Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #5886 — mechanics update ]

Éric

rn hate club
is a Pre-Contributor
in a game where (quite frankly) there are a lot of Pokemon you see way too often, more variety seems like it'd be more important.
variety is (most of the times good), but more pokemon available absolutely does not mean more variety in any way shape or form. look at idk adv ou, which is a way more diverse metagame than most of the metagames afterwards, which do have many more mons available. take sm on the other hand, where there are way more mons viable than in most of the other metagames, and many people think (or thought) that it was a bad metagame because of that very reason. also, variety doesnt only come in the form of more mons, sometimes (most of the times actually) it comes in the form of different sets for each mons or different team archetypes, which means variety in the way you use the same mons. and thats not a bad thing, quite the opposite in fact.
and yes, obviously dracovish is not broken without the move, but neither is arctovish even with it, so the problem is clearly dracovish as a pokemon. same w the other ones, some which i already explained in taht post
 
and yes, obviously dracovish is not broken without the move, but neither is arctovish even with it, so the problem is clearly dracovish as a pokemon. same w the other ones, some which i already explained in taht post
I mean yeah, I understand that that's the reasoning we base decisions on, I just don't agree with it.
 
I have yet to see a good scream tail set, yall have any good sets?View attachment 469649View attachment 469650
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Dazzling Gleam
- Boomburst
- Calm Mind

I tun this set along with annhialape, lets the ape live longer and calm mind lets set up on mons thinking its going to be more passive, honestly id run sylveon more over this since it does the exact same thing but also gets stab on the move that beats cyclizar shenanigans without needing to tera
 
I have yet to see a good scream tail set, yall have any good sets?View attachment 469649View attachment 469650
I generally run

Item: Heavy-Duty Boots/Eject Button/Babiri Berry/can be anything really
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock/Encore

It's an amazing utility mon. If you already have a Rocks setter, Encore can really mess with certain defensive pokemon.
 

Lily

thread the needle
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UU Leader
I know this is gonna get eyerolls but hear me out.

:ss/floatzel:
This mon is actually pretty good.

So it's pretty clear right now that the metagame is very offensive. In order to combat that a bit, I wanted to mess around with rain; I made a few variants and discovered rain is quite difficult to build rn since you're kinda fucked if you lose a key piece to a strong Tera user. I didn't really like using Barraskewda - w/o Flip Turn it just wasn't hitting hard enough unless I burnt my Tera on it, and even then stuff like Roaring Moon still created awkward 50/50s. When scrolling through the list of Swift Swim users to find a replacement, I came across Floatzel.

Statistically it's just a worse Barraskewda, no doubt about that - but what really separates it is Wave Crash.

Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation

I've been running this with Water as my Tera type and holy moly it's so good. The amount of games I've swept with Floatzel has been honestly insane, it's really threatening vs a lot of teams. Water Tera Wave Crash in rain is such a silly move that you can perform hilarious feats like the following:

OHKOing Roaring Moon: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Rain: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
OHKOing Corviknight: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
OHKOing pretty much every offensive mon: you get it

Now obviously you're not gonna wanna click this move all the time, but the point is there; it's really good at cleaning up weakened teams with Liquidation, so the recoil is not all that big a deal either. Here are a few games I got that really demonstrate how good Floatzel can be.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725907395
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725912943 (it kills all 6 lol)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1726618367 (it kills all 6 again)

I think it's better than Barraskewda solely off the sheer power of Wave Crash and think it deserves a bit more experimentation than the mediocre team I made. Would love to see what others can come up with!

Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 176 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Taunt

got smashed by him on ladder. unironically better than palafin lol
 
I know this is gonna get eyerolls but hear me out.

:ss/floatzel:
This mon is actually pretty good.

So it's pretty clear right now that the metagame is very offensive. In order to combat that a bit, I wanted to mess around with rain; I made a few variants and discovered rain is quite difficult to build rn since you're kinda fucked if you lose a key piece to a strong Tera user. I didn't really like using Barraskewda - w/o Flip Turn it just wasn't hitting hard enough unless I burnt my Tera on it, and even then stuff like Roaring Moon still created awkward 50/50s. When scrolling through the list of Swift Swim users to find a replacement, I came across Floatzel.

Statistically it's just a worse Barraskewda, no doubt about that - but what really separates it is Wave Crash.

Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation

I've been running this with Water as my Tera type and holy moly it's so good. The amount of games I've swept with Floatzel has been honestly insane, it's really threatening vs a lot of teams. Water Tera Wave Crash in rain is such a silly move that you can perform hilarious feats like the following:

OHKOing Roaring Moon: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Rain: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
OHKOing Corviknight: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
OHKOing pretty much every offensive mon: you get it

Now obviously you're not gonna wanna click this move all the time, but the point is there; it's really good at cleaning up weakened teams with Liquidation, so the recoil is not all that big a deal either. Here are a few games I got that really demonstrate how good Floatzel can be.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725907395
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725912943 (it kills all 6 lol)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1726618367 (it kills all 6 again)

I think it's better than Barraskewda solely off the sheer power of Wave Crash and think it deserves a bit more experimentation than the mediocre team I made. Would love to see what others can come up with!

Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 176 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Taunt

got smashed by him on ladder. unironically better than palafin lol
Oh this is beautiful!!!! I love Floatzel and I'm so happy you made it work! I gotta try this team out when I can.
 
Has anyone tried using Slither Wing as a bad Buzzswole to counter stuff like Kinggambit, Ancient Donphan, Scizor, Breloom, Dark Ancient Mence, and other generically good Dark/Fighting/Ground types? It's got a really nice support movepool like Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, Whirlwind, Stun Spore, and Leech Life.

Something like:

Slither Wing @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Tera Type: Steel
Impish Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Close Combat
- Leech Life / U-turn / First Impression

I'm bad and I don't have any high-level replays but I really like how deep this thing's movepool is.
 
Has anyone tried using Slither Wing as a bad Buzzswole to counter stuff like Kinggambit, Ancient Donphan, Scizor, Breloom, Dark Ancient Mence, and other generically good Dark/Fighting/Ground types? It's got a really nice support movepool like Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, Whirlwind, Stun Spore, and Leech Life.

Something like:

Slither Wing @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Tera Type: Steel
Impish Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Close Combat
- Leech Life / U-turn / First Impression

I'm bad and I don't have any high-level replays but I really like how deep this thing's movepool is.
Slither wing feels like a strong mon thats really underated rn but will eventually thrive, has a few noticible weaknesses tho, mainly corviknight, Iron Valiant and Chi-Yu running around everywhere
 

Flapple @ Clear Amulet / Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Dragon / Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Grav Apple
- Sucker Punch / Tera Blast
- Trailblaze / Dragon Dance

Flapple was in ZU in Gen 8, let see how well Flapple does in Gen 9?

Trailblaze helps patch up Flapple's mediocre speed while also dealing damage, while Tera Blast combined with a certain Tera Type such as Steel or Fire can take out Ice Types.
Clear Amulet prevents stat drops from Intimidate, Sticky Web and more. Life Orb Increases Flapple's power further.
 
3) :sv/annihilape:
I think this guy is just a bit too strong for the meta. It's like Palafin but slightly slower but with a move that can reach 300 BP??? I'm not so sure we need moves like that in the meta. Rage Fist is also available on Primeape though, so not sure if a weird eviolite Primeape set w/ Rage Fist could also be effective - if so then maybe just look into banning Rage Fist instead of Annihilape and it's surely fine. But if not, then just ban Annihilape, can't have stuff like this in the meta.
Every multi-strike hit increases Rage Fist's power and Switching out or fainting will not reset the hit counter, that means if Annihilape is revived by Revival Blessing, it will keep the Rage Fist Power where it was before.
 
Every multi-strike hit increases Rage Fist's power and Switching out or fainting will not reset the hit counter, that means if Annihilape is revived by Revival Blessing, it will keep the Rage Fist Power where it was before.
To be fair there's barely a chance that Revival Blessing is going to stay around much once it works in the simulator, at least in my opinion.
 
Me: hahah, i can't wait to get rid of these hazards
Gholdengo and BKC:
really.jpg
I gotta make better teams and better plays lol
 
I know this is gonna get eyerolls but hear me out.

:ss/floatzel:
This mon is actually pretty good.

So it's pretty clear right now that the metagame is very offensive. In order to combat that a bit, I wanted to mess around with rain; I made a few variants and discovered rain is quite difficult to build rn since you're kinda fucked if you lose a key piece to a strong Tera user. I didn't really like using Barraskewda - w/o Flip Turn it just wasn't hitting hard enough unless I burnt my Tera on it, and even then stuff like Roaring Moon still created awkward 50/50s. When scrolling through the list of Swift Swim users to find a replacement, I came across Floatzel.

Statistically it's just a worse Barraskewda, no doubt about that - but what really separates it is Wave Crash.

Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation

I've been running this with Water as my Tera type and holy moly it's so good. The amount of games I've swept with Floatzel has been honestly insane, it's really threatening vs a lot of teams. Water Tera Wave Crash in rain is such a silly move that you can perform hilarious feats like the following:

OHKOing Roaring Moon: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Rain: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
OHKOing Corviknight: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
OHKOing pretty much every offensive mon: you get it

Now obviously you're not gonna wanna click this move all the time, but the point is there; it's really good at cleaning up weakened teams with Liquidation, so the recoil is not all that big a deal either. Here are a few games I got that really demonstrate how good Floatzel can be.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725907395
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725912943 (it kills all 6 lol)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1726618367 (it kills all 6 again)

I think it's better than Barraskewda solely off the sheer power of Wave Crash and think it deserves a bit more experimentation than the mediocre team I made. Would love to see what others can come up with!

Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 176 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Taunt

got smashed by him on ladder. unironically better than palafin lol
My lord that damage is kinda crazy, proving once again why Dondozo is the best because I don't see much else switching into that besides like Toxapex I guess.
Always nice to see a (traditionally) lower-tier mon pop off.
 
Been experimenting with Hatterene by going solo trick room "sweeper".
hatterene.png
Hatterene @ Expert Belt
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Psyshock
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
My idea was to bypass Hatterene's passivity by going for Trick Room on the switches she often forces. It sorta works so I feel like I'm onto something but maybe I should go all out on power by going for Dazzling Gleam instead of Draining Kiss. Expert Belt was mainly used because I wanted some longevity. Again though, maybe just focusing on power alone could work.
Testing her a little, she did manage to sweep a team with hazard support. And she's good at picking up unsuspecting KOs, like Gholdengo thinking it can switch on a resisted move and getting blasted by Mystical Fire. But I do feel the lack of power. Teambuilding sure is hard this gen with all these threats.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
When will the revival blessing be implemented in smogon?
Hopefully never. That move doesn’t belong anywhere near competitive Pokémon.
Clear Amulet prevents stat drops from Intimidate, Sticky Web and more.
Clear Amulet is the perfect item for people who really hate Masquerain in particular, but I don’t think it really works as a general item on Flapple. There are three Sticky Web setters and none of them are even close to being close to good, and none of the Intimidate users are really showing up in the meta right now. The only real use for it is against Parting Shot Grimmsnarl, and Flapple is not the mon you want in against that guy.
 
In your experiences, do you think that Revival Blessing is actually any good? Im trying to build a complete gimmick set for Rabsca so i went with a Focus Sash(pray there are no hazards) and Memento to say screw you to the opponent and die for it. It's also cripplingly slow so I need survivability so I invested in Def and HP, it already has a good SpDef of 115. Gave it a modest nature because i have no use for attack and i dunno what to do with the last two move slots. It doesnt learn any support moves, which sucks, but I could have a sideline of special attacker. I dunno what to do
 
While I whole-heartedly agree Chi-Yu needs to go, I feel Dracovish is a bit of an extreme comparison.
  • Hazards can wear it out over time (non hdb)
  • Priority moves / outspeeding combined with its pitiful bulk can kill it
  • BAXCALIBUR
  • Checks previously mentioned (ttar, dondozo)
Thermal Exchange Baxcalibur can bait a Fire-type move, switch in, get the +1 atk, and then kill.

DEFENSIVE CALCS:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 99-117 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 60-72 (27 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 45-54 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 84-99 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 67-81 (30.1 - 36.4%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 132-156 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin in Sun: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (!!)



OFFENSIVE CALCS:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 328-387 (252.3 - 297.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 272-322 (209.2 - 247.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 73-86 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 116-137 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 54-65 (41.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Please tell me if I'm wrong on any of this, I am still a relatively new player.
These calcs seem very wrong.

Here is what the showdown calcs are telling me:

252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 313-370 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I can't take it anymore. Cyclizar sucks. It's just so obnoxious to play around. The worst part is it doesn't even need to hit shed tail to force switches if your current pokemon can't threaten a dragonite sub, and can just switch out or fast u-turn to gain a bunch of health back. I'm not an amazing player but meta honestly feels almost unplayable right now if you're not interested in mashing hyper offence. Anyone had any lucky with slower teams?
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
In your experiences, do you think that Revival Blessing is actually any good? Im trying to build a complete gimmick set for Rabsca so i went with a Focus Sash(pray there are no hazards) and Memento to say screw you to the opponent and die for it. It's also cripplingly slow so I need survivability so I invested in Def and HP, it already has a good SpDef of 115. Gave it a modest nature because i have no use for attack and i dunno what to do with the last two move slots. It doesnt learn any support moves, which sucks, but I could have a sideline of special attacker. I dunno what to do
If you’re going gimmicky, might as well go full BS and run Skill Swap or some similar nonsense.
 
While I whole-heartedly agree Chi-Yu needs to go, I feel Dracovish is a bit of an extreme comparison.
  • Hazards can wear it out over time (non hdb)
  • Priority moves / outspeeding combined with its pitiful bulk can kill it
  • BAXCALIBUR
  • Checks previously mentioned (ttar, dondozo)
Thermal Exchange Baxcalibur can bait a Fire-type move, switch in, get the +1 atk, and then kill.

DEFENSIVE CALCS:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 99-117 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 60-72 (27 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 45-54 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 84-99 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 67-81 (30.1 - 36.4%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 132-156 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin in Sun: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (!!)
You know what can stop Chi-Yu? it's Dachsbun, it can switch in a Fire Blast or Flamethrower and get a +2 defense Boost as a freebie. resists Dark Pulse.

Defensive damage calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dachsbun affected by Beads of Ruin 122-144 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dachsbun affected by Beads of Ruin 183-216 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Chi-Yu decides to run a Tera Steel type, Dachsbun will be OHKOed by Steel Tera Blast.

Offensive damage calcs

+2 4 Def Dachsbun Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 314-370 (124.6 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Dachsbun STAB Ground Tera Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 252-296 (100 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Chi-Yu gets outspeed by a Jolly Pawmot and it gets annihilated by a single Close Combat, or a Choice Band Iron Fist Mach Punch.

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pawmot Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 260-308 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
+1 252+ SpA Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dachsbun: 123-144 (38.6 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Manually adding in Beads of Ruin adjustment. I was looking at this a few days ago. You could opt to run boots as well. Gets Wish to heal itself. Unfortunately this is about all it does. The other special in the tier sort of rip through you like Gholdengo, Dragapult and Iron Valiant. I guess it could maybe somehow have a set that beats Volcarona but it's just too passive and realistically is only covering one mon (and still loses to specs tera blast or specs dark tera)
 

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