Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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ngl, in my time on the ladder (around 300+ games over the last 2 weeks) I haven't actually seen thaaaat many Espathra. I think it has fallen off now that people have learned how to respond to it. In all those games played I've maybe been swept by it like once, and even then it was probably just cause I was playing like a dum dum.
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Agree with this, I don't see why a lot of people say that Espathra is a huge threat, it needs screen, shed tail and like 4 free turns to set up in order to sweep and even with that it loses to priority.
 
Agree with this, I don't see why a lot of people say that Espathra is a huge threat, it needs screen, shed tail and like 4 free turns to set up in order to sweep and even with that it loses to priority.
It doesn't NEED shed tail. It just makes it much easier to set up. Through standard bulk investment it gets to set up on a ton of stuff you wouldn't expect, especially with screens support. Like a -2 dragapult or scarf chi-yu lets it come in after an ally dies and start boosting and without specific measures, it can snowball fairly quickly and easily.
 
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It doesn't NEED shed tail. It just makes it much easier to set up. Through standard bulk investment it gets to set up on a ton of stuff you wouldn't expect, especially with screens support. Like a -2 dragapult or scarf chi-yu lets it come in after an ally dies and start boosting and without specific measures, it can snowball fairly quickly and easily.
Yeah, but even then stuff like Dragonite feels more threating with less turns of set up/favorable conditions.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
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Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Shadow Ball​
Nobody tell him that Sylveon hard counters the set

Okay but :Azumarill: went to OU, whats the niche? checking Chi yu? Sweeps? Wallbreaking? Cuteness? all of the above?
 

Finchinator

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Suspect test ends in 35 minutes or so, yeah? So... when can we ban Chi-Yu? Those go-getters on the UU Council already gave Espathra the boot
False equivalency. They had this vote ready for eternity because they could not act for the last month due to being unofficial until usage came out today. We have not even had our vote begin and we do not even know what the result is.

let's be patient and let the process work its way. we acted quickly on the initial QBs and there's no reason to suddenly be up in arms.
 

awyp

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So I just got reqs (lost 1 game the entire run cus of tera) and I have a couple of thoughts before I vote to Outright Ban

Tera right now in it's current state is quite unpredictable and the timing of it is game changing. Currently if Tera doesn't get banned outright there will be Pokémon that will have to be potentially banned (undeservingly so). This is because certain Pokémon in combination with Tera just become broken straight up (Annihilape, Garganacl, Kingambit) all these mons are not deserving of getting banned but if they keep getting abused with Tera they're definitely getting suspect tested in the future. Restrictions I don't think will fix this problem because the absence of Tera won't force a lot of these Pokémon to get suspect tested in the first place (That I listed above).

Aside from Tera, it's good riddance to my fishy friend (Chi-Yu, I'll miss you see you in Ubers).
 

Finchinator

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It seems as least mildly equivalent, since OU was also in a state of inaction for ~3 weeks or so thanks to the ongoing suspect test. But in any case I look forward to Chi-Yu's departure from the tier, whenever that may come
Considering the fact that I have said over literally dozens of posts that it’ll be voted on after the suspect vote is over and the suspect vote hasn’t even begun — leaving us still in a period of inaction, perhaps you just have unrealistic expectations of volunteers and our process, and you should wait a few days~
 
META HOT TAKES:

I feel like the Smogon equivalent of “go touch grass” to people that are chronically online is like “Go play high ladder” to people who only lurk on the forums. To all you forum lurkers, I see you, I feel you, and I got you. That was me a few years ago. So here’s my list of takeaways from getting suspect reqs:

:Cinderace: Cinderace meh
Don’t get me wrong - without a shadow of a doubt, this mon is good and undeniably has a place in OU. However its offensive capabilities are just not enough to be a threat with so many monsters running around rn. Court change and will-o-wisp are both incredibly valuable and annoying on it, especially with that speed. It’s no longer the offensive monster who can tear through teams like last gen - a combination of power creep, protean nerf, and the introduction of some REALLY strong counters like Dondozo, Garganacle, Great Tusk, Skeledirge, and Clodsire make life very difficult for this mon. As good as a fast WoW sounds, half of these guys don’t care all that much about being burnt/ can’t be burnt at all, making it a bit less useful. Still good, but it’s far from the S tier threat imo (at least as of rn!) and it certainly does not destroy hazard stacking. It does provide a really solid way to deter hazardz while also being an answer to gholdengo, but it’s not at all a silver bullet.

:Gholdengo: Gholdengo good
Oh hey this things pretty good. It’s undeniably strong, but fairly predictable. Never felt all that unmanageable, but always put in work, solid 8/10. Fighting is the best tera type offensively, flying is the best tera type defensively.

:Ting Lu: Ting Lu Exceptional
This is imo the best defensive mon in the tier. INCREDIBLE bulk, rocks, spikes, phasing, guaranteed 1/2 damage to any target, and a respectably strong earthquake? Absolutely phenomenal. There’s not really any such thing as a “bad user of tera,” but this mon doesn’t really need it all that much.

:Espathra: Espathra good but people use it wrong
This thing is better than people in this thread think but that’s because the sets most people use are bad. Run max Hp/max phys def under screens w/lefties and tera fighting, not tera fairy. CM, Sub, Stored Power, and T Blast? Absolutely cracked. Everyone thinks you’re tera fairy w/ dazzling gleam, but that sets not as good at all. Requires a pretty good amount of support, but provides very strong results.

:Annihilape: Annihilape still good
This things such a menace, but people know what to do with it a bit more now, but that doesn’t change how threatening this thing is as a whole. Rest, Bull Up, Drain Punch, Rage Fist is still its best set imo, but Taunt, Final Gambit, Rocks, and even Scarf are all viable options (arranged in descending order of viability imo)

:Scizor: Banded Scizor amazing
This thing’s so so so good please use it with tera steel BULLET PUNCH KABAM

:Ceruledge: Ceruledge is cracked
Don’t listen to the haters this guys amazing. Tera Bug w/ Flash Fire basically hard counters sun, and finds a chance to set up on TONS of stuff - Tusk, Volcarona, Torkoal, and lots of other odds and ends around the meta. Lots of other useful and cool sets like endure + weakness policy + weak armor can work too but need more support, and aren’t always as guaranteed to pull off some easy wins. It’s fairly matchup dependent, and often relies heavily on tera, but it’s a fun pick that’s very under-prepared for in the current moment.

:Quaquaval: Quaquaval is the best anti-lead to Glimmora in the tier no contest

Turn 1: Quack vs Glimm get sent out as leads. Quack uses Aqua Step, bringing Glimm down to its sash and raising its speed, which sets up T Spikes through Toxic Debris as Glimm uses the turn to either attempt a KO with Energy Ball (it lives) or set up rocks/spikes
Turn 2: Quack uses Rapid Spin, activity TD again to set up a second T Spike layer, and then the hazard removal effect takes place, Glimm is KO’d, moxie activates, leaving Quack at +2 speed and +1 attack, with NO hazards on the field, and a dead Glimmora.

I have probably done this 2 dozen times, and this is how it plays out every single time without fail.

:Dondozo: :Garganacl: Defensive win cons are amazingly good! :Skeledirge: :Corviknight:

Curse Dondozo steamrolls teams that aren’t prepped for it, ID Garganacl is a MENACE, Torch Song Skeledirge can snowball through teams REAL quick, and ID Corv is very solid as well. These guys are super fun to use, and can set up some games while providing defensive utility in others. Very versatile!

:Chi Yu: Chi Yu
The fish is good people. I know everyone here is convinced it’s punching holes in Blissey left and right, which is a bit of an exaggeration, but it is a total fiend. Flame charge set is Underwhelming. Taunt + NP is good. Specs is great. Scarf is exceptional. I suspect there are some underutilized options for a NP Charcoal set that allows you to bluff specs on things like dragons and waters that switch in only to nail them with a Dark Pulse, but it likely won’t stick in the tier long enough to find out. I will say, the near guarantee of a choice item does make this thing much more manageable than you’d think, but c’mon. Nothing comes close to that raw power.

:Pawmot: :Rabsca: Revival Blessing Ok
Yeah it’s fine. Not game breaking like some people thought, being revived at 1/2 HP is not quite as high as you want it to be, but obviously playing with 7-8 mons is always fun.

:Iron Hands: Iron Hands good
This thing smacks. SD is an astonishingly strong wall breaker that can body Dondozo, Garganacl, Corviknight, and Ting Lu. Tera Flying is cracked. Defensively, it can emergency check a lot, especially with defensive investment or an AV, stuff like Chi Yu, Chien Pao, Gholdengo, or Kingambit all get beat 1v1.

That’s all I got friends. Lmk your meta hot takes from laddering :)
 
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:Ceruledge: Ceruledge is cracked
Don’t listen to the haters this guys amazing. Tera Bug w/ Flash Fire basically hard counters sun, and finds a chance to set up on TONS of stuff - Tusk, Volcarona, Torkoal, and lots of other odds and ends around the meta. Lots of other useful and cool sets like endure + weakness policy + weak armor can work too but need more support, and aren’t always as guaranteed to pull off some easy wins. It’s fairly matchup dependent, and often relies heavily on tera, but it’s a fun pick that’s very under-prepared for in the current moment.
I respectfully disagree. Tera bug is funny for catching a player who doesn't know about it, but anyone familiar with the set won't have much trouble playing around it. Counterplay to the set isn't hard to have just naturally which is compounded by Edge's own notable flaws (middling bulk and speed, and a lack of good ghost stab), and it struggles to get past bulky mons like Iron Hands and the unaware trio. Even something like Toxapex has little trouble staving it off, and stuff like Specs Valiant or BU+Taunt Annihilape do not struggle with it. It's a very overhyped set that is just not that great imo. Ceruledge as a whole is just a very niche Mon that I am shocked still is OU by usage.

About Quaq, technically this is though you can also do the same with the paradox donphans, and I personally think there are better things to be doing with Quaquaval than spinning with it right now since spinning sets kinda lack oomph.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
About Quaq, technically this is though you can also do the same with the paradox donphans, and I personally think there are better things to be doing with Quaquaval than spinning with it right now since spinning sets kinda lack oomph.
Yeah, Quaq doesn’t have as good of a matchup against Gholdengo as it’d like to, especially the Scarf Thunderbolt sets I’ve seen popping up. It certainly has the capability of beating Gholdengo if played correctly, but it can’t do it as well as the Donphans. If you want a spinner, just use Tusk or Treads; everything else that knows Rapid Spin should just stay in their lane.
 
Nobody tell him that Sylveon hard counters the set

Okay but :Azumarill: went to OU, whats the niche? checking Chi yu? Sweeps? Wallbreaking? Cuteness? all of the above?
Azumarill checks Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao in one slot, that's already quite impressive! ...And Quaquaval, most Cinderace, probably Slither Wing, happens to be a Fairy that Kingambit can't just tear open with Iron Head on the switch...

Azumarill also gets cuteness points, but for cute novelty, pretty much nothing is actually beating Clodsire there.
 
Cinderace meh
Don’t get me wrong - without a shadow of a doubt, this mon is good and undeniably has a place in OU. However its offensive capabilities are just not enough to be a threat with so many monsters running around rn. Court change and will-o-wisp are both incredibly valuable and annoying on it, especially with that speed. It’s no longer the offensive monster who can tear through teams like last gen - a combination of power creep, protean nerf, and the introduction of some REALLY strong counters like Dondozo, Garganacle, Great Tusk, Skeledirge, and Clodsire make life very difficult for this mon. As good as a fast WoW sounds, half of these guys don’t care all that much about being burnt/ can’t be burnt at all, making it a bit less useful. Still good, but it’s far from the S tier threat imo (at least as of rn!) and it certainly does not destroy hazard stacking. It does provide a really solid way to deter hazardz while also being an answer to gholdengo, but it’s not at all a silver bullet.
Chi-Yu is getting banned 100% so Cinderace will replace it on sun teams, not only pyro ball under sun is strong but the extra hazards removal is welcome in sun teams.
 
Annihilape is such a fair and honest Pokemon. I love having to setup to +6 with my Gholdengo on it despite it having a super effective move only for my Shadow Ball to deal 90% to Tera Water Annihilape while it uses Rage Fist to KO me back despite Tera'ing. Definitely a positive addition to the tier that makes games more varied and fun. And it has flaws like ....uhhhh, being hazard weak and having "middling" bulk.

+2 112 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 372-438 (87.7 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 338-402 (79.7 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 337-397 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seriously, its so easy to stop. Just hit it with a strong attack. Not being able to take two Iron Valiant Moonblast is such a big flaw. Oh yeah, and the likelihood of Defiant triggering when Gholdengo or Iron Valiant use Shadow Ball and Moonblast is really low so Rage fist shouldn't be KOing these mons hahaha. Having limited defensive Counterplay is whatever, stall sucks to fight so its a good thing that this mon gives those kind of teams a run for their money.

...In all seriousness, if Ape isn't on the initial QB list, I might start going monke myself (I already am tbh).
 
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