Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #5886 — mechanics update ]

Question (probably dumb one):

I was testing arround with Wind Rider :sv/Brambleghast: and, in Wind Moves category, Sandstorm is listed.

Shouldn't Sandstorm/Stream activate Wind Rider at least once? It did not activated. It is actually immune to wind moves, so it shouldn't be damaged by Sandstrom, right? Because it did.
 

G-Luke

#Cunogate
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Why are so many post assuming you want to switch your spinner into the spinblocker?^^ It's the other way around! :D

Also there is so much other counterplay to hazards than attacking the incoming spin blocker, e.g. HDB, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, (Magic Coat), Taunt, Setting up your own hazards, use the free turns while the opponent sets up hazard to set up with a sweeper...

It's really not that hard to prepare for hazardstack, if you don't default to Corviknight which is blanked by Gholdi...
Just embrace the changing metagame, adapt to it, and don't be so lazy ;)
Magic Coat does not exist anymore. Magic Guard is not on any notable Pokémon, and if it were, it's not solving the hazard issue, if Taunt was a reliable means of hazard control it would be prevalent in every generation for this purpose (it is not). Boots do exist, but in a metagame where recovery is limited, having those free leftovers turns count now more than ever. "Use the free turns to set up a sweeper" what in the world are you talking about? I'm convinced people are just saying these without meaning anything because 3/4 of what you said is non applicable nonsense.

Magic Bounce is the only thing I'll give credit here, Hatterene is a decent underrated pick in the metagame right now. It hates Glimmora that run Sludge Bomb, but those do not seem to be the main move it runs right now so Hat can get by. Outside of Glim it has an ok matchup with other popular Spike setters like Clodsire, being able to comfortably beat non Poison Jab/Gunk Shot variants with Psyshock. My problem with it right now is how prepped people are for Pokémon of it's typing, Ghost types are EVERYWHERE, it's a Fairy type that can't switch into Darks and Tera Steel is one of the most popular Tera types in the game. But if this is what people gotta do in order to survive the hazard warped metagame, so be it.

Like most people are saying, if this thing existed in Gen 8, it would not be a problem Pokémon. All the common defoggers would have reliable means of combating it, and honestly most of the pivots in Gen 8 used Boots. Now though? Hazard control was hyper constricted, while hazards became hyper distributed, lopsiding the hazard game completely in the setter's favor. There should always be balance, and until these hazard control options of the past are here to combat it, I just do not think it's an overall positive impact on the metagame.
 
Mhm some of your points are true (I didn't even know Magic Coat doesn't exist anymore, ooopsi), and hazard stack is definitely more prominent than in previous gens. And Goldhengo fits this playstyle. Still the fact remains that only Corviknight is stopped completly cold by it, there are still various ways to combat hazards.

Speaking of Hatterene, I experimented a bit with Trickroom Teams, and while they suffer a bit from the multitude of prio moves being spammed on the ladder right now (ban Palafin), I still got some success.

1. What do you think are the best Trickroom setters right now?
2. Which mons could thrive with TR support?
 
what are everyone's thoughts on breloom rn? ive seen a handful on the ladder and outside of the odd pheal one theyve mostly been technician loaded dice with spore/bullet seed/mach punch and either sd or rock tomb as a 4th move. it doesnt seem too bad, with strong priority and absurdedly strong bullet seed, as well as sleep being so good around here. but it struggles to do anything against gholdengo/amoonguss and the best it can do vs corv is put it to sleep.
 
Really starting to feel like Iron Bundle is a massive constraint on teambuilding now, feels like I run into it every game and if you don't have some kind of answer to it it completely bowls over your whole team. Even if you do have a way to offensively check it, it's basically guaranteed a free kill if it gets in. It's still crazy to me that I'm saying this about a Delibird variant but I hope the Council bans it over the weekend
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I really think the bigger problem is Spikes and its increased distribution, not necessarily Gholdengo. If Gholdengo goes, people are just going to switch to Defiant Annihilape, which also spinblocks and beats both Defoggers at +2, and we’re going to have this same discussion again, and then people are going to start complaining about Ceruledge because it’s a spinblocker that eats both Defoggers for breakfast, and then Chandelure’s going to come back and people are going to complain about that. When does it stop?
 
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On the contrary, I'm not missing the point at all. The point here is that everyone wants to run Corv and remove hazards no questions asked. That is LITERALLY the only mon difference in the hazards removal game with and without Gholdengo that's any bit relevant

This ENTIRE DISCUSSION is "I think Corvinight should be able to clear hazards any time it clicks defog". I don't really get why we NEED that sort of guarantee for one specific mon when spinblocking has always been a thing and really all that's happened is the reintroduction of it as a mechanic.
If I had unlimited control, I would probably remove defog from corv entirely and give it to squishier offensive threats. There should be a risk reward to clicking defog that isn't present with corv since it can freely click the move with little downside unless they have zone or something. Combined with its momenting gaining u-turn, I really dont like that mon at all, or the way it encourages people to play the game, especially in gen8 style.

My main issue is that corv is the only appealing defogger besides Scizor and both get blocked by the Gold solidly. Besides that being forced into using only two mons that are so similar is very constricting. It feels like very lopsided play where the hazard stacks are overbearing with no counterplay except to spam the Boots and use only hazard immune mons when possible. Granted, the Boots are much better with knock off being limited, but I dont like how it feels like I need Boots on literally everything now. I feel constrained by that in the builder.

higher presence of spikes than last gen, but part of that is again the investment getting ruined for basically nothing. It wasn't a good trade last gen. Your hazards were not defensible. This generation, they are. To me, that's a quirk of the meta rather than the overbearing nature of one mon.
I think its self evidently obvious that the 'quirk of the meta' being entirely dependent on the presence of one specific mon's ability means that the 'quirk of the meta' actually is entirely due to that one mon's ability. If there was 5 or 10 pokemon that could switch into defog and block it, that would be another story entirely. This feels like an overpowered ability gone rogue rather than an intentional large scale redesign of the game.
 

Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
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OU & NU Leader
Gholdengo is awesome and there is a reason we added it as an honorable mention to the radar this time around, citing that it is able to provide a premium offensively while also providing a utility niche that we continue to monitor. I think that discussion of it is warranted, but I also urge people to heed caution when making unilateral claims about brokenness when we have never seen a concept quite like this ever before -- it may be ok to give it another few days to continue passing judgement so long as we keep a very close eye on it!
 
Just thought I'd post the team I've had good success with so far, about 65% winrate at the moment, but only 1250 elo.

Skeledirge @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Curse
- Yawn
- Protect

Iron Bundle @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Flip Turn
- Taunt
- Hydro Pump

Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Dragon Darts
- Dragon Dance
- Phantom Force

Iron Hands @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
- Iron Head

Iron Treads @ Focus Sash
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Heavy Slam

Tinkaton (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Encore
- Knock Off
- Gigaton Hammer
- Play Rough

Completely new to competitive, so any advise is really appreciated
 
I think Gholdengo's speed is ultimately what keeps it in check, because if it had like 110-120 base speed instead of like 84 that would probably make it OP and banworthy. Yes Gholdengo is annoying due to status move blocking, but I do think there is counterplay to it. Treads and Tusk can run knock to neuter Gholdengo as Gholdengo absolutely hates losing air balloon/lefties/assault vest etc, and can put the user of Gholdengo in very unfavorable positions; Tusk can't deal with scarfed gholdengo and may have a harder time getting in but AV treads can absolutely dominate Gholdengo as even with scarf Gholdengo may not be able to outspeed/okho Treads. Anyway while Gholdengo is really damn annoying it is not the unbeatable monster you guys are making it out to be, even if it is an annoying piece of shit.
We actually have two really good knock off users to deal with and Gholdengo is not as oppressive as something like deoxys-speed since its middling in the speed department. Ultimately, I believe faster harder hitting threats are probably the way to beat Gholdengo and prevent it from blocking hazards, as base 84 speed is quite an awkward speed tier... To put in perspective, Gholdengo is one speed slower than Quaquaval, a mon with base 85 speed that can boost its speed, and is also three speed points slower than great tusk, a mon that can pressure it pretty well if it is not scarfed. (Which means it has to use scarf to outspeed both of them.) My point being the way to beat gholdengo is to pressure it offensively with speedy threats, and the speedy threats as well as the few knock off users we have I believe keep it from being broken as Gholdengo absolutely hates losing its item and going up against stuff that outspeeds it. (That being said it is decently bulky but not super duper bulky so you have to be fast and hit hard to beat Gholdengo.)

Thanks for reading my talk on Gholdengo and why I do not think it is broken even if it is obnoxious, happy thanksgiving to everyone.
 
what are everyone's thoughts on breloom rn? ive seen a handful on the ladder and outside of the odd pheal one theyve mostly been technician loaded dice with spore/bullet seed/mach punch and either sd or rock tomb as a 4th move. it doesnt seem too bad, with strong priority and absurdedly strong bullet seed, as well as sleep being so good around here. but it struggles to do anything against gholdengo/amoonguss and the best it can do vs corv is put it to sleep.
:sv/breloom:
I’ve been running dice with Mach, bullet, CC, SD; From my experience so far dice has been pretty good. Guaranteed 4 hits makes it much more reliable and let’s it do a good chunk even to resists like Gholdengo. I’ve been dropping Spore just because Gholdengo and Amoongus really just stop that in its tracks.

+2 CC almost OHKOs Corviknight, and it’s guaranteed if you Tera Fighting.
 
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alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I’ve been running dice with Mach, bullet, CC, SD; From my experience so far dice has been pretty good. Guaranteed 4 hits makes it much more reliable and let’s it do a good chunk even to resists like Gholdengo. I’ve been dropping Spore just because Gholdengo and Amoongus really just stop that in its tracks.

+2 CC almost OHKOs Corviknight, and it’s guaranteed if you Tera Fighting.
Yeah, a guaranteed 150 power with a chance of it being 187.5 instead is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. Breloom is the kind of Pokémon that Loaded Dice were made for.
 
What’s the best team to run in sv ou rn? It’s a little hard to find teams for people that don’t know how to build them because of the new mons and the banning of other mons
Right now, you definitely need Palafin(preferably the bulk up set) and Iron Bundle. Hazard stacking is good as well so get a mon that can lay one or two types down as well as a spin blocker(preferably Gholdengo). You probably want some level defense so consider a tank or wall, and make sure you have a mon with priority such as Breloom, Chein-Pao, or Dragonite(Terra normal btw).
 
When, if ever, might Revival Blessing be implemented? It might not be broken, if only because you'd have to run fuckin pawmot solely so you can maybe have another go with a pokemon, at half health, and if the hazard meta is still around then good luck lol
 

Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
When, if ever, might Revival Blessing be implemented? It might not be broken, if only because you'd have to run fuckin pawmot solely so you can maybe have another go with a pokemon, at half health, and if the hazard meta is still around then good luck lol
It'll be implemented when our awesome team of coders and developers get there.

There are a lot of potential complications afloat and they have already done an awesome job getting everything else up, so let's just be patient when asking for anything further. Thanks for understanding!
 
People are sleeping hard on Garganacl. Probably my favorite mon of the generation so far, ability plus signature move are both super strong. Feels like it will be solidly OU without being broken. Honestly the signature move is pretty broken. This is the set I've been using:

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Recover

Tera type is flexible but I like fighting for STAB body press.

Here is an example of what it can do:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1715324836
How is it called a cure of it damaged the target?
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
It'll be implemented when our awesome team of coders and developers get there.

There are a lot of potential complications afloat and they have already done an awesome job getting everything else up, so let's just be patient when asking for anything further. Thanks for understanding!
Part of me is genuinely hoping that the devs just say “screw it” and decide that the sim is fine without Revival Blessing so we don’t have to go through the whole Ban Argument Kabuki Theater process again.
 
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