Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[1LDK]

In my personal opinion, there should not be any more quickbans for the time being, it seems that most of the broken mons are broken and the ones left can be more accounted for, instead of praying to survive assault after assault, so ill give my 2 cents on the things left

is as fast as Flutter mane and its a better weavile all around, i havent seen too much of these now, first day was broken, idk how broken is now tho

I havent been following the convo about this thing too hard but it seems that rage fist was bad coded and made it so that you could get boost by virtually anything, making it very easy to archieve max power and sweep, but once its fixed, its still gonna be strong but now you will be able to stall it out if your team does not have enough power

Tera: Honestly, i dont think its that bad, sure you´ll get fucked every once in a while, but more often than not, its gonna save your match, it also kinda frees a slot for better hidden power, and lets you lure in and counter mons like hidden power would, meaning you have some room for creativity on the team builder, also, different typing means different counters, and your risking future trades, so in a way, it promotes strategy for the long game on offensive teams but does not slow them down, because they will have a ton of free options. but my original standpoint on this matter, which is "No QuickBan, Suspect test it AFTER the tournament has ended" (I would have loved it to participate even if get my ass kicked first round, too bad real life work does not wai)

I have not used him yet but i have fought a ton of them, in my opinion, he is not broken, yes Good as Gold is basically a mix beetween Wonder Guard and Magic Guard and yes, it single handely kills corv´s viability and yes, Make it rain is broken, but i wanna see how it handles rapid spinners (viabale popular ones of course) first, its countered by the 2 new donphans, past and future, Torkoal just incinerates him, but torkoal would rather use other options instead of spin, Tsareena, who is fringe yes, and does not handle Gholdengo at all, but its inmune to priority, and in a metagame where theres a lot of them, she could still have a niche, Toadscruel can spore him, has Knock Off, Foul Play and some cool utility options and the defensive capabilitys to tanking him, Cyclizar can use spin and has knock off and fire fang for him but does not have the bulk for dengo, and nobody uses Cyclizar for attacking anyways lmao, Quacaval can use rapid spin but gets walled so he is not viable... and then theres fortress.... has anybody seen one? unironically this could be the chance he needs to come back to OU, a meta with a billlion hazards and no defog, but this is just theorymoning

Outside of rapid spins, your best bet is brawl with him, and here is where some good news come, its kinda slow at 293, scarf means no recover, he has some sets and variety but just scout him little by little before hand, and then you have to lure it, maybe by double switching, maybe by tera fire some food for him, or just get his teammates first, so that he has less places to hide, so what im trying to say its that, we can use the tools we have to still brute force him

like some guy said early, reject modernity, return to claydoll (or fortress in this case)

 

[G-Luke]

Grimm definitely needs to be looked at. Prankster Screens + Parting Shot is not OK and was never OK. It virtually guarantees both screens by merit of moving first, which is honestly fine in and of itself—it did the same thing last gen and so did Regieleki sometimes—but having a priority move that also gives your opponent -1 and switches out is absurd. Dark-types prevent it from Parting Shotting, sure, but a lot of them lose to Grimm anyway because it gets Fairy STAB and it’s fat enough to 1v1 damn near any behind screens.

Gholdengo should probably be looked at as well, but I maintain that banning it won’t accomplish much because the real problem is a lack of viable Defoggers—the current climate of the meta is still very unfriendly to Scizor and Corviknight, both of which are weak to Fire, the type that just had its two biggest answers removed. Come to think of it, the lack of viable Defoggers can also explain the prevalence of Grimmsnarl’s no-brain screen nonsense. If these two go, they need to be retested if more Defoggers are ever introduced into the meta.

Glimmora is, in my opinion, honestly fine. There are a lot of other hazard setters that people are using too—I’m increasingly seeing Ting-Lu and Clodsire as Spikes setters. I can only imagine that Glimmora’s usage will plummet when Home comes back and Lando-T is reintroduced anyway.

Outside of Gholdengo, this kinda sounds silly as hell. Grimmsnarl that runs PShot over say Spirit Break has to be content with Dark types somehow eating all of it's momentum, completely flipping it on it's head. If it doesn't drop Sprit Break, it has to drop Taunt or T Wave, making it's matchup versus other leads a lot worse. Grimmsnarl itself does not need to be looked at, it's not even the worst part of HO

 

[Finchinator]

Another big news day lies ahead for SV OU methinks.

 

[Piplz]

Personally, regardless of arguments towards banning tera, banning X mon or not banning them, etc...

One element that I haven't seen mentioned at all yet is the fact that bugs keep being found every day (see: Annihilape and passive damage, Protosynth 50->30% etc) and not even everything is implemented yet, most importantly Revival Blessing which made a lot of people freak out when initially leaked.

I am not a big fan of making large, sweeping changes to a metagame while things aren't even complete or accurate yet. Not disagreeing with the quickbans as I think those would be coming regardless and I don't think there was much controversy about them (maybe a little bit about Bundle, other 3 were straightforward), but any talk of tera, ape, or anything remotely controversial at all is imo off the charts as long as we haven't reached a proper stable state of how things should work.

 

[Finchinator]

Personally, regardless of arguments towards banning tera, banning X mon or not banning them, etc...

One element that I haven't seen mentioned at all yet is the fact that bugs keep being found every day (see: Annihilape and passive damage, Protosynth 50->30% etc) and not even everything is implemented yet, most importantly Revival Blessing which made a lot of people freak out when initially leaked.

I am not a big fan of making large, sweeping changes to a metagame while things aren't even complete or accurate yet. Not disagreeing with the quickbans as I think those would be coming regardless and I don't think there was much controversy about them (maybe a little bit about Bundle, other 3 were straightforward), but any talk of tera, ape, or anything remotely controversial at all is imo off the charts as long as we haven't reached a proper stable state of how things should work.

It’s tough because every generation is technically a WIP.

RBY and ADV had major mechanical discoveries 15 years after the fact with Body Slam paralysis prospects and Sleep Talk sleep turn counters changing upon people happening to notice it was implemented wrong many, many years after the generation was even the main one. And these things shifted those OU metagames quite a bit.

At the end of the day, we are never 100% sure about everything, but we are very confident in our PS development and that we are as close to as possible to perfect as can be. And seeing as they worked so hard to make our metagame playable this early, it’s only fair that we treat it like a true metagame and tier it.

We did avoid banning the Ape in part due to people wanting more time in light of the new mechanic, so there are some reservations, but ultimately we do not want it to stall the entire process for everything

 

[Divine Retribution]

Can you please stop being an asshole to people you disagree with? I don't even disagree with most things you say but I still genuinely dislike reading anything from you due to how you talk with people

You seem to have a persistent habit of "calling out" people who get frustrated with bad-faith arguments and not... bad-faith arguments. What's up with that? If you have an issue with a post, report it and move on instead of derailing the thread.

It's well known by now that if you ban something it doesn't necessarily open up a new more diverse meta, you just create a new strongest thing.

The point of tiering philosophy is not and should not be primarily to create a diverse metagame, it is to create a balanced metagame first and foremost. I don't even care to argue about whether or not things like Palafin and Flutter Mane actually suppress diversity by forcing a dwindling number of Pokemon onto every team to deal with them (they do, but that's beside the point), this idea that we need to put metagame diversity above metagame balance is antithetical to the concept of a competitive metagame in the first place.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

With the recent bans, I feel like Dragapult deserves a lot more attention. I know some people have mentioned it in the thread, but it cannot be overstated how good it is at just killing things. Specs is still great, like always, but I've been having a lot of fun with ddance/tera ghost + tera blast. Fixes the needing to use phantom force issue, and people aren't always prepared for the combo of dragon + double stab ghost. (Although Annihilape surging in use might inadvertantly hurt phys Dragapult as people prepare more for that.)

Dragapult definitely ain't broken but it sure is good

 

[Outhman]

For now i'm a bit content with how we dealt with the speedcreep, since 2 among them were hitting 405+ spd and one had sandrush, i feel i can settle with less priority moves than before due to that since it's basically just Chien and Pult left

 

[its_nsb]

I mean if you're gonna talk about high rating players using non palafin teams, I'm one of them. I peaked around 1600 with this team. Every single decent team I played was using either palafin or bundle or both. And as I got higher I noticed that almost every team was built like mine. Blissey + Gholdengo + hazzard stack + a dedicated palafin counter + win condition + extra defensive piece or another win condition. People had enough time to play with bundle and palafin to all come to the same general team build. The meta, at those higher levels, had settled.

https://pokepast.es/e83f87ace1172652

Right my team was just like that blissey for bundle and amoongus and dondozo for palafin then chi-yu as a win con and ting lu for stealth rocks wonder how drastically teambuilding will change with those two presences gone....

 

[BolTingBlazie]

How's Quaquaval right now, since it benefits hugely from Palafin-H's ban?

Seems like a very good cleaner once you create openings for it!

 

[Lioninjawarloc]

New mons should not be banned without a community vote this early on in the meta :)

 

[Perish Song]

New mons should not be banned without a community vote this early on in the meta :)

Statistics suggests that if there was a community vote, everything that was banned up until this point would end up banned. Its not like there was a major conflict between two sides that the community opinion was 50-50. At this point waiting more to suspect test things is effectively wasting time. Mind I remind you we also have SPL right around the corner.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Hey Finchinator , have there been talks about suspecting shed tail instead of cyclizar? I feel like Shed Tail is uncompetitive, not cyclizar or orthworm themselves as its basically a free setup opportunity for name snowballing meta threat here... I feel like the rise of Quaquaval now that palafin-h is banned will only make this problem with shed tail worse...

Also looking forward to the tera suspect!

 

[ChibiNyan]

We banned Palafin. Palafin's checks where all bulky Pokemon like Amoonguss, which largely fit on stall (and balance).
We banned Iron Bundle. Iron Bundle's primary checks where Pokemon like Blissey, which only fits on stall.

If anything, we are legislating the metagame to be more offensive and proactive as we ban things that do not have sufficient offensive counterplay, which is a symptom of being broken/banworthy. Perhaps the system is working just fine and you are mad for the sake of being mad.

As a stall player from day 1: Making a team was just adding checks & counters to those 4 banned mons. Blissey (with shadow bal), Amoonguss, Unaware Mons... That team type managed just fine! So I agree that it's offensive teams that were being oppressed the most by those threats. Easy 6-0s if the matchup wasn't right.

Don't wanna say that stall wasn't helped by the bans though. Team-building options are opening up now that Blissey and Amogus are not mandatory anymore.

 

[Negative Charge]

Are there any middle ground options like announcing Tera types at team preview that can be reached? Ubers tried something similar last gen with the Dynamax banlist for a bit.

 

[Porygon2Bandit]

New mons should not be banned without a community vote this early on in the meta :)

Also the community is a bunch of apes.

Signed, the community.

Realistically we run quick bans and expect the council to do the heavy lifting early because there's multiple mons that need actions/decisions immediately and a suspect test is a very long process. Imagine if we were in a suspect test not even having cleared Flutter Mane off the list yet. If you want to circumvent suspect tests, can you trust everyone in this thread to actively know the meta/engage with it faithfully to improve it rather than just benefit their own team/favorite mons? Nah, so you'd end up only using trusted members, and basically land yourself back at this process.

 

[Bakugames]

If you don’t mind me asking, what is the bulky set spread for glimmora? Please and thank you :)

Here's the one I use

Janitor (Glimmora) @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Lax Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Earth Power
- Mortal Spin

You can run tspikes over one of the hazard moves if you want guarantee of having tspikes on the field vs a special mon, but I just recommend using glim for physical mons anyway.
Earth power is to chip gholdengo, tera ground is just if you don't want to get exploded over make it rain + boost ur earth power. has a decent matchup vs the donphans too. Shouldn't be clicking tera w this thing tho.

I'm not the best player so take this w a grain of salt, but it's been working just fine for me

 

[Msousagamer]

Also the community is a bunch of apes.

Signed, the community.

Realistically we run quick bans and expect the council to do the heavy lifting early because there's multiple mons that need actions/decisions immediately and a suspect test is a very long process. Imagine if we were in a suspect test not even having cleared Flutter Mane off the list yet. If you want to circumvent suspect tests, can you trust everyone in this thread to actively know the meta/engage with it faithfully to improve it rather than just benefit their own team/favorite mons? Nah, so you'd end up only using trusted members, and basically land yourself back at this process.

That's why there's a way to prove ur good at the game and know what ur doing tbh, otherwise tests would just be a public vote.

 

[tigers jaw]

no there are many obviously overwhelming things atm, and we're nowhere near a stable enough meta for suspects to take place. plus, tera overshadows everything atm, so until it's gone, we won't really be able to determine what is/is not broken etc.

don't do suspects until at least tera/goldielocks/shed tail ban

then suspect pao (i would even prefer a qb on this because those who think it isn't gonna be banned eventually r huffing hopium), followed by yu, then either booster energy or roaring moon if it continues to be too strong by then

 

[its_nsb]

bro honestly annihilape is not that crazy without terra

 

[DaemonChop]

Idk guys, you're being too hasty. There's really no good way of knowing if 135 base speed perfect coverage mcgee or Slaking with better Aqua Jet and no Truant is broken!

Scizor is really really.good now. I've been using a Swords Dance Leftovers set with Bullet Punch, Close Combat, and U-Turn and its just pivot incarnate with a bit of sweeper mixed in. Once you get off a single swords dance, bullet punch becomes very dangerous.

 

[amberturdz]

More like to make stall survive at all cost because that's the only kind of play the members of the Small Council love
Toxapex has been insufferable and overcentralizing in both Gen 7 and Gen 8 and yet was never banned.....curious

As much as people dont like stall it adds more variety. Its like going into a store and all you want is a energy drink and not soda, but all they have is soda, and everyone is drinking the same brand of soda. As much as people dont like stall there were ways that could counter it like mega mawile, mega gyarados with sub, mold breaker, and huge power. Now it seems people only want to spam rocks, spam dragon dance or spam swords dance and win and have no counters. Even if you like that, thats not really much variety, everyone just doing the same exact thing every game. And then people cry about toxapex, but it had enough counters from it being completely broken.

 

[Finchinator]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/palafin-and-iron-bundle-are-banned-from-sv-ou.3711440/

Palafin and Iron Bundle are now banned

Here is my video on the topic if you prefer spoken thought or a longer-form explanation.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

As someone who plays pet mods far more than OU, I just wanna say that I am extremely grateful that OU council has been very deliberate with their quickbans this gen. I’ve seen far too many metas become borderline unplayable because the people in charge of them decided to just ‘sit and wait until the meta settles’ on mons that were objectively broken, would never be healthy, and from a pet mods perspective heavily warped future submissions to the mod in a very negative way. With that experience in mind, I’ll very often find myself saying ‘I won’t be playing X tier until action is taken on Y or Z’, and that also applies to OU this gen. However, every time this gen that I’ve done that, council has announced quickbans that alleviate that feeling within a few days, which has made playing this much more enjoyable.

On that note, Gholdengo suspect when?? :)

 

[Piplz]

It’s tough because every generation is technically a WIP.

RBY and ADV had major mechanical discoveries 15 years after the fact with Body Slam paralysis prospects and Sleep Talk sleep turn counters changing upon people happening to notice it was implemented wrong many, many years after the generation was even the main one. And these things shifted those OU metagames quite a bit.

At the end of the day, we are never 100% sure about everything, but we are very confident in our PS development and that we are as close to as possible to perfect as can be. And seeing as they worked so hard to make our metagame playable this early, it’s only fair that we treat it like a true metagame and tier it.

We did avoid banning the Ape in part due to people wanting more time in light of the new mechanic, so there are some reservations, but ultimately we do not want it to stall the entire process for everything

Yeah, I can see the opposite side of the argument and I think there's some merit to it too. People still find new glitches even in decades old games like mario n64 or w/e, let alone a brand new generation of pokemon being reverse engineered. It's bound to have issues and you can't let that halt everything else or stop you from processing as normal.

Personally I think I draw the arbitrary line at Revival Blessing being implemented because I think it can actually make quite a few waves on the meta. Nothing ground shaking, but Pawmot is not quite a Pachirisu-tier irrelevant shitmon and Blessing might very well change the relationship between certain pokemon and their checks/counters, on top of whatever a heightened presence of a fast physical electric mon might introduce.

either way, this was not meant as a critic towards you or what's been done so far at all, and I have full faith you're doing the correct thing so far; t'was more towards people who seem to have unshakeable opinions by day 10 of a new gen still riddled with uncertainty.