Terra steel water absorb coldsire wall megadelibird
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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Balance isnt has out but both gholdengo hazzard stack and shed tail ho kinda destroy you
maybe I'm alone on this one, but I think that we should hold off on banning palafin until bundle is banned. I could be wrong, but I feel like it won't be too much on its own, it's having to deal with Bundle that makes it so threatening.
Pluim
formerly goodra4thewin
Been seeing some dislike towards banning things this early in the life of Gen 9 OU. My thoughts on it.
- Banning ONLY outright broken and stupidly uncompetitive Pokemon is fine in my eyes for sure.
- If worst, in a future era once things settle, if the Pokemon is thought to be okay in OU it can be unbanned or tested.
I think we all agree that banning Pokemon has good enough reasons, it's just the timing I se having issues.
The 2 points I see people complaining about: Not letting the meta develop and having little chance to play with the new (broken) Pokemon.
- Letting the meta develop wouldn't change much if a pokemon is obviously and outright broken in this point in time. I can't see any of the currently banned Pokemon and likely soon to be (Palafin and Iron Bundle) being considered not broken in a week or two in time. (Unless a tera ban but even then that's debatable). If they are then it would certainly be a minority outcome. So, I don't think there is any reason why some stuff cannot get banned even if the meta is still in early stages. Also to mention that the meta will be much slower in developing with Pokemon like Flutter Mane dominating every match.
The second point is a stronger but I still disagree.
- There are still places to use the new Pokemon, mainly Ubers. The only difference is the addition of Koraidon and Moraidon (Albeit this does change things a lot, but it is still a good place to try broken OU Pokemon
- Pokemon that are COMPLETELY busted in OU are very likely to be good in Uber.
- Pokemon such as Palafin over-centralise the meta, such that in using it and making sure to have counters to it actually LIMITS the new Pokemon you can try out. Who wants to just have fun using the new Pokemon but get wrecked by the Dolphin every game?
It would be worse in an over-centralised meta-game to use new Pokemon if you get 6-0'd every game, yet alone have a fun competitive mode that would keep players and attract new ones so it ends up being a loss loss.
- Banning ONLY outright broken and stupidly uncompetitive Pokemon is fine in my eyes for sure.
- If worst, in a future era once things settle, if the Pokemon is thought to be okay in OU it can be unbanned or tested.
I think we all agree that banning Pokemon has good enough reasons, it's just the timing I se having issues.
The 2 points I see people complaining about: Not letting the meta develop and having little chance to play with the new (broken) Pokemon.
- Letting the meta develop wouldn't change much if a pokemon is obviously and outright broken in this point in time. I can't see any of the currently banned Pokemon and likely soon to be (Palafin and Iron Bundle) being considered not broken in a week or two in time. (Unless a tera ban but even then that's debatable). If they are then it would certainly be a minority outcome. So, I don't think there is any reason why some stuff cannot get banned even if the meta is still in early stages. Also to mention that the meta will be much slower in developing with Pokemon like Flutter Mane dominating every match.
The second point is a stronger but I still disagree.
- There are still places to use the new Pokemon, mainly Ubers. The only difference is the addition of Koraidon and Moraidon (Albeit this does change things a lot, but it is still a good place to try broken OU Pokemon
- Pokemon that are COMPLETELY busted in OU are very likely to be good in Uber.
- Pokemon such as Palafin over-centralise the meta, such that in using it and making sure to have counters to it actually LIMITS the new Pokemon you can try out. Who wants to just have fun using the new Pokemon but get wrecked by the Dolphin every game?
It would be worse in an over-centralised meta-game to use new Pokemon if you get 6-0'd every game, yet alone have a fun competitive mode that would keep players and attract new ones so it ends up being a loss loss.
If tera gets banned I would like to see Palafin reintroduced at some point. I wouldn't risk messing up a stable meta, so adding it when a dlc drops and then quickly banning it again if its obviously still broken without tera (probably most likely scenario), or giving it a proper suspect if its not clear either way, could be interesting. I see it as similar to reintroducing Kyurem-B last meta when all the broken mons got added with dlc and were given a chance for like a week. I doubt Palafin would stick around as long as Kyurem-B did, but its worth giving it a shot without tera if there is a similar opportunity.
Iron Bundle doesn't seem like it cares much about tera and is just broken and should stay Uber.
Iron Bundle doesn't seem like it cares much about tera and is just broken and should stay Uber.
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
I've only been laddering now for a day or two, but I wanted to talk about Espathra because I think it's going a bit under the radar as a gimmicky set up sweeper with a good offense MU that abuses a ton of the common defensive Pokemon going around. I don't know who at Gamefreak though giving a Pokemon with CM and Speed Boost Stored Power was a good idea, but here we are. The only thing really holding back Espathra are it's mediocre stats and pure Psychic typing, but with Tera Fairy, you can eat Sucker Punch's from the likes of Chien-Pao or Kingambit. Alternatively, you can run a bulkier set or one of the Terrain Seeds over Leftovers to add to its set up opportunities, although it already has a good time setting up on defensive mons like Amoonguss, Corv (if Body Press), and the occasionally Clodsire or Wo-Chien. Taunt, Encore, or Shed Tail support also adds loads to its offensive capabilities, since after a free CM, it often just runs rampant because of the passive power up potential of Speed Boost.
Some Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1717978128-qozknyt7dc3fdnrnxn8ehzz5ejartl9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1719032668-i2c6q6qnnbys60pxhw15u0nmryt80tspw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1717032617-dy5n9ua1dsvep70162a7q0hggdc1z15pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1717026400-xx95wmf3jbbfk824b7lwyoq7uzq5iu8pw
I prefer sub on this set because if you can keep a sub up vs your setup fodder, you don't have to worry about jet punch revenge killing you, and can also block sucker punch if you end up having to tera something else. Protect might be overall better though especially in a post Palafin meta.
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
I've only been laddering now for a day or two, but I wanted to talk about Espathra because I think it's going a bit under the radar as a gimmicky set up sweeper with a good offense MU that abuses a ton of the common defensive Pokemon going around. I don't know who at Gamefreak though giving a Pokemon with CM and Speed Boost Stored Power was a good idea, but here we are. The only thing really holding back Espathra are it's mediocre stats and pure Psychic typing, but with Tera Fairy, you can eat Sucker Punch's from the likes of Chien-Pao or Kingambit. Alternatively, you can run a bulkier set or one of the Terrain Seeds over Leftovers to add to its set up opportunities, although it already has a good time setting up on defensive mons like Amoonguss, Corv (if Body Press), and the occasionally Clodsire or Wo-Chien. Taunt, Encore, or Shed Tail support also adds loads to its offensive capabilities, since after a free CM, it often just runs rampant because of the passive power up potential of Speed Boost.
Some Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1717978128-qozknyt7dc3fdnrnxn8ehzz5ejartl9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1719032668-i2c6q6qnnbys60pxhw15u0nmryt80tspw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1717032617-dy5n9ua1dsvep70162a7q0hggdc1z15pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1717026400-xx95wmf3jbbfk824b7lwyoq7uzq5iu8pw
I’ve seen some of Roost, Substitute, and Protect — I think right now Protect is best on hyper offense/setup spam with lead hazard teams just because the free turn and momentum swing that come with it, but I think Substitute is probably best on teams that can afford it. Haven’t loved Roost as I don’t find it applicable in as many situations though.
Overall, I’d say Stored Power Espathra is super underrated rn. It can quickly snowball past Gholdengo and other would-be checks. Also seen Tera Blast with Fighting, but that seems less consistent to me.
You know what all the Tera talk in particular is reminding me of (accurate or not from my limited context and exposure)? The Gen 6 suspects on Aegislash in XY. Specifically because the concerns seem to come up for how influential they are on the Meta moreso than an outright consensus the mechanic is broken/unhealthy enough to ban (which in a sense tells how much power Aegislash in Gen 6 meta brought to team building).
Terastalizing is clearly proving an influential mechanic, being discussed on Sweepers, Wallbreakers, and even certain utility Pokemon because of how heavily it can shake up a match when applied right and the importance of even one turn's momentum in a metagame made heavily offensive by several factors Tera is included amongst. At the same time there isn't an outright agreement on if the mechanic is unbalanced inherently, has problematic abusers (whether Tera pushes them high like Roaring Moon or simply adds to an OP kit like Bundle), or could be a fair mechanic that is simply too hard to judge fairly in the volatile early period of the game.
The comparison to Aegislash I mentioned comes up because I got the similar impression that, while the mon was S-Rank and HEAVILY impactful (dictating coverage choices on several attackers and heavily limiting certain types like Psychic and Fairy that struggled with it), there was a lot of discussion about if its centralizing effect was itself worthy of the mon being banned when it did a lot but didn't exactly do so in easy use (compared to Quick Bans like Fluttermane for example being "get me on field and win game"). It kind of brought some discussion about how the Suspect candidates were being approached and what was the aim of the Metagame by testing them, as Aegislash centered the game on itself heavily but didn't necessarily remove skill from the match on a micro or macro level the way we think of most problem mons.
Of course Aegislash was one mon, Terastalizing is a mechanic available to literally everything, so it casts a much wider net by default to remove it. In light of this point in particular, I think Terastalize at large should wait on action until we've had both time and evaluated a few of the abusers to see if the new ones popping up after continue to be unhealthy
Terastalizing is clearly proving an influential mechanic, being discussed on Sweepers, Wallbreakers, and even certain utility Pokemon because of how heavily it can shake up a match when applied right and the importance of even one turn's momentum in a metagame made heavily offensive by several factors Tera is included amongst. At the same time there isn't an outright agreement on if the mechanic is unbalanced inherently, has problematic abusers (whether Tera pushes them high like Roaring Moon or simply adds to an OP kit like Bundle), or could be a fair mechanic that is simply too hard to judge fairly in the volatile early period of the game.
The comparison to Aegislash I mentioned comes up because I got the similar impression that, while the mon was S-Rank and HEAVILY impactful (dictating coverage choices on several attackers and heavily limiting certain types like Psychic and Fairy that struggled with it), there was a lot of discussion about if its centralizing effect was itself worthy of the mon being banned when it did a lot but didn't exactly do so in easy use (compared to Quick Bans like Fluttermane for example being "get me on field and win game"). It kind of brought some discussion about how the Suspect candidates were being approached and what was the aim of the Metagame by testing them, as Aegislash centered the game on itself heavily but didn't necessarily remove skill from the match on a micro or macro level the way we think of most problem mons.
Of course Aegislash was one mon, Terastalizing is a mechanic available to literally everything, so it casts a much wider net by default to remove it. In light of this point in particular, I think Terastalize at large should wait on action until we've had both time and evaluated a few of the abusers to see if the new ones popping up after continue to be unhealthy
If this become to much, dark terra unaware mons gonna be the rule after palafin ban.
I think Anhilape and Rage Fist are the best antistall tactic rn. Rage Fist boost ignore Unaware like Stored Power does. Plus STAB Drain Punch make you think twice going terra-normal
Hard disagree on Semi-stall/balance being completely pushed out of the metagame. I also don't think you need to run a unaware mon (not that it's a major problem considering that they're pretty useful), i find that defensive terastal is usually enough to deal with most common threats, though you have to get a little creative to deal with certain stuff. The main advantage over pure stall is that you get to run mons like Palafin, Roaring Moon or Bundle that can autowin games on their own, and that's enough to make semi-stall/balance viable imo.
If anything, a tera ban will make Bundle even more pressuring on teams, since most mons that can actually answer it (Blissey, Sylveon, Florges) are otherwise a lot less viable than the current common SpDef walls (Pex, Amoonguss, Slowking, Clodsire, Dondozo). Right now the best answer to Bundle is Water Absorb Clodsire with a non-ice weak tera type. Though it does force Clodsire to give up unaware which is the better of the 2 abilities rn (imo), it means you don't have to go out of your way to answer Bundle in the builder thanks to Tera. Because Clod is a great mon with tons of utility, whereas all the other answers are either AV users or massive momentum drains.
Obviously you're going to have to give up an offensive tera for this, which is also a bit sus, but yeah.
I haven't had the chance to play enough (and I'm not good enough) to hold strong opinions, but I did notice that Iron Bundle is holding down many potential Palafin answers, and it might be worth giving Palafin a chance when bulky waters can thrive without facing STAB Freeze Dry, off giant SpAtk, from the most min in the meta.
just got my ass rocked by a boomburst palafin. this shit is crazy
anyway to make it not a one liner, I know everyone loves Clodsire rn, myself included, but I do actually think Quagsire has some merit. Mainly, I've seen plenty of people offer Clod as a Palafin counter, but this is not the case imo. There's a couple things Quag has over Clod in this regard:
anyway to make it not a one liner, I know everyone loves Clodsire rn, myself included, but I do actually think Quagsire has some merit. Mainly, I've seen plenty of people offer Clod as a Palafin counter, but this is not the case imo. There's a couple things Quag has over Clod in this regard:
- No weakness to Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, or Jet Punch (if you aren't running Water Absorb, and I do think you should not be - Unaware is a lot better in a lot more situations, including versus setup Palafin).
- Better Defense and Attack. The second one in particular allows you to EQ Taunt Palafin and do more actual work in squishing it up.
- Slightly faster. This one doesn't matter at all
Palafin is all manner of ridiculous. The BU set with jet punch is really strong. I have won a few games I had no business of winning by just bringing in citizen form, swapping out to sac something and just spamming jet/drain punch for game. The most consistent check I have had against it has been my own Palafin.
Admittedly most of my teams are slapping together 6 mons or sets I want to try with no real rhyme or reason, but Palafin is a strong strong fish that, at present, should go hang out with the fluffy ghost and doggo ghost.
Admittedly most of my teams are slapping together 6 mons or sets I want to try with no real rhyme or reason, but Palafin is a strong strong fish that, at present, should go hang out with the fluffy ghost and doggo ghost.
Mostly priority spam. Scizor and Breloom are the best for it, IMO. Plus, Scizor has that ice resist. Breloom can Tera Fighting to lose the grass type and live an Ice Shard. You don't lose much from Tera Fighting Brelloom because double STAB technician Mach Punch hurts a lot of the meta right now.
Before Flutter Mane was banned, I actually used a Curse Muk set with shadow sneak set to switch into it and threaten it. I had Black Sludge, but it may have been smarter to run Leftovers for the rare times when I would Tera Flying.
Talonflame. I don't see many other people talking about a pokemon that can spam double STAB priority moves with over 100 BP like Hurricane or Acrobatics. It's also a rare a defogger that threatens Gholdengo, which is niche but works on certain teams.
Cyclizar. Can be beaten by things like fast or prankster taunt, priority spam, or an Infiltrator pokemon like Dragapult. I don't think it would even be OU if not for Shed Tail, and even that I find to be highly overrated.
Not really. I tried it's signature move Lumina Crash because I thought it would be good, but it lack a bit of immediate power. Espathra can't really afford to not 1HKO with it's relative lack of bulk. It does have a good HP stat, though, so maybe someone can find a way to make a bulkier set work. Other than that, the talk I've seen around stored power for the offensive set sounds more viable even though I haven't personally tried it.
Re: Discussion on bans.
I believe that once the ladder has been fully updated to have accurate Gen 9 mechanics and sprites that we should hold off on bans.
Once that is active I definitely believe Palafin should be banned because it's literally just too easy to win with and so damn powerful. I have misplayed the entire game in both SV OU and NatDex OU and still won because Scarf Shed Tail into Hero Palafin just wrecks house. It's bulk up set is too powerful for most mons that aren't Clodsire or Dodonzo. I love my Aquaman Pokémon but this shit needs to go to Ubers.
As for Iron Bundle I do believe that it's probably ban worthy but I'd like to see it have more time. It's specs Ice Beam chunks resists so fucking hard and it's speed is phenomenal but something about it just feels lacking. It probably should be banned but I think once Showdown is fully updated Palafin should be banned first.
Also once these 2 are gone I think Cyclizar will be more manageable because the threats it enables will be less powerful and oppressive.
I believe that once the ladder has been fully updated to have accurate Gen 9 mechanics and sprites that we should hold off on bans.
Once that is active I definitely believe Palafin should be banned because it's literally just too easy to win with and so damn powerful. I have misplayed the entire game in both SV OU and NatDex OU and still won because Scarf Shed Tail into Hero Palafin just wrecks house. It's bulk up set is too powerful for most mons that aren't Clodsire or Dodonzo. I love my Aquaman Pokémon but this shit needs to go to Ubers.
As for Iron Bundle I do believe that it's probably ban worthy but I'd like to see it have more time. It's specs Ice Beam chunks resists so fucking hard and it's speed is phenomenal but something about it just feels lacking. It probably should be banned but I think once Showdown is fully updated Palafin should be banned first.
Also once these 2 are gone I think Cyclizar will be more manageable because the threats it enables will be less powerful and oppressive.
Sorprise sorprise Water slaking with a priority is boosted af
Speaking of bans. Unaware adds variety, not less variety. And that is what most people want, more variety. Instead of just who ever spams dragon dance, swords dance 1st wins. RNG, or luck while isnt broken. Its just not many people want to win or lose to something that is pure luck, like moody. Sure you can beat moody, but watching moody vs moody and just losing to complete randomness makes you feel like you only lost to luck instead of actually skill. Terastalize would get banned not cause its broken, but its pure rng factor, terastalize vs terastalize, and just losing cause of the randomness, instead of skill.
Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Play Rough
- Superpower
- Aqua Jet
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. -1 252 HP / 144+ SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 304-358 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- Not a KO after Stealth Rock
-1 SpD approximates the effect of beads of ruin because it's not coded into the calc yet. In practice, it actually makes the hit seem stronger than it really is, but there is no other option for the time being.
This Azumarill set I've been using lately allows you to live two hits from fire-terracristallized Chi-Yu's overheat even with rocks up and to kill it back, so you can almost always switch in to it and force it out (or kill it). With SR support, it allows you to put some pressure on Chi-Yu and keep it out. It's also pretty serviceable as a general blanket check for special attackers, as Water/Fairy is a fairly good defensive typing. It's able to eat two freeze-drys from Iron Bundle pretty comfortably even after rocks, and thanks to the attack investment, has a good chance of koing back with superpower into aqua jet.
252 SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
112 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 214-254 (84.5 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (idk why it says that when its not but whatever calc lol)
-1 112 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 18-21 (7.1 - 8.3%)
Although I will say it's crazy that we have to go so far to counter this thing. I think Chi-Yu might need to go on the radar as well, because it feels like a better Tapu Lele, which was already an overwhelming offensive presence in gen 8 OU, a gen that had more defensive options than we have in current gen 9 meta. Beads of ruin is essentially a Psychic Terrain that works for all types as lowering enemy spdef by 25% feels very comparable in term of damage amplification to boosting psychic type moves by 33%. It's also effectively better versus pokemon with big spdef and doesn't have a time limit attached to it.
Just like Lele, Chi-Yu can effectively run either specs or scarf, and guessing which one it is wrong will usually cost you at least one mon, if not more.
Dark/Fire is also a double stab combo that is, in my opinion, better than Fairy/Psychic, as the former isn't resisted by any mono-type (and only resisted by Azumarill and Quaquaval) while the latter is resisted by Steel. It's also important to note that Dark/Fire hits 6 types super effectively, while Fairy/Psychic only does so against 4 types.
Finally; and probably most importantly, Chi-Yu, although not faster than Lele by much, has a much better speed tier, being able to hit the classic "good speed tier benchmark" of 328 with a timid nature.
In my opinion, all of this warrants for Chi-Yu to at least be considered for a possible ban.
(BONUS for those who read this long post in its entirety: Tera-Electric sandaconda sweeping. I wasn't using the goated azu spread yet, so it lost to gholdengo which was pretty disappointing.)
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Common Finch W, #PalafinL
So I'm not one to post much, if at all really, but I need the world to know about 2 new pokemon that have been some of my absolute favorites so far this gen:
Goodest Boy (Dachsbun) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Roar
- Wish
- Protect
This set has been a godsend for my hazard stack teams. If the opponent can't get your hazards off the field (thanks to Gholdengo), this pupper will roar everything around like it's gen2 and keep itself healthy in the process, not to mention it can take hits from some of the metas top mons, namely the dragons. Steel tera is great to finish off teams if they have nothing to hit steels besides fire, because this dogs body press gets double as strong when they go for it! Pair this with Gholdengo and a Scizor to bait those fire moves!
THE DON (Dondozo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Press/Soak
- Rest/Whirpool
- Curse
- Crunch/Terablast
Now THIS is my favorite set so far this gen. I have cleaned up many games with BP/Crunch and my absolute favorite Soak/TeraGrass set. Electric and other grasses who may think they have you beat have no idea what's about to happen. Amoongus wants to spore you? Nah that aint it. Now Amoongus is a water type and now he's gone from terablast. Anyone higher ladder this set really doesn't work as they can just switch back out, but in 1v1's it's pretty much uncounterable if you set yourself up the right way. If this mon gains whirpool when home comes out, watch out for this trap set.
Goodest Boy (Dachsbun) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Roar
- Wish
- Protect
This set has been a godsend for my hazard stack teams. If the opponent can't get your hazards off the field (thanks to Gholdengo), this pupper will roar everything around like it's gen2 and keep itself healthy in the process, not to mention it can take hits from some of the metas top mons, namely the dragons. Steel tera is great to finish off teams if they have nothing to hit steels besides fire, because this dogs body press gets double as strong when they go for it! Pair this with Gholdengo and a Scizor to bait those fire moves!
THE DON (Dondozo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Press/Soak
- Rest/Whirpool
- Curse
- Crunch/Terablast
Now THIS is my favorite set so far this gen. I have cleaned up many games with BP/Crunch and my absolute favorite Soak/TeraGrass set. Electric and other grasses who may think they have you beat have no idea what's about to happen. Amoongus wants to spore you? Nah that aint it. Now Amoongus is a water type and now he's gone from terablast. Anyone higher ladder this set really doesn't work as they can just switch back out, but in 1v1's it's pretty much uncounterable if you set yourself up the right way. If this mon gains whirpool when home comes out, watch out for this trap set.
AV regular thick fat hariyama can similarly work lol, having to run hariyama is similarly bad though.
1. I think having tapu lele like mons in a meta is good. However it is possible that chi-yu is too good at that job. Currently undecided whether that consistutes it as banworthy in my opinion but I could see it being banned.
2. At least right now, the speed creep in the new gen has the 100 speed tier feeling worse than the 95 speed tier did in gen 8. This will become a better speed tier with bundle (and palafin) banned.
3. A few aspects of lele do give it benefits over chi-yu that weren’t mentioned. Lele having psyshock is huge meaning stuff like blissey and glowking couldn’t wall it. Psychic terrain also does a lot more than just the damage boost, it shuts off priority revenge killing which limits the ability to revenge it far more than chi-yu.
I'm very new to the competitive scene but is it good to have a couple Pokemon with the Unaware ability in the same team or do you only need one? Also if Clodsire works well with Skeledirge then what terra do you recommend for Skeledirge?
I agree with this take. I think that Iron Bundle should be banned, and then palafin should be tested, in that order.
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