This weekend!
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #5886 — mechanics update ]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Nice! So at earliest tomorrow night or saturday morning. Cool to know!
Curing isn't referring to medicinal curing, but rather preservational curing, in regards to cured meats. I think it comes with the caveat if you injest the amount of salt you need to properly cure something, you are looking at serious health disasters in your immediate to not too distant future, depending on the organism.
Now that we more or less are guaranteed on our splash overlord's demise, and we all had our fill on Gholdengo and the hazard stack debacle, I wanna put forward my thoughts on some good Pokémon that are underrated now and will be rising up in the future.
Sandy Shocks @ Heavy Duty Boots / Booster Energy / Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Grass / Ice
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
- Spikes / Tera Blast
Sandy Shocks, he alright. Sandy is a really great offensive pivot, and with defensive Grasses being either neutral to Earth Power or lack any reliable recovery (Iron Apple aside!), Boots pivot sets can function quite fine without coverage and simply outlast their checks with Spikes + Volt Switch. The defoggers obviously do not want to switch in on him, and the prominent spinner elephants take big damage from Earth Power. Booster Energy is a cool option as well, but with the nerf effectively making Booster Energy a one time Life Orb instead of a one time Choice Specs, Booster Energy isn't that big on a pivot focused set. With the aforementioned water titans leaving by Saturday I hope, revengekilling slowly will reset around Choice Scarf and priority again, and I think this is a mean Choice Scarfer rn. I have Grass rn to ensure you can stay in on Ground and Water types when you revenge kill them more often, but if you want a wider pool of possible Pokémon to hit Ice is a fantastic Tera Type, just be mindful of the priority running around. All around great pivot and I hope to see a lot more of him.
In terms of next to go, the general consensus seems to be Palafin and Iron Bundle are you too strong for the current meta. Personally, I wholeheartedly agree with Palafin, but for Iron Bundle I don't see it as clear cut. I definitely see it as suspect worthy (probably would Ban), but I do think that a lot of the posts overrate the damage that Iron Bundle can actually put out. It does not 2HKO everything... I've been testing out some fat SpDef mons, (maybe like 40sih games) and have been theorymoning some others with the damage calc. The set I've seen the most complaints about has been Specs, but I know Encore/Taunt variants are out there.
SpDef Blankets
Losing Teleport really hurts Blissey, but I don't think its completely invalidated the Pokemon. It's an absolute menace on the special side, and its not like it didn't have viable moves to fill in the slot that freed up. I've been running Seismic Toss, Shadow Ball, Thunder Wave, Softboiled. This set lets in the Donphans a bit too easily, but I've found success otherwise.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
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We are a bit starved for Fairy types at the moment, so these two definitely have merit in this limited mon meta. These admittedly have a bit more trouble coming in on Specs Hydro's but they can get it done if at full, and can quite easily Wish/Synthesis back up to full. And because of Bundles garbage SpDef, cleanly 2HKO with STAB or just straight up kill after rocks damage.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Florges: 150-177 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A bit more passive into Iron Bundle than they other 3, but still a SpDef blanket.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
For All of these, if the opponent is the Taunt/Encore variant, you'll have some more interesting sequences of either calling the Taunt and attacking, or clicking Recovery as they pivot out. However, the damage will be significantly less, so you have a turn or two of to be wrong.
AV Checks
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/
Most of these are getting 2HKO'd by the right move on Specs, but can put in work against non-Specs or if brought in safely as a check.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 175-207 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slither Wing: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 128 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 156-186 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 190-225 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 187-222 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO
Defensive Tera Answers
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/
The idea here is pretty simple, take a Water Absorb mon and make it Terastilize into something that resists Freeze Dry. Definitely sucks to have use your Tera in this way, but should be mentioned nonetheless. Clodsire already has well established viability, and I think Gastro probably deserves a bit more love now that it finally got the hazards it always wanted.
I was a bit reluctant to include this section because it opens the door to the other side as well, What if Iron Bundle Tera's? And the answer is that you're going to have a tough time! The extra power boost of Tera Water makes Hydro Pumps harder to sponge with the special walls, particular if its a Taunt variant, as now it doesn't necessarily have to switch out!
I think this is where we are starting to get to the point of discovering Pokemon where Terastilizing is taking them from potentially reasonable in a non-Tera meta, to broken in a Tera-legal meta. For FlutterMane, Houndstone, and Palafin, Tera wasn't making or breaking them; but I think Iron Bundle is where that stops. So, at this point, is Terastilizing the problem or Iron Bundle?
Offensive Checks
Not going to list all of these off, but priority and scarfers can give this guy a hard time truly finishing up a clean.
Bad but fun
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I've built this team and it's doing well, but Gholdengo is still a pain sometimes. Suggestions for improvement would be really helpful.
Choco Bomb (Clodsire) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Recover
Mossy Curse (Wo-Chien) @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
Crimson Poison (Toxapex) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Baneful Bunker
- Poison Jab
- Recover
- Haze
Ruinous Titan (Ting-Lu) @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Throat Chop
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Earthquake
Shadow Knight (Corviknight) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Roost
Primal Magic (Scream Tail) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Disable
- Psyshock
- Stealth Rock
Choco Bomb (Clodsire) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Recover
Mossy Curse (Wo-Chien) @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
Crimson Poison (Toxapex) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Baneful Bunker
- Poison Jab
- Recover
- Haze
Ruinous Titan (Ting-Lu) @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Throat Chop
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Earthquake
Shadow Knight (Corviknight) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Roost
Primal Magic (Scream Tail) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Disable
- Psyshock
- Stealth Rock
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
You said “it doesn’t 2HKO everything” but you’ve just posted a bunch of mons that get 2HKO’d by Specs + Spikes. Considering how easy it is to set hazards and how hard it is to remove them, you need to factor Spikes into every calc you do right now. That’s what makes Iron Bundle such a problem—most of its so-called “checks” start the battle with 75% HP. Blissey and Chansey are the only things that can reliably switch into Iron Bundle at the moment, unless you’re using something like Tera Steel Water Absorb, which denies you Tera on the rest of your team.
In terms of next to go, the general consensus seems to be Palafin and Iron Bundle are you too strong for the current meta. Personally, I wholeheartedly agree with Palafin, but for Iron Bundle I don't see it as clear cut. I definitely see it as suspect worthy (probably would Ban), but I do think that a lot of the posts overrate the damage that Iron Bundle can actually put out. It does not 2HKO everything... I've been testing out some fat SpDef mons, (maybe like 40sih games) and have been theorymoning some others with the damage calc. The set I've seen the most complaints about has been Specs, but I know Encore/Taunt variants are out there.
SpDef Blankets
Losing Teleport really hurts Blissey, but I don't think its completely invalidated the Pokemon. It's an absolute menace on the special side, and its not like it didn't have viable moves to fill in the slot that freed up. I've been running Seismic Toss, Shadow Ball, Thunder Wave, Softboiled. This set lets in the Donphans a bit too easily, but I've found success otherwise.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
We are a bit starved for Fairy types at the moment, so these two definitely have merit in this limited mon meta. These admittedly have a bit more trouble coming in on Specs Hydro's but they can get it done if at full, and can quite easily Wish/Synthesis back up to full. And because of Bundles garbage SpDef, cleanly 2HKO with STAB or just straight up kill after rocks damage.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Florges: 150-177 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A bit more passive into Iron Bundle than they other 3, but still a SpDef blanket.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
For All of these, if the opponent is the Taunt/Encore variant, you'll have some more interesting sequences of either calling the Taunt and attacking, or clicking Recovery as they pivot out. However, the damage will be significantly less, so you have a turn or two of to be wrong.
AV Checks
Most of these are getting 2HKO'd by the right move on Specs, but can put in work against non-Specs or if brought in safely as a check.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 175-207 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slither Wing: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 128 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 156-186 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 190-225 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 187-222 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO
Defensive Tera Answers
The idea here is pretty simple, take a Water Absorb mon and make it Terastilize into something that resists Freeze Dry. Definitely sucks to have use your Tera in this way, but should be mentioned nonetheless. Clodsire already has well established viability, and I think Gastro probably deserves a bit more love now that it finally got the hazards it always wanted.
I was a bit reluctant to include this section because it opens the door to the other side as well, What if Iron Bundle Tera's? And the answer is that you're going to have a tough time! The extra power boost of Tera Water makes Hydro Pumps harder to sponge with the special walls, particular if its a Taunt variant, as now it doesn't necessarily have to switch out!
I think this is where we are starting to get to the point of discovering Pokemon where Terastilizing is taking them from potentially reasonable in a non-Tera meta, to broken in a Tera-legal meta. For FlutterMane, Houndstone, and Palafin, Tera wasn't making or breaking them; but I think Iron Bundle is where that stops. So, at this point, is Terastilizing the problem or Iron Bundle?
Offensive Checks
Not going to list all of these off, but priority and scarfers can give this guy a hard time truly finishing up a clean.
Bad but fun
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Why would anyone want to use that move? Better use Draco Meteor even with the reduction in SpA.
Well, Baxcalibur has 145 base attack and underwhelming 75 Special Attack. Glavie Rush is nearly doing double damage.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
What move, Glaive Rush? Because Baxcalibur has base 145 Attack and Dragon Dance but only base 75 Sp. Atk. Uninvested Glaive Rush does about as much as fully invested Draco. Also because your opponent isn’t living a +1 Glaive Rush unless they resist, in which case they’re vulnerable to Icicle Crash or Earthquake.
even with the down side of Glaive Rush especially if you are using Dragon Dance the downsides are made up for the ability to beat things by being faster
I italicised "everything" because I wanted to point out that there is a small handful of mons that are not 2HKO'd Specs clicking the right move. The SpDef blanket mons can all reasonably run Boots instead of Lefties. Not to mention 2HKO'ing with Specs comes with asterisks. You have to get the prediction right between Pump and Freeze Dry. And just like how the defensive mons are getting worn out by hazards, so is Bundle, which puts it into range of priority very quickly.
Your point about Spikes is interesting though, if there were action taken that reduced the amount of hazard presence, would that significantly impact how balanced/unbalanced you see Iron Bundle? Point here is kind of similar to the what I was talking about with Tera and Bundle, i think Iron Bundle brokenness comes from things that aren't solely related to just it uniquely. So, should we be taking action elsewhere (Tera, Gholdengo/Hazards)?
Not necessarily, with Recovery moves being nerfed and nearly every Regenerator being weak to Iron Bundle still allows it to apply more than enough pressure. Not being able to 2HKO stuff doesnt equal not making progress. You are significantly and consistently weakening the enemy team regardless, all you have to do is not risk unnecessary rolls, switch out and comeback again lol. The presence of hazards and Gholdengo just makes that easier. Its still a very strong Pokemon on its own.
If the mons you posted run Boots instead of Lefties they all lose their guaranteed 3hko status and tip over into in chances to 2hko. Not to mention the sheer hilarity of locking the bulky walls into recovery moves via Encore and burning their precious PP while you fish for freezes with Freeze Dry. It's never as clear cut as your sanitized calcs paint it to seem. Specs also just beats everything listed here outside of burning your Tera on a Clod or worse Vaporeon once Terastilizing is involved, Quite honestly the only thing keeping it in check is silly Hydro Pump misses, but you never brought those up so...
Fun Fact: A Jolly Scyther can outspeed Iron Bundle after +1 Spe Boost and it can OHKO it with +2 Trailblaze, but Scizor can't do the same becuase of its 65 Base Speed
+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Trailblaze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 260-308 (102.3 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Trailblaze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 260-308 (102.3 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ironically didn't bring up Hydro misses because I didn't want to see dumb replies saying thats not a valid reason its kept in check. Guess I lose either way?
I just picked quick spreads for Sylveon and Florges, you can make spreads that avoid 2HKOs. Yeah it does a lot, and its not simple to keep them at 100% the whole game so they can be answers, but they do not get 2HKO'd......
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 138-163 (38.3 - 45.2%)
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%)
And if it's not specs, it doesn't necessarily force a recover. Wish still has 16PP. You can fish for Freezes with freeze dry if you want, but that shit ain't free. Freeze dry damage is pitiful compared to Hydro, and if you stay in to fish a freeze, you're getting OHKO'd after rocks.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 190-225 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
And really feel like you missed the point of the post if you think I'm trying using these calcs to be clear cut that Bundle is okay. I quite literally said I don't think it's clear cut.
I'm not finding AV treads to be a reliable spinner either.
It takes damage on entry for one so its always going to be chipped. It has to come in on something that doesn't immediately threaten a 2hko which isn't a large list with the threats of the meta atm. You have to dodge, water, fire, fighting, ground stab which is wide spread. never mind strong neutral bombs like Chi Yu pulse...
I guess you can reliably come in on Gholdengo once or twice (I think you take 25-30% a sball, more if specs) but what if they focus blast on the obvious switch in. or trick. or its scarfed and it just stays in to weaken you for the next thing to come in and preserve hazards. Its far from a easy solution and if this is the best the tier has for removal we're fucked. Basically every match I've played recently is hazard stack because its incredibly consistent. I guess you could dedicate half your team to removal if but with the array of threats and checks you need I don't think thats feasible.
Av treads, corv, hatterne teams with taunt leads coming up lol. If this is just how gen 9 is going to be till home it is what it is though. Palafin is obviously broken but I'm not really seeing it with Bundle. It has enough counter play and its not strong enough without boosts where its just running through teams.
It takes damage on entry for one so its always going to be chipped. It has to come in on something that doesn't immediately threaten a 2hko which isn't a large list with the threats of the meta atm. You have to dodge, water, fire, fighting, ground stab which is wide spread. never mind strong neutral bombs like Chi Yu pulse...
I guess you can reliably come in on Gholdengo once or twice (I think you take 25-30% a sball, more if specs) but what if they focus blast on the obvious switch in. or trick. or its scarfed and it just stays in to weaken you for the next thing to come in and preserve hazards. Its far from a easy solution and if this is the best the tier has for removal we're fucked. Basically every match I've played recently is hazard stack because its incredibly consistent. I guess you could dedicate half your team to removal if but with the array of threats and checks you need I don't think thats feasible.
Av treads, corv, hatterne teams with taunt leads coming up lol. If this is just how gen 9 is going to be till home it is what it is though. Palafin is obviously broken but I'm not really seeing it with Bundle. It has enough counter play and its not strong enough without boosts where its just running through teams.
I appreciate the effort that went into this post but I really think this is just proof of how broken Iron Bundle considering that you hardly ever see any of these mons that you talk about outside of Clodsire and Iron Hands, and those two require either Tera or AV respectively to stand a chance against Bundle. Seriously positing the idea of AV Slither Wing or Magnezone is just lol. Mons like Blissey, Florges etc. are just too passive in this meta in most circumstances and can't even cripple things with Toxic anymore. The reason you don't see Blissey is because it never really accomplishes anything outside of maybe t waving and something and setting up rocks; it's pretty easy to burn through 8 uses of Soft-Boiled, and if you get knocked it's useless. Florges and Sylveon on the other hand are completely free switch ins for Gholdengo, Iron Treads and the like (unless you Terastilize them, but why would you?). Not to mention most of these mons are both Spikes bait and lose the ability to check Iron Bundle if they're taking Spikes damage. Even with regards to priority and scarfers, Iron Bundle has good physical bulk and resists Jet Punch and Ice Shard, and if Iron Bundle itself is running Scarf or using Booster Energy it's faster than every Scarfer in the tier besides Pult, so your options against this thing are incredibly limited
In terms of next to go, the general consensus seems to be Palafin and Iron Bundle are you too strong for the current meta. Personally, I wholeheartedly agree with Palafin, but for Iron Bundle I don't see it as clear cut. I definitely see it as suspect worthy (probably would Ban), but I do think that a lot of the posts overrate the damage that Iron Bundle can actually put out. It does not 2HKO everything... I've been testing out some fat SpDef mons, (maybe like 40sih games) and have been theorymoning some others with the damage calc. The set I've seen the most complaints about has been Specs, but I know Encore/Taunt variants are out there.
SpDef Blankets
Losing Teleport really hurts Blissey, but I don't think its completely invalidated the Pokemon. It's an absolute menace on the special side, and its not like it didn't have viable moves to fill in the slot that freed up. I've been running Seismic Toss, Shadow Ball, Thunder Wave, Softboiled. This set lets in the Donphans a bit too easily, but I've found success otherwise.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
We are a bit starved for Fairy types at the moment, so these two definitely have merit in this limited mon meta. These admittedly have a bit more trouble coming in on Specs Hydro's but they can get it done if at full, and can quite easily Wish/Synthesis back up to full. And because of Bundles garbage SpDef, cleanly 2HKO with STAB or just straight up kill after rocks damage.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Florges: 150-177 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A bit more passive into Iron Bundle than they other 3, but still a SpDef blanket.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
For All of these, if the opponent is the Taunt/Encore variant, you'll have some more interesting sequences of either calling the Taunt and attacking, or clicking Recovery as they pivot out. However, the damage will be significantly less, so you have a turn or two of to be wrong.
AV Checks
Most of these are getting 2HKO'd by the right move on Specs, but can put in work against non-Specs or if brought in safely as a check.
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 175-207 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slither Wing: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 128 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 156-186 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 190-225 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 187-222 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO
Defensive Tera Answers
The idea here is pretty simple, take a Water Absorb mon and make it Terastilize into something that resists Freeze Dry. Definitely sucks to have use your Tera in this way, but should be mentioned nonetheless. Clodsire already has well established viability, and I think Gastro probably deserves a bit more love now that it finally got the hazards it always wanted.
I was a bit reluctant to include this section because it opens the door to the other side as well, What if Iron Bundle Tera's? And the answer is that you're going to have a tough time! The extra power boost of Tera Water makes Hydro Pumps harder to sponge with the special walls, particular if its a Taunt variant, as now it doesn't necessarily have to switch out!
I think this is where we are starting to get to the point of discovering Pokemon where Terastilizing is taking them from potentially reasonable in a non-Tera meta, to broken in a Tera-legal meta. For FlutterMane, Houndstone, and Palafin, Tera wasn't making or breaking them; but I think Iron Bundle is where that stops. So, at this point, is Terastilizing the problem or Iron Bundle?
Offensive Checks
Not going to list all of these off, but priority and scarfers can give this guy a hard time truly finishing up a clean.
Bad but fun
+1 252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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How the fuck are you getting a Swords Dance AND a Speed boost in front of Iron Bundle exactly?
A lot of peoples arguments just seem to come down to "hazards are going up and I can't get rid of them without my mon being weakened!". My question is; is that not the point of spending precious turns in an offensively orientated meta-game where spinning comes at a potential cost? Its not like gen 8 or gen 2 where getting hazards up costed you not very much in the grand scheme, and in older gens spin blockers have always been a prevalent and a problem for teams to get around because defog didn't even exist back then so why is Gholdengo the issue?
People are using suicide leads (aka being 1 mon down or being setup fodder for cyclizar) as their hazard setter very commonly and if thats how valuable hazards are in the metagame I don't see why corviknight being able to invalidate that style of play being more fair than Gholdengo another valuable team slot alongside the suicide lead to block corviknight. Gholdengo as a pokemon is pretty much required to run scarf or balloon on these style of teams heavily limiting its options so its not like its switch ins are non existant?
I just don't understand why people are pointing at Gholdengo as the problem when it seems like all their arguments seem to be referencing the hazard setters as the issue.
Assault Vest Goodra handles Iron Bundle very well even it's has a Ice Weakness, its 150 Special Defense allow to be 2HKOd by Choice Specs Iron Bundle. It can also OHKO it with either Draco Meteor or Thunderbolt.
Sylveon can do the same and it doesn't have a Ice weakness, but it needs Stealth Rock or Spikes to OHKO Iron Bundle with an Hyper Voice
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 200-236 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Sylveon: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even reading through the several posts pointing out how problematic it is, I kind of agree and feel like Gholdengo is just a mon that atm forces out people from their hazard control comfort zone that pretty much got established since the prevalence of Defog and its good users in the meta in gen 6
Someone pointed it out i think, but the problem isn't Gholdengo itself but rather the plethora of pokemons that benefit from hazards staying on the field that people find suffocating to play against
I think it is a bit reminiscient of older gens myself, in Gen 4 the hazard dynamic was as suffocating because you wouldn't even know if your opponent had a spinblocker, and SR alone were worth losing a mon over it, and in Gen 5 a lot of teams opted for literally no hazard removal either. And i think people were fine playing with that for the most part? I can't speak for Gen 3 cause i have an even more limited knowledge on it but i know Spikes were everywhere not due to its distribution but mainly because it was attached to one of the best pokemon in the tier. But in the end, in many aspects, it was something to consider in the builder so i don't really see how Gholdengo is so different
Taking any action against it would be unwise imo, but don't forget, numbers don't lie and it is very much one of the main component that characterizes the metagame we're currently playing in
I really just want to accurately assert if people's problem is in fact that hazards can constantly stick in, in which case, why would it be so much more different than Magic Guard, Magic Bounce or even Defiant to some extent, would you think the same if Gholdengo for example had Competitive instead?
Goodra could not switch in and Sylveon will struggle to switch in a hazard heavy meta
No defense investment Fairy type
It sucks that some of my favourite Pokémon are bad at competitive. Gardevoir seems unusable.
We're like 10 days into the Meta, I get that some of the stuff mentioned was kind of fringe but we really shouldn't be closing our minds. Just because it isn't used much right now doesn't mean its not viable. It took a while for people to catch onto Garganacl and Annihilape and early on tiering predictions didn't really have those 2 that highly ranked. There's still time and space for developments to happen. Yeah, the fat spdef mons are more passive, but it still blankets special attackers. I've been pretty happy with what Blissey does for me in games. To each there own i guess
Priority-wise, I'd say Bundle is pretty middle of the road, resist Jet Punch, resist Ice Shard, neutral Bullet, neutral sucker, neutral first imp, super effective mach. Since its all physical pretty hard to get Bundle to drop from full, but from 60% has been possible in my experience, which isn't too tall a task with hazards.
Generally feel like scarfers are bit under explored at the moment. There's plenty of mons that outspeed unboosted Bundle with a scarf that can OHKO it, like the rotoms. As for a speed Boosted Bundle, then it doesn't pack as much a punch! Definitely a threatening cleaner, but there are defensive outs.
Overall, I think Iron Bundle is probably too much, just don't think it's as obviously broken and QB hammer-able as Palafin and the other two.
Also AV Slitherwing ain't that bad
. Definitely, struggles with the hazard centric meta, but it grabs some nice KOs on things thinking you die and having first impression is great.