Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #6: La Luna Enamorada (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Suspect)

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maroon

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After the results of the survey, there were two main Pokemon everyone was unhappy with being Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Chien-Pao. Between the two Ursaluna-Bloodmoon saw a massive jump in peoples rating of it, so it was chosen as the suspect. This is because it has incredible physical bulk, a great ability in Mind's Eye that allows it to target Ghost-types with its signature attack Blood Moon, access to Calm Mind, recovery in Moonlight, and priority in Vacuum Wave. To give a good example of its bulk, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon can tank an Icicle Crash from Choice Band Chien-Pao, then retaliate and revenge kill it. This means it is incredibly difficult to reliably take out without a strong special attacker, which needs to be done before it has collected to many Calm Mind boosts. Moonlight allows it to easily tank attacks throughout the game, allowing it to easily setup whenever needed. Earth Power allows it to hit Steel-type Pokemon such as Gholdengo, while Vacuum Wave allows it to take out targets such as Kingambit and Chien-Pao, while just generally being good priority late-game.

That being said special attackers can easily dispose of Ursaluna-Bloodmoon as its special bulk is non-existent, of which pretty much every type has and commonly uses. However, these can be somewhat covered by its teammates in Blissey and Clodsire. Additionally, it does not appreciate dealing with hazards or status conditions especially Toxic, as its longevity is what allows it to stay around for a while. Anyways members of the council have been encouraged to give their thoughts on Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, and these can be found below.

Trichotomy said:
Though B-Ursa is a really strong nuke, it has inherent weaknesses like subpar typing, meddling speed, and atrocious special defense stat that make it susceptible to being taken advantage of on either type. That being said, there are incredible support options on both types to alleviate these weaknesses (i.e., Blissey, Clodsire), though they don’t necessarily make B-Ursa broken in and of itself. I personally think B-Ursa is not worthy of a ban but it is definitely hovering on the border of being unhealthy and so would like to leave it to community vote.
rs said:
Ursa is the definition of a broken Pokemon. Much like its physical counterpart, it's just a slow hard hitter. But there's big differences, for one Bloodmoon is a special attacker, has Mind's Eye, Calm Mind, Vacuum Wave, and Moonlight, giving it reliable recovery. This makes it harder to wear down, especially with it's natural bulk. The combination of bulk, set up potential, priority, lack of immune pokemon, and reliable recovery, its easy to see why this Pokemon should be suspected.
Floss said:
Ursaluna-B is one of the most powerful 'mons the new generation has introduced, with a combination of factors that make it difficult to manage. A high HP and Defense ensure that it is nearly unassailable from most physical attacks, and it can boost its paltry Special Defense with the dual-purpose Calm Mind. Access to reliable recovery, as well as a devastating spread of attacks to choose from (Blood Moon as a hammer to bludgeon teams, Earth Power and Hyper Voice as spammable STAB attacks, and Vacuum Wave to handle threats like Chien-Pao), ensure that it is a long-lasting threat in any game. All of these aspects made this 'mon worth suspecting to me.
Ken said:
An insanely strong wallbreaker, Ursaluna-B's signature move and base SpA coupled with its ability negating immunities gives it one of the strongest nuke button STAB moves in the game, but it's not a glass cannon. Despite its slow Speed, with respectable investment in bulk and sometimes a recovery move, it can quickly overwhelm games or at least apply pressure against a multitude of types by itself, which is made even easier by being supported quite well by what I personally think is one of the top two types atm - Ground, as well as the fact it also has access to a priority move in Vacuum Wave, sometimes easily revenge killing foes.
Cielau said:
Probably the best cm user of the tier atm, due to his physical bulk and his abilityy to heal himself, which it make it really hard to check. Access to a stab of 140 base power and the ability to touch ghost, let only steel/rock to don't be 2hko (or just ohko) both of them don't really likes take an earth power. Almost a perfect coverage where only steel/fly type can be consider as a decent check. Access to vaccum wave in some set, helps to make him also hard to revenge kill by ice/steel/dark type (hello chien pao). I think the suspect is explain by the difficulty to check the mon and how it's easy to win with him whatever happend during the game
Scarfire said:
Ursaluna Bloodmoon's power has been proven too much to handle for the metagame. Its wallbreaking power is very overbearing, its movepool and bulk allows it to function as both a setup sweeper or as an immediate wallbreaker. Vacuum wave is a frustrating edition that gives it the ability to snipe fast strong threats, and to top it all off it doesn't have any "required" item slot, so it has a lot of versatility in how people want to decide to run it. The metagame will breathe easier with it gone.
maroon said:
bloodmoons bulk does not match its damage output, being able to tank supereffective attacks like cb icicle crash from pao, then can revenge kill chien pao. additionally, it has access to cm+moonlight allowing to act as more than a one time sponge and can easily act as a nuke due to its signature move in blood moon (with setup). its other attacking moves in epower/vacuum wave can hit steel types for it etc allowing it to work around its otherwise natural resists/immunities with it having very few answers, usually requires you to use multiple pokemon to check it each time its entered the field. overall its overbearing in battle/builder and should go
Also Attribute and rs have decided to step down from the Monotype council, make sure to thank them for everything they have done for the tier!

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Ursaluna-Bloodmoon in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.

In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 9] Monotype ladder in which Ursaluna-Bloodmoon will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: UBMS6 in order for your account to qualify. Tagging dhelmise to implement this on the ladder!

Acceptable:
UBMS6 Maroon

Unacceptable:
Maroon UBMS6

The requirement for qualification is at least 82% GXE and at least 40 games played. The suspect test will last two weeks until Tuesday April 30th @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Ursaluna-Bloodmoon will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Ursaluna-Bloodmoon suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have. Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.
 
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maroon

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RMT & Mono Leader
Just a reminder (since yall did not remember last time). You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects. I will personally be strictly inforcing this rule, any posts violating this are subject to infraction!
 

Fraolain

PERFECTION SPORTS
is a Tiering Contributor
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon has been a staple since its introduction this gen with no surprise. Very good physical bulk, hard hitting, good coverage, plays an important role on both its type, is not bound to any specific set or item and can run a variety of sets that might be a bit hard to recognise by the opposing player solely based on team preview.

However, it can't be ignored that it also has some major drawbacks that balance out what would otherwise be a purely broken mon. Firstly, its special defense is not good at all, which leaves it weak to most special attackers. And while yes, this can be suppressed by the use of either clodsire/blissey, creating some sort of physdef-spdef core of mons, its typing is weak defensively and is of no substantial help towards ground or normal. Secondly, its signature move in itself, while very strong and threatening, is also somewhat exploitable, having only 8pp and not being able to hit it twice means that clicking it might not always put you in the best situation the next turn, forcing you to click epower/calm mind/moonlight/vacuum wave/switching when it might not have been the best move. This could lead to the next mon coming in profiting off this constantly true information (the most valuable kind of information) and possibly setting up, or let most flying types set up a free substitute on it, for example.

Overall, I think Ursaluna-BM is a very strong mon, but with exploitable weaknesses, that stops it from being too overwhelming or broken, and therefore does not deserve a ban as of now.
 
The way I see it, Ursaluna-b isn't broken in a vacuum. It has good neutral coverage thanks to Minds Eye ignoring ghost immunities for its normal STAB and fighting coverage but doesn't enjoy matching into bulky flying types thanks to only being able to attack every other turn with blood moon. It's also halted by non-grounded steels until it sets up several calm minds or hits focus blast. Basically all its sets are slow and bulky with leftovers, with the biggest variance being if it's running calm mind and/or moonlight in its set. Moonlight allows it to switch into physical threats without much worry and maintain its threatening presence all the way into late-game, but it can't snowball on its own. Calm mind on the other hand shores up its special frailty and boosts its ludicrous special damage even further, but takes time to get rolling. Moonlight and calm mind on the same set is very dangerous without an immediate offensive answer but suffers from only having blood moon/hyper voice and earth power as its typical attacks. All three sets are dealt with in roundabout the same way: immediately KO or scare Ursaluna-b out with a strong special attacker, though a Ursaluna-b at +2 is going to need multiple supereffective hits or a specially bulky phasing mon to get rid of.
Ursaluna-b with teammates is a different story. Clodsire and Blissey shore up its special weaknesses and can cripple a would-be check with toxic/thunder wave. Iron Treads, Landorus-T, Staraptor, Hisuian-Zoroark, and many other common mons on Ground and Normal give it opportunities to freely enter the field with volt switch or u-turn. Ditto and Sand Rush Excadrill are excellent at stopping setup sweepers who would otherwise keep Ursaluna-b off the field. A well-utilized Ursaluna-b will find multiple opportunities to come in each game and threaten an immediate sweep or breaking apart of the enemy team, all while it shrugs off damage from physical attacks and stealth rock.
Personally, I lean towards DNB thanks to Ursaluna-b's mediocre defensive typing, imperfect and predictable coverage, low speed, and bad special bulk weighing it down. But I recognize that it takes a high level of play to get the most out of Ursaluna-b and the qualified playerbase views it as more problematic than the general playerbase does, so I'll withhold judgement until I see the arguments from both sides. It's not like I'll be getting reqs this time anyways.
 
Hello, ladies and gentlemen! I kinda want to give my own two cents on why I think Bloodmoon is individually turbo broken and why I think the tier would be in a better state with this bear out of the way.

Everybody already stated Bloodmoon's qualities and I will not repeat myself about what makes this mon so good. In fact, I only want to pinpoint one specific argument that is popping out lately and maybe get a discussion going from there.

"It's Special Defense is weak, pathetic, fragile, non-existant and obsolete"

While we can agree that 65 isn't the greatest Special Defense of all time, we cannot forget that it is coupled with a very respectable 113 Base HP (which in most of the cases, will be EV'd to the max), which can make it survive some stuff you wouldn't think it could, like a Specs Luster Purge from Latios, for example:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Luster Purge vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 331-390 (78.6 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


And the fact stands that even this downside of the bear can be mitigated by correctly timing your Calm Minds.

So let's simulate a funny and hypothetical scenario!

Let's imagine a 1v1 situation of Ursaluna and one of the strongest special attackers of the tier, Enamorus (same Special Attack as Flutter Mane, so a reasonably good benchmark). Obviously, the Bloodmoon player could switch to Blissey or Clod, but let's imagine Enamorus moonblast the "specially defensive weak" mon as it starts calm minding.

252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 228-268 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That would leave Bloodmoon at worst at 36%, bumping to 42~43 with lefties, which leads us to:

252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 153-180 (36.3 - 42.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bloodmoon would be able to soak up the hit and moonlight its way back to over 50% and, in the long run and considering a situation with no hax involved, win the 1v1 against one of the strongest special attackers of the tier.

So, wrapping up:

Of course, there are loads of other arguments and other discussions that can be made about this mon and its impact in the overall meta, but I specifically wanted to pinpoint this specific argument. Sure, its Special Defense of 65 is kinda laughable, but when paired with a high base HP, moonlight, calm mind and good positioning, can potentially beat stuff it "technically" shouldn't. That is enough reasoning for me to ban it.
 

Pengairxan

D_RUNNIN
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I would like to chip in with one of the big common defense arguments you generally see for Ursaluna-B,
It can't hit Flying-types (And I Levitate mons as well) multiple times.
I don't think this is a good argument for three reasons.

1. It can just run HyperVoice (Or Moonblast if you decide to get a bit goofy). While this does give up a lot of power it does allow Ursaluna-B to hit Flying-types multiple times in a row so it is something. I am aware this is incredibly niche, currently only on the Calm Mind Normal Analysis, but this is something that in the future could see meta developments should Ursaluna-B remain in the tier and Flying become the dominate type yet again.

2. Several Flying-types don't have the bulk to handle it. Specially offensive Ursaluna-B, which is very popular on Ground, can easily score OKHOs without being boosted on several notable Flying and Levitating mons after rocks such as Rotom-W, Enamorus, Lando-I, Hydreigon, Latios are all OKHOed and even if they don't get OKHOed, most of them aren't taking a follow up Vaccum wave. And even those can like Gliscor and Articuno aren't going to wanting to be consistently taking Bloodmoons. And this is all calcing with Heavy-Duty Boots, as established by earlier in this thread, Bloodmoon can, and does, run multiple items, who is to say it isn't running Wise Glasses or even something more out there like Silk Scarf (Which has a 43.8% chance to OKHO specially defensive Gliscor after Stealth Rock) which adds more onto this list like Gliscor who we as a community, view as a bulky threat.

3. It has a team backing it up. Switch ins such as Clodsire and Blissey have been mentioned in the council post but I would like to talk about the offensive mons that are supporting Ursaluna-B that are not commonly considered broken that benefit immensely from just the threat of Ursaluna-B that can be used to get a physical monster in. Notably Ground which is the main type I believe we are all viewing this from has several A ranked mons that can threaten Flying-types, RockSlide Excadrill, Ice Spinner Great Tusk, Mamoswine, along with Landorus...
Landorus and its gravity support.
So now with gravity, what is the Ursaluna-B switch in, as Skarmory and Corviknight no longer can fufill this role. Yes this is 3 turns (4 if Lando is removed), but 3 turns can be all it needs to make a crucial pick that opens the game up for Ground.
And ignoring Ground, Zoroark-H, Terapagos, and Porygon2 also provide strong threats into Ursaluna-B switches with Zoroark's Flamethrowers and Terapagos/Porygon2's Thunderbolts scaring the Steels and Articuno that we rely to handle Ursaluna-B.

I also guess as a bonus 4 point. Not every type has a Flying-type/levitate threat that is common to see. Notably types like Dark, Fighting and Ghost all lack strong air support with only Hydreigon/Mandibuzz being viewed as good for Dark (at B and even then, their not all that common) and Fighting and Ghost having Flyings be a regular no show over other more popular threats. But thats a Gamefreak Issue, not us issue.

I'm hoping I've made this post solid, I haven't been too biased, and most importantly, I hope this can convice at least one, but preferrably more, members of team DNB to vote ban when the time comes.
And yeah, I'm team Ban. Did you really think I would enjoy a super bulky ground that lives a Sneasler Close Combat? Get that thing outta here.
 
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So, I was busy doing the request for the suspect, I already made my choice: I'll vote DO NOT BAN Ursaluna-BM!

As physically bulky as it is, it has quite the disadvantages. First of all its lackluster Sp. Def. let it be very vulnerable to Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Life Orb special attackers(even physical) such as Latios, Dragapult, Kyurem, Gholdengo, Greninga and many more. Here are some calculations:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 451-532 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 376-444 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 283-334 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 339-400 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Primarina Surf vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 338-398 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 313-369 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Normal/Ground , as much of a great duo-type as it is, Ursa-BM is weak to types such as Ice, Fighting, Grass and Water. Many popular types has something to revenge kill it(or at least wall it): Dragon(CS Latios/Dragapult, Kyurem), Dark(Greninja, Meowscarada, Chien-pao), Fairy(Iron Valiant, Flutter Mane, Azumarill, Primarina), Flying(Articuno, Corviknight and maybe Enamorus/Gyarados/ID+BP Skarmory or SpDef invested Gliscor), Water(Every damn pokemon in the team!), Ground having Mamoswine and Steel(IDBP Skarmory, 'Air baloon Heatran and Gholdengo' => special attackers). One thing that people point out is that vacuum wave on thios thing is busted. It brings some damage, but not something that outright kills. For example:
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 132-156 (45 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 146-174 (51.2 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 148-176 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 108-128 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Not to mention that is a 40BP FIGHTING Sp. move, meainimng that Ursa-BM has no STAB on this move and it makes little damage to fairy/bug/psychic pokemon. Another topic is its signatue attack: "Blood Moon". There is something people tend to forget: the power does'nt mean much if the pokemon is slow/-er (than most of the pokemon). Therefore meaning that even if a 140BP is nasty, it is not impossible to prevent/avoid it. Ursa-BM has 52 Speed and that is detrimental. Many Pokemon outspeed AND have a chance to kill it. Just like everybody said, Ursa-BM is physikally bulky, but that does'nt mean that is a phisical chansey with 135Sp. Att., Ogerpon-W and Hearthflare can kill this thing with their respective STAB moves Ivy Cudgel-Water or even maybe Fire wit sun and Power Whip/Horn Leach, Archaludon/Skarmory with big boosted Body Press, Meowscarada with Flower Trick, Iron Valiant with Life Orb Close Combat, Mamoswine with Icicle Crash and Ceruledge with 2+ Bitter Blade in the sun. For last, but not least we its recovery. Due again to its lackluster speed, it has'nt that much chances to recovery and has to wait to have a matchup against a slower pokemon to recover, which may be a good move, but losing a turn to recover can be a problem.
Ursa-BM struggles with special attackers AND physical attackers after all.
At the end of the day I don't find Ursaluna-BM not broken at all and it has counters for every type. I hope I can convince enough people to vote DO NOT BAN, because this thing doesn't deserve to go!
 
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One thing that people point out is that vacuum wave on thios thing is busted. It brings some damage, but not something that outright kills. For example:
It's actually the opposite. Vacuum Wave is run almost entirely for Pao the way I see it, the ideal set would be more along the lines of CM/Hyper Voice/MoonLight/Earth Power. I will also point out that not only is a band or specs required on every mon you listed in order to 1v1 Ursa, but in the case of Greninja for example - that's a mon which would actively lose the 1v1 if Ursa is already at +1. If, in this hypothetical Greninja comes in and Ursa is healthy at +1, specs Greninja doesn't KO the common set. Adamant Band Mamo and Band Meow have ~50% rolls to ohko, and bulkier Ursa spreads aren't unheard of either which would be able to live in both of these situations.


It can just run HyperVoice (Or Moonblast if you decide to get a bit goofy). While this does give up a lot of power it does allow Ursaluna-B to hit Flying-types multiple times in a row so it is something. I am aware this is incredibly niche,
Hyper Voice is not just a niche set I'll add to your point, even though Bloodmoon is incredible for wallbreaking, Hyper Voice is pretty instrumental for handling mons such as Gliscor.

Still think there are problems with how Council handled this suspect and current precedent. Ursa BM going would defs lead to a better meta but as of right now I'm a DNB, realistically I'll probs just get reqs then wait for the vote to end before casting my ballot.
 

Pengairxan

D_RUNNIN
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
So, I was busy doing the request for the suspect, I already made my choice: I'll vote DO NOT BAN Ursaluna-BM!

As physically bulky as it is, it has quite the disadvantages. First of all its lackluster Sp. Def. let it be very vulnerable to Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Life Orb special attackers(even physical) such as Latios, Dragapult, Kyurem, Gholdengo, Greninga and many more. Here are some calculations:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 451-532 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 376-444 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 283-334 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 339-400 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Primarina Surf vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 338-398 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 313-369 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Normal/Ground , as much of a great duo-type as it is, Ursa-BM is weak to types such as Ice, Fighting, Grass and Water. Many popular types has something to revenge kill it(or at least wall it): Dragon(CS Latios/Dragapult, Kyurem), Dark(Greninja, Meowscarada, Chien-pao), Fairy(Iron Valiant, Flutter Mane, Azumarill, Primarina), Flying(Articuno, Corviknight and maybe Enamorus/Gyarados/ID+BP Skarmory or SpDef invested Gliscor), Water(Every damn pokemon in the team!), Ground having Mamoswine and Steel(IDBP Skarmory, 'Air baloon Heatran and Gholdengo' => special attackers). One thing that people point out is that vacuum wave on thios thing is busted. It brings some damage, but not something that outright kills. For example:
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 132-156 (45 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 146-174 (51.2 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 148-176 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 108-128 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Not to mention that is a 40BP FIGHTING Sp. move, meainimng that Ursa-BM has no STAB on this move and it makes little damage to fairy/bug/psychic pokemon. Another topic is its signatue attack: "Blood Moon". There is something people tend to forget: the power does'nt mean much if the pokemon is slow/-er (than most of the pokemon). Therefore meaning that even if a 140BP is nasty, it is not impossible to prevent/avoid it. Ursa-BM has 52 Speed and that is detrimental. Many Pokemon outspeed AND have a chance to kill it. Just like everybody said, Ursa-BM is physikally bulky, but that does'nt mean that is a phisical chansey with 135Sp. Att., Ogerpon-W and Hearthflare can kill this thing with their respective STAB moves Ivy Cudgel-Water or even maybe Fire wit sun and Power Whip/Horn Leach, Archaludon/Skarmory with big boosted Body Press, Meowscarada with Flower Trick, Iron Valiant with Life Orb Close Combat, Mamoswine with Icicle Crash and Ceruledge with 2+ Bitter Blade in the sun. For last, but not least we its recovery. Due again to its lackluster speed, it has'nt that much chances to recovery and has to wait to have a matchup against a slower pokemon to recover, which may be a good move, but losing a turn to recover can be a problem.
Ursa-BM struggles with special attackers AND physical attackers after all.
At the end of the day I don't find Ursaluna-BM not broken at all and it has counters for every type. I hope I can convince enough people to vote DO NOT BAN, because this thing doesn't deserve to go!
I don't think this is a good argument for why Ursaluna-B should remain legal in the tier and I'm probably just gonna go through and pick out all the BS in defense of BM.
As physically bulky as it is, it has quite the disadvantages. First of all its lackluster Sp. Def. let it be very vulnerable to Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Life Orb special attackers(even physical) such as Latios, Dragapult, Kyurem, Gholdengo, Greninga and many more. Here are some calculations:
Yes, it has a weak special defense but not only can it raise this special defense it also has a naturally high base HP which can somewhat offset a low base Sp.Def (as argued by Leafium) And a fair few of these Calcs are relying on 2HKOs on mons that really want to be landing OKHOs.
Notably, Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, and Dragapult die afterwards so they need their special hit to kill. And it doesn't help that all of these are sponged somewhat comfortably by Clodsire who is also common on Ground.
Ursaluna-B can also just, invest more into its HP or SpD, using your Dragapult Draco Calc for example, I could go 184 HP, 216+ SpA and 52 SpD and I still get the OKHO Pult while never dying to Draco.
One thing that people point out is that vacuum wave on thios thing is busted. It brings some damage, but not something that outright kills. For example:
As pointed out by Wyvern, Vacuum wave's main utility is to check Chien-Pao, another mon people consider problematic. If Chien-Pao was to be removed then Vacuum wave would likely be dropped for Calm Mind overall. And even then Vacuum wave's main job isn't to claim kills on full health targets, its to clean up against faster targets that barely hung on. For Example, Flutter Mane might of lived a Bloodmoon but there are rolls where it dies to a follow up Vacuum wave, espessically after Stealth Rock which Ground can get up easily against Ghost (and Fairy if Clod is running Rocks because Hatt don't like Pjab). And the same is true for many other targets, you might be able to live a Bloodmoon if barely, but can you survive the Vacuum in response?
Ursa-BM has 52 Speed and that is detrimental.
Just because a mon is slow doesn't mean it isn't threatening. Look at slow threats that are well, threats throughout this generation. There is stuff like Kingambit (A mon you yourself said needs to go), Iron Hands, Azumaril, Hatterene. These are all mons that do not break 200 Speed without major investment but I would argue are major slow threats that types do have to consider when team building. Yes Bloodmoon would like more speed but when trying to wall edrdicate, your not competiting with Dragapult, your competing with Toxapex. And Spoiler alert, Toxapex doesn't run speed.
Many Pokemon outspeed AND have a chance to kill it. Just like everybody said, Ursa-BM is physikally bulky, but that does'nt mean that is a phisical chansey
A lot of the checks listed here are more on the fringe side and have to compete/break other mons as well. Just going through the list
Ceruledge's bitter blade needs Torkoal/Ninetales to win a weather war against a Ground team and doesn't exist on Ghost. Loses to Hippo
Meowscarada Flower Trick just doesn't kill, it does less than 75%. Loses to Exca as well.
Banded Mamo Icicle Crash is a roll in Mamo's favor, yes but it can also miss or not get the kill/flinch. Hello Exca and Great Tusk
The Oger's need to be at +2 before hand and both die to Bloodmoon into Vacuum wave. And while they can also be Power Whip, that is less common in Monotype than in OU/Ubers and comes with the accuracy downside and still isn't an OKHO 50% of the time. Clodsire can somewhat handle Oger-W, not amazingly but its better than nothing and Oger-H is weak to Stealth Rock weak and Sand can allow for Exca to remove with Rock Slide or Scarf Tusk can Headlong Rush.
Arcahludon does less than 50%, to OKHO Bloodmoon you need to be hit 3 times minimum. You, a mon weak to Ground need to be hit 3 times in the Ground Matchup, I wish you luck.
Skarmory fears Lando-I just clicking Gravity on it and and has an issue with Haze Clodsire (And if its Normal, hello Zoro-H, fancy seeing you here)

And all of these have one thing in common, they are boosted by an item or setup. You won't always be able to SD safely, or you may get tricked/knocked off on something. And for threats that are regular not boosted like Great Tusk, Heavy Duty Boots Iron Valiant, and Sneasler, they aren't getting an OKHO.

I also believe saying a mon can be OKHOed by threats doesn't make it less problematic to when it comes in on something that doesn't OKHO it, using the previously banned Baxcalibur as an example, just because most Fighting-types could OKHO since it was regularly not boosting it speed didn't make it reasonable when it didn't come in on them, it came in on threats that it could abuse like Gliscor or Galarian Weezing that weren't packing Toxic. And thats when Bloodmoon finds its safest point to jump in, not on the Flutter Mane's and Greninjas but on the Klefkis and Swamperts of the tier.
 
"pick out all the BS"

"And Spoiler alert, Toxapex doesn't run speed."
Hello Mono, another suspect and some great insights to help learn about the game.

Please don't be rude Peng, I understand that bm affects Poison players a lot. Maybe I can provide some of the normal perspective to build the discussion.

To start, there is only one Pokémon that is banned from Mono that has less than base 52 speed and it has nearly 700 stats. Priority does appear to have been a problem in mono, but not sure bms vw can compare to the stab sucker that was highlighted with the Urshifu ban and shows up with Gambit.

While my normal team has a lot of room for improvement, and I appreciate feedback I get and actually follow on actions provided, but most evidence points to use bm running 3 attacks is the best way forward. Both stabs along are strong and a priority for the team is super important and it feels like dropping any makes bm feel less optimal. So while calm mind is a good option, I haven't seen it being the best.

For some of the matchups, what I've seen on normal is Flying is absolutely miserable. They have so many answers and the path to victory is very limited. We can discuss this on the side peng or in another format as this specific match up with the steel birds has been brought up a few times, and we may not want to clutter the post with it. There are also other difficult matchups like Water and ground, and if you face a good Fighting team like with Mauby, probably just save your time and forfeit lol.
 

Azick

Love Sosa
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I have been playing a lot more since Baxc ban and I think the meta has gotten significantly better from it, leading to me enjoying it much more. That said, I think there is still room for tiering on a couple things, and BM is definitely #1 on that list for me. Ever since this mon got released it's been an absolute powerhouse, with an utterly ridiculous defensive prowess to back it up. I think this mon should absolutely go and I'll divide my reasoning into two sections:

1. This mon's just broken
BM turns games on their head quite frequently. I don't have replays on hand but I'm sure we can all of think of a game where you thought it was won just to have a BM take 20% from some neutral move, moonlight, and start breaking your spirit. BM's wide range of utilities is obviously one of the main things pushing it over the edge. I don't think any other mon in the tier has the ability to sucessfully utilize differing sets by just using properly crafted EV's and items to the extent BM does. And the not knowing what your facing until its too late is something that happens all too often. Between defensively biased CM sets, max spA Blood Moon sets, and even the random speed invested BM's firing off a Blood Moon into something you thought was abt to revenge it,(this is less of a thing, but it did cook me twice while getting reqs so i'ma bring it up) it's incredibly frustrating to load into this mon. The last two notable things pushing it over the edge are ability and Vacuum Wave. Being able to click stuff like Blood Moon while being "unpunishable" due to the ability, and VW giving it an out to help make up for its lackluster speed tier, and own stuff like Pao which could otherwise RK, has become quite ridiculous. The only real arguement I saw against this so far is a poor defensive typing, and while true, I think both types its on provide good enough support so its w/e to me.

2. Builder creativity is significantly increased in a BM'less meta.
SV has always been an offensive meta, but I think defensive and even stall builds have potential in this tier. I know I personally almost never load Poison because outside of clicking right with CB Sneasler(which is regardless an unfavorable roll against max defense sets) BM usage is quite high and pretty much invalidates the type. I was also messing ard with stall waters and while I found compositions that seemed winnable into much of the meta, being able to at least play ard stuff like Landorus, Specs Flutter, Band Pao, etc, finding a check to Blood Moon Earth Power max SpA is pretty much impossible. Anyways, thats a hyper specific example, and I'm not saying ban BM so I can play stall, but I think removing it opens up a lot of potential for more defensive builds, and thus a more diverse meta.

Not to bring up another mon in this suspect thread, but I feel this point is kind of useful to think about.

Notably I used a similar arguement to the one above for Baxc, and as I was typing this out I realized how similar I think the two mons are. They both have/had the ability to set up on offensive teams utilizing their bulk, invalidate many defensive teams, and even had respective access to priority to make up for their speeds. Baxc was a bit more obviously busted, and the two aren't 1:1 by any means, but its just something I thought about while writing this, and something that I think could be useful to consider for others.
 
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I'm glad OP brought up the usage of playing stall water with multiple traps, perish song and rests. I'm not sure what the correct EVs for bm are but still very confident for normal the 3 attacks is optimal.

Noting Landorous was brought up again can probably shift the discussion a little bit on bm not being as problematic on normal but more showing the vast number of extremely strong Mons on Ground that might be overwhelming teams
 
2am post cuz i can't sleep but i'm definitely voting ban. the mon is way too bulky and has recovery + setup + really strong stabs. if you can't kill it after 2 turns or less the game gets flipped upside down and outside of your favor. it also just has great support on both types so even if you threaten it out, the ground/normal user has both physical and special walls to swap to that also can get ursa back in the game safely later. bouncing off azick's point the meta will be more creative without the mon as well. a lot of types will be open to both more offensive styles and more bulky styles that they didn't have access to previously. i also liked azick's comparison to bax due to the overwhelming offensive presence but another reason why it's not 1:1 is that ursa-bm can also reliably recover. the sand on ground builds hinder moonlight but it is not too difficult to play around it and the get recovery that you need.

another point that im going to just briefly touch on, but i already know is probably going to be a more major point in someone else's post, is that this mon has enough unpredictability factor to it where if you guess wrong you can end up paying a heavy price for it. between cm, guessing the moves it has with cm, or 3 attacks or even wise glasses paired with any of the prior sets, gives it just enough of that factor that just make things go wrong so quickly if it isn't the set you're expecting. which in turn makes it difficult to prepare for in the builder let alone in game. anyways thats just my stance as a reqs bearer once again, i really think we're at a pivotal moment in the tiering of this gen's mono and if we can get this mon banned we are going to be in really good shape going forward. best of luck to all getting reqs and excited to hear other's thoughts as the suspect continues on.
 

Ethereal Sword

Fezandipiti
is a Tiering Contributor
shhh... you're about to see some forbidden cookery

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2107571512?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2107611476?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2107572362?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2107574923?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2107579150?p2

keep it a secret
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mind's Eye
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blood Moon
- Hyper Voice
- Earth Power
- Vacuum Wave

ladder peak 1700
1713623990443.png
 
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Disclaimer
  • The purpose of this post is simply to share my opinion on why I will be voting Do Not Ban (DNB)
  • Therefore this post is not an attempt to sway the opinions of Ban voters nor do I have any animosity towards Ban voters.
  • I'm an adult who understands that you can disagree respectfully without unnecessary rebukes like "noob argument", "voting DNB means you don't care about improving the tier", "your DNB view has to be sarcasm, because it's stupid and different to my Ban view".

Protocol having been established, :ursaluna bloodmoon: will definitely be remembered as one of the most powerful mons of Gen 9. While I understand why it's being suspect tested, my own independent thought/opinion remains: DNB

Official SV Monotype analyses:
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mind's Eye
EVs: 216 HP / 224 Def / 68 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Moonlight

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon (M) @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Mind's Eye
EVs: 188 HP / 252 SpA / 68 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Modest Nature
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Vacuum Wave
- Moonlight

  • Of course Monotype is a tier where type match-ups and super effective damage are everything. So ask yourself, is :ursaluna bloodmoon: so powerful that it can overwhelm the four (4) types that it's weak to? Or do said types all have at least one Pokemon that comfortably checks :ursaluna bloodmoon:
Let's run some calcs using the aforementioned sets from the SV analyses and five (5) dual-typed Pokemon who can each hit :ursaluna bloodmoon: for super effective damage using STAB moves.

  • Fighting
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 510-600 (121.1 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 192+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 294-348 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
      • +1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 56 HP / 164 SpD Assault Vest Gallade: 151-178 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 192+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 386-456 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
      • 252+ SpA Wise Glasses Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 56 HP / 164 SpD Assault Vest Gallade: 145-172 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Surf vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 624-734 (150.7 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Grass
    • +1 0 SpA Sinistcha Matcha Gotcha vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 288-342 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
      • +1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sinistcha: 235-277 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +1 0 SpA Sinistcha Matcha Gotcha vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 432-510 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Ice
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 420-494 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 626-740 (151.2 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Water
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 474-560 (112.5 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 710-836 (171.4 - 201.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Of course the bear has partners in crime such as Blissey and Clodsire but this counterpoint baffles me because all mons have teammates...
  • With other counter play options such as Encore, Choiced Item + Trick / Switcheroo, Taunt, Whirlwind / Roar... I'm just not seeing how the bear crosses the banworthy threshold.
  • Many were surprised when a certain Steel/Ghost type Pokemon appeared on survey #4 but when you consider it's completely immune to the aforementioned status moves :blobthinking:
 
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it also just has great support on both types so even if you threaten it out, the ground/normal user has both physical and special walls to swap to that also can get ursa back in the game safely later.
You actually think a middling type like normal is a problem? Let's focus on that, what physical wall does normal have? I use Braviary with a base 75 defense, mainly because of Gambit, and it still gets one shot by sucker after it easily gets in a +2 in.

I would ask people to look in the mono normal builder and see what access to DEF normal has. The bear sadly is the only one above 110, compare that with ground that has 5+ higher than the bear.

With ground, look at Ethereal's wild set on bm and that success. That's not happening with support on normal (people keep comparing a S rank like Clodsire with a B rank bliss). We can see what adjustments comes back with, but its becoming clear:

Normal is not a problem right now and no one is discussing the Bear on Normal as an issue
 

TTK

Demonic Emperor
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I cannot really say any of the DNB reasonings have made me change my mind nor have really moved the needle in their way and in no way am I trying to be offensive, but so far have been a wall of calcs more than trying to explain why BM's presence in this tier is healthy one or how it is a balanced mon worth not banning. I am not too concerned with what people vote on an individual level, as long as we have enough pro ban voters (confident in this one), that's fine for me. Either way, time to respond to the post that made me want to post in the first place.

Disclaimer
  • The purpose of this post is simply to share my opinion on why I will be voting Do Not Ban (DNB)
  • Therefore this post is not an attempt to sway the opinions of Ban voters nor do I have any animosity towards Ban voters.
  • I'm an adult who understands that you can disagree respectfully without unnecessary rebukes like "noob argument", "voting DNB means you don't care about improving the tier", "your DNB view has to be sarcasm, because it's stupid and different to my Ban view".

Protocol having been established, :ursaluna bloodmoon: will definitely be remembered as one of the most powerful mons of Gen 9. While I understand why it's being suspect tested, my own independent thought/opinion remains: DNB

Official SV Monotype analyses:
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mind's Eye
EVs: 216 HP / 224 Def / 68 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Moonlight

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon (M) @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Mind's Eye
EVs: 188 HP / 252 SpA / 68 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Modest Nature
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Vacuum Wave
- Moonlight

  • Of course Monotype is a tier where type match-ups and super effective damage are everything. So ask yourself, is :ursaluna bloodmoon: so powerful that it can overwhelm the four (4) types that it's weak to? Or do said types all have at least one Pokemon that comfortably checks :ursaluna bloodmoon:
Let's run some calcs using the aforementioned sets from the SV analyses and five (5) dual-typed Pokemon who can each hit :ursaluna bloodmoon: for super effective damage using STAB moves.

  • Fighting
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 510-600 (121.1 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 192+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 294-348 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
      • +1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 56 HP / 164 SpD Assault Vest Gallade: 151-178 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 192+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 386-456 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
      • 252+ SpA Wise Glasses Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 56 HP / 164 SpD Assault Vest Gallade: 145-172 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Surf vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 624-734 (150.7 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Grass
    • +1 0 SpA Sinistcha Matcha Gotcha vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 288-342 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
      • +1 0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sinistcha: 235-277 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +1 0 SpA Sinistcha Matcha Gotcha vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 432-510 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Ice
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 420-494 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 626-740 (151.2 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Water
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. +1 216 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 474-560 (112.5 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 710-836 (171.4 - 201.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • Of course the bear has partners in crime such as Blissey and Clodsire but this counterpoint baffles me because all mons have teammates...
  • With other counter play options such as Encore, Choiced Item + Trick / Switcheroo, Taunt, Whirlwind / Roar... I'm just not seeing how the bear crosses the banworthy threshold.
  • Many were surprised when a certain Steel/Ghost type Pokemon appeared on survey #4 but when you consider it's completely immune to the aforementioned status moves :blobthinking:
I'm not really sure that highlighting that an individual pokemon having its offensive and defensive checks on the types it's weak to means that a mon cannot be banworthy. Your point fails to highlight there are 14 other types in the game and how Ursaluna-BM interacts with those. But if we do start with Ursaluna's weaknesses here, there's still an issue of your argument locking itself into a trap of assuming that Ursaluna-BM is stuck only using two sets and the calcs that follow turn up not to be consistent.
1713616652630.png
1713616674840.png
The following spoiler holds the stats of Ursaluna-BM, the first for normal and the second for ground teams. If you look closely, the Normal analysis that mauby uses only gets used 2% of the time in high ladder and the ground analysis they use is much higher. at 8% for ground. But what do I want to make a point of here? Ursaluna more often than not is running notable Special Attack investment a majority of the time. So we can effectively ignore the Sinistcha calc, it's not a switchin anyway but we change mauby's calc, it's not taking Blood Moon at +1

+1 116+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sinistcha: 424-499 (122.5 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Moving into Ice, the Specs Kyurem calc also confuses me because Blissey exists on Normal. You say "saying a mon has teammates" confuses you but no one is staying in BM vs a Kyurem. If i were to use Baxcalibur as an example (a mon we banned because it was dumb), Bax is not staying in on any Close Combat (ignoring Ice's snow or veil LOL). This didn't stop it from setting up on things that didn't threaten to OHKO it and it proceeded to OHKO things back in return. BM is in a similar situation, it's physically bulkier than Bax, has reliable recovery and an insane STAB move that nothing in the tier outside of Chansey/Blissey and Corviknight want to switch into, and BM can even set up on the former and potentially the latter if they lack Iron Defense.

I would also like to note that "Encore, Choiced Item + Trick / Switcheroo, Taunt, Whirlwind / Roar.. " - all of these are pretty telegraphed and name me a Whirlwind/Roar mon that's taking the hit and actually getting it off? The Gholdengo point is also weird to bring up since that's not even the topic of the suspect and it being immune to status has no bearing on what Ursaluna does in the metagame.


Now this will be the conclusion bit here. Really think about this mon and why a good number of people want it gone. It's bulk and damage output are essentially equivalent, its STABs are resisted by 3 pokemon in the entire game and 2 of those lack the special bulk to even handle it, especially if it sets up. The majority of the type board are simply overwhelmed by this pokemon and while it does have its weaknesses and low special bulk, it has been highlighted in this thread that its special bulk can be handled by setting up with Calm Mind and looking at the usage stats again, some Ground teams even had AV, heck Ethereal Sword is running Specs. Some EV spreads had some benchmark SpDef EVs. I am unaware what they are for but imagine whatever special attack it's meant to live, the opponent thinks they can beat it and then oh wait it survives and claims that mon. It has proven that its versatility, bulk, and damage output are a cut above the rest and not banning it would be a pretty bad idea all things considered.

Look beyond weaknesses and calcs (funny to say that for Monotype) and think about teambuilder and gameplay and how much these things are impacted by individual pokemon.
 
Ursaluna more often than not is running notable Special Attack investment a majority of the time. So we can effectively ignore the Sinistcha calc, it's not a switchin anyway but we change mauby's calc, it's not taking Blood Moon at +1

+1 116+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sinistcha: 424-499 (122.5 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Well that's just unfortunate you're putting me on blast with my stats(yes they're public, but its nice for people to work to get them). There will be a lot of benefit to analyzing them.

Looking at the stats, a Normal bear is running modest(+spa) with investment nearly all the time, kind of destroying a lot of the diversity arguments that are getting thrown around.

Additionally, a Normal bear is running 3 attacks nearly all time again, making your +1 calc not applicable (you did help write the bm analysis and that's rally appreciated, but the stats don't agree with normal cm). The lack of normal diversity show that Ethereal's wild team isn't going to get that same success.

Feel free to laugh at my EVs(majority of those stats are mine), but I'm always looking for improvements so slide in the dms and we can discuss better spreads
 
You actually think a middling type like normal is a problem? Let's focus on that, what physical wall does normal have? I use Braviary with a base 75 defense, mainly because of Gambit, and it still gets one shot by sucker after it easily gets in a +2 in.

I would ask people to look in the mono normal builder and see what access to DEF normal has. The bear sadly is the only one above 110, compare that with ground that has 5+ higher than the bear.

With ground, look at Ethereal's wild set on bm and that success. That's not happening with support on normal (people keep comparing a S rank like Clodsire with a B rank bliss). We can see what adjustments comes back with, but its becoming clear:

Normal is not a problem right now and no one is discussing the Bear on Normal as an issue
i respect your humility but normal is not a middling type right now. i would easily put it into the middle or low of A tier on my type tier list. braviary isn't the only physical support ursa-bm has. porygon2 and terapagos can also run physical defensive/bulky sets to provide adequate support against gambit and other mons you mentioned that might be problematic. ursa-bm is almost equally an issue on normal then it is on ground.
 
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You actually think P2 can take on Gambit? Daddy P2 had lots of hype being reintroduced, with several super smart players thinking it could be S tier. The shine has worn off showing its numerous issues including not being able to do much to Gambit(it will be interesting to see what set is proposed).

You're right on normal being the middle with that 8-11 range, as they say perfectly average lol. Terapagos has been amazing to work with and I definitely have not figured out its optimal set, but as a good amount of the above comments show , not very many play normal to bounce ideas off of and learn different sets. It will be nice when an optimal Tera set is settled on.

With the above stats basically proving otherwise you still want to say normal is an issue? Let's hear that defense from anyone that would like to support that, because the usage says a different story.
 
I cannot really say any of the DNB reasonings have made me change my mind nor have really moved the needle in their way and in no way am I trying to be offensive, but so far have been a wall of calcs more than trying to explain why BM's presence in this tier is healthy one or how it is a balanced mon worth not banning. I am not too concerned with what people vote on an individual level, as long as we have enough pro ban voters (confident in this one), that's fine for me. Either way, time to respond to the post that made me want to post in the first place.



I'm not really sure that highlighting that an individual pokemon having its offensive and defensive checks on the types it's weak to means that a mon cannot be banworthy. Your point fails to highlight there are 14 other types in the game and how Ursaluna-BM interacts with those. But if we do start with Ursaluna's weaknesses here, there's still an issue of your argument locking itself into a trap of assuming that Ursaluna-BM is stuck only using two sets and the calcs that follow turn up not to be consistent.
The following spoiler holds the stats of Ursaluna-BM, the first for normal and the second for ground teams. If you look closely, the Normal analysis that mauby uses only gets used 2% of the time in high ladder and the ground analysis they use is much higher. at 8% for ground. But what do I want to make a point of here? Ursaluna more often than not is running notable Special Attack investment a majority of the time. So we can effectively ignore the Sinistcha calc, it's not a switchin anyway but we change mauby's calc, it's not taking Blood Moon at +1

+1 116+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sinistcha: 424-499 (122.5 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Moving into Ice, the Specs Kyurem calc also confuses me because Blissey exists on Normal. You say "saying a mon has teammates" confuses you but no one is staying in BM vs a Kyurem. If i were to use Baxcalibur as an example (a mon we banned because it was dumb), Bax is not staying in on any Close Combat (ignoring Ice's snow or veil LOL). This didn't stop it from setting up on things that didn't threaten to OHKO it and it proceeded to OHKO things back in return. BM is in a similar situation, it's physically bulkier than Bax, has reliable recovery and an insane STAB move that nothing in the tier outside of Chansey/Blissey and Corviknight want to switch into, and BM can even set up on the former and potentially the latter if they lack Iron Defense.

I would also like to note that "Encore, Choiced Item + Trick / Switcheroo, Taunt, Whirlwind / Roar.. " - all of these are pretty telegraphed and name me a Whirlwind/Roar mon that's taking the hit and actually getting it off? The Gholdengo point is also weird to bring up since that's not even the topic of the suspect and it being immune to status has no bearing on what Ursaluna does in the metagame.


Now this will be the conclusion bit here. Really think about this mon and why a good number of people want it gone. It's bulk and damage output are essentially equivalent, its STABs are resisted by 3 pokemon in the entire game and 2 of those lack the special bulk to even handle it, especially if it sets up. The majority of the type board are simply overwhelmed by this pokemon and while it does have its weaknesses and low special bulk, it has been highlighted in this thread that its special bulk can be handled by setting up with Calm Mind and looking at the usage stats again, some Ground teams even had AV, heck Ethereal Sword is running Specs. Some EV spreads had some benchmark SpDef EVs. I am unaware what they are for but imagine whatever special attack it's meant to live, the opponent thinks they can beat it and then oh wait it survives and claims that mon. It has proven that its versatility, bulk, and damage output are a cut above the rest and not banning it would be a pretty bad idea all things considered.

Look beyond weaknesses and calcs (funny to say that for Monotype) and think about teambuilder and gameplay and how much these things are impacted by individual pokemon.
  • I guess you skipped the disclaimer
  • I simply posted example sets with calcs, as a point of reference for actual gameplay scenarios one might encounter.
  • "...the Normal analysis that mauby uses TTK himself wrote only gets used 2% of the time in high ladders..."
    - if you think your own work is irrelevant, that's on you buddy.
  • You claim that :ursaluna bloodmoon: is such an oppressive force and yet Ground and Normal teams featuring bear would still struggle to muscle past one of the least viable types in Grass, which is supposdely "ass".
  • Notice I put emphasis on "five (5) dual-typed Pokemon" because Keldeo, Gallade, Sinistcha, Kyurem and Greninja are not limited to only Fighting-, Grass-, Ice- and Water-type teams, respectively.
  • Previous posts are full of theoretical musings, lacking any supportive evidence in example sets, calcs or even replays.
  • This goes without saying but the bear can only run 1 set per game with 1 EV sprad, 1 item and 4 moves.
  • This also goes without saying but any player on PS has equal opportunity to ladder, qualify for reqs and contribute to Monotype tiering with their vote. That's the beauty of a democratic process where virtual "rings" and "trophies" are irrelevant.
 
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sasha

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I was on the DNB side of this discussion, but over time I realized no Ursa means a more diverse meta and the teammates/tools Ursa has access to while already being a very incredibly strong mon on its own pushes it over the edge, though I'm still on the fence. I don't have time to get reqs so regardless of the outcome of this suspect I will not complain lol but I do hope that it is banned even so.

Normal is not a problem right now and no one is discussing the Bear on Normal as an issue
Because Monotype is not a tier in which you tier in favor of a type or another. Normal does not have the tools that turn Ursa-B into the threat that it can be. Ground has access to things such as Exca, a mon that forms a very oppressive core with Ursa-B, and hazard stack which Normal doesn't reliably provide (there are literally no Spike users on Normal). This pushes Ursa's breaking potential and as Ground without Ursa is already a great type, adding Ursa to the mix just makes it absurd, which also makes the meta more stale / redundant to play and prep against, thus oppressive. Meaning that in a competitive setting (competitive is arbitrary but lol) people are going to use Ground unless Normal in particular is going to beat someone's usage in a tournament or is particularly tech'd to beat the meta. I understand that tiering doesn't exist around competitive tournaments only, and I've said this before but if you use a not great type on ladder, you will be punished for it. Any competitive game with a meta will punish people for using bad or worse strategies. It's not to say using non meta things will never work, but thats the point of a meta. There are clearly defined strategies people use to win or strategies that are proven to be better than others. So yeah Normal isn't an issue but that doesn't mean Ursa is balanced because of that. It's a normal issue, Ursa-B has nothing to do with Normal being mid. Actually, Ursa is the only reason some people consider Normal to be an A tier type (I personally think Normal sucks). I should say that I don't really know if you were trying to say Ursa-B should remain unbanned because it would make Normal worse or not so I apologize if I completely misconstrued your words but I thought I should comment on this general concept anyway.

Lastly, let's keep in mind that the bear can only run 1 set at a time with 1 item and 4 moves.
The point people are trying to make is that figuring out Ursa-B's set is usually not in favor of the non Ursa user. When you load into preview there are mons where you know what their set is, which you can develop a game plan around -- and if you don't it's not going to be the end of the world if you figure it out as you play (in most cases at least, other mons that break this apart a little bit are Pokemon that people have already considered broken or oppressive but I won't mention them since this is about Ursa-BM only). But trying to figure out the mon with insane spatk and a 120Bp move that can only be resisted by two types (one being unviable, the other Ursa-BM can hit super effectively) is wise glasses or cm or a certain set of moves is likely not going to result in your favor. People can mention XYZ mon can wall Ursa-B as much as they want but I'll touch on this later.

I also think textwalling calcs does nothing in terms of getting your point across:

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 283-334 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ursaluna can just Moonlight while you become -2 spatk and youre now in the losing interaction, or just EP and kill you
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 376-444 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Not a roll in your favor, and ursa ohkos with blood moon + can also moonlight while you become -2. losing the interaction and momentum just like gholdengo

I could go on and on about the calcs posted, but it would be a waste of time and most calcs don't mean anything anyway and I think I've made that clear. Plus, many of these cals are showing off insanely strong moves / sets and just barely OHKOing Ursaluna or proving the point that Ursaluna can come out on top of these interactions anyway, which would favor the Ban side of the discussion lol.

Posting calcs of Ursa-BM dying to random moves / not instantly OHKOing a mon is an insult to these threads. Pokemon is a game played with 6 Pokemon on a team, with multi-faceted level gameplay. These calcs are just showing damage you will take from a move. Not how certain interactions will play out, not to mention you have 5 other Pokemon to play with and not just Ursa-BM, so mentioning random mons that wall Ursa-B is pointless, and isn't considering how the game is actually played between two teams of 6 mons. The tools and teams that Ursa-BM has access too in tandem with its plethora of sets and fantastic offensive stats and typing make it extremely straining.

I've never understood arguing over whether or not certain types are bad/good or posting random calcs. Ursaluna is likely not healthy for the tier, regardless of whether or not it will die to a Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor or if it can't kill a Meowscarada with Vacuum Wave.
 
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As someone on the ban side I'd thought I'd chip in. I personally think that Bloodmoon is simply too high of a power level to be healthy for the meta. I do aknowledge that there are some mons that can reliably come in on it and 1v1, although the only ones that come to mind that can do it reliably over the course of a game are haze Articuno and ironpress Skarm/Corv, everything else that has been mentioned in this thread either can't come in on a Blood Moon or Earth Power, loses to Calm Mind + Moonlight, or has no recovery and so can only scare out Ursaluna once or twice. The fact that the Ursaluna player gets around almost all counterplay with smart positioning and often takes several mons down with it if not outright sweeps makes it an overwhelming pressure on the metagame and thus deserves to be banned.
 
INormal does not have the tools that turn Ursa-B into the threat that it can be.



Pokemon is a game played with 6 Pokemon on a team, with multi-faceted level gameplay.

I've never understood arguing over whether or not certain types are bad/good or posting random calcs.
Its nice to see you actually say that Normal isn't the issue here as most posts are still refuse to talk about it. Normal has minimal usage, so there's a lot of unknowns from different posters on it.

I didnt want to highlight all the contradictions, but you posted calcs and then described certain type mono teams. This is continuing trend of posts showing evidence on one side, but users trying to say another. With the above stat usage being quite clear, maybe posters just want to break the trend in mono by banning the first poke with 52 speed or slower without basically have 700 stats
 
Nice that this thread is active, going for reqs so thought I'd comment here. Leaning towards ban because the mon is almost textbook busted but I'll miss clicking buttons with it if it leaves.

The free item slot is something that's scarcely been brought up as of yet and that's something that significantly adds to Bloodmoon's unpredictability. Boots are pretty useless on it and wise glasses are only really used to guarantee OHKO :Chien-Pao: with vacuum wave. As soon as that thing is banished to hell because it's the most broken mon in this tier, we'll see even more item and set variety. Weak berries can be pretty nasty since most types rely on strong super effective special attacks to kill it. Lets Bloodmoon live some specs attacks and almost everything that misses out on an OHKO due to these will die to a blood moon.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2106643745-7qofgvu3nglcjs1blm54syp9m1d4e10pw
Good example of the power of weak berries in a neutral type match-up against someone that's better than me. I let Clod die and my opponent thinks they can scald for free but Passho lets me threaten Slowbro which is the most problematic mon for my team. Couple decent switches lets Bloodmoon kill AV? Hoopa, a +1 Hatterene and it still doesn't die lmao. Bulkier builds like this can get blown up pretty easy and Bloodmoon really invalidates a lot of them.

Most of these DNB calcs are relying on super effective STAB choiced damage when almost every mon will fold to that. Although, here's another funny calc with the bulkier set in the analysis that shows Bloodmoon can be one of the few exceptions because he's physically fat as shit:
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 390-462 (90.6 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 294-346 (101.7 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unfavorable roll with CB 120 BP STAB super effective off 130 base and Bloodmoon's not even max/max. Hilarious.

The calm mind vs blood moon game is really what makes this thing so dangerous. Bloodmoon can get calm mind boosts as well because of immediately threatening blood moon is and how difficult it is to OHKO the thing. At +1 SpD most STAB super effective special attacks won't kill it unless choiced and almost none of those mons can survive the retaliation. The move itself has almost zero switch-ins and the drawback isn't much of a problem when the only flying type that can answer Bloodmoon consistently is Articuno. Corv needs ID Press or else it is set up fodder for calm mind sets. Moonlight is a reliable form of healing on normal or if sands not up on ground so any progress made against it is not permanent unlike any other slow breaker. Helps to set up against physical attackers and special attackers that can't hit it super effectively. Bloodmoon is a genuine trade monster and usually requires at least 2 mons to beat even without calm mind boosts. Generally, I don't think special nuke with specs is that great of counter play that most types have access to.

I'll touch on the DNB post that I liked.

Of course Monotype is a tier where type match-ups and super effective damage are everything. So ask yourself, is :ursaluna bloodmoon: so powerful that it can overwhelm the four (4) types that it's weak to? Or do said types all have at least one Pokemon that comfortably checks :ursaluna bloodmoon:

Of course the bear has partners in crime such as Blissey and Clodsire but this counterpoint baffles me because all mons have teammates...
Admire your perspective but I don't understand these arguments. If dumping on types that the mon is weak to is the only requirement then we can unban plenty of things right now. Bax wasn't overwhelming Steel, Fairy, Fighting, etc. single-handedly and that was banned with a vast majority. Bax was a monster because of its inherent qualities and those were amplified greatly by its teammates on both types. Having access to the 2 best special walls when Bloodmoon's only weakness is its low SpD before set-up is obviously a big bonus. It can spam the broken move and then switch out safely from almost any special response on a wall-breaker set for example. :Blissey: obviously sits on almost every special attacker bar things like Keldeo but in that case normal vs fighting is always gonna be challenging anyway.

I'll address some of your calcs from the ground perspective since that's what I play. AV Gallade is the goat but only used on fighting. Bloodmoon is pretty trash in this match-up though even without it. If I can trade with any one mon I've gotten enough value in my eyes.:Clodsire:walls Keldeo completely and can toxic if its calm mind, why would you stay in. No one is ever going to attempt to 1v1 a Sinistcha when Clod exists and the teacup doesn't take a blood moon well at all if it switches in even from 0 SpA investment. The best way I find to use Bloodmoon against grass is to trade vs their Ogerpon or Meowscarada. Once one of those is dead the match-up is pretty easy, despite being arguably ground's hardest match-up on paper. Yache Bloodmoon, which is decently popular on high ladder already, can trade vs Kyurem with a combo of blood moon + vacuum wave, no teammates needed. If they switch out to avoid the vacuum wave, they'll most likely die to rocks. Kyurem is probably the biggest threat to ground on dragon so trading is worth it, but I would only do this once Pao is dead vs ice. Specs Greninja is a great check and a nightmare for ground to deal with. Requires correct prediction and just out offensing it usually. Water vs ground will always be more difficult for ground and Bloodmoon's still strong in the dark match-up especially once Gren is dead.

With other counter play options such as Encore, Choiced Item + Trick / Switcheroo, Taunt, Whirlwind / Roar... I'm just not seeing how the bear crosses the banworthy threshold.
This is good counter play. Although funnily enough encoring into blood moon at least doesn't work, it repeats one more time. Besides like Ting-Lu, most phasing mons take a big chunk or die to a boosted blood moon. These methods also work for almost every mon with set-up moves though.
 
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