What is the best spread to use kingambit? Is it 252 atk/224 speed with 32 hp or 252 atk,252 hp and 6 spdef. Not sure if there has been a specified ev spread for him.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Even moreso than Iron Bundle and Palafin, Shed Tail and Rage Fist/Annihilape need to be banned. Those moves are just straight uncompetetive. Shed Tail has been explained at length, sub + pass in one move is inherently broken when you combine it with screens and being able to change your type at will once the receiptiant has received the pass. Rage Fist is just Last Respects with arguably less opportunity cost and on a signifcantly better pokemon. I feel like there could be potential for some sort of clause that bans both these weird exponentially scaling moves and spare both Houndstone and Annihilape from being banned. While there's tons of potential pokemon that are probably currently overpowered, I think it's fine to let the meta breathe for a little bit when it comes to them. But no meta developments will make Rage Fist and Shed Tail moves that should be allowed in a competetive format.
I know this topic is waaaay past its expiration date and we’ve sufficiently moved on but I want to throw my thoughts on the Houndstone Ban controversy; I want to actually take a sec to defend the council’s decision to ban LR instead of Houndstone. If mods want to delete this then I understand, but I’ve had something I’ve been itching to say, and since it’s unlikely that this will be the last time such a tiering decision is made (and I don’t have posting access in Policy Review; wink winks mods) I figured I’d say my thoughts here… but if you want to discuss this further I implore you to take it up in my DMs so we don’t stink up this thread with this discussion any longer than it already has. But, I’ve been defending the decision on Twitter, Youtube, Reddit, etc (I’m a good lil bootlicker) so clearly this is a hot-button issue with the competitive Pokemon community at large and I’ve seen what amounts to mostly negative reactions to it.
Point is, Game Freak hardly ever changes a Pokemon mid-generation, so there is no expectation to rely on the hope of any official nerfs or buffs. However, what IS likely- and we know with 99% certaintity that it’s going to happen- is that old Pokemon are introduced and are given updated movepools.
We are reasonably sure that this is going to happen with Basculegion.
Either way, for this reason, in nearly every case, banning the Pokemon should be the preferred tiering decision over banning moves (or abilities for that matter, see Gorilla Tactics).
To get into the realm of the hypothetical; let’s say we just ban Last Respects, leaving Houndstone legal but languishing in the lower tiers for the months leading up to Home’s release. If Basculegion is released and we are reasonably sure it would not be broken with Laat Respects, the path forward becomes very awkward.
Would we unban Last Respects then to test it? Doing so would mean we’d have to awkwardly ban Houndstone despite it having been in the lower tiers for months; it would be the first case of a mon going from PU to Ubers over night.
Would we unban Last Respects just for Basculegion? That would potentially be even more cumbersome; how can we logically say a move is banned when it’s legal on a different Pokemon? What happens if some DLC introduces a low-BST shitter like Calyrex that gets the move? Do we keep it banned for one Pokemon but not the other? Do we let the move stay unilaterally banned even though its not broken on the shitty Pokemon?
I’m sure these questions have been brought up in this thread already and I apologize for retracing discussions of yore but….I just can’t help myself. With discssions on Rage Fist and Jet Punch, I feel like it’s important to hash these things out. Point is; the less messier the tiering decision the better and the decision with the least amount of baggage later down the road should always be preferred.
Anyway bye
Point is, Game Freak hardly ever changes a Pokemon mid-generation, so there is no expectation to rely on the hope of any official nerfs or buffs. However, what IS likely- and we know with 99% certaintity that it’s going to happen- is that old Pokemon are introduced and are given updated movepools.
We are reasonably sure that this is going to happen with Basculegion.
Either way, for this reason, in nearly every case, banning the Pokemon should be the preferred tiering decision over banning moves (or abilities for that matter, see Gorilla Tactics).
To get into the realm of the hypothetical; let’s say we just ban Last Respects, leaving Houndstone legal but languishing in the lower tiers for the months leading up to Home’s release. If Basculegion is released and we are reasonably sure it would not be broken with Laat Respects, the path forward becomes very awkward.
Would we unban Last Respects then to test it? Doing so would mean we’d have to awkwardly ban Houndstone despite it having been in the lower tiers for months; it would be the first case of a mon going from PU to Ubers over night.
Would we unban Last Respects just for Basculegion? That would potentially be even more cumbersome; how can we logically say a move is banned when it’s legal on a different Pokemon? What happens if some DLC introduces a low-BST shitter like Calyrex that gets the move? Do we keep it banned for one Pokemon but not the other? Do we let the move stay unilaterally banned even though its not broken on the shitty Pokemon?
I’m sure these questions have been brought up in this thread already and I apologize for retracing discussions of yore but….I just can’t help myself. With discssions on Rage Fist and Jet Punch, I feel like it’s important to hash these things out. Point is; the less messier the tiering decision the better and the decision with the least amount of baggage later down the road should always be preferred.
Anyway bye
Personally let the council do their job and get the bundle and dolphin first. Let the meta breath for a while before we go ban happy with the next set of mons. We keep asking for more bans on more new Pokemon and we wont have much to work with this gen. May as well go back to Gen 8 if the next thing and thing after and the next big thing keeps getting chopped. Seems like a trend that is spirally weekly and needs to be looked at by many lens at least for a few weeks before making claims about this Pokemon getting the nail when there are already two Pokemon up for banning at this point.
Pokemon has always been filled with 50/50s or at least turns where you make a prediction. That’s inherent in the game. I get that Tera adds another layer of uncertainty but it’s not like we don’t have any uncertainty in the game already.
Although I think it is very very unlikely we see a Tera Mod, I do think that it could still work and that they aren’t just meager suggestions. Something that someone has probably already suggested but that I’ve been thinking about lately has been a Tera Crystal item, that acts similar to a Z-crystal. Takes up the item slot, forces you to choose which mons you want to be capable of Tera at teambuilder, and if you want to have multiple mons capable of it, you pay the opportunity cost of having to use the item slot.
Long time lurker, first time poster here - I just wanted to query why the idea of leaving the tier with minimal bans for a certain period, i.e. 2 weeks, hasn't been more seriously considered considered? While this would allow for broken mons to run wild for a small window, I feel it would allow the meta to improve in the long run.
We're clearly still in the process of discovering new big threats, making innovations and even only just fully discovering the exact cartridge mechanics (!), with a bit of time for innovation certain things may be less broken than they appear.
Is there a reason people couldn't 'suffer' through an uncompetitive metagame for a short period of time to allow for a potentially fairer and more measured assessment of what is broken and therefore a less stale and healthier metagame in the long run?
Open to any refutals lol
We're clearly still in the process of discovering new big threats, making innovations and even only just fully discovering the exact cartridge mechanics (!), with a bit of time for innovation certain things may be less broken than they appear.
Is there a reason people couldn't 'suffer' through an uncompetitive metagame for a short period of time to allow for a potentially fairer and more measured assessment of what is broken and therefore a less stale and healthier metagame in the long run?
Open to any refutals lol
Unlike Last Respects, Rage Fist requires actual skillful play to get the most out of. It's far from a mindless move and while bulk up+taunt Annihilape can be obnoxious to deal with sometimes due to its natural bulk, it is far from unbeatable. You get used to playing around it and adapt to it.
Allowing blatantly broken mons to run loose in a metagame will just cause it to stagnate. Stuff like Flutter Mane and Houndstone were obvious but even stuff like Iron Bundle and Palafin have such a short list of reasonable counterplay, and their presence will potentially just chokehold the tier and prevent it from developing in a healthy way. Banning these clearly overpowered pokemon will go a long way to opening up teambuilding options and letting players discover more possibly viable pokemon.
It's already been a week since the game came out, and there are 100+ OU battles occurring at this very moment. There are plenty of players with enough time to innovate around the big threats; and banned things can always be retested later.
Just because something can be played around or checked/countered doesn't entirely mean it shouldn't be banned. Dracovish last gen was a good example. It was nearly hardcountered by Seismitoad but this meant that nearly everyone was using Seismitoad. It was seriously in the top 10 most used OU mons; not because it was particularly good, but because it was necessary. This is bad for a metagame. You don't want any Pokemon that is too invalidating. Seismitoad ended the generation in RU; it's clear that the Dracovish ban was the right decision, and waiting a week or two wouldn't really have changed anything. I am sure we will find similar results with Palafin and all the odd mons that are being used to counter it. I doubt so many people are running Dondozo because they absolutely love using Dondozo.
I always think it's important to remember that Pokemon is not designed with the intention of being balanced, atleast not in singles. Makes banning things are lot more palatable when you remember we are doing Game Freak's work for them.
can't speak for the council but quickbans are nice for mons who are pretty obviously broken. even though giving a meta time does let it develop counters to stuff that did seem broken at one point, for mons like flutter mane you don't need to be a fortune teller to realize it's totally stupid and has no consistent counterplay. it's best to get rid of the dumb stuff quickly and retests are always an option given enough demand.
I don't see how a move that can reach 350 bp just by taking hits, which is super easy to enable through wish passing, screens, tera etc. is any more skillful than having the rest of your team die. The opportunity cost with Last Respects seems far far greater.
Wish passing is not as common as past gens at least right now with the limited number of viable passers. It may just be Scream Tail as viable (blissey sucks lol), though anyone feel free to correct that if I am wrong. Screens based Annihilape team are pretty obvious from team preview and with the offensive meta rn you should be prepping for screens and HO teams in general. Tera applies to everything. An Annihilape team can't just swap it in freely and start boosting. And you have options like Dragapult (who bypasses screens) and fairy types to pressure it. There is legitimate fair counterplay to Annilihape while Houndstone had extremely specific counterplay.
Tldr; Annihilape is a strong pokemon you should be prepping for anyways.
Banning Flutter Mane and Houndstone honestly could be considered minimal bans. When clearly broken stuff runs around in a tier, it causes an unhealthy amount of centralisation. You are currently seeing that with Palafin in particular. As Moyashi already suggested, this actually causes stagnation, rather than allowing the metagame to flow freely.
By removing the clearly broken elements, you open up teambuilding options. It also allows us to analyze with better clarity some of the less obvious broken Pokemon and more fundamental questions. Terastallize being the big one.
Simple, it's a lot easier to sack 5 mons over the course of the game than to keep 1 alive. Last Respects is a pretty much guaranteed last mon option, whereas maneuvering to keep your ape alive requires a bit more finesse.
Yes, it is enabled by wish-passing, screens and tera. Wish-passing is too slow, and not super common. Screens and Tera are things you should be actively prepping for anyway. Houndstone needed none of that.
The opportunity cost for Last Respects is not your team dying. Scarf was a reasonable revenge killer in mid stages of the game and a brutal game ender as anchor, with somewhere between Zero set-up, or at most, slapping a Tyranitar on your team. Sand Stream doesn't even cost turns to set up unlike Wish passing or Screens. Houndstone was not a cost to play, it was insurance against loss. If your main core was insufficient to win the game, Houndstone would just win it for you instead.
Houndstone on paper forced you to play 4.5 vs 6 to use it, but it makes your opponent warp their entire playstyle around preventing it from simply ending the game. Your opponent can't get the full value out of their Pokemon, because they are forced to play too conservatively with their team to prevent Houndstone from giving them an instant loss. You on the other hand, can play your team suicidally aggressively as long as you can force the Houndstone answers out of the way. You functionally end on dead even ground, except you get the added benefit of having an instant-win Houndstone in the back.
As the meta currently stands, saying X or Y type can pressure any mon isn't really a viable arguement for obvious reasons. Also, there's just as few viable fairy types at the moment as there are wish passers. As someone who has been spamming a team with wisp infilitrator pult + helmet amoonguss, I can tell you that I've been about as throughly prepped for it as you can get. It doesn't have the set diversity and mid game practicality as Palafin, but as wincon the sub taunt Annihilape takes just a little skill as the taunt bulk up Palafin set, and probably has even less counters.
I agree with you but I also agree with all the bans so far (+palafin & bundle). I think it’s good to be patient, but sometimes there are things that are clearly broken before you even play them. We have precedence with something like flutter mane being too broken (it’s just spectrier but better lol).
anything further might be pushing it though, I think something like a roaring moon ban this early on is way too far.
We're getting close to a week in, so preliminary thoughts are beginning to settle. As a longtime observer of OU, the last time I played much was when Swift Swim was legal alongside OU perma-rain, so quite a few things have changed over the years. While I don't consider myself a particularly good battler, I've been able to settle into the mid-1600s without too much difficulty while piloting bulky balance, so that should be enough to get an idea of the meta. My thoughts on the most notable mons/mechanics are as follows:
Palafin
Taunt Bulk Up is a nasty, nasty set, and everyone's been swept by it several times by now. But I don't think enough people emphasize that this mon gives the opponent two very free turns, which means if you thoroughly build for the dolphin, you can outright farm it unless it's played really well. Leading your best breaker into it is often really free. Consider Iron Bundle, who particularly loves the free chance to fire a Specs Hydro or Ice Beam into the expected switch-in. This applies to any worthy breaker, especially mons with pivot moves in their back pocket. As for its Banded set, because it's significantly harder to completely wall, it can be said that it always gives value in a game, which is key for a mon that surrenders 2 free Zero to Hero turns. But of course, there are more ways to go about checking Banded dolphin, so the ceiling is a bit lower than Taunt Bulk Up. So, while I'd personally prefer building around Banded, Taunt Bulk Up is the set that demands at least one really good answer in the builder. Probably the only reason to quickban a mon just a week into a new meta is if it invalidates a huge number of teams, but Taunt Bulk Up Palafin seems guilty of doing so.
Iron Bundle
Saying the Specs set for this mon has no switch-ins is pretty much correct. Even Blissey/Chansey can get pressured into 2HKO range easily enough by Flip/U-Turn along with terastalizing (+ hazards in Chansey's case). But the existence of Palafin certainly exacerbates this mon (and vice versa), as their common checks are caught between physdef and spdef spreads. For this reason, rather than a joint ban, I hope to see one of the two go individually, to evaluate the other separately. Preferably Palafin, because you can check Specs Bundle with hazards and pivoting, and Boots Bundle is much more manageable to switch into. While I do think this mon is likely banworthy, I'd like the chance to see how much it stretches teambuilding without the specter of Palafin lurking.
Rage Fist
This move is stupid, and when combined with a fast taunt, good bulk, a single coverage move, and potential defensive terastalizing, it has the ability to invalidate almost all bulky teams. Annihilape and even Eviolite Primeape have all those tools. If the meta was any less offensive, the absurd nature of this move would've become evident just as quickly as Last Respects, and as such, this is the most banworthy part of the metagame. I hope the council takes notice, because while it does take more skill, this move is actually in some ways more comically unbalanced than Last Respects.
Shed Tail Cyclizar
This is another move with depressingly limited reliable counterplay. Unlike Orthworm, due to Cyclizar's extensive utility, it doesn't present a sizeable opportunity cost, so ban discussions should initially revolve around the lizard to prevent muddying of the discussion. The issue with this mon and this move is essentially similar to a slightly softer version of Arena Trap or Shadow Tag. Switching is how we counter and check things in Pokemon, but you cannot reliably switch to counter or check Shed Tail, because staying in is the only way to deny the Substitute. Similarly to using Dugtrio, the only difficulty is to get Cyclizar in safely against the right mon, but as we've seen, this is very doable. Just as Arena Trap can be circumvented by preemptive switching, Flying types, Levitate, and pivoting moves, switching can function as counterplay to Shed Tail as well, by going into a phazer, Infiltrator mon, multi-hit attacker, or a mon with a sound move. But despite the existence of limited switching counterplay to Arena Trap, it is still uncompetitive due to its ability to massively limit switching as counterplay. So too is Shed Tail.
Terastalizing
As a previous poster mentioned, nerfing this mechanic by communicating each mon's teratype at preview is an inane suggestion that will open a can of worms regarding information warfare and fake threats that in no way resembles cartridge gameplay. Nothing I've seen about this mechanic indicates it's particularly balanced, but nonetheless I feel we have an obligation to see balancing attempts through for as long as Dynamax. It seems very implausible, but perhaps we simply need more time to learn all the viable types and how to play around them? Personally, I'd really love to see it in the first SPL of gen 9, at least. It's certainly a thrilling mechanic; few things in mons have ever given me as much joy as clicking Freeze-Dry into a +2 Chi Yu the turn it terastalized into a water-resist, and watching it drop.
Palafin
Taunt Bulk Up is a nasty, nasty set, and everyone's been swept by it several times by now. But I don't think enough people emphasize that this mon gives the opponent two very free turns, which means if you thoroughly build for the dolphin, you can outright farm it unless it's played really well. Leading your best breaker into it is often really free. Consider Iron Bundle, who particularly loves the free chance to fire a Specs Hydro or Ice Beam into the expected switch-in. This applies to any worthy breaker, especially mons with pivot moves in their back pocket. As for its Banded set, because it's significantly harder to completely wall, it can be said that it always gives value in a game, which is key for a mon that surrenders 2 free Zero to Hero turns. But of course, there are more ways to go about checking Banded dolphin, so the ceiling is a bit lower than Taunt Bulk Up. So, while I'd personally prefer building around Banded, Taunt Bulk Up is the set that demands at least one really good answer in the builder. Probably the only reason to quickban a mon just a week into a new meta is if it invalidates a huge number of teams, but Taunt Bulk Up Palafin seems guilty of doing so.
Iron Bundle
Saying the Specs set for this mon has no switch-ins is pretty much correct. Even Blissey/Chansey can get pressured into 2HKO range easily enough by Flip/U-Turn along with terastalizing (+ hazards in Chansey's case). But the existence of Palafin certainly exacerbates this mon (and vice versa), as their common checks are caught between physdef and spdef spreads. For this reason, rather than a joint ban, I hope to see one of the two go individually, to evaluate the other separately. Preferably Palafin, because you can check Specs Bundle with hazards and pivoting, and Boots Bundle is much more manageable to switch into. While I do think this mon is likely banworthy, I'd like the chance to see how much it stretches teambuilding without the specter of Palafin lurking.
Rage Fist
This move is stupid, and when combined with a fast taunt, good bulk, a single coverage move, and potential defensive terastalizing, it has the ability to invalidate almost all bulky teams. Annihilape and even Eviolite Primeape have all those tools. If the meta was any less offensive, the absurd nature of this move would've become evident just as quickly as Last Respects, and as such, this is the most banworthy part of the metagame. I hope the council takes notice, because while it does take more skill, this move is actually in some ways more comically unbalanced than Last Respects.
Shed Tail Cyclizar
This is another move with depressingly limited reliable counterplay. Unlike Orthworm, due to Cyclizar's extensive utility, it doesn't present a sizeable opportunity cost, so ban discussions should initially revolve around the lizard to prevent muddying of the discussion. The issue with this mon and this move is essentially similar to a slightly softer version of Arena Trap or Shadow Tag. Switching is how we counter and check things in Pokemon, but you cannot reliably switch to counter or check Shed Tail, because staying in is the only way to deny the Substitute. Similarly to using Dugtrio, the only difficulty is to get Cyclizar in safely against the right mon, but as we've seen, this is very doable. Just as Arena Trap can be circumvented by preemptive switching, Flying types, Levitate, and pivoting moves, switching can function as counterplay to Shed Tail as well, by going into a phazer, Infiltrator mon, multi-hit attacker, or a mon with a sound move. But despite the existence of limited switching counterplay to Arena Trap, it is still uncompetitive due to its ability to massively limit switching as counterplay. So too is Shed Tail.
Terastalizing
As a previous poster mentioned, nerfing this mechanic by communicating each mon's teratype at preview is an inane suggestion that will open a can of worms regarding information warfare and fake threats that in no way resembles cartridge gameplay. Nothing I've seen about this mechanic indicates it's particularly balanced, but nonetheless I feel we have an obligation to see balancing attempts through for as long as Dynamax. It seems very implausible, but perhaps we simply need more time to learn all the viable types and how to play around them? Personally, I'd really love to see it in the first SPL of gen 9, at least. It's certainly a thrilling mechanic; few things in mons have ever given me as much joy as clicking Freeze-Dry into a +2 Chi Yu the turn it terastalized into a water-resist, and watching it drop.
RE Annahilape, does rage fist counter still trigger behind a sub?
Wait until RU is established at least. Orthworm cute and a Steel type having a ground immunity is great, but it's just not viable in OU at all, nor will it be viable in UU.
You never know, there aren’t that many steel types running around this gen, orthworm could definitely thrive down in UU with a much lower power level. Earth eater is a better levitate, and it has some pretty solid support moves including the most broken pivoting move.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I wouldn’t call it a strictly better Levitate, since Spikes is everywhere in this gen, but yeah, Earth Eater is a fantastic Ability, especially since it’s Orthworm’s only form of recovery.
SV OUs Offense Problem
In this post, I'm going to particularly target offense as a playstyle and what enables it to be so over the top in the generation so far. There are things that I won't mention in this post that also can be considered a problem in the metagame, but I'm strictly going to talk about everything under the lens of how it makes Offense obnoxious to face.
Low ladder this generation is incredibly fun so far, people are testing weird sets and new pokemon with the addition of terra which opens up a ton of creativity in how you can build. However, once you start to hit top 100 territories I find the tier starts to become less fun. Why? Well obviously when you get this high people aren't playing just "for fun", they want to win. Normally this isn't an issue, but an issue can start arising when game after game it feels like you're playing the exact same team. This can be cited as a concern in a past generation due to how the tier played, a lot of teams ended up feeling similar. However, in higher ladder SV all the teams are legitimately the same. Of course, there will be some exceptions like Ox The Fox who I've seen use primarily different versions of balance, Mimikyu Stardust who has just been himself and continues to be experimental in building, or the odd stall player in general such as Pokemonisfun. For the most part, though, a lot of teams you face will be Hazard Stack + Gholdengo, ShedPass, Grimmsnarl screens, or some combination of the formers. This is because this is what wins if I was to put it simply. Though it runs a little deeper than that because these types of offenses are so over-the-top good to the point where most games just tend to feel the same, or if you give in and run them yourself, a mirror match-up despite the teams potentially only having one or two mons in common. This tends to be the nature of Hyper Offense vs Hyper Offense matchups in general and in a tier where these archetypes are by far the best, it tends to be very boring. Every metagame is going to have stuff that is better than the rest, but there also needs to be diversity, most importantly in the archetypes being played. With SV being so new, there are going to be a lot of problems to fix no doubt and some of the things I'll mention in the rest of this post are already on the chopping block. But, I felt like making a post on how to neuter offense as a whole rather than how mons are broken individually as I feel it can give us some potential insight on how we might approach future tiering decisions.
TERRALIZATION
GHOLDENGO
PALAFIN
SHED TAIL AND GRIMMSNARL
HONORABLE MENTION
Overall I feel offense and in particular, spike-stacking variants, are way too dominant in the current metagame. Games tend to feel incredibly samey and typically tend to be won by match up or who terra'd better which is not ideal if our goal is to create a competitive format. I feel neutering offense should also be something the council considers when making future tiering decisions as I feel that would be the best direction in creating a competitive tier that promotes diverse archetypes and these are some steps I'd personally take.
In this post, I'm going to particularly target offense as a playstyle and what enables it to be so over the top in the generation so far. There are things that I won't mention in this post that also can be considered a problem in the metagame, but I'm strictly going to talk about everything under the lens of how it makes Offense obnoxious to face.
Low ladder this generation is incredibly fun so far, people are testing weird sets and new pokemon with the addition of terra which opens up a ton of creativity in how you can build. However, once you start to hit top 100 territories I find the tier starts to become less fun. Why? Well obviously when you get this high people aren't playing just "for fun", they want to win. Normally this isn't an issue, but an issue can start arising when game after game it feels like you're playing the exact same team. This can be cited as a concern in a past generation due to how the tier played, a lot of teams ended up feeling similar. However, in higher ladder SV all the teams are legitimately the same. Of course, there will be some exceptions like Ox The Fox who I've seen use primarily different versions of balance, Mimikyu Stardust who has just been himself and continues to be experimental in building, or the odd stall player in general such as Pokemonisfun. For the most part, though, a lot of teams you face will be Hazard Stack + Gholdengo, ShedPass, Grimmsnarl screens, or some combination of the formers. This is because this is what wins if I was to put it simply. Though it runs a little deeper than that because these types of offenses are so over-the-top good to the point where most games just tend to feel the same, or if you give in and run them yourself, a mirror match-up despite the teams potentially only having one or two mons in common. This tends to be the nature of Hyper Offense vs Hyper Offense matchups in general and in a tier where these archetypes are by far the best, it tends to be very boring. Every metagame is going to have stuff that is better than the rest, but there also needs to be diversity, most importantly in the archetypes being played. With SV being so new, there are going to be a lot of problems to fix no doubt and some of the things I'll mention in the rest of this post are already on the chopping block. But, I felt like making a post on how to neuter offense as a whole rather than how mons are broken individually as I feel it can give us some potential insight on how we might approach future tiering decisions.
TERRALIZATION
Considering we should be getting a pr thread soon, I'm not going to stay on the topic of terra for too long (Or at least not long in comparison to how long I could actually talk about the topic). However, it's hard to ignore the game-changing qualities terra brings when talking about why Offense is so strong right now. Being able to change your type whenever you want brings a plethora of different interactions that benefits offense. While the concept of defensive terralization exists, ironically, offensive pokemon benefit from defensive terralization more than defensive mons. To start off, its no surprise that pokemon who use terra offensively such as Roaring Moon have became a talking point recently. Roaring Moon is the best abuser of offense terra being able to turn into a variety of types that help it muscle through checks such as; Flying, Steel, Fire, and Dark to just name a few of the more popular ones. This makes Roaring Moon one of the premier progress makers on offense as it's able to poke huge holes in most defensive cores. While most can agree in a metagame where terra exists, Roaring Moon is likely broken, there is some question as to if it would be ban worthy in a meta without terra. Roaring Moon is a strong mon on its own but its reliance on terra to break through its checks makes it the monster that it is currently. Speculation? Yes, however, it's a fair assessment to make with the tools we currently have in the metagame and isn't a hard conclusion to reach. While offensive terralization is strong, I'd argue the benefits of using defensive terralization on offensive pokemon is far greater. We've already seen this a lot. Recently banned pokemon such as Houndstone being one of the greatest offenders, being able to terra into a fighting type to avoid being revenge killed by sucker punch was the tipping point on an already sinking ship in that case. We're seeing it with more Pokemon now too; Water Annihilape, Grass Volcarona, Steel Palafin, and Fighting Gholdengo all use terra defensively in order to bypass counterplay. This is only a small handful of examples as well, with more popping up every day at this point. Have you ever seen a dragonite terra into a normal type to set up on a sball locked ghost type then win with espeed? There's basically endless applications of defensive terra and while it's creative for sure there is no way to predict any of this as its basically impossible to prepare for. It almost throws the idea of building a solid all-around team out the window in favor of using something that just wins faster (hopefully) in order to be up on sacks to reduce the odds of losing because something randomly terra typing and walling your last mon and you can't do anything about it. This is inherently uncompetive as you on paper can have all the tools to win on your team and have a favorable position through better playing but this can all be turned on its head through a random terra type because it's just impossible to predict. As I mentioned, the best way to avoid this is just to win faster than your opponent. Though other people have realized this so its led to the Offense vs Offense metagame we currently have, and the nature of offensive teams is generally matchup fishy so games typically end with who has the better mu or utilized their terralization better than who played better. There is little reward for building an all-around solid team currently. Removing Terralization may upset the casual players, but if we want the most competitive metagame possible this is almost certainly a no-brainer.
GHOLDENGO
This comes second on my list as this mons ability single handily makes hazard stack teams incredibly over-centralizing. In a generation where removal is already limited and a ton of pokemon got spikes, we have a spin blocker that also blocks defog and is immune to status and most forms of phasing. I consider this guy basically a must on any team utilizing spikes, seriously, it makes removing hazards almost impossible to remove. The only removal that somewhat threatens it is the donphans but they cant switch in as both can get nuked by gholdengos coverage while sets like balloon gholdengo can come in for almost free. This warps the metagame around hazard stack teams and you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by not using it. While I suspect we will still have a metagame where hazard management is very important without gholdengo, its ability to invalidate basically all removal frankly has no place in the tier. It's funny because I think this mon is pretty just okay if you were to take the ability of the equation, but having an ability like good is gold + the typing is way too much. It is honestly sad when I load into a game agaisnt somebody using fat or a similar archetype and theyre forced to run mono boots because they don't really have an option. Like do I need to explain why thats an issue? Yes, we will still see spinblockers in this meta, but its much easier to punish something like pult coming in comparison to gholdengo. Its utility is also insane; trick, nasty plot, recover alongside its primary stabs make it hell for any fat team to face. Basically, Gholdengo invalidates most of the tiers removal other than the donphans while still having options to get around them which turns the turn into a hazard stack centric mess. Not just on offense, but fats primary win condition is to set up hazards and pray they don't get destroyed by some random mon that terra'd before the opposing team dies to chip. Gholdengo being a mon with a good typing, good enough stabs and incredible utility makes it too easy to fit on teams and the benefits of using it far out-weight the cons if you are trying to win games. In a generation with incredible hazard setters and somewhat poor removal options, this pokemon has no place in the tier in our current environment. As a last little note on gholdengo, being able to terra this mon on the correct turn also slightly increases its longevity which makes it even more of a headache to face.
PALAFIN
Listing this guy after the primary offenders and before the secondary archetype due to the fact that he's offense's premier revenge killer. There isn't much to say about him that hasn't already been said. Despite my love for this mon, he's frankly bullshit and can lead to many undeserved wins. Lots of my friends have said things along the lines of "if there is a palafin, there is a way", which I have to reluctantly admit is true. Palafins Hero form has a crazy attack stat, respectable bulk and a good defensive typing, but to reach this form you must bring in his wimp form, once... Yeah, I don't know why this is considered a detriment to the pokemon by some. This is quite literally the easiest ability condition to fulfill of all time. Regular Palafin isn't even too bad, I've used it to revenge kill and win games several times. The Bulk Up set can find its way around the majority of teams that lack a dondozo. There's very little counter-play around Palafin unless you're bringing something with terra grass or water, which sucks because you don't want to be forced to be committed to a singular terra option every game. Not to mention, Palafin can also use terra into something like a steel type which lets it beat amoonguss or take a freeze dry from Bundle. I actually stopped spamming him because he's just too easy to win with lol. Being the strongest revenge killer in the tier while having tools to get rid of his defensive counterplay, its pretty obvious why hes next on the chopping block alongside bundle.
SHED TAIL AND GRIMMSNARL
I'm clumping these two together as they kind of work in tandem with being obnoxious, and you'll most likely see them on teams together. Grimmsnarls new addition to its movepool in parting shot has turned it from a mediocre passive screen setter into an incredibly good one. Alongside the current lack defoggers, screens are basically always staying up. When you combine it with parting shot, you further weaken your opponent's moves, making it way safer to get Cyclizar in. Then you shed tail out into one of your strong guys and you basically get free turns of chip or set up at basically no cost. There's a chance your sub doesn't even get broken for multiple turns depending on which mon you shed-tailed into. While Shed Tail is low on the radar, but still up there, I stand firm on the fact that its an inherently stupid move that gives too much opportunity for little cost. I find screens something that could also be a problem further down the line after some bans due to the lack of defog and how good grimmsnarl, so I suggest being open to the idea of a potential light clay ban.
HONORABLE MENTION
Booster Energy is something that we should definitely keep our eye on but its the lowest of low on the list of priorities. I'd really prefer keeping it in the metagame as it's mostly the defining factor in a good handful of the paradox mons viability but I'd be kidding myself if I were to say it doesn't make the paradox mons standouts on offense. Being able to get a free boost once a game on offense really isn't that big of a deal and can typically really helps while trying to make progress and snowball. After we address all the problems I listed before and some of the ones I left out, and offense teams continue to be an issue and the paradox mons are clearly dominant on these archetypes then its only fair to give it a look.
Overall I feel offense and in particular, spike-stacking variants, are way too dominant in the current metagame. Games tend to feel incredibly samey and typically tend to be won by match up or who terra'd better which is not ideal if our goal is to create a competitive format. I feel neutering offense should also be something the council considers when making future tiering decisions as I feel that would be the best direction in creating a competitive tier that promotes diverse archetypes and these are some steps I'd personally take.
Gholdengo seems to be sneaking under the nose of everyone when I think it's directly more detrimental to the metagame than more blatant broken Pokemon like Palaphin and Iron Bundle. I think everyone has started to realize that there's genuinely no reason to not lead a hazard setter (doesn't have to be Glimmora although that's the obvious choice for hyper offense teams) such as Glimmora, Garchomp, or Ting-Lu and just getting them all up. Almost every game I play at ~1700's, the first 4 turns of the game from both sides are Stealth Rock and 3 Spikes, because there's nothing you can do to remove them so you might as well get your own up, then praying your Spikes abusers are better than the opponent's. This wouldn't be so much of an issue if Gholdengo was just an Ability, and served no other purpose, but Gholdengo itself is a massive pain in the ass for defensive teams not featuring a max SDef Ting-Lu and even that loses to Nasty Plot Focus Blast. Gholdengo has insane set variety, Nasty Plot shreds through defensive teams and can Sub or Recover to help even more. Choice Scarf lets Gholdengo reliably revenge the whole tier because its strong as hell and fast and bulky with flawless coverage. Gholdengo has been at around top 3 in usage since game release and I really don't see it leaving because Gholdengo Spikes Stack has no real counterplay other than using it yourself or having 6 Pokemon with Boots. If you're going to argue otherwise don't bother bc I'm not changing my mind :)
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Everyone is saying Gholdengo is a problem because it blocks Defog, but I doubt banning it would change much—there are exactly two Defoggers worth using. The bigger problem is blocking Rapid Spin, which any Ghost-type can do. Perhaps we should entertain the idea of a ban of Spikes? Its distribution did get problematically large this gen and it’s one of the most important single moves in the meta right now.
One of those defoggers worth using is corv, an extremely splashable mainstay of anti-hazards. The fact that gholdengo can block it by switching in is... not great.
Idk if banning 1 mon so another can be viable is really the way to go either... if corv is the only defogger worth using removing gholdengo doesn't really diversify hazard removal.
If anything the whole necessity to run gholdengo, HDB, and defog makes hazards look like the problem... I think it'd settle down if the meta wasnt as offensive with tera where taking any kind of chip damage could be a death sentence.
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