Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I find Dnite to be broken.

It's one of the few mons that can wall without tera, one of the best defensive mons.

And then you dont know if it has an offensive set like extreme speed EQ dance roost with tera normal,
+1 atk
+2 priority 80 base power extreme speed with STAB + tera boost

Ontop of having multiscale.

GG Dnite walls and kills everything.
 
I find Dnite to be broken.

It's one of the few mons that can wall without tera, one of the best defensive mons.

And then you dont know if it has an offensive set like extreme speed EQ dance roost with tera normal,
+1 atk
+2 priority 80 base power extreme speed with STAB + tera boost

Ontop of having multiscale.

GG Dnite walls and kills everything.
If only there was a mon that could ignore all his set-ups, tank an earthquake (47% damage without Tera) and burn him.
1670096612383128.png

Jokes apart, I never considered Dragonite to be broken until I came in this forum, and it's all thanks to Crocoboy!
If you really hate dragonite, try Skeledirge out! And added bonus is that you also counter Iron Valliant, Roaring Moon (if you have Water/Fairy Tera) and Iron Moth/Volcarona!

Sledirge
when hunting dragons and mechas is an urge.
 
Brilliant detective work confirming the 100/130/90 mon is bulky

But seriously, Garganacl’s pretty based. Massive bulk + status immunity + Ghost resist + Tera + unique move that deals turnly damage + IronPress + recovery + L + ratio = the only good defensive Rock-type. You can also run a silly Tera Ghost Curse set if you really hate Dondozo and want to see it take 50% per turn from Curse and Salt Cure.
Finally a bulky Rock type that can function as intended.
 

Perish Song

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Brilliant detective work confirming the 100/130/90 mon is bulky

But seriously, Garganacl’s pretty based. Massive bulk + status immunity + Ghost resist + Tera + unique move that deals turnly damage + IronPress + recovery + L + ratio = the only good defensive Rock-type. You can also run a silly Tera Ghost Curse set if you really hate Dondozo and want to see it take 50% per turn from Curse and Salt Cure.
Worth pointing out all these qualities are held together with tera. Remove the spammed Fairy/Water (basically any efficient mono defensive typing) and this thing suddenly gets abused by quite a lot of Pokemon. Rock is a terrible defensive typing and its debatable if every other quality this thing has will have relevancy in OU if Tera ever gets banned.
 
I like using Tera Ghost for Garganacl due to his resistance to Ghost and the two immunities come in handy. Lots of Dark types currently, but their strong body press can pressure them
 
Does anybody run defog on Scizor? dont lie to me, I know nobody does, mainly because Scizor has better things to be doing, for example LO +2 Tera steel tecnician stab Bullet Punch, he also lost Scorching sands which would have been perfect for this, but at least has Night Slash
Technician boosted Thief chunks Gholdengo decently, but the MU is still a terrible one with Scizor losing access to Roost. Defog Scizor helps a lot against Grimmsnarl screens, though you're probably better off running a set that can just KO Grimm...

:Talonflame: the biggest meme of them all, I hate this meme, but Gale Wings defog + fire stab is good, is literally the third best deffoger
As someone else said, Flame Body is the call on Defog TFlame. Burn fishing is a major part of what it does outside of the Gholdengo mu. Its biggest problem right now is that it's Cyclizar bait, since you can't afford to run BB. I intentionally underspeed Cyclizar so I can U-turn into something with a hope of dealing with whatever it's passing to, but that's no guarantee of not getting wrecked on the spot.
 
the Speed Boost Ostrich literally feels like it's 2011 and I'm staring down Lead Ninjask on Full Baton Pass

can't wait for Tera to be dealt with so we can start getting rid of these other problematic mons like "click rage fist xd" and "click calm mind + speed boost and Just Sweep XD with a psychic STAB that"gets infinitely stronger while ignoring Unaware users"


this thing makes Spectrier look balanced
 
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the Speed Boost Ostrich literally feels like it's 2011 and I'm staring down Lead Ninjask on Full Baton Pass

can't wait for Tera to be dealt with so we can start getting rid of these other problematic mons like "click rage fist xd" and "click calm mind + speed boost and Just Sweep XD with a STAB that"gets infinitely stronger while ignoring Unaware users"
Speed Ostroch is very manageable, and if you don’t make your opponent feel like he wasted a slot in his team with her, you are doing something wrong. Just Gholdengo who is everywhere checks her hard, not even talking about the sheer amount of great priority in the meta, the Dark Ground bulky mon, toxic spikes, etc.

And Annihilape has clear flaws you can play around. You just need to have a 91+ sd specs choice anything, and now Annihilape becomes completely useless too.

Stop blaming Tera and adapt. If you don't like strong options that you have to play around during the whole match and incorporate counterplay in your initial gameplan, then you might want to stop playing Pokemon.
 
Speed Ostroch is very manageable, and if you don’t make your opponent feel like he wasted a slot in his team with her, you are doing something wrong. Just Gholdengo who is everywhere checks her hard, not even talking about the sheer amount of great priority in the meta, the Dark Ground bulky mon, toxic spikes, etc.

And Annihilape has clear flaws you can play around. You just need to have a 91+ sd specs choice anything, and now Annihilape becomes completely useless too.

Stop blaming Tera and adapt. If you don't like strong options that you have to play around during the whole match and incorporate counterplay in your initial gameplan, then you might want to stop playing Pokemon.
Espathra is by no means a "wasted slot" on anyone's teams. Speed Boost + Stored Power in a meta where support like dual screens, Shed Tail, and - yes, to a lesser extent - Tera are running rampant and readily available make it one of the most easy-to-use and frankly braindead Pokemon ever. You mention how priority can deal with Espathra, and while sure it's very physically frail and weak to Sucker Punch, it almost always runs Tera Fairy or Fighting to nullify this flaw. Not to mention before you can even effectively check it with priority you would need to a) break the sub it's almost certainly hiding behind and b) bypass or wait out the screens she's almost definitely hiding behind. And yeah, while Gholdengo kinda works, it only works before Stored Power's BP really starts to snowball, and in make cases it won't be able to position itself before Espathra already grabs a CM boost given the nature of Shed Tail.

Now personally, I'm not in favor of tiering action regarding Espathra until Shed Tail and Screens are dealt with, but to say that people need to "jUsT aDaPt" or quit Pokemon because they don't enjoy the presence of "sTrOnG oPtIoNs" behind a sub and dual screens that can very well win games on the spot is absolutely fucking horseshit.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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I find Dnite to be broken.

It's one of the few mons that can wall without tera, one of the best defensive mons.

And then you dont know if it has an offensive set like extreme speed EQ dance roost with tera normal,
+1 atk
+2 priority 80 base power extreme speed with STAB + tera boost

Ontop of having multiscale.

GG Dnite walls and kills everything.
Dragonite is very good, but it's not broken. In combo with Heavy-Duty Boots and getting a Shed Tail from Cyclizar (Multiscale still intact) it becomes hard tactic to beat. Dragonite by itself is not broken. What makes this whole tactic broken is Shed Tail, it in combo with Multiscale (Under full health) since it is fantastic ability especially behind a substitute.
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
The fact that we’re even discussing Night Slash Cryogonal as an option in any capacity ever means that something is deeply wrong.
to be fair, it was 2 AM when i was writing this and I was tired, I corrected the post a bit to reflect this, and to be honest, i just posted the matchups straight up, my overall opinion about gholdengo is that yes its beatable, yes, he should not be banned, but holy fuck he is frustrating to fight
 
Espathra is by no means a "wasted slot" on anyone's teams. Speed Boost + Stored Power in a meta where support like dual screens, Shed Tail, and - yes, to a lesser extent - Tera are running rampant and readily available make it one of the most easy-to-use and frankly braindead Pokemon ever. You mention how priority can deal with Espathra, and while sure it's very physically frail and weak to Sucker Punch, it almost always runs Tera Fairy or Fighting to nullify this flaw. Not to mention before you can even effectively check it with priority you would need to a) break the sub it's almost certainly hiding behind and b) bypass or wait out the screens she's almost definitely hiding behind. And yeah, while Gholdengo kinda works, it only works before Stored Power's BP really starts to snowball, and in make cases it won't be able to position itself before Espathra already grabs a CM boost given the nature of Shed Tail.

Now personally, I'm not in favor of tiering action regarding Espathra until Shed Tail and Screens are dealt with, but to say that people need to "jUsT aDaPt" or quit Pokemon because they don't enjoy the presence of "sTrOnG oPtIoNs" behind a sub and dual screens that can very well win games on the spot is absolutely fucking horseshit.
If you add Screens and Shed Tail, you're not considering Espesthra in a vacuum anymore AND my point was about Tera anyways.

Also if you consider Screens and Shed Tail, you should extend the conversation to not just "what pokemons can deal with Espethra?" and more "what gameplan can deal with Espethra?".
Basically not talking from purely a re-active point of view and more of a pro-active one.

From this perspective, Espethra is not that great compared to other mons as it needs many turns to set up effecticely while other threats can start pressuring the opponent in one round.
SD Chien-Pao, Skemedirge, Dragonite, CM Booster Iron Valiant, even Toxic Spike + Poison jab Clodsire, Nastly Pot Gholdengo...
While your opponent is setting up his screens/shed tail, if you are being pro-active, Espethra is useless as a switch in cause she won't be able to deal with what you have set up already.

And I agree, maybe Shad Tail Espethra is too stronf of an option and should be banned.
But
1. There are a lot of answers still.
2. In my post I was considering Espethra in a vaccuum as the previous poster only was referring to Tera being stupid.
3. You don't need to be so unpolite when making a point.
 
to be fair, it was 2 AM when i was writing this and I was tired, I corrected the post a bit to reflect this, and to be honest, i just posted the matchups straight up, my overall opinion about gholdengo is that yes its beatable, yes, he should not be banned, but holy fuck he is frustrating to fight
Even without the defog/rapid spin conv, I feel like he single handly destroys stall.
Don't know how smogon deals with pokemons that invalidate an entire playstyle by themselves.
Is there a historical precedent to this?
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Even without the defog/rapid spin conv, I feel like he single handly destroys stall.
Don't know how smogon deals with pokemons that invalidate an entire playstyle by themselves.
Is there a historical precedent to this?
Yes there is, a lot, but in my opinion, Gholdengo also helps stall alot by making it easier to soft opponents alongside all the chip damage they pack + he is a good scarfer, meaning he can help with the cleaning
 
It seems to mostly sit on its hands and attempt to come to a decision about Terastal instead.
I find it very funny that there's now people complaining about the council doing nothing, when not even a week ago we had people pissed off at the council refusing to give time for the tier to develop after dropping multiple quickbans.

I wouldn't be bothered by an Espartha quickban regardless of what happens to tera, but it feels a bit dishonest to say that the council's been doing nothing.

E: Oh you're talking about Gholdengo. The idea of quickbanning that before anything else is taken care of is frankly laughable
 
If you add Screens and Shed Tail, you're not considering Espesthra in a vacuum anymore
Why would you be considering it in a vacuum in the first place? This isn’t 1v1. Support tools exist and absolutely should be considered when evaluating a mon’s viability. Gholdengo wouldn’t be half as good if there were no hazard setters in the tier, since it can’t set them itself, but that’s a nonsense argument because mons like Garchomp and Glimmora are literally right there.
 
I find it very funny that there's now people complaining about the council doing nothing, when not even a week ago we had people pissed off at the council refusing to give time for the tier to develop after dropping multiple quickbans.

I wouldn't be bothered by an Espartha quickban regardless of what happens to tera, but it feels a bit dishonest to say that the council's been doing nothing.

E: Oh you're talking about Gholdengo. The idea of quickbanning that before anything else being taken care of is frankly laughable
Different people with different opinions for different contexts.
I was really happy for how ruthlessly the quick bans were shot.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I wouldn't be bothered by an Espartha quickban regardless of what happens to tera, but it feels a bit dishonest to say that the council's been doing nothing.
Not nothing, but also not what we desperately need it to be doing right now. Shed Tail should not have survived this long and I have genuine concerns about the future of competitive Pokémon if the Council can’t even agree on that.
Oh you're talking about Gholdengo.
I’m talking about all of it. Something needs to go and at this point I don’t care what, just get me out of this hazard-stacking screen-setting tail-shedding ostrich-boosting revival-blessing bead-ruining hyper-offense hell. It’s like we’re in a Jigsaw trap with the walls slowly closing in except there’s like twelve exits with the doors wide open and we’re sitting there arguing which of them to go out of.
 
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Why would you be considering it in a vacuum in the first place?
Because then Espethra and especially Tera would have nothing to do with the actual problem the poster was complaining about.
The poster stated he wanted Tera banned, without ever mentionning Shed Tail and Screens.

And if he would have mentionned them, Espethra and Anihillape aren't the most obnoxious abusers of these strats.
And again, it would have nothing to do with Tera.
 
Not nothing, but also not what we desperately need it to be doing right now. Shed Tail should not have survived this long and I have genuine concerns about the future of competitive Pokémon if the Council can’t even agree on that.
Cousin, Smogon has been going strong for 18 years, and it's only gotten more proactive in that time. Competitive Pokemon isn't going anywhere. Calm the fuck down.
 
Okay, I haven't even attempted to make a "serious" team yet, since the meta is a madhouse and is probably going to take another month or two to really settle down between bans, people moving past new toy syndrome to settle on what actually works, and whatever decision is made with Tera. I've been exclusively laddering on my meme account, mostly testing out second tier mons and off-meta sets and sticking in the high 1400s across a bunch of styles. So, here are a bunch of thoughts from a truly mediocre player:

Gholdengo/Glimmora cores rarely seem as effective in practice as they do on paper. Glimmora just isn't that great at setting up hazards beyond TSpikes, and even then, the activation order with toxic debris rapid spin really hurts it. I honestly think Rocky Helmet Endure Glimmora is a decent set to create more opportunities later in the match to get up multiple layers of Tspikes while possibly messing with Rapid Spinners. But, really, that's mostly a good reminder that Garchomp might be the best hazard setter in the tier. Vastly bulkier, and that helmet+rough skin chip adds up quick and functionally blocks spins from weakened `mons. Clodsire and even Gastrodon are pretty fire, too, for more defensively minded teams. Gastro getting spikes and rocks is legit huge.

As for Gholdengo in particular, its defog immunity is really just icing on the cake, since using it to protect hazards just invites it to die to knock -> EQ from either new Donphan form. The overall status immunity, and the fact that it includes things like taunt, disable, and leech seed, is huge. I get the appeal of Scarf sets, but bulky Air Balloon has my heart when I stoop to using it.

Iron Moth is definitely best run with Agility but then it has severe 4MSS. It also wishes it could run Boots and LO at the same time, but if it gets lucky with a Fiery Dance boost or two, watch out.
Solid post, big ups. I'm only gonna comment on the quoted sections (Chomp hazard lead, Gholdengo, & Agility Iron Moth), as they're the only ones I feel as though I have enough experience with to provide anything of merit.

I've been using a lot of lead Garchomp instead of Glimmora on the typical Goldie+Spikes HO, with this set. The spread is simply Atk investment to OHKO 4Def Gholdengo, rest in HP, 4Def, and max Spe for obvious reasons. The advantages over Glimmora are more than one might initially expect, as not only does the bulk go a long way in ensuring you get multiple Spikes up, it also offers some nice defensive utility for HO, whilst allowing Chomp in many match-ups to set hazards repeatedly, either to reset them should the opponent play well enough to get them off, or to get up an addition Spike later on in the match.

Futhermore, Dragon Tail on a dual Hazards lead, especially one like Garchomp, is an incredible move. Though the obvious meme of setting your own Rocks AND Spikes AND phazing (shout out the Ting) is tremendously strong, it also proves itself invaluable in the current setup-ho & stall festered metagame - providing recourse against the many offensive threats that frail teams (such as your own) fear, & invaluable chip against the other extremely defensive types. The great attacks don't stop there, though. Earthquake in this meta, especially offensively-inclined Garchomp's Earthquake, is very strong, due to the sparsity of top-tier Ground immunities/resistancies. Even the sturdiest, Corviknight, you can always keep rocks up vs as a minimum, and then phase them later or get an addition Spike.

=====

Gholdengo, in my opinion, is overcentralising, and potentially "broken", in the traditional sense of "overwhelmingly strong in comparison to its peers". In defence of this claim, I will examine three things that I believe illustrate this,
1. The general structure of the meta-suitable builds.
2. The lack of universal, reliable, viable, means of handling Gholdengo, that do not destabalise the metagame further by compromising other crucial matchups.
3. It's usage rate, which is currently ranking it at the #1 spot of OU.

(1): We see a high degree of homogeneity within the current metagame, by this I mean the presence of either hazards/screens HO paired with Gholdengo, stall attempting to counter this (and largely failing, thanks to Gholdengo), or some mid-point bulky offence with their own Spikes, also often featuring Gholdengo
(2): Gholdengo, ability notwithstanding, is an incredibly strong Pokemon. I won't go over the stuff everyone knows, such as great typing, stabs, power etc., but I will say that its main two sets, Scarf+Trick+Plot/Focus Blast, Balloon+Plot+Recover/Focus Blast, are effectively uncounterable without an overcommital of resources for the matchup, or by using more generally unviable techs. The former set makes it excellent vs offensive threats & defensive ones, the latter performing more reliably as a spin blocker & crushing defensive structures.
(3) Usage rate alone, does not indicate whether or not a Pokemon or element centralises the meta to an unreasonable or even unhealthy degree. Historical examples of high-usage, non-problematic are GSC Snorlax, or any recent meta with regards to Landorus-T. I believe the case of Gholdengo is different, when the (1) & (2) are taken into account. Gholdengo, in my eyes, sets the stage, pace, & general structure of viable builds in the metagame, in an unhealthy manner. Gholdengo is the lynchpin (as is Tera, though to a lesser extent) of pretty much all of the problematic builds we see in the meta, as they simply cannot be anywhere near as functional without Gholdengo.

Not to say it should be priority #1, Gholdengo, in the sake of seeking a competitive, stable, & balanced meta is an influence I believe must be excised from the OU metagame, with as much haste as possible.

=====
Iron Moth is a really interesting & fun mon, that I consider to be quite strong. I think you're correct in asserting that 3 attacks Agility is its best set, though I would suggest that it is best utilised with this set, on a strict HO team. Life Orb is a means of hampering yourself, as Booster Energy does the same thing without the loss of bulk, and Boots forgoes the heavy offensive pressure that Proto-boosted Iron Moth applies. Grass is currently standard as a Tera type for Iron Moth, though I think there is significant justification to use Psychic on many (if not most) teams, due to the omnipresence of Clodsire - depends on the team, really. God help those facing a +1 SpA, +2 Spe, Proto-boosted Iron Moth.

=====

Here is a team for anyone reading to use & get a sense of the things I covered in this post. DD Acro Roaring Moon is better than Iron Valiant in this slot, so use that if you prefer to. Have fun.​
 
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Nah he‘s got a point if we’re being real. I can understand council wanting to focus on handling Tera right now, but I do legitimately think there are some strategies and tools that need to be looked at, completely independent of what happens to Tera. Stuff like Shed Tail and Gholdengo may benefit from Tera, but they’re still problematic regardless. Would it be possible to look at them in some capacity before a conclusion on Tera is reached? cyclizar quickban real yes yes
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Thanks for dismissing my concerns and making fun of my mental health. It really makes me feel like an accepted part of the community.
This is the point where you go insane and start doing things like 52 atack Gunk shot pex, Scarf Mach Punch, Lando T on stall, and think about plays too much and ending getting 6-0 by a Tera grass Sandy Shocks

also i was looking at Defog/spinners that are unreleased like hisui forms and all that, and the only one from the bunch that can do anything against Dengo is Giratina, but Giratina will not be OU ever, so yeah,
post explaining rapid spinners and deffogers availables
This is all we have for now, and now, if you excuse me, im gonna make oricorio OU
 
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