Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Mega Breloom]

I believe that all tinkaton is missing from being viable in OU is a reliable recovery option.

With this typying she would be an excellent wall.

Tinkaton stats are too low for OU, Magearna for example also doesn't have reliable recovery, however, thanks to its stats distribution combined with its typing makes Magearna super good.

 

[ant4456]

Game Freak learned their lesson with Fairy/Steel-types in Gen 9, that's for certain lol

 

[pika pal]

Tinkaton stats are too low for OU, Magearna for example also doesn't have reliable recovery, however, thanks to its stats distribution combined with its typing makes Magearna super good.

In fairness, if Starmie taught me anything, it's that good typing and movepool can go a lot farther than stats in a defensive role. Heck, look at Clefable. That thing's stats are trash for a 3rd stage, but the right movepool and abilities like Unaware/Magic Guard kept it competently high on viability rankings since Gen 6, and even led to experimentation and success with it in Gen 4.

Tinkaton's defenses are about in line with the two I mentioned above or something like Klefki, it just is missing a few pieces it would clearly want in the OU environment (like a way to avoid total passivity on Steels), but has moves some mons would kill for like T-Wave and Encore on top of fantastic typing.

 

[SpritePony]

While I was of the same mind, I think it's still a bit too early to conclude that, if it remains ou after another shift I'd say that would be more evidence that shed tail was the issue.

Unfortunately so, but I definitely see it as Shed Tail being the issue as every time I've seen it thus far, it's been entirely to pass to a setup mon.

While we could say shed tail is the problem is probably correct but orthworm can’t break it like cyclizar can. Also, while espathra can be stupid, if it sets up twice and then you switch into it then that is on you. Game plan is in team preview, gotta see it coming.

Nah, I basically always go hard Dirge on it, but even then Dirge isn't an autowin vs it, as if the Espathra is a defensive variant, I can still have troubles vs it. CM + Protect Espathra is still about a 2 to 3HKO, depending upon rolls, and when you get Dirge in they already have 1 to 3 stat ups for Stored Power. Then Stored Power just bops you for a bajillion damage. Once they actually start trying to swing, I get chunked for... 58.6% - 69% (huehue); which hurts like hell on top of being naturally slower than it.
On the brighter side of it, if I bring Dirge in and click Sub on a predicted Protect, then I get a free Sub to tank the hit... But that still doesn't change how single brain celled Espathra really is. If you don't have a mon that is Unaware, Haze, or already setup before it in the case of something like Dnite, you kind of autolose to it.

I've been in the 1600's recently and I'm seeing a lot of teams that are just Orthworm + Grimmsnarl + 4 set-up sweepers, or occasionally with Great Tusk + 3 set-up sweepers. It's an incredibly tedious style of play to go up against. It is so difficult to build a team that consistently has counters to each of, say, Espathra, Dragonite, and Volcarona that can beat them from behind a shed tail with dual screens up. And when you do take one of them out, your reward is gifting a free switch-in to a *different* set-up sweeper that will invariably have a good match-up against your counter to the previous set-up sweeper.

As far as I'm aware, nothing in this meta can stop Grimmsnarl from getting its screens up, unless you can bait it to use Taunt and switch in a Hatterene to Magic Bounce it back, which is quite a niche interaction and not a reliable counter since it requires a decision from your opponent to use Taunt.

Once the screens are up, it's not difficult to get Orthworm in and pass its free Shed Tail to whichever set-up sweeper matches up best against your team. From there it's either gg, or you have to waste far too many resources to eliminate that sweeper, in which case the cycle just repeats again. It's the same issue that people complained about with Cyclizar. Orthworm is objectively a useless pokemon in OU without Shed Tail (I dare anyone to argue in good faith that it would be viable without it), but the utility of Shed Tail has singlehandedly pulled it right into OU.

This also puts further pressure on the team not using Shed Tail to use its Tera to counter whichever sweeper is setting up, as counterplay to certain setup sweepers usually revolves around defensive Tera-ing. This makes it easier for the remaining set-up sweepers to operate without having to worry about your tera. I'm inclined to agree with the people who think this creates an unhealthy dynamic in the metagame.

And I want to finish by saying I do not believe any of Espathra, Dragonite, Volcarona, etc are broken and should be suspected/banned. I think the unhealthy dynamic is created by Shed Tail, not the sweepers themselves.

1. The two teams that I recall right now were... Shed Tail Rain with Dunsparce (heavy matchup phishing), and Shed Tail Screens Espathra. The rain team, if the pilot wasn't a moron, could've just went into Floatzel and crushed a number of Pokemon by itself. Screens Tail Espathra is just... Dumb as hell and generally annoying to deal with. That being said, going against these was an off-beat team that I was playing around with, trying to test building with Toxapex. (Spoiler alert: Did not go well. I can't build for shit around Tox, compared to Corv/Gastro.)
2. I actually just let them get up screens. If they have Taunt, then I play around the screens. If they don't, then Corv just sits there and Defogs them to kingdom come. Sometimes I've even used Tauros-Water to just smashy smashy them screens with Raging Bull.
3. I am in whole agreement with this. Without Shed Tail, Orth drops to like... RU or below, and Cyclizar is probably high UU at best. The best counters to Shed Tail, realistically, are Taunt, Infiltrator, and Sound moves (which is why I LOVE Pixilate Sylveon and Torch Song Skeledirge.)
4. So far the only setup sweepers I've really ran into that gave me trouble were Ape, when it was still around, and Emu thus far. The others, Dirge just sort of sits on and death metal screams in their faces.
5. As for the last bit, Volc... Has been less of a problem since I started playing Dirge (same with Garg), but Dnite can still bullshit me at times with rogue crits, and Espathra is just dumb, let's face it. It's a matchup phish Blaziken from ye olden days when the fire chicken was broken. The only difference is that Espathra doesn't have immediate power to push out at you, and instead wants to sit on you for Stored Power stacks into ez gg. Takes longer to get online, but yields dissimilar results.

 

[viivian]

My version of balance is usually:

Phys Def
SpDef
Pivot
Scarf/Speed Control
Phys Atk
SpAtk

I'm sure this isn't optimal, but it's the style I generally like.

same here! i usually like having two strong defensive backbones to fall back on whenever my wallbreakers can't reliably deal with something, and having two of each makes this a lot easier. and speed control is always great to have when chien-pao is currently dominating the metagame so i love running scarfed gholdengo or booster energy iron valiant to deal with it offensively

Tinkaton stats are too low for OU, Magearna for example also doesn't have reliable recovery, however, thanks to its stats distribution combined with its typing makes Magearna super good.

tinkaton has a great defensive typing, good bulk, a ton of utility moves and access to mold breaker, and when paired with wish support from alomomola or scream tail, she can legitimately put in work for bulkier teams as an anti-meta support option that can seriously annoy some top threats. she's capable of spreading status and setting hazards against most of the metagame, can thwart setup sweepers with encore and is a great source of item removal thanks to knock off in a metagame largely lacking it. tinkaton is capable of checking meowscarada, hatterene, iron valiant, roaring moon and many more, while being able to make her checks/counters like gholdengo and corviknight more careful about switching in. and being able to live nearly any hit from chien-pao and force it out is really nice as well. honestly think you're sleeping on tinkaton, this pokemon can put in genuine work with the right support, even in OU

 

[Soiramio3000]

what is going on with glimmora today?
almost every team I am facing runs one.

 

[1LDK]

what is going on with glimmora today?
almost every team I am facing runs one.

Its good on HO because it just vomits hazards and instantly dies with no momentum lost, altought some people have started to experiment full wall breaker sets because it has some cool moves like power gem, earth power, energy ball and sludge wave, its a nice spin, i haven't used personally but from what I have heard sounds cool

 

[Soiramio3000]

Its good on HO because it just vomits hazards and instantly dies with no momentum lost, altought some people have started to experiment full wall breaker sets because it has some cool moves like power gem, earth power, energy ball and sludge wave, its a nice spin, i haven't used personally but from what I have heard sounds cool

okay but what caused this many people all of the sudden to start including it in all of their teams?
did someone make a video or something like that?

 

[Ehmcee]

what is going on with glimmora today?
almost every team I am facing runs one.

Frankly it's usage has decreased a ton since early SV, just because everyone is running a poison type on their team.
Started as #7 most used in OU in November, #11 most used in December, then #13 most used in January.
It's only really dropped from 19% usage to 14% usage though.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Frankly it's usage has decreased a ton since early SV, just because everyone is running a poison type on their team.
Started as #7 most used in OU in November, #11 most used in December, then #13 most used in January.
It's only really dropped from 19% usage to 14% usage though.

really?that's what caused its sudden popularity.
okay.
thanks.

 

[Mega Breloom]

tinkaton has a great defensive typing, good bulk, a ton of utility moves and access to mold breaker, and when paired with wish support from alomomola or scream tail, she can legitimately put in work for bulkier teams as an anti-meta support option that can seriously annoy some top threats

Tinkaton bulk is mediocre, even with its typing it gets OHKO or 2HKO by most of the top mons the tier, making its support role questionable. A support pokemon needing another support to be usable is a huge red flag, also, wish support is also considered pretty bad in this meta since you lost all momentum, something that Tinkaton makes that worse since it really doesn't do much and gets forced out by a lot of things, especially Tusk since even with stab play rough it doesn't do much damage to it. Tinkaton just doesn't have the tools to have a consistent role in OU.

 

[touhoku]

Two sets I designed that I think have merit in general:


Gholdengo @ Metal Coat
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot

This thing has some absurd calcs, especially with tera, notably:

Tera Calcs

252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 252-298 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with Unaware)
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 436-514 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 401-472 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 401-472 (99.2 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 397-468 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (lol)
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 351-413 (108.6 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO through Multiscale
252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 152-179 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - high chance to KO with shadow ball the following turn
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (including the drop)
252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 382-450 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 408-482 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

... you get the idea.

non-Tera Calcs

252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 433-511 (99.7 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 286-337 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 318-374 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Espathra: 398-470 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensively, it also lives a few notable hits without tera

Defensive Calcs

0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 256-302 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (also lives +1 fire punch)
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 288-342 (77.6 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bulldoze vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 306-362 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Fire Breloom Tera Blast vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 302-356 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 308-366 (83 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 211-249 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
etc.

You still get all the general benefits of gholdengo, with defog/spin blocking, status blocking, its great set of resistances, and I find that it can be pretty easy to bluff scarf with this set in the early game as well. If you can get +2 on a predicted switch you are almost guaranteed a kill. Beyond that, this set essentially 6-0s any hard stall on the ladder, by virtue of 2hkoing clod and breaking through blissey and pex with ease. (short replay)

I find as an especially good partner here (go modest by the way, it's worth it) as it appreciates clod being removed alongside ghostspam just generally being good.



Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Protect

My pride and joy, lefties Wo-Chien. The bulk on this is seriously underestimated, and the passive recovery from leech + giga drain + protect is enough to stonewall some teams, especially with good predictions. Tera poison covers the main two weaknesses (Fighting and U-Turn) while also providing a crucial toxic/tspike immunity. Wo-Chien legitimately 1v1s nearly the entire offensive meta, including offensive tusk, specs valiant, and a handful of the common dnite sets. Here's a bunch of defensive calcs (that don't include protect turns or giga drain):

Live Wo-Chien Reaction

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 216-254 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 113-134 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 180-212 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 128-152 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 118-140 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 200-236 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 136-162 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin (non-Tera) Wo-Chien in Rain: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 41.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 129-153 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- 81.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 138-164 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- approx. 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 120-142 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
etc.

Meanwhile, uninvested knock/giga drain can actually hit reasonably hard vs. common targets

WO WO WO

0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 254-302 (58.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 384-452 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 266-314 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 186-222 (50.2 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Wo-Chien Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 192-228 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Wo-Chien Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 234-276 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 204-242 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 120-144 (29.7 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 118-139 (40.8 - 48%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Wo-Chien struggles with other grass types (, ), bulkier with recovery, , with recovery or psychic, and switching regen/corv in front of it, though it underspeeds most corv allowing for a leech seed after their u-turn. You have a favorable roll against +1/Band from full, but that's generally a difficult matchup. Some sets and can come down to correct protect/attack plays as well.

On the flipside, Wo blanks a large portion of the physical metagame (including winning 1v1 vs band pao, and having a decent shot vs jolly sd boots), most walls (you win 1v1 vs any garg, though I'd recommend not tera'ing until you are sure its body press or rocks and not curse + earthquake) and a good number of special threats as well. Beyond that, protect is incredible in the meta right now, between scouting the long list of choice users and gathering more lefties/leech seed recovery. Pairing it with tspike is great for this reason as well, to rack up extra poison/toxic damage.

Here's the team I used these two on (rmt soon? if I actually write it...), which peaked #27 on the ladder and got me pao suspect reqs in one try.

 

[Solar Power]

Two sets I designed that I think have merit in general:


Gholdengo @ Metal Coat
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot

Question: Do you find that the 32 Speed EV's are actually necessary? I run a similar version of this but with 252 HP, 252 SP Atk, and 4 Sp Def. I looked at the speed tiers when working out my own spread, and it looks like the only things you really outspeed with those EV's are uninvested Rotom-W and uninvested Great Tusk. Considering Gholdengo is probably switching out on Great Tusk anyway, and you don't really want to be gambling that 80% or so damage from an earthquake that it's not got any speed investment. And Rotom-W chip damage can easily be recovered off and it's sometimes beneficial to be slower so it volt switches out and you can nail whatever is switching in. I had been running 24 speed EV's, but switched to 252/252/4 and I don't feel like I've really given anything up. Just looking for other opinions on this.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Theorymonning is like one of the best things we can do while waiting for the chien pao ban (aside from getting reqs, but god I'm salty)
To change topic, i wanna show something I have been working on

Iron Valiant @ Expert Belt
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric/Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spirit Break
- Knock Off
- Thunder Punch/Shadow Sneak

I tried to use choice band valiant, but the set is surprisingly bad, I mean, not for a lack of power, but unlike specs, once you killed something, you have to switch out, whereas specs you can just magically keep killing stuff you know?. So I have been using Expert Belt instead, which, although sometimes you wish you were faster, when you can have something SE in front of you, god is so good, because you will always get 2 for 1 because the opponent is not really expecting it, and valiant's coverage is insanely good, so you can always have options to customize, yet another set that is better than the Booster Energy Red Bullshit you guys running (bro I'm still not sold)

Don't use Spirit Break! Even uninvested, Moonblast is <3% weaker, and most of the Fairy-weak `mons you care about are much weaker on the special side. Highly recommend either spread from my Mixed Valiant post way back when if you're willing to sacrifice a little speed.

252 Atk Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 123-145 (36 - 42.5%)
0 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 120-142 (35.1 - 41.6%)

As for myself, I'm still messing with Iron Hands, and it makes a lot of sense that it dropped to UU (and likely UUBL before too long). The top two threats in OU are immune to its STABs, making CB sets a huge risk. SD is even more hindered by the omnipresence of Tusk, since even at +2 there's just not much you can do other than take an EQ to the face. ID/BP, my favorite anti-offense set from the early meta, can work against Tusk in particular but is otherwise pretty much unviable now that we've moved so hard back to Balance.

That said, Assault Vest is working pretty nice, especially with Tera Steel.

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 192 Atk / 172 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake

144 Spe to creep `mons creeping Corv. 192 +Atk hits 400, which is a nice round number and I couldn't really find any calcs where it mattered. The rest in SpDef.

It still can't do anything to Tusk, so it's always going to be limited, but it can abuse Gholdengo , Specs Dragapult, Iron Valiant, and kinda Espathra while maintaining strong MUs against all of the Physical attackers that its natural bulk and typing already help it with. Oh, and not having to choose between EQ and Heavy Slam (as SD sets do) means you've got coverage to go around to help dent defensive `mons for later cleanup.

Iron Hands also really loves having Greninja around. I tended to run Hands with either Meowscarada or Iron Valiant to help with Great Tusk, Garchomp, and Washtom while sharing duties against Skeledirge and Dondozo. Gren does that job even better.

Won my first 7 matches at ~1500 with the paring before tilting trying too hard to get replays that specifically showed off Iron Hands (and Tera Fire Garg) doing work. So, uh, replays will come later.

 

[SpritePony]

Two sets I designed that I think have merit in general:


Gholdengo @ Metal Coat
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot

Funnily enough, this is excessively similar to the Dengo I use on my more serious, non-Greninja team.

@ Covert Cloak
Modest Nature | Good as Gold
Tera Type: Flying
244 HP / 252 SpAtk / 12 SpDef
Make It Rain
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt
Recover

The set was built around just being generally meaty and annoying to deal with. I'm not the type who likes to really do frail, easy to stop things like Scarf Dengo or greedy Nasty Plot spam, so I cooked this up to use. Takes 0% from Salt Cure, I've seen it absolutely slap Iron Bundles when playing in-game, and just all around is a total nuisance from being such a thicc cheese string boi.

 

[Ehmcee]

Question: Do you find that the 32 Speed EV's are actually necessary? I run a similar version of this but with 252 HP, 252 SP Atk, and 4 Sp Def. I looked at the speed tiers when working out my own spread, and it looks like the only things you really outspeed with those EV's are uninvested Rotom-W and uninvested Great Tusk. Considering Gholdengo is probably switching out on Great Tusk anyway, and you don't really want to be gambling that 80% or so damage from an earthquake that it's not got any speed investment. And Rotom-W chip damage can easily be recovered off and it's sometimes beneficial to be slower so it volt switches out and you can nail whatever is switching in. I had been running 24 speed EV's, but switched to 252/252/4 and I don't feel like I've really given anything up. Just looking for other opinions on this.

Realistically it's probably just to speed creep other bulky gholdengo

 

[touhoku]

Question: Do you find that the 32 Speed EV's are actually necessary? I run a similar version of this but with 252 HP, 252 SP Atk, and 4 Sp Def. I looked at the speed tiers when working out my own spread, and it looks like the only things you really outspeed with those EV's are uninvested Rotom-W and uninvested Great Tusk. Considering Gholdengo is probably switching out on Great Tusk anyway, and you don't really want to be gambling that 80% or so damage from an earthquake that it's not got any speed investment. And Rotom-W chip damage can easily be recovered off and it's sometimes beneficial to be slower so it volt switches out and you can nail whatever is switching in. I had been running 24 speed EV's, but switched to 252/252/4 and I don't feel like I've really given anything up. Just looking for other opinions on this.

Generally I find that (with the help of calcs) I can scout for tusk sets over the course of a game, and having the option to stay in if I know it's defensive is nice

Also, defensive rotom is a somewhat common pivot into scarf ghold, and it is nice to be able to stay in and continue to bluff scarf by being faster than those

 

[1LDK]

Counterpoint: The set has SD. At +2, Spirit Break will pretty much always hit harder than Moonblast. If it was all out attacker I'd agree but with SD it doesn't make much sense.

uhh, thanks for defending me, but my set does not have SD, his set does, he was talking about the set I was using haha

 

[Athyestic]

uhh, thanks for defending me, but my set does not have SD, his set does, he was talking about the set I was using haha

oh i cant read LOL forgive me deleting

 

[DiscoDucky]

Two sets I designed that I think have merit in general:


Gholdengo @ Metal Coat
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Nasty Plot

This thing has some absurd calcs, especially with tera, notably:

Tera Calcs

252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 252-298 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with Unaware)
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 436-514 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 401-472 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 401-472 (99.2 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 397-468 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (lol)
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 351-413 (108.6 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO through Multiscale
252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 152-179 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - high chance to KO with shadow ball the following turn
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (including the drop)
252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 382-450 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Metal Coat Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 408-482 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

... you get the idea.

non-Tera Calcs

252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 433-511 (99.7 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 286-337 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 318-374 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Metal Coat Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Espathra: 398-470 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensively, it also lives a few notable hits without tera

Defensive Calcs

0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 256-302 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (also lives +1 fire punch)
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 288-342 (77.6 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bulldoze vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 306-362 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Fire Breloom Tera Blast vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 302-356 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 308-366 (83 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 211-249 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
etc.

You still get all the general benefits of gholdengo, with defog/spin blocking, status blocking, its great set of resistances, and I find that it can be pretty easy to bluff scarf with this set in the early game as well. If you can get +2 on a predicted switch you are almost guaranteed a kill. Beyond that, this set essentially 6-0s any hard stall on the ladder, by virtue of 2hkoing clod and breaking through blissey and pex with ease. (short replay)

I find as an especially good partner here (go modest by the way, it's worth it) as it appreciates clod being removed alongside ghostspam just generally being good.



Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Protect

My pride and joy, lefties Wo-Chien. The bulk on this is seriously underestimated, and the passive recovery from leech + giga drain + protect is enough to stonewall some teams, especially with good predictions. Tera poison covers the main two weaknesses (Fighting and U-Turn) while also providing a crucial toxic/tspike immunity. Wo-Chien legitimately 1v1s nearly the entire offensive meta, including offensive tusk, specs valiant, and a handful of the common dnite sets. Here's a bunch of defensive calcs (that don't include protect turns or giga drain):

Live Wo-Chien Reaction

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 216-254 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 113-134 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 180-212 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 128-152 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 118-140 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 200-236 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 136-162 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin (non-Tera) Wo-Chien in Rain: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 41.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 129-153 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- 81.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Tera Poison Wo-Chien: 138-164 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- approx. 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 120-142 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
etc.

Meanwhile, uninvested knock/giga drain can actually hit reasonably hard vs. common targets

WO WO WO

0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 254-302 (58.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 384-452 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 266-314 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 186-222 (50.2 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Wo-Chien Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 192-228 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Wo-Chien Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 234-276 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 204-242 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 120-144 (29.7 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Wo-Chien Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 118-139 (40.8 - 48%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Wo-Chien struggles with other grass types (, ), bulkier with recovery, , with recovery or psychic, and switching regen/corv in front of it, though it underspeeds most corv allowing for a leech seed after their u-turn. You have a favorable roll against +1/Band from full, but that's generally a difficult matchup. Some sets and can come down to correct protect/attack plays as well.

On the flipside, Wo blanks a large portion of the physical metagame (including winning 1v1 vs band pao, and having a decent shot vs jolly sd boots), most walls (you win 1v1 vs any garg, though I'd recommend not tera'ing until you are sure its body press or rocks and not curse + earthquake) and a good number of special threats as well. Beyond that, protect is incredible in the meta right now, between scouting the long list of choice users and gathering more lefties/leech seed recovery. Pairing it with tspike is great for this reason as well, to rack up extra poison/toxic damage.

Here's the team I used these two on (rmt soon? if I actually write it...), which peaked #27 on the ladder and got me pao suspect reqs in one try.

Nice Wo-Chien set. Would this set be improved using Substitute over Protect, or is there a specific reason Protect is used here?

 

[touhoku]

Nice Wo-Chien set. Would this set be improved using Substitute over Protect, or is there a specific reason Protect is used here?

I'd definitely use protect and not sub, protect is for getting back extra health via lefties and leech seed as well as scouting opposing choiced mons. Given that wochien is slow, you aren't getting much scouting potential out of sub, and losing 25% of your hp won't be so bad with leech/lefties but it isn't the big positive that protect is. I'm sure a sub set could work but it'd be more meant to annoy slow teams and would be much less valuable against fat teams. Protect is insanely valuable because without actual recovery moves, alternating protect + giga drain while you have leech seed up is the only reliable way to heal enough

 

[incorolla]

Finally having fun on the ladder for the first time since the early meta... With Pachirisu, of all things!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1791294335

Encore is so useful, and the lil guy is bulkier than you might expect. I've won quite a few games and had him pull weight! Definitely outclassed but very fun!

 

[SpritePony]

Finally having fun on the ladder for the first time since the early meta... With Pachirisu, of all things!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1791294335

Encore is so useful, and the lil guy is bulkier than you might expect. I've won quite a few games and had him pull weight! Definitely outclassed but very fun!

lmfao. I loved watching that Slowking getting haxxed down. Like, at what point do you just say F it and hard switch? Also, what was that spread on Pachi to raw outpace Treads?

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

I think banded quaquaval is bettter than bu. It can fire off a +1 aqua step immediately. Quaquaval wants to fire off aqua steps asap to get speed boosts.

 

[PeachJuiceOwO]

Okay guys, time to make some intrusive and rhetorical questions about this new shape of the metagame we found ourselves in

1) How do you guys feel about both Orthworm and Espatra joining OU by usage, do you think the cyclizar/worm/shed tail debacle needs a revisit?

2) How do you feel about weather in OU, Pelipper rose without Floatzel, Great Tusk is the single most used Pokémon in the metagame yet Torkoal, a perfect partner for it, dropped, hail and sand are also almost none existent in the tier

3) Iron Hands dropped into UU, you guys think this was because he is bad or because of its "underrated" status

4)

Combined usage for OU (1695 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Great Tusk | 53.024% |
| 2 | Gholdengo | 43.681% |
| 3 | Chien-Pao | 32.768% |
| 4 | Dragonite | 21.332% |
| 5 | Iron Valiant | 21.020% |
| 6 | Garganacl | 20.876% |
| 7 | Kingambit | 18.666% |
| 8 | Rotom-Wash | 18.627% |
| 9 | Ting-Lu | 17.182% |
| 10 | Corviknight | 17.042% |


These here are the top 10 mons, make opinions, that is an order

1. Orthworm is an eh Pokémon in my opinion. I don’t think it’s that good, it kinda gets 1 shed tail and only if it is lucky. I consider it kinda “hey you technically can still use shed tail” I mean what else does it do? Steel type phys tank is good but what does it really bring other than shed tail? Espathra doesn’t really surprise me though. It’s good in OU

2. Weather! Pelliper being OU not Torkoal really is strange. I would consider sun better than rain in this gen for many reasons. Floatzel not rising with it is also a what? Lately I’ve been seeing a lot of trash Azumaril-is-only-abuser (And technically Scizor) rain teams in my low ladder area so I guess that might be the reason? Dunno really. Sand as ppl have mentioned has zero abusers and same as hail. Literally the closest thing I have seen to a hail team is the video with specs chien pao in it. And random glaceon team I have seen.

3. Iron hands, tons said they were underrated but idk. I am not a good player but I tried to justify it on my team, I tried to build around it, but I just couldn’t find a way! Slow, weak electric moves idk typing at all. I think someone needs to teach me (And prob some others) how to use this thing. The sets given in Smogon analysis didn’t seem appealing to me at all I think I need to be sold on it.

4. Garganacl needs ban, Azumaril deserves top 10. That is all.