption's viewpoint regarding existing precedents, I firmly stand by my assertion that Dire is inherently uncompetitive and I believe those precedents cannot be factored into this discussion of Dire Claw since Dire Claw is fundamentally different than those listed.

The closest precedent for Dire Claw actually is the move Tri Attack and the ability Effect Spore; however, there are distinct differences that set them apart. Tri Attack besides being below subpar move, it merely holds a modest 20% chance (thus approximately 6% likelihood per status infliction), whereas the potency of Dire Claw is exponentially greater, boasting an impressive 50% chance (or roughly 16% probability to inflict them). You can have the discussion on rather Freeze is worse on to have than Sleep, but the fact of the matter is, is that Sleep is much more reliable in its effect. You know the opponent will be slept for a minimum of one turn whereas, if you're unlucky with freeze, they can thaw out the very next turn.
TLDR: I believe Dire Claw inflicts much more universally and more reliable crippling status effects than Tri-Attack alongside having a much higher chance of inflicting them
Effect Spore, I don't feel like I need to say why Dire Claw is worse than it, but I will regardless. Effect Spore not only being a subpar option for the ability slot of the pokemon who has it (Amonguss and Breloom specifically since they are the only pokemon available who has them), but it has a 30% chance ( 9%,10%,11% for poison, para, and sleep respectively if bulbapedia isn't wrong on this) and relies on contact moves...meaning you can switch into any special attacker and play around it completely.

You've got a 1/6 chance to:

• get 1/2 speed AND a potential disable each turn
• take damage every turn (w/e)
• get disabled for at least a turn minimum

There's no reliable switch-in to both the damage and the effects outside of maybe Pex (The fact people are seriously running covert cloak pex/any pokemon just for sneasler and not wanting to deal with dire claw's bullshit should be another indicator honestly) or Steels that aren't weak to Fighting, which is a small handful of the already small pile of steels available to some types (Not to mention, like half of the types don't have access to a steel type), so most of the time, either you're either getting hit by a hard attack... or taking the chance you could get your wall crippled when Sneasler comes in. Don't have a steel type or covert cloak pex? Good Luck trying to pivot into this without getting crippled!

So to Summarize:

• It's hard-to-impossible to pivot into outside of slow U-turn or a very slim list of checks.
• It's inherently uncompetitive to an insane degree; a coin flip between doing only damage, or a 2/3 chance to totally cripple whatever gets hit
• It's a spammable attack on an already strong sweeper on both typings with no downside
• Sneasler has a couple sets that all need to be checked in somewhat different ways, but do the same thing regardless (Unburden with/without acrobatics (dig + power herb also), Poison Touch (I believe Unburden is the better of the two, but people seriously considering Poison Touch so i'm mentioning it here), Swords Dance, Sash + 4 attack moves, Scarf, Choice Banded, etc) so even without mentioning Dire Claw, Sneasler itself is insane that I will probably make a separate post discussing. Dire Claw just pushes this pokemon over the edge.

 

[showdownperson]

Because I feel like giving my two cents about sneasler, I'm going to give my two cents on sneasler.
Factor 1. Dire Claw, as has been said more times than the amount of people there are wanting Iron bundle unbanned, it's an insane move, a 50% chance to give the opponent a status (≈16% chance per) is, needless to say, absurd, and these statuses are all decent as well in poison, paralysis, and sleep, and steel isn't safe due to factor two,
Factor 2. Movepool, as a poison/fighting type, it gets access to STAB Close Combat, and you can't even safely switch to a ghost type because sneasler gets night slash, which is also helpful against every non-scarfed psychic type, because no ALLOWED psychic type can outspeed it without scarf.
Factor 3. Stats and abilities, Sneasler is tied for the 14th fastest mon in the monotype format, and tied for the 10th highest attack stat in the format, which isn't a huge problem in itself, it's the abilities it gets alongside these stats, poison touch just boosts the poison chance of Dire claw to ≈46% if I am correct, and gives close combat, night slash, and whatever other offensive move you're running the ability to poison 30% of the time, and unburden allows sneasler to double the already high speed it has upon using the item it has, AND doubles the power of acrobatics, so 4 attacks + Sash is a real option, so is band poison touch, Sash dance (sash + swords dance) unburden, scarf, endure liechi berry, and some people have even seen dig + power herb sneasler, all of these sets require somewhat different methods of countering, but generally all do the same thing, either mess your team up so a teammate can sweep, clean up, or reverse sweep you if you aren't ready for it.
In summary, sneasler is a great offensive powerhouse with great abilities and typing for the role, and that's not even mentioning the great movepool and absurd amount of set options it has, so you'll never know for certain what the opposing sneasler is up to until the opponent uses it.

 

[juleocesar]

Since a lot of players are discussing Dire Claws and Sneasler in general I thought to give my own opinions about it. Most of it was already said in Monotype room but I still feel it is better to address my points in here, providing as much arguments as I can in order to display why Sneasler is a forced to be reckoned with in Post-HOME meta and very likely deserves a ban or a suspect.

1- Dire Claws. The obvious problem which a lot of people have addressed currently, especially because you can't predict what status you are getting thus risking plenty of possible switchins it would have otherwise. Azick covered this part pretty well so im not gonna add much. Inflicting sleep or para can also give it free turns for set Swords Dance up and eventually clean the game up. Covert Cloak is likely the only item that enables counterplay, but that alone isn't enough to handle Sneasler in plenty of teams, as we are brought to the next issue:

2- Unburden. A lot of players aren't really addressing this, but the fact this Pokemon has 130 base attack and can literally double speed through Fake Out + Normal gem or White Herb Close Combat is just insane. Some people also run Air Balloon since it has decent bulk to live a hit most of the time, and then Swords Dance essentially giving it +2 attack and speed. It also gets acrobatics enabling it to invalidate a couple of types (some requiring the dire claw gamble), incluiding but not limited to: Grass, Bug, Fighting, Flying, Steel, Dragon (once gholdengo is weakened or with night slash), and so on. Even if it doesnt outright sweep those types, it can weaken them enough for the rest of the team to clean up. Poison + Fighting + Dark/Flying coverage is no joke and can really put opponents in a rough time. For me its always going to be the superior ability in comparison to Poison Touch (which's something you don't really want to run as it can make sleep inducing or para inducing more difficult).

The combination of these two factors can make it uncompetitive to deal with in the very least as it rewards plays that do not require great amounts of thoughts or skill. For instance, if you get a dire claw sleep right in the early game this can open up a great advantage without necessarily being the players choice, and sometimes even enabling unburden sweeps as mentioned. Overall its not dire claws making it uncompetitive but its combination with its offensive stats and Unburden, so just wanted to let it clear for players who haven't been in that much contact with this Pokemon yet.

 

[Rex Slayer]

To help Snealser get away from the allegations of using Dire Claws, I will talk about the recent developments of Flying monotype! As you all know, I am mostly known for using Flying in monotype, and I am a diehard fan of it.

To begin, I would say that Flying experienced a great development when Home dropped, with the return of the genies and legendary birds to the forefront of the meta. Immunities such as Landorus, Thundurus, and neutralities such as Zapdos replaced the likes of Kilowattrel, which was great offensively with Specs Thunder, Hurricane, and Weather Ball. However, Kilowattrel lacked a defensive backbone to deal with powerful threats such as Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, Sandy Shocks, and more.

Killowattrel also suffered from a more shallow move pool which limited what users could potentially do with on mono flying ( Though mirror match against electric was funny cause dnite went brrrr). Thus making the pokemon rather predictable to deal with, unless the opposing team struggled the amzing electric flying dual stab spec or boots combo. Thundurus being superior option allows for a multitude of set being scarf, boots, specs, set up, while also hitter harder then killowatrrel.

Of course, some moves were removed in Gen 9, nerfing the genies and birds a bit. However, the number one thing I would like to address early is the removal of Defog! With its removal from many vital Pokemon, Flying faces a greater issue of hazard removal since the likes of Gen 5 monotype. Since the only arguably viable option as a defogger is Corviknight, but that's where the issues start. Corviknight is a key Pokemon on monotype Flying and is used to check threats such as Chien Pao, Flutter Mane, Baxiacalibur, and the list goes on. Corviknight is often forced to use one of its move slots to fit Defog, removing the chance to use Bulk Up, Iron Defense, Taunt, or U-turn. The only other options we had pre-Home were Talonflame, which worked decently for its time, but now it gets overshadowed by more vital Pokemon on Flying and it performs less favorably lately. (Recently, I experimented with Mold Breaker Hawlucha in the last week of MLT, which case performed pretty good, but still needs more testing.)

As we already know how well the genies perform, I would also like to talk about the new addition, Enamorus, for a bit. We already know what it did for mono Fairy, but I would like to talk about it from the perspective of mono Flying. Enamorus is the best offensive Pokémon I have seen in a long time, better than Gen 8 Moltres-Galar. Its move pool is nasty as hell, being able to hit all types for some type of damage, neutral or super effective. Commonly, people run Boots or Scarf, but I have taken a liking towards Specs because it hits so hard. It also seems that the Enamorus-T Calm Mind set has also entered monotype, but to be honest, I find it kind of mid, as its placement matters way more, which doesn't fit my playstyle :[

 

[Rex Slayer]

Lastly I will also be dropping the AV Gyarados set that boomp that made for me! This primarily use to deal with pesky ice beam specs gren

Gyarados @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 152 HP / 124 Atk / 220 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Earthquake

~Adios

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Genuinely, I don't think Sneasler is that bad, I can see reason for suspecting it but I think the comparison to Togekiss/Jirachi earlier was a good one in that you know the potential for hax for Dire Claws and can account for it somewhat. I also feel that alot of what people have been saying about it has been greatly exaggerated.

2- Unburden. A lot of players aren't really addressing this, but the fact this Pokemon has 130 base attack and can literally double speed through Fake Out + Normal gem or White Herb Close Combat is just insane. Some people also run Air Balloon since it has decent bulk to live a hit most of the time, and then Swords Dance essentially giving it +2 attack and speed. It also gets acrobatics enabling it to invalidate a couple of types (some requiring the dire claw gamble), incluiding but not limited to: Grass, Bug, Fighting, Flying, Steel, Dragon (once gholdengo is weakened or with night slash), and so on. Even if it doesnt outright sweep those types, it can weaken them enough for the rest of the team to clean up. Poison + Fighting + Dark/Flying coverage is no joke and can really put opponents in a rough time. For me its always going to be the superior ability in comparison to Poison Touch (which's something you don't really want to run as it can make sleep inducing or para inducing more difficult).

I can see Grass being invalidated by Unburden Sneasler, though I'd argue without a reliable defensive core Sneasler isn't particularly noteworthy for this. The other 5 types I really don't see as being "invalidated" here whatsoever. Bug has Rocky Helm Forretress + BP Scizor which can both mitigate Sneasler pretty reliably, not to mention Sneasler needs to be boosted to KO Kleavor which has the Aerial Ace option at its disposal. Bug also relies on multiple setup sweepers, and it's more than plausible Sneasler wouldn't find the chance to try and sweep to begin with. Even if it's Normal Gem Fakeout, Fake Out + Acrobatics requires chip in order to defeat Bulk Volc. Saying Sneasler invalidates Flying is also crazy, between Landorus-T, Corviknight, and Dragonite, Flying is definitely not the type Sneasler is shutting down. Not to mention the many 600 BST Options flying has which can tank a hit from Sneasler, in many cases from +2 as well - Moltres G and Zapdos for example are capable of this. Even with acrobatics, Fighting isn't really losing to Sneasler either and even at +2 a Sneasler acrobatics sweep isn't anywhere near guaranteed. +1 0 hp/0 defense Zamazenta has a >80% live role from +2 acrobatics, Iron Hands isn't dying from anything a +2 Sneasler has, there are multiple priority options which Fighting has to in order to help revenge kill, and Unburden Acrobatics Sneasler doesn't seem like an unprecedented threat when the Fighting Mirrors have involved Unburden Hawlucha in the past. Steel not only has Gholdengo as you said, but on steel Corvs are more likely to run Brave Bird as well - making it an even more reliable counter than it would be on Flying. I do have a Scizor Steel that I enjoy - where Scizor would be pretty reliable at revenge killing here, but recognizing that Scizor isn't too common, Klefki which is more likely to be run in the last slot can win the interaction if it's the ID/CM/Draining Kiss set. Lastly, Dragon is probs the most likely to experience a Sneasler issue aside from Grass on this list, but still has Chomp and Dnite which both counter, and multiple pokemon which can live anything Sneasler has assuming it's unable to get a Swords Dance up.

Anyhow I'm mostly making another post because of the mon I think should be suspected next being Spectrier. I usually find that the problems a pokemon presents to the meta become more apparent when I am using it consistently rather than facing it with a team I'm comfortable vs. the meta with. Especially compared to Sneasler, I'd found Spectrier to be far more likely to pull off a sweep. Maybe some of these issues Spectrier presents stems from the builder or opponent making a misplay of some sort, but generally speaking I'd seen other players pull off successful Spectrier sweeps without much counterplay far more often and consistently than they'd been able to with Sneasler. With Calm Mind compounding boosts, Grim Neigh allowing Spec to snowball, and Will o crippling physical attackers, it's not difficult for Spectrier to find an opportunity to set up. Maybe I'm seeing Spectrier as more problematic solely from confirmation bias. Or maybe in a similar light, I see Spectrier as more problematic because it performs better vs. the meta than Sneasler (at least in my opinion). Either way it's kind of silly to me how easy it is for Spectrier to start to snowball, draining kiss allows for a form of recovery now as well, and has solid coverage with it's preferred stab. Similar to how Sneasler can invalidate Grass, Spectrier can do the same thing with Fighting, Calm Mind Will o kind of cleans with Zamazenta being the only check, and if a Nasty Plot Sub Salac is able to get the +2 SPA and +1 Speed boost then it's pretty much good game.

Last pokemon I'll bring up is Zamazenta, If I'm being completely honest I've seen like 0 fighting since the Shifu ban, but this definitely seems top 3 on most people's suspect's list anyhow. Kinda wanted to bring it back into convo a bit, Iron Defense Body Press seems like a bit of a problem for multiple types. I'm not super opinionated yet just cause I hardly see it, but even so I still kinda see it as worse than Sneasler.

 

[mushamu]

While I acknowledge Corruption's viewpoint regarding existing precedents, I firmly stand by my assertion that Dire is inherently uncompetitive and I believe those precedents cannot be factored into this discussion of Dire Claw since Dire Claw is fundamentally different than those listed.

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

Dire Claw does not do this any more than moves like Freeze Dry or Fiery Wrath do. The Togekiss and Jirachi flinching chance was a good comparison in that both of the moves in Sneasler's Dire Claw and Togekiss or Jirachi's Air Slash or Iron Head does not decide games for the most part if you play well. Sure, there's going to be 1/10 games where Dire Claw RNGs the worse player out of a win against the better player, but for the most part, that's Pokemon. You cannot ever eliminate the probability that Dire Claw completely lucks someone out of a win, but you also cannot ever eliminate the probability that Fiery Wrath ends the game with a flinch or Freeze Dry ends the game with a Freeze. In fact, I'd go as far as to call Freeze Dry and Fiery Wrath worse than Dire Claw when put into practice because in SS Monotype, there are a lot of deciding turns where Fiery Wrath and Freeze Dry can easily end the game with one instance of favorable RNG, but with Dire Claw there is better counterplay this generation. On paper, Dire Claw is absurd, but in practice it's no worse than many other RNG inducing moves when a lot of them have the potential to be game ending as well. What takes it out of being uncompetitive is the fact that for the most part, if you lose to Dire Claw, there's a huge chance that the game was in your hands and you played yourself in a position to lose to it.

I don't think Sneasler has any place in a competitive metagame. A 50% chance to status stacked to 65% when you include poison touch is, in my eyes, just ridiculous. I don't have replays bc unfortunately I do not tend to save replays but I've definitely seen it pull some games out of its ass by getting like a sleep into a para and just completely crippling the other team within two turns. Whether or not it has checks(of course it does, its a poison move and one steel type can negate the move itself and stuff like corv/ghold can take CC's ), I don't think it changes the fact that the move is simply uncompetitve and can easily "render more skillfull play irrelevant." In general due to its great speed and attack just one sleep can set you up for a Swords Dance and then I think Sneasler can run through a good portion of the meta. 16.67 is not negligible and a 50% chance for another status ensures that your not losing out on a ton if you don't happen to get the sleep. Someone made an interesting comment that I liked; While you can manage your sleeps against something as Amoongus by predicting the spores and making it go to the least useful slot you can't do the same thing with Dire Claw, its just a game of utter chance and Sneasler is such a strong Pokemon with decent dual stab typings that if you only have one decent check to it and you switch it in to a sleep thats likely going to be game changing. Overall, whether the move or Pokemon is utterly broken or not, its simply uncompetitive in my opinion and should be removed.

I really don't see how your example with Dire Claw inducing Sleep is any different than something like Kyurem and Galarian Moltres inflicting their RNG in SS Monotype. Galarian Moltres setting up and then flinching the check with Fiery Wrath happens and can ultimately be game changing, but for the most part, it's only 20%. The other 80% means Galarian Moltres is getting dealt with one way or another, and that's the same way with Dire Claw. For example, if you miss out on Sleep against Landorus-T and Quagsire, then you completely lose your Sneasler- while Sneasler itself usually only gets 1 chance per game to set up if you're using Swords Dance. If Landorus-T or Quagsire get paralyzed or poisoned, then that's fine because you still beat Sneasler at the end of the day. Greninja clicking Ice Beam over and over again will probably get a freeze, but that doesn't make it uncompetitive. This entire post makes good points about what Sneasler can do with favorable RNG but I don't see how it's different than the other luck based interactions of Pokemon in practice. Probability management is a huge part of Pokemon and Dire Claw falls under this.

Every time Sneasler is present in a game it creates a roulette that quite frankly is outside the scope of competitive play.

Personally outside of a select few games with extremely favorable RNG, I haven't really seen Sneasler's Dire Claw make a huge difference in the outcome of the game where a player didn't misplay to get into that position beforehand. You list Great Tusk as an example of a Sneasler answer that can get crippled by Dire Claw which I agree with, but the probability that you lose solely because Great Tusk gets statused is pretty low. My entire argument was based on the fact that Dire Claw should not be game deciding if you play well around it. This is why I feel the Jirachi and Togekiss's flinch chance is applicable to Dire Claw; if you play yourself into a position where an 80 BP Poison move pulls some RNG on you to lose, then you probably did something to ensure it considering it does have a good amount of counterplay across the board. On paper, the move is absurd, but in practice it doesn't take the game out of the player's hands any more than other moves do. Many teams have more than 1 way of dealing with Sneasler, like Dragonite and Garchomp like TheWyvernKing mentioned, and that's a valid point because you do need to get a fuckton of RNG in your way to win with Sneasler unless the type is inherently weak to setup.

Dire Claw, and by extension Sneasler being banned from Monotype would set off a horrible precedent regarding how RNG is tiered.

 

[Day Healer]

Can we stop with the Dire Claw posting and start discussing real issues? MPL is around the corner and critters like Chien Pao and possibly Spectrier are still running around.

Inb4 they pull another "lets discuss those pokemons after the forum tour finish"


If requested I could write some paragraphs about Chien Pao, but I think it was already discussed to exhaustion and at this point everyone knows what it does and how it impacts the meta.
This mon could already be suspected pre pokemon home, now its the moment.

 

[wkxkevin]

Can we stop with the Dire Claw posting and start discussing real issues? MPL is around the corner and critters like Chien Pao and possibly Spectrier are still running around.

Inb4 they pull another "lets discuss those pokemons after the forum tour finish"


If requested I could write some paragraphs about Chien Pao, but I think it was already discussed to exhaustion and at this point everyone knows what it does and how it impacts the meta.
This mon could already be suspected pre pokemon home, now its the moment.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. Draining kiss on spec is so stupid. Especially when you run the bulky will-o-wisp set. Draining kiss and nasty plot legit covers 3 of spectrier's biggest weakness when running a bulky set: power, recovery, and dark types. nasty-plot is usually better than calm mind and draining kiss provides excellent recovery and murders a lot of dark types that would otherwise check this set.

The same goes for chien-pao. People kept getting mad because they wanted to use ice and without pao, ice would be pretty useless. However, that is not relevant when it comes to tier decision. If the mon is uncompetitive, remove it. Having an effective 177 base attack alongside 135 speed is very unreasonable. Ice shard often has the chance to revenge kill resists. Considering often this runs swords dance and or HDB, it's not easy to check at all.

I legit feel like those 2 should of gotten quick banned, unlike dire claw, which deserves a suspect. I genuinely am confused as to how spectrier only got 2 votes and how chien-pao wasn't even in the discussion. Ranting aside, I do believe we should get rid of those 2 before MPL starts to get going.