Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 17 - Child of the Moon

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:sv/roaring-moon:


In accordance with the last survey and slate results, the council has decided to suspect test Roaring Moon for a second time.

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Roaring Moon has long since garnered major community support, initially being quickbanned shortly after the generation which was viewed as unjust by many, as mechanics such as Booster Energy were incorrectly implemented and the tier was in an extremely chaotic state. Later on in the generation, Roaring Moon received its first suspect test, resulting in a Do Not Unban verdict. Having said this, the banning of Terastalization has had a profound impact on the tier, and we believe there is a chance that it will be manageable this time around.

During its legality, Roaring Moon was a frequent user of Terastalization, most commonly pairing Tera Flying with Arobatics, which would be at full power after consuming Booster Energy. This combination allowed it to easily break through otherwise solid answers such as Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Toxapex, by taking advantage of the Flying coverage or simply its ludicrous power. Other Tera types included Ground, Fairy and Dark, all of which targeted different answers and gave Roaring Moon much diversity. Additionaly, it could use moves such as Taunt to break Dondozo, while also effectively walling the most common Landorus-T variants when paired with Tera Flying, or Roost for general longevity against bulkier teams. Groundium Z + Earthquake could also be used to beat Toxapex without the need to Terastalize, while Dragonium Z + Outrage allowed Roaring Moon to nuke Pokemon such as Great Tusk and Zapdos.

Alternatively, it could effectively wield Choice Band when paired with Mega Charizard Y or Torkoal to activate its Protosynthesis, and either double down for a second Attack boost or use slightly less Attack investment and opt for a Speed boost to effectively wield a Choice Scarf alongside its Choice Band, turning Roaring Moon into a vicious wallbreaker, bolstered by Knock Off's excelent secondary effect.

Despite this, the main reason it was ultimately not unbanned is the setup sweeper set, which was very much reliant on Terastalization to break past most of the tier, either through the sheer power of Tera Flying + Acrobatics or through more specific coverage Tera types. As with all other setup sweepers Terastalization also afforded it many more chances to set up, notably, it could use Tera Flying for free setup infront of Landorus-T and Gliscor, Tera Fairy for Raging Bolt and Tera Ghost for Zamazenta. With the ban of Terastalization, Roaring Moon's strongest attack becomes Knock Off, which is far more manageable in a tier dominated by the likes of Zamazenta and Great Tusk, with Landorus-T being another major stopgap thanks to Intimidate and Roaring Moon's subpar physical bulk. Other common answers include Pokemon such as Terapagos, Mega Scizor, Melmetal, and Urshifu-R. Furthermore, Mega Charizard Y sun teams are extremely linear, and dont have much room for a wallbreaker with no further utility such as Roaring Moon, and most of the previously mentioned answers to Dragon Dance variants can reasonably answer Choice Band variants.


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The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
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Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote and voice their opinion.
 
I think it will be strong but not quite that strong now being able to safely revenge kill it without tera shenanigans and it faces competition from dragapult as a fast dragon z move user as it is unbanned too but i believe it will find its role and become a strong new pokemon in the national dex tier
 
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- mon is completely fine ngl it is naturally checked by at least 1-2 mons on every good team
- any game with clefable or fini means it just gets bricked, not to mention its inability to get past common cores such as lando + zama, lando + melm without significant chip
- its a mon that cant really get away with switching out and going for a sweep the second time because the power drop from losing booster is immense, so more short term answers like balloon gambit are generally sufficient
- a unique issue with its z set is that its completely telegraphed - if u dont see booster, its safe to assume z (ive seen some loaded dice shenanigans and those r just really bad imo), which means a big advantage of z moves in their surprise factor isnt relevant here
- it adds a really important role in being able to outspeed and check zard y and gholdengo while not dying to pursuit

i'd make a longer post or try for reqs but im probably getting busier with irl stuff so idk
 
After using it a little on the current meta, I think moon is a good mon, but definitely not broken. Moon took a huge nerf from the tera ban, Dragon/Dark is a very exploitable type in this meta, and Tera not only took away that type but allowed you to get a third very potent stab with a very strong move on Acrobatics, it fears almost all fairies and has match-up issues against a bunch of top mons, if your team has a Zamazenta moon will never sweep you, Lando chips you for big damage with U-Turn while being able to eat anything you throw at it, truth to be told almost every good team will have natural defenses because every team must prepare for better Dragon and Dark type mons like Ghambit, Pult, Chomp, M-TTar, etc. Looking at it on paper it looks like a very scary mon, min-maxed stats, good move selection, decent ability, but it's a bit one-dimensional, If you see it on sun, it's almost guaranteed to be band, if you don't see it's item being used then it's most likely Z-Move and a BoosterDD without tera is way more manageable. I can see it chilling with Dnite around the B+ or A- but on OU I really believe it's a fine mon to have on the meta, I could be wrong, after all I haven't used it on sun yet and haven't been facing as many as I thought I would but at the moment, it looks ok at the meta.
 
been playnig and facing moon a bit, and honestly, it was very right in its place out of this tier. I do think that giving such a powerful speed option on sun is just not right. Before, Speed Control on Sun was a Grass type that destroyed water types, not Handmade Mega Salamence with U-turn and STAB Koff.
It's hard to take down with Prio, as it takes around 45% from Bullet punch from Max attack, which a lot of scizors don't run, and DD sets are also terrifying. Acro + Knock will Destroy a LOT of the meta which leaves place for Roost, taunt, to prevent being taken down or EQ to hit whatever resists that, Koko, Diancie, KGB, ttar, they all go DOWN so easily It's a toxic presence in a Metagame that has Valiant as its ultimate speed control. its incredible set variety also plays: you might position yourself for Booster speed Choice Band in sun but then it's Booster attack DD and you lose. Rmoon is a Stronger Volcarona as it doesnt need to set up and isn't weak to hazards, and volc is already a big threat. Moon Casually shits on Most teams that can't hit it for SE damage/anymore when running DD roost, and Shits on the entirety of the non-scarf koko tier when Booster speed CB Spamming U-turns. it has coverage for EVERYTHING, and can crack a Z-move out of it. Definetely Uber.
 
Acro + Knock will Destroy a LOT of the meta which leaves place for Roost, taunt, to prevent being taken down or EQ to hit whatever resists that, Koko, Diancie, KGB, ttar, they all go DOWN so easily It's a toxic presence in a Metagame
This is actually a big hinderace on Roaring Moon because it has such big 4MSS with its Dragon Dance set its insane. You need Dragon Dance and Knock Off, meaning you only have 2 somewhat flexible moveslots. You need Acrobatics to threaten Great Tusk, Zamazenta and even Mega Lopunny to an extent, you need Earthquake to hit Kingambit, Mega Tyranitar and Diancie, you need Taunt to stop Alomomola, Toxapex and Ting Lu from being problematic with status moves (Toxic shits on Roaring Moon while Whirlwind is a huge issue for Booster sets). You somewhat need Dragon-STAB to stop getting revenge-killed by Dragonite. All of that just to still get stonewalled by Dondozo, easily revenge-killed by Booster Iron Valiant or even Hawlucha, have barely any setup opportunities against offensive structures that aren't completely passive and overall still requiring a decent amount of wallbreaking to actually sweep since healthy Landorus-T or Great Tusk can trade with it.

As for Choice Band sets, they're strong, but positioning Roaring Moon is much harder than positioning Raging Bolt in my experience especially since it has much less bulk (same physical bulk as Mega Mewtwo Y mind you), and its STAB moves, while strong, are much less spammable than they may seem, even if Fairy-types don't do the best versus Sun structures (although Tapu Fini doesn't really care). You could argue it struggles to fit on Sun since Victini does a very similar job in spamming strong STAB attacks under Sun, while it also has Trick which is extremely useful against Stall; more than Knock Off in my opinion since only Great Tusk or Terapagos is the forme of hazard setting. Roaring Moon also has to deal with Kingambit as a Mega Charizard Y partner, since the latter actually checks Mega Tyranitar as well as the Lati@s Twins, while Roaring Moon only checks the latter UNDER SUN, not without it.

I haven't gotten reqs yet and I'm not even sure if I will, but if I do, I'm unbanning Roaring Moon because it's not that powerful assuming you don't mindlessly sack physical walls like Landorus-T or Melmetal into it who can easily trade with it, while it still despises Fairy-types and Kingambit.
 
Just to quickly throw my hat in the ring before I make a longer post later into this discussion.

Moon is most definitely fine. Booster sets are good but many mons commonly on teams can check it. Also it only gets 1 opportunity to sweep due to booster. Meaning set up is almost always only on HO teams and if not, it usually doesn’t make much progress.

Also Moon is one of the biggest examples of 4MSS. On a choiced set it always has at least u turn and knock off, then can choose between outrage, earthquake, fire fang, iron head. Even with getting iron head it still gets checked many fairies, and fire fang really only deals with ferro and Corv. The set up sets have the same problem just it also wants to fit taunt and acrobatics.

Which also losing the ability to have a stab acrobatics REALLY hurt the set up sets. It no longer has a nuke of a move to throw out at neutral targets. No longer being able to Tera ground and earthquake or Tera fairy Tera blast, also hurt its ability to get past checks.

Final thing here. Please run outrage on banded moon. The moment your opponents fairy/check dies, you just spam it and things explode.
 
actually Sami Roaring moon... outspeeds Valiant. it outspeeds Valiant and just about anything tbh, and Band Uturn in sun is Crazy work when It moves before everything

I happen to get locked verytime I get reqs (Cracked a joke that didn't please the public ye) so I'm yapping aganist rmoon.



Roaring moon is banworthy for multiple reasons:
-It doesn't bring anything to the tier, Sun already has a Bulky-ish Dragon, already has speed control in Booster speed Gtusk and Chlorophyll mons such as Venusaur, as a DD sweeper Draga does th job already, and a Tier doesn't need a DD sweeper to be healthy.
-It is unreasonable to have so easy of a time spamming U-turn in an archetype already having Heavy Hazard control in sun, for a pokémon that's not taking increased damage from hazards when they're up.
-when not Booster or Choiced, Z-Sets are incredibly deadly, picking up KOs on Pokémon that should be able to Trade against at least one of its other sets like Offensive Buzzwole, Great Tusk, Kingambit, Mega Scizor, among others.
-It is way too bulky and easy to switch-in as a sweeper, takin 25% on a ghold sball Highroll, and often, with booster and Z sets, taking resisted unboosted Knock off Damage. Lokix is NOT a force to be recognized in this tier, Moon is NOT "easy revenge killable" and Hawlucha is NOT a Force to be recognized in this tier, it's exclusive to a portion of Terrain teams, and most Terrains don't use it becaus it does't even get the Terrain effects due to its flying type. and you outspeed after 2 DDs. if you run Lucha to RK moon I think it's a Moon Problem.
-it doesnt bring anything Defensively worthy for the tier, it's not a Pult sitchin, it's not a Spinblobker good at doing its job (Ghol eats Flamethrowers, earth powers, eartquakes, headlong rushes all day frfr), not a yard Counter unless roost, or if the Yard has had enough of Ttar and Decides to run Focus Blast (real ones Work up on the switch) It's just not a counter.

btw
220 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Garganacl: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%)
252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Garganacl: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%)

Now I don't wanna start some sort of controversy or change topic, I'm just saying that having moon allowed in the tier is absurd, even though I am fully conscious Garmanitan is More Broken and shouldn't be unbanned.
 
actually Sami Roaring moon... outspeeds Valiant. it outspeeds Valiant
Ok fair enough I forgot how fast Roaring Moon was (I typed all of that out on mobile I thought he was like 105 or something) but EVEN THEN I can tie this back to Roaring Moon's 4MSS; you need Acrobatics to beat Iron Valiant because it can live +1 Booster Energy Earthquake believe it or not:
:iron-valiant: +1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 243-287 (84 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And sometimes Iron Valiant doesn't even need to trade like this, since Choice Specs Vacuum Wave already 2HKOes Roaring Moon, which isn't too hard especially if it takes damage as its setting up, such as against Ferrothorn, or even if it takes a layer of Toxic Spikes, making Choice Specs Iron Valiant not bad at all at revenge-killing Roaring Moon.
-It doesn't bring anything to the tier, Sun already has a Bulky-ish Dragon, already has speed control in Booster speed Gtusk and Chlorophyll mons such as Venusaur, as a DD sweeper Draga does th job already, and a Tier doesn't need a DD sweeper to be healthy.
So what? That's not how suspect tests work, like it doesn't necessarily matter if they're useful for the tier, it's just about if they're healthy and not broken so that they can be unbanned; you could apply this logic to other Pokemon, like Dragapult doesn't bring much to the tier apart from being a Ghost-type, neither does Shedinja or Regieleki, but they're not broken, so they should be unbanned, just like with Roaring Moon (probably). Also, squeezing in Venusaur in this bullet point is crazy NGL.1738091219273.png
It is unreasonable to have so easy of a time spamming U-turn in an archetype already having Heavy Hazard control in sun, for a pokémon that's not taking increased damage from hazards when they're up.
You're acting like U-turn is the thing killing everyone, this is Roaring Moon we're talking about not Lokix.
:samurott-hisui: 220 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 282-334 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Also spamming U-turn is not as free as you think it is, because if the opponent catches onto you doing that, they can punish you with Zapdos's Static, Moltres's Flame Body, Iron Barbs Ferrothorn, Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, Rough Skin Garchomp, or they could simply have hazards and whittle you down slowly combined with the last 3 Pokemon making you easy to revenge-kill via Bullet Punch Mega Scizor or Vacuum Wave Iron Valiant.
-when not Booster or Choiced, Z-Sets are incredibly deadly, picking up KOs on Pokémon that should be able to Trade against at least one of its other sets like Offensive Buzzwole, Great Tusk, Kingambit, Mega Scizor, among others.
This is extremely vague. What Z-crystal in particular? Both Buzzwole and Great Tusk should lose to Booster Acrobatics already so I don't expect you to be using something like Flyinium Z on Roaring Moon, while Kingambit and Mega Scizor, while they're both nuked by +1 Firium Z (off of Fire Fang, and even then the latter is a roll to OHKO Leftovers variants), this adds even more to the 4MSS syndrome I was talking about. If you have Dragon Dance, Knock Off and Fire Fang while holding Firium Z, what on earth do you put in the last slot? Earthquake to break through weakened Toxapex? How do you beat Great Tusk now? If anything, Groundium Z is better since you more reliably OHKO Kingambit, you actually shred through Toxapex now, while you still do good damage to Mega Scizor at +2 with Tectonic Rage. Its not even like this makes Roaring Moon hard to guess against, since if its not Booster Energy on a HO Team, its obviously Z-Move, and on Sun structures its still obviously Choice Band.
-It is way too bulky and easy to switch-in as a sweeper, takin 25% on a ghold sball Highroll, and often, with booster and Z sets, taking resisted unboosted Knock off Damage. Lokix is NOT a force to be recognized in this tier, Moon is NOT "easy revenge killable" and Hawlucha is NOT a Force to be recognized in this tier, it's exclusive to a portion of Terrain teams, and most Terrains don't use it becaus it does't even get the Terrain effects due to its flying type. and you outspeed after 2 DDs. if you run Lucha to RK moon I think it's a Moon Problem.
Yes... the resisted move sure does minimal damage to the resist...
While sure, most priority moves don't nuke Roaring Moon, it still doesn't mean its bulky. It has a good HP stat sure, but its got mediocre defenses, meaning it sets up on less than you think it would reliably:
:corviknight: 252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 218-258 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:ferrothorn: 56+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 222-262 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:ferrothorn: 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (122 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 165-195 (47 - 55.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
:gholdengo: 0 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 218-258 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:gliscor: 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 136-162 (38.7 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:iron-treads: 252 Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 208-246 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:iron-crown: 252 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 156-186 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- approx. 19.9% chance to 2HKO
:kartana: 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 125-147 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:landorus-therian: 0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 196-232 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:moltres: 0 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 142-168 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:ogerpon-wellspring: 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 147-174 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:rillaboom: 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Grassy Terrain: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
:tapu-koko: 0- Atk Tapu Koko U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 136-160 (38.7 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:terapagos-terastal: 252 SpA Terapagos Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 124-148 (35.3 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:volcarona: 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
:zapdos: 0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 142-168 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You're probably thinking, "well these are mostly 3HKOes and 2HKOes thats good for Roaring Moon right?" Well remember that Choice Specs Vacuum Wave Iron Valiant? Notice how almost all of these put Roaring Moon into range of that either by trading or just pivoting. Some of these give Roaring Moon the benefit of the doubt as well, such as assuming Tapu Koko isn't using Dazzling Gleam, or assuming Iron Treads won't use Icium Z, or assuming Gholdengo can't just neuter you with Thunder Wave, etc etc. Roaring Moon isn't free to setup on a lot of these guys especially if there's an Iron Valiant staring it down in the back.
Also saying Hawlucha isn't valid anymore even on Terrain-focused teams has got to be trolling.
220 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Garganacl: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%)
252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Garganacl: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%)
This comparison sucks when you realise that:
- Roaring Moon has 139 Attack while Galarian Darmanitan has 140 Attack
- Roaring Moon is using a move with almost 15 more BP than Galarian Darmanitan is
Even then, Roaring Moon's damage is much less consistent than Galarian Darmanitan's is because the power drops per Knocked Off user, while Galarian Darmanitan's damage is 95% accurate, as well as it being able to hold Choice Band alongside Gorilla Tactics, so I don't get what this comparison is supposed to really show about Roaring Moon being broken.
 
The removal of Terastalization has heavily reduced Roaring Moon’s versatility and power. Tera Flying + Acrobatics allowed it to break past top threats like Great Tusk, Toxapex, and Gliscor, while niche Tera types (Fairy, Ground, Dark) gave it the flexibility to target specific counters. Without Tera, its strongest STAB is Knock Off, making it far easier to handle for common defensive staples like Zamazenta, Landorus-T, and Great Tusk.

Its Dragon Dance set, previously bolstered by Tera for setup opportunities (e.g., Tera Flying vs. Landorus-T or Gliscor, Tera Fairy vs. Raging Bolt), now struggles to sweep reliably. It also lacks the immediate nuke power of Z-Moves, further limiting its setup potential.

Choice Band remains viable, especially on sun teams with Mega Charizard Y or Torkoal enabling Protosynthesis. It can double-dip into Attack boosts or use Speed-boosting spreads to act as a fast wallbreaker. However, sun teams are often linear and face constraints when fitting Roaring Moon, which lacks utility outside of raw damage.

Counters such as Mega Scizor, Melmetal, Urshifu-R, and Intimidate Landorus-T remain reliable answers to most of its sets. Its subpar physical bulk also leaves it vulnerable to revenge killing, while its reliance on Knock Off limits its damage output against items like Rocky Helmet and Heavy-Duty Boots.

Overall, Roaring Moon’s strength is far more manageable in the current meta, and its loss of Tera severely reduces its offensive flexibility and sweeping potential.
 
frankly i think moon is fine. it makes HO better which im not a huge fan of, but that archetype has honestly felt so easy to brick that it's not the worst thing that they get some love. moon is HARD bricked by so many common mons that defensive teams are already using, and is so crippled by its 4mss that i find it difficult to pretend like its a huge problem. is it really, really good? yeah actually. at +2 with booster it WILL win the game solo without unaware mons/dnite, but it is pigeonholed on an archetype that isnt a massive threat otherwise, and so many of its counters are so reliable to slot that it feels like its probably fine. it aggregates contact chip like nothing else, and with status/whirlwind/steel types (if god forbid u drop eq) sitting on it, i feel like HO finally has something that reliably forces progress and can have a big return on a reliable entrance. i think so many balance players got really really comfortable with hrott/pex/tusk/lele which moon demolishes that now people have to adjust their teambuilding structure (especially versus sun teams, since pex/lele no longer hard walls the paradox yard core) to include more defensive structures rather than slapping stedge zama + lele in builder and calling it a day


z sets suck ass btw PLEASE dont use this shit unless ur against me on ladder in which case thanks
 
I made my opinion clear on my opinion on Roaring Moon before in this post! Feel free to check it out!


By both facing and playing with/against R. Moon, the points I have stated in my former post are visible of why R. Moon should be unbanned. What are these points I'm referring too? Given I've explained (almost) everything there. I'll keep it short of everything important:

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Speed: While a speed of 119 is great, it does have its shortcomings. If the R. Moon does have a Z-Crystal and its speed isn't boosted (Protosyntesis) by sun or Booster energy, there are common Pókemon that can outright kill Roaring Moon with their STAB Moves.

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Walls: While its attack is extraourdinary, its movepool kinda has its limits. Not to mention there are lots of viable physical Pòkemon in the tier such as Great Tusk, Landorus-Therian and Ferrothorn (MAINLY Ferrothorn), who don't let R. Moon slide that easily.

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AND
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Defensive Weaknesses:
Being weak to Fairy and Fighting isn't certainly a con that can be swept under the rug. Unfortunately for our dear ancient dragon, NDOU is filled with many Fairy and Fighting Pókemon.

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Hazards: Due to Heavy-Duty Boost on an Item Slot making R. Moon losing potential breaking power, it always carries either a Z-Crystal or Booster Energy. Because of that , it's vulnerable to (Toxic)Spices and Stealth Rock.

However, in this post, I wanna talk about some of the playstyles I played with Roaring Moon:

:Charizard-Mega-Y: SUN :Charizard-Mega-Y:

This si perhaps THE playstyle, where Roaring Moon is the most dangerous: you can give it a Choice Band, boosting its lunacy of an attack into even MORE of a lunacy WHILE having its speed boosted by Protosynthesis because of the sun. While this playstyle is to be reckoned with, it does have its flaws, detrimental ones even. Sadly for Roaring Moon, these cons affet it as well:

:Choice Band: ➜ You're locked into an attack! So the oppponent can let a Pókemon be sacrifised and bring a physical wall or a Fairy type (if you are using Outrage).

:Zapdos: + :Moltres: ➜ They both have abilities that scares R. Moon: Zapdos has Static, having a chance to paralyze R. Moon via contact while Moltres has Flame Body, being able to burn it via contact as well.

:Rocky Helmet:, :Ferrothorn:, :Garchomp: ➜ If Roaring Moon even thinks of hitting someone via contact to anybody who has Rocky Helmet (or an ability similar to Rocky Helmet: Ferrothorn and Garchomp), it pays consequences via 18% loss of health.

:Charizard-Mega-Y: ➜ If this thing dies: Game Over!

:Tyranitar-Mega:, :Pelipper: ➜ Weather wars!

:Samurott-Hisui: ,:Glimmora: ➜ Thoes damn hazards! (Toxic) Spikes, Stealth Rock, etc.

:Dragonium-Z: Z-Crystal :Dragonium-Z:

This is a set that is NOT quite as powerful, but CAN be devastating if looked down upon, even more so behind "Double Screens". However... It has more drawback that the Choice Band set.

:Booster energy: ➜ Because it holds a Z-Crystal, it can boost neither its speed or attack (VIA PROTOSYNTHESIS!)

:Zamazenta:, :Lopunny-Mega:, :Dragapult:, :Tapu Koko: ➜ It gets outspeed by common adversaries and then killed if it hasn't boosted its speed with Dragon Dance.
Bonus: :Urshifu:, :Tapu lele:, :Iron Valiant: ➜ All typical Pókemon having Choice Scarf/Booster Energy can outspeed R. Moon, even if they are normally slower.

:Landorus-Therian:, :Ferrothorn:, :Moltres: ➜ While Dragonium-Z DEFINITELY helps R. Moon to kill a physical wall, it has only ONE possibility. If that gets wasted, well....

:Samurott-Hisui: ,:Glimmora: ➜ I think you know the drill.....

So yeah, these are my reason TO UNBAN Roaring Moon! Feel free to agree/disagree, but at last, I think Roaring Moon deserve its chance, alas!

:Zamazenta: Good luck on the Request, everyone! :Zamazenta:

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Time to share some thoughts. I will quickly analyze two set options, dd/knock/acro/eq booster atk, and banded sun (booster atk or speed, whatever)

1st, lets look at the dd set and compare it with dd pult, a strong presence in the meta, but not quite overwhelming. DD pult is better at breaking bulky mons with its ghostium z, but is kinda weak to sucker punch mind games, doesnt do much against dark types like kingambit or mega ttar (except for burning them while waiting for the inevitable) and both of its stabs have immunities, with a combo like diancie+terapagos fully walling it with zero effort once you dodge the z move, since its ghost stab is a 2 turn move.

Now lets see dd roaring moon. First, we need to acknowledge that it does NOT wallbreak. Mola, corvi, gliscor, msciz, dondozo, ting lu are all mons which this set does not get past, at least not without being severely toxic stalled. However, I think this mon will ABSOLUTELY KILL offense archetypes (not HO, but the pivoty mlop, mdiancie, koko etc builds). After a dd, there is NOTHING these structures can do against it, and I think here lies the problem. It is a mon so fast that it forces you to directly interact with it and tank a +1 proto attack from it. Outspeeding it is next to impossible (I was farming moons with scarf meowscarada duringn the last suspect test), and it resists the most common priority moves. What would stop it on such a team? Mscizor, if it is a uturn variant, an intact zamazenta, and the bulkier pivots like lando and mola which are already overloaded in these structures. I think this will be its centralising aspect which may deserve the ban, and I do not think the suspect test will showcase it properly, as everyone is running some kind of bulk for moon during the suspect ladder. Also, some great parters for it include mdiancie, which chips most of moon’s checks, and tapu fini as a fairy type which can also add terrain support. Moon only really needs 1-2 turns of misty terrain to run away with games (for example by setting up on a mola). Fini may also provide setup opportunities with trick choice locking.

Now the sun variant. In sun, moon may be hard to fit but I think it pulls its own weight. Having an offensive mon which outspeeds mdiancie and does not fear mttar, the two most accessible sun counters, is quite worth it. Also, looking at the mons which wall sun moon (pun intended), most of them just give free turns to zardy, bolt, or tusk (in the case of ting lu). So I fear that sun will go more into the “click your strongest stab until everything dies” direction.

Laddering may change my opinion and I am working on some moon builds, but for now I would lean towards BAN.
 
Time to share some thoughts. I will quickly analyze two set options, dd/knock/acro/eq booster atk, and banded sun (booster atk or speed, whatever)

1st, lets look at the dd set and compare it with dd pult, a strong presence in the meta, but not quite overwhelming. DD pult is better at breaking bulky mons with its ghostium z, but is kinda weak to sucker punch mind games, doesnt do much against dark types like kingambit or mega ttar (except for burning them while waiting for the inevitable) and both of its stabs have immunities, with a combo like diancie+terapagos fully walling it with zero effort once you dodge the z move, since its ghost stab is a 2 turn move.

Now lets see dd roaring moon. First, we need to acknowledge that it does NOT wallbreak. Mola, corvi, gliscor, msciz, dondozo, ting lu are all mons which this set does not get past, at least not without being severely toxic stalled. However, I think this mon will ABSOLUTELY KILL offense archetypes (not HO, but the pivoty mlop, mdiancie, koko etc builds). After a dd, there is NOTHING these structures can do against it, and I think here lies the problem. It is a mon so fast that it forces you to directly interact with it and tank a +1 proto attack from it. Outspeeding it is next to impossible (I was farming moons with scarf meowscarada duringn the last suspect test), and it resists the most common priority moves. What would stop it on such a team? Mscizor, if it is a uturn variant, an intact zamazenta, and the bulkier pivots like lando and mola which are already overloaded in these structures. I think this will be its centralising aspect which may deserve the ban, and I do not think the suspect test will showcase it properly, as everyone is running some kind of bulk for moon during the suspect ladder. Also, some great parters for it include mdiancie, which chips most of moon’s checks, and tapu fini as a fairy type which can also add terrain support. Moon only really needs 1-2 turns of misty terrain to run away with games (for example by setting up on a mola). Fini may also provide setup opportunities with trick choice locking.

Now the sun variant. In sun, moon may be hard to fit but I think it pulls its own weight. Having an offensive mon which outspeeds mdiancie and does not fear mttar, the two most accessible sun counters, is quite worth it. Also, looking at the mons which wall sun moon (pun intended), most of them just give free turns to zardy, bolt, or tusk (in the case of ting lu). So I fear that sun will go more into the “click your strongest stab until everything dies” direction.

Laddering may change my opinion and I am working on some moon builds, but for now I would lean towards BAN.
disagree with the offense point, i think they can fit a ton of counterplay beyond simply scarf meow in:
- offense staples such as id zama, lando, terapagos, melmetal, defensive great tusk
- any msciz should win, considering that +4 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 271-321 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it should never ever get to +4 anyway), and +3 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 255-301 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it should also never get to +3)
- balloon kingambit fits on offense
- priority such as espeed dnite, msciz, gambit sucker, weavile, mlop, mmedi when weakened (such as if uturned on by lando or hazard chipped)
- ting lu, with red card or helmet can fit on offense, and so can ferrothorn running gyro, body press, or even twave and leech can be enough to stop a sweep
- tapu fini is on the rise, and valiant can check z dragon
- one funny point is that knock off is weakened vs zs and megas so some random mon running z like chomp can live +1 booster knock

As with any offensive sweeper the onus is on you to preserve your checks, and the fact remains that most pokemon can win after weakening their checks. Roaring moon has both too many checks and is not good enough at breaking past them such that this shouldn't be a big point against it. It may force pivot spam offense to change, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and absolutely does not kill the archetype

As for sun, I think it's already quite pressed for teamslots. Moon competes with both gambit and bolt, which I would say are better most of the time. And the reward you get from fitting it is not unreasonable - Choiced mons want a good offensive typing, and dark/dragon really isn't that spammable, especially outrage which can easily thud into fairies or steels. You are compromising a lot of defensive utility by fitting this mon on a sun team in exchange for imo insufficient benefit. The speed control aspect of it is probably the biggest benefit since sun does run quite a few slow mons, but I don't think this alone makes it broken. Sun is already a clicker playstyle anyway, and if anything i think moon variants are easier to beat
 
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I can't be bothered to write some giga yap so let me just put some brief thoughts
Av moon: please don't use this lol what
Band: really good, don't run ada plz
Scarf:also really really good ada is fine but I'd still run jolly
Booster DD: it's alright but I'd prefer
Z DD: the big guy that's actually controversial he's honestly fine NGL
Edit: roost boots is also pretty good

This concludes the least yappy post that will be in this whole thread!
 
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too many checks and is not good enough at breaking past them
what the heck kind of Roaring moon are you playing


btw most of your arguments prove that countering Roaring moon is extremely set-reliant, DD destroying CB's Counters, CB Bullying DD's counters, and you can't just guess the set when you see it. Imo Roaring moon is the opposite of the spirit expressed during tera sus era "HO is wayy above all" because it's clearly a HO mon Hardly Checkable for the amount of movepool it gets thanks to its insane stats. So erm, keep it Uber
 
I may or may not get reqs, but I did test out some Roaring Moon sets, Primarily Roost DD with Groundium Z. This set was good against more defensive teams if they didn't have a bird, if they did though, it was kinda awkward. Also did pretty well into offensive teams if it could set up.

Roaring Moon is a fine, if powerful mon. Most teams should account for it. Its been said above, but it wants all of dd, knock, e-quake, taunt and acrobatics, with fire fang, roost, iron head and u-turn also wanted. Pokemon such as ting lu, clefable, ferrothorn, corviknight, tapu fini, m-scizor, kartana, landorus-t, gliscor and melmetal (can take one +1 booster e-quake) taking it basically no matter what. Other pokemon such as alomomola, great tusk, zamazenta, kingambit and m-ttar taking it on depending on the set. Moltres and zapdos can trade there boots for statusing it, which immensly cripples it.

And that was just the defensive answers, offensive answers are also able to beat it decently well. M-lopunny, dragapult, tapu koko, weavile, scarf lele, booster valiant, scarf urshifu and scarf kartana all can outspeed it without priority, and other such as m-medi, weavile (again), m-scizor, m-lopunny, dragonite and valiant can use priority to revenge kill it.

DD sets I think are best, they are able to leverage powerful knock offs while having the initial oomph they need to overwhelm more defenisve structures. However, it usually has to use booster energy, as while Z sets are fine enough, you can really feel the damage loss. This thus means it has to stay in to sweep, meaning phazing ruins its sweep very much. Also has to fit as much coverage as it wants.

CB sets definetely aren't bad persay, but they struggle with passive damage a lot. Most fairy types can take it on because iron head is extremely rare (good luck hitting kingambit now lmao), so they can usually stop it in its tracks. This means pokemon such as iron valiant, clefable and tapu fini completely wall it and force it to become a u-turn bot, which a pokemon such as ferrothorn, zapdos, or moltres, can take advantage of. It also hates its dragon stab being outrage, meaning that it locks itself in and is very prone to getting revenge killed or steel types using it as an entry point to start hitting.

Every other set is mediocre imo, and not banworthy in the slightest. If your struggling immensly with AV moon or Scarf Moon, I think you have bigger fish to fry before moon even enters the picture.

I also had this happen to me on ladder.

1738137470445.png

Thought I was screwed and was just sacking iron valiant, but nope, it lived. (btw, this was speed booster that was forced to switch out, it got the literal minimum roll).
220 Atk Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 270-318 (93.4 - 110%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

btw most of your arguments prove that countering Roaring moon is extremely set-reliant, DD destroying CB's Counters, CB Bullying DD's counters, and you can't just guess the set when you see it.
This is simply untrue, if its not booster, its either a Z DD set or a CB set, and quite a few of the answers overlap. Nevermind the fact that CB only really fits on sun. None of them are really going to be getting through ferrothorn, corviknight or m-scizor unless it uses a gimmicky firium z set with fire fang, which is basically useless otherwise. CB is insanely chip prone, hating any sort of helmets, iron barbs, rough skin, or contact abilities and needs to be paired with hazard control (which sun is already strapped for slots so gl fitting it and having a defensive backbone). DD again, needs way too many moves to work. If it wants to break through tusk reliably, it needs acrobatics, but then it can't fit taunt to make sure alomomola doesn't stop it in its tracks. If it says that its going to drop e-quake because of that, then kingambit and m-ttar walls it completely. It simply needs too many moves to function without something big stopping it.
 
It simply needs too many moves to function without something big stopping it.
Does that mean it's Balanced and healthy? nah I don't think so. Mega kangaskhan can't break Dengo or Dozo or Iron Hands or Buzzwole yet it's the brokenest mon in existence after Primals and Mray and mega mewtwos. "something big stopping it" also are mons that you won't find in every Archetype, and forcing a mon into an Archetype just to check one mon is not healthy. You want to play HO? better play Balloon kingambit or it's Bye-bye. Keep it healthy and switch it in healthy on the Rmoon, and you lose if god forbid it was Firium- or Fightinium-Z when you expected Booster.
 
Does that mean it's Balanced and healthy? nah I don't think so. Mega kangaskhan can't break Dengo or Dozo or Iron Hands or Buzzwole yet it's the brokenest mon in existence after Primals and Mray and mega mewtwos.
This is an incredibly poor comparison. Mega Kangaskhan has seismic toss to break through a lot of things by dealing 200 damage per turn, power up punch to easily get to +2, and sucker punch in order to deal with faster mons and ghost types.
"something big stopping it" also are mons that you won't find in every Archetype, and forcing a mon into an Archetype just to check one mon is not healthy. You want to play HO? better play Balloon kingambit or it's Bye-bye. Keep it healthy and switch it in healthy on the Rmoon, and you lose if god forbid it was Firium- or Fightinium-Z when you expected Booster.
These pokemon you should be using on these archetypes, and I gave multiple that could either 1. Take on all of Roaring Moon's sets no matter what, 2. Could take on most of Roaring Moon's sets and if you paired them together then they can take on all of its sets, or 3. Take on roaring moon temporarily in order to cripple it. Nevermind the fact that I gave offensive answers as well. As for HO, well, they should be offensively pressuring it as much as possible.

Let's take a look at the HO sample team. Its options to deal with Roaring moon are:
CC great Tusk to beat it unless its packing Acrobatics
Mega Diancie to revenge kill it easily with moonblast
Focus Sash Dragapult to revenge kill it with Dragon Darts
Flyinium Z Dragonite to revenge kill it

You could even swap out black glasses for Air Balloon on Kingambit if you really wanted to, but the HO sample is pretty good against it without even accounting for it.

Also theres a little pop up that says

The opposing Roaring Moon used its Booster Energy to activate Protosynthesis!
The opposing Roaring Moon's Attack was heightened!


That usually shows that it its booster energy. If it doesn't show up, guess what? Its probably a Z move set. And as stated before, fitting Firium Z is incredibly difficult since you need to drop something important, whether that be e-quake, acrobatics or taunt. Fightinium Z is a meme, nobody in there right mind is using that to snipe Balloon Gambit or smthing. And as stated, how are you fitting it on the moveset? M-diancie now can revenge kill you (+1 fightinium Z brick break doesn't even have full odds to KO, and they can simply just not mega as they switch in to easily tank it). And many other pokemon that I already stated can still wall you like M-scizor.
 
CC great Tusk to beat it unless its packing Acrobatics
Mega Diancie to revenge kill it easily with moonblast
Focus Sash Dragapult to revenge kill it with Dragon Darts
Flyinium Z Dragonite to revenge kill it
It's a good thing that DD Roaring with Rocks up is just not a thing.
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 228-268 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 412-486 (170.9 - 201.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 388-458 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 918-1080 (289.5 - 340.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

that's one (1) DD up which it can get vs the Kingalbit in the Sample, that is not carrying Low kick.
 
It's a good thing that DD Roaring with Rocks up is just not a thing.
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 228-268 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 412-486 (170.9 - 201.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 388-458 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 918-1080 (289.5 - 340.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

that's one (1) DD up which it can get vs the Kingalbit in the Sample, that is not carrying Low kick.
Hmm, I wonder if there wasn't a pokemon on that team whose entire job was to keep off rocks, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Yeah man, idk what to tell you. If you are allowing it to get to +1 and not keeping rocks off, you prob deserved to lose. And again, that was just a sample team made before roaring moon even dropped. Gambit can at the very least threaten it out with +2 iron head for the OHKO or raw iron head into sucker punch doing 70% min to it. (booster energy e-quake doesn't even come close to OHKO'ing).
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Hmm, I wonder if there wasn't a pokemon on that team whose entire job was to keep off rocks, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Yeah man, idk what to tell you. If you are allowing it to get to +1 and not keeping rocks off, you prob deserved to lose. And again, that was just a sample team made before roaring moon even dropped. Gambit can at the very least threaten it out with +2 iron head for the OHKO or raw iron head into sucker punch doing 70% min to it. (booster energy e-quake doesn't even come close to OHKO'ing).
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bit by bit.
there are plenty of Pokémon that can get rocks if you lead diancie, by threatening OHKO T1, or by Ignoring Magic bounce.
idk if you know what I meant, You DD on the KGB that does not have much more than Supreme Overlord 1
Rmoon at 30% Health still destroys you becausse it got to 30% by defeating the KGB.
You're supposed to DD on the unboosted KGB not EQ it raw m8. this is about the absolute Menace roaring is to Standard Good HO teams that look prepared to it.
but the HO sample is pretty good against it without even accounting for it.
Turns out it isn't. that's my point.
 
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