Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 7: Gold Chains

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:sm/gholdengo:




The National Dex OU Council has decided to suspect Gholdengo for the seventh test of Generation 9.

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For this iteration of the suspect testing process, we will be taking a look at what is likely one of the most controversial additions of Generation 9 Scarlet and Violet. Gholdengo has been a potential target of tiering action from both the Council and broader playerbase for some time now, and Kingambit's ban earlier in the generation only bolstered its position further such that it now occupies the top spot in the metagame and a coveted S viability ranking.

Gholdengo made a huge splash upon its arrival in National Dex thanks in large part to a phenomenal signature ability Good as Gold which makes it entirely immune to all status moves. Although the secondary effects of attacks can still activate on Gholdengo, this largely means that offensive presence is the only way to remove it from play. Of course, Gholdengo is by no means a one-trick Pokémon as it also boasts a staggering base 133 Sp. Att and dual Steel/Ghost typing that has great value both offensively and defensively. The Steel/Ghost STAB combination is capable of hitting nearly the entire tier for at least neutral damage bar a handful of mons such as Mega Gyarados, Hisuian Samurott, Greninja, and Garganacl with steel-resistant Tera types. Gholdengo's signature move Make It Rain is strong, highly spammable, and easily boosted via Nasty Plot. Its defensive profile alongside reliable recovery allows it to check several top tier metagame threats like Sneasler, Tapu Lele, and Iron Valiant while multiple defensive Tera options like flying, fairy, or water only expand this list. Even over the course of several months of meta progression, abusing Good As Gold to block defog and stack layers upon layers of hazards has remained an effective playstyle for both offensive and defensive teams and strictly limits the viable hazard control options within the tier.

Despite Gholdengo's extensive list of attributes, it is not an entirely perfect Pokémon. Base 84 speed is quite poor in the current landscape of National Dex leaving it lagging behind more than half of the current OU ranked mons. Gholdengo's defensive stats are respectable but not amazing and its most common use as a hazard-stacking support often necessitates investing heavily or fully in bulk which further slows it down. Simply put, Gholdengo is slow and susceptible to common offensive types such as fire, ground, or dark which may leave it overwhelmed in a defensive role unless it chooses to Terastallize. Gholdengo can be a tricky Pokémon for defensive and balanced teams to handle. However, unaware Clodsire, Tera Garganacl, Moltres, Ting-Lu, Mega Charizard-Y, and bulky Volcarona all prove to be a nuisance.

Given that Gholdengo is potentially the best Pokémon in current National Dex OU and the undeniable constraint Good As Gold causes within the teambuilder, the National Dex OU Council feels it is appropriate to suspect test it at this time.

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  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9GD. For example, I could sign up as ND9GD Kyo.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Gholdengo will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until October 29th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
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    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM me, Jho, or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
 
Alright, I suppose I'll go first. Bluntly speaking, I think this mon should go. It's a Pokémon who warps the hazard game by existence and a lot of what makes a good defogger entirely revolves not just around beating the setters, but being able to not blank into Gholdengo, which exasperate how hard it is to check some Pokemon in the tier for everyone else like Tapu Lele (This pokemon is not remotely busted btw). Gholdengo itself is no slouch, fat NP is a fantastic set w covert cloak which blanks a ton of Pokémon with Tera like Garg, and checks other annoying things like Sneasler and I-Val. As far as the dissenting reasons I've seen, most of it is just, oh we shouldn't ban it, not it's not broken/unhealthy.

Let me be clear, broken checks broken is not a valid way to tier a metagame. Just because Gholdengo holds I-Val and Sneasler back does not mean we shouldn't banish it. Frankly those two, especially Valiant are very nutty even with Gholdengo around, and Lele just isn't that bad. Sneasler... that mon actually kind of underwhelms but it's an annoying piece of trash game design and I'd be perfectly fine with nuking it on unhealthy charges.

Gholdengo on it's own is a generally fine but incredibly strong Pokémon, but what it does to the game and meta is extremely warping and unbalanced and it should get the boot.
 
I don't usually write on suspect tests, but this pokemon is one that is incredibly overbearing and one I truly dislike in this meta.

Gholdengo's GaG ability in combination with its Ghost/Steel typing makes it difficult for slower, bulkier styles to handle due to it blocking a wide variety of common moves used by these structures and being able to set up a Nasty Plot or even sub that has been running around on the ladder. Even if you do slot in pokemon that could otherwise handle it, such as Unaware Clodsire, Tera can invalidate these answers. For example, Tera Flying will turn most answers into set up fodder, Tera Ghost can shed most of its common weaknesses while retaining a solid typing and boost to Sball, Tera Fairy/Water can be generally harder to deal with depending on your team, etc. Its a very concerning pokemon and thats only considering Defensive sets. Although not as common, sets such as Ghostium/Fight Z or Scarf are also dangerous due to it having great stab coverage and a strong special attack stat, but also have the surprise factor due to the sheer prominence of the defensive set.

Even outside of this, I haven't talked about how warping it has been in the hazard meta. Its an incredibly restricting pokemon from this point of view, with it blocking pretty much every form of hazard removal outside of Pokemon that can even remotely threaten it, Tidy Up which might as well not exist, and Court Change which is not only limited to Ace but also exploitable in its own right. Not only does this restrict what you can use on your team as hazard removal, but once again these pokemon may not even work due to Tera matchups.

This pokemon isn't all bad, having a pokemon that can decently check stuff like Lele/Val/Sneasler is amazing, but overall I find this pokemon to be extremely restricting in its current state and I will be voting BAN.
 
Ok i just made an account and idk if im meant to even say something and saw this and yeah i reckon gholdengo needs to be moved back, I've seen the thing in around 1/4 of my matches and i hate it, sometimes even forefit when i see it in a team, it just cant be statused consistantely , nasty plots then goes wild over my team with shadow ball until it has to make it rain and it can tera to dodge dark fire ground and kind of ghost and even gets focus blast as coverage, the explanation that it balances other things seems kinda dumb and unbalanced and stuff like iron val are still busted even when it is around(although them being checked is cool)but i think me and a lot of other noobs would be happy if this thing got moved to ubers and then we can see if it should be dropped back
i vote ban
 
Edit: All right, because someone already responded(big shocker), I figure I may as well fix my argument and include the defog part.
I tinkered a bit with the teams and from I understand, things get a little bit more muddy. There are only 3 defoggers that can counter and survive dengo, being which the Lando and Tornadus therian forms and Great Tusk(as mentioned before). However, like I mentioned before and the person forgot to check, the idea that Gholdengo effectively kills wallbreakers is kind of exaggerated imo. This might just be my experience, but if you can effectively get rid of Dengo, then the defoggers are clear no? And like I also mentioned, there is no shortage to counters to killing Dengo.

I have never really been a user of Gholdengo, but for the sake of devil's advocate and because I like my string cheese, I will argue in not banning. While the defog prowess is truly a menace and would probably warrant a ban if I only saw it, one has to take other parts of the mon into consideration, with the primary candidate being the speed. Gholdengo's speed is very slow compared to the majority for the mons in the meta, and because most of these favor speed and attack, Gholdengo can be countered. For instance:
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Gholdengo in Sun: 410-486 (108.4 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Gholdengo in Sun: 338-398 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Mega Charizard Y, a common monster that's used on both sun and offensive teams, has an instant OHKO if Fire Blast scores a hit, and even with Flamethrower it still had a chance of OHKOing. Even with the speed scarf set:
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard: 153-180 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gholdengo requires 2 turns in order to KO Charizard, with the only bad scenario being Charizard somehow having Flamethrower. Still, 3/4 isn't that bad of a counter, now is it? Let's look at another mon.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 366-432 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 366-432 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Great Tusk is another common mon in the meta that also comes with some decent speed, and it has a 81.3 % of OHKO. That's extremely high, and considering the commonness of this Pokémon, it should seem like Gholdengo could be easily mitigated. But just for emphasis, let's use a example where Gholdengo teras, which I have not addressed yet. I just want to pause here and say that Gholdengo most commonly teras into Ghost, so we will be using that example. Despite the fact that Gholdengo would be wasting a precious Tera that could easily be more valuable with its partners, Dengo will still pose a serious threat if it fires off a Nasty Plot while in Terastilized Form.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Gholdengo: 390-462 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 12 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 142-168 (45.6 - 54%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
Even with a Nasty Plot boost, Gholdengo struggles to 2HKO Offensive Volc(another common mon that punishes Gholdengo use) with a Quiver Dance boost, while Volc easily responds with a OHKO to even prevent Dengo from firing off a Shadow Ball. For the sake of the people who will counter my argument, let's have Lando-T go against Dengo.
12 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 201-237 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 276-326 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dengo fails to chip through Lando, and even with a Plot boost, Lando out speeds and seals the nail on the coffin (both figuratively and literally).
The general idea is that Dengo, while a big part of the meta, can be countered by multiple mons if played correctly, and in my opinion does not warrant a ban.
P.S I know I missed something; this was just a combo of me being stupid and lazy simultaneously, not on purpose.
 
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Bruhsters2.0 said:
I have never really been a fan of Gholdengo, but for the sake of devil's advocate and because I like my string cheese, I will argue in not banning. While the defog prowess is truly a menace and would probably warrant a ban if I only saw it, one has to take other parts of the mon into consideration, with the primary candidate being the speed. Gholdengo's speed is very slow compared to the majority for the mons in the meta, and because most of these favor speed and attack, Gholdengo can be countered. For instance:
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Gholdengo in Sun: 410-486 (108.4 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Gholdengo in Sun: 338-398 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Mega Charizard Y, a common monster that's used on both sun and offensive teams, has an instant OHKO if Fire Blast scores a hit, and even with Flamethrower it still had a chance of OHKOing. Even with the speed scarf set:
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard: 153-180 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gholdengo requires 2 turns in order to KO Charizard, with the only bad scenario being Charizard somehow having Flamethrower. Still, 3/4 isn't that bad of a counter, now is it? Let's look at another mon.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 366-432 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 366-432 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Great Tusk is another common mon in the meta that also comes with some decent speed, and it has a 81.3 % of OHKO. That's extremely high, and considering the commonness of this Pokémon, it should seem like Gholdengo could be easily mitigated. But just for emphasis, let's use a example where Gholdengo teras, which I have not addressed yet. I just want to pause here and say that Gholdengo most commonly teras into Ghost, so we will be using that example. Despite the fact that Gholdengo would be wasting a precious Tera that could easily be more valuable with its partners, Dengo will still pose a serious threat if it fires off a Nasty Plot while in Terastilized Form.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Gholdengo: 390-462 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 12 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 142-168 (45.6 - 54%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
Even with a Nasty Plot boost, Gholdengo struggles to 2HKO Offensive Volc(another common mon that punishes Gholdengo use) with a Quiver Dance boost, while Volc easily responds with a OHKO to even prevent Dengo from firing off a Shadow Ball. For the sake of the people who will counter my argument, let's have Lando-T go against Dengo.
12 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 201-237 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 276-326 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dengo fails to chip through Lando, and even with a Plot boost, Lando out speeds and seals the nail on the coffin (both figuratively and literally).
The general idea is that Dengo, while a big part of the meta, can be countered by multiple mons if played correctly, and in my opinion does not warrant a ban.
P.S Please don't become toxic and counter all of my points. Like I said, I am simply playing devil's advocate and while I can see why people want to ban him, I am not derogatorily insulting your argument, am I?
P.P.S I know I missed something; this was just a combo of me being stupid and lazy simultaneously, not on purpose.
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I don't think that's how devil's advocate works, you can't just say your opinion and then shield yourself from criticism with it, playing devil's advocate implies you don't agree with the opinion you're putting forward. Plus, I don't think we're focusing on the debate that Gholdengo has reasonable counters for it's pretty middling speed tier, you've already demonstrated that. I feel the focus should be more on if we're okay with leaving a mon in the tier that so heavily centralizes the hazard metagame to completely revolve around it and heavily restrict potential defensive options.

As for my opinion, the test got me curious so I hopped onto OU for a bit and built some teams, and as it stands to me, Gholdengo essentially limits the amount of hazard removal options down to 3 generalist options, Landorus-T, Tornadus-T and Great Tusk. Corviknight is complete and utter dead weight into the Gholdengo, I don't even know why this mon hasn't dropped, the existence of Gholdengo completely invalidates it's reason to be in the tier. Rotom-W can be your defogger, but it can struggle to get it off sometimes vs more bulky Gholdengo sets, and Zapdos and Gliscor would much rather not run Defog, with Gliscor sometimes being stonewalled without Knock Off vs Air Balloon sets and Zapdos needing Sp.Atk investment + Heat Wave. The 3 generalist options I just mentioned previously also fail to work sometimes either without specific coverage like Heat Wave with Torn-T, or needing to remove an Air Balloon first before being able to threaten it with heavy damage, and I haven't even gotten into how Tera throws this interaction all off, enabling it to beat pretty much any remover that it picks in the builder. So now, with Gholdengo present in the builder, you're restricted to run more offensive teams that won't have to worry about an absurd amount of non-removable hazards for too long, as it's typing and movepool also makes most strictly defensive options completely thud into it.
Now, if you run these more offensive teams and run into Gholdengo, you're not going to have that many issues, it's pretty slow all things considered. But even if you didn't run into it, it's existence has you exclude a good chunk of defensive options for your team in favor of not having to deal with it's hazard blocking BS. I can't If this is the tier we want to play, so be it, but I think Gholdengo creates a chokehold on options that could be used but so horribly lose to Gholdengo, you're better off picking what's already available, and I believe it should be banned.
 
Working at reqs ATM but felt like leaving my thoughts here and why I'm firmly voting to ban Gholdengo.

There are two aspects to Gholdengo I feel that makes it overbearing, and specifically talking about its renowned fat NP cloak set The lesser but still notable one is its match up into bulkier and defensive teams, which can struggle to deal with it due to the typing, invested bulk and ability to bypass multiple common tactics for handling slower set up threats. Thanks to GaG, leech seed, taunt, encore, toxic are all useless against it and makes it a burdensome match up that's difficult to manage with the multiple teras it can run. This is without talking about hazards that it protects, and abuses to wear down checks.

This by itself wouldn't necessarily make it a big concern, but the second and most alarming aspect of this pokemon is the influence it has in the hazard metagame. It heavily dictates what makes for viable removal, which is a surprisingly limited list when discussing it. TornadusT, LandorusT and Great Tusk are generally the most reliable, but are far from guaranteed and Ghold even often invests.in a way to block most TornadusT defogs. While LandorusT can be stuffed if Ghold teras flying, leaving really jusy Great Tusk. This often means hazards will stay up for an uncomfortable amount of time and end up wearing down pokemon on the opposing side quickly which makes checking Ghold and its teanmates much tougher longterm. Gholdengo's warping of the hazard game is heavily restrictive and places an unhealthy burden on teambuilding that i feel makes the tier worse and thus i feel it is banworthy.

As a side note, if people are concerned that Val and Sneasler will be broken without it we can always visit them next. Broken checks broken should never be how we do things. I've also seen some concern that Lele loses it's best check making it broken but tbh specs tera psychic Lele doesn't care about it either with it 2HKOing Ghold with a single spike up anyway.
 
:gholdengo: getting banned will make :sneasler: not forced to use the Fling set which will make it so much better and versatile and let's not forget :tapu lele: and :iron valiant:, it's the same situation with :kingambit: getting banned which results in :dragapult: being so much better and also getting banned.
 
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MudkipBeans said:
I don't think that's how devil's advocate works, you can't just say your opinion and then shield yourself from criticism with it, playing devil's advocate implies you don't agree with the opinion you're putting forward. Plus, I don't think we're focusing on the debate that Gholdengo has reasonable counters for it's pretty middling speed tier, you've already demonstrated that. I feel the focus should be more on if we're okay with leaving a mon in the tier that so heavily centralizes the hazard metagame to completely revolve around it and heavily restrict potential defensive options.

As for my opinion, the test got me curious so I hopped onto OU for a bit and built some teams, and as it stands to me, Gholdengo essentially limits the amount of hazard removal options down to 3 generalist options, Landorus-T, Tornadus-T and Great Tusk. Corviknight is complete and utter dead weight into the Gholdengo, I don't even know why this mon hasn't dropped, the existence of Gholdengo completely invalidates it's reason to be in the tier. Rotom-W can be your defogger, but it can struggle to get it off sometimes vs more bulky Gholdengo sets, and Zapdos and Gliscor would much rather not run Defog, with Gliscor sometimes being stonewalled without Knock Off vs Air Balloon sets and Zapdos needing Sp.Atk investment + Heat Wave. The 3 generalist options I just mentioned previously also fail to work sometimes either without specific coverage like Heat Wave with Torn-T, or needing to remove an Air Balloon first before being able to threaten it with heavy damage, and I haven't even gotten into how Tera throws this interaction all off, enabling it to beat pretty much any remover that it picks in the builder. So now, with Gholdengo present in the builder, you're restricted to run more offensive teams that won't have to worry about an absurd amount of non-removable hazards for too long, as it's typing and movepool also makes most strictly defensive options completely thud into it.
Now, if you run these more offensive teams and run into Gholdengo, you're not going to have that many issues, it's pretty slow all things considered. But even if you didn't run into it, it's existence has you exclude a good chunk of defensive options for your team in favor of not having to deal with it's hazard blocking BS. I can't If this is the tier we want to play, so be it, but I think Gholdengo creates a chokehold on options that could be used but so horribly lose to Gholdengo, you're better off picking what's already available, and I believe it should be banned.
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The National Dex Gholdengo set is specifically designed to live two heat waves from offensive Tornadus-Therian and OHKO its defensive variant with a +2 Make It Rain - it is why you will not see the mon much in actual games and will run into Moltres teams instead (shoutout to setset77 for the idea).
 
Bodi 69 said:
:gholdengo: getting banned will make :sneasler: not forced to use the Fling set which will make it so much better and versatile, it's the same situation with :kingambit: getting banned which results in :dragapult: being so much better and also getting banned.
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First, I personally feel that the fling set is pretty gimmicky when stuff like Tera Blast Ground can also be used to dispatch stuff like Pex as well but more importantly many people knew that the Kingambit ban was going to lead to both pult and Dengo getting suspect tested (with both of these pokemon being incredibly sus even with gambit around)

All I feel like this ban will do will stop the current broken checks broken that has been happening
 
As I haven’t the meta since pre pult ban, That said, I can see why gholdengo is getting suspected, it’s versatility, typing, and broken ability is the poster boy of SV mon hating. The main problem I see with gholdengo is just the wide range of tasks It can fulfill, with defenses that lets it live a surprising amount of the meta and access to recovery and its amazing typing countering and checking so much of the meta, it forces you to play aggressive with moves when using slower and bulkier teams as you then lose in a war of attrition. Not only that, but putting its excellent stab moves and coverage to use, it can nuke unsuspecting mons coming in expecting a bulkier variant, or even trick its usual checks and counters. This mon sets way to much precedent in this meta and deserves a ban, although I am concerned of the mons that are countered by this mon, such as sneasler, valiant, lele, are the main big ones.

I just realized I haven’t talked about the variety of defensive and offensive Teras it uses. Their all pretty good lol
 
it's funny to see people when arguing that "it shouldnt be banned! It can resist supereffective moves weather boosted stabbed mewtwo-level spatk! really not broken! gholdengo yes and i can send you calcs that kingambit died to close combat from any fighting type with a respectable attack(it means no keldeo, fool). I mean, it's better to do changes before dlc2 drop instead of being overcharged then. Gambit ban led to pult ban and Will lead to gholdengo ban. Then valiant ban and the power of tapu lele increased Will make a new meta. let's face change and later we'll look at this meta and laugh "it was chaos"
 
pisses me off to see people arguing that gholdengo doesnt ohko enough stuff to be considered broken. Well maths says: of you lose 70% in one hit and you can only deal 40%back you lose. Also, if on Switch in you take 70% and you Cant ohko back, guess What, you lose. Crazy to see How people fear change. Dont tell me that a pokemon that itself nerfs fighting poison fairy and psychic mons in the tier just bY existing is healthy and should stay
 
Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
pisses me off to see people arguing that gholdengo doesnt ohko enough stuff to be considered broken. Well maths says: of you lose 70% in one hit and you can only deal 40%back you lose. Also, if on Switch in you take 70% and you Cant ohko back, guess What, you lose. Crazy to see How people fear change. Dont tell me that a pokemon that itself nerfs fighting poison fairy and psychic mons in the tier just bY existing is healthy and should stay
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I'm not afraid of change, if anything I originally pointed out that I was playing devil's advocate. Crazy to see how some people become super toxic over nothing.
 
Kin+ak (✧∇✧) said:
it's funny to see people when arguing that "it shouldnt be banned! It can resist supereffective moves weather boosted stabbed mewtwo-level spatk! really not broken! gholdengo yes and i can send you calcs that kingambit died to close combat from any fighting type with a respectable attack(it means no keldeo, fool). I mean, it's better to do changes before dlc2 drop instead of being overcharged then. Gambit ban led to pult ban and Will lead to gholdengo ban. Then valiant ban and the power of tapu lele increased Will make a new meta. let's face change and later we'll look at this meta and laugh "it was chaos"
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Also yes I agree I was simply doing it because I like my string cheese. Hate to see people immediately getting more toxic as this goes on.
 
i probably won't have the time to get recs but i made my acc just to give my thoughts on this silly string cheese rufus king lookalike
gholdengo.png


this thing has got to go. i'm not a great player but it seems pretty obvious to me that just the existence of something that can so effortlessly shut down hazard removal options in the teambuilder really constrains diversity in the tier, and pushes the metagame towards more extreme (and less healthy) styles of play.

rufus isn't centralizing in the same way a lot of other banned mons are because he's not a crazy sweeper or breaker, but he does enable so much just by existing. it's why arguments like "zard y will cook rufus to a nice golden-brown for a tasty lunch with a sun-boosted fire attack" kind of miss the point, because most of rufus's value doesn't come from fighting stuff 1v1 (although that's not to say that he's bad at it, because he has more than enough qualities to beat plenty of other mons), most of his value comes from how he keeps rocks around for the whole game to make it harder for the aforementioned zard y (and friends) to come in and blow him up in the first place.

if by some miracle i do manage to get recs, i will be voting ban on rufus "gholdengo" king.
 
First time posting in a suspect, as I usually dont care enough.

For the love of god, ban Gholdengo.

Hazard removal is already rather expensive as it is, taking a whole turn to get rid of hazards while your opponent gets a free turn is generally not ideal. Gholdengo takes this already expensive tax and makes it worse by making it flat out worthless. Gholdengo enables teams that just set up hazards and force switches with very little counterplay unless you plan specifically to deal with it. Gholdengo does not need to be threatening on its own because its ability allows it to come in for free on most hazard removal, do a bit of damage or trick a scarf onto something that does not want that scarf, then leave. It doesnt care much about counters because it doesn't want to stay in. It gets a lot of opportunities to set up for free when switching into hazard removal, enabling it to deal heavy damage to whatever wants to come in to check it, and then switch out to something that will force another switch on the opponent. This creates an unhealthy momentum in the game where the player who can set up and keep up hazards can win without really engaging their opponent.

All of this to say, it is not fun to play against. I actually stepped away from this game entirely due to this exact issue for a while, and came back because I heard about the suspect.

I firmly vote ban.
 
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PWA Wright said:
View attachment 562807
First time posting in a suspect, as I usually dont care enough.

For the love of god, ban Gholdengo.

Hazard removal is already rather expensive as it is, taking a whole turn to get rid of hazards while your opponent gets a free turn is generally not ideal. Gholdengo takes this already expensive tax and makes it worse by making it flat out worthless. Gholdengo enables teams that just set up hazards and force switches with very little counterplay unless you plan specifically to deal with it. Gholdengo does not need to be threatening on its own because its ability allows it to come in for free on most hazard removal, do a bit of damage or trick a scarf onto something that does not want that scarf, then leave. It doesnt care much about counters because it doesn't want to stay in. It gets a lot of opportunities to set up for free when switching into hazard removal, enabling it to deal heavy damage to whatever wants to come in to check it, and then switch out to something that will force another switch on the opponent. This creates an unhealthy momentum in the game where the player who can set up and keep up hazards can win without really engaging their opponent.

All of this to say, it is not fun to play against. I actually stepped away from this game entirely due to this exact issue for a while, and came back because I heard about the suspect.

I firmly vote ban.
Click to expand...
Good post, but you might want to post your screenshot in this thread as proof of getting reqs.
 
Heyyo I grinded reqs a couple days ago AND played the tier some more so that I make the most informed decision.

And after playing the tier some more I think I changed my mind about couple of things.

my thoughts before getting reqs
1. The hazard removal here is ASS and I overestimated the tier's hazard removers.

To me there are like 4 usable hazard removers, tusk, lando, moltres and torn. (no corv does not count... that shit invites ghold every single time and ALL it does is u-turn out. if it doesnt then its just a complete momentum sink.)
- there are some others that can defog but they're inconsistent at their jobs - aka zap, rotom, etc.

ANWAYS, it's impossible to deny that we're currently playing in a spikes centric metagame. And as any competent player would know spikes make progress like nothing else. So it would be pretty nice to remove hazards right?

NOPE this dipshit ":gholdengo:" is right here to block everything.

And ghold has an incredible match up against most hazard removers besides the 4 that I mentioned above. WHICH ISNT A LOT. And for most teams it's just spike for the 6000th and click knock for another 3000th time and just sufficate any team that wants to take it slowly. So if you have a team that's on the slower side then it's practically impossible to not use a superman team. (WHICH IS VERY VERY RESTRICTIVE AND NOT HEALTHY)

2. Bulky ghold is mainly the problem

Now, if ghold only had the offensive set with scarf, or just balloon NP then this thing woulndt be anywhere NEAR as bad as it is right now. However, that is not the case AT ALL.

The ghold set that I find most problematic is actually a bulky set that looks somewhat like this.
:gholdengo:
Gholdengo @ Leftovers/ Air Balloon/ Covert Cloak
Level: 100
Calm Nature
Ability: Good as Gold
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Def / 68 SpA / 112 SpD / 20 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
-Recover
-Nasty Plot

A set like this has the bulk, longevity to get switch ins and just repeatedly batter against your teams. And this thing has enough fat to 1v1 most pursuit trappers, COME BACK at a certain point recover off all the damage and then keep chugging along.
- this thing is a spedef set w barely any phsdef and it EATS pursuits with ease.
1. :weavile: is weav and get's it's entire evolutionary sent home packing)
2. :bisharp: CAN switch in. but then you're using bisharp......
(bisharp calc 252+ Atk Bisharp switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Gholdengo: 272-324 (72.1 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
3. :tyranitar: can switch in on shadow ball but make it rain HURTS even in sand.
68 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 234-276 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To put it bluntly this thing is WAY too good at being fat and it's way too hard to wear down which makes it really easy keep your own spikes up for an extended period of time.

3. Closing thoughts

ghold is a mon that I thought helped keep the tier together that provided to be a good check to threats like :iron valiant: :sneasler: , :tapu lele:.

However, I dont think I considered that these fucks were just broken in the first place. (and yes scarf lele w the ability to tera is just a satan spawn you're not gonna change my mind on that)

But after playing the tier some more I think ghold just suffocates just about any form of bulky, balanced styles from having any variety. And it just promotes a really toxic cycle of spikes stacking that I don't think should be allowed in a healthy tier that allows for different playstyles.

Like most the meta is just "spam Aggro offense" or "superman" bc it's impossble to try slowing down the game since you're just gonna get run over by the spikes stacking offense teams.


TL;DR gholdengo make tier go stinky

"edit ban bax"
 
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