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Zamazenta does not really like switching into ttar, knock off really cripples it quite a bit by removing its lefties. Tusk doesn't like switching into ice punch for cb sets or ice beam for non cb sets, as its cleanly two hit ko'd. Kingambit is destroyed by low kick/e-quake, and CB knock off still does a sizeable chunk to it, around 30%.
Iron valiant doesn't like switching into stone edge, which is a 2hit ko, so even valiant needs to be careful. Ting lu also doesn't like switching into knock off, losing lefties is absolutely crippling to it. Also lando is a fake check to ttar, knock off does A LOT of damage to it while also removing its helmet (which for teammates is big) and if it ice beams/ice punches on the lando switch in, its ggs for it. And even stone edge 2hit kos, while earth power does max 44%.
These points are true, I will give you that, but its not as bad as it seems. Ttar's typing is alright, as resistances to ghost, dark, fire and poison are pretty great and immunity to psychic is amazing. With proper support to remove hazards, it can be an absolute tank of a mon. Ttar can also hit 200 speed, which is still an important benchmark so there is that.
Ttar can at the very least fire off one big attack against these HO or offense teams, which will do a lot to them and potentially trade. BO and balance are definitely going to not like ttar, knock off is going to cripple any switch ins they have (see a pattern here, maybe knock off is a really good move for ttar) and stuff like glowking are free entry for ttar to start smacking stuff around. The answers to ttar on these teams are either crippled by knock, or are scared of its coverage.
Both of these don't really want to switch into ttar though. Ice punch/ice beam destroys gliscor and stone edge is doing 62% min to physical defense gliscor (forget switching in special defense gliscor) while Garg does not appreciate losing lefties from ttar's knock and cannot switch into either e-quake or low kick, which will do massive damage to it. And these are probably the teams main physical defensive mons, not much else is going to like taking the hit.
Okay, first off, knock off is always going to make some sort of progress, so ttar is always going to be doing something in a battle. Secondly, not much else has the raw power as ttar does while having amazing coverage. Combine that with pretty great special bulk, and you have a mon that can easily differentiate itself from other breakers.
What? 134 base attack with stab knock off will never be passive. It also isn't really easy to take advantage of due to t-wave crippling every mon that tries to take advantage of it. Combine that with rocks and a coverage move, and it's alright. Not spectacular, but not bad.
Ttar is fine in the placing it is of B- rank, I do think if anything it should rise to B rank as it's better then people give it credit for. It has some flaws, typing which isn't amazing, slowish speed and weakness to hazard, but it also has some amazing traits that let it stand out.
- in the long run, the targets you whiff against are usually the kinds that close games when given the free turn. zama valiant gambit, maybe tusk can get a 100% risk free spin which is an incredibly rare opportunity against any other team.
- you're also base 61 speed. if you leave that valiant at 40%, it's still got momentum and you dont.
- ice punch or ice beam read is fair tech, but do you really want to choice lock into them?
compare to other choiced breakers like specs valiant or specs/band pult, where (1) moonblast really is near risk-free and (2) high speed means you can get two hits off your resists into a kill at 40%
B- is fine for a mon that could potentially throw you a game on a bad read. i think you could make a case if sand gets better and people innovate with smooth rock sr ice beam twave sets, but as a breaker this aint it
Zamazenta does not really like switching into ttar, knock off really cripples it quite a bit by removing its lefties. Tusk doesn't like switching into ice punch for cb sets or ice beam for non cb sets, as its cleanly two hit ko'd. Kingambit is destroyed by low kick/e-quake, and CB knock off still does a sizeable chunk to it, around 30%.
Iron valiant doesn't like switching into stone edge, which is a 2hit ko, so even valiant needs to be careful. Ting lu also doesn't like switching into knock off, losing lefties is absolutely crippling to it. Also lando is a fake check to ttar, knock off does A LOT of damage to it while also removing its helmet (which for teammates is big) and if it ice beams/ice punches on the lando switch in, its ggs for it. And even stone edge 2hit kos, while earth power does max 44%.
These points are true, I will give you that, but its not as bad as it seems. Ttar's typing is alright, as resistances to ghost, dark, fire and poison are pretty great and immunity to psychic is amazing. With proper support to remove hazards, it can be an absolute tank of a mon. Ttar can also hit 200 speed, which is still an important benchmark so there is that.
Ttar can at the very least fire off one big attack against these HO or offense teams, which will do a lot to them and potentially trade. BO and balance are definitely going to not like ttar, knock off is going to cripple any switch ins they have (see a pattern here, maybe knock off is a really good move for ttar) and stuff like glowking are free entry for ttar to start smacking stuff around. The answers to ttar on these teams are either crippled by knock, or are scared of its coverage.
Both of these don't really want to switch into ttar though. Ice punch/ice beam destroys gliscor and stone edge is doing 62% min to physical defense gliscor (forget switching in special defense gliscor) while Garg does not appreciate losing lefties from ttar's knock and cannot switch into either e-quake or low kick, which will do massive damage to it. And these are probably the teams main physical defensive mons, not much else is going to like taking the hit.
Okay, first off, knock off is always going to make some sort of progress, so ttar is always going to be doing something in a battle. Secondly, not much else has the raw power as ttar does while having amazing coverage. Combine that with pretty great special bulk, and you have a mon that can easily differentiate itself from other breakers.
What? 134 base attack with stab knock off will never be passive. It also isn't really easy to take advantage of due to t-wave crippling every mon that tries to take advantage of it. Combine that with rocks and a coverage move, and it's alright. Not spectacular, but not bad.
Ttar is fine in the placing it is of B- rank, I do think if anything it should rise to B rank as it's better then people give it credit for. It has some flaws, typing which isn't amazing, slowish speed and weakness to hazard, but it also has some amazing traits that let it stand out.
You're counting on a lot of what-if and perfect scenarios to play out to even get any successful use out of Tyranitar (requiring heavy prediction, as many teams pack 2-3 checks naturally while giving it next to no room to switch directly in). Most of the mons you describe it being able to annoy or beat, require that prediction and also are mons that have high potential to end games or put immense pressure on the Ttar's side when they're in. They're mons you don't want to give free turns. Also please don't bring up Ice Beam. It's a meme and a bad one. It's not a serious, or good set. Please. As for Lando-T, phys defense sets tank knock/edge fine and the former forces more chip on Ttar while allowing Lando to do whatever it wants (rocks, pivot, etc) while faster sets found on offensive teams don't mind the damage because they only need to come in a few times and as far as answering Ttar, limiting it only once is fine since offensive teams already do this anyways. As far as the typing goes, it's not good. You bring up resists, but most teams pack those resists on better pokemon. Dark types are in no short supply and all the top ones stand far FAR above Ttar as options so there's no real reason to do so. As for hazards? It's difficult enough to get rid of them normally but the current meta especially makes it very hard, especially as Tusk is so easily punished for spinning. So relying on having them off whenever Ttar is in, is not realistic at all.
Also when is Ttar ever getting any chance against HO? These teams all outpace it considerably and threaten it ridiculously easily. How is it ever doing anything.
Regarding progress forcing, technically yeah? That's the power of knock off not Ttar and it's because of that fact that you can just run a better dark type that actually performs with knock off while being consistent. Ttar's offensive profile is not unique at all, and in fact is hindered by awful speed which flops into offense, and even many BO structures while its good resistances and bulk are undercut by how quickly it gets worn down by hazards and even small hits, and being outrun by so much of the tier limits it way too much. I really have to stress this part. Tyranitar's poor speed is absolutely KILLER for any kind of consistent niche. Why try to support something that struggles to consistently get in and do. You say Glowking but have fun watching it Chilly out as Ttar comes in and just brings in a threat to Ttar.
As for the defensive sets passivity, yeah they really are. Bulky waters like Mola get endless free turns into you, while grounds such as Tusk, Gliscor, Lando-T, Ting-Lu and fighting types like Zama, Valiant, etc all are given so many chances to break your team down. Knock Off isn't doing nearly enough to bother Lando-T/Lu since the former just pivots and the latter gets free turns to spike/ruination spam your team. I'm also not sure how you can reasonably argue it should go to B which it just dropped from when it sees very very little relevant high level play and even when it does get brought, tends to underperform. On paper doesn't translate to in practice, let alone viability.
It's a bit weird seeing Ttar that low. Below Ninetales and Wheezing? Especially after it got Knock Off. Nothing enjoys taking Knock Off not even resists coming off of Choice Band combined with extra damage after sand. I think it could move up a rank.
Tyranitar is the biggest (non-obvious) loser in the "Teambuilding to deal with Kingambit" contest, because every team needs to have a good response to Kingambit, and they all overlap seamlessly with responses to Tyranitar.
Powerful physical dark type move? If you can take a +2 Sucker Punch, you can take a banded Knock-Off, and then proceed to either set up or blow a hole in the incoming switch.
Physically bulky dark type? The same fighting moves that hit Kingambit 4x also hit Tyrannitar 4x, and Tyranitar loses his SpDef bonus from sand if he tries to terastalize to take a hit.
Slow and vulnerable to a faster Encore when trying to boost? Yup, even after a Dragon Dance, 61 speed just isn't cutting it anymore.
STAB Choice Band Knock Off coming from Adamant 134 Att is still a ferocious hit, don't get me wrong, but between Booster Energy users, the bulky fighting types, and Iron Valiant's 4x resist, teams have a way to soak it. If one nuclear move is all you're after, I'd rather run Proto Attack Gouging Fire or Specs Kyurem or the dozen other options that aren't leashed to an abysmal defensive typing and speed.
Were Kingambit to be banned, I would expect Tyranitar to shoot right back up the viability rankings.
This is probably a hot take, but I really think zama is one of the most overrated mons in gen 9. It's a really good pick, but not comparable to top tier picks like pult, gambit, oger, bolt, darkrai, dengo. People claim zama is a top 3 mon saying it has great MUs into offenses, checks gambit, krai + blanket checks most physical sweepers. Whilst I agree zama checks a lot of dangerous physical mons while also having offensive pressure itself, it has a fair amount of problems which imo don't make it a top tier.
First of all, I think zama's MU into offensive teams (specifically HO) is very overestimated, since HO teams can somewhat easily build around zama in mind. A popular team structure that HO runs is some sort of special offense, using mons like darkrai, bolt and specifically iron moth . Moth, who is almost mandatory on HO makes zama's life hell since it either forces chip on zama or forces it to switch, losing its +1 def. This makes it way easier for your physical sweeper in the back to win later, and a scenario like this is pretty common. The next form of counterplay which is also easy to fit on HO is tera ghost/fairy, both already great teras to spinblock/have a better defensive typing respectively. Tera fairy bolt for example is a standard set and already a high value tera which completely shuts down zama, or you can even setup on non-roar variants. HO can also run ghosts like pult or scarf enam which are both great checks to zama. Basically what I'm saying is that if your HO loses to zama it's a bad HO.
Less offensive teams also do not have trouble fitting zama checks, which are mons that you would run anyways to check the meta. Moltres has seen a rise in popularity (roar/scorching sands beats tera fire), EP lando beats zama, glowking which has like 92% use rate, fairies deal with crunch and if not gholdengo deals with steel move, okidogi beats it, pecharunt beats it, tera fairy garg, etc. Now, you can't just run 1 zama check on a team and get away with it since zama has incredible set variety, but it's still pretty easy to fit a few decent zama checks since they overlap with other mons you have to check anyways. One thing zama does have going for it is that you can overwhelm your checks since these aforementioned mons are tasked to check other mons like gambit, but in practice this is not that simple since zama still has massive 4mss so you might not have the right set to win.
Finally, zama can be really useless into fatter teams or even BO. These teams are less common nowadays but I don't think this mon can be ranked S if it thuds into bulky cores like glowking+gliscor+skarm etc. These teams also tend to carry spikes which is even worse for the washed dog that is zama. Shoutouts future sight on BOs which is just another thing zama has to deal with.
S- -> S
This mon has the set variety that zama has, if not more, + will always do something in every game regardless of MU (even garg can be broken through with tera dragon sets), has amazing defensive utility, is fast as fuck, spreads status, pivot, specs/band are good breakers. I personally put this mon as top 1 since gambit has more counterplay imo (encore, faster priority, sub).
gonna put some more noms here, can't be bothered to write detailed reasonings but if anyone agrees feel free to do so
rises
A -> A+
incredible set variety, tspike absorber, progress maker, checks like half the meta
B- -> B
gambit check, hwish support, lures dnite with tera ghost whereas venu is checked by dnite
B -> B+
very hard to switch into since most people are running shitmon zama to deal with darkrai and zama gets smoked by surfs overtime, https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rank-1-broken-ho-2045-elo.3745629/#post-10170284 this team is public so people know the tech but I think gren has a lot of potential. Also destroys moth which darkrai can't really do in 1 hit.
B -> higher
i have a very high opinion on this mon, great set variety, one of the best woger checks and can lure a defensive mon with tera for partner to sweep, tera ghost is also a great set
UR -> ranked
has toxic and wish + synchronize to punish wisp pult. has potential but not sure how good this is, still experimenting w it
drops
A- -> B or B+
outclassed by scarf meow since it hogs tera, huge 4mss, bad speed tier even after tera since outsped by booster guys
B+ -> C+
this isnt ORAS
B -> C
this mon fucking sucks, tera hog, passive as balls, knock weak, fake spinblocker, 4mss. Just use moltres, tran, cinderace, pult over this garbage.
-> C+
this pains me to say this because drill is one of my fave mons and sand is fun asf, but sand blows. Drill is so weak and frail, checked by most priority and doesn't even check bolt well because specs is a thing. Sand is only great into opposing weather but any other MU and it feels like you're throwing.
S -> A+
This is probably a hot take, but I really think zama is one of the most overrated mons in gen 9. It's a really good pick, but not comparable to top tier picks like pult, gambit, oger, bolt, darkrai, dengo. People claim zama is a top 3 mon saying it has great MUs into offenses, checks gambit, krai + blanket checks most physical sweepers. Whilst I agree zama checks a lot of dangerous physical mons while also having offensive pressure itself, it has a fair amount of problems which imo don't make it a top tier.
Every mon has weaknesses and bad matchups in addition to strengths. For all those mons you mentioned “pult, gambit, oger, bolt, darkrai, dengo” you can easily pick out a similar or longer list of weaknesses than Zama.
In the case of Zama, the strengths are extreme. It compresses speed control, a defensive check to many mons like Darkrai/Gambit/Waterpon, and a deadly win condition.
A popular team structure that HO runs is some sort of special offense, using mons like darkrai, bolt and specifically iron moth . Moth, who is almost mandatory on HO makes zama's life hell since it either forces chip on zama or forces it to switch, losing its +1 def. This makes it way easier for your physical sweeper in the back to win later, and a scenario like this is pretty common.
You also just forced your opponent to use up their Iron Moth booster at an inopportune time. Fair trade for losing your +1 def. Most competent players will also not leave Zama in on Iron Moth if they also want it to check a physical sweeper in the back.
The next form of counterplay which is also easy to fit on HO is tera ghost/fairy, both already great teras to spinblock/have a better defensive typing respectively. Tera fairy bolt for example is a standard set and already a high value tera which completely shuts down zama, or you can even setup on non-roar variants. HO can also run ghosts like pult or scarf enam which are both great checks to zama. Basically what I'm saying is that if your HO loses to zama it's a bad HO.
Forcing a Tera is very useful. Tera Ghost opens up mons to be taken down by Gambit/Darkrai. Tera Fairy Bolt now has a poor matchup into Glowking. If anything, the rise of Tera Ghost is a testament to how influential Zama is in the meta.
Roar really helps in the bulky/stall matchup. Once you stack hazards and spread a few Knocks, you can just start phasing and watch your opponent rack up massive chip damage. It helps that common switchins to Zama like Moltres and Dondozo are also the ones that are most likely to take a Knock.
Less offensive teams also do not have trouble fitting zama checks, which are mons that you would run anyways to check the meta. Moltres has seen a rise in popularity (roar/scorching sands beats tera fire), EP lando beats zama, glowking which has like 92% use rate, fairies deal with crunch and if not gholdengo deals with steel move, okidogi beats it, pecharunt beats it, tera fairy garg, etc. Now, you can't just run 1 zama check on a team and get away with it since zama has incredible set variety, but it's still pretty easy to fit a few decent zama checks since they overlap with other mons you have to check anyways. One thing zama does have going for it is that you can overwhelm your checks since these aforementioned mons are tasked to check other mons like gambit, but in practice this is not that simple since zama still has massive 4mss so you might not have the right set to win.
I’ll be honest if Zama was able to pull a sweep every game it would be broken. Zama is a very souped up mon and the abundance of checks is necessary to keep it from running away with the game on an oppressive level. It can find its way around any one particular check with Tera/coverage so teams always run multiples. In this sense it reminds me of Gambit. It’s a meta defining mon that greatly shapes the way teams are built. What propels it into S rank is its ability to simultaneously cover multiple roles in defensive check, speed control, and powerful (but thankfully fair) wincon.
This is probably a hot take, but I really think zama is one of the most overrated mons in gen 9. It's a really good pick, but not comparable to top tier picks like pult, gambit, oger, bolt, darkrai, dengo. People claim zama is a top 3 mon saying it has great MUs into offenses, checks gambit, krai + blanket checks most physical sweepers. Whilst I agree zama checks a lot of dangerous physical mons while also having offensive pressure itself, it has a fair amount of problems which imo don't make it a top tier.
First of all, I think zama's MU into offensive teams (specifically HO) is very overestimated, since HO teams can somewhat easily build around zama in mind. A popular team structure that HO runs is some sort of special offense, using mons like darkrai, bolt and specifically iron moth . Moth, who is almost mandatory on HO makes zama's life hell since it either forces chip on zama or forces it to switch, losing its +1 def. This makes it way easier for your physical sweeper in the back to win later, and a scenario like this is pretty common. The next form of counterplay which is also easy to fit on HO is tera ghost/fairy, both already great teras to spinblock/have a better defensive typing respectively. Tera fairy bolt for example is a standard set and already a high value tera which completely shuts down zama, or you can even setup on non-roar variants. HO can also run ghosts like pult or scarf enam which are both great checks to zama. Basically what I'm saying is that if your HO loses to zama it's a bad HO.
Less offensive teams also do not have trouble fitting zama checks, which are mons that you would run anyways to check the meta. Moltres has seen a rise in popularity (roar/scorching sands beats tera fire), EP lando beats zama, glowking which has like 92% use rate, fairies deal with crunch and if not gholdengo deals with steel move, okidogi beats it, pecharunt beats it, tera fairy garg, etc. Now, you can't just run 1 zama check on a team and get away with it since zama has incredible set variety, but it's still pretty easy to fit a few decent zama checks since they overlap with other mons you have to check anyways. One thing zama does have going for it is that you can overwhelm your checks since these aforementioned mons are tasked to check other mons like gambit, but in practice this is not that simple since zama still has massive 4mss so you might not have the right set to win.
Finally, zama can be really useless into fatter teams or even BO. These teams are less common nowadays but I don't think this mon can be ranked S if it thuds into bulky cores like glowking+gliscor+skarm etc. These teams also tend to carry spikes which is even worse for the washed dog that is zama. Shoutouts future sight on BOs which is just another thing zama has to deal with.
S- -> S
This mon has the set variety that zama has, if not more, + will always do something in every game regardless of MU (even garg can be broken through with tera dragon sets), has amazing defensive utility, is fast as fuck, spreads status, pivot, specs/band are good breakers. I personally put this mon as top 1 since gambit has more counterplay imo (encore, faster priority, sub).
gonna put some more noms here, can't be bothered to write detailed reasonings but if anyone agrees feel free to do so
rises
A -> A+
incredible set variety, tspike absorber, progress maker, checks like half the meta
B- -> B
gambit check, hwish support, lures dnite with tera ghost whereas venu is checked by dnite
B -> B+
very hard to switch into since most people are running shitmon zama to deal with darkrai and zama gets smoked by surfs overtime, https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rank-1-broken-ho-2045-elo.3745629/#post-10170284 this team is public so people know the tech but I think gren has a lot of potential. Also destroys moth which darkrai can't really do in 1 hit.
B -> higher
i have a very high opinion on this mon, great set variety, one of the best woger checks and can lure a defensive mon with tera for partner to sweep, tera ghost is also a great set
UR -> ranked
has toxic and wish + synchronize to punish wisp pult. has potential but not sure how good this is, still experimenting w it
drops
A- -> B or B+
outclassed by scarf meow since it hogs tera, huge 4mss, bad speed tier even after tera since outsped by booster guys
B+ -> C+
this isnt ORAS
B -> C
this mon fucking sucks, tera hog, passive as balls, knock weak, fake spinblocker, 4mss. Just use moltres, tran, cinderace, pult over this garbage.
-> C+
this pains me to say this because drill is one of my fave mons and sand is fun asf, but sand blows. Drill is so weak and frail, checked by most priority and doesn't even check bolt well because specs is a thing. Sand is only great into opposing weather but any other MU and it feels like you're throwing.
You could argue for a Moth rise. Its really good on and vs offensive teams. Moth is lowkey annoying to account for in the builder cause of how versatile its Tera usage is. Ground blanks Gking, Tran, and Garg, Ghost 1v1s Dnite, I’ve even experimented with Tera Dark which blanks Future Sight, resists Sucker, and still smacks Gking while hitting Pult. Its reliable for speed control and forcing Teras which offensive teams can capitalize on.
I could see this ranked in D tier, it does more than Shitpowdon and Milotrash. Can check Pult, Mixed Kyu, Wisp Rai, Dragonite, etc. Toxic is nice for punishing Fairies and Zama switching in. Its passive as shit even with Fplay and Toxic, but Umbreon is at least usable.
Skeledirge can def drop further, though 3 sub-ranks down is rough. I disagree that its passive because Torch Song can snowball and Wisp + Hex can dent switch-ins, but yeah, its outclassed by defensive Ghold, Molt, and Pult. Dirge really doesn’t like how popular Darkrai and Tera Fire mons are. B- rank mon.
Sand hasn’t achieved anything lately besides Pinka reaching high ladder with it. Sand builds are really stuck into specific structures due to Drill/Ttar creating overlap with weaknesses to Lando, Gliscor, Tusk, Mola, Wogre, and Zama. Ttar is a Ghost resist that doesn’t check Ghost types. Even Excadrill’s claim to fame, its matchup vs HO, is hindered by the fact Zama is one of the top Pokemon in the metagame and roadblocks like Lando, Tusk, and Balloon Gambit make their way on these teams. Also while we’re at it, unrank .
but there are some things I disagree with.
Zamazenta is the perfect glue mon. While it doesn’t sweep every game (because it’s not broken) it always provides value as speed control and a roadblock to Darkrai and a legion of strong physical attackers. Almost any team can slap it on. The fact there is so many teams prep hard for it and Ghold was no. 1 in usage in WCOP is telling of this thing’s impact. Its matchup vs the Boosters isn’t terrible because it can Roar them out. Zama can opt to run Substitute with Tera Steel/Fire which can be annoying for typical checks like Sinistcha, Gliscor, and Gking. There’s also the very threat of a Zama sweep that let the player force certain plays with teammates like Gambit, Darkrai, Kyurem, and Roaring Moon. These mons either exploit Zama’s checks or chip them down.
I think these three are fine where they are. These three definitely have merit in this metagame, but nothing changed substantially to boost them higher in the VR imo. Greninja is the only one I’m on the fence with because of how well it can clean Lando/Cinder/Zama teams, 1v1s Cinder without having to fish for flinch like Darkrai, and can OHKO AV Primarina with Gunk after rocks. Forcing Gking to Tera can also open up its teammates.
Hard disagree. Meow isn’t used as much because of how good Grasspon is. As good as STAB Knock and Axel are, Encore is just way too good to pass off, because of how it makes dealing with certain matchups that much simpler, and Terastilizing Grasspon is high value because you get a Booster mon that can hold an item and keep the speed increase for the rest of the game. Nothing in the tier likes switching into a boosted Cudgel or a Knock, especially with the tier favoring offense and Skarm/Corv being mid as hell.
You could argue for a drop, but C+ is harsh and unlike Skeledirge, Volcanion isn’t mid. Volcanion has really nice resistances to Fairy, Fire, and a Water immunity. It sees use on offensive teams as a switch-in to Cinder, Molt, Prima. and Mola as many offensive teams hate fighting these, especially Molt, and Volcanion uses these opportunities to click Scald but on steroids. Volcanion’s impressive resistances and bulk let it trade 1-2 mons per game before going down. The decline of slower spike stacking builds and Stall actually lets Volcanion run sets that either boost its already great offensives like Choice Specs or amplify its defensive utility like Wisp, Roar, and Assault Vest. Its rocks weakness can be overcome with the reliable offensive hazard control options that can keep rocks off like Tusk, Glimm, Treads, Cinder, and Hatt.
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 44 HP / 252 SpA / 212 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
Volcanion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Tera Blast
I think Volcanion should be experimented more, with how vulnerable most Water resists are to Steam Eruption burns or are frail. It also had a solid 60% winrate off 15 times it was used in WCOP.
On the Meowscarada vs Grasspon debate, after using the later in Wcop and facing it too, I am on the side of Meowscarada. Its less Tera reliant than Grasspon, and favours mindlessly clicking more too (except vs Zapdos and Moltres), Grasspon can achieve more sweeps when well played, but requires way more skill to use and more team support too, and that alone is enough of a reason for cat superiority in my opinion. The actual competitor of Meowscarada (that makes it worse that it could have been) is actually Weavile, while Grasspon has to compete vs the broken Waterpon (also Rockpon).
I do think both Grasspon and Meowscarada have a rough time at the moment, but I see more appeals to use the waifu cat than the ogre.
Disagree on zama drop, but I think a lot of people agree with me on that, so I won't explain further
what I'm going to explain further is regarding both moth and ogerpon
from A to A-
Not only that, but I believe it should be hard stuck there forever, my main reasoning is that moth is peak gambling mindset, we all like to joke and laugh about how "99% OF IRON MOTH USERS QUIT BEFORE GETTING A FIERY DANCE BOOST, NEVER STOP GAMBLING" and despite having multiple teras, you have one on the battle, and you can't 1v1 every single mon out there, unless you have ghost dnite will always check you, and even if you have ghost then now kingambit gets you, ground makes you rilla food, fairy gets you smacked by poisons or steels, dark seems cool but zama can take a hit
+1 132 SpA Tera Dark Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 201-237 (51.8 - 61%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Tera Dark Iron Moth: 398-470 (132.2 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and heres the thing, none of this even matters if you don't get the +1 boost from fiery dance, it is 50%, but it sure doesn't feel like it most of the time. Don't get me wrong, when moth gets +2 + booster, IT'S BROKEN and easily laughs at the entire tier barring stall, but it's too dependent on it. It's too luck reliant for its own good, which is why I would never put this anywhere but A-
and for my next topic, I disagree on the drop
scarf meow sucks tf. Meowscarada sucks in general, even in a meta where mola rules supreme, and we need the greatest and strongest hits to put it down there's way better grasses out there, ogerpon is one of them, sure it's a tera hog, but so its rilla, gambit, dnite, and garganacl, and no one complains about them because It's worth to use tera on it. What ogerpon brings to the table is both good speed, encore and stab crit boosted ivy cudgel, and unlike meow, ogerpon doesn't rely on her item to actually function, you can just put boots and run wild. Sure, meow can bypass gliscor and ogerpon can't, so is every grass out there, and if the gliscor user outplays and nails a toxic at you, it's over
meow has a history of being over reliant on her item and being hard walled or curb stomped
ogerpon doesn't have to min max the matchup to still be somewhat decent vs those
Tealpon isn't even close to outclassed by Meow what? There's good reason while it is the one seeing high level play while Meow has been fading more and more (and even when it does show up, in underperforms). It's a nice swiss army utility pokemon with the side benefit of functioning well as a late game mon in some scenarios. It doesn't really have 4MSS, I wish people would learn what this means instead of just throwing it out all the time when trying to criticize a mon. And also, calling its 525 speed "bad" after tera is weird when the only pokemon that still outrun it are Roaring Moon (who it matches badly into anyways) and Iron Valiant (which frequently comes into battle more than once and burns its booster, meaning it CAN be outpaced by tera Tealpon).
Not even sure what the Volcanion comment even is. Yeah this isn't ORAS. So? It's defensive profile is still quite practical and valuable for offense while keeping the pace for its team since it's so threatening in return once it switches in. it's pretty good at forcing progress, getting at least one kill and sometimes two if played well, or just leaving damage strewn about on the opponent's team.
Volcanion is a really good mon in this meta. It can check a lot of threats and has amazing damage output. It's a wellspring check, Mola answer (fire spin is brutal to it), great against some stall teams, rain check and not a lot of mons like switching into it. B+ rank is fine for it.
I feel like nobody mentioned the main strength of grasspon over meowscarada which is the ability to actually switch into waterpon safely, if only once. As we all know, checking waterpon is pretty hard! So when I'm trying to build some alo balance and I need my waterpon check/counter if wish is up, and I'm looking for a fast knock off guy, I'm picking grasspon over meow every time. That's why I voted meow to B+ and grasspon to A- in the VR. The added defensive utility is very significant to me, and I count triple axel on meow to be even with encore access on grasspon.
Moth is A to me. Fast and tspike absorb but it's very underwhelming without fiery dance boosts, and that makes it inconsistent factoring in the one time booster energy. I feel like moth has a single chance to be good and then it's just tspike absorb/sack fodder. But it's obviously very good when it does pop off.
Volcanion is a mon I'm never terribly impressed by. Weak matchup into all the broken dragons like bolt/kyurem/pult and low speed/hazards weakness hold it back a lot for me, to the point I'd probably never use it unless I was calling out some alo fat team.
A lot of ppl disagree w my zama nom, fair enough. But I still stand strong on all my noms (especially zama). Stuff like “Ghold has no1 usage in wcop” and “zama is insane glue” are both indicative that za dog is at least high tier, and though it has crazy strengths and consolidates a lot in teambuilding I believe its weaknesses are so severe and can be exploitable enough to which it doesn’t deserve S.
Mons like woger and bolt also have weaknesses, but they are way less exploitable imo. Woger is weak to hazards and outsped but in return solos fat, claims 1 whenever it comes out and has a high value tera + has defensive utility in encore. Bolt also claims 1 whenever it comes out has prio and is fat.
Zama has absurd stats, and phazing utility but I think these strengths are very overstated. I think in gen 9 OU, utility (encore, priority etc) is more valuable than defensive stats, and the only utility zama offers is roar. It doesn’t even stonewall phys mons as well as people say since you lose your +1 after you switch. Zama is easy to fit on teams but there are genuine great team structures that don’t even need him, and as a sidenote I think a lot of bad teambuilding this gen relies on either zama or tusk too much.
I feel like nobody mentioned the main strength of grasspon over meowscarada which is the ability to actually switch into waterpon safely, if only once. As we all know, checking waterpon is pretty hard! So when I'm trying to build some alo balance and I need my waterpon check/counter if wish is up, and I'm looking for a fast knock off guy, I'm picking grasspon over meow every time. That's why I voted meow to B+ and grasspon to A- in the VR. The added defensive utility is very significant to me, and I count triple axel on meow to be even with encore access on grasspon.
Also, completely agree w this but in practice imo the teams that scarf meow fit on are simply better. Softchecking woger is amazing but what makes me favour meow more is it outspeeds more stuff (ESPECIALLY moon) and isnt reliant on tera at all, meaning you don’t have to build around it. + Meow can switch into woger once, not as good as grasspon can (w wish) but it’s still something.
Grasspon is better into fat, meow better into offense. Hence I think meow is better since offense is more common.
Based mon and appropriately placed in B+. Tera Ghost Fire Spin Taunt is a heat set. Always claims multiple kills vs stall. SpAtk invested Steam Eruption is super spammable and many bulky teams just fold to it. On the defensive side, it compresses a Water immunity and Wisp immunity and has surprisingly solid bulk to trade with a lot of mons.
i disagree w this post because imo you’re missing the point on why i think moth is A+. It’s luck reliant except that you don’t put moth on your HO expecting it to win games for you. You put it to patch very very important holes that HO can’t fit otherwise. Val, zama and to a lesser extent gambit checked in 1 slot is incredible for HO, but even more important is being a grounded poison. The other options are glimm (goated mon but cant fit on certain structures), okidogi, pecharunt, or like TR glowking i guess. Moth can run into MUs where it does literally mothing (fat teams) but fat teams are easier to play around in the builder (just slap ogerpon on your team lol) than the crazy offensive threats that moth answer.
? Yes it does lol. Ivy knock encore uturn is a good progressmaker until you realise it’s walled by moth and tran and even ace. You want low kick, stomping tantrum, play rough, SD or taunt and dropping the 4 standard moves is really hard to justify.
It's defensive profile is still quite practical and valuable for offense while keeping the pace for its team since it's so threatening in return once it switches in.
I should also mention I have a very high opinion on bolt which volcanion really hates running into, also other dragons and even wogerpon make this mon hard to make substantial progress. It can force trades but also I think this mon is so outclassed. Cinderace is way easier to slap on offensive teams as a fire since it has more role compression, heatran has rocks and can run balloon, wogerpon is the better water immunity. Even into fat, which volcanion is supposed to beat it can run out of steam eruption PP.
? Yes it does lol. Ivy knock encore uturn is a good progressmaker until you realise it’s walled by moth and tran and even ace. You want low kick, stomping tantrum, play rough, SD or taunt and dropping the 4 standard moves is really hard to justify.
That isn't really too much of an issue tbh. All of those mons you just U-turn on and let a teammate fight. Ogerpon teal isn't trying to rip through every team, it's trying to be an annoying disruptive mon that can in a pinch clean up weakened teams. And in that role it's got all the moves it needs. It would like those moves, but not having them doesn't stop it from doing it's job spectacularly.
I should also mention I have a very high opinion on bolt which volcanion really hates running into, also other dragons and even wogerpon make this mon hard to make substantial progress. It can force trades but also I think this mon is so outclassed. Cinderace is way easier to slap on offensive teams as a fire since it has more role compression, heatran has rocks and can run balloon, wogerpon is the better water immunity. Even into fat, which volcanion is supposed to beat it can run out of steam eruption PP.
Okay, this part is just not right. Volcanion can easily use earth power and even tera ground to make sure bolt doesn't want to switch in. And most dragons don't like switching into steam eruption. Waterpon is also not switching in, yes, waterpon has water absorb, but flamethrower and sludge bomb are going to heavily damage it. And waterpon isn't doing the most back to volcanion. Once again, you are comparing mons that do completely different roles. None of those mons do what volcanion does, which is being better into fat teams and stopping water types.
That isn't really too much of an issue tbh. All of those mons you just U-turn on and let a teammate fight. Ogerpon teal isn't trying to rip through every team, it's trying to be an annoying disruptive mon that can in a pinch clean up weakened teams. And in that role it's got all the moves it needs. It would like those moves, but not having them doesn't stop it from doing it's job spectacularly.
sure, my issue is that oger grass isn’t too good into faster paced teams, even with encore since these teams naturally run mons that render it useless eg dnite moth bolt
None of those mons do what volcanion does, which is being better into fat teams and stopping water types.
Mons like woger and bolt also have weaknesses, but they are way less exploitable imo. Woger is weak to hazards and outsped but in return solos fat, claims 1 whenever it comes out and has a high value tera + has defensive utility in encore. Bolt also claims 1 whenever it comes out has prio and is fat.
Zama has absurd stats, and phazing utility but I think these strengths are very overstated. I think in gen 9 OU, utility (encore, priority etc) is more valuable than defensive stats, and the only utility zama offers is roar. It doesn’t even stonewall phys mons as well as people say since you lose your +1 after you switch. Zama is easy to fit on teams but there are genuine great team structures that don’t even need him, and as a sidenote I think a lot of bad teambuilding this gen relies on either zama or tusk too much.
Oger doesn't auto claim kills in the current meta, especially given its offensive inclination. And as someone who does think the tier would be better off without Wellspring, it doesn't solo fat by itself since these teams prep so much for it. It also doesn't always run Encore (and often slots Play Rough/Knock Off). It's also still not that bulky (not the most frail offensive mon, but not meant to take repeated hits). Bolt frequently is drawn in to check things early which either burns its booster (and teams are prepped to respond to a bolt typically so they'll be able to pivot around it) while non booster bolt is threatening, it's much easier to pivot afterwards and is pretty quick to wear down in these instances.
Zama's claim isn't just great stats, it's role compression is nearly unmatched. It doesn't just offer roar (roar isn't even meant as utility for a team itself necessarily, but rather to allow Zama to beat other boosting threats). Zama blanket checks a huge amount of pokemon in one slot while acting as a potential wincon which eases building significantly. Neither Wellspring nor Bolt do this and have flaws that hinder them from being as reliable. It doesn't need the +1 boost to answer physical threats, because Iron Defense still allows them to check them anyways. The claim that "a lot of bad teambuilding relies on tusk/zama too much" is a wild one considering that they are incredibly important team building elements that enable structures which wouldn't be as possible/consistent otherwise. Tusk is a little lower though still top tier recently, and that's purely because it gets overwhelmed by popular structures and struggles to spin off hazards. It's still a great wincon itself.
? Yes it does lol. Ivy knock encore uturn is a good progressmaker until you realise it’s walled by moth and tran and even ace. You want low kick, stomping tantrum, play rough, SD or taunt and dropping the 4 standard moves is really hard to justify.
Teal doesn't "want" low kick, stomping play rough or anything of what you listed because they're just other options. Not neccesities. Standard Ivy/Knock/U-Turn/Encore is a great progress forcer and disrupter. It's not meant to smash through everything. Drawing Moth in and forcing it to burn booster is great for Teal's own team, since Teal can just uturn on it while Heatran gets knocked off (and Heatran isn't even very relevant or good right now) while Cinderace gets knocked/uturned on. Like I said there's a reason Teal's been seeing some really nice results as of late.
Also Meow really isn't even good into offense. Scarf is really pretty weak, and very exploitable no matter what move it locks into. Have fun revenge killing Moon just to give free set up for another monster on its team to clean yours up or break a huge hole. As for Volcanion vs Cinderace, Volc is much stronger and bulkier which means it can check more while Cinderace has to be more careful coming in due to frailty. And there are offense match ups Volc can handle that Ace can't (great example being Iron Moth which Volc beats freely while Ace can't touch).
ok so that this post is not unserious, i’m surprised more people aren’t mentioning Encore on Grasspon. That’s one of the biggest draws IMO. You team needs Encore? Go Grasspon. If you don’t need it I would lean Meow.
While Encore is a really good tool on Ogerpon's arsenal (I think, and I may be exaggerating but this is my point of view doing teams) that unless you're running stall you need an Encore mon (while maybe slapping a Barb Clef or Trick Glowking is not even that bad), so that makes Ogerpon most of the time more useful in my opinion.
You can slap Trick on Meow but you already need Knock + Ice + U Turn (without ice coverage you're just running worse Ogerpon objectively) so if you use Trick you're not using Grass stab... Which is quite flawed in my opinion, mostly because Flower Trick is a really good move for stuff like boosted Garg / Tusk in a vacuum or even the not really common veil/screens teams.
Meow is better aganist offense but it's not like Ogerpon is useless aganist it + Ogerpon has a good value tera, so it's usually worth use it for outspeed or fast Encore. Ogerpon can slap boots so it's not affected by offense's Spikes from Samurott-H and T-Spikes / Rocks from Glimmora, so that's another positive point.
As for Zama, Ausma said in the OU discussion thread that the dog is the best mon in the tier and I think she could be right. Zama is really good aganist a huge portion on the tier and by itself it either forces tera, wins games after a couple of checks get worned out and can the ID Press set is so centralizing that it allows AoA set to run wild most of the time. Gambit, Tusk, RMoon, Kyurem, Darkrai, Waterpon, non-tera Garg, even Ghold aganist AoA... A huge part of the top tiers in the tier either can't switch in or get revenge killed by Zama so it forces tera/switch out. It's extremely good and I wouldn't be surprised if it surpasses Tusk as the #2 most used mon in the near future.
Tusk however is not bad at all and it's underated as a Sun team breaker and is still the best spinner in the tier, a really solid wincon and a really good defensive pivot. AV can also be good and I think it could be even better alongside wish support.
Also, whatever the next ban might be (Waterpon, Kyurem, Darkrai) it will benefit Tusk. In fact this 3 mons are in part good because they in fact smash Tusk.
Gliscor is better tho
While Encore is a really good tool on Ogerpon's arsenal (I think, and I may be exaggerating but this is my point of view doing teams) that unless you're running stall you need an Encore mon
sure, my issue is that oger grass isn’t too good into faster paced teams, even with encore since these teams naturally run mons that render it useless eg dnite moth bolt
Like this just isn't true; Grasspon is fantastic into faster teams bc it can tera to outspeed Darkrai, Zama and Waterpon (!!) and can just click U-turn on its bad matchups. This is forgetting that Moth like... isn't a wall at all? It can just get U-turned on and forced out so it loses its booster. Dnite and Bolt aren't even awful MUs because it can encore them into setup or thunderclap. Its offense mu is actually very strong and one of the main reasons to use it.
Like this just isn't true; Grasspon is fantastic into faster teams bc it can tera to outspeed Darkrai, Zama and Waterpon (!!) and can just click U-turn on its bad matchups. This is forgetting that Moth like... isn't a wall at all? It can just get U-turned on and forced out so it loses its booster. Dnite and Bolt aren't even awful MUs because it can encore them into setup or thunderclap. Its offense mu is actually very strong and one of the main reasons to use it.
its so easy to just say “bro grasspon has no checks just u turn out to a teammate” except meow doesnt run into this problem as much since it has better coverage and speed (can hit rm instead of being scared by it or kill a weakened val/moth) and also has trick. Whilst trick isnt as good as encore most of the time, it still functions very similarly and can even be better eg tricking corv.
Grasspon isnt amazing into faster teams in practice because saving defensive tera can be crucial to not lose to their tera sweeper.
S -> A+
. Moth, who is almost mandatory on HO makes zama's life hell since it either forces chip on zama or forces it to switch, losing its +1 def. This makes it way easier for your physical sweeper in the back to win later, and a scenario like this is pretty common. The next form of counterplay which is also easy to fit on HO is tera ghost/fairy, both already great teras to spinblock/have a better defensive typing respectively. Tera fairy bolt for example is a standard set and already a high value tera which completely shuts down zama, or you can even setup on non-roar variants. HO can also run ghosts like pult or scarf enam which are both great checks to zama. Basically what I'm saying is that if your HO loses to zama it's a bad HO.
S- -> S
B- -> B
B -> B+
B -> higher
UR -> ranked
A- -> B or B+
B+ -> C+
B -> C
-> C+
.
B- to C+
