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Kyo

In Limbo
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0889Zamazenta-Hero.png



Hello and welcome to the third National Dex suspect test of Generation 9 Scarlet and Violet!
For those who may be unfamiliar, Zamazenta's hero form has been on the council radar for some time now. It is a new addition to National Dex as of Gen 9, and we have been paying close attention to how it compares to the more traditional threats this tier has to offer. Zamazenta has suffered from low usage for much of the generation. However, we want to reiterate that usage rates are not a direct reflection of capability in a given tier as evidenced by Zama's A+ viability ranking. With this in mind, the National Dex OU Council has decided to suspect test Zamazenta for the following two-week period.

[Zamazenta Pro-Ban]
Zamazenta has established its role as one of the strongest and fastest STAB Tera wallbreakers in the tier. In addition to its incredible power with a choice band, Zama is a capable body press sweeper with iron defense bolstering its natural bulk to monumental levels.
- With its premier choice band set, Zamazenta can activate Tera fighting and plow through some of the tier's bulkiest defensive walls like Skarmory and Great Tusk. Many soft fighting-resists utilized by offense teams like Tornadus-Therian, Tapu Koko, bulky Volcarona, and rain Zapdos can be 2HKO'd by close combat on switch in.
- Bulkier answers that are not taken down by close combat still have to be wary of Zama's many coverage options. Banded wild charge can 2HKO Toxapex or Slowbro, ice fang smashes Landorus-Therian or tank Garchomp, and crunch rounds out coverage against ghost types who are all 2HKO'd with the exception of Annihilape.
- Zamazenta boasts the second highest speed tier in National Dex's VR behind Dragapult. This notably outpaces Mega-Lopunny, an extremely relevant revenge killer choice, that falls flat against Zama's speed and bulk. The Top Dawg ™ also conveniently resists Kingambit's sucker punch which is the strongest form of priority in the tier.
- While already being one of the best choiced breakers available, Zamazenta can alternatively opt for an iron defense + body press sweeper set. These often use crunch for coverage against ghost types, substitute to avoid status, and pack one of several defensive Tera types such as fairy or water to make revenge killing more difficult. Tera steel can drop a move in favor of iron head to hit fairy types hard and break down unaware Clefable.
- Dauntless Shield gives Zamazenta an immediate defense boost the first time it enters the field, and many teams struggle to find counterplay after one iron defense. Team support options like toxic spikes and pursuit trapping can help Zama defeat some of its would-be counters.

[Zamazenta Anti-Ban]
- Choice band sets suffer from minor 4 moveslot syndrome as Zamazenta would often like to run iron head for fairy types and even stone edge to hit bulky Zapdos. Fitting any of these into Zama's build requires accepting weaker coverage against other defensive answers.
- Choice band sets can also be heavily prediction reliant in certain matchups. Zama loses significant momentum when it attacks into a defensive answer with the wrong move. Teams with certain ghost types like dragon dance Dragapult and nasty plot Gholdengo are especially capable of abusing incorrect prediction, or they can sack another mon to close combat for a setup opportunity.
- Iron defense Zamazenta is typically less reliable than the raw power of choice band, especially against stall/fat, and it has more notable bad matchups. It lacks immediate power and can be stonewalled by haze Toxapex, iron defense Corviknight/Skarm/Tera fairy Garganacl, and certain unaware mons.
- Pure fighting type has a relatively poor defensive profile aside from the dark resistance leaving Zamazenta weak to certain revenge killers like scarf Tapu Lele or Iron Valiant. Iron defense sets are forced to use up the Tera slot in most matchups.

Suspect Test Information:
  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
GXEMinimum games
8430
83.831
83.632
83.433
83.234
8335
82.836
82.637
82.438
82.239
8240
81.841
81.642
81.443
81.244
8145
80.846
80.647
80.448
80.249
8050

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9ZM. For example, I could sign up as ND9ZM Kyo.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Zamazenta will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until April 5th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
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    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM me, Jho, or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
 
I feel like I am gonna go with UNBAN for zamazenta. I have used it (both the sets, cb and ironpress) and there are many reasons why I feel like its not broken.
So, starting off with cb...
:ss/zamazenta:
Zamazenta @ Choice Band
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Ice Fang/Iron Head
- Wild Charge/Stone Edge

1. The main problem with this set is as the four move-slot syndrome, where it really would like to have all the coverage moves of Iron Head (for clefable), Wild Charge (for bulky waters), Stone Edge (for zap, volc and to an extent to straight up OHKO torn-t) and Ice fang (for lando and other miscellaneous stuff like chomp).
The point here is sure, it can be a great wallbreaker in a favorable match-up but it won't be able to do it consistently.

2. It has sufficient checks, not full fledged counters but it can be checked and played around. What I mean by that is every kind of team can check it to an extent. Example, offensive teams have torn-t to stop it from spamming cc, bo/balance teams is gonna have pex and some ground to take wild charge (as Zama cannot OHKO with a single wild charge), ho has pult and in a pinch koko/tera fairy or tera ghost cyclizar.
So we can say that zamazenta is not able to straight up steamroll teams.

3. It has counterplay. Locked into cc means that stuff like np ghol, z dd pult, bu annihilape can take advantage of it. And locked into other coverage moves can also be taken advantage of.

Overall, I feel like this set lacks the necessity to be broken.

Now, ironpress
:ss/zamazenta:
Zamazenta @ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Water/ Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Crunch
- Substitute/Rest

This set is tbh really gimmicky and very mu dependent. Stuff like pex, and unaware clod shuts this set down hard. It is extremely inconsistent and even if u somehow set-up to a sweeping level, there are faster special attackers that can revenge kill like scarf lele, pult, scarf/protosynthesis speed wake, among others (given that sub is not in place).

So overall I would like to conclude saying that Zamazenta is far from broken :- it has checks, it can be played around, it has counterplay and it suffers heavily from four move-slot syndrome. Based on the aforementioned reasons, I am sticking with UNBAN for this one and I don't think that decisions gonna change.
 
Last edited:

sealoo

PaulGod
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Moderator
I’m of the opinion that Zamazenta should not get banned.

While the speed tier and power are incredible, I feel like there is more than enough ways to account for this mon in builder unlike something like Walking Wake. Offense has 2 great Ghost types, Landorus-T, and Pokémon that can always take one hit like Tornadus-T, Iron Valiant, Tapu Koko, or revenge killing it with scarf Tapu Lele.

Meanwhile any fatter or balanced builds carry Toxapex who can come in on ID Press & CB.

Zama is great but imo not banworthy rn :blobthumbsup:
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
0/10 suspect for not using Who Let the Dogs Out national dex is in shambles /s

To not make this a one liner, I am personally leaning Zamazenta is ok. Yeah its a silly beatstick but it really only feels dumb in the offense v offense mirror. Against fat teams it is fine but most fat teams can reliably deal with CB or Iron Defense. Yeah, it can do work with prediction, but prediction is a two way street. In the offense v offense mu, Zamazenta feels like the lesser of multiple evils plaguing those games. Yeah, getting your Lando T chunked a bit by having to pivot into Zama sucks, but compared to having to deal with mons like Pult and Kingambit I would rather have to deal with Zama. Currently leaning no ban, but I could be convinced. I just think right now there are bigger fish to try than Zamazenta.
 
Another double sided argument for a ban? Didn’t expect this. I’m gonna go with Do not ban. Zamazenta while being a pure fighting type can be bolstered by tera types isn’t really unheard of for some Pokémon but it’s speed makes it amazing for revenge killing most Pokémon like some of the base 135 tier such as lopunny-mega and friends. It’s an amazing wallbreaker as stated but a wallbreaker that requires heavy prediction reliance which isn’t always a good gamble. Pursuit trapping some of its checks makes it seem like it’s something that’s unhealthy but other threats like their threats being Pursuitdef such as mega medicham. On top of that it hungers greatly for tera to do more since iron press with fighting typing isnt very good and gets revenged killed by scarf lele and fini as well as draco meteor dragapult after being chipped. All and all I feel that zamazenta is a great mon to have and is just a great mon in general.
 
Ok so I used to be on the fence on whether or not this mon was broken, but after running a few calcs I realized just how stupid this mon is.
first cb, the set that requires the least brainpower and least team support:
(made this a spoiler bc there is an unholy number of calcs)
Bulky "resists":
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 148-175 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (good zapdos spread)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-250 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 318-376 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 96-113 (25.1 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (54.4 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-176 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 140-165 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (idk what spread this mon runs this is j the first spread smogon suggested)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Tapu Fini: 137-162 (39.8 - 47%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (again suggested spread)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Tapu Fini: 206-244 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 167-197 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 180-214 (41.6 - 49.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 182-215 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 198-234 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 277-326 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 134-158 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 163-192 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 332-392 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

"Bulky" neutral mons:
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 238-282 (56.6 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 294-346 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 8+ Def Scizor-Mega: 250-296 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 340-400 (79.8 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 212-250 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 204-242 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 348-410 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive "resists"
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 212-250 (75.4 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 176-208 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 201-237 (69.5 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 192-227 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this assumes multiscale is broken)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Tera Normal Dragonite: 384-454 (118.8 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (multiscale active)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham-Mega: 212-250 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 213-251 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 263-310 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 185-218 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (naïve)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Latios-Mega: 206-243 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (hasty)
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

cc immunities:
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 180-212 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 314-370 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 228-270 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 260-306 (82.5 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 149-176 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 167-197 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
tldr almost everything in the tier dies to 2 cc's, everything that dosen't gets 2hko'd/put into cc range by either crunch, wild charge or ice fang. The only exceptions are buzzwole (which is shit), clef (also shit), max defense bold zapdos (shit spread), max def clod (shit mon+shit spread), slowbro (gets pursuited into range, roll in zama's favor otherwise), ape (broken and will prob get banned in the future), and lele can switch into cc once ig, if its at 100% and rocks aren't up (nice 4x resist). Also every mon that isn't ohko'd is outspeed w/o scarf bc why not. Also also this is only one of 3 viable sets bc why not

Next is Z + Howl. This set largely recreates the ohko potential of cb, but also has a nuke to kill most switchins to cb.
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 288-340 (94.7 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Tapu Fini: 398-470 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 318-376 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 618-728 (170.7 - 201.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

it can also run iciumz, can't kill pex but can still snipe torn and can now snipe zapdos and non una clod
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Subzero Slammer (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 424-500 (117.1 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Subzero Slammer (120 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 424-500 (123.6 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Subzero Slammer (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 554-652 (119.6 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Subzero Slammer (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 364-430 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Finally idpress. While this set requires the most team support, it can often end games on the spot after whatever ghost/fairy/unaware is gone. After an id it outspeeds and 2hko's everything while surviving every hit. You can also run crunch but imo it's ass j run sub protect to pp stall hurricane and get free lefties and run kgambit/weav/ttar for pursuit, helps alot that these mons are incredible in their own right.

In conclusion this is a v easy BAN. This mon just kills and outspeeds everything, maybe its fine w/o tera but I'm not voting dnb j to have this thing turn out to be broken regardless of it down the road. Also didn't touch on defensive calcs bc this post is alr long enough as is but yeah it lives like every hit bar smth like tera lele psychic, idpress also ofter teras into water/steel to resist everything bc why not. Didn't bother w/ neutral offensive mons and supereffective cc calcs bc u can j assume how those would look.
 

LBN

is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UPL Champion
Personally, I'm leaning towards a DNB vote myself aswell. Now i'll be the first to admit, this mon kinda nutty. I'll be visualizing what mons check what set, and with little explanation besides if it's tera reliant for the task.

CB Zama (Primarily moves CC/Crunch/Wild Charge/Ice Fang) (Ice fang can be opted for Psychic Fangs, Stone edge, or Iron Head, but these are suboptimal in most cases, and see low use)

Defensive Checks


Do note, some of these will get blasted by coverage, i'm mainly taking point of CC, which is the primary button you want to spam with this thing. If they force Zama to predict to take them out, they make the list. (Zapdos aside he just dies in 2, but Static basically is playing with fire)
  • Tera Fairy Garg stonewalls very easily, especially if it's curse or IDBP. (Also checks Dragapult, Weavile, Baxcalibur, and just a huge chunk of the tier)
  • Buzzwole additionally walls it easily, and it's coverage for it does the least compared to anything else on this list (Also checks Mlopp, Kart, and more)
  • Cresselia eats CC for days, and sets up in it's face w Tera Poison CM. Coverage does roughly 60%, but psychic fangs is very close to being unused. (Also checks Tusk, Lando-T, NP Gholdengo and more)
  • Mega Venusaur can switch in easily, but it's vulnerability to hazards is the easiest to exploit on this list, so be mindful. (Also checks Koko, Valliant, etc)
  • Clef can freely run Helmet, making it probably the best at this job. Tera CC does like 45 on average, which is huge but clef's longevity means keeping it at full isn't too hard. (Also checks Garg, Mlopp, Chomp, and pairs very well w Kingambit)
  • Mew has better speed than Cress in exchange for worse bulk, so respecting Zama a little more is needed. Alternatively, get a boost and you wall it way easier.
  • Lando-T and Gliscor are dead to rights by Ice Fang, but some sets will drop this coverage, so they get the nod regardless.
  • Zapdos just dies to 2 CCs this is non negotiable, but a para'd Zama is a dead Zama, so it's on you to decide if you think that's a check or not
  • Annihilape struggles w coverage since it invests 0 into phys def, but being a ghost neutral to crunch and not getting 2hko'd gets a mention
  • Slowbro and Pex get smacked by Wild charge, and that's a constant. However, Zamazenta can't freely CC or these 2 will be able to stonewall it. Wild Charge does not OHKO, and Regen lets them stay in the game if you call wrong. Though, that wont take them out of 2 CCs range.
  • Skeledirge and Gholdengo are our resident Ghosts, but do note Crunch is a free claim for their lives. Though, Tera Fairy on either can wall it, so do take note of that.
Notably, most of these have to respect to posibility of coverage. However, Zamazenta does have to make that correct call, or it just wasted time and PP, both things it's not great with. In such a hazards focused meta, Zamazenta's lack of longevity means it won't necessarily have all game to fire attacks off till it gets one right. Overall, this shows it has plenty to pick from, with many of these also handling other threats in the tier. However, these are vulnerable to coverage w prediction, so Zama becomes more prediction reliant.

Z-Howl Zama (CC, Wild Charge, Ice Fang/Crunch) (Electrium or sometimes but very rarely Icium)
Defensive checks


If Zamazenta breaking them is conditional, they make the list
  • Tera Fairy Garg, especially with Curse or IDBP, wins the 1v1 easily. Unconditional, Zama loses.
  • Venusaur also wins this, even with Icium-Z. Unconditional, Zama loses.
  • Buzzwole can actually win this 1v1, but it only does so as long as Zama has been forced out before. With Dauntless, it's a trade. Context will decide if that's a W for Zama or an L
  • Clefable just barely takes a Z wild charge into Wild Charge at +1 from full, and if your slightly chipped you can opt to Twave instead, effectively neutering it for the game.
  • Tangrowth can easily facetank any shot from Zama and threaten a pseudo OHKO w stun spore, effectively making it go from A+ to D-
  • Skeledirge can stomach both Crunch and Z-Electric with them doing roughly 40 to max hp 0 def, so slight invest will make it a surefire deal. Just Hit Willo-O-Wisp = D
  • Lando-T relies on no Ice fang, if it's ice fang you can leave with a toxic or the chip damage equivalent of one turn of salt cure. (Unless your goat Flyinium-Z then u just trade if you put minor investment to live from full, defensive just eats one)
Overall, some pokemon can technically beat this with lord prediction, like Mew and Cress, but those are the typa things like a sucker war levels of get this shit right, so i'm not gonn count them, but it's possible. Gholdengo can technically also eat a +1 hit if its defensive and twave back, but your not keeping that gholdengo afterwards. Overall, this set falls flat on its most dedicated checks, and weeds out the half assers. That said, it's also far, far more immediately weak, with the issues of CB's prediction reliance exchanged for a dirth of OHKOs on neutral targets, Fat Chomp, Big Tusk, and even Mega Medicham of all things is living a Z move from full, which says a lot honestly. You can't even OHKO a Serperior. You are weak to start. Of course, you must respect CB the first time around, and if you find out to the contrary, or the team is public, you kinda can just not respect this thing.

IDBP Zama (Iron Defense, Body Press, Rest, Crunch/Wild Charge) (Tera Steel most often) (Chesto/Covert Cloak is never used but this sounds good on it)
087_2.png

Honestly if you live boosted body presses you probably qualify lmfao this set sucks

I am not going through all of these, but you get the idea. The idea of this set is supposed to snowball vs offensive teams stacking physical attackers, but this idea is restricted by the fact that uh, we got a lot of fighting resists. These can all tank body presses, some better than others. The fact that mega medicham survives a +6 press should spell out the issues with this set just perfectly. He just ain't that strong w this set. Too passive, invites in a ton of pokemon you usually beat otherwise like Pex and Slowbro in exchange for what? Beating Buzzwole? it just doesn't add up for me. Of course, i know a lot of these pokemon both are either low on the VR or aren't on it. But to that I say, and with this whole suspect really, this format is still heavily unexplored. Some of these pokemon are almost entirely untouched despite being good, like Mega Venusaur. This Cresselia set was discovered like a week and a half ago. This tier is in it's budding stages and tons of things have yet to be seen, for example, this tier hasn't had a true team tour yet, and I know many builders are holding off building until then. Even as i'm writing this i think of random tech or mon combos that might be viable.

Of course, i haven't touched on the universal offensive checks. These pokemon do not switch in, they force out. Can they either take a shot and kill it back, take shot(s) and set up, or just outspeed and smash it.


Gyarados is a pre mega only case, unless they lock into crunch vs your HO for whatever reason. Of course, you'll notice how limited some of these are. But that's Zamazenta's nature, an offense killer. This pokemons blazing speed, solid power and huge bulk let's it facetank and trade vs most offensive threats. That's its main draw. Not all of these resists fancy taking a CC, looking at you Latios, but a chunk of these can (and by can i mean need to) have screens backing them up, from either Grimmsnarl or the Koko on the teams Valliant, Latios and Hawlucha love.

Overall I find Zamazenta fine. This pokemon has varied, viable responses both offensively and defensively, and while a capable breaker, I don't find it among the ranks of Walking Wake and other more heinous threats. You don't have to bend over backwards to check it either, pokemon who check this naturally check other things like Garg checking Pult and Buzzwole checking Tusk and Kartana. We have a good amount of means to branch out for viable counterplay, and i think using something like Mega Venusaur fat hurts less than seeing someone load Heal Bell Mega Altaria for Walking wake in a tour. (Yes this actually happened). It's checks are poised to naturally get better with more results over time, and it's current position lacks options for optimization itself z moves aside. I'm fully aware a chunk of these are UR rn, but most of these URs have tour replays and support backing their viability, aswell as C-/C+ ranks likely being introduced next slate. Zamazenta's checks do have a bad habit of being conditional or fake, but i think there's enough to make it just fine enough.
 
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In my opinion, Zamazenta is only very threatening on paper. In practice, it rarely lives up to its "broken" hype.

One of the most quoted points when one talks about Zamazenta's "brokenness" is its Speed. In theory, this criticism holds some value, given that its max speed of 412 outspeeds almost all Pokemon, outrunning even fast Pokemon like Mega Lopunny, Tapu Koko and Weavile. However, when observing the metagame more closely, one may easily see that there are definitely relevant Pokemon that can outrun Zamazenta. This includes Iron Valiant under Electric Terrain or holding Booster Energy, as well as Scarf Tapu Lele. In the metagame, there is even a Pokemon which naturally outspeeds Zamazenta, in Dragapult.

People also point to Zamazenta's banworthiness when looking at its power. They believe that with Choice Band as well as Tera Fighting, it can "sweep through the opposing team with minimal effort". This is clearly false; in the metagame now, there are quite a few Ghost type Pokemon which are completely immune to Close Combat, being the above-mentioned Dragapult, Skeledirge and Gholdengo. Though Zamazenta definitely has answers to these Pokemon [being Crunch, as well as trying to Pursuit-trap these Pokemon with Kingambit], the fact is that Zamazenta's "sweep" is not all that guaranteed; instead, these Pokemon are able to repeatedly hinder Zamazenta.

Other people say that Zamazenta is "unwallable", or that it has "no counters". While I do agree with this point, the mere fact that Zamazenta cannot be countered does not point to its brokenness. The fact is that though one cannot slap a single Pokemon onto a team and say that "Zamazenta's not a problem anymore", many good Pokemon in the metagame somewhat check Zamazenta. This includes the above-mentioned Pokemon, but also Pokemon like Volcarona [which can burn Zamazenta with Flame Body], Tornadus-Therian [which, though very frail, can take a single Close Combat and revenge kill Zamazenta with Bleakwind Storm, negating the damage that Zamazenta deals with Regenerator] and Toxapex [which can only be handled somewhat by Z-Electrium sets, though these cannot outright kill some variants of Toxapex] and Landorus-Therian [which is only afraid of Ice Fang and can continuously chip Zamazenta with Rocky Helmet and punish its Close Combats]. Any good team would have at least a few of these Pokemon, which serve not just to check Zamazenta but to handle other threats, provide utility, and even sweep at times. As such, though Zamazenta is indeed uncounterable, it can still be handled or soft-checked by many metagame staples.

In summary, if one looks at Zamazenta alone, one may easily get the impression that it is broken, and should be banned. However, though Zamazenta is indeed a force to be reckoned with, it is not unreasonable to handle it, and as such, it should not be banned.
 
At the start of this suspect I felt quite strongly that Zamazenta was too much for the tier to handle, but reading through this thread I am now quite on the fence. Its speed is nearly unmatched, with only a single Pokemon in the metagame being able to outspeed it without a speed boost and its Close Combat seriously stings anything but the most bulky Fighting resists. Its coverage is also very solid, theoretically allowing it to hit every single Fighting resist for super effective damage and finally, its natural bulk is also incredible. In the right matchups this mon can feel almost unfair with how easily it can force KOs. However those matchups seem pretty rare given the myriad of Pokemon who resist its STAB in the tier right now. Furthermore while it does have a coverage move for every Fighting resist, it cannot run them all at once. While on paper it is unwallable, in practice it does oftentimes fall short and while its natural bulk is incredible, Fighting is not a great defensive type right now. Its resistances to Bug, Rock and Dark don't matter all too much when there are hardly any Rock type moves and the most common Bug and Dark moves are U-Turn and Knock Off respectively.
This is not to say that Zamazenta is bad, quite the contrary. During my suspect run I could find it getting multiple KOs almost every single game. The calcs in this thread also show that even the bulkiest resists can fall into CC range quite quickly and especially offensive teams are often 1 prediction away from losing a Pokemon. The metagame right now is filled with Pokemon who can resist its STAB but that could also change, at which point may god help us all. For now, I am completely unsure whether or not I'll vote ban.
 
Imo Zamazenta should be banned. For people arguing that a 'bunch' of particular mons beat it, all mons are not gonna be run on the same team just for Zama. If a bunch of mons are forced to be run just for Zamazenta, imo Zama is just unhealthy for the meta. For example, you argue Clodsire is a check. How about you pair slowbro with Zama, click future sight then teleport into Zama and start breaking? If Clodsire switches into a Close Combat, it just dies because future sight. Gholdengo dies to crunch. And when it comes to Tornadus Therian:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 318-376 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Tera fighting close combat also 2HKOS

It's ability to run almost any move for any check is the main factor here. You can't possibly predict what it runs or what it uses when you switch in. They might or might not have ice fang on Zama, so Lando wouldn't be a reliable switch in

When it comes to the howl set they might run icium z or electrium z, so you can't decide which one can you switch. It runs crunch/ice fang, so you're basically left to guess the coverage move it runs now

So ban it imo
 
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I've used Zam for a couple games today and here's what i have found. I suffers from 4 move syndrome hard. It wants CC as its stab, iron head for fairy types, crunch for gholdengo, ice fang for lando and the dragons, play rough for dragon types or fighting types, wild charge for flying types, Iron defense for set up if it wants to use body press, psychic fangs for poison types

choice variants can be stopped easily as you can swap in counters like clefable, mega diancee, toxapex. Z crystals are useful but it isn't always able to be on a team necessary like with Komoo-oo, Azumaril, Z happy hour, Tapunium Z. And yes Z wild charge, Z CC, Z iron head and Z play rough are also viable it isn't too threatening.

Its physical so it has to deal with Lando which wall non ice fang varies along with intimidate, Will-o from rottom and dragapult, flame body from volcarona, and its only real way of doing big damage is with a choice band giving it around 508 attack which is lower than banded Azumarill. Its speed is shut down by thunderwave on rotom, clefable, gholdengo, sticky web,
 
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I sooooo badly wanna keep zamazenta in the tier, but realistically, it is absurdly powerful. The very generation Zamazenta got Body Press and is freed from Uber purgatory, it seemed like Zamazenta would have a redemption arch. It probably wasn't meant to last. Therefore, I will vote BAN. We don't need a repeat of tera. Speaking of which, I also support a tera ban.
 
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This probably won't matter but I will be voting Do Not Ban out of nothing but pity.
Please please please PLEASE don't do this. This was LITERALLY the exact same thing people did with Tera, and look where we are now. If you think Zamazenta is broken, then for the love of god, vote ban. If not, then you can provide reasoning for it, but this shouldn't be the reason ever.
 
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