Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #5886 — mechanics update ]

[Perish Song]

Some more observations / thoughts

RE: On Roaring Moon

What I think about this havent changed much. This thing is actually difficult to setup with. Physical bulk is near nonexistent, its typing kinda invalidates its special bulk too. Its weak to almost any common priority/coverage when its not the target of your Terra, most notably against Breloom and Chien Pao as well as Baxcalibur, SD Ice Shard is fun. (In the long run, I am assuming Terra is gone for being broken) In almost every game at best you are trading 1:1 even after setting up.

On the other hand tho, its raw physical stats are pretty fun in 139/119, this might make a good Band or Scarf user. (Even Life Orb perhaps)

RE: Shed Tail

I still believe this move is absurd if you can pull it off against deadweight Pokemon. I've seen many people run Torkoal and Glimmora and while they just try to setup stuff immediately, you can effortlessly pass a Substitute to many many setup sweepers waiting at the back. My favorite ones are Volcarona and Dragonite, especially the latter because setting up behind a Substitute with Multiscale up results in veeeery fast games.

On the other hand, I've also experimented that this is hard to pull off in pure offensive matchups. Many times I've faced hard hitters and both Pokemon who can pull off this move arent known for their bulk so its easy to drop below 50 and you play a Pokemon down. You realistically cannot click this more than once or twice.

Overall, mixed feelings. Would need to wait a bit for some unhealthy elements to be removed so we can see how it actually performs on both Pokemon.

Great Tusk

This thing just doesnt die. I've had most fun with this Pokemon, its sheer bulk on STAB Body Press is fun to play with. Plus it comes with good utility in Electric Immunity, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, and Rapid Spin. I believe once the meta settles down and brokens are gone, this will be a very valuble Pokemon for the metagame.

Iron Treads

For me, this is just an Excadrill without Mold Breaker but better stats. Definitively worth experimenting on because just as its counterpart, Iron Treads has valuable utility. Solid defensive typing, Elec immun, Rocks, Spin, Knock.

Other topics, Flutter Mane and Chien Pao needs to go. Breloom deserves some more love. Gholdengo is a good Scarf User.

 

[Eeveeto]

It's literally been one day and we said we are open to every option numerous times.

I spent my entire day yesterday getting up a post being transparent as to what we have discussed and what the community has discussed. I am very glad there are people with different opinions and they are posting them, too. But going out of your way to claim we are being "reckless" when we have done nothing and just been transparent is ridiculous, Eeveeto, especially when you yourself admit you have yet to even play the tier yet.

Maybe I didn't choose my words right, but what I said is that in some future moment you might possibly be reckless at tiering and permanently Ban something before giving it a chance, not that at this exact moment you are ruining the Tier with a Ban Hammer. It's not the same thing, sorry if I have offended someone lol.

 

[Finchinator]

Maybe I didn't choose my words right, but what I said is that in some future moment you might possibly be reckless at tiering and permanently Ban something before giving it a chance, not that at this exact moment you are ruining the Tier with a Ban Hammer. It's not the same thing, sorry if I have offended someone lol.

No bans are permanent, but also we have went out of our way to say we are only going to ban things early that are very clearly egregious and will not have a place in OU.

I am not offended, but I do need for you and everyone to know that we are keeping an open mind and we are just trying to be as transparent as possible. I am really glad you and others are posting, but we are all on the same team here -- we all want the best SV OU!

 

[Magcargo]

Why is Terrastal normal not considered legitimate counterplay to Houndstone? It is situational, yes, but w/ how fast the metagame is and how many Ghost there are, some defensive Pokemon with a fair amount of natural Bulk can use the option to catch Houndstone and other Ghost off guard. I don't see the option as niche due to the number of OP Ghost either like Flutter Mane so having a pocket Ghost immunity does help a lot in these match-ups. I've been using Tera Normal on my Slowking and it has been amazing for these match-ups against these Ghost mons and I'd argue it makes Slowking itself better defensively since it gets rid of all 6 of its weaknesses, letting it use its natural bulk much better.

I'd understand if Terrastal Normal was considered high-oppurtunity cost counterplay, but it still is a form of counterplay that exist I feel.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Baxcalibur @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Glaive Rush
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash

The new pseudo, Baxcalibur, is certainly a very cool mon as well that I don't think can reach its true potential in the current meta. It is very powerful with a speed tier that allows it to outrun and kill pretty much everything with a dd up, which is quite simple to achieve given its natural bulk and ability to terra to a type that suits its defensive needs better. However, its signature move, glaive rush, leaves it open to the massive amounts of priority running around the tier due to its effect of causing the user to take double damage next turn, making it unlikely to do much more than trade 1 for 1 a lot of the time. I think it will be a great user of tera down the line and I expect it to pop off once Palafin is dealt with.

Baxcalibur just would run Protect to avoid the Penalty of Glaive Rush, A funny thing about Glaive Rush, Baxcalibur can be hit by a Dynamic Punch, Zap Cannon, Inferno or even OHKO moves (yeah, those moves are banned anyway) without missing. Also Baxcalibur can be hit by all of the 10 hits of Population Bomb because of Glaive Rush.

 

[ZannaBianca]

Hey guys, with all this HO craziness going on I wanted to show a core I have found quite some success with, even if grossly unoptimized:


Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Lack of Knock Off distribution really helps around and this boy being majorly thick means it can just sit on any Chien-Pao/Palafin/Roaring Moon and any physical mon lacking Electic or Grass STAB/Tera. This set is surprinsingly viable even against Corviknight due to being able to out-stall it after the Roost PP nerf. Tera Normal is specifically for HoundStone.


Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Body Press
- Power Whip

Speeking of Knock Off distribution, this guy gets it. Grass type provides key EQ resistance and Spore switch-in. It also walls basically any special attacker in the tier outside of Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle, which could be probably be stopped in a pinch with Tera Steel. Leech Seed can also be pretty annoying while providing Ferro-style recovery.

Free to listen to any suggestion

 

[AndViet]

Couple of thoughts:

Yes Terrastal normal is a good counterplay to Houndstone but than you're forcing a metagame to lean a certain way just to counter play 1 Pokémon, which I believe doesn't give in to a healthy metagame. You should have to have a safety net for one Pokemon's OP move.

Houndstone being (Last Pokemon / 2nd Last Pokemon) + Last Respects + Sand Rush is really overpowering and the only thing that can beat it is a normal Terrastal or Shadow Sneak. You can counter the bringing a Pokémon with Shadow Sneak to every game by Tera changing into a normal type and being immune to the Shadow Sneak.

Which moves me onto my next point. The idea of changing your Pokemon's type into a different pure type while maintaining and retaining your Pokemon's original typing and having 2 different STAB boosts is OP. Lets just say you wanted a free Adaptability boost (Shoutout to Crawdaunt) you can just Teratilise into the same type as your Pokemon. I am not going to speak about what needs to be tested / banned but Teratilise in general does not induce skill in a competitive sense and can snowball into something nasty very quickly.

 

[Patar136]

Wanna throw out a mon that looks like it has been underutilized.

Quaquaval @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Aqua Jet
- U-turn
- Close Combat

Moxie is a great ability and Choice Scarf seems like a good item to use on this thing, as it patches the somewhat underwhelming speed stat and has the movepool to hit hard. It even gets U-Turn for pivoting. With rain support, this is a threat worth looking into more.

 

[Agentkeval]

Alright after having played the meta for a bit, imma write what i agree with regarding the “on the radar” pokemon and some of my thoughts on what should be there. Another lazy post but i hope the ideas come across.

Flutter Mane
- aight this thing is MAD broken. Basically spectrier + moonblast stab, u can teratype to boost stabs, super good endgame cleaner, outspeeds everything with the booster energy protosynthesis or just the ability in general. Only counter play is revenge killing, such as chien pao sucker ir kingambit type stuff, which can also be outplayed completely. Scarfers can arguably be a counter if its not proto’d, which in that case its prolly scarf, so this is kinda invalid. You also have soft checks like the gargancl pokemon, but that’s 2ko’d by tera moonblast from what i remember, or literally just cant touch the pokemon besides rock salt, causing it to get recover pp stalled. Overall super duper broken pokemon, think it deserves a ban.

Houndstone
- i’ve laddered with this mon for the entirety of today and it’s super broken. High ladder theres barely any cplay besides dark/bulky pokemon, and i’ve been running tera fighting to just body press/terablast the darks. Runs out of sand? Put it back up w a smooth rocker and u go through the process all over again. Only counterplay to this sand strat is just opposing weather, which still pretty much loses. Imo ban

Chien-Pao
- this thing does not deserve a ban at all. I’ve been using 4a quite a bit and it seems to be a fairly good breaker (4a is also a very good cleaner), but any set you run, you lack the ability to “destroy” the meta, which is what i think qualifies a mon to be bannable. Sd with dark move, ice move, and priority is in my opinion the best set, however, i still dont think it puts in the work it needed for a ban. You have stuff like teratype bisharp (change to fairy on the sacred sword if they have it) or super bulky, common pokemon like iron hands or great tusk (tera or if they’re 4a u live). U also have the random bug pokemon who can put in work so yeah Again, no ban

Palafin/Palafin-hero
-Super powerful pokemon, but i do not think it deserves a ban, as of now. Its a pretty good mon, strong 160 attack and has jet punch + wave crash, two extremely powerful moves, and one carrying priority, like a buffed urshifu thing. One strategy that has been very effective if the opponent doesn’t play it right is spikestack + Palafin hero pressure. The overall idea of this is to endgame sweep with palafin jet punch or super break all of the mons to open up a teammate to sweep. Mixed feelings on this one, for it’s strong but not overwhelming, but again, another thing that makes this mon powerful is tera, which i’ll get to later. No ban for now

Roaring Moon
-no ban, it’s really just not broken. Outsped by many scarfers + protosynthesis/quark drive users such as flutter mane and iron valiant, howeverrrr, teratyping to something like steel makes it extremely dangerous. This thing also behind screens and just teratyping to dark, making it only weak to fairy x2, makes it super strong and very powerful. Still loses to stuff like great tusk, breloom (super good mon in the meta rn, start running sash sd or sash spore w tera fire terablast…), and chien pao stuff.

Iron Valiant
- very very good pokemon, quark drive booster energy cm is insane, the coverage is crazy, and its just a good pokemon overall. It struggles to beat +speed flutter manes which sucks (yes even with something like tera poison but without terablast), and isn’t the best vs fire types with what i’ve been running (cm tbolt aura sphere and moonblast tera poison). Its kinda mu fishy, so yeah. No ban, but only due to reasons i’ll state later on in the post.

cyslcciazar/ shed tail
- super ban this cyclizar, or at least complex ban shed tail. Free switch to anything, and if you’re in on like a clodsire (any bulky low attacking/ spa stat mon) you can go to a mon that resists or one with semi bulk to tank. Then you set up, and opponent shits their pants. I’ve seen this used with Quaquaval, Iron Valiant, and other strong set up sweepers. So yes. Ban

my thoughts now!!!

Booster Energy :idk how to put the item in:
- alr u can give stuff +1 any stat INSANTLY, for the duration they are in. This gives mons like Iron Valiant the ability to sweep or even revenge kill stuff super easily, making the game just a sack war or “set up kill a mon then die and repeat” (situation: roaring moon set up, brings in iron valiant, now ur dead if u already used tera). It also gives stuff like Flutter Mane the ability to switch mons while being the fastest thing in the tier, which isnt very fun. Basically, makes stuff the fastest shit in the tier, u cant do anything besides running a bulky pokemon to kill it, which is hard in this super offense meta. This enables flutter mane, iron valiant, even great tusk, to be super broken, and im not a fan. It also invalidates scarfers being good or even usable, cuz the opponent literally has something that’ll just whoop ur scarfer or sets up on ur stuff and u cant even revenge. Removing/ banning this would make iron valiant not so controlling, flutter mane revenge killable using an actual scarfer, eases out the speed tiers and lets us actually use the term “speed control” instead if “protosynthesis and sweep endgame hehe”. It’ll just make the meta more stable, give more mons an opportunity, and balance out some of the more broken pokemon.

one of the more controversial things… teratype
- I am a huge fan of teratyping, and I absolutely love the competitive aspect of either predicting when they’ll tera (yes if u predict wrong u basically lose but if u dont thats cool!), using it defensively, and using it offensively. Kinda fun mechanic, but again, we need to look on the “future of competitive” side. It’ll grow to be more broken and have a sort of dmax effect (who can dmax right and who can do it first and win). Rn its already crazy, with stuff like flutter mane or even chien pao having stab x2 with terra and just destroying teams. So yes, as much as I hate to say it.. ban

 

[Karxrida]

I'd honestly consider a Leppa Berry ban before a Revival Blessing ban. Leppa Berry's only "legitimate" use before now has been to enable endless battles, and we already have a clause for that. I can't recall if Leppa is the linchpin for every endless battle scenario, but removing it from the game entirely would be no big loss.

And this is assuming Leppa Berry works on Revival Blessing or if it can be used more than once per fight, which I'm not sure has even been confirmed yet. Game Freak might have accounted for those scenarios since they already gave the move 1 PP.

 

[taziathegreat]

I’m honestly confused about the hype regarding houndstone. It’s clearly suspect worthy, but I don’t see anything that puts it in quick ban territory. It’s a typical single move nuke Pokémon we’ve seen multiple of the last 3 gen’s but it requires more set up and opportunity cost than any of the others. It’s handled by all the priority in the game and how prevalent dark types are currently

 

[UnholyKidd]

I'd honestly consider a Leppa Berry ban before a Revival Blessing ban. Leppa Berry's only "legitimate" use before now has been to enable endless battles, and we already have a clause for that. I can't recall if Leppa is the linchpin for every endless battle scenario, but removing it from the game entirely would be no big loss.

And this is assuming Leppa Berry works on Revival Blessing or if it can be used more than once a er fight, which I'm not sure has even been confirmed yet. Game Freak might have accounted for those scenarios since they already gave the move 1 PP.

Think it is confirmed to work on revival blessing in the games

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Why is Terrastal normal not considered legitimate counterplay to Houndstone? It is situational, yes, but w/ how fast the metagame is and how many Ghost there are, some defensive Pokemon with a fair amount of natural Bulk can use the option to catch Houndstone and other Ghost off guard. I don't see the option as niche due to the number of OP Ghost either like Flutter Mane so having a pocket Ghost immunity does help a lot in these match-ups. I've been using Tera Normal on my Slowking and it has been amazing for these match-ups against these Ghost mons and I'd argue it makes Slowking itself better defensively since it gets rid of all 6 of its weaknesses, letting it use its natural bulk much better.

I'd understand if Terrastal Normal was considered high-oppurtunity cost counterplay, but it still is a form of counterplay that exist I feel.

I don't think it's a counterplay at all. Giving normal typing to a tera mon, which could very well be a waste, sounds like desperate measures. What if Houndstone is not the last pokemon and just switches out? Last respects is still pretty damn strong if houndstonr the 4th or 5th instead of 6th. A fighting type move can potentially kill the tera normal, then allow Houndstone to clean up the rest.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Crazy how we’re like, 2 days in and people are already hyper-polarized in their opinions. I think everything that needs to be said on the radar mons has been said already (besides new innovation, which is not my forte lol), so instead of giving my thoughts on the potential banworthy mons/mechanics, I’m just gonna list them out here in order of brokenness.

Needs To Go

Flutter Mane

Would Not Be Sad To See Gone

Terastalizing
Chien-Pao
Houndstone (preferably replaced with a Last Respects ban post-Home)
Cyclizar

Very Sus

Iron Bundle
Revival Blessing
Booster Energy
Chi-Yu

Probably Fine (but still sus)

Palafin
Roaring Moon
Shed Tail
Gholdengo
Great Tusk
Iron Valiant
Ting-Lu
Scovillain

Pretty Cool

Annihilape
Glimmora
Meowskarada
Iron Treads
Kingambit
Pawmot
Iron Hands
Quaquaval
Clodsire
Slither Wing
Iron Moth
Baxcalibur
Skeledirge
Cetitan
Sandy Shocks
Dondozo

Every other Gen 9 mon probably doesn’t hit OU. I’ve seen some pretty funny sets but realistically none of them are gonna be VR-worthy later in the gen. To actually add to the discussion: Tera will never be balanced, no matter how much you limit it. I get that it’s fun but at the end of the day, that’s what Ubers is for. Palafin is really really stupid exclusively because of Jet Punch and its matchup into offense (the defining playstyle right now). Maybe it’ll be fine later, but when taking Bulk Up sets into consideration, I doubt it. Anyone claiming Revival Blessing needs to go before anyone’s even had a chance to use it is being silly; just look at Shed Tail. Some people thought Orthworm would be the better setter lol. And finally, Roaring Moon is super overrated. Mon is just physical Hydreigon without Koff but with a better speed tier. Once Tera is gone it’ll be fine.

 

[Suricata]

Hey guys, with all this HO craziness going on I wanted to show a core I have found quite some success with, even if grossly unoptimized:


Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Lack of Knock Off distribution really helps around and this boy being majorly thick means it can just sit on any Chien-Pao/Palafin/Roaring Moon and any physical mon lacking Electic or Grass STAB/Tera. This set is surprinsingly viable even against Corviknight due to being able to out-stall it after the Roost PP nerf. Tera Normal is specifically for HoundStone.


Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Body Press
- Power Whip

Speeking of Knock Off distribution, this guy gets it. Grass type provides key EQ resistance and Spore switch-in. It also walls basically any special attacker in the tier outside of Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle, which could be probably be stopped in a pinch with Tera Steel. Leech Seed can also be pretty annoying while providing Ferro-style recovery.

Free to listen to any suggestion

I have got k6 with Dodonzo as my team core. He is quite strong against Pao Dolhpin and Moon, etc.
For my take, Wave Crash could be much better than Liquidation, since u have a bulky HP so the recoil is just weak and the 120Bp could be important against those spa sweepers like FM.
For the second move I choose Curse. Actually I haven't try Body Press. And I Can't come up with enough situations that body press is indispensable. Curse is great, even allow u to get a 6-0 win with opp teams full of physical mons.

 

[quziel]

Now that I've seen a lot more Bulk Up Palafins, I sorta think the mon needs to go in the first wave.


After a BU, the mon simply does too much damage. Jet Punch starts getting way too strong. Gholdengo drops at 60-75% to a +1 Jet Punch (with Gloves), you instantly win the mirror with Drain Punch against opposing Palafin. While this set alone isn't likely enough to get an instant ban, the flexibility in the last slot is the source of a ton of power. You can run Taunt to instantly win the matchup against Toxapex, Slowking, and friends, you can run Ice Punch to OHKO Dragonite, you can run Tera Blast to hit some arbitrary threat your team needs walled.

This is also in the context of being able to run very strong HDB, Band, and Scarf sets. You simultaneously need to assume that Palafin is about to hit you with a Band Flip turn, as well as setting up with Taunt + BU, making the choice of what to switch into sorta a lose/lose situation until the set is revealed. This lets it very easily get +1 / +1, and once it does, it really is nearly impossible to stop outside of Dondozo.

BU

Palafin @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch / Taunt / Tera Blast / Encore

Aside from that, just get rid of Flutter Mane, and perhaps Chien Pao. Meta will need time to adjust after. Houndstone is trong, but requires very specific setup, and that's imo not enough to get a QB for me. Shed Tail is something I've only seen really work in the context of Screens, cause the sub just dies otherwise.

 

[Turtlek]

So this post isn’t especially about gen 9 ou, but IMO, there should be more abilities, moves and complex bans. If Power Construct has been banned previous gens, Zygarde that was a healthy Pokemon could be run with no abilities.

 

[Suricata]

Great Tusk and Goldengo could dominate OU tier after those Ubers leave. Actually I have noticed a continuously increasing usage of these two guys.

 

[G-Luke]

Ok I've played the game, I've formed my opinions. Now it's time to post my thoughts.

I just want to say that it is insane that Dragapult has access to a Ghost type STAB move with an Adaptability boost behind it and NO ONE uses it. Truly the time we are living in right now. But outside of that I am carrying some hot takes right now and I hope we can start looking into them.

Flutter Mane

I am glad that everyone has agreed - this is an absurd Pokémon. It warps how the metage operates to a stunning degree. We have some of the most powerful forms of speed control we have ever seen in large part to some truly potent First Impression users, the return of Mach Punch Breloom, some really stellar Choice Scarf options and the looming threat of Dragapult.....and no one really uses them. Why? Because of Flutter Mane. Why should First Impression be used when the one of the fastest offensive wallbreakers in the tier x4 resists it and can swiftly OHKO all the users? Even worse for Breloom. Why should I run Choice Scarf or Dragapult when there is a very large chance Flutter Mane outsides them with Booster Energy (more on this thing later to be honest) anyways? It makes only very specific options of speed control viable, and when you can 2HKO everything, not being able to even revengekill it outside of specific threats raises the alarm. LMAO the worst part is by proxy, just by being in the tier - every broken Pokémon is harder to match. Get this filth outta here.


Chien Pao

It's not as outrageous as Flutter Mane, which is truly in it's own class, but Chien Pao is just plain old dumb man. On paper you think this thing operates as "faster Weavile" - trades offensive Utility of Knock Off (they more or less average out to the same power thanks to Gen 8 Weavile's higher BP STABs), but this faster speed and access to a far strong priority move in Sucker Punch makes it much harder to offensively answer this beast, much less defensively. Add Terastilizing into the mix, and we just got ALOT harder to answer this Pokémon. Going Dark for nuclear Sucker Punches, going Fairy/Fighting to dodge First Impression and all of this Pokémon's genuinely great diverse sets (Choice Band, Boots or Black Glasses SD, LO 3 Attacks with Recover on Tera Fighting has been an insane option LMAO) it just warps shit too much. My only fear is when this is gone we gonna have to face the man Pult. It does not outright end games like Flutter, but it warps the meta around it in a way I do not appreciate when teambuilding. Ban his ass, and if Tera is banned later, suspect?


Shed Tail

Sub was not meant to be passed in a meta you can easily punish it man. Shed Tail is a nasty move which has already made the unbearable HO set up sweepers we already are facing in the tier even more of a burden to handle. Even disregarding the most powerful Paradox Pokémon, passing a sub to Dragonite or Volcarona is just plain fucked up. Bro set up sweepers already have Terra edge, they ass do not need this. And it's not just Cyclizar either. People have started building with Shed Tail Orthworm and it's just as devasting, if only a bit harder to get off. Instead of using high speed and resist / immunity prediction, Orth relies on it's very solid bulk to be able force out a thing that resists to get off a sub, but SLOW. No Regen means it's not as consistent, but I've seen Sitrus Berry do great work, and Earth Eater proccing and giving his HP back has happened to me a lot more often than I am comfortable admitting. It honestly gives Diglett vibes - no where near as good as the prime suspect, but JUST good enough to be goofy. OU needs to shed the tail permanently.

These imo are what should get the Quick Ban in the first round (maybe second for Shed Tail), everything else should then get a chance to grow and develop before being Uber kicked. I do have some takes on some stuff though

Roaring Moon, Booster Energy and the Terastilizing Paradox

Roaring Moon in my opinion is THE example of Terastilization being too much of a good thing, it's the only Pokémon I've seen that has utilized every single aspect of terastilization and has done so to a frightening degree. You can go for Dark/Dragon tera, probably the worst defensively and try to just PUNCH through checks. Genuinely solid Fairy types are far and few between, and with just a few walls chipped and some hazards up, this variant does the job of cleaning really fine. Like scarily so. Then people started relying on the few Fairy types and First Impression to check this Pokémon and then suddenly BAM! Steel Tera shot up into the ranks to quite literally flip the script, usually using this opportunity to get ANOTHER DDance to then sweep. People were like.....ok then, but wait bulky Fighting types with Body Press flatten both of these variants (and check Ice Cat too). Then the final twist, Flying type sets appeared with Acrobatics. They crap on Fimp, are strong enough to nuke Fairies anyway and come up with the sweet benefit of slamming your favorite Body Press user. It's just too much, since all of these are still valid, and these are only the top three types, it can viably use alot more. But then you ask someone...hypothetically take away Tera, and what do you have left? And that's a big argument to have. Is this an example of Tera making ok or solid Pokémon into death machines, or is this a Pooémon who is tailor made to push this mechanic to it's breaking point? I am not sure, but I know as long as tera is here Roaring Moon can't. But, even then another aspect of Roaring Moon to discuss. It's ability to utilize Booster Energy. Outside of Flutter Mane, it is one of the best Pokémon that utilizes this item. It effectively trades it's item slot for a customizable Gen 9 Intrepid Sword that cannot be Unaware blocked or Hazed away. It can use this boost to either make it even harder to wall with an attack boost, or can run speed variants to crap on basically any viable Scarfer. Is this too much for Roaring Moon? Or is it too much, point blank? This is a lot harder to debate, because you have to prove that Booster Energy is broken on all of, or at least most of it's users. We have Roaring Moon and Flutter Mane sure, but what about the others? Well, Iron Bundle is an often overlooked but underappreciated offensive threat, we know exactly how potent it's offensive power is, and Booster Energy essentially eliminates Scarfers being able to revenge kill it, while also undermining set up sweepers who have to give up alot to achieve their power. It turns into an unstoppable offense killer, a slightly toned down Flutter Mane. You have Iron Valiant, a Pokemon that in my opinion, is largely an inoffensive wallbreaker designed to utilize it's mixed offenses, but Booster Energy turns this otherwise bearable wallbreaker into a certified offense killer, thanks to a free +1 speed on switch in, which it can use to clean weakened teams with SD. Even stuff like Great Tusks can be seen as a bit overbearing, as even with it only triggering once, what is effectively Intrepid Sword on a Pokemon with 131 Attack, two potent 120 BP STABs and a servicible speed tier, not to mention Rapid Spin to boost it's speed might get it a bit too far overboard. I personally have not used other Paradox Pokémon outside of what I have mentioned, but from what I have gleamed from their stats, they probably will never use this item due to how they are configued stat or type wise. That only leaves the argument, is 4 to 5 Pokémon too much before we start looking at the item, or is the existence of quite a few duds enough to justify keeping it and banning the Pokémon instead? Personally, fuck Booster Energy. The fact that Valiant is even on the radar tells me how stupid this item is. If you want to get super speed Valiant, you gotta work hard and run Pincurchin in OU with a bunch of super Ground types being viable like the rest of us!

To look at Terastilizing in general, I'd like to see it get a chance to breath when the batshit stuff is gone and see how the common folk utilize this weapon they have been handed to. Imo on paper it's uncompetitive, but I want to see outside of flipping a single matchup, can this mechanic prove to be unbearable in practice when all is said and done. It should definitely be suspect tested, but I truly believe that after a couple bans are put into place is the time for Tera.

To wrap this up, I'll do small tidbits on other things. Fire Fish is not ready to be broken yet, it needs the meta to calm down a bit, a mon like this thrives either as a Scarfer or versus fat, and the metagame has no space for either.
I think Doplhin is fine, once the broken Ghost and Dark types are gone and all the meta slows down, it's worst enemies in Bulky Waters like Slowbro and Toxapex will rear their very ugly heads and render even arguably the dreaded Bulk Up sets rather ineffective (Taunt + Bulk Up is only good when you have like, ONE fattish Pokémon per team, u simply can't bring coverage to beat them all).
The Last Respects v Hound debate is tough, but I think if we ban something it has to be Last Respects. Discounting that we know even stronger abusers are coming, the move clearly was not designed to function in a metagame where you can lose 5 Pokémon teammates and can one shot things one at a time (aka Battle Spot Singles where it's 150 BP and VGC where it caps at 200 but u have to worry about two things at once) and I think we should treat that way.
Sun is kinda fucked up man. Weather was NOT designed to be abused this way. It's offense with the caveat that you have to type stack to get the most out of it. Why do we have 7 different wallbreakers and a Shit Jigglypuff that can now completely change how you handle weather? There are no longer any "universal" means to stop Sun. You can't rely on wait out Sun, the Chlorophyll sweeper will tire out, or sack control + hazards to wear them out. Bro sun has every single tool to fuck shit up LMAOOO. It solves all its past issues + beats almost all of the other weathers, sans like Hail? Might be looking at a Heat Rock suspect later down the line....


If I were left to balance this meta, I'd personally go

Flutter Mane, Shed Tail and Chien Pao week 1.
Roaring Moon, Booster Energy and Last Respects week two.

Take a breath, examine how the meta fleshes out, and then suspect test Tera probably after 4 weeks of play. If Tera gets banned, Roaring Moon would be super droppable, and I'd honestly be open to a Chien Pao suspect later down the line.

Yay it's done, you made it to the end, be proud of yourself.

 

[Miyami~~~]

So this post isn’t especially about gen 9 ou, but IMO, there should be more abilities, moves and complex bans. If Power Construct has been banned previous gens, Zygarde that was a healthy Pokemon could be run with no abilities.

Power Construct got banned the last two generations and Zygarde still got banned without it.

Also Tera's too much in a game about prediction and knowledge, the fact that you can't see teratypes until your opponent clicks the button stretches the boundary on what you can actually prep for way too much. giving everything adaptability is already crazy, but I think the more broken part of tera is being able to have any of your offensive Pokemon live its checks just by suddenly giving it a resistance to them. I hope it goes in the first wave but given that that seems unlikely based on the on the radar thread I'd just like it out of the tier ASAP.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Boomburst
- Shift Gear
- Sludge Bomb

Talk About this, Toxtricity is gonna rip anything shreds anything that doesn't resist or have low special defense against STAB Boomburst boosted by Punk and Teralization, Overdrive nails Water and Flying types and Sludge Bomb crushes Fairy types such as Scream Tail and Iron Valiant (useless if its Jolly and activates Quark Drive, it outspeeds +2 Speed Toxtricity) and Grass Types such as Meowscarada and Wo-Chien

 

[UnholyKidd]

Edit: Added a sentence

I think People are greatly overestimating Terastalizing's strength and impact. REMEMBER, WE ARE LIMITED TO ONE PER GAME
Its not like every Pokemon will be able to Terastalize every turn into a different type chosen freely. Really, we are forced to select our Tera Type in Teambuilding, we have to explicitly choose what mon to Terastalize in game.

Terastalizing is not a free Nuke like Z-Move that would still get you some value, even if you switch in a resisted mon. Its not a 100 BST boost and ability change like Mega Evolution. And it most certainly is not doubling your HP, supercharging your moves, allowing u to either set weather, terrain or get a free boost per turn for 3 turns like Dynamax.

It only changes your type, giving you an additional STAB. Sure, thats strong, BUT. HUGE BUT:
-One per Game, meaning you need to plan your Tera out wisely, an early Tera is a huge Risk that can be successful, but a late Tera is more guaranteed value.
-Pre-Selected in Teambuilding, meaning that its chosen to add to a set's strength in either all matchups or specific ones.
If it adds to the sets strength in all matchups, its Power Boost is not as big. If you limit the huge strength boost to few matchups, you have no boost in other matchups.

What is my point?
The Meta will settle, a few abusers of Tera will shine over others, every mon will see use out of it, but we are in no state to make a decision regarding Terastalizing. Tera is in no way OP right now, because its way less prediction than what people think. Are we gonna see a Palafin using Tera Rock? No. Why? Cause Tera Rock is gonna be absolutely dogshit as Palafin does a) not even get a single rock type move, b) gets better coverage options, removing any need for Tera Rock Terablast, and c) has way better Tera Options.

There will be specific Tera Options shining over others on Specific mons. There is no One-Do-It-All Mechanic. Let the Dust settle and look if Tera is actually the issue, not the mons abusing it. Look if Tera is actually the reason why specific mons are doing as well as they are.

The actual Pool of Tera Users we are gonna see in the Metagame is way smaller than what people think.

 

[furyofyuriy]

I am not going to speak about what needs to be tested / banned but Teratilise in general does not induce skill in a competitive sense and can snowball into something nasty very quickly.

I would argue that this generational gimmick is the most competitive of any mechanic so far. It fundamentally changes team building in a variety of ways that can enhance already great power, as well as add purely defensive utility. There will always be brainless choices for combinations, but that speaks more about the ability of the pokemon than the mechanic itself. Furthermore, in terms of team building it offers more diversified teams and can provide needed coverage against things like weather, terrains, and status.

For example, the majority of people only value Terastillization for its offensive power. Typically in team building you get 1-2 mons that want to use it to blow a hole in something. But what about the other mons and moves?

Something many people have overlooked is the value of the type defensively, not against 4x weaknesses, but against play styles and the value of the Tera type. Obviously certain types have secondary benefits, such as Rock being immune to sand damage, but a variety of tera types can be used to counter status, such as burns or paralysis.

For example, with Snow usage on the rise, defensive mons or bulky mons can use an Ice Teratype to gain defensive boosts in the snow the opponent has set up. Suddenly their snow sweaper outputs alot less damage. Enemy Prankster user being annoying? Tera type too Dark. Worried about Burn? Fire Type. The list goes on.

Unlike Dynamax, which essentially granted a pokemon 4 mini z moves that set up for sweeping and play styles like weather or terrain, this mechanic is much more passive. Like any mechanic added from previous generation, it can and will influence the outcome of a game. But too say it doesn't induce skill is ludicrous. If anything, it separates the best competitive players from the competitive players who only know how to use the most broken team comps.

 

[1LDK]

So this post isn’t especially about gen 9 ou, but IMO, there should be more abilities, moves and complex bans. If Power Construct has been banned previous gens, Zygarde that was a healthy Pokemon could be run with no abilities.

They dont like it, because since the disaster of gen 5 complex bans, they decided that the majority of times, the best solution was the simplest one, and the few outlayers can be seen from a mile away

On the topic of tera, I already said that this was a picture made of macaronis and glue, one thing that i have to say tho, is that the way you have to bait the tera hat first and then use your hat, is similar to D e f e n s i v e D i n a m a x, and you guys know how bad that argument got

Fun fact: I once encountered a Flutter mane that tera into normal so that MY flutter mane couldnt do shit with Shadow Ball and killed me, to his unluckiness, i had Choice Scarf ditto on the back with coverage, so i won the match but I shat my pants for a sec

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Something many people have overlooked is the value of the type defensively

Not trying to call you out in particular but this narrative has to stop. EVERYONE is aware of the value of defensive Terastalizing, and they’re using it all the time on offensive mons. Why? Well, because besides a few outliers (such as Avalugg), offensive mons see VASTLY greater benefits from Terastalizing, and trying to claim otherwise is simply disingenuous. Yes, a Grass/Dark mon Terastalizing into a Fighting type to dodge First Impression is great, but I’d much rather use that on my Bulk Up Zarude than my PhysDef Wo-Chien.