Metagame SV NatDex Monotype Metagame Discussion

Hey all,

I'm gonna give my thoughts on the metagame and why I believe it's leaning towards an unhealthy chokehold with fairy.

Fairy currently has the tools to deal with most of the type chart without too much deviation from a core. While there's nothing wrong with a type being great, there is a problem when a type has considerable constraint on the metagame as a whole. With the two offenders of mega mawile and fluttermane are the reasons why I believe fairy has unhealthy presence in the metagame.

Fluttermane has an incredible speed and special attack stat that very few Pokémon rival. With the combination of it's great move pool with coverage options such as energy ball, thunderbolt, power gem, and etc. It's set up to be a fantastic wall breaker with a great items choices such as a scarf/specs/lo and sometimes leftovers. Fluttermane is very constricting on teambuilding as of right now, considering that only a select few pokemon can take on fluttermane without much fear. The fundamental problem with fluttermane is even if you know what's coming a lot of the time there isn't much you can do about it, if your team didn't already have designated flutter check to that particular set. Scarf can outspeed the entire unboosted metagame and threaten would be revenge killers, baring priority (getting to that latter). Revenge killing is almost impossible without a bulky resist to whatever it locks itself into. This comes into play that this is only one Pokémon, fairy has 3 options for screens and because fairy has so many great options it can easily pivot into it's bulkier mons. That only considering its scarf if you predict wrong and switch into your bulky special defense mon, because of its massive 135 SPA it easily takes a chunk out of a number of said bulky pivots with the specs set. There aren't many switch ins across the types that aren't of the stall archetype. Not many resists its dual stabs on top of its coverage being able to hit the entire metagame for neutral or super effective damage. It can also set up with a calm mind set if it so chooses to on those fearing either choice locked set. Which isn't as prominent or as it's choice sets its still very threatening nether less once the few checks on select (not each) types can be dealt with. Fairy has the tools to deal with them as fluttermane's best partner in crime is mega mawile.

Mega mawile is one fairy's very viable mega options. Mega mawile supplements fluttermane in it's ability to to break through, most would be problematic to fairy with it's incredible attack stat coupled with Huge power. Sucker punch allows mega maw to bypass would be counters that aren't physical behemoths or resists. Priority abusers such as kingambit would threaten most fluttermane out however, mega mawhile is there to handle it with its vast move pool in options coupled with a single swords dance. Non bulky mons are ohkoed with sucker punch at + 2, and bulky mons are dealt with either one if it's stabs or super effective options. It's very easy for mega mawile to get in and swords dance with the screens support + physical attackers in it's base form with intimidate. The best way of dealing with mega mawhile is burning or killing it before it gets to +2. While burning is a bit more feasible for types that have great will-o-wispers and for certain Pokémon with scald. Fairy has hatterene to bounce back statuses, clefable to absorb them, and or tapu fini to straight up deny them. Fairy is also one of types that can experiment with TR and since its speed stat is very low it can be a primer TR abuser, however this is not a common playstyle. It has the team support to handle would be ways of countering it and problematic Pokémon for it to deal with.

Only select types can handle the combination of just fluttermane and mega mawile. With the team support these types do not have the options to deal with both of them without considerable constraint in the team builder. Fire for example is a type that on paper has a great MU against fairy, however in practice it falls short. The combination of fluttermane being able to abuse sun itself and mega mawile being able to ohkos almost all of fire's scarfers without even having to be at +2. In particular fluttermane is able to remove volcanion a major threat for fairy without fear of its stabs being resisted besides Pyroar (which is a very niche pick only for this particular mon). This much more dangerous than tapu koko who fire has ways of dealing with defensively. I'm not saying because fairy can beat fire without much effort is a reason why its unhealthy. It's the fact that it virtually does that with every type with bare minimum requirement being these two Pokémon is unhealthy.

I believe that right now fairy is the premier type in an unhealthy fashion due to these two mons bolstering an already well resourced type to astronomical heights. With these 2 Pokémon the other 4 are simply there to build around their would be counters. This is leading to an overcentralized game of countering fairy and because it can virtually do whatever it wants with no consequences of its team building and if your not playing this type then your at a big disadvantage.
 
Fighting has really just been getting beat into the ground lately. It's been painful to watch. Mega Lucario: Fightings really only true answer to Fairy, banned. Mega Medicham: A really good heavy hitter that, atleast from what I've seen playing with it, isn't very OP. Decent speed tier with 200 attack, but this is a pretty fast paced meta. Still banned. Zamazenta, one of the fastest available mons for fighting, banned.

Right now Fighting really struggles with Flutter Mane, you're kind of forced to run scarf Iron Valiant, Urshifu or the Swords of Justice, because those are the only ones fast and strong enough to outspeed, because otherwise you get swept by Moonblast.

I also find it flat out unfair that Megacham got banned before Mega Mawile, despite having worse STAB, coverage, and a lower attack.

TLDR: Fix fighting
 
Fighting has really just been getting beat into the ground lately. It's been painful to watch. Mega Lucario: Fightings really only true answer to Fairy, banned. Mega Medicham: A really good heavy hitter that, atleast from what I've seen playing with it, isn't very OP. Decent speed tier with 200 attack, but this is a pretty fast paced meta. Still banned. Zamazenta, one of the fastest available mons for fighting, banned.

Right now Fighting really struggles with Flutter Mane, you're kind of forced to run scarf Iron Valiant, Urshifu or the Swords of Justice, because those are the only ones fast and strong enough to outspeed, because otherwise you get swept by Moonblast.

I also find it flat out unfair that Megacham got banned before Mega Mawile, despite having worse STAB, coverage, and a lower attack.

TLDR: Fix fighting
Agreed. Seems like Flutter Mane belongs in the Chi-yu/Bundle ban trio for similar reasons as those 2. More people have called for it to be banned since day 1 than any other mon. Yet, it remains as fighting gets gutted. I’ve heard arguments that fighting’s still viable. It still has this mon or that mon. That all sounds good on paper, but not in practice.
 
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We are still in the early days of the meta and we have new mons coming, making things more interesting in the future.
It is true that some mons have proved to be really strong for a healthy balance as stated above me, with the current quick bans the current state of the types is going to be unbalanced and fairy will be dominant.
From my experience and the opinions expressed from other players I belive that:
1.- Flutter Mane: Best paradox mon (stats), insane revenge killer (Good versatility lets Flutter deal with both it's weaknesses), no mon can resist both it's stabs, yes it's a glass cannon but it only has only 2 weaknesses (steel and ghost) and finally it has a speed stat that outspeeds most if not all the avilable mons and lets Flutter forget about choice scarf. Should get banned
2.- Chi-yu and Iron bundle: Both very similar to flutter Mane, Iron bundle being one of the very few mons that can outspeed Flutter that hits with a more than decent special attack with both it's stabs hitting neutral to a lot of mons, making water vs ice really hard for water and Chi-yu being a special wall breaker that can 1htko blissey full hp with +2 and inferno overdrive. Both deserved to be banned
3.-Annihilape: Ape's decent bulk and good typing makes it really hard to 1 shot for most types and imposible for others, most of the time assuring a 100 power ghost move with stab and this without taking in consideration the more than possible bulk up. I agree that this makes an already good pokemon a banworthy one, but fighting is already getting beaten up, so if rage fist is the only reason that the mon is banned then only ban rage fist.
I'm positive that the mon would still see a lot of play.
These are the mons that I've been interacting with, no coment on the others.
 

Neko

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We are still in the early days of the meta and we have new mons coming, making things more interesting in the future.
It is true that some mons have proved to be really strong for a healthy balance as stated above me, with the current quick bans the current state of the types is going to be unbalanced and fairy will be dominant.
From my experience and the opinions expressed from other players I belive that:
1.- Flutter Mane: Best paradox mon (stats), insane revenge killer (Good versatility lets Flutter deal with both it's weaknesses), no mon can resist both it's stabs, yes it's a glass cannon but it only has only 2 weaknesses (steel and ghost) and finally it has a speed stat that outspeeds most if not all the avilable mons and lets Flutter forget about choice scarf. Should get banned
2.- Chi-yu and Iron bundle: Both very similar to flutter Mane, Iron bundle being one of the very few mons that can outspeed Flutter that hits with a more than decent special attack with both it's stabs hitting neutral to a lot of mons, making water vs ice really hard for water and Chi-yu being a special wall breaker that can 1htko blissey full hp with +2 and inferno overdrive. Both deserved to be banned
3.-Annihilape: Ape's decent bulk and good typing makes it really hard to 1 shot for most types and imposible for others, most of the time assuring a 100 power ghost move with stab and this without taking in consideration the more than possible bulk up. I agree that this makes an already good pokemon a banworthy one, but fighting is already getting beaten up, so if rage fist is the only reason that the mon is banned then only ban rage fist.
I'm positive that the mon would still see a lot of play.
These are the mons that I've been interacting with, no coment on the others.
btw Chi Yu, Annihi, and Bundle are already banned, its just not implemented in the simulator yet. The recent bans kinda make Balance a little more viable, because most of the remaining stuff are a bit more wallable / easier to handle.

TLDR: Fix fighting
We can't favor any one type, and though its a bit odd that M.Medi did go first (sorry ;w;), Fighting still has access to Mega Gallade for the coverage + speed at the cost of power and priority. As for Flutter Mane however, all is not lost, as you can still use Assault Vest Iron Hands (doubles as a catch-all check for a lot of special checks, just dont run into CM Fairium Z Flutt....) + Scarfers that also pressure Fairy back such as Scarf Terrakion / Galarian Zapdos. I wont go into too much with priority because Fluttermane actually has Psychic terrain support this time with Tapu Lele / Brick Walls like M.Sableye. (I don't really like flutter mane at all, though...)

As for why those mons were banned, it was ridiculously funny to see Zama-H reverse sweep types like Fairy with the Iron Defense set, and was literally too bulky to properly deal with for a lot of types. M.Lucario's Adaptability meant that it was verrry lethal after a Swords Dance. Lastly, Urshifu gained Swords Dance which made it much more worse than last generation, allowing it to just delete anything that isn't Fairy on its path.
 
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We can't favor any one type, and though its a bit odd that M.Medi did go first (sorry ;w;), Fighting still has access to Mega Gallade for the coverage + speed at the cost of power and priority. As for Flutter Mane however, all is not lost, as you can still use Assault Vest Iron Hands (doubles as a catch-all check for a lot of special checks, just dont run into CM Fairium Z Flutt....) + Scarfers that also pressure Fairy back such as Scarf Terrakion / Galarian Zapdos. I wont go into too much with priority because Fluttermane actually has Psychic terrain support this time with Tapu Lele / Brick Walls like M.Sableye. (I don't really like flutter mane at all, though...)

As for why those mons were banned, it was ridiculously funny to see Zama-H reverse sweep types like Fairy with the Iron Defense set, and was literally too bulky to properly deal with for a lot of types. M.Lucario's Adaptability meant that it was verrry lethal after a Swords Dance. Lastly, Urshifu gained Swords Dance which made it much more worse than last generation, allowing it to just delete anything that isn't Fairy on its path.
Mega Gallade is awkward because of its speed tier and lack of ability for the most part. 110 isn't great in this meta, and anything over 75 base speed with a scarf will outspeed, and 68/95/115 isn't the best for taking hits.
 
We can't favor any one type, and though its a bit odd that M.Medi did go first (sorry ;w;), Fighting still has access to Mega Gallade for the coverage
But Fairy is obviously being inadvertently favored by Flutter Mane not being banned. Like I said before, it has the stats to be banned, it’s restrictive, and people have been calling for its ban since day 1.
That makes people feel like you don’t listen to them.
I understand this may not be the way things have been done in the past but imo, a types health in the meta SHOULD be considered when making cuts.
I’m with Achi. Maybe ban rage fist instead of ape.
 

Bka Onon

I see Fire.
is a Pre-Contributor
Hello People of National Dex Monotype, It is I, Bka Onon, once again with NDM Type Rankings: Pre-Team Tour Edition
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Made with community, for the community (ok ik FadedCharm wanted Fighting in C, but no way in hell I'm putting Flying in B, so if you want, imagine Fighting and Flying switched places)
Ye if u have any other thoughts, feel free to reply, ight enough for now, Onion out :blobnom:
 
Hello People of National Dex Monotype, It is I, Bka Onon, once again with NDM Type Rankings: Pre-Team Tour Edition
View attachment 483644
Made with community, for the community (ok ik FadedCharm wanted Fighting in C, but no way in hell I'm putting Flying in B, so if you want, imagine Fighting and Flying switched places)
Ye if u have any other thoughts, feel free to reply, ight enough for now, Onion out :blobnom:
Personally I feel like Steel should belong in S tier now. I won't go into deep detail, but these 4 bans were actually very important to allow less answers to steel. Ghost lost Annihilape, Dark lost Chi-Yu, Psychic lost Mega Medi, and water/ice lost one of it's premier damagers to the type as a whole through bundle. This causes an influx in other types to rise, namely fairy, and causes Steel to have less answers to it overall. Water basically has to run either Volcanion or Urshifu-RS to deal with Steel, Psychic has a replacement in Mega Gallade who still has the same draw backs as Mega Medi for the most part. Ghost has to get chip in as much as they can if they want a chance, which can be hard with Steel's own chip and the offensive pressure of Mega Maw or Kingambit. Flutter struggles against Heatran, sp def Steela, AV Kingambit, and is easily revenge killed by Kingambit, Excadrill, or Mmaw. Ceruledge will now hace to be the main one to deal with steel, and it doesn't offer the same tools to the table as Annihilape. Chi-Yu ban straight up removes most of the offensive advantage dark used to have over steel. Most other attackers either don't have the coverage, struggle to switch in, or are checked. Your now best answer is arguable as a whole, and will result in other niche picks(Like Pangoro, or MHoundoom who doesn't 3HKO Heatran)from what to expect if dark wants to have a chance against steel.

Edit: I was reminded that dark still has pokemon like Hydreigon and Iron Jugulis to highly threaten Steel, namely through either their specs variants which run Flamethrower and/or dark pulse, or Hydreigon's NP Sub set, which under screens and depending on the coverage, could end games against Steel. My point however still stands that Dark lost a hard hitter against Steel, and it would require for overall either more effort by the player, or a different pokemon that can also deal with the steel type well overall.
 
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Gen 9 Rankings.png

This is my current assessment of our meta.
I might expand more on this when I have more time.
For now, I will just say that the most recent set of bans or lack thereof allowed the S tier types to go relatively unchecked.
Ghost is the clear 4th pick, and may deserve to be A+ imo.
Had to create an extra row just for Rock. Lol
Let me know what you think!
 
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Alr dead forum but who knows maybe I'll still be criticized, I think Psychic is now a low A tier type. Before Iron Leaves it had a niche, Deoxys S is always good, Mew is basically every role u need, Z-Happy Hour Jirachi, etc. It was alright, but it couldn't do much to the top 3 types. I mean there's a lot of psychic types that are good with fairy moves so it isn't an awful match up against dark, but there wasn't much to do against fairy or steel. Iron Leaves singlehandedly changes that in my opinion. Here's a bunch or calcs over the main threats for fairy.
252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 272-324 (112.8 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl through Reflect: 104-123 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Leaves Psyblade (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain: 292-345 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Leaves Psyblade (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain through Reflect: 146-172 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele through Reflect: 93-110 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Iron Leaves Psyblade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 288-338 (99.6 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Valiant can't ohko even with a crit if it wants to outspeed)
Overall this thing is really useful for Psychic, and grass I guess. Gives them a counter to Koko, which is run on most fairy types, and gives a fast and strong close combat.
 
In my experience on Showdown, I have noticed that while Fire isn't the best all-around type, they can snowball matches if put in the right conditions. One example of this is Sun, which renders Fire's main weakness in Water nearly helpless and empowers all Fire Pokemon to insane degrees (no pun intended). Of course, you have to set up Sun for this, but this is stupidly easy thanks to Torkoal and an item that somehow came out unscathed when its three brethren were banned outright: the Heat Rock. With Torkoal having Drought and Heat Rock not being banned, Sun can last for a total of eight turns, and given how some widely used Fire types like Cinderace and Rotom-Heat have moves that can auto-swap like U-Turn, it is very easy to keep Sun up for an entire battle with the enemy having little to do about it. Their best option is to either have a Pokemon with Knock Off or Trick, or kill Torkoal as fast as possible, and a switch out can make that very difficult, and even when Torkoal is kept out, it's respectable bulk in DEF and SPD can still make that a challenge. As a result, I believe that the Heat Rock should be banned along with the other weather rocks, as it provides the same benefits (albeit inverse) of the Damp Rock on an arguably more suited type for weather usage than Water.
 

Bka Onon

I see Fire.
is a Pre-Contributor
In my experience on Showdown, I have noticed that while Fire isn't the best all-around type, they can snowball matches if put in the right conditions. One example of this is Sun, which renders Fire's main weakness in Water nearly helpless and empowers all Fire Pokemon to insane degrees (no pun intended). Of course, you have to set up Sun for this, but this is stupidly easy thanks to Torkoal and an item that somehow came out unscathed when its three brethren were banned outright: the Heat Rock. With Torkoal having Drought and Heat Rock not being banned, Sun can last for a total of eight turns, and given how some widely used Fire types like Cinderace and Rotom-Heat have moves that can auto-swap like U-Turn, it is very easy to keep Sun up for an entire battle with the enemy having little to do about it. Their best option is to either have a Pokemon with Knock Off or Trick, or kill Torkoal as fast as possible, and a switch out can make that very difficult, and even when Torkoal is kept out, it's respectable bulk in DEF and SPD can still make that a challenge. As a result, I believe that the Heat Rock should be banned along with the other weather rocks, as it provides the same benefits (albeit inverse) of the Damp Rock on an arguably more suited type for weather usage than Water.
You do make some valid points here but there are some things that are not being considered. First, Sun has no (viable) Chlorophyll abusers (in comparison to Slush Rush :cetitan: and :arctozolt:, Sand Rush :excadrill: and Sand Force :garchomp-mega: and Swift Swim :barraskewda: and :swampert-mega:). This means that any Pokemon trying to abuse the Fire damage boost must account for extra speed on their own. In order to do that they would need help from setup moves or items which waste Sun turns or make them weaker to hazards (which Fire is already very weak to in the first place). Torkoal using Heat Rock means it takes all damage from hazards as well which is not good when it's usually the preferred Pokemon to fill the hazard control role and the one setting Sun for the rest of your team. Now you consider the moves accessible to abuse Sun boosts and the best options have recoil (Flare Blitz) or are not 100% accurate (Fire Blast). Second, the debuff to Water only makes damage neutral in essence which is not game breaking by any means; in the Fire vs Water matchup, even though Rain only has 5 turns, it pressures Fire much more and always forces Torkoal in to change it which is easily abusable, so this this not a problem. Fire also famously has an annoying 6 Slot Syndrome where you want to fit a lot onto 1 team but there isn't enough space; Fire teams also lack the support options that other weathers do, for example Sand's SpDef boost and Snow's Aurora Veil and Def boost. Fire is also much worse offensively than Water; Water having some of the most spammable moves like Liquidations from :Barraskewda: and :swampert-mega:, Surging Strikes from :Urshifu-rapid-strike: and more. So even though on paper Sun may make some Pokemon like :charizard-mega-x: and :blaziken: threatening, in reality it's impact is much less than other weathers.

(Written with style.css)
 
Everyone, I have some choice words for a type I feel is perhaps the best type in all of NDM, Fairy, and none of them are kind. It has the tools to take care of every type on the board, including the types it's supposed to be weak against, as well as some crazy utility with Prankster Light Screens, Reflects, and Spikes. It has some of the best sweepers in the game as well, and can even counter hazard pressure with Magic Bounce from Hatterene and Diancie-M. And as for the biggest claim here, there are a surprising abundance of Psychic/Fairy types, leaving Poison dead meat, and the recent S/V addition of Iron Valiant allows Fairy to make a joke out of Steel. In addition, it has almost omnipresence over the entire type chart, and the sheer strength of Dragon means almost every team needs a Fairy. It is a S+ type and I can't wait for the day it rots in low-tier hell with Rock where it belongs.
 

Neko

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counter hazard pressure with Magic Bounce from Hatterene and Diancie-M.
Take note that while Fairy can bounce back Entry Hazards, they struggle to remove them hazards. Some Entry Hazard setters are also unblockable (Dare pivot into Lando-I/Ting-Lu as M.Dia) or catchable (Power Whip Ferro / Scald Pex) too. And if Tspikes are set its very likely Fairy will lose. Also, Hatterene might be ill suited for most NDM Fairy teams due to the sheer number of Steels, much more explosive playstyle of NDM, and because its not Tapu Lele.


Psychic/Fairy types, leaving Poison dead meat,
A.Muk is still great against these Psy/Fairy types in general.


Iron Valiant allows Fairy to make a joke out of Steel.
Always did, ever since last gen :azumarill: :tapu-bulu:. The Fightinium Z Iron Valiant when powered by Tapu Koko is decidedly anti-Steel, though Gholdengo with a Z Crystal can be teched to survive Knock Off, Mega Scizor revenge-kills with Bullet Punch, or on the worst-case scenario, bait the Z then deal with the Steel bird. Koko-Val structures are also missing a key mon, so no Tapu Lele or Azumarill can be detrimental for that Fairy team in other matchups.


In addition, it has almost omnipresence over the entire type chart
It struggles with Poison, Electric, Grass, Ghost, Psychic, and Bug due to the need for highly specialized mons/sets to make it easy. Ground without :azumarill: can be difficult, No one outspeeding threats like M.Lop and Zeraora off the bat can be hard, Scarfers like Greninja, Roaring Moon have anti-Fairy tech that can be difficult to manage.

and the sheer strength of Dragon means almost every team needs a Fairy.
Dragon isnt that strong, namely due to speed issues and overpreparedness for it. And the Fairy there refers to a Fairy type, not a Fairy team....and Kommo-o isnt even that threatening nowadays. Fairy is sort of one of the top three types right now though.

I can't wait for the day it rots in low-tier hell with Rock where it belongs
Help us when that happens because that means powercreep is through the roof by then.


On a different note, what is the consensus with :espathra:, :kingambit:, and :blaziken:? All have the steamroll potential but due to the more offensive nature of NDM or the existence of very bulky guys like :ting-lu: :kingambit: and :celesteela: in case of the ostrich, are they more manageable for you?
 
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On a different note, what is the consensus with :espathra:, :kingambit:, and :blaziken:? All have the steamroll potential but due to the more offensive nature of NDM or the existence of very bulky guys like :ting-lu: :kingambit: and :celesteela: in case of the ostrich, are they more manageable for you?
gonna tell you what electric does vs them

Espathra: Speed and positioning is the key here. Reginald's the only counter I've got, but non-Substitute variants mostly lose to Zeraora. Still hard, especially behind screens. Absolutely the hardest of the three to deal with for my team.

Kingambit: This thing unironically beats 5/6 of my team. At 5 fallen, it even 1v1s Tapu Koko even in terrain with Iron Head into Sucker Punch. It's a good thing that Iron Hands takes like nothing even at +2. It does put some pressure on me to keep Iron Hands healthy, which can be a liability against some dark teams where I really want Iron Hands to counter Meowscarada.

Blaziken: The way to deal with this is to make sure it doesn't set up. Reginald outspeeds at +1, which helps against Protect variants. Iron Hands into Espeed Reginald always beats it even when sashed. Against fighting teams, Koko isn't oneshot by it without a damage boosting item, meaning Iron Hands hard counters it in those cases (though this makes Kommo-o much harder). Funnily enough, I once had a game where one of them got two double protects, forcing me to make a sacrifice both times. I still won the game.
 
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wanted to talk about mono grass a bit having gotten here with basically just mono grass? type is still not great but ndm ladder is so wack so you can get away with anything basically
team i used was p standard if we ignore the fact that it's rilla less (i stand by that, rillaboom is definitely very good but you can find success w.o. it and that just isn't the case for ferro/mvenu) paste
whimsicott is surprisingly okay. like it's not good but it is still decent and i stand by its effectiveness in the dragon/fighting matchup. taunt flame kommo o has basically 0 answers if it boosts and this is a way to ensure it doesn't boost (you don't die to flame either iirc). plus emergency hazard removal is emergency hazard removal, resetting the field in the grass mirror is extremely nice.
ferro and mvenu do ferro/mvenu things. knock is definitely mandatory on ferro as its very good at spreading it and gyro is extremely good into problem mus too so i don't rly see what else you'd run.
im a big cradily believer! mon is good i stand by it. assuages the fire matchup in a way venu cant + you can go spikes on ferro and rocks on crad.
loom and meow i feel like i don't need to explain they do their standard things.

in particular though theres v little flying on the ladder which is soooo nice. flying is just a lost cause of a matchup, even fire is slightly better as there's room to outplay w crad mvenu loom et cetera but flying is just a lost lost cause. other problem mus are steel ice poison psychic ghost (sd weak armor ceruledge is a bitch.) fighting (even with whims you still lose to gzap). grass is legit a lot of fun i'd recommend giving it a whirl sometime, you'll lose elo fs but you'll have a good time playing it.
still wouldn't say it's a good type but it's certainly useable which is nice bc sv grass just isn't
 
Fighting has really just been getting beat into the ground lately. It's been painful to watch. Mega Lucario: Fightings really only true answer to Fairy, banned. Mega Medicham: A really good heavy hitter that, atleast from what I've seen playing with it, isn't very OP. Decent speed tier with 200 attack, but this is a pretty fast paced meta. Still banned. Zamazenta, one of the fastest available mons for fighting, banned.

Right now Fighting really struggles with Flutter Mane, you're kind of forced to run scarf Iron Valiant, Urshifu or the Swords of Justice, because those are the only ones fast and strong enough to outspeed, because otherwise you get swept by Moonblast.

I also find it flat out unfair that Megacham got banned before Mega Mawile, despite having worse STAB, coverage, and a lower attack.

TLDR: Fix fighting
Completely agree. Gamefreak clearly doesn't give a hoot about fighting type, and the bans make it even worse. Was hoping we'd have more fighting mons with higher speed and sp def, so I've had to come up with unorthodox methods to make it work.
 

vesp

match head burning on the frozen ground
is a Contributor to Smogon
How does everyone feel about flying, recently I've found it to be incredibly powerful most bad matchups IE: Ice, electric, rock are incredibly easy to play around, between zap-g outspeeding and ohkoing near every Rock and Ice in the game and landorus+thunderous absorbing electric hits easily and Zard-Y getting a kill everytime it gets in on a slow mon
 
What's up with the Booster Energy ban? I just discovered it today on accident, but it's a completely undocumented ban that's not mentioned literally anywhere on the whole internet except on the server side of Showdown; it doesn't even show up as illegal in the teambuilder (i.e. on the client side).
 

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