Other Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

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Kev

Part of the journey is the end
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Flutter Mane remains unbanned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-monotype-suspect-1-flutter-mane.3714066/post-9480116

In only a like 3 hours, and in the middle of the night for EST timezone at that - Flutter Mane already managed to get a Do Not Ban verdict with overwhelming numbers.

With that suspect out the way, feel free to discuss in the thread about your thoughts on the result - and bring up what you think should be looked into next (if anything) !
 
Evasion abilities should be banned (Sand Veil and Snow Cloak) along with the move Acupressure. Simply put, evasion is uncompetitive. As a player you have no way of accounting for possible dodges in weather, and this goes against our tiering policy. In fact it is explicitly listed that evasion is too much against the whole ‘probability management is a part of the game’ idea and it has been removed in tiering policy for being past that point, which holds true in monotype as well.

Acupressure is a move that can increase evasion at random, removing skill from the sequences and thus falls under the same tiering policy.

These bans should be implemented in prior generations as well where applicable.
 

ken

gm
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Monotype Leader
Mono SV Kickoff Tour
Week 1 | Week 2 | Week 3 | Week 4 | Week 5 | Semi-Finals & Finals

Doing it even though the tour ended last week, you can't stop me! Both Semi-Finals & Finals will be included in this post.

Semi-Finals Usage Stats

10 matches were played in Semi-Finals, resulting in 20 teams being used.

Type vs type win-rates (enjoy the screenshot of my spreadsheet since the ascii table is huge):

Screen Shot 2023-01-22 at 7.52.52 AM.png


Type usage & win-rates (included non-mirror win%):
Code:
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+------+---------------------+
|  Types   | Wins | Losses | Usage | Usage% | Win% | Win% (minus mirror) |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+------+---------------------+
| Bug      |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Dark     |    0 |      4 |     4 |  20.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Dragon   |    0 |      1 |     1 |   5.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Electric |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Fairy    |    3 |      1 |     4 |  20.00 |   75 |                  75 |
| Fighting |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Fire     |    0 |      1 |     1 |   5.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Flying   |    1 |      0 |     1 |   5.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Ghost    |    2 |      0 |     2 |  10.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Grass    |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Ground   |    2 |      0 |     2 |  10.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Ice      |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Normal   |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Poison   |    1 |      0 |     1 |   5.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Psychic  |    0 |      1 |     1 |   5.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Rock     |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Steel    |    0 |      1 |     1 |   5.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Water    |    1 |      1 |     2 |  10.00 |   50 |                  50 |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+------+---------------------+

Usage by type (sorted by usage% followed by win% followed by name, if there were ties):
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Chien-Pao    |   4 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Kingambit    |   3 |     75 |    0 |
|    3 | Meowscarada  |   3 |     75 |    0 |
|    4 | Roaring Moon |   3 |     75 |    0 |
|    5 | Grimmsnarl   |   2 |     50 |    0 |
|    6 | Lokix        |   2 |     50 |    0 |
|    7 | Ting-Lu      |   2 |     50 |    0 |
|    8 | Bisharp      |   1 |     25 |    0 |
|    9 | Iron Jugulis |   1 |     25 |    0 |
|   10 | Sableye      |   1 |     25 |    0 |
|   11 | Skuntank     |   1 |     25 |    0 |
|   12 | Tyranitar    |   1 |     25 |    0 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |  Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Baxcalibur |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Dragalge   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Dragapult  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Dragonite  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Garchomp   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Hydreigon  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Azumarill    |   4 |    100 |   75 |
|    2 | Flutter Mane |   4 |    100 |   75 |
|    3 | Hatterene    |   4 |    100 |   75 |
|    4 | Iron Valiant |   4 |    100 |   75 |
|    5 | Klefki       |   4 |    100 |   75 |
|    6 | Mimikyu      |   2 |     50 |   50 |
|    7 | Grimmsnarl   |   1 |     25 |  100 |
|    8 | Tinkaton     |   1 |     25 |  100 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |  Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Ceruledge  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Cinderace  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Iron Moth  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Scovillain |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Torkoal    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Volcarona  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Bombirdier   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Corviknight  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Dragonite    |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Gyarados     |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Iron Jugulis |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Kilowattrel  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Dragapult    |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Flutter Mane |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Gholdengo    |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Mimikyu      |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Brambleghast |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    6 | Froslass     |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    7 | Skeledirge   |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    8 | Spiritomb    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Clodsire     |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Garchomp     |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Great Tusk   |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Ting-Lu      |   2 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Iron Treads  |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    6 | Quagsire     |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    7 | Sandy Shocks |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    8 | Toedscruel   |   1 |     50 |  100 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |  Pokemon  | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Amoonguss |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Clodsire  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Glimmora  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Salazzle  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Skuntank  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Toxapex   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |  Pokemon  | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Bronzong  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Espathra  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Gallade   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Gardevoir |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Hatterene |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Indeedee  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+-----------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Corviknight |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Gholdengo   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Iron Treads |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Kingambit   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Klefki      |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Lucario     |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Gastrodon   |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    2 | Pelipper    |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    3 | Barraskewda |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    4 | Cloyster    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    5 | Quaquaval   |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    6 | Toxapex     |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    7 | Dondozo     |   1 |     50 |    0 |
|    8 | Floatzel    |   1 |     50 |    0 |
|    9 | Golduck     |   1 |     50 |    0 |
|   10 | Surskit     |   1 |     50 |    0 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+

Overall usage:
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flutter Mane       |    6 |  30.00% |  83.33% |
| 2    | Hatterene          |    5 |  25.00% |  60.00% |
| 2    | Klefki             |    5 |  25.00% |  60.00% |
| 4    | Mimikyu            |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 4    | Iron Valiant       |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 4    | Azumarill          |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 4    | Ting-Lu            |    4 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Kingambit          |    4 |  20.00% |   0.00% |
| 4    | Chien-Pao          |    4 |  20.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Clodsire           |    3 |  15.00% | 100.00% |
| 10   | Garchomp           |    3 |  15.00% |  66.67% |
| 10   | Dragapult          |    3 |  15.00% |  66.67% |
| 10   | Gholdengo          |    3 |  15.00% |  66.67% |
| 10   | Grimmsnarl         |    3 |  15.00% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Meowscarada        |    3 |  15.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Roaring Moon       |    3 |  15.00% |   0.00% |
| 17   | Great Tusk         |    2 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 17   | Toxapex            |    2 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 17   | Pelipper           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Gastrodon          |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Skuntank           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Iron Jugulis       |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Corviknight        |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Dragonite          |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Iron Treads        |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Lokix              |    2 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Sandy Shocks       |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Toedscruel         |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Barraskewda        |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Quaquaval          |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Cloyster           |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Brambleghast       |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Spiritomb          |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Bombirdier         |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Gyarados           |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Kilowattrel        |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Salazzle           |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Glimmora           |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Tinkaton           |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Froslass           |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Skeledirge         |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Quagsire           |    1 |   5.00% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Indeedee           |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Gardevoir          |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Gallade            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Bronzong           |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Espathra           |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Bisharp            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Tyranitar          |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Cinderace          |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Torkoal            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Scovillain         |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Volcarona          |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Iron Moth          |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Ceruledge          |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Dragalge           |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Baxcalibur         |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Hydreigon          |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Lucario            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Golduck            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Dondozo            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Floatzel           |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Surskit            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Sableye            |    1 |   5.00% |   0.00% |

Team combinations:
Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 4                                           | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Klefki / Iron Valiant / Hatterene / Flutter Mane      |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 1    | Klefki / Iron Valiant / Azumarill / Flutter Mane      |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 1    | Klefki / Iron Valiant / Hatterene / Azumarill         |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 1    | Klefki / Azumarill / Hatterene / Flutter Mane         |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 1    | Flutter Mane / Iron Valiant / Hatterene / Azumarill   |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 6    | Garchomp / Great Tusk / Clodsire / Ting-Lu            |    2 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 6    | Flutter Mane / Gholdengo / Mimikyu / Dragapult        |    2 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 6    | Flutter Mane / Iron Valiant / Klefki / Mimikyu        |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Flutter Mane / Iron Valiant / Hatterene / Mimikyu     |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Flutter Mane / Iron Valiant / Azumarill / Mimikyu     |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Klefki / Iron Valiant / Hatterene / Mimikyu           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Klefki / Iron Valiant / Azumarill / Mimikyu           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Hatterene / Iron Valiant / Azumarill / Mimikyu        |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Flutter Mane / Klefki / Hatterene / Mimikyu           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Flutter Mane / Azumarill / Klefki / Mimikyu           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Flutter Mane / Azumarill / Hatterene / Mimikyu        |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Klefki / Azumarill / Hatterene / Mimikyu              |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Grimmsnarl / Chien-Pao / Meowscarada / Roaring Moon   |    2 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 6    | Chien-Pao / Kingambit / Meowscarada / Roaring Moon    |    2 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 5                                                       | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Klefki / Iron Valiant / Flutter Mane / Azumarill / Hatterene      |    4 |  20.00% |  75.00% |
| 2    | Klefki / Mimikyu / Iron Valiant / Flutter Mane / Hatterene        |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Klefki / Mimikyu / Iron Valiant / Flutter Mane / Azumarill        |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Mimikyu / Iron Valiant / Flutter Mane / Azumarill / Hatterene     |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Klefki / Mimikyu / Iron Valiant / Azumarill / Hatterene           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Klefki / Mimikyu / Flutter Mane / Azumarill / Hatterene           |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |
Code:
+ ---- + ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 6                                                                  | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Klefki / Mimikyu / Iron Valiant / Flutter Mane / Azumarill / Hatterene       |    2 |  10.00% |  50.00% |


Finals Usage Stats

5 matches were played in Semi-Finals, resulting in 10 teams being used.

Type vs type win-rates (enjoy the screenshot of my spreadsheet since the ascii table is huge):

Screen Shot 2023-01-22 at 7.59.32 AM.png


Type usage & win-rates (included non-mirror win%):
Code:
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+------+---------------------+
|  Types   | Wins | Losses | Usage | Usage% | Win% | Win% (minus mirror) |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+------+---------------------+
| Bug      |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Dark     |    1 |      0 |     1 |  10.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Dragon   |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Electric |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Fairy    |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Fighting |    0 |      1 |     1 |  10.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Fire     |    1 |      0 |     1 |  10.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Flying   |    1 |      0 |     1 |  10.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Ghost    |    0 |      1 |     1 |  10.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Grass    |    0 |      1 |     1 |  10.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Ground   |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Ice      |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Normal   |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Poison   |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Psychic  |    1 |      0 |     1 |  10.00 |  100 |                 100 |
| Rock     |    0 |      1 |     1 |  10.00 |    0 |                   0 |
| Steel    |    0 |      0 |     0 |   0.00 |    - |                   - |
| Water    |    1 |      1 |     2 |  20.00 |   50 |                  50 |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+------+---------------------+

Usage by type (sorted by usage% followed by win% followed by name, if there were ties):
Code:
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Chien-Pao   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Hydreigon   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Meowscarada |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Sableye     |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Skuntank    |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Ting-Lu     |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Great Tusk   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Iron Hands   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Iron Valiant |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Primeape     |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Quaquaval    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Toxicroak    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |      Pokemon       | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Ceruledge          |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Iron Moth          |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Scovillain         |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Torkoal            |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Volcarona          |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+--------------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Bombirdier  |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Corviknight |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Dragonite   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Flamigo     |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Gyarados    |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Kilowattrel |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Brambleghast |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Dragapult    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Flutter Mane |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Gholdengo    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Mimikyu      |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Skeledirge   |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Amoonguss    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Brambleghast |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Breloom      |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Meowscarada  |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Rotom-Mow    |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Wo-Chien     |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+--------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Armarouge   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    2 | Espathra    |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    3 | Gallade     |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    4 | Hatterene   |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    5 | Indeedee    |   1 |    100 |  100 |
|    6 | Scream Tail |   1 |    100 |  100 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+---------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |    Pokemon    | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+---------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Coalossal     |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    2 | Garganacl     |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    3 | Glimmet       |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    4 | Glimmora      |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    5 | Lycanroc-Dusk |   1 |    100 |    0 |
|    6 | Tyranitar     |   1 |    100 |    0 |
+------+---------------+-----+--------+------+
Code:
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
| Rank |   Pokemon   | Use | Usage% | Win% |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+
|    1 | Quaquaval   |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    2 | Toxapex     |   2 |    100 |   50 |
|    3 | Barraskewda |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    4 | Cloyster    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    5 | Pelipper    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    6 | Quagsire    |   1 |     50 |  100 |
|    7 | Azumarill   |   1 |     50 |    0 |
|    8 | Clawitzer   |   1 |     50 |    0 |
|    9 | Gastrodon   |   1 |     50 |    0 |
|   10 | Rotom-Wash  |   1 |     50 |    0 |
+------+-------------+-----+--------+------+

Overall usage:
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Quaquaval          |    3 |  30.00% |  33.33% |
| 2    | Meowscarada        |    2 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Toxapex            |    2 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Brambleghast       |    2 |  20.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Ceruledge          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Iron Moth          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Torkoal            |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Volcarona          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Scovillain         |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Hydreigon          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Skuntank           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Ting-Lu            |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Chien-Pao          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Sableye            |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Scream Tail        |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Espathra           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Hatterene          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Armarouge          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Gallade            |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Indeedee           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Pelipper           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Barraskewda        |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Quagsire           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Cloyster           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Bombirdier         |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Corviknight        |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Gyarados           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Dragonite          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Flamigo            |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Kilowattrel        |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Flutter Mane       |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Gholdengo          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Skeledirge         |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Mimikyu            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Dragapult          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Tyranitar          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Lycanroc-Dusk      |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Glimmora           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Coalossal          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Garganacl          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Glimmet            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Gastrodon          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Clawitzer          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Azumarill          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Iron Hands         |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Primeape           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Iron Valiant       |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Great Tusk         |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Toxicroak          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Wo-Chien           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Amoonguss          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Breloom            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Rotom-Mow          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |

There were no team combinations >3 due to lack of repeating types (or archetypes on Water).


Bonus! Overall Type vs Type Stats

180 games were played (utilizing 360 teams)!

Screen Shot 2023-01-22 at 8.15.42 AM.png


Code:
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+-------------+---------------------+
|  Types   | Wins | Losses | Usage | Usage% |    Win%     | Win% (minus mirror) |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+-------------+---------------------+
| Bug      |    6 |      4 |    10 |   2.78 |          60 |                  60 |
| Dark     |   21 |     33 |    54 |  15.00 | 38.88888889 |                  38 |
| Dragon   |   10 |     16 |    26 |   7.22 | 38.46153846 |         38.46153846 |
| Electric |    5 |        |     5 |   1.39 |         100 |                 100 |
| Fairy    |   21 |     13 |    34 |   9.44 | 61.76470588 |                62.5 |
| Fighting |   14 |     15 |    29 |   8.06 | 48.27586207 |         48.27586207 |
| Fire     |   13 |     13 |    26 |   7.22 |          50 |                  50 |
| Flying   |   10 |        |    10 |   2.78 |         100 |                 100 |
| Ghost    |   20 |     24 |    44 |  12.22 | 45.45454545 |         44.44444444 |
| Grass    |    5 |      7 |    12 |   3.33 | 41.66666667 |                  40 |
| Ground   |   16 |     12 |    28 |   7.78 | 57.14285714 |         57.69230769 |
| Ice      |    9 |      8 |    17 |   4.72 | 52.94117647 |         54.54545455 |
| Normal   |    1 |      3 |     4 |   1.11 |          25 |                  25 |
| Poison   |    5 |      1 |     6 |   1.67 | 83.33333333 |         83.33333333 |
| Psychic  |    2 |      3 |     5 |   1.39 |          40 |                  40 |
| Rock     |    1 |      1 |     2 |   0.56 |          50 |                  50 |
| Steel    |    5 |     12 |    17 |   4.72 | 29.41176471 |         29.41176471 |
| Water    |   16 |     15 |    31 |   8.61 | 51.61290323 |         51.61290323 |
+----------+------+--------+-------+--------+-------------+---------------------+
 
Yeah flutter is almost 90% no ban vote. I'm on the fence about :Chien-Pao: but it's definitely more banworthy than :Flutter-Mane:

My overall opinion for Pao is that it's worse than Flutter. Part of Mush's arguments sound like ban fish discourse not too dissimilar to how Sub-CM Flutter was talked about, and I personally find to be exaggerations of it's performance and also a bit silly at times. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Pao go, and a Pao ban would definitely open up the tier a bit, though still not 100% convinced it's busted.

Also peace and love and all that y'all but I had never seen so many people complain about Pao until Mush said it was broken, y'all sheep for real that need to be able to talk for yourselves. I'd probs sit out a suspect for it cause it's a mon I'm definitely on the fence about, and ultimately wouldn't mind either way. Chien Pao I believe deserves next suspect and should've been suspected before Flutter.
 
Last edited:

WhiteQueen

the queen bee
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
Chien-pao is strong on dark (which is arguably the best type currently), but it’s needed on ice. Ice teams would be even more pathetic without the Chinese panther. Powerful for sure, but don’t think it’s all that overwhelming.

Perhaps it’s the kinda teams I normally use, but Flutter Mane has rarely presented a problem. Little gay ghost is fine as it is.
 

Giyu

Love is the most twisted curse of them all
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Chien-Pao's versatility deems it very difficult to scout. With a myriad of movesets like Swords Dance, Choice Band, and Choice Scarf, Chien-Pao is always going to be a bundle of surprises. Harboring coverage in Sacred Sword and Brick Break allows it to blow past Steel-types that should check it and priority options such as Ice Shard and Sucker Punch always keep you guessing. It has the same flexibility as Gholdengo but with a much higher Speed tier and better offensive ability. I'm in favor of seeing a suspect test.
 

TTK

Narmaya. That's it.
is a Community Contributor
Alright so we are past the Flutter Mane suspect (satisified with the results) and now I believe the playerbase should focus their attention onto a pokemon that is gaining more notoriety. Chien-Pao.

Before we begin just want to say smth regarding this.
TheWyvernKing said:
Also peace and love and all that y'all but I had never seen so many people complain about Pao until Mush said it was broken, y'all sheep for real that need to be able to talk for yourselves. I'd probs sit out a suspect for it cause it's a mon I'm definitely on the fence about, and ultimately wouldn't mind either way. Chien Pao I believe deserves next suspect and should've been suspected before Flutter.
I wouldn't even say people are complaining about Chien-Pao just because of mushamu, though they did make people aware of how strong the mon is, especially banded. Mushamu told me about banded pao, used it, was frankly a strong set and I used it to great success on suspect laddering. Now does mushamu slightly exaggerate that Chien-Pao is broken? Perhaps but it's definitely a mon that deserves a suspect and I'll explain why now.


:chien-pao:Why does Chien-Pao need a suspect test?:chien-pao:
Do not blame me for bringing up comparisons versus Flutter Mane, but as the latter got the suspect test and was seen by the majority of voters as not banworthy, Chien-Pao will tick similar boxes and even do things better than Flutter Mane does, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
  • Like Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao's speed is one of its biggest advantages. For a pokemon as offensively inclined as Chien-Pao, having Dragapult being the only viable mon faster than it is a very beneficial thing.
  • Points towards Flutter Mane came from its coverage options like Thunderbolt, Mystical Fire, Psyshock, Power Gem, Energy Ball etc. Chien-Pao doesn't need coverage to break most pokemon in the meta. All it ever needs is Crunch, Ice move and Sacred Sword/Brick Break. Chien-Pao also generally has less defensive answers than Flutter Mane does. Spdef Corviknight, Clodsire, Spdef Ting-Lu, Assault Vest Iron Hands, Spdef Treads were all varied and many answers to Flutter Mane. Of course you can say "oh spdef corv is 2hkod by specs tbolt, the same applies to Clodsire with Psyshock and Iron Hands and Ting-Lu are weak to STABs." HOWEVER, these mons were only afraid of Specs sets and you had to have the right coverage options, if you went tbolt + power gem, Clodsire forever walled you. If you went Energy Ball + Psyshock, something like spdef Treads still checked you well. If you were scarf, you lacked the breaking power and Sub CM led you to only running dual STABs, losing out on your coverage. Chien-Pao on the other hand...
  • The ability Sword of Ruin. Thanks to this ability, Chien-Pao is nowhere near as reliant on its choiced item compared to Flutter Mane, meaning you can fit Boots in most scenarios. Boots is obviously beneficial on Dark teams where lack of removal means rocks + 2/3 spikes means Chien-Pao comes in like twice.
  • I mentioned Chien-Pao has less defensive answers than Mane, which I believe to be accurate. The only consistent Chien-Pao checks are Forretress (Banded sets have a chance of 2hkoing with Crunch when you have Ting-Lu hazards up), Physdef Dondozo (probably the best non-banded check in the meta, you do not care about Pao at all) and Tauros-Fire and Water thanks to resisting dual-STABs plus Intimidate (even then, Psychic Fangs is always a possibility). Everything else that could be a good check like physdef Quag is 2hkod by Band, or SD breaks through something like Pex (which SD can do too). You play against Chien-Pao with any type and your defensive answers are probably getting 2hkod by the leopard.
  • Though there are only like 2 or 3 different Chien-Pao sets, not knowing the set for this pokemon is definitely more strenuous to deal with. Swapping out against Chien-Pao could result in a loss game if it's SD since at that point if there's no Dondozo, you'll have to sack like a third of your team to just beat it and late-game, that's essentially a win. Flutter Mane has not been at that level of power since Booster Energy was legal and Chien-Pao feels like this a lot of the time when I play and even use the pokemon. The snowball potential is too high

To round up my thoughts, Chien-Pao is for sure the number 1 candidate of deserving the suspect test. Fast, very hard to switch into due to its ability and there's limited defensive answers, faster threats/scarfers can be punished by priority if chipped or just being weak to Sucker/Ice Shard. The versatility of sets is also an issue with Band frankly making supposed switch-ins irrelevant and Swords Dance just having ridiculous calcs.

Thanks for reading, if you think Chien-Pao is fine, you can respond to this, intrigued to see thoughts on this mon.
 
I concur with the others. Chien Pao is WAAAAAAAY more broken than Flutter Mane. It’s pretty much mandatory to run Scarf Baxcaliber on Dragon or else you lose to the leopard. Flying and Grass also have a hard time with Chien Pao, with practically no switch-in to the Choice Band set. This thing is constricting as all hell to team build and play around. Definitely deserves a suspect.
 

Neko

When you live for love, how precious life can be
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributor
Ok, since Flutter Mane didnt work out so well, lets take a STAB on Chien Pao. :chien-pao:

Personally, if you think Flutter Mane is fine in mono, it follows that Chien Pao is also alright in Mono, due to the following reasons:
1.) Chien Pao only has 4 Moveslots, less if you run Swords Dance
Of course you can say "oh spdef corv is 2hkod by specs tbolt, the same applies to Clodsire with Psyshock and Iron Hands and Ting-Lu are weak to STABs." HOWEVER, these mons were only afraid of Specs sets and you had to have the right coverage options,
Without Sacred Sword, Kingambit takes on Chien Pao quite readily. Without Psychic Fangs, Toxapex sits on it. Without Swords Dance, Physically defensive walls such as Corviknight, Ting-Lu deal with it [Corv can even use this momentum to setup Iron Defense to brick Dark teams if needed]. Without a Choice Band, Quagsire sits on it and can punish incoming switch-ins with Toxic or litter the floor with Rocks. Without Sucker Punch, Scizor deals with a SD'ed Chien Pao, and without Ice Shard, Breloom, Choice Scarf Flamigo, and Choice Scarf Great Tusk eat it up. Because of the above statement, Chien Pao will always be walled or countered by something, similarly to Flutter Mane.

2.) Choiced Sets can be taken advantage of and are easier to wear down

Choice Band is certainly destructive, being able to 2HKO Pokemon like Corviknight, Ting-Lu, basically everyone I mentioned. However, its now weak to Rocks and cant counter the aforementioned Choice Scarf users I mentioned earlier which Dark teams hate facing. So, the response to a Choice Band Chien Pao would be to sack something and get in your scarfer or bulky Pokemon who isnt KO'ed by it, much like how you do it with Fluttermane. Its also worth noting that Dark has no access to entry hazard removal at all, not even Magic Bounce.

You play against Chien-Pao with any type and your defensive answers are probably getting 2hkod by the leopard.
Wait, isn't this familiar? Flutter Mane also 2HKO'ed its defensive answers if it had the correct move. In playing, you only have one team against the flutter mane's team, and you don't care if Fluttermane is walled by something like Dondozo if its currently smacking your Ground team with Psyshock/MystFire.

Oh, and Chien Pao isnt even strong enough to KO fluttermane, so yeah, think about how CB Weavile did the thingy last gen, its pmuch the same:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 201-237 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3.) A lot of revenge-killers arent weak to Chien-Pao's priority moves + There are indeed a lot of scarfers/priority/bulky mons right now.
Bug: :lokix: :scizor: :slither-wing: (First Impression beats Dark anyway)
Dark: :ting-lu: (takes one in a pinch):kingambit: (If it has no Sacred Sword) :lokix:
Dragon: :baxcalibur: :haxorus:
Electric: (Personally don't use it, but :iron-hands: is so thick so :D)
Fairy: :iron-valiant: (That now sometimes uses scarf) :azumarill: :tinkaton:
Fighting: (literally almost everyone)
Fire: :tauros-paldea: :torkoal: :cinderace: (This is also a bad matchup for dark)
Flying: :corviknight: (Defensively) / :flamigo: (Offensively)
Ghost: :flutter-mane: :mimikyu:/ :skeledirge: (If it locks in to Ice Shard to kill fluttermane) :gholdengo: (If no sucker punch)
Grass: :abomasnow::wo-chien: juleocesar
Ground: :quagsire: (Defensively) / :great-tusk: :iron-treads: (But Ground had a problem with Weavile last gen, too)
Ice: :chien-pao: (is scarf...)
Normal: :ditto: (but like, Normal isnt good)
Poison: :toxapex: (defensively) /:iron-moth: :glimmora:
Psychic: :gallade: (They have a weavile problem last gen too)
Rock: :garganacl: :lycanroc-dusk: (Accelerock)
Steel: :corviknight: (if not banded) / :scizor: (if no sucker punch)
Water: :quaquaval: :barraskewda: (now running Jolly for Fluttermane anyway)

To reiterate what was said in the flutter mane discussion, you dont need a defensive switchin for everything, so Chien Pao seems to be fine. Thank you for reading :blobnom:
 
Last edited:

TTK

Narmaya. That's it.
is a Community Contributor
Ok, since Flutter Mane didnt work out so well, lets take a STAB on Chien Pao. :chien-pao:

Personally, if you think Flutter Mane is fine in mono, it follows that Chien Pao is also alright in Mono, due to the following reasons:
1.) Chien Pao only has 4 Moveslots, less if you run Swords Dance


Without Sacred Sword, Kingambit takes on Chien Pao quite readily. Without Psychic Fangs, Toxapex sits on it. Without Swords Dance, Physically defensive walls such as Corviknight, Ting-Lu deal with it [Corv can even use this momentum to setup Iron Defense to brick Dark teams if needed]. Without a Choice Band, Quagsire sits on it and can punish incoming switch-ins with Toxic or litter the floor with Rocks. Without Sucker Punch, Scizor deals with a SD'ed Chien Pao, and without Ice Shard, Breloom, Choice Scarf Flamigo, and Choice Scarf Great Tusk eat it up. Because of the above statement, Chien Pao will always be walled or countered by something, similarly to Flutter Mane.

2.) Choiced Sets can be taken advantage of and are easier to wear down

Choice Band is certainly destructive, being able to 2HKO Pokemon like Corviknight, Ting-Lu, basically everyone I mentioned. However, its now weak to Rocks and cant counter the aforementioned Choice Scarf users I mentioned earlier which Dark teams hate facing. So, the response to a Choice Band Chien Pao would be to sack something and get in your scarfer or bulky Pokemon who isnt KO'ed by it, much like how you do it with Fluttermane. Its also worth noting that Dark has no access to entry hazard removal at all, not even Magic Bounce.



Wait, isn't this familiar? Flutter Mane also 2HKO'ed its defensive answers if it had the correct move. In playing, you only have one team against the flutter mane's team, and you don't care if Fluttermane is walled by something like Dondozo if its currently smacking your Ground team with Psyshock/MystFire.

Oh, and Chien Pao isnt even strong enough to KO fluttermane, so yeah, think about how CB Weavile did the thingy last gen, its pmuch the same:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 201-237 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3.) A lot of revenge-killers arent weak to Chien-Pao's priority moves + There are indeed a lot of scarfers/priority/bulky mons right now.
Bug: :lokix: :scizor: :slither-wing: (First Impression beats Dark anyway)
Dark: :ting-lu: (takes one in a pinch):kingambit: (If it has no Sacred Sword) :lokix:
Dragon: :baxcalibur: :haxorus:
Electric: (Personally don't use it, but :iron-hands: is so thick so :D)
Fairy: :iron-valiant: (That now sometimes uses scarf) :azumarill: :tinkaton: / :klefki:
Fighting: (literally almost everyone)
Fire: :tauros-paldea: :torkoal: :cinderace: (This is also a bad matchup for dark)
Flying: :corviknight: (Defensively) / :flamigo: (Offensively)
Ghost: :flutter-mane: :mimikyu:/ :skeledirge: (If it locks in to Ice Shard to kill fluttermane) :gholdengo: (If no sucker punch)
Grass: :abomasnow::wo-chien: juleocesar
Ground: :quagsire: (Defensively) / :great-tusk: :iron-treads: (But Ground had a problem with Weavile last gen, too)
Ice: :chien-pao: (is scarf...)
Normal: :ditto: (but like, Normal isnt good)
Poison: :toxapex: (defensively) /:iron-moth: :glimmora:
Psychic: :gallade: (They have a weavile problem last gen too)
Rock: :garganacl: :lycanroc-dusk: (Accelerock)
Steel: :corviknight: (if not banded) / :scizor: (if no sucker punch)
Water: :quaquaval: :barraskewda: (now running Jolly for Fluttermane anyway)

To reiterate what was said in the flutter mane discussion, you dont need a defensive switchin for everything, so Chien Pao seems to be fine. Thank you for reading :blobnom:
Okay, let's go over this one by one because yeah, a lot to counter here. Before I continue, let me just say that I am not straight-up saying to ban Chien-Pao, what I am advocating here is for sure a suspect test somewhere down the line. No clue what specific time HOME comes so maybe we do just sit and wait until then and see how Chien-Pao fares but it's best to address this pokemon as well since it's as controversial as the mon that just went through a suspect test where the vast majority voted DNB.

Without Sacred Sword, Kingambit takes on Chien Pao quite readily. Without Psychic Fangs, Toxapex sits on it. Without Swords Dance, Physically defensive walls such as Corviknight, Ting-Lu deal with it [Corv can even use this momentum to setup Iron Defense to brick Dark teams if needed]. Without a Choice Band, Quagsire sits on it and can punish incoming switch-ins with Toxic or litter the floor with Rocks. Without Sucker Punch, Scizor deals with a SD'ed Chien Pao, and without Ice Shard, Breloom, Choice Scarf Flamigo, and Choice Scarf Great Tusk eat it up. Because of the above statement, Chien Pao will always be walled or countered by something, similarly to Flutter Mane.
Now I did mention Psychic Fangs but most Chien-Pao users are still running Fighting coverage whether that be Sacred Sword or Brick Break because realistically while Tauros is annoying for both Dark and Ice teams, the better coverage Fighting offers compared to Psychic just leads to you running said Fighting moves and the usage stats show this so Kingambit is never really a consistent check for Chien-Pao ever really. Pex on the other hand does not "sit" on Chien-Pao. Band literally 2hkos after rocks with Crunch and Dark doesn't have the hardest time getting up hazards + the additional spikes which certain water teams will struggle to get off thanks to Sableye. Again, even if its not SD, band again breaks Corv and Ting-Lu quite efficiently. Where Flutter Mane comes into this equation, it's nowhere near the same level. Flutter Mane cannot double its special attack, Flutter Mane does not have priority. There are less consistent checks to Flutter Mane than Chien-Pao. Switch your Quagsire in on the Chien-Pao you have no idea what item it is and either you get 2hkod by Icicle Crash or you don't. Chien-Pao is not invincible and certain moves you do have to make a choice on, and take the consequences of e.g not running Sucker so Scizor is an offensive check, but it's just harder to play around for sure.

Oh, and Chien Pao isnt even strong enough to KO fluttermane, so yeah, think about how CB Weavile did the thingy last gen, its pmuch the same:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 201-237 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This calc also feels hella erroneous to me. Dark teams will always have hazards up against Ghost and Ghost struggles to take them off. Fairy also has no removal options and screens can be broken so a more realistic calc would be this:

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 201-237 (80 - 94.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not to mention Ice Shard is only 1 of 2 priority options Chien-Pao can run. The other one literally kills in most circumstances
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (no rocks on ice but even then it's in your favour)

The only points that I can take away from this is that Chien-Pao is in a roughly similar situation in terms of its offensive counterplay. It's prone to revenge killing from scarfers, weak to priority options like Bullet Punch Scizor, Mach Punch from Breloom and Pawmot and First Impression from Bug and Haxorus. It also has to worry about its vulnerability to rocks when not running boots, especially when its best type has no form of removal. What I want people to really think about is this mon really healthy in this metagame? No one is saying ban any mon that is hard to switch into. Chien-Pao just makes it exceedingly more difficult when you play around it hoping its boots but it turns out to be Choice Band or boots Chien-Pao isn't 4 attacks but SD and you have to sack 2 mons to make sure it doesn't win on the spot. The variance is just enough for me to think it's slightly over the edge. It's not Flutter Mane where Specs is frankly the only problematic set, every Chien-Pao is dangerous, no matter what moves it's running or what item it is whether that's Band, Boots, Sash or even Scarf.
 

Neko

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Pex on the other hand does not "sit" on Chien-Pao. Band literally 2hkos after rocks with Crunch and Dark doesn't have the hardest time getting up hazards + the additional spikes which certain water teams will struggle to get off thanks to Sableye.
Dark has no way to remove spikes either, and Poison has Glimmora to set these off [can also remove them + Poison has Tspikes too]. For water teams, Quaquaval deals with Chien Pao again, and is probably your best way to win the Dark matchup. If its banded (or SD Ice Shard), Scarf Iron Moth deals with this.

band again breaks Corv and Ting-Lu quite efficiently
Its not an OHKO, while Body Press KO'es the poor cat

There are less consistent checks to Flutter Mane than Chien-Pao. Switch your Quagsire in on the Chien-Pao you have no idea what item it is and either you get 2hkod by Icicle Crash or you don't.
I wont repeat what I just said earlier, but the specs flutt / SD Pao is just roughly the same. They both kill most of your defensive checks. Deal with it with your scarfers, priority as mentioned in 3.)

Not to mention Ice Shard is only 1 of 2 priority options Chien-Pao can run. The other one literally kills in most circumstances
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (no rocks on ice but even then it's in your favour)
Sucker Punch on the SD Set on Dark teams is suboptimal, considering you have kingambit anyway

This calc also feels hella erroneous to me. Dark teams will always have hazards up against Ghost and Ghost struggles to take them off. Fairy also has no removal options and screens can be broken so a more realistic calc would be this:
Flutter Mane itself can act as a pokemon that denies brick break, aside from hatterene bouncing off your hazards. Screens also exist in Fairy, giving Iron Valiant the opportunity to just go brr too, anyway.

Thankie for your reply :blobnom:
 
flutter mane is still pretty guaranteed to lose to priority / choice scarf, cm sets are revenged killed easily and specs has to choose the right move depending on mu w.e w.e but chien pao has access to very strong offensive stabs and sd, AND prio which means that choice scarf isnt that great as counterplay which makes it a step above flutter mane. a lot of the examples neko outlined had a lot of "ifs" and other little tidbit info to show how said type can counterplay chien pao while theres still remaining factors like being locked in or w.e, and its not like chien pao cant just...swap...on first impression or swap if sucker/shard doesnt kill whatever is trying to rk it
Sucker Punch on the SD Set on Dark teams is suboptimal, considering you have kingambit anyway
its still useful for Gallade, Scizor, Scarf Treads, and more. i don't see how its that sub optimal at all

also fwiw pex can't "sit" on chien pao, if you hard into sd and haze on crunch you can still get 2HKO'd depending on rolls so yeah theres still rng involved with even pex, psy fangs isnt mandatory and honestly pretty suboptimal on it if its just there to hit pex considering many other things on dark and ice take advantage of pex's passive presence this gen. if chi yu is to be quick banned and flutter mane suspected it doesnt make sense to assume that chien pao is also fine just cuz fmane didnt get banned
 

Neko

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I wont reply to any flutters now because clearly everyone thought it was healthy but:

its still useful for Gallade, Scizor, Scarf Treads, and more. i don't see how its that sub optimal at all
You lose out to most of the other Scarf users, while you can use Sableye to blank on Gallade, Scizor, and Scarf Treads. Also, switching out apparently wasnt a thing back in the flutt sus :)

Edit: Also, on scouting Pao's set, you can't tell me that you cant setup any hazards at all vs Dark?
 
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Don't wanna get too involved in this discussion but some bad takes from the ban chien pao side.
Pex on the other hand does not "sit" on Chien-Pao. Band literally 2hkos after rocks with Crunch and Dark doesn't have the hardest time getting up hazards + the additional spikes which certain water teams will struggle to get off thanks to Sableye. Again, even if its not SD, band again breaks Corv and Ting-Lu quite efficiently.
Jolly Band Chien Pao only has 12.5% chance to KO Baneful Bunker variants of Pex after rocks + 2 turns black sludge recovery (I see a decent amount on Poison), not to mention Eject Button variants get the recovery off while being able to scout the set and bring momentum into your favor. Not to mention that physically defensive Dondozo teams can relieve stress from Pex by consistently answering Pao. Water also tends to have some reasonable offensive counterplay to Dark, with Quaquaval being a prime threat. I'll also point out that from my perspective at least, considering how "monotype moments" tend to be put to the side, that Flying/Ground cores aren't as relevant to point out. Though also, Corv OHKOs with Body Press. Ground on the other hand is pretty much guaranteed to be Chien Pao playing with hazards up, as Ting Lu is prankster taunt immune and is able to live 1 band icicle crash.

Switch your Quagsire in on the Chien-Pao you have no idea what item it is and either you get 2hkod by Icicle Crash or you don't. Chien-Pao is not invincible and certain moves you do have to make a choice on, and take the consequences of e.g not running Sucker so Scizor is an offensive check, but it's just harder to play around for sure.
This in particular I find to be false. Though it's true Chien Pao has multiple sets and you can't tell from the screen what it is, you almost always can make a safe assumption on what set it is from switchin. Dark has no hazard removal, and if we're being honest with ourselves the first priority to playing dark is to get hazards up. Especially with Ground/Water which Quag are on, it's usually safe to assume Chien Pao will have some sort of entry hazard to switch into, and you usually know pretty reliably whether it's an SD set or not.

Anyhow, I agree Chien Pao isn't the healthiest mon, as I said before it's not a mon I mind getting banned and am on the fence whether it's the best decision. That being said, these arguments to me feel like putting Chien Pao in a void.
 
Unban Damp rock?

Reasons:
Rain took a pretty big hit from last gen to this one. there isnt a very good special attacker, best one being golduck, which is far worse than the monster that in kingdra, peli lost defog which was crucial to keeping hazards from ripping through a team, as rain tends to have a lot of switching in order to keep frail mons like Barra alive. webs can take the slower SSers from being effective, and rocks or spikes breaks sash which is useful if your name isnt floatzel. Aditionally, losing politoed means that weather wars are now much more up in the air and keeping a chokehold on the limited turns of rain provided is much more difficult than last gen. also poli was a good spdf pivot and could pack a punch as well.
Conclusion: water, and especially rain teams feel weaker than their competition in general and allowing damp rock could help regain some of their viability.
 
I second joe's claim Water has taken a hefty hit in terms of viability and banning damp rock in a gen where Barra and Golduck are the only viable swift swimmers seems like an unfair punishment as Water cannot viably run other forms of team comps.
 

Neko

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there isnt a very good special attacker
Gren coming in ~3 days

Water has taken a hefty hit in terms of viability and banning damp rock in a gen where Barra and Golduck are the only viable swift swimmers
you forgot :floatzel:

Also, considering that defensive cores are at an all time low now (and water resists are sparse), a Damp Rock unban means that Barraskewda/Floatzel just goes brr.

Water cannot viably run other forms of team comps
Rainless water with Dondozo is a thing, and is sometimes much more scarier than the standard fare of rain for slower team comps
 
water op, I don't think so. Dondozo is scary but wholely manageable except if you are a bad type to begin with.

Second dark being OP is guaranteed and likely will become S+ tier with ground in S and etc. My solution: ban chien-pao. Will ice take an absolute hit: yes, but I think beads and sword of ruin are both extremely unhealthy abilities.
 
I want to chime in on the Chien Pao discussion. There's no denying that Chien Pao is a metagame defining pokémon for Monotype (and OU) and one of the top reasons why dark is so prominent. I think Neko has given us plenty sightful information on ways to counter Chien Pao for each and every type - having those options in itself is sufficient for me to not consider it game breaking. I think Neko has also adequately explained the weakness Chien Pao has facing balanced cores: it gets worn down by hazards, poison, chip damage from checks, ... I think some of the counterarguments given were nitpicky and did not detract from the general message and statement provided by Neko.

General comment:

Certain people seem to argue that Chien Pao's ability to break balanced and off-stall cores warrants a ban. I find the opposite to be true, I find it healthy for the metagame. It stops balance and off-stall from reigning king/queen of the metagame and provides multiple playstyles for all players. Additionally, it forces balanced types sides to adapt and play more proactively. In some cases you will have to choose to sack a part of your defensive core in order to get the necessary chip damage to stop Chien Pao from taking over the entire game. That's perfectly fine to me.

Type specific comment:

Water: Water as a type has the largest fishing ponds of pokémons available. It's one of the biggest reasons why water has been metagame defining for years, wether it be as a top type or not. It has the ability to constantly re-invent itself, even when all other types think they have prepared for it. I specifically talk about this type as Toxapex, Quagsire, ... have all been named above. Just to give a few examples in relation to Chien pao:

- Azumarill has seen a slight rise in play for it's ability to help water take on Breloom, which starts running SD variants. Physical Azumarill also provides a good switchin to Chien Pao:

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 102-121 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 2.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (This is w/o leftovers too). Azumarill can retaliate with Draining Kiss to sustain itself.

- Rain cores + Quaquaval. Other ways for water to deal with Chien Pao is simply by outspeeding it. Scarf Quaquaval is a nuisance for Dark as a whole and Pelipper + Baraskewda is seen on a lot of bulky offensive/balance water teams.

Water will always find adequate tools to deal with metagame defining threats.
 
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