Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 8: Just Dance

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peap

asleep
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:sm/sneasler:




The National Dex OU Council has decided to suspect Sneasler for the eighth test of Generation 9.

cRlZYyy.png


The next stage of the suspect testing process turns its eyes to Sneasler. Sneasler offers unparalleled speed control and sweeping potential through its Unburden set that synergizes well with powerful Terrain setters. In the latest iteration of the On the Radar, Sneasler was highlighted as a controversial and potentially unbalanced element in the tier with one of its best natural checks, Gholdengo, banned some weeks prior. The quickbans of Baxcalibur and Ursaluna-Bloodmoon have little impacted Sneasler's viability, and given a weeks' interim for the metagame to restabilize, it's now appropriate to assess Sneasler's place within it.

One might almost think National Dex SVOU has conspired to maximize Sneasler's potency through multiple factors. Sneasler sports a base 120 Speed stat that places it in a faster speed tier than all relevant Choice Scarf users, Iron Valiant with Booster Energy, and weather users of Sand Rush and Swift Swim save for Barraskewda in Rain. Thus, Sneasler most commonly runs an Adamant nature with a powerful base 130 Attack stat that 2HKOs the majority of the tier. Swords Dance, Close Combat, Dire Claw/Gunk Shot, and a Terastallization-dependent coverage move - most commonly Acrobatics with Tera Flying for a strong neutral option - are all Sneasler needs to immediately threaten an endgame sweep of a weakened team or wallbreak irreparable damage to an opponent's checks. Moreover, two options unique to National Dex, Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko, synergize incredibly well with Sneasler as Terrain setters. In particular, Psychic Terrain denies priority, neutering Fake Out and Bullet Punch as common methods for revenging Sneasler. Tapu Koko's Electric Terrain prevents one of Sneasler's notable checks in Dondozo from recovering via Rest. As well, Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain provides passive recovery to Sneasler as it sets up. With defensive stat boosts from Psychic/Electric/Grass Seed, a double Speed stat from Unburden, and the passive support of the aforementioned terrains, Sneasler can consistently use Swords Dance - that's five stat boosts in total - to exert enormous offensive pressure in a match.

Despite the perfect storm of support for its sweeping capabilities, Sneasler's Poison/Fighting dual typing and bulk thankfully leave room to be desired. Slowking-Galar and Slowbro take a hit from Sneasler and can fire off Future Sight that OHKOs Sneasler, or severely damages it should it Terastallize out of Poison type. The defensive stat drops from using Close Combat often place Sneasler into range of Fake Out from Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny. Toxapex resists Sneasler's original stabs, can nullify Attack boosts through Haze, fish for Scald or weather hits via Rocky Helmet but is altogether an inconsistent check. Defensive Flying-types in Zapdos and Moltres can also heavily chip Sneasler and possibly cripple it through Static or Flame Body, but are OHKOd by a +2 Gunk Shot. As the premier physical Unaware wall this generation, Dondozo is a hard check to Sneasler - as long as it can use Rest outside of Electric Terrain. Instead, Ghost types like Skeledirge or Aegislash and Tera Ghost users like Ferrothorn and Landorus-Therian have risen as more consistent checks to a boosted Sneasler that deal passive damage while stomaching multiple hits.

However, Dire Claw's secondary effect of dealing Poison, Paralysis, or Sleep status with a 50% chance places a major asterisk to the above counterplay. In reality, checking Sneasler requires multiple rounds of chip, careful resource management, and a bit of luck.

Given Sneasler's unparalled offensive capabilities, the National Dex OU Council believes it must now face the scrutiny of a suspect test.


1693526204340.png



  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NDSNEZ. For example, I could sign up as NDSNEZ peapod.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Sneasler will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until December 3rd at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM Kyo, Jho, or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
 
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Oculars

THE SHEIKH OF SHAMONE
is a Tiering Contributor
Ya so webs is basically unplayable into competent sneasler matchup since im not running a bunch of fatties so I have to resort to crap like tera electric buzzwole with punching gloves and hope they tera flying acro or use normal banded dnite. Unburden procced sneasler has 454 speed after webs drop which is absurd blud is basically mega hawlucha if blud was smoking AAAA dice rolls and big dire claw hax. Im gonna be voting ban so people can move on to complaining about the next fastest mon which is iron valiant. The point of webs is im supposed to be able to out offence the other offences not autolose to some scrub with no shamone who just stuck lele + sneasler on mola ting lu balance. TLDR: i should be faster than all the shits with webs up also even if u have a defensive check to sneasler u just get haxxed anyways enjoy 3 turn sleeping/instant full para @ :landorus-therian::rocky-helmet: ban this mon cuz broken its constraining on the builder and now it often comes down to run strong priority, run ur own sneasler and speed tie or run bozo stall and hopefully its not koko terrain so ur bozo cant rest.
 
I'm planning on getting reqs when I'm able to, although I also have some real life projects I'm trying to get done (trying to get Linux on old Mac laptop is a process). As for my thoughts, I was feeling pretty split in the OtR thread, but playing ladder and building, I feel like this is the last major "problem element" of the tier at this point in time. Largely off the strength of unburden sets, I feel like it imposes a large restriction on building to try and contain it. The biggest issue with this is the fact that you're not just building to account for Sneasler's set itself, which can be difficult given the way it can pick a fourth move slot, but the way it fits like a glove with terrain support. Counterplay changes depending on what terrain support it has, and this to me is the biggest problem. KokoSneasler teams not only have the potential benefit of screens to make revenging it even harder, but the terrain shuts down one of the few counters in resttalk dondozo. Then there's LeleSneasler blocking priority, and RillaSneasler (which imo is the weakest by far since you're saddled with shitty Rilla) halving EQ and providing recovery. Accounting for all of these in addition to its own set possibilities feels too constrained and difficult.

There's not enough overlapping counterplay to the sets and terrain combos, and in general too limited counterplay to deal with it. So I'll be slowly working towards reqs and I intend to vote ban. As a last side note, I don't think pivot sets with dire claw are broken.
 
1650153230386.png


:sm/sneasler:




The National Dex OU Council has decided to suspect Sneasler for the eighth test of Generation 9.

cRlZYyy.png


The next stage of the suspect testing process turns its eyes to Sneasler. Sneasler offers unparalleled speed control and sweeping potential through its Unburden set that synergizes well with powerful Terrain setters. In the latest iteration of the On the Radar, Sneasler was highlighted as a controversial and potentially unbalanced element in the tier with one of its best natural checks, Gholdengo, banned some weeks prior. The quickbans of Baxcalibur and Ursaluna-Bloodmoon have little impacted Sneasler's viability, and given a weeks' interim for the metagame to restabilize, it's now appropriate to assess Sneasler's place within it.

One might almost think National Dex SVOU has conspired to maximize Sneasler's potency through multiple factors. Sneasler sports a base 120 Speed stat that places it in a faster speed tier than all relevant Choice Scarf users, Iron Valiant with Booster Energy, and weather users of Sand Rush and Swift Swim save for Barraskewda in Rain. Thus, Sneasler most commonly runs an Adamant nature with a powerful base 130 Attack stat that 2HKOs the majority of the tier. Swords Dance, Close Combat, Dire Claw/Gunk Shot, and a Terastallization-dependent coverage move - most commonly Acrobatics with Tera Flying for a strong neutral option - are all Sneasler needs to immediately threaten an endgame sweep of a weakened team or wallbreak irreparable damage to an opponent's checks. Moreover, two options unique to National Dex, Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko, synergize incredibly well with Sneasler as Terrain setters. In particular, Psychic Terrain denies priority, neutering Fake Out and Bullet Punch as common methods for revenging Sneasler. Tapu Koko's Electric Terrain prevents one of Sneasler's notable checks in Dondozo from recovering via Rest. As well, Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain provides passive recovery to Sneasler as it sets up. With defensive stat boosts from Psychic/Electric/Grass Seed, a double Speed stat from Unburden, and the passive support of the aforementioned terrains, Sneasler can consistently use Swords Dance - that's five stat boosts in total - to exert enormous offensive pressure in a match.

Despite the perfect storm of support for its sweeping capabilities, Sneasler's Poison/Fighting dual typing and bulk thankfully leave room to be desired. Slowking-Galar and Slowbro take a hit from Sneasler and can fire off Future Sight that OHKOs Sneasler, or severely damages it should it Terastallize out of Poison type. The defensive stat drops from using Close Combat often place Sneasler into range of Fake Out from Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny. Toxapex resists Sneasler's original stabs, can nullify Attack boosts through Haze, fish for Scald or weather hits via Rocky Helmet but is altogether an inconsistent check. Defensive Flying-types in Zapdos and Moltres can also heavily chip Sneasler and possibly cripple it through Static or Flame Body, but are OHKOd by a +2 Gunk Shot. As the premier physical Unaware wall this generation, Dondozo is a hard check to Sneasler - as long as it can use Rest outside of Electric Terrain. Instead, Ghost types like Skeledirge or Aegislash and Tera Ghost users like Ferrothorn and Landorus-Therian have risen as more consistent checks to a boosted Sneasler that deal passive damage while stomaching multiple hits.

However, Dire Claw's secondary effect of dealing Poison, Paralysis, or Sleep status with a 50% chance places a major asterisk to the above counterplay. In reality, checking Sneasler requires multiple rounds of chip, careful resource management, and a bit of luck.

Given Sneasler's unparalled offensive capabilities, the National Dex OU Council believes it must now face the scrutiny of a suspect test.


1693526204340.png



  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
Minimum Games Needed
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NDSNEZ. For example, I could sign up as NDSNEZ peapod.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Sneasler will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until December 3rd at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM Kyo, Jho, or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
there is no table of gxe to games played, am i stupid or just missing something?
 
Everyone who said do not ban for Gholdengo knew this would happen. I will vote for DNB. Sneasler is not that much of a threat to sweep. Sneasler will run 3 moves plus sword dance which is predictable. Most will run dual stab and acrobatics so any ghost steel will wall them for days. Some may run crunch instead but that will get walled by great tusk. This Pokémon is a high risk and high reward if not in the best scenario then it makes 5 v 6. DNB
 

Oculars

THE SHEIKH OF SHAMONE
is a Tiering Contributor
Everyone who said do not ban for Gholdengo knew this would happen. I will vote for DNB. Sneasler is not that much of a threat to sweep. Sneasler will run 3 moves plus sword dance which is predictable. Most will run dual stab and acrobatics so any ghost steel will wall them for days. Some may run crunch instead but that will get walled by great tusk. This Pokémon is a high risk and high reward if not in the best scenario then it makes 5 v 6. DNB
there is one ghost steel and its unevolved form and its not even that good
also +2 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 340-402 (78.3 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
 
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Sneasler since the beggining have been a decent if not problematic pokemon. with ghold around, its sweepin abilities were limited. Not becausee ghold walled it, but because ghold ate a full slot of movepool. Now, sneasler can sd freely and sweep with lots more ease. and then there is the main issue: KOKO. koko is the main factor of sneasler brokenness. its partner in crime, koko, can put electtric terrain to boost defense and activate unburden if sneasler holds electric seed, can put up the creens on the field to give a viable bulk, has voltturn to pivot it in, and can taunt, has decent coverage, and has recovery if longevity is needed/useful. then there is that ability: unburden. That and koko pushe hawlucha to SMOU, whioe hawlucha has 118 speed and 92 atk. Now give it a decent defensive typing (important behind screens) and boost significantly its attack, while also increasing slightly its speed only so you can push hawlucha to RUBL. Now at first glance It's Is immediately walled by poison or ghost types, But the truth Is completely different: After 2 SD no poison Is any Good against close combat and are Not any Good at damaging a +1 defense resist behind screens, no matter what. almost same goes for choses Except they are basically haxxed to death via dure claw OR the sneasler in fact runs night slash/shadow claw and u dead. While its speed Is huge, It's Not a major factor in the brokenness lf the Mon as the main point Is its massive huge ATTACK. 130 Is surely very high, competing with mlop/great tusk, While outspereing naturally both and having defensive traits against mlop and like having acrobatics+Tera flying+sd making the cat-like poison pokemon too much imo. With ghold gone not only it's easier for it to run the powerful acrobatics instead of the "must hit supereffective" shadow claw. But well If you are seeking to an answer, neither koko nor sneasler have access to stealth rock, and you maybe will have the occasion of switch in safely in physfef skarmory against sneasler you may have the sturdy+roar/whirlwind to help u a bit. And then again koko eats skarm for lunch so you'll probably need a sacrifice only to force out sneasler and having to fight 5 other pokemon. I'm lazy today. No calcs, maybe tomorrow. I told myself not to post after 23:00 cuz I say shit so good night
 

Dead by Daylight

latin simone
is a Contributor to Smogon
Honestly, I haven't been seeing much Sneasler on ladder or in testing. While it's a problematic Pokemon and I would vote to ban it if I had the motivation to get reqs, it's fallen off of a cliff as far as I can tell. Anyone else experience this phenomenon?
 

Nashrock

peaceful death
is a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Moderator
Honestly, I haven't been seeing much Sneasler on ladder or in testing. While it's a problematic Pokemon and I would vote to ban it if I had the motivation to get reqs, it's fallen off of a cliff as far as I can tell. Anyone else experience this phenomenon?
Ape was quickbanned when its usage wasn’t even in ou back then. And I think it’s still very common for people to run rilla/lele + sneasler now at least on ladder
 
Sneasler exemplifies the current conundrum of striking an acceptable balance between strong Pokemon and powerful game mechanics in National Dex.

Ultimately, Sneasler's true strength lies not only in itself, but in combination with multiple game mechanics leading to its rise as the best setup sweeper in the tier. With an excellent move pool of strong physical attacks plus swords dance, good base stats in Attack and Speed, and the unburden ability, it appears to be a good candidate for the National Dex tier.

However, using the already strong (and easy to teambuild) Tapus to set Grassy/Electric/Psychic Terrain in combination with their respective seeds significantly boosts Sneasler's power level immediately on switch in. In addition to activating unburden, Sneasler receives a boost in its defense or special defense which makes the use of swords dance easier. Further, each terrain helps prevents counterplay. Most notably, Psychic terrain prevents priority moves. And yet, Sneasler isn't the first Pokemon to utilize this setup - Hawlucha still does it pretty well. The difference is that Sneasler has a much higher attack stat at 130 vs Hawlucha's 92, a higher speed stat at 120 vs Hawlucha's 118, and a better movepool than Hawlucha.

What pushes Sneasler into the category of banworthy is terastilization. When Sneasler activates tera flying, it receives a STAB boost to the already incredibly strong acrobatics (after unburden) and eliminates its ground and psychic weaknesses.

In the end, there is no reliable way to counter Sneasler. It can be run with different terrains and can choose whether or not to terastilize. One's best options are to include multiple potential checks, such as always including an unaware Pokemon on a team, always having a strong priority move, attempting to counter terastilize, or hope you don't play vs Sneasler on ladder. It's possible, but not ideal.

I'd prefer not to ban Sneasler. I don't want to see it added to the growing list of Pokeman banned to National Dex Ubers that cannot compete in that tier. Does it deserve to play with Pokemon like Primal-Groudon, Arceus, and Xerneas? No. It's an interesting pokemon that I want to see played. But with terastilization, I believe Sneasler's just over the line of banworthy and should join others like Baxcalibur, Kingambit, Annihilape, and Gholdengo in National Dex Ubers.
 
Sneasler exemplifies the current conundrum of striking an acceptable balance between strong Pokemon and powerful game mechanics in National Dex.

Ultimately, Sneasler's true strength lies not only in itself, but in combination with multiple game mechanics leading to its rise as the best setup sweeper in the tier. With an excellent move pool of strong physical attacks plus swords dance, good base stats in Attack and Speed, and the unburden ability, it appears to be a good candidate for the National Dex tier.

However, using the already strong (and easy to teambuild) Tapus to set Grassy/Electric/Psychic Terrain in combination with their respective seeds significantly boosts Sneasler's power level immediately on switch in. In addition to activating unburden, Sneasler receives a boost in its defense or special defense which makes the use of swords dance easier. Further, each terrain helps prevents counterplay. Most notably, Psychic terrain prevents priority moves. And yet, Sneasler isn't the first Pokemon to utilize this setup - Hawlucha still does it pretty well. The difference is that Sneasler has a much higher attack stat at 130 vs Hawlucha's 92, a higher speed stat at 120 vs Hawlucha's 118, and a better movepool than Hawlucha.

What pushes Sneasler into the category of banworthy is terastilization. When Sneasler activates tera flying, it receives a STAB boost to the already incredibly strong acrobatics (after unburden) and eliminates its ground and psychic weaknesses.

In the end, there is no reliable way to counter Sneasler. It can be run with different terrains and can choose whether or not to terastilize. One's best options are to include multiple potential checks, such as always including an unaware Pokemon on a team, always having a strong priority move, attempting to counter terastilize, or hope you don't play vs Sneasler on ladder. It's possible, but not ideal.

I'd prefer not to ban Sneasler. I don't want to see it added to the growing list of Pokeman banned to National Dex Ubers that cannot compete in that tier. Does it deserve to play with Pokemon like Primal-Groudon, Arceus, and Xerneas? No. It's an interesting pokemon that I want to see played. But with terastilization, I believe Sneasler's just over the line of banworthy and should join others like Baxcalibur, Kingambit, Annihilape, and Gholdengo in National Dex Ubers.
Is Natdex uubers coming soon? Yeah cuz like ghold is not good in ubers, not even annihilape or espathra. Unviability in Ubers is not a counter argument to ban
 
Is Natdex uubers coming soon? Yeah cuz like ghold is not good in ubers, not even annihilape or espathra. Unviability in Ubers is not a counter argument to ban
The TLDR was: Sneasler's stats + move pool + ability + terrain + tera = worth ban IMO.

It's just disappointing to see interesting Pokemon (such as Sneasler) out of the tier because the combination of game mechanics like tera and terrain push them a little over the edge in terms of power.
 
As someone who laddered to get reqs, I've honestly found more issues with sneasler's main partner in crime, Lele, to be far more of an issue than Sneasler. Sneasler's ability to clean is entirely dependent on Lele's wallbreaking and terrain support. Sneasler with rilla or koko, imo is far less of an issue. Sneasler is pretty borderline but its more the combination of Lele and Sneasler that is the issue, and Lele is the bigger problem (although I don't think either should be banned)
 
As someone who laddered to get reqs, I've honestly found more issues with sneasler's main partner in crime, Lele, to be far more of an issue than Sneasler. Sneasler's ability to clean is entirely dependent on Lele's wallbreaking and terrain support. Sneasler with rilla or koko, imo is far less of an issue. Sneasler is pretty borderline but its more the combination of Lele and Sneasler that is the issue, and Lele is the bigger problem (although I don't think either should be banned)
Lele is NOT sneasler's main partner in crime as it's KOKO. Koko gives a defense boost, ways more useful than a temporary And unreliable priority immunity. Koko can put up screens, can taunt, and has boltturn and roost. Lele hits hard, sure, but Then Just come With a prio when u used your close combat on a defensive pokemon. And ofc, the problem is sneasler as it is a delete button. Now the "entirely dependent" is a total crime. Sneasler sure sweeps With more ease whrn lele desytoyed 3/4 opponents but like you are denying 100% the fact that sneasler can destroy An entire civilization when behind Screen At +3 atk +1 def And that's EASY to do IF it is on E-terrain. And I entirely disagree here, both should be banned.
 
Sneasler's ability to clean is entirely dependent on Lele's wallbreaking and terrain support
No it's not...? Sneasler itself is a massive threat and still lacks many defensive or offensive answers irrespective of terrain choice. And speaking of which, it fits well on just about any terrain. Even grassy terrain despite Rilla and bulu not being good (bulu underrated actually but that's for another day).

Sneasler is pretty borderline but its more the combination of Lele and Sneasler that is the issue, and Lele is the bigger problem (although I don't think either should be banned)
So if you don't think Sneasler should be banned, could you list good counterplay? Let's try and get some discussion going.
 
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