Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #5886 — mechanics update ]

I'm not entirely sure what the core issue is, it may be torkoal lmao. Just the ability to enable all those boosts for free? Or it could just be that Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon are both capable of running on a sun team and both probably need a review for ubers (though obviously Mane faster than Moon). Just the multiplicative nature of band + inherent boost is a bit too much for any of the defensive mons to handle.
Yeah, I'm feeling a big problem with the Protosynthesis Pokemon is sun itself. It's too free to set up, and from there you just have a litany of threats that abuse it more than anything prior. Definitely see Flutter Mane needing a suspect: while it crumples to various physical priority, it also almost always forces a KO before you can revenge kill it. Undecided on Roaring Moon, however, particularly while Terastilizing is up in the air. Its movepool just doesn't serve it well imo and I think there's more options to take it on defensively.

On the flip side, the only Quark Drive Pokemon I really see as super dangerous is Iron Bundle. It's got similar problems as Flutter Mane in being super fast and hitting super-hard with a great movepool, but without the physical weaknesses. It's not a fun Pokemon to fight.

Speaking of priority that kills Flutter Mane, however, I've figured out the tech for Ceruledge that I think is gonna keep it if not in OU then in UU or BL.

Ceruledge @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat

This is super easy to setup and support, be it with screens, Shed Tail, and/or hazards. It's basically Blacephalon crossed with Mega Scizor, only without the need for Roost as it has Bitter Blade instead. Shadow Claw is of course another option, but I like Sneak both for the current Flutter Mane threat and to keep ahead of Jet Punch/Aqua Jet users.
 
Not a huge fan of liberal early quickbans UNLESS the plan is to retest them later as the meta settles. I also highly encourage at least waiting until stuff like revival blessings works properly (who knows what else isn’t working properly).

Despite that, I wouldn’t complain about a flutter mane quickban that is never retested at the very least lol.
Sadly quickbans like that tend to be a necessity early on so we can have some idea of what the meta even looks like
So besides Fluttermane, who I imagine is gonna get jettisoned...

Early gen has not been that bad for stall all things considering. Unlike Dynamax and a bit unlike Z Moves, there does seem to be the real ability for stall to utilize Terrastialize at least somewhat effectively. The one given to me was a Terrestialize Avalugg to fighting type, which does turn an otherwise garbage mon into a pretty good physical wall. It's actually really cool when you get to do something like this. I do think Terrestialize is probably broken, but only because we don't know the full extent of how to utilize it yet. IMO the current mons that are broken terrestializing are just broken mons. The adaptability part seems like it should be an issue but I can't say with confidence its not just incredibly busted mons making use of Adaptability right now.

The Pseudo legendary dark attackers Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu are... very very strong. Stall has an adequate wall in Blissey for Chi-Yu but the cut to your defensive stats + a potential spec/band pairing and then terrestializing on that is ridiculous. Even without Terrestializing, its very strong (overheat specs Chi-Yu can chunk a physical defense azumarill for 60-70%?). I've not seen enough of Chien Pao to know if this is another problem specific to less bulky teams or if it can do in a defensive team too, but so long as Avalugg is able to go Fighting type, I don't think its gonna be a stall issue.

Lastly... There's a real weird lack of good defensive grass types this gen. Amoongus is here but being ground neutral with the kind of teams Stall wants to run is a bit of a bother (Clod+your ghost type probably being ground weak). Hisui-Decidueye will probably be a welcome defensive addition as a fight/grass but as of right now, if you can't run Amoongus, you probably have no grass option at all other than Terrestializing something.
On my experience chien Pao is an absolute menace, the amount of times I played badly but managed to get a swords dance with it due to shed tail support and turn everything around is insane lol. Also helpful that it speed ties flutter mane and it can get sucker punch, which absolutely trounces it.
The one stall team I ran into with it, it put in quite a bit of luck because they ran clodsire+ corv + skeledirge, but tera avalugg actually looks like a good wall for it
 
There will be a post I make later today with things that are “on the radar” for the sake of transparency. It will either be here or linked here.

Of those Pokémon, there is a chance some will go. Maybe only 1-2 things. Maybe 3-4. I highly doubt any more than that. It won’t be drastic. We want to embrace the chaos and the initial fun, but we also want to slowly remove the things that dominate every game and take away from the enjoyment. It’s a balancing act
Is there any chance of banning last respects instead of houndstone? I get that bans are generally kept to individual pokemon but it could be a nice way to save time when basculegion is released
 

Finchinator

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Is there any chance of banning last respects instead of houndstone? I get that bans are generally kept to individual pokemon but it could be a nice way to save time when basculegion is released
Awesome question, yes.

Last Respects vs Houndstone is a really interesting topic. Normally when only one Pokemon gets a move or only one Pokemon is problematic with a move, we default to banning the Pokemon as there is no way to alienate the move as a broken element. However, we are in a position where we know the move Last Respects will get greater distribution with the release of Pokemon Home with strong abusers, which leads us to a crossroads: can we tier based off of future hypothesizes for the sake of minimizing current collateral damage of bans? It is still being discussed, but it is possible right now that we take action on Last Respects or Houndstone in the future depending on how discussions and gameplay go.
 
hmmm spmaming HO lately I found that u really cant counter it and its jsut "whos tera pokemon is more bonkers esp if they get it correct and get free setup from it such as normal type flutter mane going nuts on other flutter mane and just 6-0ing from there
 
One thing I’ve noticed does paladin even need wave crash, or even flip turn. The free switches have been pretty easy to come by so far and I almost always just wanna press jet punch
 

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Day 1 Thoughts:

Roaring Moon is overprepped for and honestly overrated.

Everybody loves this Pokemon. So far I think I've seen like what, 5 different tera typings on it? I believe Steel is the most common one, followed up by its own stabs for a juicy Adaptability boost. I've seen a grand total of one flying, which honestly is veeery underrated. You give it Booster Energy and enjoy broken Acrobatics. There was also a Ground one, Idk why.

Would like to give special shoutouts to that one dude who ran max bulk Iron Hands and Fighting Terra, as well as Iron Defense?????, that completely shutted down my Roaring Moon. There's an extensive prep for this mon because it was overhyped. Seriously try different mons, there are better setup alternatives. (See below)

Priority is very strong right now.

The entire meta is made from fast hard hitting mons with next to no bulk, thus making priority somewhat decent. Had some pretty good success with Band Scizor, Baxcalibur (Yes, for real), Band Dragonite Espeed. Which is important for my next point.

Pex is not as desperate as people think.

Pex still handily walls quite a lot of shit easily, the nerf on recover doesnt really affect its natural regeneration from Regenerator + its typing. Still a pretty decent helmet user that can switch into some stuff and punish Priority. (Especially that overly spammed dolphin.) I find it very easy to fire Toxic's off in the match, but that may just be me. Feel free to share your experience about this one.

Shed Tail is bullshit.

My fave combo is passing the Substitute to Dragonite. Sub benefits from Multiscale, means you gotta setup much more comfortably compared to Roaring Moon, plus better coverage provides more Terra options. Seriously try out Dragonite. Pretty sure this also makes base Volcarona insanely stupid as well.

Flutter mane is bullshit.

No context needed.

On Houndstone.

Not as broken as people think, normal types exists. Plus even with Scarf its relatively slow and there are quite a lot of Scarfers who can surpass Houndstone easily. Priority also threathens it majorly as it possesses no bulk. Havent seen a game where it just straight out wins or made a relevant impact, thinking that "OMG 300 BP" is an overreaction.
 
I'll edit this post later with a few calcs.
It's actual calc time! https://pokesports.org/pages/damage-calculator
EDIT: Ffs, apparently the various abilities do not work. I tried to see the calcs outside the sun and they didn't change. The Ruin abilities' calcs didn't change when I changed the ability to something else.
This is annoying :(

Vs Garganacl [Shaky check]
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Fairy Tera Type Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Ghost Tera Type Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Purifying Salt Garganacl: 104-124 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Garganacl Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 280-330 (111.5 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Garganacl Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ghost Tera Type Flutter Mane: 140-165 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs Ting-Lu [Checks once] EDIT: Ok, apparently the Ruin ability doesn't appear to work properly in the calculator! So... this is useless. I'll go run face first with Ting-Lu against FM and I'll see the results.
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 398-470 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Fairy Tera Type Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 532-628 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Ting-Lu Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 153-180 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Ting-Lu Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 304-358 (121.1 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs Chi-Yu [Checks once]
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chi-Yu: 153-180 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Fairy Tera Type Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Chi-Yu: 248-292 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Fire Tera Type Flutter Mane in Sun: 107-126 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ghost Tera Type Flutter Mane in Sun: 214-253 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
This is Scarfed Chi-Yu
Vs Tyranitar [Meh, but better than others]
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Fairy Tera Type Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 308-364 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 180-213 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 225-265 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Fairy Tera Type Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 224-268 (55.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fairy Tera Type Flutter Mane: 246-289 (98 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
112 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 195-231 (77.6 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

A couple notes about this scenario:
1) The opponent's team has Torkoal. So it's 6 vs 5,5.
2) Torkoal does not have a pivot move! FM has to come in through other means. Double switch, pivots from other mons.
3) Prothosyntesis needs Sun to work, so in a pinch another weather could help (but this just means the meta is more weather and I hate that.) This also means that FM does not have 5+ free turns to spam its STABs. (Just 3, lmao)
That said, a good opponent will be able to pivot around and have a couple turns throughout the match when FM is against something, with sun up.
This is NOT the only set FM can have, just the one that hits harder and makes sense to use (Specs with PS giving +1 Spatk is not something we're going to see, I guess. A scarf version of it it's possible, but still won't hit as hard.)

Last thing: I'm tired. I'll go to sleep now. I'll run more calcs tomorrow.
I think with CM Leftovers Flutter Mane, CM Life Orb.
 
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Theres a gen 9 calc on here https://pokesports.org/pages/damage-calculator

So far the AV Sylveon set I posted before has been doing fine for me, specifically against Flutter Mane but also vs other mons. Gholdengo is funny because you just tera steel when they think they can KO with Make it Rain and 2hko it with SBall. It's also a decent emergency button vs Iron Moth since you get 1 free turn when it clicks a poison move, and it handles Iron Bundle pretty well too. It's a bit of a copium answer nonetheless because its really weak to hazards before you tera, and rn playing OU is like wading through a a minefield of debris.

Anyway I wanted to talk about Tauros a bit

:sv/Tauros-Paldea-Water:
Tauros-Paldea-Water @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Aqua Jet

This thing is pretty cool as a glue mon. It stops Chien Pao not carrying Psychic Fangs, it is a decent switch-in to the donphans, and intimidate is really nice to have when everything is trying to set-up. It's coverage is nice too, CC Liquidation EQ hits a decent amount of mons for neutral, if not super effective, and it gets priority as well. It's not a super reliable defensive answer but it's been serving me well for sure. The EV spread is pretty lazy but I'm just waiting to see how the meta pans out before I'm going to do specialized spreads. You can probably put in more speed to outrun certain threats, for example:

232 Spe outruns Timid Gholdengo
152 Spe outruns Great Tusk, Glimmora, Quaquaval, and Ceruledge
104 Spe outruns Neutral Slither Wings
48 Spe outruns 0 Spe Iron Threads

Overall I don't think this mon will fit any team but it's kinda cool ngl. It just lacks utility, imagine this thing got knock off or something. Maybe a cool tech can be Raging Bull, if screens ever become omnipresent, since it's a normal-type brick break.
 
Awesome question, yes.

Last Respects vs Houndstone is a really interesting topic. Normally when only one Pokemon gets a move or only one Pokemon is problematic with a move, we default to banning the Pokemon as there is no way to alienate the move as a broken element. However, we are in a position where we know the move Last Respects will get greater distribution with the release of Pokemon Home with strong abusers, which leads us to a crossroads: can we tier based off of future hypothesizes for the sake of minimizing current collateral damage of bans? It is still being discussed, but it is possible right now that we take action on Last Respects or Houndstone in the future depending on how discussions and gameplay go.
Since you brought up Pokemon Home, it leads to another question with regards to metagame development. Ever since the leaks, we already know more or less which Pokemon will be available in SV via Home Transfer, including moves, abilities, and whatnot. I understand that we want to stay as close to cartridge as possible (or at least what's available on it at the time).

What is stopping OU from implementing the Home transfer Pokemon on Day 1? Would allowing Home transfers help speed up metagame development?
 
Just want to say that Iron Hands is an absolute menace in Electric Terrain. Super strong, nice bulk and a good offensive typing. Its Movepool is solid and only its Speed is a bit lacking, but it gets the job done. I have been running Pincurchin as a terrain setter with this Set:
989.png

Iron Hands @ Choice Band
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 92 SpD / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Wild Charge
- Ice Punch
- Fake Out

This switches in with 936 Attack if Terrain is up. Stab+Terrain Wild Charge OHKOs everything that isn't a resist and even some things that are, like Dragapult. And pretty much everything that can take a Wild Charge get's killed by Ice Punch or Drain Punch. Fake Out is there because everything else is also a threat and it doesn't get any other priority.
 
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Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
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OU & NU Leader
Since you brought up Pokemon Home, it leads to another question with regards to metagame development. Ever since the leaks, we already know more or less which Pokemon will be available in SV via Home Transfer, including moves, abilities, and whatnot. I understand that we want to stay as close to cartridge as possible (or at least what's available on it at the time).

What is stopping OU from implementing the Home transfer Pokemon on Day 1? Would allowing Home transfers help speed up metagame development?
Home developments are all theoretical in nature by definition and it is the philosophy of Smogon to resemble the playable game as much as possible (barring egregious competitive lapses -- this is just a quality of life shift for metagame development, which would not quality for that at all). There is also a chance this would upset the Pokemon Company, which creates a substantial liability issue.

Not that it is my decision as this would go well above my head, but there is no chance that we would jump ahead of official releases.
 
New Mechanics:

Terastralise

- Any Pokemon can use it
- You may change your Pokemon's type into a new pure type
- Your Pokemon will get a STAB boost to moves of its new Tera type while still retaining STAB boosts on moves matching its original typing
- If you Terastilise into a type your Pokemon already had, then your Pokemon will have a 2.0 boost (like Adaptability) on attacks with that type
- You may Terastilise once per battle, and a Pokemon that Terastilises will keep it until the end of the battle
- The new move Tera Blast is base 80 and will match the Tera type chosen, while also turning physical or special, depending on whichever stat is higher

Examples:

Garchomp turns into a Fire-Type = It becomes pure Fire-type and gets STAB on Fire-type, Ground, and Dragon-type attacks

Garchomp turns into a Ground-type = It becomes pure Ground-type and gets 2.0x STAB on Ground-type attacks, and the normal 1.5 STAB on Dragon-type attacks.

Snow

- Hail has been replaced with Snow
- Snow no longer damages Pokemon at the end of the turn
- Ice-type Pokemon receive a 1.5x boost to their Defense stat, much like how Rock-types have a Special Defense boost in Sand
How is Terastalizing implemented in Showdown though ? I do not find anywhere the option to change my Tera type.
 
Since you brought up Pokemon Home, it leads to another question with regards to metagame development. Ever since the leaks, we already know more or less which Pokemon will be available in SV via Home Transfer, including moves, abilities, and whatnot. I understand that we want to stay as close to cartridge as possible (or at least what's available on it at the time).

What is stopping OU from implementing the Home transfer Pokemon on Day 1? Would allowing Home transfers help speed up metagame development?
I mean you answered it yourself, we want to stay as close to cart as possible.

Anyway, with a heavy heart I have to admit that Flutter Mane is broken as fuck and probably needs to be quick banned lol, nothing except Clodsire stands a chance switching in and on top of that it has a couple great sets with different answers (Specs, CM, EB Spe) and is one of the best Tera users in the game. Sucker Punch Kingambit seems like the best way to scare it out, but that's a mind game in and of itself anyway. 135 base speed just shits on so much of everything else

While we're talking meta, Snow is a bit unimpressive right now but I can very much see it being really good in the future. When the power level is less extreme so that Cetitan can actually be a threat and, god willing, we eventually get Alolan Ninetales back, it could be a major threat. But as of now, it doesn't have anything broken as shit to carry it, and Day 1 of every meta is broken as shit versus broken as shit
 


I've been playing around with a Loaded Dice Breloom set, and I've been getting great results with it. With both Loaded Dice and Technician, Bullet Seed is at least a 150 power move, with a 50% chance to be a 187.5 power move. This is great compared to, say, a Life Orb Close Combat set because it is doesn't lower your defenses or chip you, it isn't walled by Ghost types (Looking at you, Flutter Mane), it allows substitutes to break, while still doing damage through them; particularly relevant as Cyclizar is running around. Hiere is the set I've been running:

Breloom @ Loaded Dice

EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Speed
Adamant Nature
Tera Type: Grass
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Spore
- Rock Tomb

Bullet Seed is the main reason for making this set, as I've described above. Mach Punch is there to give Breloom some use against faster teams, as even with just the Technician boost and STAB, it still gets the job done very well at countering threats like Roaring Moon, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar. Spore exists pretty much to ruin slower Pokes, as either the switch in will be pelted by Bullet Seed without being able to do anything, or they'll be setup bait for one of the gajillion setup sweepers running around. Rock Tomb is an interesting choice, and honestly Close Combat could also be defensible, but I went with Rock Tomb because it gets the Technician boost, and the speed drop comes in handy for dealing with switch ins that would otherwise outspeed Breloom, letting it Bullet Seed them to high heaven.

In short, this set is pretty much a hard counter to slower teams and Pokemon, with some options available for messing up faster teams. Maybe other items will become better as the meta develops, but overall Breloom seems to have a niche in early OU.
 
Roaring Moon is overprepped for and honestly overrated.
I completely agree. From where I'm sitting Roaring Moon just feels like a DD mon that's worse than the original Salamence and especially Mega Salamence while having a super middling defensive typing. Most fairy type and even fighting type moves remove it completely from play to the point where it's risky to even get a Dragon Dance off at all.
I feel like most people who think it should be banned and sent to Ubers somehow think it's going to be another M!Salamence despite no Aerilate, a worse defensive typing, and way less bulk. It's only really consistent to use right now because of tera typing for defense but even then having to use your tera type just for the sake of a pretty okay setup sweeper is kinda lame and is going to end up being way too predictable, especially with how much people are already building against it. I personally see it being in UUBL and being ran mostly with Choice Scarf instead of Dragon Dance and Booster Energy just because of how easy it is to remove it with incredibly common offensive types.
 
Roaring Moon does seem to suffer from a lack of "punch". I've tried it out on a Sun team and ultimately preferred Flutter Mane and Great Tusk over it. Even with Protosynthesis it was just so meh. I think part of it comes down to is basically stopped by Fairys and Fighting types and it doesn't really have great STAB moves to spam (it has Outrage but I don't want to be locked when an opponent can Teraform into a Fairy).

Don't need to say much that hasn't been said for Flutter Mane. I was using Specs and it ploughs through everything. I was Timid so not even Scarf mons outspeed it once I sent in Torkoal. I imagine there are other ways to break it.
 
I completely agree. From where I'm sitting Roaring Moon just feels like a DD mon that's worse than the original Salamence and especially Mega Salamence while having a super middling defensive typing. Most fairy type and even fighting type moves remove it completely from play to the point where it's risky to even get a Dragon Dance off at all.
I feel like most people who think it should be banned and sent to Ubers somehow think it's going to be another M!Salamence despite no Aerilate, a worse defensive typing, and way less bulk. It's only really consistent to use right now because of tera typing for defense but even then having to use your tera type just for the sake of a pretty okay setup sweeper is kinda lame and is going to end up being way too predictable, especially with how much people are already building against it. I personally see it being in UUBL and being ran mostly with Choice Scarf instead of Dragon Dance and Booster Energy just because of how easy it is to remove it with incredibly common offensive types.
The problem with this line of thinking is that most of the good fighting types are outsped by Roaring Moon; anything in the crowded 100 speed tier and below won't be able to outspeed a +Atk nature Roaring Moon, and the only 5 pokemon that can outspeed a +Spd nature Roaring Moon and have super effective typing against it are Flutter Mane, Chien Pao, Iron Bundle, Weavile, and Cyclizar, of which the former two are probably getting banned relatively quickly and the last one is questionable as well. You could run Lucario or Breloom Mach Punch to beat it, but that runs into the problems of Terastalizing. Currently, people are going Steel to counter Flutter Mane, but once it gets banned you'll probably start to see Flying, which completely ruins these attempts and gets a 110 power acrobatics by consuming Booster Energy. Heck, by running Torkoal you get an attack boost without even needing to consume an item, letting its power further be improved by Life Orb, or giving it a super-effective resisting berry to survive that critical first turn. The point is that if Roaring Moon gets a Dragon Dance and a Protosynthesis buff, there is very little that can be done to stop it.

Is it banworthy? We'll see, but I certainly don't think it'll be droping to UUBL any time soon.
 
Yeah, I'm feeling a big problem with the Protosynthesis Pokemon is sun itself. It's too free to set up, and from there you just have a litany of threats that abuse it more than anything prior. Definitely see Flutter Mane needing a suspect: while it crumples to various physical priority, it also almost always forces a KO before you can revenge kill it.
I don't see sun itself to be the problem right now. Right now it mainly enables Protosynthesis pokemon who are arguably broken without it (namely Flutter Mane, and maybe Roaring Moon), and aside from maybe Scovillain, there aren't any Chlorophyll abusers who seem strong enough to warrant sun as a whole to be banned. Not to mention people are messing around with Sand and Snow which would cut off the sun and any boosts it gives to Protosynthesis mons (that is if I'm understanding how that ability works correctly).

Also, ban Flutter Mane. Yes it is vulnerable to priority, but it is so bullshit to deal with defensively without resorting to specific answers like Clodsire (which gets torn apart by Psyshock) that you either have to play around it amazingly well or come in after it already claims a kill.
 
Clodsire @ Black Sludge
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Haze

Tried experimenting a bit (as in changing exactly 1 thing from the default set lol) by using haze as the 4th move on clodsire. results felt mixed. Lack of toxic makes it really passive against some stuff it could wall, but coming in ignoring boosts and taking away your foes boosts feels nice ngl. At the end, I still think putting toxic instead of haze is better overall, but maybe someone else could pull off it better than me
 
The problem with this line of thinking is that most of the good fighting types are outsped by Roaring Moon; anything in the crowded 100 speed tier and below won't be able to outspeed a +Atk nature Roaring Moon, and the only 5 pokemon that can outspeed a +Spd nature Roaring Moon and have super effective typing against it are Flutter Mane, Chien Pao, Iron Bundle, Weavile, and Cyclizar, of which the former two are probably getting banned relatively quickly and the last one is questionable as well. You could run Lucario or Breloom Mach Punch to beat it, but that runs into the problems of Terastalizing. Currently, people are going Steel to counter Flutter Mane, but once it gets banned you'll probably start to see Flying, which completely ruins these attempts and gets a 110 power acrobatics by consuming Booster Energy. Heck, by running Torkoal you get an attack boost without even needing to consume an item, letting its power further be improved by Life Orb, or giving it a super-effective resisting berry to survive that critical first turn. The point is that if Roaring Moon gets a Dragon Dance and a Protosynthesis buff, there is very little that can be done to stop it.

Is it banworthy? We'll see, but I certainly don't think it'll be droping to UUBL any time soon.
I definitely meant UUBL in the long run which I should've specified, especially since I doubt tera is going to last very long. But even as it is now it certainly isn't too much for OU, it getting off a Dragon Dance at all without wasting a terastalization is such a rarity that I feel like banning it from OU is hardly even worth considering, especially with how squishy it is. I've had it get OHKO'd by most good BP physical moves that it's neutral to very consistently, if you get EQ'd on your Roaring Moon it's basically dead and done. People are just overhyping it because terastalization makes it unpredictable, and unpredictability is the only defense RM really has.

Terastalization should also definitely be looked at before any bans outside of the obvious ones that don't need it to be busted (Last Respects, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Shed Tail, etc.) but that's a whole other topic.
 
I definitely meant UUBL in the long run which I should've specified, especially since I doubt tera is going to last very long. But even as it is now it certainly isn't too much for OU, it getting off a Dragon Dance at all without wasting a terastalization is such a rarity that I feel like banning it from OU is hardly even worth considering, especially with how squishy it is. I've had it get OHKO'd by most good BP physical moves that it's neutral to very consistently, if you get EQ'd on your Roaring Moon it's basically dead and done. People are just overhyping it because terastalization makes it unpredictable, and unpredictability is the only defense RM really has.

Terastalization should also definitely be looked at before any bans outside of the obvious ones that don't need it to be busted (Last Respects, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Shed Tail, etc.) but that's a whole other topic.
Why dont we ban it now and then retest it once terra is gone? its very hard to predict a meta-game like that.
 

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