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Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #643)
- Thread starter ausma
- Start date
Responding just from my pov not on behalf of the whole vr council
Here's the Amuk set I use, for reference:
Muk-Alola (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 220 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch / Drain Punch
- Protect
40 attack+adamant allows muk-a to ohko pult with knock off, 2hko darkrai with 2 poison jabs and 1 round of poison chip, and still survive 2 attacks from booster raging bolt. Ice Punch will almost always 2hko sdef gliscor as well.
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 220 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch / Drain Punch
- Protect
40 attack+adamant allows muk-a to ohko pult with knock off, 2hko darkrai with 2 poison jabs and 1 round of poison chip, and still survive 2 attacks from booster raging bolt. Ice Punch will almost always 2hko sdef gliscor as well.
The #1 thing holding back Amuk right now is Gliscor. The bastard scorpion takes advantage of amuk to the fullest extent and it's really sad to see what should be amuk's best matchup (taking advantage of glowking BOs/balances) get crushed to dust.
Let's say you want to try running ice punch to dampen this weakness. But you want poison jab+knock for stabs and you want protect to gain leftovers but crucially block future sight. I don't consider protect to be optional when running amuk, completely blanking glowking progress is the #1 reason to run it. That leaves your last slot for drain punch, without which you are a sitting duck for kingambit, or ice punch, without which you are a sitting duck into gliscor, both of which are top tier threats and neither of which are super easy to contain. This moveslot struggle is just the start, and you have to compensate for it in teambuilding.
Now to correct some statements here. Amuk is not that good of a check to gholdengo. You can beat some sets, but you will lose to others. Tragically, a bulky air balloon gholdengo can literally just eat your knock off and NP+recover in your face after losing its item, not even needing to tera:
40+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gholdengo: 132-156 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You will even lose to NP/twave/hex/recover because you will just get paralyzed and fail to do enough damage through full paras as they spam NP and recover until they're ready to hex you down at +6.
It has good matchups vs a lot of special attackers but it's a complete sitting duck vs tons of other mons aside from gliscor, like skarm, corv, iron treads, glimmora, lando-t, ting-lu, etc. Many of these mons are ok with getting knocked if it means setting up layers, and amuk necessitates hazard removal with protect+leftovers, so you're putting pressure on your teammates by letting hazards go up + wanting removal.
I wouldn't rank amuk any higher than C, we just didn't remember it bc it's not very good.
Rmoon has just fallen off in general. It just doesn't tend to get going vs the standard lando-t/zama/raging bolt offenses, and everybody is prepared for tera flying eq acro dd knock with a variety of splashable options like sucker gambit, barb clef, toxic gliscor, garg etc paired with any priority. There are a few nice alternative sets like roost tera ghost but overall it doesn't deserve to be A+, and I voted for it to drop to A.
Tusk is tusk as always but it faces competition as a ground type with lando-t and as a fighting type with zamazenta, and there's an uptick of some ting-lu+sinistcha builds that can really destroy teams reliant on tusk for removal. It's still the best glue in the tier imo and enables tons of other builds and mons but it's hard to say that its performance is dominant right now. It's quite limited in set variety (anything slower than gholdengo is unviable, BU sets lose to roar id zama, you often want to slap rocks on it and you need ice spinner for gliscor)I voted for it to drop to A+.
Pult's speed tier and versatility is still king, and I think it benefits from an offensive tier where it can decide who to u-turn on, who to t-wave or wisp, etc. In a tier where zamazenta is better than ever, pult is gonna remain valuable for threatening outspeed+wisp and body press immune. I've started to see more specs and band sets recently as well, likely for their ability to ohko darkrai where the standard boots sets would need to tera dragon draco. All of it contributes to pult staying dominant.
We didn't vote on gapdos, and the highest I'd raise it is D tier. I tried it months ago and it's kinda just...slow and frail and not that strong either? I tried using BU 3 attacks sets with thunderous kick to pressure dondozo but it is forced out by so much and not even that good as a fatbreaker, it's ass and always will be imo. Scarf's speed tier sucks ass imo and band didn't seem appealing either.
Kanto Muk still has a stall exclusive niche as a sticky hold user that is much less tera reliant than hydrapple and gastrodon, having enough physdef to naturally take on meow/weavile better with the pure poison defensive typing+stab poison jab to get better matchups vs knock clefable, knock ival, and waterpon. Beats prima too. No stall is all set with just one knock absorb and muk can be a great part of the knock absorb core. I voted to keep it at D?
Okay, I'll elaborate a little;
Muk remains in D, but why? Its Sticky Hold niche is not exclusive, being competed with Hydrapple and Gastrodon, while the evolution of stall structures easily places Clefable as the second most viable Knock Off absorb.
I still mention how Muk is exploitable by Gliscor and dependent on Rest.
Komala has unique niches blocking status-abusing passive threats and preventing simple Future Sight builds from making progress. It also ignores Neutralizing Gas which corrupts most stall teams that rely heavily on its abilities.
Komala needs to be introduced in D or Muk's position needs to be revisited.
Also I have zero clue what komala does, you're gonna have to show some replays.
Gimmick mon that's not even great at trapping kingambit, it'll get fried by low kick. This will not get brought to a serious battle. I'd vote D at best if it was on the slate.still uranked while having reached top1 in SV OU
***
I will also take this post to call out Mimikyu Stardust for being stinky but also incorrect about sun and torkoal. Sun has plenty of options to work around stuff like tspikes, garg, raging bolt and you can make good sun teams without stacking too many dragon/fairy weaknesses. More importantly though, I think healing wish on ninetales is grossly overrated. If you were using healing wish on a disposable mon like hatterene, be my guest, but using hwish on your weather setter is something that can only be done rarely. Encore is the real highlight of ninetales, hwish is mid.
In my experience, you often swap your weakened sun setter to die to an attack lategame to set up your final sun turns and try to close out the game. Rarely do you have the opportunity lategame to both get a free turn for ninetales to hwish and be ok with losing future sun turns. I find that many sun set up mons (bu tusk, sd lilligant-hisui, growth venu) and lategame cleaners (speed boosting wake, iron moth, cb moon) need sun active more than they need healing wish to win lategames.
Moving rocks to torkoal also frees up mons like heatran, tusk, and even tinkaton to run more interesting sets. More importantly, the matchup against ribombee allows you to win 1v1 without webs being set up if you outplay once (psychic vs webs on fire stab vs rapid spin), whereas ribombee can brainlessly lead vs ninetales and webs will destroy most sun teams.
Torkoal itself is only as passive as you let it be. Invested Overheat can ohko darkrai and put you ahead vs some standard offense builds. Losing yawn sucked but there's other techs like rock tomb, wisp, and eq which can allow torkoal to not give many free turns. It's not worse than ninetales imo, and sun as a whole is an A- playstyle in my book.
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Minor clarification on the Future Sight point, is this to say using Protect to Sponge the opposing attack on the Future Sight turn, since I believe the move still regards Type Match-ups and thus would blank into AMuk? Or is this just me confusing the phrasing as AMuk running "STABs, Protect for Leftovers, and also blocks Future Sight on top of the moves it runs"?
What Srn means is that using Protect allows Muk-Alola to completely block an attack from something that would outright threaten to do huge damage against it along with blocking Future Sight damage. Without Protect, the Muk-Alola user would be forced to switch into something that would both take damage from the incoming attack and Future Sight.
I definitely think band is the best set in ou, wrote a nom for it a few weeks back in this very thread.
(Post linked below)
While not super fast, it's not super slow either, and between its extremely theatening stabs + knock and u-turn it has very few switchins. It comes in easily and often due to its typing granting it rocks neutrality and spikes immunity, and the only mons who really resist its coverage (dengo and lessoften zapdos-k) hate taking a knock off, the former being ohko'd if it's offensive. With rocks up, this mon 2hkos esentially minus ironically bulky zapdos-k. While obviously held back a middling speed stat and its tendency to ko itself with brave bird, it'sfar from frail with 90/90/90 defenses, far from slow with 100 speed (notably outspeeding dengo, tusk, and ku and threatening an ohko on all of them), and has a scary 125 attack to pair with nigh unresistable 120 bp dual stab. I think D tier or even C is fair, though wouldn't push for any higher.
Just wondering but why isn't glowking S- anymore? what made it drop
fuck yeah, tinkaton gaming
PLEASE OU, DO NOT TAKE TINKATON AWAY FROM US NOOO
good news! you force Kingambit to Tera early and know what it is instead of guessing between Dark / Water / Fairy / Fire
bad news, you now have a dead weight on your team
Not saying Probopass should be ranked necessarily, but the whole point of Probopass is that you put it on team compositions that want to force an early Tera out of Kingambit, effectively meaning Probopass will do its job either way.
As a general rule of thumb, just because something isn't ranked doesn't mean it can't be used to some effect or that it doesn't have an applicable niche. When things are ranked, it's on the basis of having been proven as usable in numerous scenarios and structures beyond just a select few that peak ladder. Anybody can succeed with anything--that's the beauty of this game--but the nature of viability is one that is rooted in some level of fluidity, reliability, and value of a given niche relative to other competing Pokemon. Gimmicks tend to either outright not fill these requirements, or are comically fringe to a point where they are not worth pursuing.
On another note
A- -> B+/B
I'll be blunt and just say what may be a little harsh/controversial but Don kinda blows at this point in time. Despite being a physical wall, it still finds itself exploited or abused by things it is supposed to check. It's also one of the worst mons to have knocked off because of how it gets shredded by hazards afterwards and forced to rest often. It's taunt/encore food, it gets looped by u-turn and it generally hates the direction of the metagame. It's also got awful moveslot issues of needing rest/sleeptalk, and if it runs coverage to not be helpless against certain physical threats then it drops curse leaving it immensely passive. But curse sets struggle to pick the right single attack they can run (body press means Ghold and Pult have free entry all day while using water stab is entry for Wellspring to run train on your team), unless they want to run protect leftovers sets which are really quickly overwhelmed. I've never been that high on this mon in general but it has never felt as underwhelming as it has now. I'm aware nomming as low as B seems silly and maybe exaggerating a little but it just feels like it struggles too much and even B+ has better picks.
B is definitely too harsh for Dozo. Heatranator already gave some good points on this. To elaborate, it's important to keep in mind that teammates help Dondozo a lot. If you're switching Dozo into every physical threat your opponent has, then sure, it will be chipped down fast. But that's not the right way to play it. It best partners with another bulky mon that can take hits in the early game, while Dozo handles the late game. It works best as a safeguard against physical sweepers like Zama, Moon, Dragonite, Gambit, Bulk Up Tusk, SD Gliscor, and others. We already know Dozo is stall staple so I want to focus on its potential on balance. If you partner Dozo with Tusk or physdef Gliscor, then these mons can take the hits that Dozo doesn't want to in the early game and make greedier plays to make progress since you know Dozo is your safety wall in the back.
Curse should not be run outside of stall. The best set as I mentioned before is Resttalk Body Press Avalanche. You can spam Sleep Talk without worrying about activating Waterpon's Water Absorb and the combined Ice + Fighting coverage hits everything you need to check. This isn't something that you're switching into a Knock user early game or bringing in indiscriminately to rack up hazards damage. Your teammates like Gliscor and Tusk are meant to take those hits so that Dozo can be saved for when it's needed. Rocky helmet handles U-turn issues; alternatively, you can run boots and pair with a contact punisher like Moltres.
To showcase Dozo's strengths and an approach to use it on balance, here are some relevant replays at 1700s+ I've compiled.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2166621471-yodqxfqbdi3hfj4untud8uzi6k6ydz5pw
Dondozo hardstops DD Kyurem from sweeping and then OHKOs Darkrai with Tera Fighting Body Press. I would credit Dozo with winning the game here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2166661525
Against an 1800s cheese HO, Dozo does exactly as its supposed to by walling Zamazenta and Cloyster to net a win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2166665138-vxiz0lf23lapev2ghtqwigx4u5n3bkmpw?p2
Win versus a Top 30 ladder player. This is a nice example of a game where Dozo doesn't need to come in much but its presence is absolutely felt during the match. Dozo being a hard stop to Zama denies my opponent their main win condition, which greatly changes the way the game plays out. It also puts a stop to an annoying Gliscor v Gliscor mirror matchup.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2166677510-x0lsabayy5wp86l6g3rcupb2je2uv85pw
Here, Dozo lures in Pult to deal a clean 35% chip with Avalance. This puts Pult in range to die to Glowking's Ice Beam two turns later. This is a cool interaction that's happened to me in several matches. Later in the match Dozo denies SD Gliscor from sweeping and pulls off a Tera Fighting to beat Meowscarada. This leads to my opponent's forfeit as they realize they can't break Dozo.
And these are just the replays that I collected today when I was inspired to write this. I hope this gives a perspective on how Dondozo can be much more than a chump wall, and greatly contribute to the game when paired with the right teammates.
Personally, I would keep Dondozo at A-, though I could also plausibly see it at B+ alongside the likes of Skarmory and Clodsire.
Dozo is fine in B+ or A-
it is clearly unique and great at what it does, but what it does is extreme — it hard walls and assures 1v1s against a slew of physical threats in return for permitting momentum and entry to things on the other side of the aisle
it’s as good as the stall and balanced archetypes it fits on permit it to be and no better, and I think that’s probably B+
it is clearly unique and great at what it does, but what it does is extreme — it hard walls and assures 1v1s against a slew of physical threats in return for permitting momentum and entry to things on the other side of the aisle
it’s as good as the stall and balanced archetypes it fits on permit it to be and no better, and I think that’s probably B+
B(est)+ is something I can get behind for Dozo.
Why is skeledirge only a b?
TLDR it's quite tera reliant. The base typing is good vs a few mons but it really wants to tera to deal with most boosting threats. It also struggles from many things it wants to check having knock off, which is still an issue after tera due to the prevalence of spikes. Setup sweepers are also now often more status resistant, SD Gliscor has knock and can't be burned, Gouging fire's bulky sets wear it down while offensive EQ sets force tera and still force dirge to burn slacks. It has some great matchups but it does not get the same consistent game to game value that it once did.
It does and unlike Alomomola doesn't need to run suboptimal sets to not being fucked by Waterpon. However, it still ends up being passive due to needing either Protect or Moonlight to use Wish effectively, which means it has just 1 free slot (since Moonblast is kinda a must too most of the time). At least Knock Off as last move is always viable.
Not a nomination, I just wanted to know if Rillaboom has actually been moved down to A- since the graphic doesn't seem to reflect that.
SV OU: DLC2 drops and rises
Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions and discussing these rises and falls here, I'm glad to see some discussion sparked and it's always interesting to see more takes and what people across the board think of the meta. As I've done before I'd like to give a quick recap of how I voted, the major changes I supported during this shift and any I disagreed with - my personal votes are denoted by [Original Rank] -> [My vote] (±Change), while the actual change is written in as this -> [Final rank] (+Change) or -> [Final rank] (-Change). I'll try to cover some of the shifts discussed at more length in this thread along with the more major ones in general!
A reshuffle of the S-rank
- Dragapult, S
-> S (=0), -> S- (-1)
- Great Tusk, S-
-> A+ (-1), -> A+ (-1)
- Galarian Slowking, S-
-> A+ (-1), -> A+ (-1)
- Zamazenta, S-
-> S (+1), -> S (+1)
3 drops and a rise? Pretty major reshuffle at the top, I voted for Dragapult to stay S as it's still an incredible Pokemon but it's definitely a whole lot less oppressive than it felt earlier in the DLC2 meta so a drop is pretty warranted; I did vote to drop Tusk and Slowking-G however. Great Tusk is still the best removal in the tier imo and it's still a fantastic Pokemon but I don't think it's ever felt this far from necessary, while Glowking feels pretty inadequate as a main special check right now and FuturePort (FutureChilly? Whatever you'd call it now) isn't the easiest thing to build around in this meta I feel. Zamazenta, on the other hand, has been dominant for a while and seems to only get better with pretty solid set variety and the ability to glue together pretty much any team.
Rising Stars
- Moltres, B+
-> A (+2), -> A (+2)
- Sinistcha, B-
-> A- (+3), -> A- (+3)
- Tinkaton, B-
-> B+ (+2), -> A- (+3)
Moltres rising this far shouldn't come as too much of a surprise, with a great defensive typing, a great moveset, and Flame Body as maybe its greatest trait of all. Sinistcha may be a little more surprising, but another case of unique, excellent typing and a fantastic moveset that includes the pretty broken Strength Sap lets this Pokemon shine in the tier; I asked for it to prove itself when it first entered the VR, and prove itself it certainly did both on ladder and in tournament play. Maybe the most interesting rise, and yet another example of both fantastic typing and utility, is Tinkaton! I've been on the receiving end of just not having a good answer into this Pokemon and conceding way too much ground as a result, and I think a rise was necessary - I thought I was being a bit too much of a believer with my B+ vote, but evidently the rest of the VR council agreed on Tinkaton being given a little more respect.
- Ninetales, UR
-> B- (+4), -> B (+5)
Ninetales? On par with Torkoal? More likely than you'd think. As ausma mentioned in the original update post, Encore and Healing Wish off a respectable 100 base Speed make Ninetales a really solid option for sun teams right now. No Rapid Spin or Stealth Rock makes role compression in other areas a little harder, but Torkoal is never the sole removal for sun anyway, and the value of healing up a sun-boosted threat with a free switch off the back of max sun turns is immeasurable - this, along with a generally worse position in the meta for sun, is also what leads to Torkoal dropping to the same level as the fox.
- Okidogi, UR
-> B- (+4), -> B- (+4)
Might Okidogi just be the flavour of the month? Maybe, but I do genuinely believe that it has a really solid niche with a great, near-unique typing (get ready to read about good typings even more often since it's a common theme for all three of these Pokemon), a strong matchup into our latest addition to S- and some noteworthy results to back it up. Dogi fits solidly into the B- rank; honestly I'd much sooner use this than something like Blaziken.
- Fezandipiti, UR
-> C+ (+3), -> C+ (+3)
Might Fezandipiti just be the next best flavour of the month? Honestly I don't really think so, it's been around for a short while but proves to be an annoying pivot that can threaten status, spam U-turn and keep itself healthy with Roost. Setup sets still feel very lacklustre, but its ability to endlessly pivot around on the admittedly not-too-uncommon Pokemon that can otherwise safely switch in on it make it enough of a usable pick to warrant a respectable C+.
- Pecharunt, C
-> C+ (+1), -> B- (+2)
This with entry hazards into non-Boots-spam feels like an actually broken Gholdengo when you're only packing Rapid Spin (and who uses Defog in 2024 SVOU?), it's seen some respectable success and a raise makes sense - I did only vote for a C+ as I'm not the biggest believer in this thing, I don't think it's the best fit for the meta, but I'm happy with where it's landed. If only Munkibunki locked in to give us the full quartet...
- Overqwil, UR
-> C (+2), -> C+ (+3)
- Slither Wing, UR
-> C (+2), -> C (+2)
Though not the only place I've seen them come up, I do distinctly remember some discussion of these Pokemon in this thread, and a rise to viability is definitely warranted for both. Overqwil fits a solid niche on rain teams with its distinct offensive STAB combination paired with rain-boosted Water-type attacks, though my opinion of rain isn't too high hence the personal C vote. Slither Wing, on the other hand, is a somewhat subpar but pretty versatile pick that can slot onto sun as a powerful wallbreaker while having the (even higher imo) potential of running defensive sets with reliable recovery, great utility, and still-respectable power and priority. I like both a lot and I'm glad to see them on the VR!
Fall-offs
- Rillaboom, A
-> B+ (-2), -> A- (-1)
- Hatterene, A-
-> A- (=0), -> B+ (-1)
To be honest you can see by my votes that I don't think this is 100% right, but, as you can see from my votes, I think Rillaboom is genuinely B+ right now as Grassy Terrain feels so so so much worse than it was once upon a time. Hawlucha is not a real Pokemon when we had Sneasler for so long (let me reminisce even if it definitely deserved its place in Ubers), every other more viable sweeper doesn't need GTerrain, and bulky offense / balance with a casual Rillaboom feels so weak whereas it used to be one of my favourite playstyles. On the other hand, I think Hatt's still good enough for A-, though it's definitely fell off a little. This may be some personal bias for both, but I really don't love Rilla rn while Hatt could have dropped or stayed for me. Also, thanks Evil T-tar for spotting that, the thread is now updated!
- Clefable, A-
-> B+ (-1), -> B+ (-1)
- Corviknight, A-
-> B+ (-1), -> B+ (-1)
- Dondozo, A-
-> B+ (-1), -> B+ (-1)
- Skeledirge, A-
-> B (-2), -> B (-2)
Unfortunately, I won't talk about these as length as it's kinda just a common issue for all four - in my opinion, the teams that these Pokemon fit on aren't particularly great right now. Don't get me wrong, they're still absolutely essential (or close to it) on certain teams, but the tier isn't too kind to them right now and so a general drop is warranted. Skeledirge gets some special mention as it drops even further to B, it still has its good matchups but it feels pretty out-of-place when it does still struggle to check everything it wants to and you feel the lack of Volcarona that used to give you a reason to call Skeledirge role compression.
Thank you for reading, I hope this provides some insight as to how I voted and why. Again, I've tried to keep a focus on the Pokemon that have either had a major shift or have been discussed post-shift in this thread, I'm always open to questions about anything else that you think moved too far, didn't move far enough, or moved in the wrong direction!
Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions and discussing these rises and falls here, I'm glad to see some discussion sparked and it's always interesting to see more takes and what people across the board think of the meta. As I've done before I'd like to give a quick recap of how I voted, the major changes I supported during this shift and any I disagreed with - my personal votes are denoted by [Original Rank] -> [My vote] (±Change), while the actual change is written in as this -> [Final rank] (+Change) or -> [Final rank] (-Change). I'll try to cover some of the shifts discussed at more length in this thread along with the more major ones in general!
A reshuffle of the S-rank
- Dragapult, S -> S (=0), -> S- (-1)
- Great Tusk, S- -> A+ (-1), -> A+ (-1)
- Galarian Slowking, S--> A+ (-1), -> A+ (-1)
- Zamazenta, S--> S (+1), -> S (+1)
3 drops and a rise? Pretty major reshuffle at the top, I voted for Dragapult to stay S as it's still an incredible Pokemon but it's definitely a whole lot less oppressive than it felt earlier in the DLC2 meta so a drop is pretty warranted; I did vote to drop Tusk and Slowking-G however. Great Tusk is still the best removal in the tier imo and it's still a fantastic Pokemon but I don't think it's ever felt this far from necessary, while Glowking feels pretty inadequate as a main special check right now and FuturePort (FutureChilly? Whatever you'd call it now) isn't the easiest thing to build around in this meta I feel. Zamazenta, on the other hand, has been dominant for a while and seems to only get better with pretty solid set variety and the ability to glue together pretty much any team.
Rising Stars
- Moltres, B+-> A (+2), -> A (+2)
- Sinistcha, B--> A- (+3), -> A- (+3)
- Tinkaton, B--> B+ (+2), -> A- (+3)
Moltres rising this far shouldn't come as too much of a surprise, with a great defensive typing, a great moveset, and Flame Body as maybe its greatest trait of all. Sinistcha may be a little more surprising, but another case of unique, excellent typing and a fantastic moveset that includes the pretty broken Strength Sap lets this Pokemon shine in the tier; I asked for it to prove itself when it first entered the VR, and prove itself it certainly did both on ladder and in tournament play. Maybe the most interesting rise, and yet another example of both fantastic typing and utility, is Tinkaton! I've been on the receiving end of just not having a good answer into this Pokemon and conceding way too much ground as a result, and I think a rise was necessary - I thought I was being a bit too much of a believer with my B+ vote, but evidently the rest of the VR council agreed on Tinkaton being given a little more respect.
- Ninetales, UR-> B- (+4), -> B (+5)
Ninetales? On par with Torkoal? More likely than you'd think. As ausma mentioned in the original update post, Encore and Healing Wish off a respectable 100 base Speed make Ninetales a really solid option for sun teams right now. No Rapid Spin or Stealth Rock makes role compression in other areas a little harder, but Torkoal is never the sole removal for sun anyway, and the value of healing up a sun-boosted threat with a free switch off the back of max sun turns is immeasurable - this, along with a generally worse position in the meta for sun, is also what leads to Torkoal dropping to the same level as the fox.
- Okidogi, UR-> B- (+4), -> B- (+4)
Might Okidogi just be the flavour of the month? Maybe, but I do genuinely believe that it has a really solid niche with a great, near-unique typing (get ready to read about good typings even more often since it's a common theme for all three of these Pokemon), a strong matchup into our latest addition to S- and some noteworthy results to back it up. Dogi fits solidly into the B- rank; honestly I'd much sooner use this than something like Blaziken.
- Fezandipiti, UR-> C+ (+3), -> C+ (+3)
Might Fezandipiti just be the next best flavour of the month? Honestly I don't really think so, it's been around for a short while but proves to be an annoying pivot that can threaten status, spam U-turn and keep itself healthy with Roost. Setup sets still feel very lacklustre, but its ability to endlessly pivot around on the admittedly not-too-uncommon Pokemon that can otherwise safely switch in on it make it enough of a usable pick to warrant a respectable C+.
- Pecharunt, C-> C+ (+1), -> B- (+2)
This with entry hazards into non-Boots-spam feels like an actually broken Gholdengo when you're only packing Rapid Spin (and who uses Defog in 2024 SVOU?), it's seen some respectable success and a raise makes sense - I did only vote for a C+ as I'm not the biggest believer in this thing, I don't think it's the best fit for the meta, but I'm happy with where it's landed. If only Munkibunki locked in to give us the full quartet...
- Overqwil, UR-> C (+2), -> C+ (+3)
- Slither Wing, UR-> C (+2), -> C (+2)
Though not the only place I've seen them come up, I do distinctly remember some discussion of these Pokemon in this thread, and a rise to viability is definitely warranted for both. Overqwil fits a solid niche on rain teams with its distinct offensive STAB combination paired with rain-boosted Water-type attacks, though my opinion of rain isn't too high hence the personal C vote. Slither Wing, on the other hand, is a somewhat subpar but pretty versatile pick that can slot onto sun as a powerful wallbreaker while having the (even higher imo) potential of running defensive sets with reliable recovery, great utility, and still-respectable power and priority. I like both a lot and I'm glad to see them on the VR!
Fall-offs
- Rillaboom, A-> B+ (-2), -> A- (-1)
- Hatterene, A--> A- (=0), -> B+ (-1)
To be honest you can see by my votes that I don't think this is 100% right, but, as you can see from my votes, I think Rillaboom is genuinely B+ right now as Grassy Terrain feels so so so much worse than it was once upon a time. Hawlucha is not a real Pokemon when we had Sneasler for so long (let me reminisce even if it definitely deserved its place in Ubers), every other more viable sweeper doesn't need GTerrain, and bulky offense / balance with a casual Rillaboom feels so weak whereas it used to be one of my favourite playstyles. On the other hand, I think Hatt's still good enough for A-, though it's definitely fell off a little. This may be some personal bias for both, but I really don't love Rilla rn while Hatt could have dropped or stayed for me. Also, thanks Evil T-tar for spotting that, the thread is now updated!
- Clefable, A--> B+ (-1), -> B+ (-1)
- Corviknight, A--> B+ (-1), -> B+ (-1)
- Dondozo, A--> B+ (-1), -> B+ (-1)
- Skeledirge, A--> B (-2), -> B (-2)
Unfortunately, I won't talk about these as length as it's kinda just a common issue for all four - in my opinion, the teams that these Pokemon fit on aren't particularly great right now. Don't get me wrong, they're still absolutely essential (or close to it) on certain teams, but the tier isn't too kind to them right now and so a general drop is warranted. Skeledirge gets some special mention as it drops even further to B, it still has its good matchups but it feels pretty out-of-place when it does still struggle to check everything it wants to and you feel the lack of Volcarona that used to give you a reason to call Skeledirge role compression.
Thank you for reading, I hope this provides some insight as to how I voted and why. Again, I've tried to keep a focus on the Pokemon that have either had a major shift or have been discussed post-shift in this thread, I'm always open to questions about anything else that you think moved too far, didn't move far enough, or moved in the wrong direction!
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It's not really weird. What limited usage it used to see earlier in the metagame thanks to some players making some sand teams work, has been fading more and more and by itself Ttar just isn't threatening or consistent. Many of the best pokemon blank both stabs (Zamazenta/Tusk being big ones but even Kingambit answers it well). Pokemon like Iron Valiant and and Ting-Lu are also huge headaches that it doesn't care for, and the continued wide presence of Landorus gives it very little room to be truly threatening. CB is not nearly good enough with how slow it is, and how hard it is to switch into battle because of said speed which is made worse by its proclivity for being chipped by hazards and small hits even when it does come in. It does nothing against fast paced offensive teams or HO, and even into BO/Balance, there are more than enough responses to diminish any threat (especially as Balance tends to have pokemon like Gliscor/Garg who just protect scout and pivot accordingly). There's no real reason to use Ttar as a breaker when there are more consistent pokemon who will at least guarantee good progress. (and of course there's no reason to bother with defensive Ttar which is bad, passive and super easy to take advantage of.
Ttar already dropped with the recent VR update and personally I think it should be even lower. What good traits it has is very on paper and it just struggles to make things happen and generally just kinda... blows.
Zamazenta does not really like switching into ttar, knock off really cripples it quite a bit by removing its lefties. Tusk doesn't like switching into ice punch for cb sets or ice beam for non cb sets, as its cleanly two hit ko'd. Kingambit is destroyed by low kick/e-quake, and CB knock off still does a sizeable chunk to it, around 30%.
Iron valiant doesn't like switching into stone edge, which is a 2hit ko, so even valiant needs to be careful. Ting lu also doesn't like switching into knock off, losing lefties is absolutely crippling to it. Also lando is a fake check to ttar, knock off does A LOT of damage to it while also removing its helmet (which for teammates is big) and if it ice beams/ice punches on the lando switch in, its ggs for it. And even stone edge 2hit kos, while earth power does max 44%.
These points are true, I will give you that, but its not as bad as it seems. Ttar's typing is alright, as resistances to ghost, dark, fire and poison are pretty great and immunity to psychic is amazing. With proper support to remove hazards, it can be an absolute tank of a mon. Ttar can also hit 200 speed, which is still an important benchmark so there is that.
Ttar can at the very least fire off one big attack against these HO or offense teams, which will do a lot to them and potentially trade. BO and balance are definitely going to not like ttar, knock off is going to cripple any switch ins they have (see a pattern here, maybe knock off is a really good move for ttar) and stuff like glowking are free entry for ttar to start smacking stuff around. The answers to ttar on these teams are either crippled by knock, or are scared of its coverage.
Both of these don't really want to switch into ttar though. Ice punch/ice beam destroys gliscor and stone edge is doing 62% min to physical defense gliscor (forget switching in special defense gliscor) while Garg does not appreciate losing lefties from ttar's knock and cannot switch into either e-quake or low kick, which will do massive damage to it. And these are probably the teams main physical defensive mons, not much else is going to like taking the hit.
Okay, first off, knock off is always going to make some sort of progress, so ttar is always going to be doing something in a battle. Secondly, not much else has the raw power as ttar does while having amazing coverage. Combine that with pretty great special bulk, and you have a mon that can easily differentiate itself from other breakers.
What? 134 base attack with stab knock off will never be passive. It also isn't really easy to take advantage of due to t-wave crippling every mon that tries to take advantage of it. Combine that with rocks and a coverage move, and it's alright. Not spectacular, but not bad.
Ttar is fine in the placing it is of B- rank, I do think if anything it should rise to B rank as it's better then people give it credit for. It has some flaws, typing which isn't amazing, slowish speed and weakness to hazard, but it also has some amazing traits that let it stand out.