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SV National Dex UU Stage 6.3: Shooting Stars (Latios Suspect Test)

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Iride

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With additional observations and general metagame changes noticed by the council since the latest seasonals, we have decided to suspect test Latios.

Suspect Reasoning

In a metagame largely identical to previous iterations, tier titan Latios has been one of the most consistently versatile and threatening offensive Pokemon for a while now. It has regularly demanded the utmost attention amongst its few defensive answers, the aforementioned dynamic being so impactful as to make its way onto our radars in previous iterations. However, despite recent changes, these points have shifted so overwhelmingly into its favor once more - with Latios having gained some seriously potent new tools in the Indigo Disk DLC, most notably Flip Turn and the buff to Luster Purge that the council has decided to put it up for attention in this suspect test once more.

Latios’s offensive arsenal remains largely straightforward despite this, yet with some noticeable differences between sets that only suffice to increase its propensity for breaking through teams. The most common variants typically opt for a combination of Life Orb, Soul Dew, and Latiosite with 3 Attacks + Roost, often to best abuse the momentum of Flip Turn after attacking, while sustaining itself across the many opportunities it gets at its disposal. The latter also emphasizes the importance of its defensive utility for such an offensively-minded threat; it’s immune to spikes; has a superb speed tier, being able to get the jump on notable threats such as Keldeo and Thundurus-T, which it resists; and has access to recovery which can allow it to outlast theoretical switch-ins, such as Ting-Lu and Slowking one on one.

Added here, Latios’s impressive offensive movepool and power between its two-move coverage in Draco Meteor + Luster Purge usually leaves it room to directly handpick several of its defensive checks. Aura Sphere allows it to more readily destroy unsuspecting Tyranitar (though Mega Sets are often EV’d to live one from full), Bisharp, and force more consistent damage onto Ting-Lu, whereas Mystical Fire incinerates most Aegislash, Scizor, and Celesteela in the long-run. It is even perfectly capable of abusing Z-Moves on its own, giving it more immediate power whilst negating the Special Attack drop from the commonly used Draco Meteor in Dragonium Z’s case, in addition to the downsides of recoil or choice-locking that come with previous options, sometimes using this in conjunction with Calm Mind to really push the luck of targets attempting to survive a hit from full otherwise. This marks it as a dangerous and flexible offensive presence whose capacity to destroy teams is not to be underestimated.

However, despite Latios’s fearsome attacking capabilities, we must also look at other features including several long-prevalent elements that could be argued to still be sufficient in today’s surroundings. Current metagame adaptations range from the use of Fairy-type pivots like specially defensive Clefable and Tapu Fini, to Pursuit users, to general specially defensive walls like Celesteela and Ting-Lu that can at the very least afford to scout said variants, or in other cases, place a dampener on the amount of profitable opportunities, which Latios itself is not so inherently strong to immediately pose a threat to under common battling circumstances. Additionally, Latios may also run into several moveset complications against teams with swaths of faster threats in Greninja, Mega Aerodactyl, and Scarfers like Enamorus to accompany many of the Pokemon above, which can make some of its defensive shortcomings far from unnoticeable. However, the mere threat of these options in conjunction with Latios’s natural power and attacking versatility still puts the reliability of such tactics into question.


Suspect Test Information
  • Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
7940
79.239
79.438
79.637
79.836
8035
80.234
80.433
80.632
80.831
8130
81.229
81.428
81.627
81.826
8225
82.224
82.423
82.622
82.821
8320
  • You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUU9TIOS. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDUU9TIOS Arishem.
  • You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Latios, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until March the 22nd at 11:59 PM GMT-4.
 
I was honestly quite surprised when this suspect was announced, as I felt like there were many things in the tier far more broken and oppressive than Latios at the moment.

We finally have usage stats for ssnl (s/o Pubo and whoever else worked on this), and while this sample is not perfect, I think it paints a pretty clear picture of the state of this tier rn
1710451768925.png

At the moment, Latios is sitting right outside of top 10 usage with a fairly healthy 55% winrate. This by itself doesn't speak much for how broken or not broken Latios is, but there's plenty of context here. Out of the top 10 mons, half of them, namely aegi, celly, ting lu, ttar, and clef, are some of the best checks we have for lati, and this likely contributes to lati's lower than expected usage and win rate. And it's not like these mons are solely there because they check latios, they are very excellent mons themselves, and will continue to thrive if lati is gone. Ttar in particular would most definitely appreciate being able to use its hp to check iron moth instead of having to stay healthy to take an aura sphere from lati. Celesteela is probably the best steel type in the tier and can fit on a multitude of archetypes with different sets. You would think that a broken mon would have the stats like those of thundy t and aegislash, who both are sitting at an insane 65% winrate with >20% usage, but that's not the case.

All of this points to a simple trend: the meta has adapted to latios. Whether it's running aegislash, azumarill, excadrill on offense, clef, ting lu on bulkier teams, or celesteela, ttar on both, the current meta actually makes lati somewhat difficult to build with. In fact, when I'm building, I don't really build around latios anymore; I find that the only reason i'm using lati is to have an offensively threatening check to thundy t, who imo is far more broken and oppressive in the builder than lati will ever be (seriously, 30% usage and 65% wr? That can't be healthy). Some people may say that latios doesnt have any long term checks because it received flip turn from the dlc, but this requires the lati player to get the flip turn play correct multiple times, and should they not be rewarded if they can do that? Not to mention that running flip turn requires lati to drop one of its stabs (walled by fairies or walled by psychic types), recovery (as if lati isnt already hazard weak enough), or crucial coverage in aura sphere (hard walled by ttar is simply awful and defeats the point of flip turn), which all feel terrible to discard.

I'm not sure if I even want to get reqs this point as my motivation to play this tier and its ladder are at an all time low at the moment but if I do, I will almost certainly be voting Do Not Ban.
 
I intend to vote ban on Latios.

Frankly, it’s never going to be an instant hit unlike what some will inevitably perceive as such. Over a year later, and I feel as if people are far too persistent towards holding onto the frameworks set by previous examples of banworthy threats. I find it difficult to say anything familiar falls under the more focal definitions as of now.

However, this does not mean Latios itself isn’t unusual in the way it forces recurring unhealthy and restrictive gameplay habits - trying to deal with the added prevalence Latios provides is an atrocious headache. The classic sets with 3 Attacks are already elite wallbreaking options, and are only made more irritating to handle with the inclusion of options that cover most things besides it, namely its ability to run Z-Moves (fixes its reliably in a lot of scenarios), boosting options, or general trends that make things consequently more and more limiting than before.
Latios (M) @ Dragonium Z / Soul Dew / Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Luster Purge
- Flip Turn
- Mystical Fire / Roost

Latios (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Luster Purge
- Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / Draco Meteor
- Aura Sphere / Mystical Fire / Flip Turn
- Roost

Latios (M) @ Dragonium Z / Electrium Z / Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draco Meteor / Luster Purge / Dragon Pulse
- Thunder / Luster Purge / Thunderbolt
- Roost / Mystical Fire

Latios (M) @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Luster Purge
- Flip Turn / Mystical Fire
- Trick

Latios can be picked off offensively, but it’s worth pointing out the number of crucial advantages that carry over to help it hold its own against these as well (As opposed to per se, Blacephalon - a far less common choice whose reward factor is usually outweighed by its other traits, hazard weakness, lack of defensive utility, speed tier .etc). Built-in defensive synergy with other things such as Amoonguss and Iron Hands is often widespread and works naturally in tandem to make the most of Latios’s essential traits.

To break down the individual matchup chart, if partially in response to the most common arguments emphasised:

  • :ting-lu: - Struggles to actually chip Latios outside of switching into attacks on most sets, which relegates it to being a damage sponge and/or opportunities to stack hazards, meaning Latios can afford to stay in and batter it as much as it likes, let alone be given momentum while doing so. Yes, Whirlwind in this scenario is a valid middle-ground to try and reverse momentum by drawing out the opponent’s losing matchups, but the chances of achieving this with the avenue of preventing Latios (with Spikes immune and its aforementioned switch-in opportunities) from making progress makes it far too inconsistent to be a sequence that is relied on.
  • :tyranitar-mega:- Definitely the most splashable and valuable Latios answer in the tier right now, and owing to its sheer versatility, is relied on by many teams to do far more as suggested. It also wants to set hazards, trade items against defensive options such as Clefable and Tangrowth 1v1, and occasionally, focus on setting Sand in the mid-game. Suffice to say, this take, while valid, also hinges on terms that are far from reliable when trying to deal with the most prevalent Latios sets in most cases.
    • 252 SpA Latios Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) - (Meteor follow up often finishes this after Rocks, +1 from CM too).
    • 252 SpA Latios-Mega Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 236-280 (69.2 - 82.1%)
  • :aegislash: - Almost always does the deed of pivoting in at least once, but risks Mystical Fire (prevents Shadow Ball from KOing back regardless of Aegislash’s spread in return), Sneak on traditional sets will also fail to go anywhere near OHKOing Latios so…

You also have a few more specific rises in things such as defensive Scizor sets on BO and AV Reuniclus on stall which extend towards checking it in some form, but I do not agree with the level of emphasis they are credited for, relative to the numerous personal issues they have and major inability to prevent any incremental progress in the long-run. I feel as if generally, defensive counterplay which can be universally agreed on is the use of Steel (usually Celesteela) + Fairy cores on balance - any less in practice faces the fundamental issue of being too easily exploitable, picked apart by the flexibility of different coverage options, or straight up both, aspects which Latios is more than capable of having the freedom to utilize in a standoff if needed.

The other issue in place of Latios effects on the metagame is also evident in how it best uses other conditions to its advantage from other perspectives. Latios itself is also an utterly immense if not, the biggest beneficiary of current metagame adaptions otherwise sourced against it (arguably besides Enamorus, but I digress); Ting-Lu’s Spikes, Aegislash’s ability to force in and heavy chip with nearly all its options, such as Celesteela, and even Mega Tyranitar for general Knock + Pursuit support if it comes down to it, since a lot of specially defensive pivots (Blissey, Clefable) don’t also have the means to cover these at once. It can be said as such that the existence of these elements are also things which continue to hinder the viability of most of the said counterplay options used, this goes without saying that in any of these circumstances, Flip Turn on a threat of Latios’s calibre makes facilitating this dynamic far easier compared to most options too.

Latios might not even be the most influential thing around right now, but pertaining to what’s ahead, and what ultimately needs to come, it does very much spell out the definitions of what I believe to be a presence undesirable for the metagame. Ban this.
 
Similar to Riceman, I was surprised to see Latios suspect-tested before Thundurus-Therian, given Thundy's insane power in ripping apart nearly every defensive structure. However, after playing a lot on ladder (do not recommend) and testing with some of the wonderful folks on the NDUU Discord, I wanted to drop some thoughts on Latios.

Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Luster Purge
- Aura Sphere
- Mystical Fire / Draco Meteor / Flip Turn
- Roost

Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Luster Purge
- Aura Sphere
- Roost / Flip Turn / Mystical Fire


Latios (M) @ Fightinium Z / Dragonium Z / Firium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Luster Purge
- Aura Sphere
- Mystical Fire / Draco Meteor
- Calm Mind

Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Luster Purge
- Flip Turn
- Trick

Personally, I believe that every Latios set should be running Luster Purge and Aura Sphere. Luster Purge is what allows it to beat things like Celesteela and Clefable with drops, as its often the button you want to be clicking as a mid-ground or just as a Super-effective attack. Aura Sphere is basically mandatory as you NEED to be able to beat Mega TTar and Ting Lu, and being able to snipe TTar from much higher health thresholds than Draco Meteor is what makes Latios so threatening. Draco Meteor is good neutral coverage but isn't always necessary, as Steels already are switching into Luster Purge. Mystical Fire is often my go to as it catches stuff like Aegislash and Scizor off guard very often. And honestly, as good as Flip Turn seems, why would you want to click it? Sure it allows you to maintain momentum on stuff like Ting Lu and avoid trapping by Tyranitar, but Aura Sphere is a clean 2HKO on almost all TTar anyways, and Ting Lu can barely touch Latios. Maybe controversial, but I think Flip Turn is bait and on most sets, should not be run.

Now do I think that Latios is broken? Originally I thought it was fine, but after playing with it, Latios has changed my mind. Personally I love Mega Latios because its increased bulk alongside no recoil from Life Orb gives it an insane amount of utility, switching into stuff like Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, Mega Venusaur, etc. No Life Orb means less reliance on Roost to offset hazards, which means Latios is free to throw off insane attacks. Luster + Aura + Mystical Fire is resisted by basically only Victini and other Latios/Latias, neither of which really love switching in and all of which can be exploited by Greninja, Aegislash, and Mega Tyranitar if you aren't running Mega Latios. Mega Latios on offense is one of the most disgustingly difficult mons to deal with, as its combination of power and defensive profile just gives it way too many opportunities to batter your team.

I will say that Latios, like many recent offensive threats, has 4MSS. Luster + Aura + MFire is great, but means that you don't have the stunning neutral power of Draco Meteor, nor the "utility" of Flip Turn or the Psychic/Ghost removing coverage in Shadow Ball. But honestly, thats what teammates are for. Latios is so often able to blast holes in defensive cores that teammates like Galarian Zapdos and Greninja can clean up the remains. These two can be problematic for Latios as well, but neither really love switching in. Offensive counterplay is limited because we have almost nothing faster, and many Scarf options like Rotom-W or even Gapdos can't OHKO Latios.

At first I was unsure about the Latios suspect, but I can see it know. I will be voting Ban on this thing, but I do hope that there will be a Thundurus-T QB immediately following. I will be honest though, I am concerned about the number of Bans we are implementing. The Tier is already small, so banning some of the premier Mons might turn the tier back into Gen 8 NDUU :worrywhirl:
 
Last edited:
I give up.” : r/DBZDokkanBattle


The Generation 9 National Dex UnderUsed Ladder destroyed my mind, but i'm still going to leave my thoughts here about our blue (and sometimes purple) friend even without voting this time. :eeveehide:


:ss/latios: :sm/latios mega:
My opinion has been changing since the start of this suspect. At first, i was 100% sure Latios was broken, but now i'm not super confident about that. For me, Latios 4MSS is really what makes him feel absurdly powerful, but not broken. Draco Meteor is the neutral "kill something" button, and you really notice how important it is in most matchups. Luster Purge pressuring his checks with SpD drops + coverage makes Latios really hard to deal defensively with usual specially defensive Pokemon like Celesteela, Aegislash, and Slowking. Coverage like Aura Sphere for Mega Tyranitar or Mystical Fire for Steel-types turns Latios into one of most scary wallbreakers to face at this moment, but you're most of the time losing a coverage for Roost to still keep Latios's defensive duties against Thundurus-T, Iron Hands, and etc. This means that while Latios threatens almost every team on paper, it can struggle against especific (and really common) checks when choosing coverage; without Mystical Fire, Latios becomes easily handled by Steel-types like Aegislash and Scizor and non-Aura Sphere sets are vulnerable to tier king Mega Tyranitar.

Although it may seem like a simple situation, Latios is responsable for changing how Bulky Offenses are built entirely by shifting defensive backbones to Ting-Lu + Celesteela cores, which are generally pretty good answers to it. I think this is one of the main reasons people are thinking about Latios as a healthy threat right now. These are not bad Pokemon by any means, but being forced to run both on almost EVERY team over other options (Hippowdown / Skarmory / Gastrodon) makes me start thinking that Latios is NOT a healthy threat down here.

Finally, i would like emphazise that the Suspect Test subject is Latios and thus when voting you should think about Latios, not how Thundurus-T or Iron Hands becomes even stronger with a potential Ban result. If other threats are or can be considered overbearing, they will be dealt eventually, sooner or later.

:mad:I'm neutral for this one, any of the two possible results is fine for me, but I would most likely choose BAN if i had reqs to do so. It seems that this one will be just like the Iron Moth suspect, a really close result. (who voted dnb? i will find you.....) :worrywhirl:
 
Very late post time!!!
Anyways I don't really know what I want to vote since both sides present good arguments. I wrote a lot here so apologies if it seems like rambling but this is just how I see the Latios counterplay in the tier.

Latios's Counterplay on Paper
In a vacuum Latios is broken since its set versatility can be a real issue to deal with since counterplay can only apply to certain sets and if it's running the right set then it can easily punish a would be check for just daring to switch in (Minor nitpick, we should drop mentions about Choice Scarf because it's not broken in the slightest and the power drop and move locking is very noticeable).

:Celesteela:
Celesteela is probably one of the hardest and splashable Latios checks in the tier and if it didn't exist then I'm sure DNB voters would be less keen on calling just "very strong" and instead call it unbalanced. It can effectively handle most Latios sets with it's stellar typing and behemoth special defense making Latios's powerful STABs feel a lot less spammable so it forces it to rely on Mystical Fire or Thunderbolt in order to properly beat it and the move are detrimental into threats like Tyranitar and Ting-Lu so it's not always used. HOWEVER, sets such as Life Orb and Choice Specs are far more free to drop Flip Turn for Celesteela coverage which creates a serious issue for the Celesteela player since you can't predict the set on team preview, meaning that you're forced to switch into a potential nightmare especially if you aren't stacking checks. And when it's finally revealed, its coverage moves tend to sting harshly with Mystical Fire chunking you of 30% of your HP at a minimum and at the very worst you are 2HKO'd by Specs Mystical Fire after Rocks / random chip (because keep in mind Celesteela has to deal with other threats throught the game like Enamorus and Excadrill)

:Ting-Lu:
Ting-Lu is another strong check in theory but the reality is that it's barely a good enough check in practice unless you're running a specific Ting-Lu variant to deal with Latios. Most of the Latios sets in this tier run recovery which just makes Ting-Lu a prime target to be abused by Aura Sphere sets or at the very least slowly chipped away by Draco Meteor while it can't really do much back except click Whirlwind. Now the Ting-Lu variant in question that can actually pressure Latios is Throat Chop instead of Ruination / Whirlwind. Giving up either of those two moves is pretty bad since dropping Ruination means that you have no way to punish Enamorus, Celesteela, Skarmory, Mega Sableye, Ting-Lu check #5, etc for switching in and makes Ting-Lu feel significantly more passive than it should be in order to deal with a singular threat. Dropping Whirlwind is a little better but still mediocre since you can't even dream of checking threats like Galarian Moltres, Hydreigon, or even threats like Reuniclus and Clefable while doing worse into foes like Meteor Beam Celesteela. Dropping Whirlwind also means you're giving up a major progress forcer for Ting-Lu since it enjoys using that move to hazard shuffle. And again this is all so you can slot a medicore coverage option to beat a single mon. A mon that can still more or less invalidate you with Flip Turn sets and a common enough partner like Iron Hands or Galarian Zapdos

:Celesteela::Ting-Lu:
Now the core of Celesteela + Ting-Lu can actually be a great response to Latios and makes it feel like a walk in the park to deal with. It also helps a lot that this core is really popular since it blanket checks large parts of the tier such as Excadrill, some Mega Tyranitar variants, CM Clefable and Mega Latias, Enamorus, Iron Moth, etc. But the core itself is quite abusable by mons like Iron Hands and Thundurus-T, making building either very centralized (You can often seen Mega Venusaur and Clefable on these types of cores as a third) or forgoing the core in order to secure a better matchup into other threats.

:Aegislash:
If you're not running into Mystical Fire Latios, then Aegislash is a really good check to it and even helps to scout the Latios sets with King Shield. It's pretty hard to wear it down with Flip Turn pivoting too and it's great at punishing common Latios partners like Iron Hands and Ting-Lu as well. It fit's on every playstyle besides Stall I guess and even more offensive variants of Aegislash can still be threatening to it with Shadow Sneak. Of course switching into Mystical Fire is a pain in the ass so those sets are bound to be very frustrating to play against if Aegislash is your only check.

:Tyranitar-Mega:
Mega Tyranitar is a strong answer since it traps Latios with Pursuit and only loses to the Aura Sphere variants, which aren't as common anymore. But Flip Turn Latios can still wear this down a lot so a lot of wonky positioning is required to actually trap Latios (ergo baiting it into clicking one of its STABs which it almost never will if there is a Mega Tyranitar on the field so).

:Clefable:
Special defensive Clefable is an decent enough check to Latios since it can switch into Luster Purge fairly well and punish it with Thunder Wave / Moonblast. But the set itself is... not that great? At least in my experience since Clefable also wants to check threats like Galarian Zapdos and Mega Tyranitar and it can't do that with the special defensive sets and the set overall doesn't actually check a lot over the regular physically defensive sets since most of the special attackers in the tier already have a way to beat down Clefable (Sludge Wave / Boosted Tbolt from Thundurus-T, Iron Moth and Mega Venusaur just existing, Enamorus wiping it off the map with Choice Specs, etc). Hell even Latios, a mon it should be able to check in theory, can overwhelm it with Luster Purge stat drops.

:Scizor:
Bulky Scizor is pretty solid as a check but it runs into a similar problem with Celesteela and Aegislash where it really hates taking Mystical Fire. Scizor stands out since it's better for more offensive teams since you're not sinking your momentum as much when you hard switch into Latios and you can regain it easily with U-Turn or Swords Dance. Latios teammates such as Iron Hands and Iron Moth abuse the hell out of this so Flip Turn variants can screw with you a lot which is not something a Scizor player wants to hear since Flip Turn is very common on Latios.

:Slowking:
Slowking is another very solid check since you only lose to the rare Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball variants of Latios which makes it a very powerful way to scout Latios's set. After cleanly eating something like Latios's Draco Meteor, you can just Teleport into a more offensive check like Enamorus or click Future Sight or Thunder Wave / Scald to force progress. I also have been seeing Toxic variants of this mon pop up since you also punish threats like Thundurus-T and Galarian Moltres for switching in. All in all, it's a good check but Flip Turn variants annoy this as they can partner with threats such as Mega Tyranitar and wipe Slowking off the map (we call that a skilled outplay though and I'm being dead serious) so you have to more cautious than usual when playing that scenerio but it's in no way an impossible task.

:Tangrowth:
Yo this is the check ever!!! Just pray that you're not facing Specs Mystical Fire or Mega Latios!!! Assault Vest Tangrowth sets seem ok on paper as a way to scout Latios and partially check it but you can only really click Knock Off in order to force progress and if it's a Mega or Z-move variant than you're doing a whole lot of nothing back to it bar maybe getting lucky with Sludge Bomb fishing. And then, as was just said, running into Choice Specs sets (or just Mystical Fire in general) is a nightmare because it will 2HKO you making it a rather poor check so you can't use Tangrowth to check Latios solely. Definitely would stack a check like Celesteela or Ting-Lu then it's fine. And again that's in no way a hard thing to do since they are great in this tier and insanely splashable.

:Chansey:
Chansey is a really good counter to Latios but realistically it's only going to be seen on stall teams so it's not very relevant to the discussion. Although it's strong it's just way too passive and hazards prone for a standard team to want in a Latios check, espeically when Latios can just Flip Turn into a hard-counter like Galarian Zapdos or Morning Sun Iron Moth. Specs variants will also render this mon crippled for the rest of the game which is awful for a blanket special wall and more often than not stall's ONLY good special wall on a team.

:Reuniclus:
Minor quip about Reuniclus because it was mentioned as a niche check, Assault Vest isn't good ever since Toxapex left and from experience it was barely a check to begin with (Stat drop from Luster + Draco = Game Over)

:Aggron-Mega::Blissey::Jirachi:
@ anything B- or below on the VR, you aren't mentioned for a reason: You all suck except for like really specific situations where I really need you. Not gonna mention how good of a check Mega Aggron is when it is seldom used and rarely worthwhile.

How Latios Is Dealt With In Practice

:Ting-Lu::Celesteela::Aegislash:
For the most part I think just having a least one of Ting-Lu, Celesteela, or Aegislash on your team should be enough defensive counterplay since they can scout and deal with most of Latios's sets on their own but you still probably need to run offensive counterplay alongside it to have outs in case you run into the wrong set or alternatively stack defensive checks (re: Ting-Lu + Celesteela). Slotting this counterplay isn't that difficult and a lot of playstyles and teams can successfully run the Defensive + Offensive Latios check core since they are pretty much used regardless of Latios being in the metagame so they fit naturally on teams.

Purely offensive checks

:Greninja:
Greninja is probably one of the best offensive Latios checks out there and can easily revenge kill it, while also abusing Latios's partners with its own colorful movepool (it's probably also problematic in the long run but I digress). But obviously the biggest issue is that it can't switch into Latios very well unless you correctly switch into Luster Purge which is a rather risky call, so in that case you 100% need a defensive check to run with Greninja or at the very least a Draco Meteor switch in like Clefable or Enamorus. Otherwise you're always kinda just forced to sack something in order to get Greninja in safely.

:Bisharp:
Unlike Greninja, Bisharp is a much stronger check to Latios since its typing lets it switch into both of its STABs but obviously coverage moves like Aura Sphere will fuck with it so still switching in is annoying as hell. Fortunately that isn't a huge hurdle to climb especially you are running partners that pressure Latios into wanting to click its STABs intead of coverage (such as Enamorus or Iron Hands), so getting in isn't that hard and when you do you can easily pressure it out with the threat of Sucker Punch or just remove it entirely with Pursuit (massive win). Another option is just to use it as setup fodder if you're the SD variant (also great!!!).

:Excadrill:
Excadrill is pretty ass as a check and the only reason it's being mentioned here is because it switches into both STABs well and does massive damage back to it with Z-Iron Head on the Sand Rush sets. Sand as a playstyle is pretty well suited with dealing with Latios anyways with mons like Dracozolt, Celesteela, Slowking, Mega Tyranitar, etc being really common so if you're truly struggling with Latios when playing sand then you have to be throwing or something #ngl.

:Enamorus:
Enamorus is like a fake check? It hates switching into Luster Purge and is slower so most Latios variants can deal with it unless it's Choice Scarf. Thankfully Scarf Enamorus is one of the most common sets in the tier so that's not a huge issue. Although its longevity is pretty piss poor as it gets worn down really fast by rocks. Honestly that's not horrible since good positioning, such as pivoting off a Slowking or Scizor, can grant you success.

:Zapdos-Galar::Hydreigon:
Choice Scarf users like Galarian Zapdos and Hydreigon can work well enough as a Latios check but, like Greninja, switching into it is a chore so you need to have a defensive switch in to it. Which again, isn't that big a hassle because it's not hard to fit Latios counterplay on teams.

Conclusion

I think because of the fact that a lot of Latios's defensive checks are "fake" depending on the set, the high variance of said sets making it a headache to respond to sometimes, and the semi-shakiness of its offensive counterplay, I would vote ban. But that said, I'm not really going to care all that much if it stays legal either since this metagame has a ton of ways to counteract Latios aside from just running direct counters and the constrain it has on the builder isn't that bad since you aren't really forced to run these to check Latios solely, but rather because they are good mons that you can just naturally fit in teambuilding. Like to the point where, I would see teams unintentionally stack checks to Latios and it doing nothing great aside from being a Flip Turn bot.


I am concerned about the number of Bans we are implementing. The Tier is already small, so banning some of the premier Mons might turn the tier back into Gen 8 NDUU

Last gen banned like 41 mons by the end of the gen and I still think they ended it with controversial mons like Aegislash still remaining. Current gen has only banned 26 mons by comparison so even if we somehow ban 41 mons from the tier it's still going to retain its identity and in no way will look like Gen 8 so lets not use this as an argument or even a mere concern when looking at issues.

@ Anti-Thundy-T Crowed, I agree it's broken lets remove it from the tier after this.

edit: my fault for the random ping Anti
 
Very late post time!!!
Anyways I don't really know what I want to vote since both sides present good arguments. I wrote a lot here so apologies if it seems like rambling but this is just how I see the Latios counterplay in the tier.

Latios's Counterplay on Paper
In a vacuum Latios is broken since its set versatility can be a real issue to deal with since counterplay can only apply to certain sets and if it's running the right set then it can easily punish a would be check for just daring to switch in (Minor nitpick, we should drop mentions about Choice Scarf because it's not broken in the slightest and the power drop and move locking is very noticeable).

:Celesteela:
Celesteela is probably one of the hardest and splashable Latios checks in the tier and if it didn't exist then I'm sure DNB voters would be less keen on calling just "very strong" and instead call it unbalanced. It can effectively handle most Latios sets with it's stellar typing and behemoth special defense making Latios's powerful STABs feel a lot less spammable so it forces it to rely on Mystical Fire or Thunderbolt in order to properly beat it and the move are detrimental into threats like Tyranitar and Ting-Lu so it's not always used. HOWEVER, sets such as Life Orb and Choice Specs are far more free to drop Flip Turn for Celesteela coverage which creates a serious issue for the Celesteela player since you can't predict the set on team preview, meaning that you're forced to switch into a potential nightmare especially if you aren't stacking checks. And when it's finally revealed, its coverage moves tend to sting harshly with Mystical Fire chunking you of 30% of your HP at a minimum and at the very worst you are 2HKO'd by Specs Mystical Fire after Rocks / random chip (because keep in mind Celesteela has to deal with other threats throught the game like Enamorus and Excadrill)

:Ting-Lu:
Ting-Lu is another strong check in theory but the reality is that it's barely a good enough check in practice unless you're running a specific Ting-Lu variant to deal with Latios. Most of the Latios sets in this tier run recovery which just makes Ting-Lu a prime target to be abused by Aura Sphere sets or at the very least slowly chipped away by Draco Meteor while it can't really do much back except click Whirlwind. Now the Ting-Lu variant in question that can actually pressure Latios is Throat Chop instead of Ruination / Whirlwind. Giving up either of those two moves is pretty bad since dropping Ruination means that you have no way to punish Enamorus, Celesteela, Skarmory, Mega Sableye, Ting-Lu check #5, etc for switching in and makes Ting-Lu feel significantly more passive than it should be in order to deal with a singular threat. Dropping Whirlwind is a little better but still mediocre since you can't even dream of checking threats like Galarian Moltres, Hydreigon, or even threats like Reuniclus and Clefable while doing worse into foes like Meteor Beam Celesteela. Dropping Whirlwind also means you're giving up a major progress forcer for Ting-Lu since it enjoys using that move to hazard shuffle. And again this is all so you can slot a medicore coverage option to beat a single mon. A mon that can still more or less invalidate you with Flip Turn sets and a common enough partner like Iron Hands or Galarian Zapdos

:Celesteela::Ting-Lu:
Now the core of Celesteela + Ting-Lu can actually be a great response to Latios and makes it feel like a walk in the park to deal with. It also helps a lot that this core is really popular since it blanket checks large parts of the tier such as Excadrill, some Mega Tyranitar variants, CM Clefable and Mega Latias, Enamorus, Iron Moth, etc. But the core itself is quite abusable by mons like Iron Hands and Thundurus-T, making building either very centralized (You can often seen Mega Venusaur and Clefable on these types of cores as a third) or forgoing the core in order to secure a better matchup into other threats.

:Aegislash:
If you're not running into Mystical Fire Latios, then Aegislash is a really good check to it and even helps to scout the Latios sets with King Shield. It's pretty hard to wear it down with Flip Turn pivoting too and it's great at punishing common Latios partners like Iron Hands and Ting-Lu as well. It fit's on every playstyle besides Stall I guess and even more offensive variants of Aegislash can still be threatening to it with Shadow Sneak. Of course switching into Mystical Fire is a pain in the ass so those sets are bound to be very frustrating to play against if Aegislash is your only check.

:Tyranitar-Mega:
Mega Tyranitar is a strong answer since it traps Latios with Pursuit and only loses to the Aura Sphere variants, which aren't as common anymore. But Flip Turn Latios can still wear this down a lot so a lot of wonky positioning is required to actually trap Latios (ergo baiting it into clicking one of its STABs which it almost never will if there is a Mega Tyranitar on the field so).

:Clefable:
Special defensive Clefable is an decent enough check to Latios since it can switch into Luster Purge fairly well and punish it with Thunder Wave / Moonblast. But the set itself is... not that great? At least in my experience since Clefable also wants to check threats like Galarian Zapdos and Mega Tyranitar and it can't do that with the special defensive sets and the set overall doesn't actually check a lot over the regular physically defensive sets since most of the special attackers in the tier already have a way to beat down Clefable (Sludge Wave / Boosted Tbolt from Thundurus-T, Iron Moth and Mega Venusaur just existing, Enamorus wiping it off the map with Choice Specs, etc). Hell even Latios, a mon it should be able to check in theory, can overwhelm it with Luster Purge stat drops.

:Scizor:
Bulky Scizor is pretty solid as a check but it runs into a similar problem with Celesteela and Aegislash where it really hates taking Mystical Fire. Scizor stands out since it's better for more offensive teams since you're not sinking your momentum as much when you hard switch into Latios and you can regain it easily with U-Turn or Swords Dance. Latios teammates such as Iron Hands and Iron Moth abuse the hell out of this so Flip Turn variants can screw with you a lot which is not something a Scizor player wants to hear since Flip Turn is very common on Latios.

:Slowking:
Slowking is another very solid check since you only lose to the rare Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball variants of Latios which makes it a very powerful way to scout Latios's set. After cleanly eating something like Latios's Draco Meteor, you can just Teleport into a more offensive check like Enamorus or click Future Sight or Thunder Wave / Scald to force progress. I also have been seeing Toxic variants of this mon pop up since you also punish threats like Thundurus-T and Galarian Moltres for switching in. All in all, it's a good check but Flip Turn variants annoy this as they can partner with threats such as Mega Tyranitar and wipe Slowking off the map (we call that a skilled outplay though and I'm being dead serious) so you have to more cautious than usual when playing that scenerio but it's in no way an impossible task.

:Tangrowth:
Yo this is the check ever!!! Just pray that you're not facing Specs Mystical Fire or Mega Latios!!! Assault Vest Tangrowth sets seem ok on paper as a way to scout Latios and partially check it but you can only really click Knock Off in order to force progress and if it's a Mega or Z-move variant than you're doing a whole lot of nothing back to it bar maybe getting lucky with Sludge Bomb fishing. And then, as was just said, running into Choice Specs sets (or just Mystical Fire in general) is a nightmare because it will 2HKO you making it a rather poor check so you can't use Tangrowth to check Latios solely. Definitely would stack a check like Celesteela or Ting-Lu then it's fine. And again that's in no way a hard thing to do since they are great in this tier and insanely splashable.

:Chansey:
Chansey is a really good counter to Latios but realistically it's only going to be seen on stall teams so it's not very relevant to the discussion. Although it's strong it's just way too passive and hazards prone for a standard team to want in a Latios check, espeically when Latios can just Flip Turn into a hard-counter like Galarian Zapdos or Morning Sun Iron Moth. Specs variants will also render this mon crippled for the rest of the game which is awful for a blanket special wall and more often than not stall's ONLY good special wall on a team.

:Reuniclus:
Minor quip about Reuniclus because it was mentioned as a niche check, Assault Vest isn't good ever since Toxapex left and from experience it was barely a check to begin with (Stat drop from Luster + Draco = Game Over)

:Aggron-Mega::Blissey::Jirachi:
@ anything B- or below on the VR, you aren't mentioned for a reason: You all suck except for like really specific situations where I really need you. Not gonna mention how good of a check Mega Aggron is when it is seldom used and rarely worthwhile.

How Latios Is Dealt With In Practice

:Ting-Lu::Celesteela::Aegislash:
For the most part I think just having a least one of Ting-Lu, Celesteela, or Aegislash on your team should be enough defensive counterplay since they can scout and deal with most of Latios's sets on their own but you still probably need to run offensive counterplay alongside it to have outs in case you run into the wrong set or alternatively stack defensive checks (re: Ting-Lu + Celesteela). Slotting this counterplay isn't that difficult and a lot of playstyles and teams can successfully run the Defensive + Offensive Latios check core since they are pretty much used regardless of Latios being in the metagame so they fit naturally on teams.

Purely offensive checks

:Greninja:
Greninja is probably one of the best offensive Latios checks out there and can easily revenge kill it, while also abusing Latios's partners with its own colorful movepool (it's probably also problematic in the long run but I digress). But obviously the biggest issue is that it can't switch into Latios very well unless you correctly switch into Luster Purge which is a rather risky call, so in that case you 100% need a defensive check to run with Greninja or at the very least a Draco Meteor switch in like Clefable or Enamorus. Otherwise you're always kinda just forced to sack something in order to get Greninja in safely.

:Bisharp:
Unlike Greninja, Bisharp is a much stronger check to Latios since its typing lets it switch into both of its STABs but obviously coverage moves like Aura Sphere will fuck with it so still switching in is annoying as hell. Fortunately that isn't a huge hurdle to climb especially you are running partners that pressure Latios into wanting to click its STABs intead of coverage (such as Enamorus or Iron Hands), so getting in isn't that hard and when you do you can easily pressure it out with the threat of Sucker Punch or just remove it entirely with Pursuit (massive win). Another option is just to use it as setup fodder if you're the SD variant (also great!!!).

:Excadrill:
Excadrill is pretty ass as a check and the only reason it's being mentioned here is because it switches into both STABs well and does massive damage back to it with Z-Iron Head on the Sand Rush sets. Sand as a playstyle is pretty well suited with dealing with Latios anyways with mons like Dracozolt, Celesteela, Slowking, Mega Tyranitar, etc being really common so if you're truly struggling with Latios when playing sand then you have to be throwing or something #ngl.

:Enamorus:
Enamorus is like a fake check? It hates switching into Luster Purge and is slower so most Latios variants can deal with it unless it's Choice Scarf. Thankfully Scarf Enamorus is one of the most common sets in the tier so that's not a huge issue. Although its longevity is pretty piss poor as it gets worn down really fast by rocks. Honestly that's not horrible since good positioning, such as pivoting off a Slowking or Scizor, can grant you success.

:Zapdos-Galar::Hydreigon:
Choice Scarf users like Galarian Zapdos and Hydreigon can work well enough as a Latios check but, like Greninja, switching into it is a chore so you need to have a defensive switch in to it. Which again, isn't that big a hassle because it's not hard to fit Latios counterplay on teams.

Conclusion

I think because of the fact that a lot of Latios's defensive checks are "fake" depending on the set, the high variance of said sets making it a headache to respond to sometimes, and the semi-shakiness of its offensive counterplay, I would vote ban. But that said, I'm not really going to care all that much if it stays legal either since this metagame has a ton of ways to counteract Latios aside from just running direct counters and the constrain it has on the builder isn't that bad since you aren't really forced to run these to check Latios solely, but rather because they are good mons that you can just naturally fit in teambuilding. Like to the point where, I would see teams unintentionally stack checks to Latios and it doing nothing great aside from being a Flip Turn bot.

I agree with almost all of your reasoning but came to the exact opposite conclusion from the same reasoning. In particular,
this metagame has a ton of ways to counteract Latios aside from just running direct counters and the constrain it has on the builder isn't that bad since you aren't really forced to run these to check Latios solely, but rather because they are good mons that you can just naturally fit in teambuilding. Like to the point where, I would see teams unintentionally stack checks to Latios and it doing nothing great aside from being a Flip Turn bot.
usually is a very good indication that something is strong but a healthy presence.

Also I think the dominance of mega ttar is very understated here. Nearly everyone agrees that megatar is a top 2 (and not 2) mon in the tier rn, and sure, it loses if it switches in on aura sphere, but even then, it's extremely good at restricting what latios can do in a given matchup. If megatar is at full hp, any time latios takes a kill, it's dead because latios can't OHKO ttar aside from the extremely specific and mediocre fightinium z (don't use this). This makes clicking draco with lati especially suboptimal, as not only do you lose your lati, you also fail to get significant chip on the opposing ttar for your teammates (iron moth). Not to mention if ttar comes in hard on draco, you're toast. The presence of ttar alone kind of forces lati to be a flip turn bot since it's living in constant fear of getting trapped, and good players can easily take advantage of that.

I've seen steela lu mentioned as the core necessary for stopping latios reliably, and if this were the only core that guaranteed you didn't lose to lati, then yeah lati would be pretty broken, since having to run ting lu on every balance and bulky offense team would suck. But no, mega ttar is literally sitting right there waiting to click buttons, and it just happens to fit on every single viable archetype in the tier. In practice mega ttar + anything that can switch into lati more than twice (steela, aegi, clef, etc.) should be good enough to beat lati, and if you still find yourself losing to latios, maybe you should be blaming your own poor play instead of latios for being strong.
 
Hello everyone, just doing a quick post with some quick thoughts on the conversation going on and if this is not good or anything then i apologize but i just wanted to talk for a bit.

So far, with all the arguments shown both in favor and agaisn't Latios, i think the biggest issue that the tier has is just the amount of things to deal with and how easy it can be to deal with the common defensive cores, leaving the tier in such a mess where either limiting yourself to Offense or Stall is often the better shot at keeping up with things.

"What would be the most constraining aspects of this current meta?"

There's a lot of mons atm that are on a very thin path towards the unhealthy/broken side ( :iron moth::tyranitar-mega: ) and a good amount of them could be considered too much ( :iron hands: :thundurus-therian: ). With the way things are and how they're going, progress is being made extremely slowly and somewhat inefficiently with some errors here and there, the way everything here started with the Latios suspect that was planned ended up being kind of controversial due to Thundurus-T becoming a lot more opressive and with how people have been spamming the hell out of Celesteela, Ting-Lu and others in order to keep up with things really hinders building and play.

I still feel like Latios is overwhelming, we don't really benefit from keeping this thing around when we're just going to continue using the same cores with slightly different variations in breakers that Latios will easily enable considering how easily versatile it can be in both the builder and during a match (Calm Mind sets for example, those take advantage of so many common defensive cores on BO while still being a massive threat due to strong Dracos and Luster Purges).

If possible i'd like to have this Banned for the sake of not dealing with something that's just gonna be centralizing in a few months later again and right now i think suspects at the moment aren't doing us any favors if we're just gonna keep wasting time on things we know are being detrimental to the meta (after the Latios suspect) and maybe get more immediate action (possibly having a Survey or quickban slates). If you found this kind of a weird post in writing then yeah i'm not really good at explaining things so i once again wanna apologize and hope everyone has a good day.
 
Hello everyone, just doing a quick post with some quick thoughts on the conversation going on and if this is not good or anything then i apologize but i just wanted to talk for a bit.

So far, with all the arguments shown both in favor and agaisn't Latios, i think the biggest issue that the tier has is just the amount of things to deal with and how easy it can be to deal with the common defensive cores, leaving the tier in such a mess where either limiting yourself to Offense or Stall is often the better shot at keeping up with things.

"What would be the most constraining aspects of this current meta?"

There's a lot of mons atm that are on a very thin path towards the unhealthy/broken side ( :iron moth::tyranitar-mega: ) and a good amount of them could be considered too much ( :iron hands: :thundurus-therian: ). With the way things are and how they're going, progress is being made extremely slowly and somewhat inefficiently with some errors here and there, the way everything here started with the Latios suspect that was planned ended up being kind of controversial due to Thundurus-T becoming a lot more opressive and with how people have been spamming the hell out of Celesteela, Ting-Lu and others in order to keep up with things really hinders building and play.

I still feel like Latios is overwhelming, we don't really benefit from keeping this thing around when we're just going to continue using the same cores with slightly different variations in breakers that Latios will easily enable considering how easily versatile it can be in both the builder and during a match (Calm Mind sets for example, those take advantage of so many common defensive cores on BO while still being a massive threat due to strong Dracos and Luster Purges).

If possible i'd like to have this Banned for the sake of not dealing with something that's just gonna be centralizing in a few months later again and right now i think suspects at the moment aren't doing us any favors if we're just gonna keep wasting time on things we know are being detrimental to the meta (after the Latios suspect) and maybe get more immediate action (possibly having a Survey or quickban slates). If you found this kind of a weird post in writing then yeah i'm not really good at explaining things so i once again wanna apologize and hope everyone has a good day.

I don’t understand why people in the discord and this thread think that Latios will be a problem in a couple months if it’s not a problem now. It makes it seem like even the people arguing for Ban don’t really think Latios is a problem at the moment. If anything, Latios would become easier to deal with if more oppressive mons like thundy t and hands are banned.

Getting something done just for the sake of getting something done is simply not how tiering should be done. Sure maybe some people are frustrated that Iron Moth stayed in the tier (maybe the ban crowd should have actually made a post or gotten reqs instead of blaming dnb voters), but that shouldn’t be a reason for why Latios should be banned.
 
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