Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Aschmaros]

please choose another font color

Ah thank you for notifying me, I didn't notice the font color had changed because I always had Dark Mode on. It should be fixed now!

 

[Simon Science]

So, I know not everyone will agree with me here, but Maushold should be at the very least on your watchlist as a pokemon that may very well be ban worthy. Lets take into account the following facts:

Maushold has the ability technician, and learns the move population boom, a 20 base power (30 if you include the boost from technician) move that can hit 10 times, but can miss each time. This move has an accuracy of 90%, which means with the wide lens item its accuracy becomes 99%. Due to how damage calculations work, multiple attacks deal more damage then a single attack of the same sum of base power. So, population boom is in effect a move with more then 300 base power. Thats 50 more base power than explosion. And Maushold can spam this move. This is also before Terastalising, which Maushold gains the maximum attack boost from. With an attack this strong, it almost dosent matter that 75 isint a very good attack stat: its good enough to KO large chunks of the metagame, if you have any expirience with explosion mons you should know they dont need that much attack to hit hard, and this is hitting for more then that.

Maushold also learns the move tidy-up, which is, for all intents and purposes, dragon dance and defog in a single move. This means not only can maushold remove hazards, opposing screens and substitutes, it can setup for a sweep while doing so. If we then look at Maushold's speed tier, it is indeed, one speed faster then a gengar, 111. This allows it to outspeed large chunks of the metagame aswell, and makes it often trivial for maushold to create lose-lose situations for its opponents.

That is not to say counters dont exist- damage on contact abilities and ghost types, for example. But looking at the tiering philosophy, the three main criteria for a ban-able mon are: broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy. While I could see some people arguing Maushold is not broken, I would make an argument for it being unhealthy, but I think Uncompetitive would be the killing blow, if you take into account king's rock and flinch strategies. I dont think its healthy having a pokemon with this much power behind it , as I can allready feel the centralising force on my teambuilding from this thing- if it continiues to see any kind of use, and I suspect it will do if nothing concerning it changes- I cannot envision any teams- exept perhaps ghosts teams- not having to plan a specific *maushold counter*. This thing is too dangerous and causes too many problems, its not worth keeping.

-Simon

 

[Aschmaros]

Really? And what do you think Ghost should do against Dark, facing 4 Chinese Pokénon, Kingambit and a random Dark mon, without Aegislash and Tera dual stab boosting Dark moves? Just forfeit when encountering Dark? And Fairy needs Flutter Mane too, it's a good psychic coverage slot for it against poison, and fhost neutral coverage.

Well, the problem with Flutter Mane is that its not just its ability like I said, its pretty much everything about it, but let me address this. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the tiering philosophy in Monotype disregards how a certain Type performs if you ban one of its Pokemons, if its deem unhealthy to the tier right? "What do you think Ghost should do against Dark" I'm not sure. Thats not for my to figure out but the Ghost players, but this does remind me of some arguments people used in I believe Generation 5 for keeping Kyurem-White in the tier because Ice suffered without it despite Kyurem-White being unhealthy for the tier.

 

[ken]

I will text a bit different of what I see people do here, but let's go:

Normal: Maushold is a great Normal Pokémon at the moment, but just because King's Rock and Population Bomb, I mean, we all know that King's Rock is just available because we are in this pre tiering moment, like Baton Pass too, so I'm not going to say that King's Rock should be banned because, we all know that. Population Bomb is way too strong even without Kong's Rock, so this a good example of banning a move, no its user.

King's rock has already been mentioned as something that will be banned earlier in the thread and Baton Pass has traditionally been banned, so unless we manage to allow DryPass to exist, I imagine it will also go. As for population bomb, it's really not that great unless Maushold is running Wide Lens.

Water: Palafin-Hero is insanely powerful, and a strong candidate to be banned. Jet Punch hits hard, even without rain, and an awesome banded slot on a team, sweeping teams with little to no effort. This is a case of testing if we can handle it on Mono if we just ban Jet Punch, or if Palafin-Hero is still strong without if, because it can learn Aqua Jet too.

What you're suggesting is unlikely. You can make arguments to ban the Pokémon, but it's unlikely the move by itself would be banned.

Ghost: Houndstone's Last Respects is insane. I guess it will be banned even in OU, because there you can combo sands with it too, because it can has Sand Rush. Anyway, another example of banning its move, not the user.

The move was fixed and should now be working properly from what I've observed, so your designation as insane may be slightly premature.

Dark: Dark is, arguably, the best type right now. It has the chinese Pokémon at its disposal, boosting the team power to insane levels, it's hard to counter all of them, but Chien Pao is the great champion to be banned. It's a weavile++, hit hard, fast, halves your defense, has access to sucker punch, making it too hard to revenge kill, and in Ice teams, can have its defense boost by Snow. Terastalize in both types is deadly, making either attack you want on both types OHKO a lot of Pokémon in the meta. I would be glad to see all Chinese Pokémon banned, but Chien Pao is ridiculous.

Banning the perils to nerf dark would violate Monotype's tiering policies in that we do not favor a type via nerfs or buffs. You can make arguments for the specific mons about why they are unhealthy for the metagame, but try to follow the tiering policy for monotype here.

 

[Aschmaros]

Flutter Mane can be countered by a lot of things, and without its ability boost, becomes easier. Kyurem was unhealthy because it had bulk too, fairies didn't exist yet, and plenty of sets to use. Flutter Mane is frail, can be killed with special moves too, even neutral ones, and the most important, as I stated on my post: too weak against common priority moves, like Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch and Bullet Punch. I don't even need to mention Jet Punch right? Well, I used the example of countering Dark AND Poison for Fairy teams, but can be used against steel too, in some ways, with Mystical Fire, but, Bullet Punch OHKO it. Well, you want to ban it, then ban all paradox mons, because its only problem is its ability.

Did you read any of my post in full perchance? I quite literally said that the problem with Flutter Mane isn't just one thing (in your case, you think the problem is its ability), but a lot of things adding together that makes it too strong and too unpredictable until you see it come in. I do not think all paradox Pokemon should be banned. Nor do I think Booster Energy yet. I would like to see them played more to get a more concise opinion on rather or not I think those should be banned. I'm only arguing what I'm seeing, played with and played against, which is I think Flutter Mane is just completely unhealthy for this tier.
There are indeed some ways of dealing with Flutter Mane, but those are limited in my opinion because firstly it has a really good speed tier that you will find hard press to match, especially if it's boosting its speed via its ability unless you are running an equally fast Pokemon with Scarf. Personally, as I was using mostly Ice for this past day or two, I could usually deal with Flutter Mane by using Scarf Chien-Pao terastilizing and using Icicle Crash but not all types have this kind of easy out to Flutter Mane. It is indeed naturally weak to common priority moves like Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch and Bullet Punch. Keyword being naturally, with Terastilizing it can remove its weakness to some of those priority moves. Not all of them yes, but that feeds into my other point I mentioned in my post. It was a small mention, but I stated something along the lines of "I believe that Flutter Mane is harder to deal with on Fairy than on Ghost" the reason why is because Fairy can naturally cover its frailness easier than ghost with setting up easy eight turn Reflect and Light Screen. On Ghost, I've seen Flutter Mane works as a late/mid game sweeper, and could be potentially dealt with easier than on Fairy. Also, another point to the weak to common priority moves is that Flutter Mane isn't your only Pokemon in the team. You would just switch out, and switch it back in when the priority move user is out or down to allow it to continue doing what it does best unabated.

 

[mushamu]

Really? And what do you think Ghost should do against Dark, facing 4 Chinese Pokénon, Kingambit and a random Dark mon, without Aegislash and Tera dual stab boosting Dark moves? Just forfeit when encountering Dark? And Fairy needs Flutter Mane too, it's a good psychic coverage slot for it against poison, and fhost neutral coverage.

This is not a viable argument to keep Flutter Mane. Aside from the fact that Ghost can beat Dark without it thanks to other Pokemon like Annihilape and Mimikyu as well as Fairy not needing it, trying to keep a Pokemon because it balances a type matchup only causes the tier to become even more unbalanced as broken Pokemon are introduced to it. It's important to think about the overall state of Monotype if one Pokemon stays or leaves, rather than the viability of one or two specific types, in this case Ghost and Fairy. Marshadow was rightfully nuked from SM Monotype within a day despite making Ghost and Fighting more viable than ever because it turned the tier upside down. Flutter Mane blowing open any team that doesn't contain a Blissey is a pretty good argument to ban it and overall makes it one of the most broken Pokemon in the current tier.

Edit: Forgot to add this but Flutter Mane would still be absurd without Booster Energy

 

[mushamu]

This is a viable argument, indeed. There is lot more Pokémon worse to deal than Flutter Mane, and you want to ban it.

Other Pokemon being worse than Flutter Mane does not make Flutter Mane not banworthy.

Mimikyu is a joke, 2 gens trying to beat Dark with it and nobody does that, it's not even a good pokémon.

Mimikyu is a great Pokemon in a metagame where it's mainly offense. Being able to nab a kill with Play Rough against Dark every time as well as getting Drain Punch for Kingambit is definitely noteworthy; I'd even argue Mimikyu is a huge reason as to why Ghost can function nowadays.

Anihilape, dude? No speed, no priority, no bulk. Sure, it has a good attack and defiant, but it can't even move without taking damage first, that nearly always ohko it.

Choice Scarf Anihilape is good vs Dark and is overall one of, if not the best set. The only thing that revenge kills it is the Choice Scarf user, if Dark carries one, and that is revenge killed by Mimikyu. Alongside this, Dragapult is your friend when dealing with Dark. It's exceedingly fast and considering most Dark teams are offensive screens at the moment U-turn is extremely annoying to deal with.

It can be fine without Booster Energy pretty well, since it's frail and easy to deal. That's just my point of keeping Flutter Mane, but there are other threats, and no one is talking about them. The chinese Dark Pokémon are ridiculuous strong, all of them. But the Dark/Ice one is the cherry on top. It's unbearable. Palafin-Hero, and others... You guys will really keep these ones in favor to ban Flutter Mane? You just forgot how unbearable was with Urshifu-S last gen?

Flutter Mane still shits on the entire tier with something like Choice Specs, and Choice Scarf can target certain matchups extremely well. It makes virtually every game a sack war. Nobody is saying other Pokemon aren't broken, they're just arguing that Flutter Mane is busted as shit and should go. Whether or not Chi-yu, Chien Pao, Roaring Moon, Palafin, or Iron Valiant are broken is irrelevant. At the end of the day if a Pokemon is unhealthy for the tier, then it should be banned. It doesn't really matter whether or not Ghost vs Dark is manageable without Flutter Mane because it should not be a determining factor in Flutter Mane staying.

 

[wkxkevin]

This is a viable argument, indeed. There is lot more Pokémon worse to deal than Flutter Mane, and you want to ban it. Mimikyu is a joke, 2 gens trying to beat Dark with it and nobody does that, it's not even a good pokémon. Anihilape, dude? No speed, no priority, no bulk. Sure, it has a good attack and defiant, but it can't even move without taking damage first, that nearly always ohko it. It can be fine without Booster Energy pretty well, since it's frail and easy to deal. That's just my point of keeping Flutter Mane, but there are other threats, and no one is talking about them. The chinese Dark Pokémon are ridiculuous strong, all of them. But the Dark/Ice one is the cherry on top. It's unbearable. Palafin-Hero, and others... You guys will really keep these ones in favor to ban Flutter Mane? You just forgot how unbearable was with Urshifu-S last gen?

Uh since when can Anihilape use booster energy.

 

[wkxkevin]

Alright, after rambling on and on in showdown chat and getting flamed by ATTRIBUTE and roxiee, I decided to listen to their advice and actually try the new pokemon out myself. I legit tried every single type and played a few games with it. I will give my initial thoughts on them as well as a rating from 0 to 5.
0: legit trash
1: usable but niche
2: Ok
3: Good
4: Great
5: Broken
Basically, anything 3 or above is usable, 2 is good, and below is unusable.
(4): Great speed, great attack, good ability, good signature move, good hazards. Staple on both grass and dark
(4): Great typing, Great bulk, Signature move is strong ad, and access to recovery. Staple on both ghost and fire.
(3): Great offensive typing, needs speed boost from signature move to help it sweep, just a tad underwhelming. I like it a lot though. Decent for both water and fighting
(1): Cool ability, but bulk is not enough to feed the offense.
(3): SO much better than dunsparce, defo a good improvement. Boomburst is so nice, and it has good coverage. Great for normal
(0): LMAO(webs not saving it):
(4): Tinted lens + First Impression + Succer punch + Uturn(if you choose to run it): is awesome. Staple for both bug and dark
(2.5): Bad typing but has Revival blessing and decent bulk. pretty ok imo. a mon to have in the back of the head. Decent for psychic and bug.
(5): Ok, this one is weird. Fluffy is great but last last respect is BROKEN. Unlike OU, you can't have a sand stream pokemon to help you sweep so imo it's better to go fluffy. This is on the edge between balanced and broken because with fluffy, it actually has good bulk.
(3): Ok coverage, speed boost is amazing, oppotunist is good, uturn is nice, roost is bonus. Good for both psychic and flying.
(2): Good coverage, good spa and good hp but the speed/bulk is not enough.
(2): Great speed, decent move pool. 100 attack is like not enough for how shit the bulk it.
(2): That spdef holds it back a bit much.
(3): speed is mediocre but you have access to filet away which is just better shell smash. Fillet Away + sharpness + 102 attack is legit pretty nutty. However, IT"S SO FRAIL. as a result, loosing half of your health is not the best, but you can augment that with sitrus berry.
(5): Jet punch is unswitchable in rain and with barras in the back. The few resist often get mauled by the coverage. I legit 6-0 like so many teams with just this. Also, BU + drain punch is ****.
(2.5): it's ok, ability is cool but what intrigues me is strength sap. the def set is ok.
(2): ok, I know the hate gonna come in. I think this thing is a bit nice. 105 offense is cool. but spicy extract imo not worth it and 75 speed with 65/65/65 def is trash.
(3): Surprisingly decent. Chilling water is gr8. I think this could be prominent on electric.
(2): SG + 3 attack is ok but the movepool is noot good enough, and you're 4x weak to ground. Neither poison nor steel is gonna needs this.
(3): The only thing lacking is spdef but coil bp sets are quite nice. I like it a lot. I think this thing's value is mainly going to be gravity counter for steel. Other than that, it's ok.
(5): why run kings rock when wide lens almost guarantees you have 200 bp + technician move. Kings rock only has 65% flinch chance which is barely above serene grace air slash/iron head. This coupled with tidy up which also clears hazards and dragon dances at the same time makes this legit broken.
(3.5): slush rush sets are good. Period. It has the coverage, snow giving it defense allows sweeps. This is gonna be ice staple.
(4): This shit amazing. On dragon it helps curb ice move decently and on ice it completely nullifies fire moves. This is deo dragon and ice staple.
(3.5): rapid spin + nasty plot set are decent. Not much else to say. Underrated pick for water.
(4): shed tail is a strong af move. regenerator + slack off allows it to shed tail in the long run. Absolute must on normal imo/
(4): Iron Fist + 115 at + 105 spe + revival blessing + fake out = REALLY GOOD mon. I legit feel like every fighting and electric team must have this.
(2): SO UNDERWHELMING. Competitive is nice for anti defog but electric, flying and normal moves only is terrible. U turn and roost helps though. This pokemon was designed with non stab tera type in mind so idt it's gonna be good in mono other than if electric REALLY needs the flying type(no mold breaker eqs outside haxorus so rotom forms just better):.
(2.5): stealth rocker and knock off pokemon for flying, especially for move's limited distribution. However, stats are on the border of good. 102 is stlightly underwhelming. Almost there but just not there.
(1): LMAO, stats are so bad.
(3.5): REALLY nice offensive typing. Liquidation is great coverage. Scrappy is also great to help against ghost. However, I want to run SD but it's just not fast enough and I had to switch to scarf. Still nice though.
(2): dogshit typing and ABYSMAL spdef. However, it's ok as offensive option for rock.
(4): This shit amazing. 100/130/90 bulk is so good. 100 attack is not too shabby. Purifying salt though is what carries this pokemon. Absolute must for rock.
(4): Best hazard and hazard control pokemon for both rock and poison. Period. Nothing I need to say. Must for rock and poison
(3): I first thought this was trash but after trying the prankster support set with knock off, I changed my mind. It helps provide a fighting move switch once, which is nice because you can prankster parting shot away.
(3): NOICE. Fire immunity is great and it has decent coverage and stats. Not much else to say.
(3): It's good, I like it but dark currently has better options. Still, decent stats and coverage.
(2.5): spikes + strength sap. it has the move pool for defensive pokemon but the stats of offensive stats. kinda disappointing
(4): great typing, great signature move, busted ability. This is must on both steel and ghost.
(2.5): No, why must it have bad attack. It has everything else, god typing, great moves like knock off and gigaton hammer, decent speed, even sd. sigh. sd sets could work but need a lot of support.
(3.5): Great for both physic and fire. Specs set with arm cannon is gr8. Plus. Who doesn't want Fire Man(mega man): in pokemon.
(3): Similar to armarouge but I feel that skeledirge out classes it. Still sneak + weak armor + bitter blade is nice.
(3.5): Mycelium might + spore + knock off + rapid spin + filler + 120 spdef + 100 spe. Do I need to say more. The only bad thing is the defense and typing. But generally, ground has good defense stats.
(4): Why people talking about eviolite bisharp. This thing is amazing. Great bulk + good offense + great signature move + defiant. Staple for both dark and steel.
(3): Legit good. Water absorb is gr8 and it has tons of great support option. This is staple for poison and ground.
(3): ghost fighting offense and great, has good coverage, just has no bulk
(4): Ground + Fighting + rapid spin + lower offensive stat melm with higher speed. This shit amazing.
(2): Why run this over regular amoonguss. The typing is so much worse. Yes you have better bulk but why does that matter when uturn obliterates you.
(3.5): Decent typing, decent harzards, good spa, and nice offensive coverage. I like this. Probably a good mon for both electric and ground.
(2): I really thought this wood be good. I thought that great speed + insane bulk would make it amazing support. However, it's way too passive. Also, it has no recovery moves. 65/65 offenses are just too low and although it's great at setting up screens, that all there is. Just not enough.
(5): I don't think I need to elaborate. 135 in spa, spdef, and spe is broken. Booster energy makes outspeeding not really possible. I don't want to cause controversy so I'll let others debate.
(3): I don't know why, I never made it work. it's just too slow for a typing like this. Unlike buzzswole, it does not have the insane bulk to make it valuable. However, I'm not gonna doubt the first impression and the great coverage moves though.
(4): I legit won 90% of my games on dark with this thing ddancing and sweeping. The typing isn't great but it 's good enough to do what it needs to do. I think this is going to be required on dark and dragon.
(4): This is just excadrill on steroids. Bulky af, good speed too, and has rapid spin and excellent attack. It has ice coverage, it has knock off. I mean FFS, this is basically mandatory on steel and ground.
(2): No QD. WHY, GF why does this thing not have QD. This pokemon would be good with QD but it does not have it and the typing isn't the greatest either. Sadge.
(4): This is just electric fighting melm with lower defense. I would gladly trade the def for the most amazing stabs. Fake out seems good. I even started running volt switch on this shit for momentum. The only problem is wether it competes with pawnmot or whether we should put them both on electric and fighting. I personally think putting both is perfectly fine and very viable.
(3): This is juts hydreigon with better typing and much higher speed. I like it a lot on flying but I feel it can't find a niche on dark because there are so many other better mons. Still it's a great pokemon.
(3): This is ttar with slightly better typing. However, rock and electric both need help against ground moves so the addition of a 4x is not as worth it as I initially thought. However, 1 thing quite nice is that on electric, you can rid yourself of the shit rock typing and go pure electric while still getting stab. Overall it's good but not as good as it could be.
(3.5): The speed is insane with booster energy, which allows it to revenge kill so many mons. The only problem is that it doesn't have surf, which is a bit sad since hydropump misses quite a bit.
(4): This pokemon is one of the reason booster energy is imo a busted item. Swords dance + fighting move + knock off + spirit break is devastating. if you want you can try fitting sneak for priority but the sd 3 attack is the best. Honestly I think this is a must for both fairy and fighting.
(3): This pokemon could of worked as a defensive pokemon. It has good hazard setup and the ability cushions it's mediocre spdef. However, because of lack of recovery outisde leftovers, it's better as a bulky attacker and it's decent at that with ok coverage. It's still sad it has no knock off.
(5): This shit is so hard to wall. This is just weavile on steroids. HDB or band makes this borderline unstoppable. The ability also makes this thing broken.
(3.5): Ting-Lu with better bulk and leech seed. The typing is awful for defensive pokemon but the bulk and ability allows it to tank a few hits and leech helps it recover some health.
(4): Amazing typing, great spa coupled with decent defenses and 100 speed. This is a staple for both fire and dark, nothing else needs to be said.

So I will now address what I think are things that should be on watchlist:
1. : sand rush/fluffy + potential 300 bp move is pretty busted
2. : 160 attack + 60 bp priority + rain + BU/Scarf/Band is pretty busted
3. : technician + tidy up + 10*(20) bp move is pretty busted
4. : 135 spa + 135 spdef + 135 spe + booster energy is prety busted
5. : Good coverage + Sword of Ruin + 120 attack is pretty busted

For and , I think banning the moves population bomb and last respect is a better option than banning the pokemon

 

[TheWyvernKing]

All I can say, is that you should play Ghosts more. Because Dragapult U-Turn is sinply not killing anything and delivering a free kill against Dark, Anihilape is not even faster enough to be a scarfer, and Mimikyu isn't good at all. It can't kill Kingambit without SD, and if it's already busted, sucker punch kills it before moving.

Ok peace and love and all that, but I am the bad take police, and I have come to say that you have bad takes.

This is a viable argument, indeed. There is lot more Pokémon worse to deal than Flutter Mane, and you want to ban it. Mimikyu is a joke, 2 gens trying to beat Dark with it and nobody does that, it's not even a good pokémon. Anihilape, dude? No speed, no priority, no bulk. Sure, it has a good attack and defiant, but it can't even move without taking damage first, that nearly always ohko it. Flutter Mane can be fine without Booster Energy pretty well, since it's frail and easy to deal. That's just my point of keeping Flutter Mane, but there are other threats, and no one is talking about them. The chinese Dark Pokémon are ridiculuous strong, all of them. But the Dark/Ice one is the cherry on top. It's unbearable. Palafin-Hero, and others... You guys will really keep these ones in favor to ban Flutter Mane? You just forgot how unbearable was with Urshifu-S last gen?

First off, between Annihilape's 110/80/90 bulk, screens support in Sableye, bulk up, and drain punch. As well as the variety of other options that Annihilape has whether it be a lead, or yes a scarf, it's a solid pokemon that 100% helps the dark matchup. Nobody is saying "Ghost needs to be shit vs. dark either", we're saying mons that are unhealthy for the tier should be banned. This includes mons on dark as well. Ghost has alot more it can do this gen against Dark than previous gens. I'm a big fan of the bulk up set for Annihilape, which mostly suffers from Specs Iron Jugulis, but is more than capable of taking 2-3 mons off of Dark's side.
"Mimikyu isn't good at all" is an atrocious take also. 252 life orb Jolly Mimikyu have a chance to OHKO 252 hp Kingambit after 1 layer of spikes with drain punch. since it's ghost, you realistically would be running Drain Punch. Not to mention the solid spikes support options in mons such as brambleghast make such a scenario easy to put together.

Overall reading what you've said kinda show you've not been around in mono that long. You don't keep a pokemon in the tier if it's unhealthy because it can help one type. When type bans were tried out before Mono became an OM, just about every single Uber brought down to lift up a type got banned after it was recognized to not be helping the tier. Kyurem-W on ice, Shaymin-S on Grass, Genesect on Bug, etc. All of them were unhealthy for the tier, and despite the very dilemma you're bringing up of "oh it'll help the type", they were all banned because you can't have a cracked mon in the tier just to make 1 type not F tier. Which for the record, is not where Ghost is going after a Flutter Mane ban. It has TONS of options this gen, and will still be B-A tier. What you're defending right now is making Ghost have 0 bad matchups with a cookie cutter ghost team that's made 0 experimentation or adaptations to the tier. After the Flutter Mane ban there will still be plenty of wins in Ghost V Dark, it'll just be a bit more difficult as players figure out options and sets. Mimikyu for example has had sets with moves such as Will o/Curse in the past. It's like day 3, people recognized Day 1 that it was broke, the weak physical bulk hardly hinders it, and keeping it in the tier won't help the meta grow.

 

[Simon Science]

Alright, after rambling on and on in showdown chat and getting flamed by ATTRIBUTE and roxiee, I decided to listen to their advice and actually try the new pokemon out myself. I legit tried every single type and played a few games with it. I will give my initial thoughts on them as well as a rating from 0 to 5.
0: legit trash
1: usable but niche
2: Ok
3: Good
4: Great
5: Broken
Basically, anything 3 or above is usable, 2 is good, and below is unusable.
(4): Great speed, great attack, good ability, good signature move, good hazards. Staple on both grass and dark
(4): Great typing, Great bulk, Signature move is strong ad, and access to recovery. Staple on both ghost and fire.
(3): Great offensive typing, needs speed boost from signature move to help it sweep, just a tad underwhelming. I like it a lot though. Decent for both water and fighting
(1): Cool ability, but bulk is not enough to feed the offense.
(3): SO much better than dunsparce, defo a good improvement. Boomburst is so nice, and it has good coverage. Great for normal
(0): LMAO(webs not saving it):
(4): Tinted lens + First Impression + Succer punch + Uturn(if you choose to run it): is awesome. Staple for both bug and dark
(2.5): Bad typing but has Revival blessing and decent bulk. pretty ok imo. a mon to have in the back of the head. Decent for psychic and bug.
(5): Ok, this one is weird. Fluffy is great but last last respect is BROKEN. Unlike OU, you can't have a sand stream pokemon to help you sweep so imo it's better to go fluffy. This is on the edge between balanced and broken because with fluffy, it actually has good bulk.
(3): Ok coverage, speed boost is amazing, oppotunist is good, uturn is nice, roost is bonus. Good for both psychic and flying.
(2): Good coverage, good spa and good hp but the speed/bulk is not enough.
(2): Great speed, decent move pool. 100 attack is like not enough for how shit the bulk it.
(2): That spdef holds it back a bit much.
(4): speed is mediocre but you have access to filet away which is just better shell smash. Fillet Away + sharpness + 102 attack is legit pretty nutty. This is basically mandatory on water.
(5): Jet punch is unswitchable in rain and with barras in the back. The few resist often get mauled by the coverage. I legit 6-0 like so many teams with just this. Also, BU + drain punch is ****.
(2.5): it's ok, ability is cool but what intrigues me is strength sap. the def set is ok.
(2): ok, I know the hate gonna come in. I think this thing is a bit nice. 105 offense is cool. but spicy extract imo not worth it and 75 speed with 65/65/65 def is trash.
(3): Surprisingly decent. Chilling water is gr8. I think this could be prominent on electric.
(2): SG + 3 attack is ok but the movepool is noot good enough, and you're 4x weak to ground. Neither poison nor steel is gonna needs this.
(3): The only thing lacking is spdef but coil bp sets are quite nice. I like it a lot. I think this thing's value is mainly going to be gravity counter for steel. Other than that, it's ok.
(5): why run kings rock when wide lens almost guarantees you have 200 bp + technician move. Kings rock only has 65% flinch chance which is barely above serene grace air slash/iron head. This coupled with tidy up which also clears hazards and dragon dances at the same time makes this legit broken.
(3.5): slush rush sets are good. Period. It has the coverage, snow giving it defense allows sweeps. This is gonna be ice staple.
(4): This shit amazing. On dragon it helps curb ice move decently and on ice it completely nullifies fire moves. This is deo dragon and ice staple.
(3.5): rapid spin + nasty plot set are decent. Not much else to say. Underrated pick for water.
(4): shed tail is a strong af move. regenerator + slack off allows it to shed tail in the long run. Absolute must on normal imo/
(4): Iron Fist + 115 at + 105 spe + revival blessing + fake out = REALLY GOOD mon. I legit feel like every fighting and electric team must have this.
(2): SO UNDERWHELMING. Competitive is nice for anti defog but electric, flying and normal moves only is terrible. U turn and roost helps though. This pokemon was designed with non stab tera type in mind so idt it's gonna be good in mono other than if electric REALLY needs the flying type(no mold breaker eqs outside haxorus so rotom forms just better):.
(2.5): stealth rocker and knock off pokemon for flying, especially for move's limited distribution. However, stats are on the border of good. 102 is stlightly underwhelming. Almost there but just not there.
(1): LMAO, stats are so bad.
(3.5): REALLY nice offensive typing. Liquidation is great coverage. Scrappy is also great to help against ghost. However, I want to run SD but it's just not fast enough and I had to switch to scarf. Still nice though.
(2): dogshit typing and ABYSMAL spdef. However, it's ok as offensive option for rock.
(4): This shit amazing. 100/130/90 bulk is so good. 100 attack is not too shabby. Purifying salt though is what carries this pokemon. Absolute must for rock.
(4): Best hazard and hazard control pokemon for both rock and poison. Period. Nothing I need to say. Must for rock and poison
(3): I first thought this was trash but after trying the prankster support set with knock off, I changed my mind. It helps provide a fighting move switch once, which is nice because you can prankster parting shot away.
(3): NOICE. Fire immunity is great and it has decent coverage and stats. Not much else to say.
(3): It's good, I like it but dark currently has better options. Still, decent stats and coverage.
(2.5): spikes + strength sap. it has the move pool for defensive pokemon but the stats of offensive stats. kinda disappointing
(4): great typing, great signature move, busted ability. This is must on both steel and ghost.
(2.5): No, why must it have bad attack. It has everything else, god typing, great moves like knock off and gigaton hammer, decent speed, even sd. sigh. sd sets could work but need a lot of support.
(3.5): Great for both physic and fire. Specs set with arm cannon is gr8. Plus. Who doesn't want Fire Man(mega man): in pokemon.
(3): Similar to armarouge but I feel that skeledirge out classes it. Still sneak + weak armor + bitter blade is nice.
(3.5): Mycelium might + spore + knock off + rapid spin + filler + 120 spdef + 100 spe. Do I need to say more. The only bad thing is the defense and typing. But generally, ground has good defense stats.
(4): Why people talking about eviolite bisharp. This thing is amazing. Great bulk + good offense + great signature move + defiant. Staple for both dark and steel.
(3): Legit good. Water absorb is gr8 and it has tons of great support option. This is staple for poison and ground.
(3): ghost fighting offense and great, has good coverage, just has no bulk
(4): Ground + Fighting + rapid spin + lower offensive stat melm with higher speed. This shit amazing.
(2): Why run this over regular amoonguss. The typing is so much worse. Yes you have better bulk but why does that matter when uturn obliterates you.
(3.5): Decent typing, decent harzards, good spa, and nice offensive coverage. I like this. Probably a good mon for both electric and ground.
(2): I really thought this wood be good. I thought that great speed + insane bulk would make it amazing support. However, it's way too passive. Also, it has no recovery moves. 65/65 offenses are just too low and although it's great at setting up screens, that all there is. Just not enough.
(5): I don't think I need to elaborate. 135 in spa, spdef, and spe is broken. Booster energy makes outspeeding not really possible. I don't want to cause controversy so I'll let others debate.
(3): I don't know why, I never made it work. it's just too slow for a typing like this. Unlike buzzswole, it does not have the insane bulk to make it valuable. However, I'm not gonna doubt the first impression and the great coverage moves though.
(4): I legit won 90% of my games on dark with this thing ddancing and sweeping. The typing isn't great but it 's good enough to do what it needs to do. I think this is going to be required on dark and dragon.
(4): This is just excadrill on steroids. Bulky af, good speed too, and has rapid spin and excellent attack. It has ice coverage, it has knock off. I mean FFS, this is basically mandatory on steel and ground.
(2): No QD. WHY, GF why does this thing not have QD. This pokemon would be good with QD but it does not have it and the typing isn't the greatest either. Sadge.
(4): This is just electric fighting melm with lower defense. I would gladly trade the def for the most amazing stabs. Fake out seems good. I even started running volt switch on this shit for momentum. The only problem is wether it competes with pawnmot or whether we should put them both on electric and fighting. I personally think putting both is perfectly fine and very viable.
(3): This is juts hydreigon with better typing and much higher speed. I like it a lot on flying but I feel it can't find a niche on dark because there are so many other better mons. Still it's a great pokemon.
(3): This is ttar with slightly better typing. However, rock and electric both need help against ground moves so the addition of a 4x is not as worth it as I initially thought. However, 1 thing quite nice is that on electric, you can rid yourself of the shit rock typing and go pure electric while still getting stab. Overall it's good but not as good as it could be.
(3.5): The speed is insane with booster energy, which allows it to revenge kill so many mons. The only problem is that it doesn't have surf, which is a bit sad since hydropump misses quite a bit.
(4): This pokemon is one of the reason booster energy is imo a busted item. Swords dance + fighting move + knock off + spirit break is devastating. if you want you can try fitting sneak for priority but the sd 3 attack is the best. Honestly I think this is a must for both fairy and fighting.
(3): This pokemon could of worked as a defensive pokemon. It has good hazard setup and the ability cushions it's mediocre spdef. However, because of lack of recovery outisde leftovers, it's better as a bulky attacker and it's decent at that with ok coverage. It's still sad it has no knock off.
(5): This shit is so hard to wall. This is just weavile on steroids. HDB or band makes this borderline unstoppable. The ability also makes this thing broken.
(3.5): Ting-Lu with better bulk and leech seed. The typing is awful for defensive pokemon but the bulk and ability allows it to tank a few hits and leech helps it recover some health.
(4): Amazing typing, great spa coupled with decent defenses and 100 speed. This is a staple for both fire and dark, nothing else needs to be said.

So I will now address what I think are things that should be on watchlist:
1. : sand rush/fluffy + potential 300 bp move is pretty busted
2. : 160 attack + 60 bp priority + rain + BU/Scarf/Band is pretty busted
3. : technician + tidy up + 10*(20) bp move is pretty busted
4. : 135 spa + 135 spdef + 135 spe + booster energy is prety busted
5. : Good coverage + Sword of Ruin + 120 attack is pretty busted

For and , I think banning the moves population bomb and last respect is a better option than banning the pokemon

I dont have expirience with some of the mons you mentionned, but I do mostly agree with you. There are a few things I would like to ask about/note/change

(2) -> (2.5 or 3): I'm definetly biast here, but SG revavroom is a really nice addition to poison IMO. It helps releive the pressure off of Skuntank when it comes to psychic type moves. And it does have coverage, even though its hidden away in the usually useless moves: Assurance and bulldoze are kindof like physical, dark and ground hidden power, and whaddya know, dark and ground is some really nice coverage for poison. Other then that, terastalized adamant shift gear gunk shot hits incredibly hard. Also sure it is x4 weak to ground, but I dont think that alone would stop this seeing use.

(?): Yeah, no, your going to have to explain this one for me. For rock I get it, but I dont see how this helps poison *that* much. I mean, looking at it again, yeah its good, but I think poison might be able to teambuild withought it. I can definetly see an argument for it being (4) though. Also rock-poison, 4x weak to ground, but dosent help with psychic, oof.

(3) -> (3.5): This lil guy is amazing- Though I'd argue poison prefers running Unaware over water absorb, given poison allready has amoongus or dry skin toxicroak (dry skin toxicroak is probably off meta but still). I have heard that its seen use in OU with water absorb due to the dolphin, but otherwise yeah, great mon.

(4) -> (4.5 or 5): At least for as long as energy boost isn't banned, and even then I'm not sure this thing should stay (energy boost + acrobatics just makes dark laugh at fighting and bug teams). The main problem I see is that this thing has everything. Its got useable bulk, its got a very fast speed tier, its got good physical coverage, it has one of the highest non uber attack stats, it gets dragon dance. It really outclasses the competition and somehow stands out of the crowd of overpowered dark types, singlehandedly sweeping many teams. At least to me, it definitely feels like it belongs to ubers.

(2) ->(2.5): Better then Sallazle, nice offensive stats, hurricane, still underperforms somehow. Might get a surge in viability after the first wave of bans.

(3) -> (3.5): This thing is so. Damn. BULKY.

And thats it! Really good analysis though.

 

[Dragapult]

Really? And what do you think Ghost should do against Dark, facing 4 Chinese Pokénon, Kingambit and a random Dark mon, without Aegislash and Tera dual stab boosting Dark moves? Just forfeit when encountering Dark? And Fairy needs Flutter Mane too, it's a good psychic coverage slot for it against poison, and fhost neutral coverage.

The Treasures are not all spectacular. Let's stop being lazy here. The only two frequently seeing usage on Dark teams right now are Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu.

Ghost has always had a tough matchup against Dark. The onus is on the Ghost player to figure it out. Your complaint just reads as lacking understanding of how tiering works in Monotype.

If you're that concerned about Dark switch types or just get better: Pult and Mimikyu always given Ghost a route (however thin) in that matchup, and now you have new help in the forms of Annihilape and Weak Armor Ceruledge.

Unhealthy Ghosts are always among the first mons to get banned. Every gen. See: Aegislash, M-Sableye, M-Gengar, Marshadow, Spectrier in NatDexMono, Dragapult in NatdexMono. A mon like Flutter Mane was never going to stay long (we have more than enough precedent) so getting dependent on it in the formative stages of the metagame simply makes no sense whatsoever. No type is entitled to be good at the cost of the stability of the tier. Rest assured Flutter Mane is far from the only offender; they will be dealt with in time as they always are.

 

[Pabloaram]

Hi! Fighting Mono fan here
Gonna add a list of New and Returning Mon Pre Home and a bit of opinion in most of this.

New Mons:
Annihilape (Ghost) Cool Scarfer with access to Defiant and a good cleaner against Psychic- team
Iron Hands (Electric) Haryama's Paldean Cousin. Bulky mon with unique type to help in the Flying and Water matchup
Iron Valiant (Fairy) Probably gettin ban but strong nonetheless
Flamigo (Flying) N3 after Hawlucha and Gapdos. Scrappy help to diffenrent from "el luchador"
Great Tusk (Ground) Amazing stat and type. Bring hazzard and rapid spin to the team
Pawmot (Electic) Picachu-clone. Only good bc of Revival Blessing (pls ban)
Quaquaval (Water) Starter pokemon with Moxie to help clear with his new Aqua Step Move.
P Tauros (mono) New Tauros Form. Ok ish stat but MonoFighting need to bring other qualities
P Tauros-W (Water)
P Tauros-F (Fire)
Sliter Wing (Bug) Good revenge killer with Fist Impresion but not much.

Returning Mons:
Breeloom
Crabominable
Falinks
Gallade
Hariyama
Hawlucha
Heracross
Lucario
Medicham
Passimian
Toxicroak

Gonna try to build some team but outside of Iron Valiant and Great Tusk we didnt get too much buff this gen =(

 

[Fuyuki_Tokyn]

Pawmot (Electic) Picachu-clone. Only good bc of Revival Blessing (pls ban)

as a fighting user, i disagree a lot on this, pawmot is really good with priority mach punch doing a lot of damage specially if you run band, thunder punch can do a lot of damage in mono water too, it ohko's most stuff except for pex. the thing is that he's competing with iron hands in most teams and they fill different roles (that's why you can run both too) since iron hands can be a more reliable answer to mono water threads like palafin-hero and barraskewda, but pawmot really is not far even in this situation, i killed quite some barraskewdas with banded mach punch and he's just so good against dark, ohkoing many dark types with reflectif you tera-fighting

 

[Pabloaram]

as a fighting user, i disagree a lot on this, pawmot is really good with priority mach punch doing a lot of damage specially if you run band, thunder punch can do a lot of damage in mono water too, it ohko's most stuff except for pex. the thing is that he's competing with iron hands in most teams and they fill different roles (that's why you can run both too) since iron hands can be a more reliable answer to mono water threads like palafin-hero and barraskewda, but pawmot really is not far even in this situation, i killed quite some barraskewdas with banded mach punch and he's just so good against dark, ohkoing many dark types with reflectif you tera-fighting

i was using iron hands more but i see the mach punch utility. dark never gonna be a problem for a fighting team

 

[Kev]

Sorry for the delay everyone, haven't been able to login to Smogon for a month.

Without further ado, here is the first quick ban wave of SV Monotype:

1. Luck Items:

King's Rock, Bright Powder, Lax Incense, Quick Claw, Focus Band

2. Baton Pass

3. Abilities:

Moody, Shadow Tag

4. Damp Rock


----

These things are all obviously uncompetitive and have no place in the metagame, and Damp Rock is just historically broken. I know every one is impatiently waiting for some things to be banned, but we don't want to be too trigger happy. We will be gradually rolling out quick bans every few days or so depending on when we come to decisions. There's some very big things we are looking at but just want to get these nonsense elements out of the way. I'll try posting our or at least my watchlist in a few days.

Otherwise, hoping to see more relevant discussion about the meta, all constructive comments and replays help!

Tagging Kris to implement

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Can we be trigger happy about at least Flutter Mane and Roaring Moon :)

 

[ken]

What I'm watching for after the first ban wave (slight preference in ordering):

Obvious choice that doesn't really need much more explanation beyond its whopping SpA and Spe stats, good coverage, as well as the ability to see success with across a variety of sets including, but not limited to SpA/Spe Booster Energy, sub/calm mind, or specs. It can function as a sweeper late-game or if your opponent happens to be unlucky enough to allow you to get it boosted behind screens, sweep their entire team.

With Booster Energy and access to Dragon Dance, this is oppressively strong with broad coverage and bulk decent enough to take a hit (or few, especially with screens support).

Booster Energy: Manipulatable enough that not all boosts when paired with Protosynthesis or Quark Drive are predictable or necessarily healthy, with uneven distribution of accessibility across types to not just viable use but number of potential users that fit on the same team.

Fast, Sword of Ruin not just makes the 120 attack stat slightly more overbearing, but it also has double priority stab that, depending upon which type it may terastallize to, makes it even harder to deal with. Admittedly, I've seen this be less oppressive than the above 3 across a variety of skill levels in the constant tours I've hosted for the past ~3 days, but I imagine others may have a stronger opinion.

Personally, haven't even tried using it much. However, behind a substitute and with access to Nasty Plot, 135 SpA, an ability that debuffs an opponent's SpD, and potential screens support, I've seen this do some wild things and am interested to see where it ends up.

 

[wkxkevin]

Ok right now I feel like I need to address a crucial issue with the meta: Hazard control. Relative to the amount of hazard setters, there are way too few hazard removers. I understand why GF did this as they want to make the game more HO but honestly I feel like it has detracted me from the fun of playing mono. A lot of game I feel incapable of doing anything since there are just too many hazards on the field.

First let's list the pokemon with hazard control:

Rapid Spin/Mortal Spin/Tidy up: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Defog: , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

This gives us a total of 32 hazard removers in the entire game. Sorting for each type:
Normal: , , ,
Fire: , , ,
Fighting: , ,
Water: ,
Flying: , , , , , , , , , , ,
Grass: , , ,
Poison: (Yep just this dude, which is why I think it's mandatory for poison)
Electric:
Ground: , , ,
Psychic: :Oricorio-Pa
Rock: ,
Ice: , , ,
Bug: , ,
Dragon: , , ,
Ghost: , ,
Dark: None, YES NONE
Steel: , , ,
Fairy: None, YES NONE AGAIN

As you guys can tell, dark and fairy both do not have ANYTHING to remove hazards, electric and psychic's option is limited to oricorio which basically means you have no hazard remover(oricorio kinda sucks). In fact, if we review the unreleased pokemon for these 4 types, dark still has nothing, fairy still has nothing, psychic gets hisuian braviary and electric gets regieleki. Even types like water, and ghost have a bit of trouble because their hazard remover are offensive pokemon that don't have the speed like to pull off the hazard removal.

As a result, although many think that fairy, ghost, and dark are three strongest type, they can be heavily nerfed if (post quick bans) we start hazard spamming. Since we are not banning hazards, this gives a huge advantage to flying who is immune to all hazards outside SR, poison which is immune to t-spikes, steel because it's immune to t-spikes and resist SR, and fighting&ground for rocks resistance.

I don't know whether this is an issue that bothers people or whether people like this change, but for me, it made mono less fun because right now, hazard spam + priority seems like the best strategy which is lame af. Hopefully someone can change my mind.

 

[lavarina]

As a result, although many think that fairy, ghost, and dark are three strongest type, they can be heavily nerfed if (post quick bans) we start hazard spamming

While I do agree that hazard spamming has become a part of the meta (because i deadass use froslass as a spikes lead), to go as far as saying that they'll be heavily nerfed is sort of an exaggeration imo.

Fairy and Dark have Grimmsnarl and Klefki, the former packing Taunt while being immune to Taunt from other Prankster Pokémon as well. Klefki on the other hand is also hard to kill if you let it set screens, and it has Thunder Wave that's pretty much annoying as hell.

As for Ghost, well, sure Flutter Mane does big damage and losing it is quite a blow, but we can't ignore stuff like Annihape, Ceruledge, Mimikyu, and so many more. So even if hazard spamming is more prominent, that doesn't mean those three types would be heavily nerfed like you suggest them to be. They'll still function as usual, just without the absolute destruction power that is the potential bans.

 

[Mada]

Hazard control is for sure important in this gen but I do think that a good part of the types can deal with it,
Psychic and Fairy can ironically just run Hatterene
Water has a couple of option whereas Quaquaval really looks strong to me in this meta
Steel and Ground are probably some of the best Types for Hazard control and have many removals
Grass also has Toedscruel and Tsareena which may not be the most reliable removal but Rapid Spin can even be helpful in some situations due its good movepool and decent attack
Fire is basically the same with Torkoal
Poison really struggles but Glimmora can help + they still do well with Toxic Spikes and have other setters.
Normal and Dragon does struggle but both have a couple of answers altho Dragon has a major problem but this was also in last gen where people started running defensive Dnite
Electric suffers hazards a lot and yea there isn't much you can do without Dos / Washtom
Rock and Ice also can do quite well with Glimmora/Coalossal and Avalugg
Ghost and Dark don't have reliable removals but they are really offensive types and they have stronger setters such as Froslass / Ting-Lu themselves so they are the first typing setting up hazards and spamming sweepers / clicking the stab so I don't see the problem here.

At the end all types have some way to deal with hazards so I don't see it being too big of a problem, of course hazards are really important this gen and I think that types with best hazard control are also automatically the best types in the metagame.



Many people talked about this mon and it actually is really broken. At +1 Speed it is incredibly fast and 135 base Atk is just too broken as it can easily OHKO or clean up teams really easily, especially as both Fairy and Ghost have strong Spikes users. It could even run CM to boost itself against a Special mon as its really bulky on the special side, but it also doesn't need it and can run 4 moves as it has strong stabs + good coverage with tbolt/eball/power gem or even Psyshock. This thing definetely deserves a suspect test IMO if not a quickban.

Damp Rock being allowed seems just wrong, I am not sure if it's a ""misunderstanding"" or a problem such as Baton Pass/ Shadow Tag but this thing feels so strong. At a first sight i wasn't sure if this was going to be banworthy but after laddering and using Water this thing certainly is. Water is in my opinion a top tier type thanks to the setup sweepers such as Quaquaval or even Palafin and to a standard abuser such as Skewda that can jut ohko almost every mon in a x1 with a Band / +1 situation, without forgetting that all of those 3 can get really fast (Swift Swim, Aqua step, 60BP Priority) and they also have the capacity to use Tera on their Water stab to get super strong moves. That's also the Reason I think mons such as Palafin and Quaquaval are tremendous strong as FE Palafin has a 60bp Priority that can reach 180BP with Rain + Tera with a base 160Atk and this looks just tremendous, without counting that we can run Life Orb/Mystic Water/Band or Bulk Up sets. As for Quaquaval, that mon is just crazy as if it gets a kill (which he does easily in every matchup) he gets a +1 Spe and +1 Boost, While its speed is mediocre but at +2 he just becames overpowered and can even eat attack such as Moonblast from Timid Flutter Mane. Those 2 felt really strong and unhealthy but it might just be due the Damp Rock / Tera.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

For and , I think banning the moves population bomb and last respect is a better option than banning the pokemon

I'll agree on this, as far as banning what's unhealthy from the tier goes, I think it's pretty clear cut that what's unhealthy here are the moves Last Respect and Population Bomb and not the mons themselves. You could make an argument that Maushold with technician makes Population Bomb stronger, but seeing a 75 Base Attack mon catch OHKOs on any non resist that's not a physical wall is crazy. Last Respects is even more absurd imo. I know every council member was saying "too early to call it busted when it's coded wrong", but since day 1 I've been able to lategame sweep teams just by keeping Houndstone alive as the last mon which wouldn't even take advantage of the bugs in coding.

I would argue that there's already precedent similar to this as far as complex bans go, though so far they've been with abilities and not moves. When it's clear to recognize that the ability is broken, and not the mon itself, it's the ability that's banned. Sand Veil/Snow Cloak in Gen 5, Gen 8 Sand Veil/Slush Rush ban from PU, and Shadow Tag are all examples of this. In contrast, even though Blaziken was banned to Ubers in the past after getting Speed Boost, Speed Boost itself won't ever be getting banned since it's pretty clear cut from lower tier mons that the ability itself isn't what's broken.

Bringing this back to Houndstone/Moushold, you could give Last Respects to a variety of UR/F tier Mons and they would get instantly banned. If Klawf got it, the crab would be S tier if not banned, if Banette got it - even a scarf set would be able to start sweeping teams once 3-4 allies get KOd. Give Population Bomb to something with a decent attack, and even without technician it would be getting KOs on neutral with a wide lens to get 10 hits 90% of the time.

Especially after taking into account that Moushold brings to normal the rare gift this gen of hazard removal, I believe that in terms of what's healthiest to the tier, Moushold shouldn't be banned but Population Bomb should.

As far as Houndstone goes, I think banning the ghost dog instead of the move right now would be short sighted. We know that Basculegion learns Last Respects, and it makes no sense to me to set the precedent right now that every pokemon that gets this move should get banned instead of just banning the move itself. When Home Transfer comes and we get Last Respects spam from Adaptability Scarf Basculegion or Swift Swim Band Basculegion, perhaps it'll be more apparent that we should've banned the move to begin with.

The thing is, I bet Flutter Mane will be banned, and no Dark Chinese will, as well Palafin.

One last thing I'll say, I made a no Flutter Mane no Last Respects Ghost yesterday and won 2 roomtours with it. Even without them ghost has a solid matchup against the meta, though the dark matchup does get worse. I'd say Ghost has the upper hand in the Water and Fairy matchups for sure post Flutter Mane Ban, considering I was getting consistent wins vs. those 2 types from my use with it. Also I don't get where you're saying no Evil Peril will get banned or Palafin won't get banned, every other post talks about them. If anything they'd be a 2nd or 3rd banwave, if not in the first.

 

[Neko]

Hi, I've been trying out Fighting (and Dragon, Poison, and Steel) a fair bit due to my personal hype on Iron Valiant (such a good design tbh). The team (modified) is probably not that great yet, but I can probably make a few thoughts regarding some Pokemon in the metagame (+ an item)

This thing is just too broken, and can run a lot of sets to mess up with pretty much any type possible. With Booster Energy, Substitute + Calm Mind sets shred through a lot of types (noteworthy that Pult's Shadow Ball can't OHKO it + if Terastalized can actually win the trade vs a healthy Dragalge [Aside from it having Psyshock, which I never seen used, so], and Sub murks Sucker Punch too). Alternatively, Choice Scarf set would outrun everyone bar Dragapult and Icy Bundle, only speedtie-ing with Chien-Pao. Terastalizing defensively also helps lots, in Fairy this means you're not as vulnerable to Shadow Sneak, while Ghost means Bullet Punch (Scizor/Lucario) wont OHKO you while you blast these meanies back to where they came from.

Though I didn't really have that much problem with it due to Breloom doing Breloom things in the Water matchup + Toxicroak can come in on its Flip Turn (bewear of Zen Headbutt tho), I've been surprised by how strong it is when I swapped to a type without a Water immunity ;w;. Terastalized, it can do funny stuff with Banded Jet punch in rain. Damp Rock ban isnt implemented in the simulator yet so there's that.

Its Scarf Weavile but worse (by that I mean more broken). Due to the weird speedtiers we currently have right now, its pretty much the best late-game sweeper right now. SD + Ice Shard set may be a thing for Dark teams due to their access to screenies, but Ice has to run Scarf for now due to everything still threatening to break down their stuff (+Iron Bundle prefers to hold booster energy anyway)

The offensive presence of this mon is too scary, and with a +SpA + Agility set, it'll just mow down types without a decent resist to it.

Last respects is really scary but the mon itself isn't. Since there's a precedent for banning individual moves, I think Last Respects might be the broken part and not the doggo itself (its just quite bulky with Fluffy).

Its illegally bulky, but that's much appreciated by types such as Electric and Fighting. Nothing wrong with him, I'm just in awe on how bulky it is.

Might be too strong, but its mostly because booster energy, Imo

Booster energy is probably one of the reasons why so many Paradoxes (Iron Valiant, Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle in particular) are quite hard to stop. While you could say that its because these three are broken rather than the item itself, I think Valiant and Bundle might be fine (esp when HOME drops) without it. It would be nice if something could be done with the item rather than the mons first....

Terastalization is a fun mechanic, as aside from making CC's or whatever STAB you wanna use quite strong, it also has a defensive aspect to it. I stated the example on Flutter Mane above, but aside from that it makes select sweepers harder or trickier to revenge-kill. (or some Pokemon to become even more bulkier, like Iron Hands)

That aside, its funny how everything is either screens HO or Weather Offense or Hazard Stack offense. There seems to be just no walling [like, there are no walls either] these threats for now D:

Its also fun that Flying and Psychic are nowhere to be seen rn :>

 

[RTM]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1716790753
why is moody allowed? It is probably broken now as it has gained a user that isn't glalie.
(ignore the fact its low ladder I saw moody was allowed and made a team)

 

[ken]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1716790753
why is moody allowed? It is probably broken now as it has gained a user that isn't glalie.
(ignore the fact its low ladder I saw moody was allowed and made a team)

It was free at the beginning of the generation and included in the first wave of quickbans found here.

It'll be implemented on the sim soon-ish.