Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread

I don't get how Primarina is better tiered than every other starter including Meowscarada and Samurott.
I tried it, and it gets chipped down by hazards like no other, gets demolished by poison types (Glowking and Clodsire especially), has no recovery, slow...
It can't even function well as a tank cause Kyurem and most special attackers hit it SE.
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
I don't get how Primarina is better tiered than every other starter including Meowscarada and Samurott.
I tried it, and it gets chipped down by hazards like no other, gets demolished by poison types (Glowking and Clodsire especially), has no recovery, slow...
It can't even function well as a tank cause Kyurem and most special attackers hit it SE.
It's good in HO since you are slow you can max into HP and SpA and go bananas with CM + Custap Berry attacks, and outside glowking and water absorb clodsire nothing really wants to get into her unless you have a clean shot at a KO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-743047

here is a high level game between 2 good players where you can see how primarina basically shits on the entire team, and there are other examples as well
 
It's good in HO since you are slow you can max into HP and SpA and go bananas with CM + Custap Berry attacks, and outside glowking and water absorb clodsire nothing really wants to get into her unless you have a clean shot at a KO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-743047

here is a high level game between 2 good players where you can see how primarina basically shits on the entire team, and there are other examples as well
I see, thanks.
Would be greatful if you share some other Primarina games (to be honest I feel like non-Gauging Fire+grass type sun teams is a real good match-ups for Primarina, but it doesn't illustrate how valuable Primarina can be in non niche situations (and how it warrants a huge A tier)).

Though I get that theoretically, if I understood you right, Primarina functions as a slow nuke that makes progress everytime it gets on screen (if there's no Glowing/Clodsire/Chancey on the opposite team).
 
Webs is probably better than C+ as a style rn. You could definitely make the argument that it deserves to be higher, with some good players finding success with scarf trick ribombee and screens + webs ribombee pioneering a new webs meta.
 
Why did Samurott-Hisui drop a subrank? Is it because of increased tusk and gliscor usage? Or does raging bolt play a part in this.
 
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I don't get how Primarina is better tiered than every other starter including Meowscarada and Samurott.
I tried it, and it gets chipped down by hazards like no other, gets demolished by poison types (Glowking and Clodsire especially), has no recovery, slow...
It can't even function well as a tank cause Kyurem and most special attackers hit it SE.
It's the only Water/Fairy type and it has good enough stats to make it work. This is a tier that already struggles with not having many good bulky Waters (pre-Tera), and a bulky Fairy type is also actually surprisingly rare. Clefable is niche, Enamorus is far from bulky, same with Iron Valiant. Primarina can take hits and dish them back out, and has a good amount of set variety.

Azumarill is more reliant on Physical attacks (easier to check), is naturally slower and relies on the inaccurate Play Rough. It also cannot setup in a way that boosts its defenses, crucial in this meta.

Primarina was always a good Pokemon on paper but it was just outclassed by Tapu Fini. The type just naturally gets it a lot of switch ins, while also being hard to switch into. Great Pokemon.
 
It's the only Water/Fairy type and it has good enough stats to make it work. This is a tier that already struggles with not having many good bulky Waters (pre-Tera), and a bulky Fairy type is also actually surprisingly rare. Clefable is niche, Enamorus is far from bulky, same with Iron Valiant. Primarina can take hits and dish them back out, and has a good amount of set variety.

Azumarill is more reliant on Physical attacks (easier to check), is naturally slower and relies on the inaccurate Play Rough. It also cannot setup in a way that boosts its defenses, crucial in this meta.

Primarina was always a good Pokemon on paper but it was just outclassed by Tapu Fini. The type just naturally gets it a lot of switch ins, while also being hard to switch into. Great Pokemon.
Clef is still good, just not as good as it was in dlc1,and it just doesn't offer the same offensive or defensive profile as Primarina, and Valiant and Enamorus just are not that bulky as said. I think clefable will become much better once a certain drawbridge gets banned.
 
Could :archaludon: be considered S rank, or does it's main viability being in Rain hold it back?

What makes Hydrapple B rank? I know it's niche on stall but the other stall queen Blissey is C+, is the AV set that good? I don't think so.
It's like an okay rain check but being a rain check doesn't make you B.

Nomming :Hydrapple: > C.
Of course the big water lover is downplaying the value of a rain check lol

(It was a shitty joke, forgive, I couldn't resist the irony of the post. I know nothing about Hydrapple's viability)
 
What makes Hydrapple B rank? I know it's niche on stall but the other stall queen Blissey is C+, is the AV set that good? I don't think so.
It's like an okay rain check but being a rain check doesn't make you B.

Nomming :Hydrapple: > C.
It can take so many hits and fire back quite well. The coverage of grass, dragon and ground is so good that you can do quite well with it and regenerator gives it much more breathing room. It is probably B- rank, but I don't think it is C rank. Taking on threats such as rillaboom and tusk is always great.
 
It can take so many hits and fire back quite well. The coverage of grass, dragon and ground is so good that you can do quite well with it and regenerator gives it much more breathing room. It is probably B- rank, but I don't think it is C rank. Taking on threats such as rillaboom and tusk is always great.
252+ Atk Rillaboom U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 150-178 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 272-320 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IDK bro, it has more bad matchups than good, it belongs closer to niche walls like mandibuzz and pecharunt in C rank and I would argue those two mons are better because unlike Hydrapple, they offer utility like toxic/knock off or pivoting with uturn/parting shot.
 
252+ Atk Rillaboom U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 150-178 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 272-320 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IDK bro, it has more bad matchups than good, it belongs closer to niche walls like mandibuzz and pecharunt in C rank and I would argue those two mons are better because unlike Hydrapple, they offer utility like toxic/knock off or pivoting with uturn/parting shot.
A 4x super effective move not even ohko'ing is insane, and reminder that it has regen, which can negate part/all of the damage it takes. Mandibuzz can be quite passive and struggles a lot with poison types, while being stonewalled by ghold, and pecharunt is good but can struggle against gambit. Hydrapple meanwhile mainly struggles with kyurem, but a tera can easily solve this. Mandibuzz can't really do much to ghold even with tera and pecharunt does have tera blast fighting, but that is a big thing to do.
The others do have their advantages, but hydrapple is more consistent, which means it can wall things in more games. Mandibuzz is not comparable because it is extremely passive and pecharunt has to give up on a lot of bulk to apply pressure. Hydrapple can do both, which is better than the others.

I agree with you that B rank is too high, but something B- is more realistic.
 
252+ Atk Rillaboom U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 150-178 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 272-320 (65.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IDK bro, it has more bad matchups than good, it belongs closer to niche walls like mandibuzz and pecharunt in C rank and I would argue those two mons are better because unlike Hydrapple, they offer utility like toxic/knock off or pivoting with uturn/parting shot.
There was recently a very successful RMT that made it to Rank 1 with Hydrapple stall. I recommend checking it out.
 
Only thing I really want to ask is why Zapdos is struggling ATM. (While still having a niche ofc)

Zapdos struggling in a meta where Rain is REALLY good does give me flashbacks to BW OU of all things so there's that.
 
Only thing I really want to ask is why Zapdos is struggling ATM. (While still having a niche ofc)

Zapdos struggling in a meta where Rain is REALLY good does give me flashbacks to BW OU of all things so there's that.
The answer is that Archaludon and Raging Bolt (mostly Raging Bolt) make the meta quite hostile to Zapdos as they easily eat Zapdos's attacks while setting up, so Zapdos is fodder for some of the meta's best mons right now.
 
Why didn't Clodsire rise to A-? I get that it's too passive for some playstyles, but with the advents of Arch, Bolt, and Glow usage, it matches up into the current meta exceptionally well and feels almost like an autoinclude for any structure that isn't outright offensive.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
:sv/tinkaton: D -> C Tier

Not much has changed about Tinkaton, but it's still a really nice role compression tool in the current metagame. Stealth Rock / Encore / TWave on their own are incredible utility tools for Tinkaton, who has a really nice speed tier that outspeeds the likes of Kingambit and Gholdengo. The icing on the cake is the interaction with Mold Breaker, allowing a few interactions that are very nice, mainly:

- Setting Rocks on Hatterene (shared by Exca)
- TWaving Hatterene, Gholdengo and Garganacl
- Encoring Hatterene and Gholdengo

With Air Balloon, it's able to compress many aspects that other steels are also able to do, by checking Kyurem, Non-Knock Gliscor, Roaring Moon, Weavile and Meowscarada. It's also a really interesting Raging Bolt check if it runs Play Rough, Encoring Bolt into CM, ThunderClap or Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, allowing it to switch to teammates to finish the job, or kill it itself.
 
Are those Hydrapple calcs for the AV set or the NP one? I think the Rillaboom one is actually a point in its favor: Regenerator + the Grassy Terrain healing will undo the damage from the U-Turn if it has to switch-out of whatever pivots in, after throwing a Special attack of its own which could be a now-GT boosted Giga Drain. The fact Hydrapple only needed HP to achieve these calcs is a pretty good show of its raw number bulk at least. The slow speed, useful resistances and longevity make it good at pushing damage progress as long as you know when to trade its health vs save it. It's almost like if Archaludon required thought or effort to use.

I would also argue that being a Rain check is worthy of a B Rank when the archetype is incredibly prominent/dominating pending Archaludon Suspect result. Pokemon have been ranked before for checking extremely prominent playstyles, and Hydrapple fits onto some teams for roles beyond that compared to some extremes like Gen 5 Weather interactions. I could see a drop to B- or C+ depending on Rain's fall off and effects, but a drop all the way to C seems a bit extreme for the moment where we still talk with the un-banned Arch meta.
 
Are those Hydrapple calcs for the AV set or the NP one? I think the Rillaboom one is actually a point in its favor: Regenerator + the Grassy Terrain healing will undo the damage from the U-Turn if it has to switch-out of whatever pivots in, after throwing a Special attack of its own which could be a now-GT boosted Giga Drain. The fact Hydrapple only needed HP to achieve these calcs is a pretty good show of its raw number bulk at least. The slow speed, useful resistances and longevity make it good at pushing damage progress as long as you know when to trade its health vs save it. It's almost like if Archaludon required thought or effort to use.

I would also argue that being a Rain check is worthy of a B Rank when the archetype is incredibly prominent/dominating pending Archaludon Suspect result. Pokemon have been ranked before for checking extremely prominent playstyles, and Hydrapple fits onto some teams for roles beyond that compared to some extremes like Gen 5 Weather interactions. I could see a drop to B- or C+ depending on Rain's fall off and effects, but a drop all the way to C seems a bit extreme for the moment where we still talk with the un-banned Arch meta.
Now bring out the fact that over 50% of Rillabooms run choice band, what is Hydrapple doing? Tera on a U-turn?

Also talking about Hydrapple as a rain check,

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Flip Turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple in Rain: 53-63 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Hydrapple: 294-348 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if hazards are up, it's a roll to just die right there. If Hazards isnt up then just hit it again. If its boots then it's dying to draco. If you tera then you're not longer a switch in to Barra.

Brother is not even a real rain check.
 
Now bring out the fact that over 50% of Rillabooms run choice band, what is Hydrapple doing? Tera on a U-turn?

Also talking about Hydrapple as a rain check,

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Flip Turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple in Rain: 53-63 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Hydrapple: 294-348 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if hazards are up, it's a roll to just die right there. If Hazards isnt up then just hit it again. If its boots then it's dying to draco. If you tera then you're not longer a switch in to Barra.

Brother is not even a real rain check.
You didn't use a Band Calc in the comment I was responding to, so I wasn't addressing the Band Calc as part of your point there. Regardless
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 226-266 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

This isn't un-recoverable damage for a Regenerator mon that's getting a turn of Terrain healing if it stays to eat the U-Turn. It chunks but that's an amount of health you could see a mon eating without being crippled the rest of the game.

(And now for my trademark of writing an essay wall in response to a couple lines)

As for the Rain interaction, it's not as cut and dry as you think there. Barraskewda is 2HKO'd by Hydrapple's Earth Power, never mind the STAB moves, while having at best a 2HKO roll with Band Close Combat, which it should never click because the -1 makes an OHKO possible (93% chance with 1 Spike/SR worth of Chip). Fickle Beam similarly has a decent OHKO chance after a Spike.

56+ SpA Hydrapple Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 152-179 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ SpA Hydrapple Earth Power vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 228-269 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
56+ SpA Hydrapple Fickle Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 202-238 (76.8 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if Barraskewda has no good move besides Flip Turn, Archaludon's not coming in on a free. Hydrapple can afford to click Earth Power or its "safe" STAB option in Fickle Beam (and should because Archaludon's lack of recovery, offensive Snowballing, and specific defensive benefits to Rain make it Priority #1 to make progress against).

56+ SpA Hydrapple Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 166-196 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
56+ SpA Hydrapple Fickle Beam vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 111-132 (29.8 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

If there's a Hazard down, Archaludon, the trade machine, itself is playing prediction unless it also Tera Fairies. If Hydrapple goes Tera Fairy, Draco Meteor just wastes the turn, while Flash Cannon at best 2HKO's on a SE hit. +1 Body Press isn't worth clicking regardless, and Electro Shot counts on Hydrapple going Tera because the 4x Resist makes the Chip negligible (Flip Turn + Electro Shot is 25% damage, still leaving +1 SE Flash Cannon as a roll to KO). The incredibly simplified flow you presented above runs on the assumption Archaludon came in for free, on a fast U-Turn off a mon that doesn't threaten Hydrapple into not clicking those moves (i.e. Barraskewda not clicking Flip Turn and simply attacking doesn't put enough pressure to click Giga Drain instead).

So a pristine Arch coming into a spike has 2 Moves for Tera Hydrapple and 1 for non-Tera. It basically must Tera itself to avoid a 2HKO if it came in on Earth Power or Full-Power Fickle Beam (knowing Arch is in the back leaves Hydrapple little reason to click its Grass STAB into the fast Pivot mon that dies even to neutral damage), which is an ask to acknowledge (even if not a dealbreaker) given teammates have use for that as much as it does like Bolt or Water-Stacking Barraskewda. Hydrapple losing the "both Tera" scenario by either being KO'd by Arch or not checking Barraskewda also assumes that it's Tera Fairy as on the example set, when if you're running it specifically to strength the Rain match-up, also presents options like Grass-Stack (ditching Dragon Weaknesses for Mono-Grass has merit defensively) or Tera Water to resist potential Ice damage, the latter letting it sit on Pelipper at the cost of having to predict around Electro Shot more.

56+ SpA Tera Grass Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tera Fairy Archaludon: 138-164 (37 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (16.6 - 19.7% recovered)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Hydrapple in Rain: 204-240 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

Grass stack also puts a dent in Tera Archaludon while allowing it to outheal anything besides un-debuffed Draco and Flash Cannon, making it a safe Tera to click defensively whether or not Arch goes for its own. If Archaludon switches out that's more progress on it than on Hydrapple given Regenerator, and others on Rain hate to go up against the Apple without Tera themselves (Raging Bolt 2HKO's at best while OHKO'd by Draco or 2HKO'd by EP + Fickle Beam without Fairy, Damp Rock Defensive Pelipper Hurricane can't 2HKO even with a layer of Spikes).

It's not exactly eating everything just by existing with a simple plan, but Hydrapple has a particular niche here in that Arch/Skewda doesn't run it over. the way most things worry about beating on and struggling/being cautious into the other (Clod, Walking Wake, Bolt, Kyurem).
 
:Hatterene: -> A+ / S-Rank
I will get pushback for this, but... the utility Hat provides to a team is invaluable. In a metagame where hazard removal is sparse and difficult to do given the high power level of various threats + the Ghosts being quite tricky to play around, Hatterene's ability to not only prevent hazards from being set-up but punishing the opponent for clicking them - even if just temporarily - is extremely high value, completely disrupting the gameplan of many of our tier's best Spikers such as Gliscor, Skarmory, Ting-Lu, etc. It makes it significantly easier to maneuver around the hazards. This alone is quite good, but Hatterene provides fantastic utiilty on top of this by being a fantastic wincon and paralysis spreader, generating free turns for itself or its teammates to setup and sweep. Pretty much any form of team support, whether it be Grassy Seed + G-Terrain, Veil, Intimidate support, Veil support, etc. go a long way in exponentially improving Hat's performance as a general win-con AND supporter, making it an invaluable member on multiple playstyles, ranging from G-Terrain, BO, Screens, Sun, Rain, and even more niche styles such as Trick Room and Psychic Terrain. Compared to its S-Rank buddy, Great Tusk, I find Hatterene to be a much easier Pokemon to slot on most teams, as it does not overlap in weaknesses with Pokemon such as Lando-T, Ting-Lu, Rillaboom, etc. Being one of our tier's only natural Fairies is also quite good, though Hatterene doesn't exactly pivot into many of our Dragons well.

Overall, Hatterene's invaluable supportive qualities make it an easy and powerful fit onto many teamstyles. Despite not strictly becoming better now, I believe its utility is so valuable, that it should rise to reflect the importance of its role.
 
:alomomola: -> A-/B+
While alomomola is still a great mon, I do not think it is in the same league as other A- mons such as Dragonite and Valiant. It is quite passive and unlike the similarly passive clefable, doesn't have a large movepool and passive damage immunity. Still a good mon, but it just can't compete with other A- mons.
:Darkrai: -> B+/A-
I think that the current placement is under selling Darkrai's power a bit. It has amazing speed and can be threatening as both a np sweeper and a choice scarfer. It can naturally threaten massive damage and has niche options like knock off for disruption. It feels like weavile without priority, which itself is A tier, so I think a tier below is fair.
:Serperior: -> B+/A-
This one might be a little controversial and if it isn't done, then I'm fine with it, however I believe serp could go up a rank. The best set in my opinion is the sub+glare+leech seed set which can cheese it's way past counters. I've beaten volcs with this set multiple times. It also isn't frail for a mon with its speed as it can easily invest in bulk because it's power is boosted by just attacking. Won't complain if this isn't taken into account, but I think it is worth mentioning.
 
:Hatterene: -> A+ / S-Rank
I will get pushback for this, but... the utility Hat provides to a team is invaluable. In a metagame where hazard removal is sparse and difficult to do given the high power level of various threats + the Ghosts being quite tricky to play around, Hatterene's ability to not only prevent hazards from being set-up but punishing the opponent for clicking them - even if just temporarily - is extremely high value, completely disrupting the gameplan of many of our tier's best Spikers such as Gliscor, Skarmory, Ting-Lu, etc. It makes it significantly easier to maneuver around the hazards. This alone is quite good, but Hatterene provides fantastic utiilty on top of this by being a fantastic wincon and paralysis spreader, generating free turns for itself or its teammates to setup and sweep. Pretty much any form of team support, whether it be Grassy Seed + G-Terrain, Veil, Intimidate support, Veil support, etc. go a long way in exponentially improving Hat's performance as a general win-con AND supporter, making it an invaluable member on multiple playstyles, ranging from G-Terrain, BO, Screens, Sun, Rain, and even more niche styles such as Trick Room and Psychic Terrain. Compared to its S-Rank buddy, Great Tusk, I find Hatterene to be a much easier Pokemon to slot on most teams, as it does not overlap in weaknesses with Pokemon such as Lando-T, Ting-Lu, Rillaboom, etc. Being one of our tier's only natural Fairies is also quite good, though Hatterene doesn't exactly pivot into many of our Dragons well.

Overall, Hatterene's invaluable supportive qualities make it an easy and powerful fit onto many teamstyles. Despite not strictly becoming better now, I believe its utility is so valuable, that it should rise to reflect the importance of its role.
I love the fact that she can take full advantage of Trick Room all by herself.
 
1000045210.png
B+ -> A-

It's becoming a running joke of stall teams peaking on ladder. This thing may as well be to stall as pelipper is to rain. It's borderline impossible to make viable stall without
1000045210.png
. Gouging Fire opting to run breaking swipe to beat curse
1000045210.png
is really a testament to its influence.

1708423988495.png
C+ -> B

Other side of the coin. However,
1000045217.png
specifically benefitted from the departure of Archaludon, hence raising it two spots. It no longer has to fear Body Press from something it would otherwise wall. It really only has to fear the odd Psyshock, and tera dark alleviates that.
1000045217.png
also has quite a few options for what it wants to run. Calm Mind in particular allows it to shut down special attackers that think they can set up on it. Again, a testament to its influence is Volcanion running Taunt + Fire Spin to get rid of
1000045217.png
.
 

Attachments

View attachment 606228 B+ -> A-

It's becoming a running joke of stall teams peaking on ladder. This thing may as well be to stall as pelipper is to rain. It's borderline impossible to make viable stall without View attachment 606229. Gouging Fire opting to run breaking swipe to beat curse View attachment 606230 is really a testament to its influence.

View attachment 606231C+ -> B

Other side of the coin. However, View attachment 606234 specifically benefitted from the departure of Archaludon, hence raising it two spots. It no longer has to fear Body Press from something it would otherwise wall. It really only has to fear the odd Psyshock, and tera dark alleviates that. View attachment 606239 also has quite a few options for what it wants to run. Calm Mind in particular allows it to shut down special attackers that think they can set up on it. Again, a testament to its influence is Volcanion running Taunt + Fire Spin to get rid of View attachment 606246.
Hard agree on dozo, especially since as we saw in spl last week dozo has begun creeping its way into balance structures as a potent late game sweeper+setup check. You could honestly even argue that it should be higher. Its certainly better than dirge as it stands.
 

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